PDA

View Full Version : So what is the problem with Gunther?


ct
01-05-2006, 09:51 AM
He didn't play the corners up near the LOS, as is usually his MO. But seriously folks, when we know our DLine cannot pressure the QB consistently, seems to me we had no choice but to CYA by playing more of a loose coverage scheme to avoid getting burned badly.

What is the issue with Gun staying as DC?

Count Alex's Losses
01-05-2006, 09:52 AM
His best defense was no better than Robinson's best defense.

Chiefs fans crucified Robinson.

FringeNC
01-05-2006, 09:57 AM
How about the fact that Gun had the worst D in the league cumulatively over the period he was here. What more needs to be said?

harpes
01-05-2006, 10:00 AM
Hell the problem was we all expected miracles. Robinson left us with one of the worst defenses ever and we all wanted to believe everything would instantly get better with the Gun. His players didnt respond to him. He is a great defensive genius but maybe the players are just so "Damn Good" they dont need someone like Gun around.

nascher
01-05-2006, 10:03 AM
almost no improvement on defense it got a little better this year but not enough.

FringeNC
01-05-2006, 10:05 AM
He is a great defensive genius


:bong:

ct
01-05-2006, 10:11 AM
How about the fact that Gun had the worst D in the league cumulatively over the period he was here. What more needs to be said?

1st go round, or currently? I'd like to see something to back this up.

Mr. Kotter
01-05-2006, 10:14 AM
How about the fact that Gun had the worst D in the league cumulatively over the period he was here. What more needs to be said?

Link?

I mean if you had said, "one of the worst".....

eazyb81
01-05-2006, 10:15 AM
Gun has done nothing since DT died. Even after Carl went out and got the players from his "wish list" to make us a top defense, he still couldn't get them to perform.

Who's going to be on his "wish list" this year? Shawn Merriman, Champ Bailey, and Marcus Stroud? Maybe we can be a top 20 defense then.

ct
01-05-2006, 10:21 AM
Hell the problem was we all expected miracles. Robinson left us with one of the worst defenses ever and we all wanted to believe everything would instantly get better with the Gun. His players didnt respond to him. He is a great defensive genius but maybe the players are just so "Damn Good" they dont need someone like Gun around.

Personally I saw some significant improvement, but certainly not enough. Fan expectations were definitely inflated, mine included.

Our rush defense was pretty good, with a couple embarrassing exceptions. And following the worst of those embarrassments, the Giants fiasco, the players responded by allowing 10 points in 2 games to 2 playoff contenders. You're telling me they didn't respond to him?

My only issue was the scheme employed did not at all match what was expected.

ct
01-05-2006, 10:26 AM
Gun has done nothing since DT died. Even after Carl went out and got the players from his "wish list" to make us a top defense, he still couldn't get them to perform.

Who's going to be on his "wish list" this year? Shawn Merriman, Champ Bailey, and Marcus Stroud? Maybe we can be a top 20 defense then.

One of those on his wish list, Kendrell Bell, was not the player advertised. Is he not healthy? Lost that reckless passion they loved so much? Just simply not as good as they thought? I do fault Gun on this, but let's face it, he's not the 1st FA to be a dissappointment for his new team. Bell's contract is not a horrible one, and I'm not throwing somebody under the bus over one missed FA signing.

FringeNC
01-05-2006, 10:27 AM
Link?

I mean if you had said, "one of the worst".....

Add Gun's rankings together, and find a team who is worse.

B_Ambuehl
01-05-2006, 10:27 AM
The main problem with Gunther is, even going back to the 90's, he always played a gambling scheme that either looks really good or looks really bad. It's the 180 degree opposite of the bend but don't break philosophy. It's the kill or break philosophy really. Gunther wants to kill the running game and kill the quarterback....none of this "well we want to take away the big play and by doing that we'll allow some short stuff"..... No sir, Gun wants to kill everything.

That is both the strength of this defensive football scheme and it's weakness. In order to stop runs for no gain you have to have everybody running to the ballcarrier at the snap. That leaves you succceptible to play action and misdirection. In order to get a bunch of sacks you have to blitz 8 leaving receivers one on one down the field. That leaves you succeptible to big passing gains down the field.

Now, the problem is, back in the 90's Gunther had excellent football players who could run that scheme and get something like 9 kills for every break. That means 9 tackles for no gain, or quarterback knockdowns, pressures, INTs , or sacks per every long play allowed. With the defenders on this football team, however, that figure was more like 50/50. With good players you might get 9 positive defensive plays per every 30 yard completion down the field but with this recent KC Chiefs football team, all they really did was lead the league in big plays of over 30 yards allowed. Quite simply it's a combination of the game evolving and a lack of talent on this defensive football team.

Now, to compound the problem, Gun did at times try to revert to more of a "bend but don't break" philosophy. The problem with that is he isn't an expert on it so it was never really effective for him.

Mr. Kotter
01-05-2006, 10:32 AM
Add Gun's rankings together, and find a team who is worse.

You made the assertion. I was just wondering where you got it.....

ct
01-05-2006, 10:41 AM
The main problem with Gunther is, even going back to the 90's, he always played a gambling scheme that either looks really good or looks really bad. It's the 180 degree opposite of the bend but don't break philosophy. It's the kill or break philosophy really. Gunther wants to kill the running game and kill the quarterback....none of this "well we want to take away the big play and by doing that we'll allow some short stuff"..... No sir, Gun wants to kill everything.

That is both the strength of this defensive football scheme and it's weakness. In order to stop runs for no gain you have to have everybody running to the ballcarrier at the snap. That leaves you succceptible to play action and misdirection. In order to get a bunch of sacks you have to blitz 8 leaving receivers one on one down the field. That leaves you succeptible to big passing gains down the field.

Now, the problem is, back in the 90's Gunther had excellent football players who could run that scheme and get something like 9 kills for every break. That means 9 tackles for no gain, or quarterback knockdowns, pressures, INTs , or sacks per every long play allowed. With the defenders on this football team, however, that figure was more like 50/50. With good players you might get 9 positive defensive plays per every 30 yard completion down the field but with this recent KC Chiefs football team, all they really did was lead the league in big plays of over 30 yards allowed. Quite simply it's a combination of the game evolving and a lack of talent on this defensive football team.

Now, to compound the problem, Gun did at times try to revert to more of a "bend but don't break" philosophy. The problem with that is he isn't an expert on it so it was never really effective for him.

Well said, and I agree. W/out DT, Hasty and Carter, things just don't work out as well. It all starts for Gun's D up front, and we don't have the playmakers up front. We might have half the playmakers we need, but that makes a big assumption that Sims can play like he should. Dalton didn't get the job done, and Hicks is a steady but unspectacular DE, who does not fit what Gun needs from that position. Give this defense a double team gobbling DTackle, and a fresh young playmaker at RDE, and we might be in bidness. Still have doubts on Bell and more speed at Safety, too.

FA Seymour at DT
DE, SS in the draft
Bell/Barber may have to do at OLB

Still need OT, WR, RB on the other side of the ball.

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 10:41 AM
he showed no signs of knowing how to adjust to make the defense any better. we have some personnel weaknesses and he couldn't do anything about it.

In fact his scheme seem to play more to those weakness than away from them.

shaneo69
01-05-2006, 10:43 AM
His best defense was no better than Robinson's best defense.

Chiefs fans crucified Robinson.

Here's the difference, dumbass. Robinson's defenses went backwards each year.

Gunther's defense actually improved from 27 ppg to 20 ppg this past year.

And they still have 4 positions that need to be upgraded.

Warrior5
01-05-2006, 10:44 AM
Gun’s Defense DID improve this last year; I realize that stats never tell the whole story, and who can account for the defensive debacles in Dallas and NY. But to quote DV’s buzzword “ascending”, here are some 04-05 comparisons for everyone to chew on:

04 Score D – 27 ppg (29) vs 05 Score D – 20.3 ppg (16)
04 Rush D – 115 ypg (12) vs 05 Rush D – 98 ypg (7)
04 Pass D – 263 ypg (32) vs 05 Pass D – 230 ypg (30)
04 Takeaways – 20 (28) vs 05 Takeaways – 31 (8)

DT, Bell’s status, blitz scheme, and CB utilization must be addressed, but personally I’d give Gun another year.

Good thread; please carry on.

brent102fire
01-05-2006, 10:51 AM
The Players are buying into Gun's scheme as well as learning it and becoming comfortable playing within it. Gun is a proven DC, just look at some of his D's. If the Chiefs lose Gun, the D will definately take steps backwards no matter who the next DC is. Keep Gun!

shaneo69
01-05-2006, 10:52 AM
I think what we found out this year is that our offense wasn't as great as Vermiel has made it out to be. Everyone complains about Gunther's defense playing like crap against good offenses on the road, but our offense also didn't show up against good defenses on the road.

Everybody said we just needed to get to middle-of-the-pack on defense, and we'd win a Super Bowl. Well, we were exactly middle-of-the-pack in points allowed (the most important defensive stat), yet we still missed the playoffs.

Our offense was weak at Denver, weak at SD, weak at NYG, and weak at Buffalo. The offense cost us as much as the defense did.

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 10:52 AM
DT, Bell’s status, blitz scheme, and CB utilization must be addressed, but personally I’d give Gun another year.

Good thread; please carry on.
understood ... but i don't know that Gunther is capable of making those adjustments.

i don't dislike gunther ... i just think we can do better.

Soupnazi
01-05-2006, 01:50 PM
Here's the difference, dumbass. Robinson's defenses went backwards each year.

Gunther's defense actually improved from 27 ppg to 20 ppg this past year.

And they still have 4 positions that need to be upgraded.

Couldn't agree more. The D was significantly better, in what matters, which is ppg. Why doesn't anybody talk about the fact that the offense took a step backward this year in ppg? Whoo-hoo, we're the number one offense based on yards, but it doesn't count for jack.

We've run through 2 accomplished defensive coordinators now. When are people going to admit that the players are the major issue and not the minds of the people who've coordinated the units?

Hell, was Saunders any less of a genius when Roaf was out and we couldn't keep Aunt Jemima from coming off the edge and killing Trent?

This defensive teams needs at least 4 upgrades and we'll get there.

milkman
01-05-2006, 02:49 PM
Well said, and I agree. W/out DT, Hasty and Carter, things just don't work out as well. It all starts for Gun's D up front, and we don't have the playmakers up front. We might have half the playmakers we need, but that makes a big assumption that Sims can play like he should. Dalton didn't get the job done, and Hicks is a steady but unspectacular DE, who does not fit what Gun needs from that position. Give this defense a double team gobbling DTackle, and a fresh young playmaker at RDE, and we might be in bidness. Still have doubts on Bell and more speed at Safety, too.

FA Seymour at DT
DE, SS in the draft
Bell/Barber may have to do at OLB

Still need OT, WR, RB on the other side of the ball.

Here's the problem.

What you are saying is that in order for Gun's scheme to succeed, he has have top flight talent at almost every position on the field.

Hell, any freakin' moron can have success with superior talent everywhere on the field.

Find a DC that can adapt his philosophy to work with less than 9 freakin' star quality players on his D.

In today's NFL, with FA and player movement, you're lucky if you can put 3-4 stars on the field at the same time.

SLAG
01-05-2006, 03:02 PM
Here's the problem.

What you are saying is that in order for Gun's scheme to succeed, he has have top flight talent at almost every position on the field.

Hell, any freakin' moron can have success with superior talent everywhere on the field.

Find a DC that can adapt his philosophy to work with less than 9 freakin' star quality players on his D.

In today's NFL, with FA and player movement, you're lucky if you can put 3-4 stars on the field at the same time.


I agree 100%

Lbedrock1
01-05-2006, 03:07 PM
Here is some Good news Bad news about GUN.
Bad News (for those wanting Gun gone) he will be Our D.C. next year
Good News(For those wanting Gun to stay) You will get your wish.
Remember the teams that were going after GUN when he came to KC?
Jets were one of them and that is one of the reasons CP is going after Herm, this will allow him to keep GUN in place without friction. Im one that finds GUN staying to be good news because I believe that he can build our D to be top 10 again. This is how I see it Year 1- had to change the mindset of the D and get them away from the GROB type of play. year 2- Got some of the players he wanted but since it was their first year they had to get comfortable with each other especially in the secondary which is why we got torched for those passing yards.
Year-3 will be the one we all were looking for which is what carl believes. This why he wants a coach that will want to keep GUN in place.

milkman
01-05-2006, 03:10 PM
Here is some Good news Bad news about GUN.
Bad News (for those wanting Gun gone) he will be Our D.C. next year
Good News(For those wanting Gun to stay) You will get your wish.
Remember the teams that were going after GUN when he came to KC?
Jets were one of them and that is one of the reasons CP is going after Herm, this will allow him to keep GUN in place without friction. Im one that finds GUN staying to be good news because I believe that he can build our D to be top 10 again. This is how I see it Year 1- had to change the mindset of the D and get them away from the GROB type of play. year 2- Got some of the players he wanted but since it was their first year they had to get comfortable with each other especially in the secondary which is why we got torched for those passing yards.
Year-3 will be the one we all were looking for which is what carl believes. This why he wants a coach that will want to keep GUN in place.

Why is Gun the only freakin' defensive geniouscps that needs 3 years to puta good defense on the field?

Coogs
01-05-2006, 03:11 PM
Here is some Good news Bad news about GUN.
Bad News (for those wanting Gun gone) he will be Our D.C. next year
Good News(For those wanting Gun to stay) You will get your wish.
Remember the teams that were going after GUN when he came to KC?
Jets were one of them and that is one of the reasons CP is going after Herm, this will allow him to keep GUN in place without friction. Im one that finds GUN staying to be good news because I believe that he can build our D to be top 10 again. This is how I see it Year 1- had to change the mindset of the D and get them away from the GROB type of play. year 2- Got some of the players he wanted but since it was their first year they had to get comfortable with each other especially in the secondary which is why we got torched for those passing yards.
Year-3 will be the one we all were looking for which is what carl believes. This why he wants a coach that will want to keep GUN in place.

If this is true, then just put me down for a no for Edwards. If keeping Gun is CP's reason for getting Edwards then we need to look for college coaches.... or Rivera.

Lbedrock1
01-05-2006, 03:12 PM
Why is Gun the only freakin' defensive geniouscps that needs 3 years to puta good defense on the field?
Im not sure why it worked out that way but it did. I say at least give the man one more year and if we don't improve I will get the rope that you want to hang him with.

Coogs
01-05-2006, 03:23 PM
Im not sure why it worked out that way but it did. I say at least give the man one more year and if we don't improve I will get the rope that you want to hang him with.


While we are starting over with a new HC, let him bring in the DC he wants.

milkman
01-05-2006, 03:32 PM
Im not sure why it worked out that way but it did. I say at least give the man one more year and if we don't improve I will get the rope that you want to hang him with.

The thing is, Gun isn't a defensive genious.
Even with all the talent he had to work with in the 90s, his defenses were inconsistent from year to year.

The defense started it's downward spiral in Gun's last season as DC, and continued it's downward spiral in Gun's 2 years as HC.

Hell, one could argue that Spinner wasn't able to fix what Gun broke.

shaneo69
01-05-2006, 04:40 PM
Why is Gun the only freakin' defensive geniouscps that needs 3 years to puta good defense on the field?

How many years did it take Ron Meeks to turn Indy's defense around?

Count Alex's Losses
01-05-2006, 04:41 PM
How many years did it take Ron Meeks to turn Indy's defense around?

How many years did it take Donnie Henderson?

Greg Williams?

Larry Coyer?

Mecca
01-05-2006, 04:46 PM
Let's just spend a billion dollars on defensive players, that's about what it's gonna take to have a decent defense at this rate. It's quite obvious Gunthers DC ability isn't good he was made by great players in his first go round here.

shaneo69
01-05-2006, 04:51 PM
How many years did it take Donnie Henderson?

Greg Williams?

Larry Coyer?

I'm thinking those guys had a little more to work with when they took over. Henderson took over for Cottrell, didn't he? And the Jets defense has 1st round picks like Ellis, Abraham, Robertson, and Vilma that actually play. Plus the FO went out and signed David Barrett, Eric Barton, Ty Law, etc.

Coyer took over for Rhodes, and the Broncos defense was already good.

I don't remember who Greggggg took over for (Kurt?), but he has Dan Snyder buy him any player he wants.

Mr. Kotter
01-05-2006, 04:52 PM
I'm thinking those guys had a little more to work with when they took over. Henderson took over for Cottrell, didn't he? And the Jets defense has 1st round picks like Ellis, Abraham, Robertson, and Vilma that actually play. Plus the FO went out and signed David Barrett, Eric Barton, Ty Law, etc.

Coyer took over for Rhodes, and the Broncos defense was already good.

I don't remember who Greggggg took over for (Kurt?), but he has Dan Snyder buy him any player he wants.

A little more to work with? If Gun had gone to Washington or Denver in either of those situations.....I'm convinced he'd have done pretty well too.

el borracho
01-05-2006, 04:55 PM
The problem is the one area of D the Chiefs didn't upgrade this past year- the Dline. The Chiefs were counting on production from Sims and (due to injury) we didn't get it. The Chiefs desperately need better line play which means a healthy Sims, and replacements for Dalton and especially Hicks. If we upgrade those two positions (DT and DE), we will be golden.

Count Alex's Losses
01-05-2006, 04:57 PM
I'm thinking those guys had a little more to work with when they took over. Henderson took over for Cottrell, didn't he? And the Jets defense has 1st round picks like Ellis, Abraham, Robertson, and Vilma that actually play. Plus the FO went out and signed David Barrett, Eric Barton, Ty Law, etc.

Coyer took over for Rhodes, and the Broncos defense was already good.

I don't remember who Greggggg took over for (Kurt?), but he has Dan Snyder buy him any player he wants.

Yeah because Gunther didn't get any talent last offseason either.

We should just bring Robinson back. He proved he can field a good defense with a bunch of awesome talent across the board, too.

tk13
01-05-2006, 05:00 PM
I'm thinking those guys had a little more to work with when they took over. Henderson took over for Cottrell, didn't he? And the Jets defense has 1st round picks like Ellis, Abraham, Robertson, and Vilma that actually play. Plus the FO went out and signed David Barrett, Eric Barton, Ty Law, etc.

Coyer took over for Rhodes, and the Broncos defense was already good.

I don't remember who Greggggg took over for (Kurt?), but he has Dan Snyder buy him any player he wants.
We spent way more money on defense than the Jets ever did. The Jets just used draft picks and cheap value FA signings... like Eric Barton, David Barrett, even Ty Law was way below market value really. Other than that they just used draft picks across the board... Ellis, Robertson, Vilma, Victor Hobson. Heck, this year their two starting safeties were guys who were 2nd day picks the last two years, and they still had a way better pass D than we did.

FringeNC
01-05-2006, 05:04 PM
How many years did it take Ron Meeks to turn Indy's defense around?

Meeks has been #8, #10, #29, and #11.

Tribal Warfare
01-05-2006, 05:21 PM
Actually look at the Herm situation in a whole concerning the DC position. Herm wanted Gun at first, but now he has repore with Donnie Henderson. This could be a package deal, because of their mutual NFL experience with each other.

Coogs
01-05-2006, 05:59 PM
How many years did it take Ron Meeks to turn Indy's defense around?

How many did it take Ron Rivera to turn around the Bears? And I don't know how many years the Saints DC has been around, but they were dead last last season IIRC. They are several spots ahead of us this year, and I don't rmember hearing of them having a shopping list quite as long as Gun had.

Calcountry
01-05-2006, 06:07 PM
I think what we found out this year is that our offense wasn't as great as Vermiel has made it out to be. Everyone complains about Gunther's defense playing like crap against good offenses on the road, but our offense also didn't show up against good defenses on the road.

Everybody said we just needed to get to middle-of-the-pack on defense, and we'd win a Super Bowl. Well, we were exactly middle-of-the-pack in points allowed (the most important defensive stat), yet we still missed the playoffs.

Our offense was weak at Denver, weak at SD, weak at NYG, and weak at Buffalo. The offense cost us as much as the defense did.Too bad we didn't have that D 2 years ago?

ChiefsCountry
01-05-2006, 06:21 PM
I'll take Gun as the D coordinator if Edwards brings Henderson as secondary coach. The defense has gotten better. We only got our ass kicked on defense three times this year. Denver, Philly, and NY. Buffalo lose is more on the offense than defense, normally you hold a team to 14 pts you win. Our D-Line is not bad, they aren't superstars but they do a decent job. The lack of production is a pass rush.

Count Alex's Losses
01-05-2006, 06:24 PM
We only got our ass kicked on defense three times this year. Denver, Philly, and NY.

Ha!

ROFL

Did you even watch the Dallas game?

Denver pretty much blasted us in both games.

San Diego put a number on us as well.

GET REAL!

tk13
01-05-2006, 06:26 PM
How many did it take Ron Rivera to turn around the Bears? And I don't know how many years the Saints DC has been around, but they were dead last last season IIRC. They are several spots ahead of us this year, and I don't rmember hearing of them having a shopping list quite as long as Gun had.
Make no mistake... Lovie and Ron Rivera finished the Bears job, but the foundation was laid in place by Dick Jauron years before. I don't think Gun got the job done but he wasn't given anyone half as good as Urlacher and Mike Brown when he got here.

Count Alex's Losses
01-05-2006, 06:27 PM
Make no mistake... Lovie and Ron Rivera finished the Bears job, but the foundation was laid in place by Dick Jauron years before.

Dick Jauron failed us in Pittsburgh. :(

tk13
01-05-2006, 06:35 PM
Dick Jauron failed us in Pittsburgh. :(
Yep, his team gave it a good effort though, way better than everyone expected. He probably wouldn't be a horrible DC. Hard telling, he was pretty good in Jacksonville and drafted some good players in Chicago, but in Detroit they drafted offense every year, so I'm not sure he ever got a fair shot there.

brent102fire
01-05-2006, 08:23 PM
The problem is the D-Line. You could have Champ Bailey, Deion Sanders(in his Prime), Ronnie Lott and Steve Atwater in the Secondary. If you don't have the pass rush, those guys will eventually get burned. That is one of the major problems with the D this year. A Lack of a consistent pass rush. That's what hurt them the most! Get rid of Hicks and get a proven DE via FA or draft. Get a proven DT along side of Ryan Sims and keep Siavii and Dalton as backups. Jared Allen at the other DE and I think you will see a damn good D next year.

Tribal Warfare
01-05-2006, 08:43 PM
I'll take Gun as the D coordinator if Edwards brings Henderson as secondary coach.

Henderson will probably become DC, and Gun will be demoted to LB coach. This scenario is more likely IMO.

ct
01-05-2006, 08:53 PM
Well said, and I agree. W/out DT, Hasty and Carter, things just don't work out as well. It all starts for Gun's D up front, and we don't have the playmakers up front. We might have half the playmakers we need, but that makes a big assumption that Sims can play like he should. Dalton didn't get the job done, and Hicks is a steady but unspectacular DE, who does not fit what Gun needs from that position. Give this defense a double team gobbling DTackle, and a fresh young playmaker at RDE, and we might be in bidness. Still have doubts on Bell and more speed at Safety, too.

FA Seymour at DT
DE, SS in the draft
Bell/Barber may have to do at OLB

Still need OT, WR, RB on the other side of the ball.

Here's the problem.

What you are saying is that in order for Gun's scheme to succeed, he has have top flight talent at almost every position on the field.

Hell, any freakin' moron can have success with superior talent everywhere on the field.

Find a DC that can adapt his philosophy to work with less than 9 freakin' star quality players on his D.

In today's NFL, with FA and player movement, you're lucky if you can put 3-4 stars on the field at the same time.

Did I say 9? I'm sorry, thought I only mentioned 3, my bad.

And If I want even more studs than what we've got, sue me, I'm greedy like that.

Dayze
01-05-2006, 08:54 PM
I blame a lame d-line. (less Allen, of course. seems like the only guy with a motor/desire)

luckily we have a 6th overall pick coming back next year. :rolleyes:

milkman
01-05-2006, 08:56 PM
Did I say 9, I'm sorry, thought I only mentioned 3, my bad. If I want more studs than what we've got, sue me, I'm greedy like that.

I'm adding the 3 to the likes of Jared Allen, Kawika Mitchell, DJ, Surtain, and hopefully a Ryan Sims on a mission.

OK, my fault.

8.

Fruit Ninja
01-05-2006, 09:48 PM
no one mentioned that teams like Redskins and Bears had bad records and were always able to draft high and take players that are predicted to become superstars in the NFL. Chiefs have to hope one developes into one becuase we never get to draft in the top 10.

Coogs
01-06-2006, 07:48 AM
Make no mistake... Lovie and Ron Rivera finished the Bears job, but the foundation was laid in place by Dick Jauron years before. I don't think Gun got the job done but he wasn't given anyone half as good as Urlacher and Mike Brown when he got here.

Gun got most of the same guys he drafted or hand picked the first time around.... Bartee, Hicks, Wesley, Warfield, etc. So Gun basicly laid his own foundation.

MOhillbilly
01-06-2006, 08:16 AM
i cannot explain enough how important assistant coaches are that a DC/OC can work with & that can teach your 'scheme' to players of all skill levels.


Who is Gunthers-Solari?

Chief Faithful
01-06-2006, 09:50 AM
Here's the difference, dumbass. Robinson's defenses went backwards each year.

Gunther's defense actually improved from 27 ppg to 20 ppg this past year.

And they still have 4 positions that need to be upgraded.

Take it a step farther, Grob's defense went backwards each year in performance and level of talent. No position improved or even maintained as every position declined.

Grob's third year defense wasn't just bad it was the worst ever fielded by any Chiefs team in their history and one of the worst in the history of the NFL. Anyone that watched the team in the late 70's can tell you Grob's imfamous achievement of badness is monumental. Remember Marv Levy and his introduction of the WingT offense designed to keep the bad defense off the field by consuming the clock? By his third season Grob's defense was even worse than the defense inherited by Marv Levy. There is no words to describe how bad and how far the defense declined in the Grob years. It was more than just a loss of just a few key players it was a complete collapse.

By the time Gun arrived the Chiefs didn't even know what they had left or where to start. Gun's entire first year was spent evaluting talent and trying to show the team there is a different way to play. It took the team a full year to realized they needed to rebuild. The rebuilding didn't really start until end of last season. Thus, it is realistic to say Gun has only had one year into the rebuilding process and the results so far are very encouraging.

Since Gun's return there has been a gradual steady improvement of performance on the field and talent level at almost every position. The one exception has been Bell. Even returning players are starting to play better. Mitchell in particular has been very impressive.

I really believe there were some un-realistic expectations held by some fans. In every measure the defense has improved and shows signs of tremendous upside. With Grob not only did things get worse the fans were left grasping for straws of hope that something miraculous would happen to turn things around as the rest of the NFL, Media, and fans around the country laughed. The defense may not be top 10, but the laughing is coming to an end.

List me as one fan who is very pleased with what Gun has done and am excited / expecting to see the continued improvement next season. Gun did not start with a foundation on defense he started with rubble that had to be cleared so the foundation could be laid. The foundation is now in place so lets be see what Gun plans to build on it.

Coogs
01-06-2006, 10:15 AM
I really believe there were some un-realistic expectations held by some fans.

Before the season, near the end of trainging camp, AS was on a radio show. He was asked about the defense. He said something to the effect that he would be "surprised" if the defense did not rank in the top 10, and "shocked" if they were not in the top 15.

I guess AS is "shocked" at Gun's defense.

Tribal Warfare
01-06-2006, 11:40 AM
Now the question is where do the retain Gun at DC or will be demoted to LB. Then Herm picks the DC of his choice.

MOhillbilly
01-06-2006, 11:49 AM
Now the question is where do the retain Gun at DC or will be demoted to LB. Then Herm picks the DC of his choice.

im not sure he can be demoted.

shaneo69
01-06-2006, 11:59 AM
Now the question is where do the retain Gun at DC or will be demoted to LB. Then Herm picks the DC of his choice.

Herm wanted Gun to be his DC in NY before GC was hired by the Chiefs.

Henderson was his Plan B.

Chief Faithful
01-06-2006, 12:06 PM
Before the season, near the end of trainging camp, AS was on a radio show. He was asked about the defense. He said something to the effect that he would be "surprised" if the defense did not rank in the top 10, and "shocked" if they were not in the top 15.

I guess AS is "shocked" at Gun's defense.

Doesn't surprise me. It seemed like AS and DV just couldn't come to the realization that there was no talent on the defense. Even Gun's first year he had to work with the same talent because DV and CP believed they had enough talent. I still don't understand the denial from the organization during the Grob years.

Tribal Warfare
01-06-2006, 12:19 PM
Herm wanted Gun to be his DC in NY before GC was hired by the Chiefs.

Henderson was his Plan B.

Yes, but Herm has a repore with Henderson now. Therefore, that issue puts Gun at a disadvantage.

ct
01-06-2006, 03:53 PM
I'm adding the 3 to the likes of Jared Allen, Kawika Mitchell, DJ, Surtain, and hopefully a Ryan Sims on a mission.

OK, my fault.

8.

So add all the guys you want, but all I mentioned was DT, Hasty and Carter. Seriously, there were no other studs on those D's after Neil Smith left.

Count Alex's Losses
01-06-2006, 06:13 PM
Take it a step farther, Grob's defense went backwards each year in performance and level of talent.


Wrong.