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View Full Version : A couple of reasons to say no to Norv Turner


B_Ambuehl
01-07-2006, 09:31 AM
Ever since he was in Miami Norv appears to have lost it.

1. Turner's offensive passing attack at Miami was literally laughed at by Chris Carter and other analysts for it's lack of creativity and lack of options in the passing game.

2. Has anyone watched that Raiders offensive playcalling the last couple of years? I can count the number of crossing routes I've seen on one hand. Terrible use of personnel. Sterling Sharpe was asked last week on ESPN if this was a "progressive offensive attack" He replied, "no, not even close...very elementary"

3. The Chiefs actually looked like a good defensive football team against this Raiders team. Remember in KC when Gun sent an all out blitz every single 3rd down and Turner never had a single receiver running a short hot route??

4. Coaching is all about what you do with the talent you have. Turner coached offensive football teams have definitely underproduced their level of talent at least the last 4 years.

5. I will give him one thing. He's not afraid to drive a running back into the ground. Yet, even in Miami with the NFLs leading rusher and dominant defense he couldn't get his offense into the playoffs and have any success.

4th and Long
01-07-2006, 09:34 AM
We (the members of this board) don't have a say in who the Chiefs organization hires so, you should give Carl and Lamar a call. Let us know how that tuns out, m'kay?

RedThat
01-07-2006, 09:38 AM
Ever since he was in Miami Norv appears to have lost it.

1. Turner's offensive passing attack at Miami was literally laughed at by Chris Carter and other analysts for it's lack of creativity and lack of options in the passing game.

2. Has anyone watched that Raiders offensive playcalling the last couple of years? I can count the number of crossing routes I've seen on one hand. Terrible use of personnel. Sterling Sharpe was asked last week on ESPN if this was a "progressive offensive attack" He replied, "no, not even close...very elementary"

3. The Chiefs actually looked like a good defensive football team against this Raiders team. Remember in KC when Gun sent an all out blitz every single 3rd down and Turner never had a single receiver running a short hot route??

4. Coaching is all about what you do with the talent you have. Turner coached offensive football teams have definitely underproduced their level of talent at least the last 4 years.

5. I will give him one thing. He's not afraid to drive a running back into the ground. Yet, even in Miami with the NFLs leading rusher and dominant defense he couldn't get his offense into the playoffs and have any success.

Do you hate everybody? Or are you just a pessimist in general? Every one of your posts is, say "NO" to this guy, and that guy....Would you quit it, your being annoying

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 09:40 AM
OK, wasn't Jimmy Raye the offensive coordinator?

Is it not possible Norv, being a shitty head coach, gave Raye complete control and henceforth the offense sucked?

4th and Long
01-07-2006, 09:41 AM
OK, wasn't Jimmy Raye the offensive coordinator?

Is it not possible Norv, being a shitty head coach, gave Raye complete control and henceforth the offense sucked?
Please stop stating the obvious. It kills threads like this one.

B_Ambuehl
01-07-2006, 09:56 AM
Do you hate everybody? Or are you just a pessimist in general? Every one of your posts is, say "NO" to this guy, and that guy....Would you quit it, your being annoying

I only start negative posts when I see people saying stupid shit and in this case promoting idiot coaches, players, and situations using false information or no information. There are at least 3 other posts giving (what I feel are) undeserved props to Turner as a potential offensive coordinator so I figured I'd try to clear things up. Yes, anyone is entitled to their own opinion but as you know some are more educated opinions then others.

I am not always negative...You must've missed my multiple positive posts on Greg Williams, Al Saunders, Mike Solari, etc. as coaches didn't you?

Additionally, I could probably come up with a few good things to say about Cam Cameron as an offensive coordinating candidate. But Norv Turner? No way.

And GoChiefs Turner calls the plays so he can't use Jimmy Raye as an excuse at all.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 09:58 AM
Cam Cam isn't coming here.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 09:58 AM
And GoChiefs Turner calls the plays so he can't use Jimmy Raye as an excuse at all.

Fair enough.

Here's my counterpoint:

Has Kerry Collins EVER run an efficient offense?

Otter
01-07-2006, 09:59 AM
2. Has anyone watched that Raiders offensive playcalling the last couple of years? I can count the number of crossing routes I've seen on one hand. Terrible use of personnel. Sterling Sharpe was asked last week on ESPN if this was a "progressive offensive attack" He replied, "no, not even close...very elementary"

I have about as much respect for Sterling Sharpe's insight on football as I would for Paris Hilton's insight on rebuilding a carborator or installing gutters.

B_Ambuehl
01-07-2006, 10:49 AM
Yeah he (Sharpe) is obviously a biased analyst but Chris Carter said as much when he was talking about Miami when turner was there...and he had firsthand experience with the situation.

Additionally, If Sharpe was referring to a chiefs coach I could understand but what team is Sterling Sharpe obviously a fan of?


GoChiefs. That's not much of a counterpoint because I'm talking about playcalling and you're talking about execution. Have you actually paid attention to Norv Turners "play-calling" the last few years boht in Oak and Miami? Regardless of whether Collins "executes" or not, when you have 4 receivers going out on 20 + yard routes straight down the field against an 8 man blitz without a hot there's little chance for a completion. Yes, Collins sux but he's not gettin a lot of help from his coach either. He did get job done in NY with inferior talent compared to what he has in Oak so that should tell you something. Additionally, the various offensive coaches in Minnesota always did a much better job with Randy Moss led offenses then Turner has in Oak.

Norv Turner was shitcanned for good reason and it had nothing to do with his defense and little to do with Kerry Collins.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 11:08 AM
GoChiefs. That's not much of a counterpoint because I'm talking about playcalling and you're talking about execution.

Did you ever consider that perhaps Collins can't consistently hit a crossing route with accuracy?

And don't tell me they NEVER call them because I've seen them do it against KC.

B_Ambuehl
01-07-2006, 11:12 AM
Do you know anything about football?

The Bad Guy
01-07-2006, 11:12 AM
I only start negative posts when I see people saying stupid shit and in this case promoting idiot coaches, players, and situations using false information or no information. There are at least 3 other posts giving (what I feel are) undeserved props to Turner as a potential offensive coordinator so I figured I'd try to clear things up. Yes, anyone is entitled to their own opinion but as you know some are more educated opinions then others.

I am not always negative...You must've missed my multiple positive posts on Greg Williams, Al Saunders, Mike Solari, etc. as coaches didn't you?

Additionally, I could probably come up with a few good things to say about Cam Cameron as an offensive coordinating candidate. But Norv Turner? No way.

And GoChiefs Turner calls the plays so he can't use Jimmy Raye as an excuse at all.

I want Tom Moore to be the Chiefs OC.

Afterall, you are really stepping out on a ledge with your desire for Cam Cameron, someone under contract to a division rival.

I'm sure that bad passing game had nothing to do with Jay Fiedler or any other of the awful Dolphin QBs, right?

And while you're at it, find where Carter criticized it because I remember nothing of the sort.

You didn't clear shit up. All you did was state your opinion on why he's bad. I'll let his resume state my opinion.

Turner was on Jimmy Johnson's Dallas coaching staff from 1991-93, where as the offensive coordinator he helped lead the Cowboys to two straight World Championships with wins in Super Bowl XXVII following the 1992 season and Super Bowl XXVIII following the 1993 season. He spent the past two seasons on Dave Wannstedt's Miami staff as Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator. Ricky Williams' 1,372 rushing yards in 2002 marked the 10th time in Turner's 13 seasons as either a head coach or a coordinator that a running back surpassed the 1,000-yard rushing mark. In Turner's first season with the Dolphins, Miami ranked second in the NFL in rushing with an average of 156.4 yards per contest. The 2,502 total rushing yards were the third-highest total in Dolphins history. Turner spent the 2001 season as the offensive coordinator with San Diego. Under Turner's guidance, the Chargers offense improved to the 11th-best unit in the NFL after having finished 28th overall the previous season. While Turner was head coach with Washington, he also served as offensive coordinator. During his seven-year tenure in Washington, he led the Redskins to a regular-season record of 49-59-1. The Redskins went 1-1 in the 1999 postseason. That season, the Redskins offense finished the year as the league's second-ranked unit. He guided the Redskins to a record of 7-6 in 2000 before being released with three games to play in the season. The Redskins final three losses under Turner were by a total of six points, while their six losses over these first 13 games came by an average of less than four points. Turner began his NFL coaching career as an assistant with the Los Angeles Rams in 1985. With Turner as the team's receivers coach, the Rams offense finished third, fourth and third, respectively, from 1988-90, his final three seasons with the club. In 1991, Turner took over a Cowboys offense that ranked 28th the previous season and helped lead them to consecutive NFL rankings of fourth overall in 1992 and 1993, as they captured back-to-back Super Bowl titles. Throughout his coaching career, Turner has helped to mold some of the top skill position players in the NFL. As receivers coach with the Rams (1985-90), wide receiver Henry Ellard twice surpassed the 1,000-yard receiving mark, with an NFL-high 1,414 in 1988 and 1,382 the following year, placing him fourth in the NFL. In his final three years with the Rams (1988-90), tight end Pete Holohan averaged 53 catches a season and finished second among NFC tight ends in receiving in two of those three years. With Turner as offensive coordinator with Dallas from 1991-93, running back Emmitt Smith led the NFL in rushing all three years. In addition, both quarterback Troy Aikman and wide receiver Michael Irvin finished in the top three in the NFL in passing and receiving, respectively, twice apiece. Also during Turner's tenure in Dallas, Jay Novacek led all NFL tight ends in receiving twice and averaged more than 57 receptions a season over that three-year period. During his seven-year stint as head coach with the Redskins, the team had a 1,000-yard rusher four times and a 1,000-yard receiver on five occasions. In 1995, Terry Allen rushed for 1,309 yards while Ellard compiled 1,005 receiving yards. In 1996, Allen totaled 1,353 rushing yards while Ellard gained 1,014 receiving yards. Under Turner, three different Redskin quarterbacks surpassed the 3,000-yard passing plateau, including Brad Johnson, who finished fourth in the NFL with 4,005 yards in 1999, the second-highest total in Redskins history. That same year, running back Stephen Davis led the NFC with 1,405 yards rushing, while two different receivers went over the 1,000-yard receiving mark. The other 3,000-yard passers were Gus Frerotte (3,453 in 1996) and Trent Green (3,441 in 1998). In 2001, Turner's lone season as offensive coordinator for the Chargers, running back LaDainian Tomlinson led all NFL rookies with 1,236 yards rushing and 10 touchdowns on 339 attempts, while also catching an NFL rookie-best 59 passes. His rushing total ranked fifth in the AFC and ninth in the NFL. In addition, quarterback Doug Flutie threw for 3,464 yards and wide receiver Curtis Conway had 71 receptions for 1,125 yards, marking just the second time in team history that the Chargers had a 3,000-yard passer, a 1,000-yard receiver and a 1,000-yard rusher in the same season.

ChiefsCountry
01-07-2006, 11:15 AM
Do you know anything about football?

By your posts, it sure seems that you don't.

The Bad Guy
01-07-2006, 11:18 AM
Yeah he (Sharpe) is obviously a biased analyst but Chris Carter said as much when he was talking about Miami when turner was there...and he had firsthand experience with the situation.

Additionally, If Sharpe was referring to a chiefs coach I could understand but what team is Sterling Sharpe obviously a fan of?


GoChiefs. That's not much of a counterpoint because I'm talking about playcalling and you're talking about execution. Have you actually paid attention to Norv Turners "play-calling" the last few years boht in Oak and Miami? Regardless of whether Collins "executes" or not, when you have 4 receivers going out on 20 + yard routes straight down the field against an 8 man blitz without a hot there's little chance for a completion. Yes, Collins sux but he's not gettin a lot of help from his coach either. He did get job done in NY with inferior talent compared to what he has in Oak so that should tell you something. Additionally, the various offensive coaches in Minnesota always did a much better job with Randy Moss led offenses then Turner has in Oak.

Norv Turner was shitcanned for good reason and it had nothing to do with his defense and little to do with Kerry Collins.

HA, nothing to do with Kerry Collins?

Did you even watch any Raider games?

It's hysterical that you asked someone above if they knew anything about football. Maybe you should take a refresher course.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 11:25 AM
Do you know anything about football?

Does Kerry Collins?

B_Ambuehl
01-07-2006, 11:26 AM
And while you're at it, find where Carter criticized it because I remember nothing of the sort.

He criticized it on national television on NFL Live. He had firsthand experience with that offense and was talking about why they weren't in the playoff hunt.

Talk about Turner's resume all you want, the early years of that resume are the main reason he still has "god-like" status in the eyes of many. The reality is he hasn't gotten the job done in either of his last 2 or 3 places of employment, depending upon how you look at it.

RedNeckRaider
01-07-2006, 11:39 AM
Rumor has it Oakland will return your 4th round pick if you take him.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 11:48 AM
The reality is he hasn't gotten the job done in either of his last 2 or 3 places of employment, depending upon how you look at it.

Maybe it's just me but any offensive coordinator/playcaller hamstrung by Heath Shuler, Gus Frerotte and Kerry Collins is going to look bad.

Looked alot better with Troy Aikman, Trent Green and Brad Johnson.

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 11:56 AM
GoChiefs. That's not much of a counterpoint because I'm talking about playcalling and you're talking about execution. Have you actually paid attention to Norv Turners "play-calling" the last few years boht in Oak and Miami? Regardless of whether Collins "executes" or not, when you have 4 receivers going out on 20 + yard routes straight down the field against an 8 man blitz without a hot there's little chance for a completion. Yes, Collins sux but he's not gettin a lot of help from his coach either. He did get job done in NY with inferior talent compared to what he has in Oak so that should tell you something. Additionally, the various offensive coaches in Minnesota always did a much better job with Randy Moss led offenses then Turner has in Oak.

I agree with you B_Ambuehl. GoChiefs clearly have no idea that football is a ultimate team sport (no one player or two can affect the production of the team as a whole) play-calling/coaching/practices/meeting are clear reflection of the coaches/coordinator and most time head coaches. How many times have we heard the comparisons of a super college player but when they entered the NFL, he is neutralize because he's on the field with 21 other super guys unlike college. Singling out one, two or number of players for not executing clearly shows that a coordinator or coach does not know how to utilize his players strength. Also shows that their inability to outcoach the opposing coaches during a game. NFL players are true professionals. If they made it to a roster, they are rela good. The way coaches assemble their cast and personalities plays just as big a role in team's success. (ie. see NY Yankees, you can assemble an ALL-Star roster but if the coaches can't make them mesh and create a scheme to utilize his players to the best of their talents, you end up having a mediocre team.

Quote:Originally Posted by B_Ambuehl
Do you know anything about football?
By your posts, it sure seems that you don't.

B_Ambuehl, It's clear that ChiefsCountry have some kind of vendetta against you if he thinks what you have said shows that you have no knowledge of football. ChiefsCountry obviously would back it up if he really knew anything about football.

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 11:59 AM
Maybe it's just me but any offensive coordinator/playcaller hamstrung by Heath Shuler, Gus Frerotte and Kerry Collins is going to look bad.

Looked alot better with Troy Aikman, Trent Green and Brad Johnson.

WHAT? How successful was Trent Green in Washington?

Troy Aikman you say? Did he use to have 3-4 pro-bowl linemen during the Boys run and a coupl of guys name Irvin and Emmitt?

And where did Turner coach Brad Johnson?

The only player I can say is truly not NFL caliber is Heath Shuler.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 12:00 PM
GoChiefs clearly have no idea that football is a ultimate team sport

First of all, nice grammar, jackass.

Second of all, are you going to sit here and tell me every offensive coordinator that's worked with Kerry Collins is a moron?

Norv Turner's offenses looked great in Dallas. Now he gets with some lesser talented players and they go to shit.

THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO AL SAUNDERS THIS SEASON WITH WILLIE ROAF.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 12:02 PM
WHAT? How successful was Trent Green in Washington?

23 touchdowns and 11 interceptions successful.


Troy Aikman you say? Did he use to have 3-4 pro-bowl linemen during the Boys run and a coupl of guys name Irvin and Emmitt?

So? The Chiefs have alot of talent too. Are you going drag Saunders name through the mud?



And where did Turner coach Brad Johnson?


Washington. Should I call out your football knowledge now? :rolleyes:

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 12:14 PM
First of all, nice grammar, jackass.

Second of all, are you going to sit here and tell me every offensive coordinator that's worked with Kerry Collins is a moron?

Norv Turner's offenses looked great in Dallas. Now he gets with some lesser talented players and they go to shit.

THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO AL SAUNDERS THIS SEASON WITH WILLIE ROAF.

First of all, if you want to talk football, fine. Stop being a mama's boy here and pick on typos. Back it up with your football knowledge.

Willie Roaf is great. But the reason Chiefs had better success middle to lat in the season was Al getting his brain back where it belongs (using his strength, running LJ) A lot of people think that Roaf was so key in KC;s success, I am not sure if you understand how defenses play KC when they saw how impactful LJ could be. They backed away from trying to get to Green thus having some to think Roaf was the key reason he had more time to throw. LJ's arrival was a big part defense had to stay discipline and respect Green's play-action.

You have to be on crack to think Turner has a lesser talent. Moss, Porter, Curry, Gabriel, decent TE in Anderson, good RB Jordan and to me one of the up & coming O-line core (Gallery, Stone, Simms). They reason faders look crappy this year could clearly be tied to the players not respecting their HC's ability to game plan and make smart play-calling. They were so competitive earlier int he season and when the players stuck to their HC's scheme it didn't produce wins...they stop believing.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 12:15 PM
First of all, if you want to talk football, fine. Stop being a mama's boy here and pick on typos. Back it up with your football knowledge.

You JACKASS. You felt need to let fly with the personal insults so I followed suit. I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of your post.

milkman
01-07-2006, 12:16 PM
I agree with you B_Ambuehl. GoChiefs clearly have no idea that football is a ultimate team sport (no one player or two can affect the production of the team as a whole) play-calling/coaching/practices/meeting are clear reflection of the coaches/coordinator and most time head coaches. How many times have we heard the comparisons of a super college player but when they entered the NFL, he is neutralize because he's on the field with 21 other super guys unlike college. Singling out one, two or number of players for not executing clearly shows that a coordinator or coach does not know how to utilize his players strength. Also shows that their inability to outcoach the opposing coaches during a game. NFL players are true professionals. If they made it to a roster, they are rela good. The way coaches assemble their cast and personalities plays just as big a role in team's success. (ie. see NY Yankees, you can assemble an ALL-Star roster but if the coaches can't make them mesh and create a scheme to utilize his players to the best of their talents, you end up having a mediocre team.



B_Ambuehl, It's clear that ChiefsCountry have some kind of vendetta against you if he thinks what you have said shows that you have no knowledge of football. ChiefsCountry obviously would back it up if he really knew anything about football.

Your and idiot.

Kerry Collins is a suckass QB.
The Giants were a SB team with Collins at QB because they were among the top 5 or 6 in rushing O, and among the top 5 or 6 on defense.

If Collins completed 60% of his passes, I'd be truly amazed to learn that.
I'd also bet he was among the league leaders among sacked QBs.

He can't throw the short pass with any accuracy.

Take away the run with Collins as your QB, and your team is going to have a long day.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 12:16 PM
If Collins completed 60% of his passes, I'd be truly amazed to learn that.


He didn't. He's only been above 60 one year. He sucks.

milkman
01-07-2006, 12:18 PM
First of all, if you want to talk football, fine. Stop being a mama's boy here and pick on typos. Back it up with your football knowledge.

Willie Roaf is great. But the reason Chiefs had better success middle to lat in the season was Al getting his brain back where it belongs (using his strength, running LJ) A lot of people think that Roaf was so key in KC;s success, I am not sure if you understand how defenses play KC when they saw how impactful LJ could be. They backed away from trying to get to Green thus having some to think Roaf was the key reason he had more time to throw. LJ's arrival was a big part defense had to stay discipline and respect Green's play-action.

You have to be on crack to think Turner has a lesser talent. Moss, Porter, Curry, Gabriel, decent TE in Anderson, good RB Jordan and to me one of the up & coming O-line core (Gallery, Stone, Simms). They reason faders look crappy this year could clearly be tied to the players not respecting their HC's ability to game plan and make smart play-calling. They were so competitive earlier int he season and when the players stuck to their HC's scheme it didn't produce wins...they stop believing.

Lamont Jordan is a good RB?

Did he even average 4 yards a pop?

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 12:22 PM
You JACKASS. You felt need to let fly with the personal insults so I followed suit. I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of your post.

Just see how many times you had to use name-calling to get your point through. Obvious you have no football to back it up.

Jeeeez... speaking of me using personal insults. I bet your perfect grammar has a lot to do with finding multiple name-calling such as "jackass" in making your voice heard. I am sure you have more names ... like you said, I am gonna stop addressing your post too.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 12:24 PM
Just see how many times you had to use name-calling to get your point through.

You started it. Why should I give you the time of day if you immediately start in with that shit, UNPROVOKED.

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 12:29 PM
Your and idiot.

Kerry Collins is a suckass QB.
The Giants were a SB team with Collins at QB because they were among the top 5 or 6 in rushing O, and among the top 5 or 6 on defense.

If Collins completed 60% of his passes, I'd be truly amazed to learn that.
I'd also bet he was among the league leaders among sacked QBs.

He can't throw the short pass with any accuracy.

Take away the run with Collins as your QB, and your team is going to have a long day.

SideWinder. Stop being a critical unhappy arse! I did not agree with Collins being a good QB anywhere in my post..i-diot!

I agree that Collins is a super suck-ass QB too. I was celebrating when Faders got him. I knew we'd be guarantee at least two wins despite bringing our C -games against them in 2005. But common man, Turner is not a NFL caliber HC or coordinator anymore. He is so clueless.

As shitty as Collins was, how do you compare him to Steve Bono huh? Didn't Bono ( :banghead: ) take our less than talented offensive team to a 13-3 record? And everyone who wants in on this discussion, please do not forget Trent Dilfer Jeff Hosteller winning a SB with the Ravens and Giants.

milkman
01-07-2006, 12:32 PM
(no one player or two can affect the production of the team as a whole)

Here's a question for you.

If you really believe the above statement, why are you so hard up to have the Chiefs persue David Carr.

If no one player can affect the production of a team as a whole, why not just sign Jason White?

He could QB the Chiefs and not have any affect to their production.

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 12:38 PM
Here's a question for you.

If you really believe the above statement, why are you so hard up to have the Chiefs persue David Carr.

If no one player can affect the production of a team as a whole, why not just sign Jason White?

He could QB the Chiefs and not have any affect to their production.

Ok I admit. You state a valid point/argument with the above. I lived in the westcoast and have watch Carr many many times in college. At least give him the benefit of the doubt. I am not saying he's a Joe Montana or Brady or Manning. I just think he's got a lot more upside than what most of the country have seen with the Texans.

If Vince Young goes pro, and its gonna be a no-brainer for Texans to select Young #1 overall, if they let Carr go since he is a UFA. Can you at least agree to have Chiefs making an attempt to sign him? I just want an understudy while our offense is running hot, and especially learning under a good guy who's been thru hell (early in his career) like Green.

So can you get off my back already for campaigning for Carr and just read my post based on the individual post from here on out?

B_Ambuehl
01-07-2006, 12:38 PM
As I've already said multiple times, there's a difference between play "calling" and play execution. Turner is not CALLING plays or utilizing an offensive scheme that give his team the best chance to succeed and hasn't done that in at least 4 years. That's regardless of whether he has Collins or Troy Aikman at quarterback. NFL defenses have evolved since '90. I realize that most fans don't understand the various offensive and defensive schemes and x's and o's and all that, yet Turner's poor signal calling should be obvious to anyone that watched him last week against the Giants in the goal line situation and anyone that watched his football team play against KC in KC. Turner's poor performance is obvious to anyone who knows football which is why I doubt if anyone here can find a single analyst, coach, or knowledgeable person who will defend Turner for getting shitcanned.

As for resume's.....even Jimmy Rayes can look impressive: :)

Jimmy Raye, who has 28 years of NFL coaching experience, is in his second year as Raiders Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator. With Raye serving in that capacity last year, the Raiders finished fourth in the AFC and fifth in the NFL in yards per play on first down and fourth in the AFC in net passing yards per game. Kerry Collins, who took over at quarterback after 2002 NFL MVP Rich Gannon was injured early in the season, passed for 3,495 yards and Jerry Porter just missed on a 1,000-yard receiving season, posting 998 yards.
Prior to joining the Raiders, Raye, 59, spent two seasons with the New York Jets, adding the title of assistant head coach in 2003 after serving as senior offensive assistant in 2002. Raye has served as an NFL offensive coordinator for 10 seasons and on six separate occasions, with the Rams (twice - 1983-84, 1991), Tampa Bay (1985-86), New England (1990), Kansas City (1998-2000) and with Washington (2001). Raye helped formulate a Jets offense that saw running back Curtis Martin rush for 1,308 yards. Raye's knowledge and experience helped the Jets qualify for the postseason in 2002 as Curtis Martin rushed for 1,094 yards and Laveranues Coles caught 89 passes for 1,264 yards for a New York squad that was defeated by the Raiders in an AFC Divisional playoff.

In 2001, Raye was the offensive coordinator for Washington when the Redskins finished fourth in the NFC in rushing and eighth overall in the NFL. Prior to joining the Redskins, Raye spent nine seasons with the Kansas City Chiefs, including the last three as offensive coordinator.

Raye started with the Chiefs as offensive assistant/tight ends coach from 1992-93 and then coached Kansas City's running backs from 1994-97 before taking over coordinator duties. Raye was an integral part of the Chiefs run which saw the team qualify for the playoffs six times in nine seasons and capture AFC West championships in 1995 and 1997. Under Raye, the Chiefs gained more than 5,600 yards in 2000, the second-most in team history, and scored 390 points in 1999, the third-highest total in team history.

While serving as running backs coach, Raye tutored a unit that led the NFL in rushing in 1995 with a 138.9-yard average per game. From 1995-97, the Chiefs under Raye had the third-best rushing attack in the NFL, averaging 136 yards per contest. With Raye handling the play-calling, the Rams ranked second in the NFL in rushing in 1984 as Eric Dickerson - the Pro Football Hall of Famer who played for the Raiders in 1992 - became the second NFL player to ever rush for more than 2,000 yards in a single season (2,105). In his two seasons with Tampa Bay, Raye coached James Wilder, who became one of the NFL's top all-purpose weapons, combining for 96 receptions and 2,004 rushing yards from 1985-86.

Raye was a standout quarterback for the Michigan State Spartans (1965-67) and led the Spartans to two Big Ten titles and the 1966 Rose Bowl. He was drafted by the Los Angeles Rams and switched to defensive back in the NFL, playing for the Rams before being traded to the Philadelphia Eagles in 1969. The Fayetteville, North Carolina native began his coaching career in 1971 at his alma mater, Michigan State, where he stayed for five years (1971-75). He served a brief stint at Wyoming in 1976 before moving to the NFL ranks, beginning with San Francisco (1977), Detroit (1977-79), Atlanta (1980-82, 1987-89), the L.A. Rams (1983-84, 1991), Tampa Bay (1985-86) and New England (1990).

Raye and his wife Edwena are the parents of two children, daughter Robin and son Jimmy III, who currently serves as the San Diego Chargers director of college scouting.

milkman
01-07-2006, 12:39 PM
SideWinder. Stop being a critical unhappy arse! I did not agree with Collins being a good QB anywhere in my post..i-diot!

I agree that Collins is a super suck-ass QB too. I was celebrating when Faders got him. I knew we'd be guarantee at least two wins despite bringing our C -games against them in 2005. But common man, Turner is not a NFL caliber HC or coordinator anymore. He is so clueless.

As shitty as Collins was, how do you compare him to Steve Bono huh? Didn't Bono ( :banghead: ) take our less than talented offensive team to a 13-3 record? And everyone who wants in on this discussion, please do not forget Trent Dilfer Jeff Hosteller winning a SB with the Ravens and Giants.

Trent Difer won a SB.

All that any of this proves is that outstanding defenses can carry a team a long way, even with bad QB play.

It also proves that without outstanding defense, a QBs poor play is magnified.

The team can't overcome his shortcomings, and the bad QB can't overcome a bad team's shortcomings.

I don't care if the are greatest offensive genius ever, you can't hide crappy QB play, especially if the rest of the team is equally as crappy.

milkman
01-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Ok I admit. You state a valid point/argument with the above. I lived in the westcoast and have watch Carr many many times in college. At least give him the benefit of the doubt. I am not saying he's a Joe Montana or Brady or Manning. I just think he's got a lot more upside than what most of the country have seen with the Texans.

If Vince Young goes pro, and its gonna be a no-brainer for Texans to select Young #1 overall, if they let Carr go since he is a UFA. Can you at least agree to have Chiefs making an attempt to sign him? I just want an understudy while our offense is running hot, and especially learning under a good guy who's been thru hell (early in his career) like Green.

So can you get off my back already for campaigning for Carr and just read my post based on the individual post from here on out?

My post isn't attacking you for your stance on Carr.

My post asks the question, even assuming that you are right, and I am wrong, if a single player, even at the QB position doesn't affect the team's overall production, then what difference does it make who we get to play the position?

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 12:49 PM
Trent Difer won a SB.

All that any of this proves is that outstanding defenses can carry a team a long way, even with bad QB play.

It also proves that without outstanding defense, a QBs poor play is magnified.

The team can't overcome his shortcomings, and the bad QB can't overcome a bad team's shortcomings.

I don't care if the are greatest offensive genius ever, you can't hide crappy QB play, especially if the rest of the team is equally as crappy.

Again. I agreed. You make a point. I am all for great TEAM (most recent than not, strong defense have won a SB with mediocre QB)

But I thought the topic in this thread/discussion was about head coaches and coordinators? Turner is shit, right?

You of all people being a marty-basher. I hated hated marty. I will never forget our two playoff losses in the early 90's due to bad play-calling in Marty's part. We had Deberg in one year and "arrgghhh" the Grbac going in for Gannon hearbreaker. Why we lost those two games? Our best defense of all 80s, 90s was that team that lost to Miami with Deberg at QB.

And Marty's play-calling wussy call to not go for it on 4th and 1 when we had Marcus Allen. Choosing to kick FG with Lin Elliot when he had previously miss 2 FGs and 1 extra point in the last two regular season games that year.

So SideWinder. I agree. It's team with a smart coach. Thats what we're discussing ..Turner is a shitcoach.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 12:53 PM
And Marty's play-calling wussy call to not go for it on 4th and 1 when we had Marcus Allen. Choosing to kick FG with Lin Elliot when he had previously miss 2 FGs and 1 extra point in the last two regular season games that year.



This is an interesting passage.

Are you behind our new head coach?

milkman
01-07-2006, 01:02 PM
Again. I agreed. You make a point. I am all for great TEAM (most recent than not, strong defense have won a SB with mediocre QB)

But I thought the topic in this thread/discussion was about head coaches and coordinators? Turner is shit, right?

You of all people being a marty-basher. I hated hated marty. I will never forget our two playoff losses in the early 90's due to bad play-calling in Marty's part. We had Deberg in one year and "arrgghhh" the Grbac going in for Gannon hearbreaker. Why we lost those two games? Our best defense of all 80s, 90s was that team that lost to Miami with Deberg at QB.

And Marty's play-calling wussy call to not go for it on 4th and 1 when we had Marcus Allen. Choosing to kick FG with Lin Elliot when he had previously miss 2 FGs and 1 extra point in the last two regular season games that year.

So SideWinder. I agree. It's team with a smart coach. Thats what we're discussing ..Turner is a shitcoach.

I was aware that you agreed with my post.

I just wanted to make it clear, at least in this case, that I wasn't attacking your position on Carr.

And the point that I'm trying to make is that a QB, a mediocre RB, and an average O-Line can make any HC and OC look like a bad coach.

Even if you have a good RB, but a bad QB, it can affect an OC's percieved performance.

The Chiefs have a lot of talent .
A RB approaching elite status.
A QB that has talent, brains, and heart.
And an outstanding O-Line.

Give that Norv Turner, and I'm betting he will look more like the Dallas OC that the Raiders HC.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 01:04 PM
Give that Norv Turner, and I'm betting he will look more like the Dallas OC that the Raiders HC.

Ding ding ding!

And the fact that he knows Trent Green inside and out would only help.

People whining about "cutesy playcalling" would disappear with Norv, too. Aikman sacrificed stats for wins in the early 90s.

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 01:04 PM
This is an interesting passage.

Are you behind our new head coach?


Ok. You win GoChiefs. I can't help it but to address your post again despite saying I will not.


I don't necessary say Herm is my #1 choice but i do believe in him more than Fassel or Turner or Saunders.

If you have not read any of my other posts in recent days regarding our our next HC. I have stated that I am clearly looking forward to king Carl keeping his words to not renew his current contract and thus we'll a new regime and live for possible SB after 2009. In the meantime, from what I have read, I prefer Herm over the other candidates mentioned (not by fans here but actual candidates CP is looking at)

Johnson&Johnson
01-07-2006, 01:09 PM
And BTW, if it was my choice, I would prefer the likes of Jon Gruden or Jeff Fisher!

But the reality is, CP is still the GM so I am taking the best of what's on deck - HERM is my choice until newer candidates get mentioned by CP.

Wallcrawler
01-07-2006, 03:10 PM
Norv Turner has show in the past that when he has the tools to work with, he is capable of coordinating championship caliber offenses.

Aikman, Irvin, and Smith behind that Cowboys offensive line were nearly unstoppable.

One could make a fair comparison to the Chiefs offense in this case. Outstanding O-line, Trent Green, Larry Johnson, and Tony Gonzalez.


Turner has had a run of bad luck recently, but as mentioned, when your Quarterbacks are Kerry Collins, Heath Shuler, or Jay freakin Fiedler, its tough to have a passing attack that scares anyone.

With the Raiders, he isnt coordinating the offense. He might call the plays, but you still have to recognize that he isnt focusing all of his attention on the offense. Moreover, the Raiders offensive line sucks and Kerry Collins is a statue back there.

Im very confident that if Norv Turner were put in charge of the Kansas City offense, with the personnel that we have, he would have great success.

Ricky Williams was a damn beast for the Dolphins under Turner. Had the Dolphins had a legitimate QB, the passing game would not have been the joke that it was.

There's no telling how many records Larry Johnson could literally shatter under Norv Turner.

Johnson&Johnson
01-08-2006, 11:57 AM
Norv Turner has show in the past that when he has the tools to work with, he is capable of coordinating championship caliber offenses.

Aikman, Irvin, and Smith behind that Cowboys offensive line were nearly unstoppable.

One could make a fair comparison to the Chiefs offense in this case. Outstanding O-line, Trent Green, Larry Johnson, and Tony Gonzalez.


Turner has had a run of bad luck recently, but as mentioned, when your Quarterbacks are Kerry Collins, Heath Shuler, or Jay freakin Fiedler, its tough to have a passing attack that scares anyone.

With the Raiders, he isnt coordinating the offense. He might call the plays, but you still have to recognize that he isnt focusing all of his attention on the offense. Moreover, the Raiders offensive line sucks and Kerry Collins is a statue back there.

Im very confident that if Norv Turner were put in charge of the Kansas City offense, with the personnel that we have, he would have great success.

Ricky Williams was a damn beast for the Dolphins under Turner. Had the Dolphins had a legitimate QB, the passing game would not have been the joke that it was.

There's no telling how many records Larry Johnson could literally shatter under Norv Turner.

If you can get Jimmy Johnson out of hybernation as our HC, then I can see Norv being the O-coordinator. And we might as well get the other side too since Wandsted (sp?) is also jobless.

How about it CP? Let's reunite the three superbowl coaches from the mighty 1990s Cowboys??????

milkman
01-08-2006, 12:00 PM
If you can get Jimmy Johnson out of hybernation as our HC, then I can see Norv being the O-coordinator. And we might as well get the other side too since Wandsted (sp?) is also jobless.

How about it CP? Let's reunite the three superbowl coaches from the mighty 1990s Cowboys??????

I hope you some day learn something about the game of football.

htismaqe
01-08-2006, 12:06 PM
Yes, anyone is entitled to their own opinion but as you know some are more educated opinions then others.


This is it in a nutshell.

Ambuehl KNOWS football.

The rest of us are idiots.

Johnson&Johnson
01-08-2006, 12:23 PM
I hope you some day learn something about the game of football.

I don't understand what you mean by learning. I watched football more than I should (mainly NFL, less NCAAA). I love watching NFL networks, "6-days to Sunday" -a unique look inside the daily lives of an NFL player or coach as they prepare for the coming week's NFL game; practice field to the training room and film sessions. "Sounds of the Game" - game footage and exclusive game sound to illustrate the coaches' and players' comments and hear actual in-game sounds giving the fans specific context. sometimes they have classic games with sound as well, like the ones ESPN classic broadcast from classic NFL films. Basically I watched too much football and missed out on actually learning football I think. it's like when you're in a lecture I am absorbing what the professor is saying and missing out on the 5-10 students talking about what do to after class.

I thought the NFL Network was god answering my prayers. What I try not to do is read too much into sportwriters column because some of those guys write something up just from watching a team and a player in 1-2 games.