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View Full Version : What's going to happen to our offense when AS, Solari, and company are gone?


chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 01:15 PM
Just curious. Looking at all the news it looks like CP is going to clean house! With Vermiel's departure he has decided not to continue with the direction the team was going. Our offense has been in the Top 3 the last 5 years and our D appears to have improved and both would continue to improve next year with some additional talent added either through free agency and the upcoming draft.

With the upcoming massive changes in our coaching staff, it could prove costly next year to the Chiefs resulting in the team taking a large step back despite the talent pool we have.

New coach, new philosophy, new staff, new everything! The lack of consistency could be very detrimental to the players.

Promoting AS to the HC seems to be the smartest move right now and it will give us the best chance to be very competitive next year and beyond. If we don't choose this direction, we could see more frustration for another 5 years!

This is not the time to pull the rip cord. Why give up draft picks now when what we need most is good young potential franchise players to develop for the future?

Thoughts?

jspchief
01-05-2006, 01:16 PM
My guess is the 8 pro bolwers we have on offense are going to instantly become inept.

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 01:17 PM
what kind worries me is that Herm Edward might clean house on the offensive side of the ball and actually KEEP some of the guys on defense.

siberian khatru
01-05-2006, 01:19 PM
Everyone just assumes that Al Saunders would be a good head coach. Just like it was simple for Gunther to move from DC to HC, so we could keep that 90s defense intact. All of a sudden, HC responsibilities triggered the worst of Gun's personality tics. He starts diagramming seating charts at 3 in the morning.

the Talking Can
01-05-2006, 01:19 PM
Solari, hopefully, isn't going anywhere.

FringeNC
01-05-2006, 01:22 PM
My guess is the 8 pro bolwers we have on offense are going to instantly become inept.

Have Gun remained in charge, do you think we would have had the best offense in football over the past 5 years? Just asking...

You make sound as if coaching doesn't matter at all....

jspchief
01-05-2006, 01:22 PM
what kind worries me is that Herm Edward might clean house on the offensive side of the ball and actually KEEP some of the guys on defense.Yea. It's perfectly reasonable to think that an experienced NFL coach would "clean house" on a top 2 offense, while clinging to a #32 defense.

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 01:23 PM
Everyone just assumes that Al Saunders would be a good head coach
i don't think everyone is assuming that at all.


people hope that al saunders can maintain the offense while changing it up on defense.


are you assuming that Herm edwards would be able to maintain our current offense?



hope ≠ assume

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 01:24 PM
Yea. It's perfectly reasonable to think that an experienced NFL coach would "clean house" on a top 2 offense, while clinging to a #32 defense.

i think that if Herm edwards doesn't bring Donnie henderson with him there is an extremely good chance that Edwards take Carl's suggestion to keep gunther cunningham.

jspchief
01-05-2006, 01:26 PM
Have Gun remained in charge, do you think we would have had the best offense in football over the past 5 years? Just asking...

You make sound as if coaching doesn't matter at all....You're jumping to conclusions if that's what you think I'm saying.

Do I think Gun would have built this offense? Of course not.

Do I think that an offense with 8 pro-bowlers on it is going to crumble with a new coaching situation? No f*cking way.

If this offense begins to falter, it will be due to age, not coaching. It won't take a genious to move the ball when working with 3 pro-bowl O-linemen, 2 Pro-bowl RBs, 1 pro-bowl QB, and a pro-bowl TE. Will we continue to be #1 in the league? Maybe not. but I don't think we're just going to start sucking because Saunders is gone.

jiveturkey
01-05-2006, 01:27 PM
i think that if Herm edwards doesn't bring Donnie henderson with him there is an extremely good chance that Edwards take Carl's suggestion to keep gunther cunningham.Even if he keeps Gun I would think that the rest of the DV Defensive Clowns would be gone and Gun would be able to pick his own assistants.

I guess we are now in an assumtion based debate.

Your turn. :)

siberian khatru
01-05-2006, 01:27 PM
i don't think everyone is assuming that at all.


people hope that al saunders can maintain the offense while changing it up on defense.


are you assuming that Herm edwards would be able to maintain our current offense?



hope ≠ assume

I think that's exactly what people are assuming -- or overlooking. That HC duties are different and they sometimes change people. Many coordinators have failed as HC (and many have succeeded).

"people hope that al saunders can maintain the offense while changing it up on defense." Exactly why Gunther was promoted -- just slide on over to a different chair, all the strengths remain, all the weaknesses improve. Simple. Continuity.

I'm not assuming anything about Herm. But as others have stated here and elsewhere, it would be a blinding act of stupidity and hubris on both Herm's and Carl's part to scrap one of the league's best offenses while maintaining its worst defense.

jiveturkey
01-05-2006, 01:28 PM
It's possible that a new 0-Cord would allow Trent to call his owns plays from time to time instead of taking time outs all of the time.

This is of course another assumtion.

jspchief
01-05-2006, 01:29 PM
i think that if Herm edwards doesn't bring Donnie henderson with him there is an extremely good chance that Edwards take Carl's suggestion to keep gunther cunningham.Ok. It's still a leap in logic to say we're going to clean house on the offense.

You might as well brace yourself for us keeping most of our current defensive personnell, at least for '06. This team has always been on a two year cycle in terms of FA signings, so any changes are likely going to have to come from draft picks and developed bench players.

Count Alex's Losses
01-05-2006, 01:30 PM
I hope Trent Green is smart enough to override Herm Edwards when it's 3rd and 3 from the 30 yard line and actually run a play.

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 01:35 PM
"people hope that al saunders can maintain the offense while changing it up on defense." Exactly why Gunther was promoted -- just slide on over to a different chair, all the strengths remain, all the weaknesses improve. Simple. Continuity.
i don't think that gunther had much to maintain...

back when he had a ready made pass rush with with neil smith and derrick thomas to go along with 2 cornerbacks in hasty and carter his job was relative simple.

he also had a defensive head coach to hold his hand in marty shottenheimer.


the defense has had issues ever since, even with gunther.


on the other hand, i think with al saunders the offensive players have over achieved ... the system has made them better.

can saunders do the same without Vermeil?

can saunders be one of these HC/OC's?



i don't know ... i hope so



i've Never been too impressed with Herm edwards as a head coach in NY.

siberian khatru
01-05-2006, 01:37 PM
i don't think that gunther had much to maintain...

back when he had a ready made pass with with neil smith and derrick thomas to go along with 2 cornerbacks in hasty and carter his job was relative simple.

he also had a defensive head coach to hold his hand in marty shottenheimer.


the defense has had issues ever since, even with gunther.


on the other hand, i think al saunders the offensive players have over achieved ... the system has made them better.

can saunders do the same without Vermeil?

can saunders be one of these HC/OC's?



i don't know ... i hope so


I agree about the Gun D. In hindsight. At the time though, they thought it was good enough to make another run. They wanted continuity. Just remove Marty from the equation, we can return to the 13-3 days of 1997. That was their thinking. They were dead wrong.

The stuff about Saunders is all valid.

jspchief
01-05-2006, 01:39 PM
i don't think that gunther had much to maintain...

back when he had a ready made pass with with neil smith and derrick thomas to go along with 2 cornerbacks in hasty and carter his job was relative simple.

he also had a defensive head coach to hold his hand in marty shottenheimer.


the defense has had issues ever since, even with gunther.


on the other hand, i think al saunders the offensive players have over achieved ... the system has made them better.

can saunders do the same without Vermeil?

can saunders be one of these HC/OC's?



i don't know ... i hope so



i've Never been too impressed with Herm edwards as a head coach in NY.I don't think Saunders had that much to maintain...

Back when he had a ready made running game with Larry Johnson and Priest Holmes to go along with Will Shields, Willie Roaf, and Brian Waters, his job was relatively simple.

He also had an offensive head coach to hold his hand, in Dick vermeil.

Coogs
01-05-2006, 01:42 PM
i don't think that gunther had much to maintain...

back when he had a ready made pass rush with with neil smith and derrick thomas to go along with 2 cornerbacks in hasty and carter his job was relative simple.

he also had a defensive head coach to hold his hand in marty shottenheimer.


the defense has had issues ever since, even with gunther.


on the other hand, i think with al saunders the offensive players have over achieved ... the system has made them better.

can saunders do the same without Vermeil?

can saunders be one of these HC/OC's?



i don't know ... i hope so



i've Never been too impressed with Herm edwards as a head coach in NY.

He has been to the playoffs two more times than we have been in the 5 years. And he has actually won playoff games... on the road no less.

He will do fine. Our offense will be fine. How could you mess it up? D can't help but improve.

King_Chief_Fan
01-05-2006, 01:43 PM
Just curious. Looking at all the news it looks like CP is going to clean house! With Vermiel's departure he has decided not to continue with the direction the team was going. Our offense has been in the Top 3 the last 5 years and our D appears to have improved and both would continue to improve next year with some additional talent added either through free agency and the upcoming draft.

With the upcoming massive changes in our coaching staff, it could prove costly next year to the Chiefs resulting in the team taking a large step back despite the talent pool we have.

New coach, new philosophy, new staff, new everything! The lack of consistency could be very detrimental to the players.

Promoting AS to the HC seems to be the smartest move right now and it will give us the best chance to be very competitive next year and beyond. If we don't choose this direction, we could see more frustration for another 5 years!

This is not the time to pull the rip cord. Why give up draft picks now when what we need most is good young potential franchise players to develop for the future?

Thoughts?

don't fret........Carl has a plan!

sedated
01-05-2006, 01:49 PM
There are so many examples of coaching making the difference on a team, why do people continue to think otherwise?

UCF was the worst team in college football. They got O'Leary and went to a bowl game. Similar situation for Mangina at KU.

Think the Bucs would have won the Super Bowl had Gruden stayed in Oakland?

Would New England have won anything if Bellichick was still in NY?

With the wrong coach, this team will turn into sh!t faster than ENDelt and Mer take over threads. Note to KingCarl - we still have one good year left, don't ruin it.

Coogs
01-05-2006, 01:53 PM
There are so many examples of coaching making the difference on a team, why do people continue to think otherwise?

UCF was the worst team in college football. They got O'Leary and went to a bowl game. Similar situation for Mangina at KU.

Think the Bucs would have won the Super Bowl had Gruden stayed in Oakland?

Would New England have won anything if Bellichick was still in NY?

With the wrong coach, this team will turn into sh!t faster than ENDelt and Mer take over threads. Note to KingCarl - we still have one good year left, don't ruin it.

How many playoff appearance have we had in the last few years?


We really are not that good. Granted we are not that bad.... but we are not that good either.

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 01:54 PM
Our offense will be fine. How could you mess it up?

:titus:

Mr. Laz
01-05-2006, 01:57 PM
I don't think Saunders had that much to maintain...

Back when he had a ready made running game with Larry Johnson and Priest Holmes to go along with Will Shields, Willie Roaf, and Brian Waters, his job was relatively simple.

He also had an offensive head coach to hold his hand, in Dick vermeil.
maintain??? .... saunders and Vermeil built the offense they didn't just maintain it.

with marty and gunther our offense sucked even with the best offense line in the league.


btw - didn't i include Vermeil in my post about saunders as a question mark? don't know why you felt it was a point for you to make then.

chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 01:58 PM
You're jumping to conclusions if that's what you think I'm saying.

Do I think Gun would have built this offense? Of course not.

Do I think that an offense with 8 pro-bowlers on it is going to crumble with a new coaching situation? No f*cking way.

If this offense begins to falter, it will be due to age, not coaching. It won't take a genious to move the ball when working with 3 pro-bowl O-linemen, 2 Pro-bowl RBs, 1 pro-bowl QB, and a pro-bowl TE. Will we continue to be #1 in the league? Maybe not. but I don't think we're just going to start sucking because Saunders is gone.

So if the O starts to decline with who ever the HC is will you then give props to AS? Why not just promote AS now and find out for sure? Hasn't he earned at least this? To me giving up draft picks is crazy given where we are today and the fact that Vermiel left us with a pretty decent team that could do some damage next year and might go the distance.

Johnson&Johnson
01-05-2006, 02:01 PM
New coach, new philosophy, new staff, new everything! The lack of consistency could be very detrimental to the players.

Promoting AS to the HC seems to be the smartest move right now and it will give us the best chance to be very competitive next year and beyond. If we don't choose this direction, we could see more frustration for another 5 years!

Thoughts?

The lack of consistency could be detrimental? Promote AS to keep that consistency you think?

Just look back at the 1999 Rams where Vermeil won a SB and he left the team with 100% consistency... in the hands of the OFFensive CoORdinator named Mike Martz. Need I say more?

NO AL SAUNDERS! For god's sake, Detroit, Minn...hired Al already, everyday that he's sitting around worries me that King Carl might hit the panic button and offers Al the job....:shake:

jspchief
01-05-2006, 02:01 PM
So if the O starts to decline with who ever the HC is will you then give props to AS? Why not just promote AS now and find out for sure? Hasn't he earned at least this? To me giving up draft picks is crazy given where we are today and the fact that Vermiel left us with a pretty decent team that could do some damage next year and might go the distance.I already give props to Al Saunders for being a very good O-coordinator. That doesn't mean I want him as head coach.

chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 02:01 PM
He will do fine. Our offense will be fine. How could you mess it up? D can't help but improve.[/QUOTE]

Famous last words!

jspchief
01-05-2006, 02:03 PM
maintain??? .... saunders and Vermeil built the offense they didn't just maintain it.

with marty and gunther our offense sucked even with the best offense line in the league.


btw - didn't i include Vermeil in my post about saunders as a question mark? don't know why you felt it was a point for you to make then.It was a tongue in cheek response to your reasons why Cunningham wasn't a viable HC candidate back in '98. Every reason you gave could be applied to Saunders in the Vermeil era.

chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 02:06 PM
The lack of consistency could be detrimental? Promote AS to keep that consistency you think?

Just look back at the 1999 Rams where Vermeil won a SB and he left the team with 100% consistency... in the hands of the OFFensive CoORdinator named Mike Martz. Need I say more?

NO AL SAUNDERS! For god's sake, Detroit, Minn...hired Al already, everyday that he's sitting around worries me that King Carl might hit the panic button and offers Al the job....:shake:

AS deserves a shot. You can't evaluate him as an HC until he actually is one. You can't say that Martz didn't work out so that means AS won't. By the way Martz record as an HC was not too shabby. I certainly would be happy if AS could equal it if not improve upon it. Martz will be a HC for some team in the very near future probably starting next season!

Coogs
01-05-2006, 02:06 PM
Famous last words!

LJ piled up the yards when Roaf was on the sidelines. And when AS decided to finally run play action when Roaf was out, Green didn't get killed.

Offense will be fine. Defense already sucked.

And FWIW, I still don't think we can beat Indy, Cincy, and a couple of other teams in the playoffs in the AFC on the road this season. And I don't think we are a player away from beating them on the road next season with the same staff we had.

chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 02:11 PM
LJ piled up the yards when Roaf was on the sidelines. And when AS decided to finally run play action when Roaf was out, Green didn't get killed.

Offense will be fine. Defense already sucked.

And FWIW, I still don't think we can beat Indy, Cincy, and a couple of other teams in the playoffs in the AFC on the road this season. And I don't think we are a player away from beating them on the road next season with the same staff we had.

Totally disagree! I think we could be very dangerous right now if we were in the playoffs. There are many teams grateful that we are not.

Don't ****** up this team by bringing in a whole new coaching staff and philosophy. This is not the time to panic. Stay the course don't give up draft picks keep improving! Promote AS now!!!!!!!

FringeNC
01-05-2006, 02:11 PM
A case can be made that Vermeil had nothing to do with this offense. His offense was terrible until Martz got there and took it from near dead last to #1 (by the way, that's what a good coordinator does -- has immediate impact, unlike assuming we have to give Gun 3-4 years to build a respectable D). Saunders, working under Martz learned the offense, and it's Saunders not Vermeil who is the offensive guru.

Again, I am not saying that this is true. Martz was unable to maintain the high-powered offense in St. Loius more than two years I think, before it returned to earth.

The whole Vermeil, Martz, Saunders thing is interesting. How much of the credit goes to Vermeil, and how much goes to Martz/Saunders?

Johnson&Johnson
01-05-2006, 02:13 PM
AS deserves a shot. You can't evaluate him as an HC until he actually is one. You can't say that Martz didn't work out so that means AS won't. By the way Martz record as an HC was not too shabby. I certainly would be happy if AS could equal it if not improve upon it. Martz will be a HC for some team in the very near future probably starting next season!

You are not serious, are you? Only reason Martz had some success following the SB was that Vermeil left him with the whole SB team intact. Usually it takes about 2 seasons before a HC can incorporate his own philosophy into the player's mind set (thus destroy everything they used to know) - and that Martz did in the last 2 seasons. Rumor has it that Martz might get a good look by Al Davis. Yippee...I am loving that idea! That means KC will continue to own those Faders for years to come with an idiot for a HC.

No AL SAUNDERS!!!! NO NO NO

Coogs
01-05-2006, 02:52 PM
Totally disagree! I think we could be very dangerous right now if we were in the playoffs. There are many teams grateful that we are not.

Don't ****** up this team by bringing in a whole new coaching staff and philosophy. This is not the time to panic. Stay the course don't give up draft picks keep improving! Promote AS now!!!!!!!

We beat Miami and Oakland on the road. If the games were in Arrowhead, we might be dangerous. But not on the road. And as the #6 seed, we would have been on the road.

chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 03:11 PM
We beat Miami and Oakland on the road. If the games were in Arrowhead, we might be dangerous. But not on the road. And as the #6 seed, we would have been on the road.


I respectfully disagree. Chiefs right now are dangerous period on the road or otherwise.

ck_IN
01-05-2006, 04:07 PM
Personally what I would like to see is the following:

1. Hire a youngish assistant coach, preferably defensive, from one of the playoff teams.
2. Install a Joe Gibbs style of offense with a little more punch in the passing game.
3. Draft at least one large body DT and switch to a 3-4 with Bell on the inside.

This would allow us to grow our own coach with our own identity rather then the former coach of (fill in team name). Offensively we're a power run team. AS and DV may not want to admit it but we are. Lets drop the pretense and be a power run team. This would also take the emphasis away from a weakness (WR) and put it on a strength (RB/TE). Our defense is best suited for a 3-4 except for the Dline. Since the Dline also isn't well suited for a 4-3 let's make the switch. This would also benefit Siavii who could be a good nose tackle.

chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 04:14 PM
Personally what I would like to see is the following:

1. Hire a youngish assistant coach, preferably defensive, from one of the playoff teams.
2. Install a Joe Gibbs style of offense with a little more punch in the passing game.
3. Draft at least one large body DT and switch to a 3-4 with Bell on the inside.

This would allow us to grow our own coach with our own identity rather then the former coach of (fill in team name). Offensively we're a power run team. AS and DV may not want to admit it but we are. Lets drop the pretense and be a power run team. This would also take the emphasis away from a weakness (WR) and put it on a strength (RB/TE). Our defense is best suited for a 3-4 except for the Dline. Since the Dline also isn't well suited for a 4-3 let's make the switch. This would also benefit Siavii who could be a good nose tackle.

Why walk away from improving our O even more by adding a quality wideout this offseason either through free agency or draft? Someone like Plexico opposite Parker would be ideal! TG, LJ, Parker, and even faster more durable #1 WR would be a sight to see next season!

Why does every one want to abandon what has worked on O and tweak it by adding the abovementioned WR?

Coogs
01-05-2006, 04:43 PM
I respectfully disagree. Chiefs right now are dangerous period on the road or otherwise.

I guess we will have to disagree, 'cause when we needed to beat either the Cowpokes or the G-men to just get into the playoffs, we could not do it. LJ had huge games in both too.

And right now we are sitting home, so we are not all that dangerous.

jspchief
01-05-2006, 04:44 PM
Why walk away from improving our O even more by adding a quality wideout this offseason either through free agency or draft? Someone like Plexico opposite Parker would be ideal! TG, LJ, Parker, and even faster more durable #1 WR would be a sight to see next season!

Why does every one want to abandon what has worked on O and tweak it by adding the abovementioned WR?O hasn't won us any play-off games in the last 5+ years. We need defense. Making the #1 offense better will just raise the over/under bet on the games that we'll still lose.

Coogs
01-05-2006, 04:45 PM
O hasn't won us any play-off games in the last 5+ years. We need defense. Making the #1 offense better will just raise the over/under bet on the games that we'll still lose.

ROFL

milkshock
01-05-2006, 04:46 PM
A case can be made that Vermeil had nothing to do with this offense. His offense was terrible until Martz got there and took it from near dead last to #1 (by the way, that's what a good coordinator does -- has immediate impact, unlike assuming we have to give Gun 3-4 years to build a respectable D). Saunders, working under Martz learned the offense, and it's Saunders not Vermeil who is the offensive guru.

Again, I am not saying that this is true. Martz was unable to maintain the high-powered offense in St. Loius more than two years I think, before it returned to earth.

The whole Vermeil, Martz, Saunders thing is interesting. How much of the credit goes to Vermeil, and how much goes to Martz/Saunders?


Yes I think Vermeil needs to be give more credit here. The St Louis offense by the end of this season had completely collapsed, while Saunders only ever turned into an offensive genious in KC under Vermeil.

Remember his offense when he was HC at SD? No, me neither.

Also if he was such a guru why did he not have more of an impact when he was receivers coach in KC during the Martyball days?

chiefsfan1963
01-05-2006, 04:54 PM
O hasn't won us any play-off games in the last 5+ years. We need defense. Making the #1 offense better will just raise the over/under bet on the games that we'll still lose.

I'm assuming that the D will continue to improve and break into the top 20 ranks next year. We should be able to do this with some more additions to our roster next year during the offseason. Getting a wideout who can create separation consistently can only make us better on offense. We'll get over the hump next year, much like the Colts did this year with the acquisiton of Corey Simon.

Tribal Warfare
01-05-2006, 04:54 PM
One positive concerning Herm and the offense, although he hired the wrong OC(Hackett). Edwards tried to implement the WC offense in his scheme . Hopefully he won't touch KC's since it's already in place

Coogs
01-05-2006, 04:59 PM
I'm assuming that the D will continue to improve and break into the top 20 ranks next year. We should be able to do this with some more additions to our roster next year during the offseason. Getting a wideout who can create separation consistently can only make us better on offense. We'll get over the hump next year, much like the Colts did this year with the acquisiton of Corey Simon.

We are supposedly 20 million dollars above the cap. Better count on the draft picks for the additions.