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nychief
01-03-2006, 09:59 PM
Grief, anger as all but one miner found dead
Initial reports indicated 12 had survived

Wednesday, January 4, 2006; Posted: 10:25 a.m. EST (15:25 GMT)
TALLMANSVILLE, West Virginia (CNN) -- For three hours overnight, families of a dozen trapped West Virginia miners thought their loved ones were coming home as church bells rang to welcome them.

But by 3 a.m. Wednesday -- as one critically ill survivor was rushed to a hospital -- families learned that their thankful jubilation was premature.

There had been a tragic "miscommunication," said mine company chief Ben Hatfield. Twelve of the 13 trapped miners had not made it. They were dead. (Watch angry relatives react -- 3:21)

Anna Casto, who lost her cousin, angrily disagreed with Hatfield's use of the term "miscommunication."

"No, he strictly told us they was alive," Casto said. "Three hours later he come back and said they wasn't."

"We want to know why, and how people can get by with this," she said.

"I just want that immediate family to get some kind of satisfaction, to get some kind of answers." (Full story)

Casto said the tragedy has shaken the faith of some in the community. "We have got some of us ... saying... that we don't even know if there is a Lord anymore," she said. "We had a miracle, and it was taken away from us."
3-hour delay

# 11:53 p.m. -- Church bells ring as reports first indicate that 12 miners have been found alive.

# 2:14 a.m. -- A man is rescued and taken to a nearby hospital in critical condition after being trapped underground for nearly 40 hours.

# 2:44 a.m. -- Miners' relatives say they had been told all but one of the miners were dead.

# 3:11 a.m. -- Hatfield, president and CEO of International Coal Group, which owns the Sago Mine, announces that despite previous reports, only one survivor was found in the mine. (Timeline)

Hatfield called it the "worst day of my life."
Critical condition

The sole survivor, Randal McCloy, 27, was in critical condition in intensive care Wednesday at Ruby Memorial Hospital in Morgantown.

"He suffered some collapse of one of his lungs," said Dr. Larry Roberts. "And we're trying to reopen that and there's good progress there."

Roberts said McCloy was sedated and attached to a breathing tube, but was moving and responding to stimuli.

"We hope that we will try to awaken him later today or tomorrow," the doctor said.
'Who do we tell?'

Hatfield said he knew within 20 minutes that an error had been made and that not all 12 were alive, but said he did not inform jubilant family members.

"We couldn't correct the information without knowing more about it," he told reporters. "Let's put this in perspective -- who do we tell not to celebrate? All I knew is, there weren't 12 people that were alive. It was somewhere between 12 and zero."

Hatfield said he understood family members' anger.

"I'm not surprised or upset with them. They certainly have some basis for their frustration, having been put through this emotional roller-coaster. I wouldn't wish that on anyone."

Hatfield said the miscommunication occurred between rescue crews and the command center, causing the earlier erroneous reports. (Watch the CEO's grim announcement -- 9:00)
Miners were alive after accident

Hatfield said it was apparent that the miners, who were found 13,000 feet into the mine, remained alive for a period of time following the explosion. They had built a "rough barricade structure," he said, and had donned their self-contained breathing apparatuses. The apparatuses held one hour of oxygen; Hatfield said he had no way of knowing how long the miners were alive.

The rescue team that found the miners was speaking to the command center over mine communication system on an open speaker audible to a number of people, Hatfield said. He noted the company made no formal announcement that the 12 were alive, but said he would not single out any rescuers, as they were trying to save the miners' lives.

"The honest answer is, we were devastated," he said. "It's sorrow beyond belief ... Welcome to the worst day of my life."
'Some wrong communications'

West Virginia Gov. Joe Manchin -- who flashed a thumbs-up on the steps of the church and said, "believe in miracles," after hearing the initial report that the 12 were alive -- called the situation "heart-wrenching." (Watch Gov. Manchin explain what may have caused the miscommunication -- 3:44)

He said he was in another room of the church with some family members when "we heard families in a euphoric state, and all the shouting and screaming and joyfulness." He asked what was happening, he said, and was told, "They found them. They're alive."

Manchin said he asked his communications people if they had confirmed that information, and they said no. But he was caught in the sea of jubilant relatives streaming out of the church, and the church bells began ringing, he said. He said he was "in a euphoric state, the same as they are."

It was about 20 minutes later, he said, when he also became aware of "some wrong communications." The delay in informing relatives, he said, came because officials were trying to get accurate information instead of adding to the confusion. He said he understood the family's pain, as his own uncle died in a 1968 mine accident.

"To put blame on anybody -- it's the wrong time, the wrong place," Manchin said. "Everybody has worked so hard. The rescue teams have worked around the clock. They've come from all over the country."

VonneMarie
01-03-2006, 10:01 PM
Oh, Thank God! :)

siberian khatru
01-03-2006, 10:01 PM
Unbelievable. Good for them.

Cochise
01-03-2006, 10:01 PM
Holy crap. From the news I heard this morning, it sounded like the worst. That's awesome.

joesomebody
01-03-2006, 10:02 PM
Thats great news. Are you sure it was reported? You'd think they'd only report it if it was found that they died horribly.

I'm very very glad to hear that they survived, just saying its rare to get good news from tv.

Mecca
01-03-2006, 10:02 PM
I didn't know anything about this.........shows you how much I pay attention to the news I guess.

nychief
01-03-2006, 10:02 PM
Thats great news. Are you sure it was reported? You'd think they'd only report it if it was found that they died horribly.

I'm very very glad to hear that they survived, just saying its rare to get good news from tv.


check it out yourself... also, al saunders has been named coach of the Lions.

dirk digler
01-03-2006, 10:03 PM
That is great news...

I am watching it now thanks for the heads up

Iowanian
01-03-2006, 10:06 PM
Thats almost unbelievable.

I thought with the explosion, and CO..they were dead for sure.

siberian khatru
01-03-2006, 10:08 PM
Nick Athan reports that one of the miners has been flown to KC to meet with Carl Peterson.

VonneMarie
01-03-2006, 10:09 PM
Nick Athan reports that one of the miners has been flown to KC to meet with Carl Peterson.
On Surtains private jet. ROFL

WilliamTheIrish
01-03-2006, 10:14 PM
Nick Athan reports that one of the miners has been flown to KC to meet with Carl Peterson.


Gawd DAMMMMN you!!


I wanted to break that story with the WPI angle.


Mutherf.... ROFL

ChiTown
01-03-2006, 10:20 PM
Nick Athan reports that one of the miners has been flown to KC to meet with Carl Peterson.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

ROFL

BucsGirl
01-03-2006, 10:34 PM
Thank God..he was looking out for them...AMEN

Douche Baggins
01-03-2006, 10:37 PM
Did any of them start eating each other?

nychief
01-03-2006, 10:38 PM
Did any of them start eating each other?

Is food all you think about ****face?





ROFL

John_Wayne
01-03-2006, 10:40 PM
cnn is live at the scene...
CNN?.........I won't believe it until I see it on Fox News. :p

dirk digler
01-03-2006, 10:41 PM
Nick Athan reports that one of the miners has been flown to KC to meet with Carl Peterson.

ROFL

He got it first...


ROFL

Douche Baggins
01-03-2006, 10:41 PM
Is food all you think about ****face?





ROFL

No, I also think about slitting your ass head to toe, jaw to jaw.

ENDelt260
01-03-2006, 10:42 PM
No, I also think about slitting your ass head to toe, jaw to jaw.
And then eating him?

nychief
01-03-2006, 10:42 PM
No, I also think about slitting your ass head to toe, jaw to jaw.

relax francis, I am just playing. chill with the columbine stuff alright?

VonneMarie
01-03-2006, 10:43 PM
ROFL

nychief
01-03-2006, 10:43 PM
And then eating him?
ROFL

Douche Baggins
01-03-2006, 10:44 PM
And then eating him?

Sure. Why let all that good meat go to waste?

John_Wayne
01-03-2006, 10:57 PM
CNN?.........I won't believe it until I see it on Fox News. :p

http://www.foxnews.com/

It's true.

PunkinDrublic
01-03-2006, 11:41 PM
I heard Rich Scanlon dug a seperate tunnel to where the miners were and one by one pulled them each to safety.

ferrarispider95
01-04-2006, 12:21 AM
I heard Rich Scanlon dug a seperate tunnel to where the miners were and one by one pulled them each to safety.
did he eat them?

Halfcan
01-04-2006, 12:25 AM
Now if they can only find Archie's missing cat.

Ultra Peanut
01-04-2006, 12:51 AM
Now someone's saying there's only one survivor, and that the scene is apparently a madhouse among the main crowd of people.

tk13
01-04-2006, 12:52 AM
CNN is reporting there's only 1 actual survivor... I can't believe this....

grandllama
01-04-2006, 12:53 AM
they should have put out anti freeze

Ultra Peanut
01-04-2006, 12:54 AM
CNN is reporting there's only 1 actual survivor... I can't believe this....This is some serious ****ing, "HOLY SHIT."

tk13
01-04-2006, 01:00 AM
Yeah, I thought everything was great and turned it, I was just flipping back through the channels and Anderson Cooper looked like a train hit him and he was just saying that they were now learning that they are all dead. I don't even know how the mine officials made that mistake... even the governor gave the thumbs up earlier....

listopencil
01-04-2006, 01:05 AM
CNN is reporting there's only 1 actual survivor... I can't believe this....



I bet he ate the other ones.

chefsos
01-04-2006, 01:12 AM
Damn. Damn. Man, the shit those poor families must be going through. They must be damn near insane now. How the hell could this info get f*cked up so badly?

tk13
01-04-2006, 01:17 AM
I guess it's kinda like the whole elementary school game of telephone... pass a secret around the room and see how much it mutates in the process. One of the rescue workers said 12 were alive and that got passed through cell phone communication I guess... that's what the president of the mine corporation says. That's why it took the mine so long to actually hold a press conference, they didn't have confirmation of things until now....

Chiefs Pantalones
01-04-2006, 01:19 AM
Communication gone horribly wrong.

chefsos
01-04-2006, 01:58 AM
12 Found Dead in W.Va. Coal Mine

By Ann Scott Tyson and Fred Barbash
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, January 4, 2006; 3:18 AM

SAGO, W.Va., Jan. 4 -- Stunned and weeping family members were told early Wednesday morning that 12 of the 13 miners trapped 12,000 feet into a mountainside since early Monday were found dead.

They were given the news about 2:00 a.m. Wednesday morning, just a few hours after being led to believe that all but one of the men were alive. Company officials confirmed the deaths at 3:06 a.m. and said a "miscommunication" stemming from an overheard cellphone conversation resulted in the spreading of the original information--that 12 were alive.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/04/AR2006010400247.html


The cruel bitch of all this is that Wednesday's print papers are going to trumpet the news that they were found alive.

tk13
01-04-2006, 02:11 AM
Yep, on CNN they just showed a copy of USA Today. Great big print. "12 Miners found alive!"

Something like that anyway...

jAZ
01-04-2006, 03:03 AM
Damn. Damn. Man, the shit those poor families must be going through. They must be damn near insane now. How the hell could this info get f*cked up so badly?
They are, and they are actiing irrationally. They are fuming and keep talking about "lying" and how the company lied to them.

There were 3 women being interviewed on CNN.

They didn't seem to have a rational thought between the 3 of them. All emotion, and all worked up. I'm sure they were emotionally raw.

The media guy tried to explain that it was a "miscommunication", and they all flatly refused him saying that there was no room for "miscommunictaion".

They either didn't understand or refused to hear that the miscommunication wasn't on their part but between the rescuers and the command center.

It was frustrating to watch because I really lost sympathy for them as a result of the interview. They weren't hearing the details though their outrage. That's understable, but it also pissed me off that the CNN guy seemed to try and feed that outrage rather than try to clarify the details and bring down their (misplaced) anger.

It's a crappy situation and I imagine that all the people involved are victim to some crappy circumstances. Obviously the families end up suffering the most, by far.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 03:12 AM
How the hell could this info get f*cked up so badly?
From the press conference, it sounds like the rescuers reported arriving at the scene and finding 12 survivors (or that's what the command center heard from them). It turns out that they were trying to say they found the 12 miners (not necessarily that they were all alive).

Apparently the radio in the command center is one that fills the room so everyone heard the report and someone called family or something unoffically reporting the news. Someone those unoffical reports got back to the church (by family members on cell phones supposedly).

The reports at the church actaully came from the families themselves and not from the company or the governor.

That's what's been reported anyway.

VonneMarie
01-04-2006, 05:28 AM
Some one is going to pay for this sh!t. God, that's horrible. :(

Bob Dole
01-04-2006, 06:03 AM
They are, and they are actiing irrationally. They are fuming and keep talking about "lying" and how the company lied to them.


Obviously the company lied, not expecting that the families would eventually learn the truth... :rolleyes:

It's a messed up deal, but if people feel the need to play the blame game, they need to focus on the disaster itself and not a collateral event like miscommunication about survivors.

RedDread
01-04-2006, 06:09 AM
Obviously the company lied, not expecting that the families would eventually learn the truth... :rolleyes:

It's a messed up deal, but if people feel the need to play the blame game, they need to focus on the disaster itself and not a collateral event like miscommunication about survivors.

You win this thread.

jjjayb
01-04-2006, 06:14 AM
Bush Lied, Miners Died.

Baby Lee
01-04-2006, 06:29 AM
They are, and they are actiing irrationally. They are fuming and keep talking about "lying" and how the company lied to them.

There were 3 women being interviewed on CNN.

They didn't seem to have a rational thought between the 3 of them. All emotion, and all worked up. I'm sure they were emotionally raw.

The media guy tried to explain that it was a "miscommunication", and they all flatly refused him saying that there was no room for "miscommunictaion".

They either didn't understand or refused to hear that the miscommunication wasn't on their part but between the rescuers and the command center.

It was frustrating to watch because I really lost sympathy for them as a result of the interview. They weren't hearing the details though their outrage. That's understable, but it also pissed me off that the CNN guy seemed to try and feed that outrage rather than try to clarify the details and bring down their (misplaced) anger.

It's a crappy situation and I imagine that all the people involved are victim to some crappy circumstances. Obviously the families end up suffering the most, by far.
If they didn't out and out lie, they at the very least sure cherry picked their intelligence. :rolleyes:

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 06:31 AM
Well, I'm glad I missed riding this rollar coaster as it was happening...

it's heartwrenching enough to hear about it after the fact. :deevee:

I can completely understand the families outrage. Especially given the fact that of the 200 violations this company was cited for last year, over 90 of them were serious and/or safety violations. Obviously the families had EVERY reason to be skeptical of what the officials from the mine tell them.

It seems the sad irony here is in their haste to believe in a miracle they did not remember these officials are the very same people they've come to suspect since the accident.

Just an all around horrible situation. I hope the officials of the mine are prosecuted if they knowingly, even inadvertantly, sent these guys into their deaths.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 06:32 AM
Bush Lied, Miners Died.

Please don't politicize this. That isn't even a funny joke. :shake: :mad: :rolleyes:

Baby Lee
01-04-2006, 06:37 AM
Please don't politicize this. That isn't even a funny joke. :shake: :mad: :rolleyes:
Fugg hugh!! Miss politicize everything.
This is no more or less serious, nor more or less political, than Bush's actions in the WoT. And the parallels between the 'sheep' apologists response to the banshees on the left on Iraq, and jAZ's response to the family members is undeniable, down to the smallest detail.

Bob Dole
01-04-2006, 06:44 AM
If they didn't out and out lie, they at the very least sure cherry picked their intelligence. :rolleyes:


Again, what could the company possibly gain by making up false claims of survivors? To blame the miscommunication solely on the company is ridiculous. If you want to blame the accident itself on company negligence, that's fine...but to claim that the company intentionally led people to believe there were survivors is just plain silly.

Where is the motivation for such an act of misinformation? Did the company plan to bring in body-doubles to insert into the families and just couldn't get it done before CNN discovered the real truth? :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, this kind of stuff is the price tag attached to All-Media-Access-All-The-Time.

People need to focus on the real issue and stop headhunting. Alas, the latter seems to be the New American Way.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 06:44 AM
Fugg hugh!! Miss politicize everything.
This is no more or less serious, nor more or less political, than Bush's actions in the WoT. And the parallels between the 'sheep' apologists response to the banshees on the left on Iraq, and jAZ's response to the family members is undeniable, down to the smallest detail.

Put down the whiskey and grab some coffee...

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 06:48 AM
Again, what could the company possibly gain by making up false claims of survivors? To blame the miscommunication solely on the company is ridiculous. If you want to blame the accident itself on company negligence, that's fine...but to claim that the company intentionally led people to believe there were survivors is just plain silly.

Where is the motivation for such an act of misinformation? Did the company plan to bring in body-doubles to insert into the families and just couldn't get it done before CNN discovered the real truth? :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, this kind of stuff is the price tag attached to All-Media-Access-All-The-Time.

People need to focus on the real issue and stop headhunting. Alas, the latter seems to be the New American Way.

I agree with this post 100%. I don't think the company lied about survivors. There would be NO SANE REASON TO DO SO.

However, it's quite evident this company has a long and continued history of neglect and irresponsibility to the workers. I would think that the families would have been more skeptical of the word of survivors given the mine officials terrible history but they were not. Ultimately, when the shock and anger wears off they will see they surrendered their common sense to hope for a miracle and were understandably vulnerable to believing these same officials who have consistently not had their families best interest at heart from the start.

That is QUITE different from the officials outright lying...

jjjayb
01-04-2006, 06:51 AM
Please don't politicize this. That isn't even a funny joke. :shake: :mad: :rolleyes:


:rolleyes: Are you serious? Don't politicize this? Pretty crappy isn't it? You see the irony of this? You are the queen of politicizing tragic situations. Now maybe you understand why the people on this board who still have at least a fraction of their sanity left are so disgusted by you.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 06:53 AM
:rolleyes: Are you serious? Don't politicize this? Pretty crappy isn't it? You see the irony of this? You are the queen of politicizing tragic situations. Now maybe you understand why the people on this board who still have at least a fraction of their sanity left are so disgusted by you.

Actually, I'm not. I am, however, the most popular and cited excuse for other people politicizing current events. Thank you.

If you need proof, see the fact that you made your shithead remark before I even posted on this thread.

Baby Lee
01-04-2006, 06:57 AM
Again, what could the company possibly gain by making up false claims of survivors? To blame the miscommunication solely on the company is ridiculous. If you want to blame the accident itself on company negligence, that's fine...but to claim that the company intentionally led people to believe there were survivors is just plain silly.

Where is the motivation for such an act of misinformation? Did the company plan to bring in body-doubles to insert into the families and just couldn't get it done before CNN discovered the real truth? :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, this kind of stuff is the price tag attached to All-Media-Access-All-The-Time.

People need to focus on the real issue and stop headhunting. Alas, the latter seems to be the New American Way.
You may have missed my tone.

Baby Lee
01-04-2006, 06:59 AM
Put down the whiskey and grab some coffee...
In case no one ever told you, a deflection is not a rebuttal.

John_Wayne
01-04-2006, 06:59 AM
CNN is reporting there's only 1 actual survivor... I can't believe this.... When I went to bed last night all of the news agencies were reporting 12 alive and 1 dead. GREAT!! Now, this morning I woke up and I kept seeing reports of 1 alive and 12 dead. HORRIBLE! I went to Fox News to confirm it. Damn! It's true. Fox News was reporting that all of the news agencies got their info from the Miners Foreman. The Foreman overheard the radio transmission from the rescuers in the mine to the rescue team on the surface. Apparently, he heard it wrong and ran around telling everyone that there were 12 survivors. In a way, I can't blame him. It's just a terrible situation.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 07:02 AM
In case no one ever told you, a deflection is not a rebuttal.

Neither is projection, which is what you were doing with JAZ's post.

StcChief
01-04-2006, 07:12 AM
Again the non-verified 24x7 News get any story fast, forget verifying facts. Run with it.

bkkcoh
01-04-2006, 07:12 AM
From the press conference, it sounds like the rescuers reported arriving at the scene and finding 12 survivors (or that's what the command center heard from them). It turns out that they were trying to say they found the 12 miners (not necessarily that they were all alive).Apparently the radio in the command center is one that fills the room so everyone heard the report and someone called family or something unoffically reporting the news. Someone those unoffical reports got back to the church (by family members on cell phones supposedly).

Isn't that like the school game where you whisper something in a kids ear and then they whisper into the next and so on and so on. By the time it gets to the end, it is totally different then the original.

If it was a reporter who thought he heard survivors and then ran with the story, he should be held accountable. It would be very unfortunate if this was the case.

RP_McMurphy
01-04-2006, 07:31 AM
This miscommunication reminds me of Damage Control exercises we used to run on. We would line up the whole Damage Control Party and start at one end with someone passing information along and on the other end we would wait to see what came out on the end. Never once in running this exercise did the exact word ever make it the whole way to the end. There were physical issues (remember the rescue party was underground and in horrid conditions), mental (everyone was tired and running on empty after 2 days of ups and downs) and emotional (everyone wanted to believe that many of these guys survived.....so yes they might have picked up something and ran with it). I don't blame anyone for this miscommunication as it was just a tragic mistake. It is obvious that this coal mine was a accident waiting to happen with his continious pattern of bad inspections. My prayers are for the families and for that small town as it will be touched to the core by this tragedy.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 07:57 AM
Again the non-verified 24x7 News get any story fast, forget verifying facts. Run with it.

I know it's en vogue to blame the MSM on everything these days, but in this case they are not to blame. They were simply reporting what mine officials had apparently told families and families repeated to them.

The people who needed to verify facts were the MINE OFFICIALS. They not only miscommunicated with the families but the media and then the general public.

stevieray
01-04-2006, 07:59 AM
The media will play the blame game all day, because the tragedy isn't as important as the "news".

Give us dirty laundry.

Rain Man
01-04-2006, 08:03 AM
It's a little creepy here in Denver. The newspapers in the newspaper stands (which come out early) have a headline saying that the miners are alive, and the newspapers delivered to the homes (which come out a couple of hours later) have a headline saying that they're dead. Both of them have the same photo of a wife hearing the incorrect news that they're alive.

angel
01-04-2006, 08:04 AM
That's really sad. I got up this morning, and saw the front page of the KC Star, big, bold print "12 Miners Found Alive After 41 Hours". As I'm reading it, my dad tells me that it's not actually true. That the news was given around midnight that they were alive, the story was print and a few hours later, the opposite was found to be true.

I just want to send my thoughts out into space for the families and their loss. What a horrible way to find out your loved ones are gone. To be so hopeful and have those hopes granted, and then for them to be ripped away as quickly as they were given ... what a terrible thing to have to go through.

KCTitus
01-04-2006, 08:13 AM
The media will play the blame game all day, because the tragedy isn't as important as the "news".

Give us dirty laundry.

Of course...it's not because of irresponsible journalism, no way, it's because that damned mining company and their greedy profits. (see Jaz's posts)

Donger
01-04-2006, 08:18 AM
Wow. Who would have guessed that jAZ and mememe would be on this thread.

First, a tasty hurricane. Now, this.

Ari Chi3fs
01-04-2006, 08:19 AM
This situation certainly sucks, and is a tragedy to each of the families. Unfortunately, this type of accident has been happening since the beginning of the mining industry, and most of these miners who died, were certainly aware of these occupational hazards.

Sucks though... but certainly not unexpected.

gblowfish
01-04-2006, 08:27 AM
Did you notice the spokesman for the mine was named Hatfield, and the one guy who survived was named McCloy?

West Virginia at its weirdest...

Ultra Peanut
01-04-2006, 08:27 AM
This is the worst miscommunication since Emmett and Ma Otter both decided to compete in the Frogtown Hollow Talent Show.

siberian khatru
01-04-2006, 08:27 AM
Did you notice the spokesman for the mine was named Hatfield, and the one guy who survived was named McCoy?

West Virginia at its weirdest...

West Virginia: 1.5 million people, 4 last names.

Cochise
01-04-2006, 08:31 AM
Wow. Who would have guessed that jAZ and mememe would be on this thread.

First, a tasty hurricane. Now, this.

Hooray for disaster

gblowfish
01-04-2006, 08:39 AM
This miscommunication reminds me of Damage Control exercises we used to run on. We would line up the whole Damage Control Party and start at one end with someone passing information along and on the other end we would wait to see what came out on the end. Never once in running this exercise did the exact word ever make it the whole way to the end. There were physical issues (remember the rescue party was underground and in horrid conditions), mental (everyone was tired and running on empty after 2 days of ups and downs) and emotional (everyone wanted to believe that many of these guys survived.....so yes they might have picked up something and ran with it). I don't blame anyone for this miscommunication as it was just a tragic mistake. It is obvious that this coal mine was a accident waiting to happen with his continious pattern of bad inspections. My prayers are for the families and for that small town as it will be touched to the core by this tragedy.You know they'll be talking about this in every journalism school in the country this AM. Whatever happended to verifying sources? Black eye for the mass media, and horrible for the families involved.

Bob Dole
01-04-2006, 08:40 AM
I know it's en vogue to blame the MSM on everything these days, but in this case they are not to blame. They were simply reporting what mine officials had apparently told families and families repeated to them.

The people who needed to verify facts were the MINE OFFICIALS. They not only miscommunicated with the families but the media and then the general public.

So you are completely discounting the report that the media overheard/intercepted rescue worker communications and used that for the basis of their reports?

Ultra Peanut
01-04-2006, 08:41 AM
So you are completely discounting the report that the media overheard/intercepted rescue worker communications and used that for the basis of their reports?I hope they checked their sources before reporting that...

Baby Lee
01-04-2006, 08:45 AM
Neither is projection, which is what you were doing with JAZ's post.
I am not protecting myself by attributing my feelings on jAZ. I am simply observing the concrete parallels between jAZ's remarks in response to those who are irate at the rescue teams and others who forwarded the news and the remarks of those responding to the BLPD contingent.

jspchief
01-04-2006, 08:49 AM
For ****'s sakes, someone should change the title of this thread. Just because newspapers can't undo their headlines, that doesn't mean Chiefsplanet can't.

A little respect please.

siberian khatru
01-04-2006, 08:50 AM
For ****'s sakes, someone should change the title of this thread. Just because newspapers can't undo their headlines, that doesn't mean Chiefsplanet can't.

A little respect please.

This isn't a journalism site. That would cost you $79.95.

Bob Dole
01-04-2006, 08:51 AM
12 Found Dead in W.Va. Coal Mine

By Ann Scott Tyson and Fred Barbash
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, January 4, 2006; 3:18 AM

SAGO, W.Va., Jan. 4 -- Stunned and weeping family members were told early Wednesday morning that 12 of the 13 miners trapped 12,000 feet into a mountainside since early Monday were found dead.

They were given the news about 2:00 a.m. Wednesday morning, just a few hours after being led to believe that all but one of the men were alive. Company officials confirmed the deaths at 3:06 a.m. and said a "miscommunication" stemming from an overheard cellphone conversation resulted in the spreading of the original information--that 12 were alive.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/04/AR2006010400247.html


The cruel bitch of all this is that Wednesday's print papers are going to trumpet the news that they were found alive.

It's interesting how the linked article has changed since you posted.

Hatfield explained at a news conference early Wednesday what happened next. Officials and rescue supervisors were gathered at a command post near the mine when the voice of a rescue worker crackled loudly over a speaker phone, saying they had found 12 miners and were checking their vital signs.

Somehow, Hatfield and everyone else in the room who heard the call believed they were being told the men were alive.

Word spread rapidly to the relatives. It is unclear who was the first to tell them, though Hatfield at one point said they learned as the result of a "stray cell phone call."

Though they've toned it down some, it sure sounds like the responsibility for the false report falls upon the media rather than the company.

And it still sidesteps the real issue of the accident. That's probably the company's fault, too, rather than the media.

Bob Dole
01-04-2006, 08:52 AM
For ****'s sakes, someone should change the title of this thread. Just because newspapers can't undo their headlines, that doesn't mean Chiefsplanet can't.

A little respect please.

Done.

jspchief
01-04-2006, 08:54 AM
Thank you.

I just know that I've looked at that thread title since last night, believing they survived. I didn't realize they were dead until I finally read the thread this morning.

mlyonsd
01-04-2006, 08:57 AM
I know it's en vogue to blame the MSM on everything these days, but in this case they are not to blame. They were simply reporting what mine officials had apparently told families and families repeated to them.

The people who needed to verify facts were the MINE OFFICIALS. They not only miscommunicated with the families but the media and then the general public.

Err, I'm no journalism expert but I would think there are editors at some pretty lofty east coast papers trying to figure out why they look so stupid this morning after printing false headlines the miners were rescued.

I'm thinking one of the first rules of Journalism 101 is you verify hearsay with a direct quote from the Mining company before running with it.

angel
01-04-2006, 08:59 AM
Done.
That's a very respectable title for the thread. I like it much better than saying dead or alive in the thread title.

Very nice job.

Rain Man
01-04-2006, 09:00 AM
Done.

So did you leave the misspelled word as a tribute to the West Virginia school system?

nychief
01-04-2006, 09:02 AM
I just posted the new CNN story. This is aweful.

KCTitus
01-04-2006, 09:03 AM
Title's still wrong....

Should be: "Greed Corporation kills its workers and lied about it, like Bush..."

MOhillbilly
01-04-2006, 09:05 AM
regardless- This is a bad deal all the way around.

My thoughts go out to the community,families and friends.

Brock
01-04-2006, 09:56 AM
I know it's en vogue to blame the MSM on everything these days, but in this case they are not to blame. They were simply reporting what mine officials had apparently told families and families repeated to them.

The people who needed to verify facts were the MINE OFFICIALS. They not only miscommunicated with the families but the media and then the general public.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar18_6.gif

siberian khatru
01-04-2006, 10:06 AM
So did you leave the misspelled word as a tribute to the West Virginia school system?

I've never seen such heartless cruelty aimed at so many first cousins.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 10:24 AM
So you are completely discounting the report that the media overheard/intercepted rescue worker communications and used that for the basis of their reports?

If the media first reported it then they had to get the information from someone. If it came from two different sources, in this case the mine officials, then they've done their job as far as journalistic standards go.

If they simply overheard phone calls and repeated something without verification then of course you could fault them for breaking an untrue story.

However, if they reported, as I had heard, that the FAMILIES were first told via cell phone calls from mine officials and they reported this fact then you cannot blame them for reporting a false story. They were reporting that the families were celebrating news from the mine that their loved ones are safe. When they are standing there seeing screams of joy and dancing in the church you cannot expect them to believe that the families were not given anything but accurate information FROM mine officials.

I guess it depends on who got the story first. Once this is sorted out then the blame and flame can be accurately assessed. My point on this thread is that I don't think anyone 'lied' or mislead intentionally. And to pretend they are or to assume others are thinking they were simply to politicize the issue is bogus and petty.

Someone should be held accountable for this:http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/MINE_EXPLOSION.sff_WXS101_20060104094219.jpg

jAZ
01-04-2006, 10:34 AM
Wow. Who would have guessed that jAZ and mememe would be on this thread.

First, a tasty hurricane. Now, this.
Nicely done.

You are using a disaster to score personal/political points on a message board.

Classy move.

Donger
01-04-2006, 10:40 AM
Nicely done.

You are using a disaster to score personal/political points on a message board.

Classy move.

Actually, I was simply reading the thread. Much to my surprise, you two are on it doing much the same as you did with Katrina.

I'm not attempting to "score points." Merely pointing out a fact.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 10:57 AM
Actually, I was simply reading the thread. Much to my surprise, you two are on it doing much the same as you did with Katrina.

I'm not attempting to "score points." Merely pointing out a fact.

You are psycho or full of shit, likely both.

The ONLY mentions that could be construed as remotely political have come from your side of the isle. I know you and your cohorts are working it to get this thread into DC now that jAZ and I are on it. I'm not going political on this thread so keep trying.

Iowanian
01-04-2006, 10:59 AM
"Mine officials" didn't break this news.

this morning, I watched an interview with a family member, who said someone "overheard" something from a rescue radio, and got on the cell phone and called the Church(family members) and the snowball rolled from there.

Its tragic and I'm sorry for these families, but the news "leak" wasn't mine or govt officials fault IMO based souly on what I heard.

Family members were the ones running down the hill doing interviews and thankin' Jesus...It wasn't the Company spokesman.

Donger
01-04-2006, 11:00 AM
You are psycho or full of shit, likely both.

The ONLY mentions that could be construed as political have come from your side of the isle.

And you apparently still have reading comprehension issues.

I've not mentioned politics.

I'm simply pointing out that you two have a history (and a propensity, it seems) for looking for blame in the midst of unpleasant events. You and he did it with Katrina, and you seem to be doing that with this story.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 11:03 AM
And you apparently still have reading comprehension issues.

I've not mentioned politics.

I'm simply pointing out that you two have a history (and a propensity, it seems) for looking for blame in the midst of unpleasant events. You and he did it with Katrina, and you seem to be doing that with this story.

You also suffer from reading issues. Please provide an instance of blame that I have placed on anyone in this thread regarding the miscommunication of the deaths of the miners.

I think if you were paying close attention I DISAGREE with placing blame until more facts are in.

Donger
01-04-2006, 11:05 AM
You also suffer from reading issues. Please provide an instance of blame that I have placed on anyone in this thread regarding the miscommunication of the deaths of the miners.

I think if you were paying close attention I DISAGREE with placing blame until more facts are in.


Okay.

I know it's en vogue to blame the MSM on everything these days, but in this case they are not to blame. They were simply reporting what mine officials had apparently told families and families repeated to them.

The people who needed to verify facts were the MINE OFFICIALS. They not only miscommunicated with the families but the media and then the general public.

You're blaming the "MINE OFFICIALS" are you not?

Bob Dole
01-04-2006, 11:09 AM
So did you leave the misspelled word as a tribute to the West Virginia school system?

Oops. Actually didn't even notice it. Just cut out the "alive" part and added "discussion."

Iowanian
01-04-2006, 11:12 AM
Dense and Jaz are just confused how to feel right now.

On one hand, its upsetting because of the tragic deaths and circumstances of this event.

on the other hand, they're politically motivated to throw a smoke screen, as the now available 13 jobs in West Virginia will reduce the unemployment numbers in the area, making the sitting pres look too good.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 11:12 AM
Okay.



You're blaming the "MINE OFFICIALS" are you not?

No, I'm stating the people who needed to verify the facts are the mine officials who have their people and rescuers down their mine. THEY are the ones would be in place do disseminate the information in the first place.

Anderson Cooper nor any of the families were down that mine. If they were and were the source of incorrect information then they could be responsible for disseminating it.

Apparently a foreman overheard a phone call, he spread the information to the families, the families then to the media. If this chain of events is true then the media were a third or forth party conduit of the information.

Donger
01-04-2006, 11:14 AM
No, I'm stating the people who needed to verify the facts are the mine officials who have their people and rescuers down their mine. THEY are the ones would be in place do disseminate the information in the first place.

Anderson Cooper nor any of the families were down that mine. If they were and were the source of incorrect information then they could be responsible for disseminating it.

Thanks for proving my point. Just like with Katrina, you're looking past the still-warm bodies, and thinking about blame allocation.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 11:16 AM
Thanks for proving my point. Just like with Katrina, you're looking past the still-warm bodies, and thinking about blame allocation.

uh, no, not quite. No blame. I'm just repeating the sequence of events I heard happened. Apparently a foreman overheard a phone call, he spread the information to the families, the families then to the media. If this chain of events is true then the media were a third or forth party conduit of the information.

To then try to say the MSM is somehow being irresponsible or is responsible for the story is wrong.

As is trying to distort what I've written to suite your purposes.

Donger
01-04-2006, 11:19 AM
uh, no, not quite. No blame. I'm just repeating the sequence of events I heard happened. Apparently a foreman overheard a phone call, he spread the information to the families, the families then to the media. If this chain of events is true then the media were a third or forth party conduit of the information.

To then try to say the MSM is somehow being irresponsible or is responsible for the story is wrong.

As is trying to distort what I've written to suite your purposes.

The very fact that you're even thinking about it, let alone writing about it, proves the point.

At least you're consistent.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 11:47 AM
Actually, I was simply reading the thread. Much to my surprise, you two are on it doing much the same as you did with Katrina.

I'm not attempting to "score points." Merely pointing out a fact.
My only comments on this thread (other than conveying my understanding of the facts) was that the families are over-reacting because they are (understandably) emotional about their loss. That they are unfairly blaming the company/media/public for anything.

I have no "political" opinion about this in any way.

You are the only one exploiting this event to advance your agenda... well you and the others trying to turn this into a discussion of Bush. So I guess you aren't entirely alone.

Baby Lee
01-04-2006, 11:49 AM
My only comments on this thread (other than conveying my understanding of the facts) was that the families are over-reacting because they are (understandably) emotional about their loss. That they are unfairly blaming the company/media/public for anything.

I have no "political" opinion about this in any way.

You are the only one exploiting this event to advance your agenda... well you and the others trying to turn this into a discussion of Bush. So I guess you aren't entirely alone.
Serious question, does your visceral response to the families affect in any way your assessment of the BLPD crowd and the visceral response of some to them?

Donger
01-04-2006, 11:51 AM
My only comments on this thread (other than conveying my understanding of the facts) was that the families are over-reacting because they are (understandably) emotional about their loss. That they are unfairly blaming the company/media/public for anything.


"Understandably over-reacting?" That's nice.

I have no "political" opinion about this in any way.

Nor did I say you did.

You are the only one exploiting this event to advance your agenda... well you and the others trying to turn this into a discussion of Bush. So I guess you aren't entirely alone.

If my agenda is pointing out that you and mememe have a history of this kind of crap in the face of tragedy, then yes.

Cochise
01-04-2006, 11:54 AM
If my agenda is pointing out that you and mememe have a history of this kind of crap in the face of tragedy, then yes.

:clap:

jAZ
01-04-2006, 11:55 AM
...this kind of crap ...
nicely done... avoid saying exactly what you believe "this kind of crap" is... can't be held to acccount for what you don't explicitly say right?

jAZ
01-04-2006, 11:58 AM
Serious question, does your visceral response to the families affect in any way your assessment of the BLPD crowd and the visceral response of some to them?
I've always viewed both in the same light. Emotional overreaction. However, it's possible to talk reasonably about both actions in their appropriate context.

Donger
01-04-2006, 12:00 PM
nicely done... avoid saying exactly what you believe "this kind of crap" is... can't be held to acccount for what you don't explicitly say right?

I'm really not that duplicitous. I apparently just over-estimated you.

This kind of crap = focus not on the people in trouble or mourning the deceased, but on other things. For instance, focusing on how the families were acting irrationally and "losing sympathy" for them.

Your words.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 12:06 PM
The very fact that you're even thinking about it, let alone writing about it, proves the point.

At least you're consistent.

Oh, so now you are a mind reader? :hmmm:

The only reason I mentioned the chronicle of events was to point out the media is not culpable for initial transmission of false information. That information had to come from someone inside the mine. Those people would be either mine company employees and/or rescuers.

Again, it's too easy to assign blame. But at this point based on the series of events that has been described it's easy to see the media will not be rightful target of blame here...

contrary to the early trend by some on this board to do so.

Again, no blame has been assigned by me contrary to your thinking what I'm thinking. :rolleyes:

Donger
01-04-2006, 12:09 PM
Oh, so now you are a mind reader? :hmmm:

No. It's called logic. Unless, of course, you can type without thinking.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 12:09 PM
ROFL

Even Rush Limbaugh has changed his tone since he's heard the chronology of the events. The first hour of his show he had a MSM blamefest.

Inspector
01-04-2006, 12:19 PM
Nicely done.

You are using a disaster to score personal/political points on a message board.

Classy move.


Wha...?

We can get POINTS????

I didn't know that.

Baby Lee
01-04-2006, 12:23 PM
I've always viewed both in the same light. Emotional overreaction. However, it's possible to talk reasonably about both actions in their appropriate context.
Thank you. Can we now dispense with the absurd idea that those who refute such emotional overreactions are simply sheep?

KCTitus
01-04-2006, 12:27 PM
No. It's called logic. Unless, of course, you can type without thinking.

Of course she can...you READ her posts, yes?

jAZ
01-04-2006, 12:40 PM
Thank you. Can we now dispense with the absurd idea that those who refute such emotional overreactions are simply sheep?
As per usual, the devil is in the details of what you are saying. There is a lot of "Bush Lied" discussion that's entirely legit. In fact the comparison to this discussion of "lying" is a complete joke. I'm not going to (re)start the actually discussion there, but let's just try to agree that the possibility of the powers that be deliberately lying about the life/death status of 12 people is not even remotely similar to the possiblity of the powers that be deliberately lying about the case for a disputed war.

Those who are whole cloth trying to stop such a discussion should NOT be given a free pass to dismiss such a discussion.

If your comments are limited strictly and precisely to the narrow minorty who use slogans like "bush lied people died" for effect, then I've never disputed that.

Like I said, the devil is in the details.

Chief Henry
01-04-2006, 12:43 PM
I can completely understand the families outrage. Especially given the fact that of the 200 violations this company was cited for last year, over 90 of them were serious and/or safety violations. Obviously the families had EVERY reason to be skeptical of what the officials from the mine tell them.

It seems the sad irony here is in their haste to believe in a miracle they did not remember these officials are the very same people they've come to suspect since the accident.

Just an all around horrible situation. I hope the officials of the mine are prosecuted if they knowingly, even inadvertantly, sent these guys into their deaths.


Just wondering who she's placing the blame on right here !!!

tk13
01-04-2006, 12:58 PM
I would say that I think I could defend the media's action in this particular case because the governor himself was going around giving thumbs up talking to the families celebrating the "miracle". I think that made the media outlets pretty confident that they had the right info, when the governor of the state is going around and saying this is going on.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:02 PM
I'm really not that duplicitous. I apparently just over-estimated you.

This kind of crap = focus not on the people in trouble or mourning the deceased, but on other things. For instance, focusing on how the families were acting irrationally and "losing sympathy" for them.

Your words.
If that's all your point is, then have at it. I don't see that as even remotely a bad thing.

But your comparison to the Katrina thing is bogus at best. Your point of outrage before wasn't that we were talking about some side issue while the bodies were still warm (as you put it), it was that you were outraged it was being politicized while the bodies were still warm. That you are trying to distance the conversation from the political angle you tried to take regarding Katrina says about all I need to know, I guess.

Your comparison is bogus and was made flippantly. Now that you realize you are acting as shallow as you accuse me of acting, you are stuck looking like a hypocrite or purveyor of fake outrage. Neither is particularly flattering.

Taco John
01-04-2006, 01:04 PM
The only reason I mentioned the chronicle of events was to point out the media is not culpable for initial transmission of false information.


The media is most certainly culpable for the transmission of false information to their audience. Rather than waiting for the official sources to give them the correct information... rather than confirming their story with more than just one source, they ran with a rumor. It's the same stuff that people are rallying against Athan for with regards to Chiefs news. If people are that mad over Chiefs news not being right, they sure as hell are going to get angry when it's a matter of life and death.

The media was terribly irresponsible.

KC Dan
01-04-2006, 01:05 PM
The media is most certainly culpable for the transmission of false information to their audience. Rather than waiting for the official sources to give them the correct information... rather than confirming their story with more than just one source, they ran with a rumor. It's the same stuff that people are rallying against Athan for with regards to Chiefs news. If people are that mad over Chiefs news not being right, they sure as hell are going to get angry when it's a matter of life and death.

The media was terribly irresponsible.
ABSOLUTELY!

tk13
01-04-2006, 01:06 PM
The media is most certainly culpable for the transmission of false information to their audience. Rather than waiting for the official sources to give them the correct information... rather than confirming their story with more than just one source, they ran with a rumor. It's the same stuff that people are rallying against Athan for with regards to Chiefs news. If people are that mad over Chiefs news not being right, they sure as hell are going to get angry when it's a matter of life and death.

The media was terribly irresponsible.
But the governor was the one saying this. That's not a credible source?

Taco John
01-04-2006, 01:07 PM
But the governor was the one saying this. That's not a credible source?



As far as I know, he got his information from the media...

Taco John
01-04-2006, 01:09 PM
As far as I know, he got his information from the media...



And let me be clear... The governor shouldn't be able to simply point blame at the media and be done with it. He was terribly irresponsible too. But given the circumstances, it's much easier to forgive him than it is the original "rumor runners." He was desperate for some good news, and when he got it, he latched onto it believing it was credible.

Donger
01-04-2006, 01:10 PM
If that's all your point is, then have at it. I don't see that as even remotely a bad thing.

Which is precisely my point.

But your comparison to the Katrina thing is bogus at best. Your point of outrage before wasn't that we were talking about some side issue while the bodies were still warm (as you put it), it was that you were outraged it was being politicized while the bodies were still warm. That you are trying to distance the conversation from the political angle you tried to take regarding Katrina says about all I need to know, I guess.

Again, it's just the fact that any other thought (political or otherwise) other than sympathy/mourning for the victims enters your minds that I find reprehensible. If you're fine with that, so be it.

Your comparison is bogus and was made flippantly. Now that you realize you are acting as shallow as you accuse me of acting, you are stuck looking like a hypocrite or purveyor of fake outrage. Neither is particularly flattering.

I'm not outraged. Disgusted, perhaps, but not outraged. Nor am I surprised. Nor was my comment flippant; it was and is simply the truth.

KC Dan
01-04-2006, 01:13 PM
Taco John as the voice of reason??? Hell has indeed frozen over!

ROFL

Taco John
01-04-2006, 01:13 PM
I do know that Rush Limbaugh was practically giddy all day today. He sounds like he won a prize or something out of this. Ah the state of politics in America.

Donger
01-04-2006, 01:15 PM
I do know that Rush Limbaugh was practically giddy all day today. He sounds like he won a prize or something out of this. Ah the state of politics in America.

He was probably high.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:15 PM
Again, it's just the fact that any other thought (political or otherwise) other than sympathy/mourning for the victims enters your minds that I find reprehensible. If you're fine with that, so be it.
Yeah, god forbid 41 hours later I allow "any other thought (political or otherwise)" to enter my mind.

How terrible!

tk13
01-04-2006, 01:17 PM
As far as I know, he got his information from the media...
No, it was the other way around. The governor was in the church with the people when they started saying 12 are alive and celebrated with the families... and the media caught wind of it....

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:19 PM
The media is most certainly culpable for the transmission of false information to their audience. Rather than waiting for the official sources to give them the correct information... rather than confirming their story with more than just one source, they ran with a rumor. It's the same stuff that people are rallying against Athan for with regards to Chiefs news. If people are that mad over Chiefs news not being right, they sure as hell are going to get angry when it's a matter of life and death.

The media was terribly irresponsible.
Yep, they (CNN) also seemed to fuel the outraged of the greiving families with misinformation.

The media is responsible for their own behavior. While the source of all of the misinformation is in fact what appears to be an honest mistake, that doesn't mean that the media behaved as they should have.

Donger
01-04-2006, 01:19 PM
Yeah, god forbid 41 hours later I allow "any other thought (political or otherwise)" to enter my mind.

How terrible!

So, someone posted using your account at 3:03am today?

tk13
01-04-2006, 01:19 PM
That is why the governor held a press conference at like 4 am last night explaining his actions... not once did he say he got that information from any media outlet, but his own people...

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:21 PM
But the governor was the one saying this. That's not a credible source?
No, the governor was among the famillies and when the "party" broke out because of the back-channel (cell phone) annoucement was made by family members in the church. He left immediately to go up to confirm what the families had heard and were celebrating. He didn't "say" anything about it.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 01:21 PM
The media is most certainly culpable for the transmission of false information to their audience. Rather than waiting for the official sources to give them the correct information... rather than confirming their story with more than just one source, they ran with a rumor. It's the same stuff that people are rallying against Athan for with regards to Chiefs news. If people are that mad over Chiefs news not being right, they sure as hell are going to get angry when it's a matter of life and death.

The media was terribly irresponsible.

You probably need to catch up on your reading.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:22 PM
So, someone posted using your account at 3:03am today?
No that was me. And it was approximately 41 hours after the tragedgy first occured.

Donger
01-04-2006, 01:23 PM
No that was me. And it was approximately 41 hours after the tragedgy first occured.

And right about the time that you learned that all but one had died, yes?

KCTitus
01-04-2006, 01:23 PM
I do know that Rush Limbaugh was practically giddy all day today. He sounds like he won a prize or something out of this. Ah the state of politics in America.

He was giddy about 12 miners dying? You've got to be kidding...that's beyond unconscionable.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:23 PM
and the media caught wind of it....
and reported the rumors as facts. That was their mistake.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:26 PM
And right about the time that you learned that all but one had died, yes?
2+ hours after they reported the 12 had died.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:26 PM
He was giddy about 12 miners dying? You've got to be kidding...that's beyond unconscionable.
Probably giddy in the same way Donger was when he tried to smear me on this thread.

tk13
01-04-2006, 01:26 PM
No, the governor was among the famillies and when the "party" broke out because of the back-channel (cell phone) annoucement was made by family members in the church. He left immediately to go up to confirm what the families had heard and were celebrating. He didn't "say" anything about it.
He gave the thumbs up and was quoted in USA Today, was he not?

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:27 PM
He gave the thumbs up and was quoted in USA Today, was he not?
What was his quote?

KCTitus
01-04-2006, 01:29 PM
Probably giddy in the same way Donger was when he tried to smear me on this thread.

Donger didnt need to do anything...you did it all yourself.

tk13
01-04-2006, 01:29 PM
What was his quote?
Twelve US coal miners trapped for more than 40 hours underground have been found alive a few hours after a body was pulled from a tunnel full of poisonous gas, West Virginia Governor, Joe Manchin announced.

"They told us they have 12 alive," Manchin, giving the thumbs-up sign, told family members of the trapped miners as he left the Sago Baptist Church where they were gathered since a blast in a tunnel trapped the 13 miners Monday morning.

"We have some people that are going to need medical attention," the governor said shortly before ambulances were seen leaving the mine entrance, apparently taking injured miners to local hospitals.

Cochise
01-04-2006, 01:33 PM
No, it was the other way around. The governor was in the church with the people when they started saying 12 are alive and celebrated with the families... and the media caught wind of it....

What was said on the radio this morning was that someone who worked in the mine and was familiar with the rescue situation was calling some family member with inside info - unauthorized - from conversations he was overhearing in the 'command center'. The story was that this individual made a mistake in reporting to the family that the miners had been found alive when in reality, they had been found but personnel were on their way to check vital signs and evaluate them. So when this person prematurely called a family member, they erroneously reported what they thought they had overheard, and the governor got his information from one of these family members.

That's the version I heard, anyway, no warranty, could be right or wrong or erroneous in my recollection.

Donger
01-04-2006, 01:34 PM
2+ hours after they reported the 12 had died.

Thank you. Sorry, I suppose that we just disagree, but I find it amazing that after that amount of time, you could say something like "I've lost any sympathy I had" for the relatives.

Donger
01-04-2006, 01:34 PM
Probably giddy in the same way Donger was when he tried to smear me on this thread.

Me thinks jAZ doth protest too much.

You smeared yourself.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 01:38 PM
What was said on the radio this morning was that someone who worked in the mine and was familiar with the rescue situation was calling some family member with inside info - unauthorized - from conversations he was overhearing in the 'command center'. The story was that this individual made a mistake in reporting to the family that the miners had been found alive when in reality, they had been found but personnel were on their way to check vital signs and evaluate them. So when this person prematurely called a family member, they erroneously reported what they thought they had overheard, and the governor got his information from one of these family members.

That's the version I heard, anyway, no warranty, could be right or wrong or erroneous in my recollection.

That is what I heard on the radio and CNN this morning.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 01:38 PM
Twelve US coal miners trapped for more than 40 hours underground have been found alive a few hours after a body was pulled from a tunnel full of poisonous gas, West Virginia Governor, Joe Manchin announced.

"They told us they have 12 alive," Manchin, giving the thumbs-up sign, told family members of the trapped miners as he left the Sago Baptist Church where they were gathered since a blast in a tunnel trapped the 13 miners Monday morning.

"We have some people that are going to need medical attention," the governor said shortly before ambulances were seen leaving the mine entrance, apparently taking injured miners to local hospitals.
Yeah, that was a bad idea on his part.

His information was 2nd hand (not official). He should have said nothing and confirmed it himself (or his people).

There are only 4 parties that have a responsibility to get the information correct.

1) The rescuers
2) The company
3) The governor
4) The media

It seems that in one way or another they each failed to uphold that responsibilty.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 01:42 PM
According to AP:

But late Tuesday night, families began streaming out of the church, yelling "They're alive!" The church's bells began ringing and families embraced, as politicians proclaimed word of the apparent rescue a miracle.

As an ambulance drove away from the mine carrying what families believed was the first survivor, they applauded, not yet knowing there were no others.

Though the governor announced that there were 12 survivors, he later indicated he was uncertain about the news. As word buzzed through the church of survivors, he tried to find out what was going on, he said.


A Terrible Mistake

"All of a sudden we heard the families in a euphoric state, and all the shouting and screaming and joyfulness, and I asked my detachments, I said, 'Do you know what's happening?' Because we were wired in and we didn't know," Manchin said.

International Coal Group Chief Executive Officer Ben Hatfield blamed the wrong information on a "miscommunication." The news spread after people overheard cell phone calls, he said. In reality, rescuers had only confirmed finding 12 miners and were checking their vital signs. At least two family members in the church said they received cell phone calls from a mine foreman.

"That information spread like wildfire, because it had come from the command center," he said.

Three hours later, Hatfield told the families that "there had been a lack of communication, that what we were told was wrong and that only one survived," said John Groves, whose brother Jerry Groves was one of the trapped miners.

"There was no apology. There was no nothing. It was immediately out the door," said Nick Helms, son of miner Terry Helms.

Chaos broke out in the church and a fight started. About a dozen state troopers and a SWAT team were positioned along the road near the church because police were concerned about violence. Witnesses said one man had to be wrestled to the ground when he lunged for mining officials.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 01:44 PM
And the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4580388.stm

How did the mine message spread?

Various accounts have started to emerge of the communications failings which led families of 11 US miners found dead to believe their loved ones were alive.
Relatives say the devastating news that only one of the West Virginia miners had survived came about three hours after they had been told 12 were alive.

The mining company said it knew within 20 minutes that initial reports of 12 survivors were incorrect, but said it was not clear at that stage how many were dead.

Inquiries are under way to find out how the wrong information was given out, as investigators await rescuers' accounts.

The tragedy raises two key questions: was the rescue team misunderstood or wrong, and why did it take so long for the families to be told?



FAMILY
Families say they were told by a company foreman that the men had been found alive.


They say they had been rejoicing for nearly three hours when they were told 11 of the 12 had not survived.


In graphics: How tragedy unfolded
Relatives want to know why officials from the mining company had waited before they broke the news.

There is intense fury.

"I feel that we were lied to all along," said Anne Meredith, whose father died in the incident.

Nick Helms, a relative of one of the miners said: "They said it was miscommunication, come on. You come in and you tell all these people that have been waiting here you've got 12 guys coming out. There is no miscommunication."


WEST VIRGINIA GOVERNOR JOE MANCHIN
Governor Joe Manchin said the tragic news came more than three hours after he had been that told 12 survived the disaster.

But he said his communications team have never received confirmation that there had been survivors.

"I was with the families when all of a sudden I heard... a lot of the families start clapping and screaming, and my people, my communications people, had heard nothing and there was no confirmation."


INTERNATIONAL COAL GROUP (ICG)
ICG President Ben Hatfield said initial news that the 12 men had been found alive was "bad information".

He sought to explain how the misunderstanding occurred.

"There was a miscommunication and I don't know really know whose end it was, but there was a miscommunication, that resulted in the command centre believing they were told that there [were] 12 survivors," he said.

"And apparently the intention on the part of the rescue teams was to confirm that they had 12 individuals and they were at that point checking vital signs, trying to determine who was a survivor and who wasn't."

The information was "an incomplete evaluation at the point that it went to the command centre", he said.

"[T]hrough stray cellphone conversations it appears that this miscommunication from the rescue team underground to the command centre was picked up by various people... was relayed through cellphone communications without our ever having made a release," he added.

The company stressed it had never confirmed all 12 men were alive.

"But that information spread like wildfire because it had come from the command centre, but it was a bad information," he said.

Mr Hatfield said that the company had waited until it could determine which of the miners were dead or alive to tell the families their fate.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 02:27 PM
...I find it amazing that after that amount of time, you could say something like "I've lost any sympathy I had" for the relatives.
You are pathetic. God forbid you quote me accurrately or even take those words in context.
It was frustrating to watch because I really lost sympathy for them as a result of the interview. They weren't hearing the details though their outrage. That's understable, but it also pissed me off that the CNN guy seemed to try and feed that outrage rather than try to clarify the details and bring down their (misplaced) anger.

It's a crappy situation and I imagine that all the people involved are victim to some crappy circumstances. Obviously the families end up suffering the most, by far.
You are a fraud Donger.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 02:31 PM
Me thinks jAZ doth protest too much.

You smeared yourself.
You project nicely.

Donger
01-04-2006, 02:31 PM
I really lost sympathy for them as a result of the interview.

And you're a callous asshole, jAZ.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 02:41 PM
Yep, they (CNN) also seemed to fuel the outraged of the greiving families with misinformation.

The media is responsible for their own behavior. While the source of all of the misinformation is in fact what appears to be an honest mistake, that doesn't mean that the media behaved as they should have.

jAZ, normally you are spot on in your assessment but in this one you are just wrong.

A rescuer calls to notify someone and the conversation is overheard, a mine official then told the family members what he thought he heard, they begin to celebrate, the Gov.'s people confirm the information, the media reports it.

At which point in this sequence is the media supposed to say what they are seeing and hearing is not fact? Especially when PEOPLE IN THE KNOW WITHHELD THE TRUTH FOR THREE HOURS?

The media does more than it's share of crappy things and needs to be held accountable for them. But in this instance, they were hosed along with the families and everyone else wanting to believe the stories to be true.

You remain far out on a limb that even Rush Limbaugh, upon hearing details of the timeline, has climbed off of...

that is not a place I think you want to be.

KC Dan
01-04-2006, 02:47 PM
A rescuer calls to notify someone, a mine official then told the family members what he thought he heard, they begin to celebrate, the Gov.'s people confirm the information, the media reports.

At which point in this sequence is the media supposed to say what they are seeing and hearing is not fact? Especially when PEOPLE IN THE KNOW WITHHELD THE TRUTH FOR THREE HOURS?
How about when the media, whom are placed all over the rescue site, see live bodies come out not dead ones. God forbid we hold the media accountable........:banghead:

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 02:50 PM
How about when the media, whom are placed all over the rescue site, see live bodies come out not dead ones. God forbid we hold the media accountable........:banghead:

Sure, but then what do they report or describe about what they are seeing from the families in the church and being told by the GOV. office?

I'm sure there will be time for accountability and blame. But this haste to blame the media here has more to do with some people's own agendas vs. any real culpability based on the timeline.

KC Dan
01-04-2006, 02:57 PM
Sure, but then what do they report or describe about what they are seeing from the families in the church and being told by the GOV. office?

I'm sure there will be time for accountability and blame. But this haste to blame the media here has more to do with some people's own agendas vs. any real culpability based on the timeline.
Oh hell no! I do not just blame the media. I hope that the surviving family members can sue the living crap out of the mining company, the state and the media. They are all to blame for the misreporting of the fate of the miners. But, the mining company & state/federal inspectors are solely responsible for the mishap. I have no misgivings about who is to blame, I just refuse to give the lazy media a free pass.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 02:58 PM
jAZ, normally you are spot on in your assessment but in this one you are just wrong.

A rescuer calls to notify someone and the conversation is overheard, a mine official then told the family members what he thought he heard, they begin to celebrate, the Gov.'s people confirm the information, the media reports it.

At which point in this sequence is the media supposed to say what they are seeing and hearing is not fact? Especially when PEOPLE IN THE KNOW WITHHELD THE TRUTH FOR THREE HOURS?

The media does more than it's share of crappy things and needs to be held accountable for them. But in this instance, they were hosed along with the families and everyone else wanting to believe the stories to be true.

You remain far out on a limb that even Rush Limbaugh, upon hearing details of the timeline, has climbed off of...

that is not a place I think you want to be.
I understand your point and don't disagree with it in a broad sense, but the media could have and in this case should have reported "rumors are swirilling that 12 people are alive".

The live TV media could have and should have reported it as such. But they also face a smaller burder of accuracy in a sense as they are able to report what they are learning as they learn it. But they are responsible for reporting what they learned accurately. They need to qualify their reports appropriately.

The print media has an even higher burden, IMO because their printing schedule doesn't allow for getting it right once it goes to print. In that case, it is even more important to report the story accurately. And an accurate report would be (again) "unconfirmed reports suggest 12 found alive" or some such.

That doesn't make for a good news-paper selling headline though, so they punch it up a little in exchange for actual accuracy.

I am only holding the media accountable to the same standard that they are alway accountable for, IMO. Nothing additional.

I'm certainly not holding them responsible for the source information being false.

To give you a familiar parallel that might make some sense for you... IMO it's like the Dan Rather, Bush, Draft story.

I hold CBS and Dan Rather accountable for a failure in editorial judgement. They rushed a story and should have held themselve to a higher journalistic standard. Similarly I am not saying that Rather is responsible for any mis-information. His failure was in editorial control.

JMO.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 03:02 PM
And you're a callous asshole, jAZ.
This is exactly why you are a fraud. Hide context so that you can make your point. Nicely done.

Donger
01-04-2006, 03:05 PM
This is exactly why you are a fraud. Hide context so that you can make your point. Nicely done.

Yeah, good luck with that.

It was frustrating to watch because I really lost sympathy for them as a result of the interview. They weren't hearing the details though their outrage. That's understable, but it also pissed me off that the CNN guy seemed to try and feed that outrage rather than try to clarify the details and bring down their (misplaced) anger.

It's a crappy situation and I imagine that all the people involved are victim to some crappy circumstances. Obviously the families end up suffering the most, by far.

You really see anything in there that does NOT show you to be a callous prick?

jAZ
01-04-2006, 03:09 PM
But this haste to blame the media here has more to do with some people's own agendas vs. any real culpability based on the timeline.
I don't know about Rush's agenda (well yes I do), but my agenda is one of greater accuracy and lesser sensationalism.

The media can report "unconfirmed reports of ...". Instead they dropped that portion of the report because it takes away much of the dramatic effect and great TV (or headlines).

Screw the ratings and the sales.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 03:10 PM
You really see anything in there that does NOT show you to be a callous prick?
Yeah, quite a bit.

KC Dan
01-04-2006, 03:10 PM
I don't know about Rush's agenda (well yes I do), but my agenda is one of greater accurace and lesser sensationalism.

The media can report "unconfirmed reports of ...". Instead they dropped that portion of the report because it takes away much of the dramatic effect and great TV (or headlines).

Screw the ratings and the sales.
God, I agree with jAZ....:banghead:
I feel dirty, like I just rooted for the Bronco's.......

Iowanian
01-04-2006, 03:14 PM
Any of you guzzlers stop to think for a minute, that during those 3 hours, the Mine officials and rescue workers didn't KNOW what they had yet?

They were a mile deep into a tunnel, fighting cave in and poison gases. Its quite possible that they had good reason to believe they'd found the location of the miners, but NOT necessarily know their condition?

In the mean time, while those men are still digging and searching....the circus starts in the Baptist Bigtop.

Donger
01-04-2006, 03:14 PM
Yeah, quite a bit.

That's because you're a callous prick.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 03:16 PM
I understand your point and don't disagree with it in a broad sense, but the media could have and in this case should have reported "rumors are swirilling that 12 people are alive".

The live TV media could have and should have reported it as such. But they also face a smaller burder of accuracy in a sense as they are able to report what they are learning as they learn it. But they are responsible for reporting what they learned accurately. They need to qualify their reports appropriately.

The print media has an even higher burden, IMO because their printing schedule doesn't allow for getting it right once it goes to print. In that case, it is even more important to report the story accurately. And an accurate report would be (again) "unconfirmed reports suggest 12 found alive" or some such.

That doesn't make for a good news-paper selling headline though, so they punch it up a little in exchange for actual accuracy.

I am only holding the media accountable to the same standard that they are alway accountable for, IMO. Nothing additional.

I'm certainly not holding them responsible for the source information being false.

To give you a familiar parallel that might make some sense for you... IMO it's like the Dan Rather, Bush, Draft story.

I hold CBS and Dan Rather accountable for a failure in editorial judgement. They rushed a story and should have held themselve to a higher journalistic standard. Similarly I am not saying that Rather is responsible for any mis-information. His failure was in editorial control.

JMO.

IIRC from my old journalism classes, the minimal standard of confirmation of a story was two independent sources giving the same information. In this instance, you have the Gov.'s office and their contacts with the mine and the family members who received phone calls from the mine officials. Each would count as a different source. By journalistic standards, especially those evolving due to the nature of live TV, they seemed to meet the criteria for reporting a confirmed story.

Ideally, they would have had immediate confirmation or denial from the mine officials regarding the story. Instead, they were allowed to believe, along with the families, that medical attendants were headed into the mine to retrieve the survivors and reunite them with their families. They were allowed to believe this for three hours...at least in front of the camera. Behind the scenes there was probably corrections going on OTR but they were not going to report THIS news until they were indeed sure of it given the misinformation already coming from the mine officials.

The print press I think could shoulder a different standard here as you rightly point out. They have the luxury of waiting for details that live TV news media do not. As such, and in retrospect, they chose the 'feel good' story immediately upon hearing it vs. actually waiting for the miners, dead or alive, to surface. I suppose you could fault them for their haste in getting a story to print before deadline. But you can't fault them for believing false sources when everyone but the rescuers and mine officials knew the truth for three hours after the story of the miners surviving initially broke.

I don't think Rathergate is a similiar parallel at all. Dan Rather and his staff had infinite moments to investigate, reinvestigate, confirm, reconfirm, and source and resource. They, apparently, chose to use minimal sourcing and did not follow basic accepted standards of journalism in their reporting. Example, not finding two different handwriting experts to confirm their findings. The problem with the Rathergate is the incompetence in the reporting detracts from the possible true facts within the actual story. No coincidence, I'm sure.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 03:51 PM
God, I agree with jAZ....:banghead:
I feel dirty, like I just rooted for the Bronco's.......
This is not as uncommon as people in the DC like the think. I've been saying this in every media discussion for 4 years now.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 03:57 PM
IIRC from my old journalism classes, the minimal standard of confirmation of a story was two independent sources giving the same information.
I believe you are correct, and in any respect I accept that as a reasonable standard for this discussion.
In this instance, you have the Gov.'s office and their contacts with the mine and the family members who received phone calls from the mine officials. Each would count as a different source. By journalistic standards, especially those evolving due to the nature of live TV, they seemed to meet the criteria for reporting a confirmed story.
How would anyone consider those 3 different sources "independent" by any measure? There was a single source for any information about the status of the miners. That's the rescue team. They were also reporting to a single source. That's the command center. The family got their info from the command center - that's DEpendant. The governor got his information from the families - that also is DEpendant.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 04:03 PM
Ideally, they would have had immediate confirmation or denial from the mine officials regarding the story. Instead, they were allowed to believe, along with the families, that medical attendants were headed into the mine to retrieve the survivors and reunite them with their families. They were allowed to believe this for three hours...at least in front of the camera. Behind the scenes there was probably corrections going on OTR but they were not going to report THIS news until they were indeed sure of it given the misinformation already coming from the mine officials.
I'd say that this was an acceptable decision, even though it caused frustration in retrospect. Once you find out the first reports you received were incorrect, and once you realize that the incorrect information likely leaked out... (about 20 minutes after the first false report), I too would continue the effort to stop ANY dissemination of information until its confirmed. No option at this point is ideal, and the choices (update with partially confirmed bad news or don't provide any official update until fully confirmed). And either choice is defensible, IMO.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 04:07 PM
I don't think Rathergate is a similiar parallel at all. Dan Rather and his staff had infinite moments to investigate, reinvestigate, confirm, reconfirm, and source and resource. They, apparently, chose to use minimal sourcing and did not follow basic accepted standards of journalism in their reporting. Example, not finding two different handwriting experts to confirm their findings.
This is exactly why they are the same. The media rushed by using minimal sourcing and WITHOUT following basic accepted standards of journalism by ignoring the "indepedant" qualifier in those standards. Rather ignored only slightly different standards, but the two are similar enough for a legit comparison.
The problem with the Rathergate is the incompetence in the reporting detracts from the possible true facts within the actual story. No coincidence, I'm sure.
While that's a different discussion, I agree.

memyselfI
01-04-2006, 04:53 PM
I believe you are correct, and in any respect I accept that as a reasonable standard for this discussion.

How would anyone consider those 3 different sources "independent" by any measure? There was a single source for any information about the status of the miners. That's the rescue team. They were also reporting to a single source. That's the command center. The family got their info from the command center - that's DEpendant. The governor got his information from the families - that also is DEpendant.

Actually, I'm counting them as two different sources. One would be the Gov. office with his people in contact with the command center. The other would be people inside the command center making cell phone calls to family members.

From the media reports I've read there was someone on the phone calling people from the command center, the GOV. there confirming the information, and then shortly thereafter was a different gentleman coming in saying the rescuers were now pulling out people and they would be reunited shortly before going to the hospital for evaluation.

Clearly, the families had reason to believe, based on the different number of angles this information was coming from, that the information was true. Then again, as I pointed out before, if they were not so deeply invested in hopes for a miracle they might have remained skeptical given the mine's previous disregard for their safety...but that is a sidebar.

If the media had someone stationed inside the command center or inside the rescue operation and reported this untrue information as fact then you could rightly fault them for reporting something irresponsibly. But that does not appear to be the case. And the fact that the media were left with this story being circulated worldwide for THREE HOURS leaves one to believe that they were either being extremely cautious in not reporting the deaths until they were able to confirm three hours later. Or, that they were also duped for three hours. Either way, I'm not finding much blame for the live media and this story. The print media, I think you have a legitimate beef.

But the 24/7 cable outlets simply reported the best they could with the information they were being given. I don't believe any one of those journalists would have knowingly reported false information to get the hopes of the families and the nations hopes up just to break a story. Sorry, I don't believe the media are the vilians some on the fringe of the political spectrum try to paint them to be.

stevieray
01-04-2006, 04:56 PM
Batman and Catwoman are here to save the day!

ROFL

This is just another example of the effect women have had on the media and our society.

Th news has become more like watching Ricki Lake instead of Walter Cronkite.

jAZ
01-04-2006, 05:44 PM
D.enise, this is a good example of how I think the media (print in particular) *should* have handled the initial unconfirmed reports. It's a sad day when I have to use a fantasy football website to demonstrate what quality reporting looks like.

gblowfish
01-04-2006, 06:26 PM
Here's an editorial in today's Wheeling, WV newspaper:
http://www.news-register.net/edit/story/014202006_edt01.asp

old_geezer
01-04-2006, 06:44 PM
I haven't bothered to read this whole thread so my question may have already been asked and/or answered but I'm curious;

12 Trapped Miners in West Virginia discussion

What were they talking about?