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C-Mac
01-08-2006, 07:45 AM
Chiefs pursue the perfect mix
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star
Herman Edwards is expected to be introduced as the Chiefs’ new head coach at a news conference Monday. Then, with a defensive-minded boss to go along with their high-powered offense, will all finally be right with the Chiefs’ world?
Maybe, and maybe not.
“I’m not positive about how that whole cocktail is going to mix,” CBS television analyst Randy Cross said. “Just because (Edwards) was recruited by Carl Peterson and played for Dick Vermeil doesn’t mean he is Dick Vermeil.”
In sending the Chiefs’ fourth-round draft pick to the Jets for Edwards, Peterson is trying for the best of both worlds. He is hoping at long last the Chiefs will respond defensively, something they never did for Vermeil or coordinator Gunther Cunningham, while retaining at least most of their offensive might.
That’s a tricky balance for any coach. In the Peterson era, the Chiefs have never been able to master it. They were competitive for most of their seasons under Marty Schottenheimer and Cunningham and their defensive philosophy, but never reached the Super Bowl.
They were then brilliant offensively in the five Vermeil years, but were undermined by a consistently lousy defense. Last week, Peterson indicated finding that balance would be a consideration as he searched for a new head coach.
“Specific to the philosophy of the Kansas City Chiefs going forward, I have to make that decision,” Peterson said. “We did a dramatic change from a player personnel standpoint and from a financial standpoint (under Vermeil). My two previous head coaches were defensive coaches. When I hired Dick, I knew where he was going to go. That’s why I made the trade for Trent (Green), I made the trade for Willie Roaf and brought in some other offensive people: Eddie Kennison, Priest Holmes.”
It doesn’t figure to be easy under Edwards. He showed no interest in his five New York seasons in a fast-paced offense. His teams were more conservative and relied mainly on the running game.
The Chiefs have the back to run that type of offense in Larry Johnson. The rest of their pieces were assembled for the type of offense the Chiefs used under Vermeil. Green hasn’t played in any other type of system since arriving in the NFL in 1993.
At least one offensive player, Pro Bowl guard Brian Waters, indicated many veterans wouldn’t accept big changes to the system.
“Anybody who comes in here will realize this is a pretty good machine as it is,” Waters said before the Chiefs hired Edwards. “They might want to put a little change here or a little change there, but this offense has been put together well. It would be a mistake to tinker with it too much.
“This is a veteran football team. That type of change would meet with a little resistance.”
Even if Edwards doesn’t want to scale back the offense, keeping pace may be difficult without offensive coordinator Al Saunders. Much of their success can be traced to Saunders’ willingness to continually attack the defense and because he fitted the system so well to the abilities of his players.
Saunders has been interviewing for head-coaching jobs since the Chiefs ended their season. He met with Peterson about the Chiefs’ vacancy before they hired Edwards and with Vikings officials before they hired Brad Childress.
He also talked with the Texans, will probably do so this week with the Lions and may wind up speaking with the Raiders.
The contracts of Saunders and the other Chiefs assistant coaches are up at the end of the month. The Chiefs may try to keep as many other offensive coaches in place as they can, but one assistant said nobody had yet contacted him about a contract extension.
The Chiefs had remarkable coaching-staff stability under Vermeil, particularly on offense. Saunders, Mike Solari (offensive line), Charlie Joiner (wide receivers) and James Saxon (running backs) were part of Vermeil’s staff from start to finish.
That stability, Cross said, was a major factor in the Chiefs’ success.
On defense, Edwards’ philosophy is far different from that of Cunningham, who for that reason probably wouldn’t be welcomed on the new staff.
Edwards prefers a defensive system known as cover 2, which features plenty of zone coverage and few blitzes. Cunningham favors a system with man-to-man coverage and pressure on the quarterback, often with exotic blitzes.

milkman
01-08-2006, 08:52 AM
One would assume, and hope, now that Carl has his HC in place that the offensive assistants are contacted about extentions, post haste.

chiefsfaninNC
01-08-2006, 08:57 AM
To hell with the assistants. Who is the OC?

milkman
01-08-2006, 09:15 AM
To hell with the assistants. Who is the OC?

Who the OC will be is a very important issue, but you can't dismiss the job these guys have done either.

How well a HC does is determined to a great extent by his staff, and by extention, an OC's performance is is influenced by how good his staff is.

NaptownChief
01-08-2006, 09:29 AM
Herm Average, as with most coaches unless they were great coordinators themselves, will only be as good as the coordinators he can put on his staff.

If he brings in very good coordinators then it should be a very good team, anything less will probably lead to a struggle. Going through 3 OC's in 5 years at NY we know he doesn't really have his own philosophy on that side of the ball nor does he have any good connection with an existing OC that would be worth bringing in. That probably bodes well for the current system staying somewhat in place.

MahiMike
01-08-2006, 09:35 AM
This article pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say. I don't care if Saunders gives Herm copious notes on how to coach the offense down to the minute details, every coach/person will interpret them differently.

Not hiring Saunders is gonna backfire in so many ways. Now even the veterans are warning about their displeasure...

Dammit Carl!!! :banghead:

Bowser
01-08-2006, 09:47 AM
ANY coach that comes in here and tries to tinker with this offense deserves to be flogged in public. But remember, even Marty Schottenheimer realized what he has on offense in San Diego. Edwards would be a retart to try and re-introduce this team as a "Three Yards and a Cloud of Dust" type of offense, Larry Johnson or no.

As for the defense, I don't think we will automatically jump to a Cover 2 phillosophy. We just don't have the personnel to run it as our base defense. I can see musch of the same for our D in 2006, with new wrinkles.

mlyonsd
01-08-2006, 09:51 AM
The Chiefs may try to keep as many other offensive coaches in place as they can, but one assistant said nobody had yet contacted him about a contract extension.


I suppose this makes sense....you have to have your HC signed before offering extensions to assistants.

But Jesus H Christ, at least talk to them about it and show interest in them staying.

philfree
01-08-2006, 10:52 AM
I wonder what was discussed when Carl intervied Al Saunders last week? I bet Carl asked Al if he'd consider working under Herman Edwards as OC if the price was right. Every thing I read says Saunders is gone if he doesn't get to be HC but I've never heard it from him. Is there any chance he'll stay to run the offense with Edwards as the HC? It wouldn't suprise me to see Saunders do what he did two years ago and take some big money to stick around.


PhilFree:arrow:

mlyonsd
01-08-2006, 10:54 AM
I wonder what was discussed when Carl intervied Al Saunders last week? I bet Carl asked Al if he'd consider working under Herman Edwards as OC if the price was right. Every thing I read says Saunders is gone if he doesn't get to be HC but I've never heard it from him. Is there any chance he'll stay to run the offense with Edwards as the HC? It wouldn't suprise me to see Saunders do what he did two years ago and take some big money to stick around.


PhilFree:arrow:

I'd easily match the Redskin's contract for their DC Williams.

Course, if I had Lamar's money beer would be free at Arrowhead.

milkman
01-08-2006, 10:58 AM
I wonder what was discussed when Carl intervied Al Saunders last week? I bet Carl asked Al if he'd consider working under Herman Edwards as OC if the price was right. Every thing I read says Saunders is gone if he doesn't get to be HC but I've never heard it from him. Is there any chance he'll stay to run the offense with Edwards as the HC? It wouldn't suprise me to see Saunders do what he did two years ago and take some big money to stick around.


PhilFree:arrow:

I just can't see it.

What would you do?

You've worked for the same company for 15 of the last 18 years.
You been passed up for a promotion three times, twice by guys that never proved they were as competent at their jobs as you have been.

You've shown over the last 5 years that you are the best at what you do.

Would you stick around, even for more money?

philfree
01-08-2006, 11:34 AM
I just can't see it.

What would you do?

You've worked for the same company for 15 of the last 18 years.
You been passed up for a promotion three times, twice by guys that never proved they were as competent at their jobs as you have been.

You've shown over the last 5 years that you are the best at what you do.

Would you stick around, even for more money?

I can see that but he had the chance to leave two years ago to be a HC for Al Davis and he stayed n KC. Stranger things have happened. See Gunther as Chiefs DC under the guy who took his job.


PhilFree:arrow:

jAZ
01-08-2006, 11:45 AM
On defense, Edwards’ philosophy is far different from that of Cunningham, who for that reason probably wouldn’t be welcomed on the new staff.
Edwards prefers a defensive system known as cover 2, which features plenty of zone coverage and few blitzes. Cunningham favors a system with man-to-man coverage and pressure on the quarterback, often with exotic blitzes.
Oddly enough, this is the only part of the article that troubled me at all. I've heard others point out that a change to the cover-2 system will require a change in personel (once again). I assume that's true and that is a concern given our moves last season.

It also concerns me because wasn't that the same basic system that we moved away from with Greg Robinson? I'm not saying it can't work, but that's some bad memories.

milkman
01-08-2006, 11:48 AM
I can see that but he had the chance to leave two years ago to be a HC for Al Davis and he stayed n KC. Stranger things have happened. See Gunther as Chiefs DC under the guy who took his job.


PhilFree:arrow:

I think that Al felt he still had an opportunity in KC, and was probably smart enough to stay the **** away from Al Davis.

milkman
01-08-2006, 11:51 AM
Oddly enough, this is the only part of the article that troubled me at all. I've heard others point out that a change to the cover-2 system will require a change in personel (once again). I assume that's true and that is a concern given our moves last season.

It also concerns me because wasn't that the same basic system that we moved away from with Greg Robinson? I'm not saying it can't work, but that's some bad memories.

The schemes are similiar.

The difference is philosphy.

Spinner's scheme was a passive one.

Kiffen's is aggressive.

As for personnel, we are essentially looking at better talent in the defensive front, something that we need regardless of scheme, and more speed at safety.

jAZ
01-08-2006, 11:52 AM
ANY coach that comes in here and tries to tinker with this offense deserves to be flogged in public. But remember, even Marty Schottenheimer realized what he has on offense in San Diego. Edwards would be a retart to try and re-introduce this team as a "Three Yards and a Cloud of Dust" type of offense, Larry Johnson or no.

As for the defense, I don't think we will automatically jump to a Cover 2 phillosophy. We just don't have the personnel to run it as our base defense. I can see musch of the same for our D in 2006, with new wrinkles.
Herm isn't going to TOUCH this offense. He'll bring in SOMEONE who can run it, even if it's not Al or one of our other offensive coaches.

A radical change on defense would be a concern. Should be intersting offseason.

Mr. Laz
01-08-2006, 11:54 AM
Herm isn't going to TOUCH this offense. He'll bring in SOMEONE who can run it, even if it's not Al or one of our other offensive coaches.

A radical change on defense would be a concern. Should be intersting offseason.
he'll HAVE to touch the offense ... if he doesn't it will fall into dust



a head coach can't just ignore either side of the ball imo

unlurking
01-08-2006, 12:01 PM
I just can't see it.

What would you do?

You've worked for the same company for 15 of the last 18 years.
You been passed up for a promotion three times, twice by guys that never proved they were as competent at their jobs as you have been.

You've shown over the last 5 years that you are the best at what you do.

Would you stick around, even for more money?
I can only speak out of what I'd do in Al's place, but if Carl offered me Gregg W. type money, I'd be open to considering it. I'd then have to have a "sit down" with Carl and Herm and find out exactly what kind of authority I'd be given. If I were told my system would remain in place, and that I could retain my entire staff (assuming they would all want raises as well and Carl would pay), and that I would have "almost" autonomous control over the offense, it would be hard to turn down.

This offense is Al's greatest coaching achievement (IMO). Career wise, I would consider this my "baby", and would not want it run by someone else. If assured by Carl that Herm was brought in to finally give me a defense to match my offense, I would very seriously consider it.

The allure of taking over somewhere else would be very intoxicating, but the possibilty of making the Super Bowl with my greatest career achievement would only pad my resume and would be one hell of a ride. "If" Herm can help fix this defense, it would also let me see what it takes to build a good defense, which would thoroughly round out my coaching experience so I would be better prepared in the future to succeed at taking over a HC position.

Again, this is just the way I would be looking at it, as I can't speak about Al's personality or the relationships he has within the Chiefs. I think I would be willing to work 2 more years though in hopes of getting a ring and rounding out my experience, and then move on for a final 5 year stint as HC somewhere, in hopes of winning another ring. At that point, I'd probably consider my football career a resounding success, and retire with my rings and millions of dollars on a boat somewhere.

Frankie
01-08-2006, 12:26 PM
Chiefs pursue the perfect mix
By ADAM TEICHER
The Kansas City Star
Herman Edwards is expected to be introduced as the Chiefs’ new head coach at a news conference Monday............

On defense, Edwards’ philosophy is far different from that of Cunningham, who for that reason probably wouldn’t be welcomed on the new staff.
Edwards prefers a defensive system known as cover 2, which features plenty of zone coverage and few blitzes. Cunningham favors a system with man-to-man coverage and pressure on the quarterback, often with exotic blitzes.
I don't know. Speaking as a spectator, I find Gun's style more exciting.

Frankie
01-08-2006, 12:29 PM
Herm isn't going to TOUCH this offense. He'll bring in SOMEONE who can run it, even if it's not Al or one of our other offensive coaches....

If Marty ends up in NY as some rumors suggest, maybe we can snatch Cam Cameron.

milkman
01-08-2006, 12:41 PM
If Marty ends up in NY as some rumors suggest, maybe we can snatch Cam Cameron.

My guess would be that Marty is there for another season, at least, but Cameron is at the top of AJ Smith's HC list when/if the Chargers and Marty part ways.

Dave Lane
01-08-2006, 12:56 PM
This article pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say. I don't care if Saunders gives Herm copious notes on how to coach the offense down to the minute details, every coach/person will interpret them differently.

Not hiring Saunders is gonna backfire in so many ways. Now even the veterans are warning about their displeasure...

Dammit Carl!!! :banghead:

I agree these are a scary couple of months coming up.

Dave

Johnson&Johnson
01-08-2006, 02:27 PM
Who the OC will be is a very important issue, but you can't dismiss the job these guys have done either.

How well a HC does is determined to a great extent by his staff, and by extention, an OC's performance is is influenced by how good his staff is.

How about Butch Davis for coordinator?

milkman
01-08-2006, 02:35 PM
How about Butch Davis for coordinator?

Davis background is on D, having served under Jimmy Johnson as DC before moving to Miami.

Though I think he might've been a RB coach or WR coach sometime earlier in his career.

Mecca
01-08-2006, 02:38 PM
I don't know. Speaking as a spectator, I find Gun's style more exciting.

I don't care what style is more exciting, I care what style gets the job done so we can win games.

philfree
01-08-2006, 02:43 PM
Norv Turner is probably the one coach that knows this offense as well as Saunders, DV and Mike Martz. Wasn't Martz Turner's OC when he coached the Skins? Green was there and played for Norv and I think I've heard him mention him a positive light so if Al does move on Turner would be my choice for OC. Hasn't Al already axed him? Getting Edwards on board as fast as it appears we have should give us a good chance to land a guy like Turner as OC.


PhilFree:arrow:

chiefsfan1963
01-08-2006, 02:48 PM
this is CP last chance before his exit. by letting go AS and hiring Herm, he has bet it all. I would love it if AS would stay, but I can't see this happening. If Herm doesn't work out and AS works out with another team, then finally I can see Clark urging for CP early retirement. I am hopeful that Herm like Vermiel will rely on his assistants to do their jobs and he sticks with what he does best. Herm will not only have to get this team in the playoffs next year but to the afc championship game.

chiefsfan1963
01-08-2006, 02:55 PM
williams is not staying b/c of the money he staying b/c he's gibb's successor. that's why he got the money. al will not be here next year, he's head coach material and the only reason why he isn't our HC is b/c of CP. It's the same reason why the Jets don't have Herm as their HC, and only got 4th rounder for him. Management didn't want him!!!!!!!!!

Frankie
01-08-2006, 03:11 PM
this is CP last chance before his exit. by letting go AS and hiring Herm, he has bet it all. I would love it if AS would stay, but I can't see this happening. If Herm doesn't work out and AS works out with another team, then finally I can see Clark urging for CP early retirement. I am hopeful that Herm like Vermiel will rely on his assistants to do their jobs and he sticks with what he does best. Herm will not only have to get this team in the playoffs next year but to the afc championship game.
There's no excuse for this team not, at least, making the playoffs next season. I believe with AS as HC we would have.

Johnson&Johnson
01-08-2006, 11:46 PM
Norv Turner is probably the one coach that knows this offense as well as Saunders, DV and Mike Martz. Wasn't Martz Turner's OC when he coached the Skins? Green was there and played for Norv and I think I've heard him mention him a positive light so if Al does move on Turner would be my choice for OC. Hasn't Al already axed him? Getting Edwards on board as fast as it appears we have should give us a good chance to land a guy like Turner as OC.
PhilFree:arrow:

No Turner. Turner had 2 years to show how well he uses the faders offense against our AFC West Foes.

I don't want you guys to start cussin him out when we start looking like retards on offense against DEN, SD and OAK. What's Turner's 2 years record against AFC West while at OAK?????? :shake:

Sully
01-08-2006, 11:56 PM
To hell with the assistants. Who is the OC?
Don't call it that.

Halfcan
01-09-2006, 12:01 AM
No Turner. Turner had 2 years to show how well he uses the faders offense against our AFC West Foes.

I don't want you guys to start cussin him out when we start looking like retards on offense against DEN, SD and OAK. What's Turner's 2 years record against AFC West while at OAK?????? :shake:


Just say no to Raiders and Broncos retreads-that includes coaches.

I you were AL-would you want to go to the Texans, Lions, or Raiders. Even the Packers are a mess. Stay here and ride it out.

RedThat
01-09-2006, 12:04 AM
No Turner. Turner had 2 years to show how well he uses the faders offense against our AFC West Foes.

I don't want you guys to start cussin him out when we start looking like retards on offense against DEN, SD and OAK. What's Turner's 2 years record against AFC West while at OAK?????? :shake:

He didn't have the players to run an effective offense in both Oakland and Miami....I think he is a pretty good co-ordinator...He did well in Dallas because he had the players....Look at what happened to our offense when Roaf went down? It sucked! Was it Saunders fault? Absolutely not.....I think people place to much emphasis and blame on co-ordinators, it's a shame...you NEED players!!! Every co-ordinator looks good if he has players...And every co-ordinator looks bad when he doesnt have players...It's common sense! Turner has a really good situation in KC with a great O-line, QB, RB, TE.....He could possibly be just as effective as he was in his Dallas days....Plus, Green has familiarity with him....Its a good situation imo

Count Alex's Losses
01-09-2006, 12:07 AM
Just say no to Raiders and Broncos retreads-that includes coaches.
.

Uh, hello? MARCUS ALLEN?

Halfcan
01-09-2006, 12:17 AM
Uh, hello? MARCUS ALLEN?

Yeah but he hated Al Davis more than the Chiefs do-so he was a perfect fit.

I was thinking more in the lines of Mcglockton and Dan Williams

philfree
01-09-2006, 02:05 AM
He didn't have the players to run an effective offense in both Oakland and Miami....I think he is a pretty good co-ordinator...He did well in Dallas because he had the players....Look at what happened to our offense when Roaf went down? It sucked! Was it Saunders fault? Absolutely not.....I think people place to much emphasis and blame on co-ordinators, it's a shame...you NEED players!!! Every co-ordinator looks good if he has players...And every co-ordinator looks bad when he doesnt have players...It's common sense! Turner has a really good situation in KC with a great O-line, QB, RB, TE.....He could possibly be just as effective as he was in his Dallas days....Plus, Green has familiarity with him....Its a good situation imo

Green played for Turner in Washington and Martz was the OC. If I recall Turner's offenses weren't too bad when he was with the Skins. That's where Trent played his first real stent in the NFL and he did good enough that Martz took him to St Louis to be the starter. He knows this offense as well as anyone we could hire as OC. In the words of Norv on the NFL Network commercial "That's not a bad idea".

PhilFree:arrow:

melbar
01-09-2006, 03:22 AM
I just can't see it.

What would you do?

You've worked for the same company for 15 of the last 18 years.
You been passed up for a promotion three times, twice by guys that never proved they were as competent at their jobs as you have been.

You've shown over the last 5 years that you are the best at what you do.

Would you stick around, even for more money?

Who proved that they were more competent ? When Al was a recievers coach our recievers sucked , and when he was a HC he also sucked. When Gunther was promoted we had been a top 5 defense for several years under his leadership. Herm has proven himself a playoff caliber HC. Al didnt. Not saying he cant , but its not exactly the way you represent it as if the 2 guys who passed over him werent as deserving.

Logical
01-09-2006, 04:00 AM
Norv Turner is probably the one coach that knows this offense as well as Saunders, DV and Mike Martz. Wasn't Martz Turner's OC when he coached the Skins? Green was there and played for Norv and I think I've heard him mention him a positive light so if Al does move on Turner would be my choice for OC. Hasn't Al already axed him? Getting Edwards on board as fast as it appears we have should give us a good chance to land a guy like Turner as OC.


PhilFree:arrow:No, Martz was quarterbacks coach when he coached under Norv Turner for the Redskins.

He then moved on to an offensive assistant’s position with the Los Angeles Rams in 1992, and after a stint as quarterbacks coach with the Washington Redskins, Martz returned to the (St. Louis) Rams as Offensive Coordinator in 1999.

tk13
01-09-2006, 04:15 AM
Who proved that they were more competent ? When Al was a recievers coach our recievers sucked , and when he was a HC he also sucked. When Gunther was promoted we had been a top 5 defense for several years under his leadership. Herm has proven himself a playoff caliber HC. Al didnt. Not saying he cant , but its not exactly the way you represent it as if the 2 guys who passed over him werent as deserving.
Actually we only finished in the top 10 twice under Gunther. That's really his claim to fame... 95 and 97. Those are the only two years we've had a top 10 scoring defense under Gun as a HC or DC.

philfree
01-09-2006, 04:19 AM
No, Martz was quarterbacks coach when he coached under Norv Turner for the Redskins.

O.K......Still my point is pretty much the same. Norv knows this offense and he knows Trent Green and he has done a great job as OC in helping at least one team win the SuperBowl. He also has HC experience which I think is good. He has tons of experience. Didn't you say you could get on the Norv Turner for OC bandwagon?


PhilFree:arrow:

Logical
01-09-2006, 04:27 AM
O.K......Still my point is pretty much the same. Norv knows this offense and he knows Trent Green and he has done a great job as OC in helping at least one team win the SuperBowl. He also has HC experience which I think is good. He has tons of experience. Didn't you say you could get on the Norv Turner for OC bandwagon?


PhilFree:arrow:Yes

Bob Dole
01-09-2006, 05:53 AM
Bob Dole isn't nearly as worried about a change in OC as he is in yet another shift in DC and philosophy so soon. We've got a proven track record on offense and a group of veteran players who know what the hell they are doing, and Saunders' playcalling has been questionable at times, anyway.

Another year of "we suck on defense because we're all learning our responsibilities in a new system" doesn't excite Bob Dole in the least.