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View Full Version : Where Is The Bar Set For Next Season?


NaptownChief
01-08-2006, 10:36 AM
Where is the bar for success set for Herm Average? Since he went 4-12 this season, will a 6-10 season be good since it is a 50% increase in his win total from the previous season? 9-7, 10-6 and matching the mediocrity that the Chiefs team posted this season? Or is it requried for him to improve upon the 10-6 for it to be consider successful? Or does next season not matter at all even if he went 4-12 since it will be his first year on the job and needs to get "his type of players in place"?

While I am being a bit of a smartass, I am curious as to what benchmark and standard the Herm Average supporters have in mind as reasonable expectations.

Pasta Giant Meatball
01-08-2006, 10:39 AM
Playoffs...he's got to get them to the playoffs.

the Talking Can
01-08-2006, 10:42 AM
I think the expectation is non-stop whining.

Any thing less would be a disappointment.

Skip Towne
01-08-2006, 10:46 AM
Let's all whine and bitch about him before he ever gets started. Naptown, don't you have some dud lineman to pimp?

mlyonsd
01-08-2006, 10:48 AM
I'm going on record as saying within 3 years the Herm/CP lovefest will hit a snag and they'll be at each other's throats.

NaptownChief
01-08-2006, 10:52 AM
I think the expectation is non-stop whining.

Any thing less would be a disappointment.


I would prefer non-stop excuses for the franchise from guys like you...Can we have that instead?

Bwana
01-08-2006, 10:59 AM
Playoffs

Count Alex's Losses
01-08-2006, 11:15 AM
I will not be satisfied with anything less than a playoff win.

DomerNKC
01-08-2006, 11:16 AM
gotta win at least one playoff game...mandatory.

Mr. Laz
01-08-2006, 11:52 AM
1. improved disciplined
2. ability to win on the road (mental focus)
3. win a playoff game

jspchief
01-08-2006, 11:57 AM
First year? I'd say 10-6 is a reasonable expectation. No reason to believe this team will be worse, and we're likely playing an easier schedule.

My hopes are for signs of improvement on D, better poise on the road, and status quo on offense.

Anything under .500 is totally unacceptable.

the Talking Can
01-08-2006, 12:03 PM
I would prefer non-stop excuses for the franchise from guys like you...Can we have that instead?

yeah, you're a hero for whining like a bitch...you and Gochiefs should just buy a double ended dildo and party like rock stars...

and where are my "non-stop excuses"....please list them, they must be easy to find since there everywhere....

StcChief
01-08-2006, 12:04 PM
at least 10-6. Playoff win.
Improved D.

FAX
01-08-2006, 12:05 PM
We have a Jacksonville-esque schedule next year. There is, frankly, no reason why we should not make the playoffs. I would also like to see fewer bar fights during camp, less weeping in general, and a sense that we have a plan for the future that doesn't include 5 4/12 years of rebuilding.

FAX

Bwana
01-08-2006, 12:09 PM
We have a Jacksonville-esque schedule next year. There is, frankly, no reason why we should not make the playoffs. I would also like to see fewer bar fights during camp, less weeping in general, and a sense that we have a plan for the future that doesn't include 5 4/12 years of rebuilding.

FAX

I don't know FAX. Tynes had a good season after the "bar fight" perhaps we need a little bit more of that kind of thing if it works this well. :)

FAX
01-08-2006, 12:18 PM
I don't know FAX. Tynes had a good season after the "bar fight" perhaps we need a little bit more of that kind of thing if it works this well. :)

You raise an excellent point, Mr. Bwana. I note Junior's performance in the bar exceeded his performance on the field by far. You're quite right, however, Tynes should be allowed to fight all he wants.

FAX

ck_IN
01-08-2006, 12:22 PM
For his first year as long as the record is .500 I'm ok with the w/l aspect.

The first year could be rocky as people come to realize they may be accountable for their play rather then the hug and pat on the head they're used to.

What I want to see in the first year is:

1. Fewer dumb penalties
2. Some focus and discipline
3. Ability to beat a winning team on the road.
4. No off field highlights.

DV lost control of his team just like I knew he would. That's the main reason he achieved the least with the most. Herm has to first kick that mentality to the curb.

FAX
01-08-2006, 12:28 PM
For his first year as long as the record is .500 I'm ok with the w/l aspect.

The first year could be rocky as people come to realize they may be accountable for their play rather then the hug and pat on the head they're used to.

What I want to see in the first year is:

1. Fewer dumb penalties
2. Some focus and discipline
3. Ability to beat a winning team on the road.
4. No off field highlights.

DV lost control of his team just like I knew he would. That's the main reason he achieved the least with the most. Herm has to first kick that mentality to the curb.

How can you really set your win/loss expectations so low, Mr. ck_IN? Have you seen our next year's schedule? Consider also that the only significant personnel loss we face is Will and that's not even definite. Roaf has said repeatedly that he wants to return.

What is this expectation of a .500 season based on? I'm really curious about this now.

FAX THE REALLY CURIOUS ABOUT THIS NOW

banyon
01-08-2006, 12:45 PM
First year? I'd say 10-6 is a reasonable expectation. No reason to believe this team will be worse, and we're likely playing an easier schedule.

My hopes are for signs of improvement on D, better poise on the road, and status quo on offense.

Anything under .500 is totally unacceptable.

These are two BIG question marks...(pun intended)

http://images.nfl.com/photos/img7049341.jpg

http://www.neworleansprofootball.com/pics/Roaf220.jpg

Chiefs w/ Roaf & Shields :11-5 & playoff win
Chiefs w/ Roaf, no Shields :10-6 & make playoffs
Chiefs with no Roaf or Shields :8-8 & another lousy draft pick

ck_IN
01-08-2006, 12:50 PM
I've seen our schedule but haven't paid it much attention. With drafts, FA signings, comings and goings a schedule this far in advance doesn't mean a whole lot.

Don't get me wrong I would like playoffs, 10-6 or better , etc. etc. But what I want to see is the DV stain removed from this team. I want this team of 'character' to stop being a team of characters off the field. I want to see a stop to stupid penalities at stupid times. I want to see some wins on the road. A road win requires focus and mental toughness, all of which lacked under DV.

I'm willing to cut some major slack in Herm's first year as long as I can see Herm de-DV this team in the process.

Dave Lane
01-08-2006, 12:58 PM
gotta win at least one playoff game...mandatory.

I agree that is the test. If he does that I'll back down.

Dave

FAX
01-08-2006, 12:58 PM
I've seen our schedule but haven't paid it much attention. With drafts, FA signings, comings and goings a schedule this far in advance doesn't mean a whole lot.

Don't get me wrong I would like playoffs, 10-6 or better , etc. etc. But what I want to see is the DV stain removed from this team. I want this team of 'character' to stop being a team of characters off the field. I want to see a stop to stupid penalities at stupid times. I want to see some wins on the road. A road win requires focus and mental toughness, all of which lacked under DV.

I'm willing to cut some major slack in Herm's first year as long as I can see Herm de-DV this team in the process.

Check it out, Mr. ck_IN. If we only defeat the teams we "should", and split the conference games, it's 11 wins.

HOME

Baltimore - W
Cincy - W
J'ville - W
San Fran - W
Seattle - ?
Donks - W
Poop - W
Sandy Eggo - W

AWAY

Arizona - W
Cleveland - W
Miami - W
Pittsburg - ?
St. Louis - W
Donks - ?
Poop - W
Sandy Eggo - ?

FAX

ck_IN
01-08-2006, 01:11 PM
It looks promising FAX but I don't know about a W against Cinci. They didn't even play that last game against us. If they seriously play their offense could destroy us.

On the other hand Jax has a nice defense, last night not withstanding. In short I don't even bother with schedules this early. This time in 2004 who knew that Cinci would have the 3rd best record in the AFC in 2005?

cdcox
01-08-2006, 01:23 PM
I expect Herm to turn the offense over to someone that can keep it humming. I expect him to improve the defense. I expect that he should help the team play tougher on the road and to have a sense of urgency when opportunities arise. The team underachieved this year. Next year I have the expectation that they will have a win total and playoff performance that will match the talent they have on the field.

If they fail to take advantage of what good things the Vermeil regime has put in place next year, I think we are in for a multiyear down cycle, that I doubt Herm will survive.

He's in a tough situation. To succeed, he pretty much needs to do it right away.

FAX
01-08-2006, 01:29 PM
It looks promising FAX but I don't know about a W against Cinci. They didn't even play that last game against us. If they seriously play their offense could destroy us.

On the other hand Jax has a nice defense, last night not withstanding. In short I don't even bother with schedules this early. This time in 2004 who knew that Cinci would have the 3rd best record in the AFC in 2005?

I understand your point well, Mr. ck_IN, and agree that we must recognize that the games have to be played, that, each year, teams move up and down, free agency can change a team's fortunes quickly, that anything can happen, etc.

Surely, you would agree that, regardless of all the unknowns and unknowables, setting a standard of .500 season is well below what should be expected of this team based on any reasonable standard of measure and this particular schedule.

As for Cincy and J'ville. We play both of these games at Arrowhead next year. Is it not clear that Cinci put up a pitiable performance against the Bills as well and are essentially backing into the playoffs having lost their last two? Their schedule this year was unimpressive at best. Minnesota (week two), Baltimore twice, Green Bay, Houston, the mighty Titans, Detroit, Cleveland twice, etc.

And, although thay do have a good defense, J'ville played what may prove to be the weakest schedule in the history of the NFL in order to garner their 12 wins. The term that comes to mind in both these cases is "overrated".

FAX

sedated
01-08-2006, 01:33 PM
1. Playoffs

2. Good Defense (top 20 in NFL)

3. Good draft, good outlook for rebuilding effort.

NaptownChief
01-08-2006, 02:07 PM
yeah, you're a hero for whining like a bitch.......


One of the biggest cry babies on the board casting stones from his liberal glass house. That is quality entertainment. Has big business, the lack of socialized health care and that mean nasty Bush family finally broken you down there Can?

NaptownChief
01-09-2006, 09:03 AM
So it appears that an extreme majority believe the team should be as good or better next year.

That said, if it isn't what should be done? The usual process of making excuses and plodding down the same course? Admit mistake and make another HC change?....or the other likely scenario of search for the guilty and fire the innocent(can assistant coaches)?

jspchief
01-09-2006, 09:12 AM
So it appears that an extreme majority believe the team should be as good or better next year.

That said, if it isn't what should be done? What do you think should be done? You've already determined that edwards is a failure, and started the new coach search. This is why the Chiefs job was far from the best coaching job available this off-season. The fans expect a continuation of what we had, from a team that is getting old and may lose some key players to retirement.

Out of available candidates, Edwards was probably best equipped to prolong what this team had going. Whether or not he succeeds, he's still probably the best candidate to try.

KCTitus
01-09-2006, 09:23 AM
I set the bar the same height as Nap, here, and that's a SB win. Should that happen next year, I will be along to find a way to talk it down somehow.

NaptownChief
01-09-2006, 09:57 AM
What do you think should be done? You've already determined that edwards is a failure, and started the new coach search. This is why the Chiefs job was far from the best coaching job available this off-season. The fans expect a continuation of what we had, from a team that is getting old and may lose some key players to retirement.

Out of available candidates, Edwards was probably best equipped to prolong what this team had going. Whether or not he succeeds, he's still probably the best candidate to try.


I haven't determined him a failure. I have zero idea as to whether he will succeed or fail. His track record indicates a solid dose of both could come at any given year. I am just trying to establish what the expectations are from those that really liked this choice. I know that a year from now those that were behind it will naturally make excuses if those expectations aren't met so if you don't ask up front you will not get a good indication of what truly was expected. For example, when DV was hired and given a 3 year deal even the huge supporters of Peterson and that choice said pretty much to a man that if they didn't bring us playoff success in those 3 years Peterson and Vermeil absolutely should be gone...3 years later they were fine with both getting extensions and trying some more.

Curious as to why Herm is a better candidate than Jim Fassel? Weeks ago I fully expected Herm to be the guy but not because he was necessarily the best candidate available but because he is a FOP which I fully expected to be the only really important factor in the process.

KCTitus
01-09-2006, 10:00 AM
I haven't determined him a failure. I have zero idea as to whether he will succeed or fail.

From another thread:

Anyone who thinks Herm Average was a good choice must want Carl Peterson making all decisions....We know how well that has worked out over his tenure.

Sure.

jspchief
01-09-2006, 10:08 AM
I haven't determined him a failure. I have zero idea as to whether he will succeed or fail. His track record indicates a solid dose of both could come at any given year. I am just trying to establish what the expectations are from those that really liked this choice. I know that a year from now those that were behind it will naturally make excuses if those expectations aren't met so if you don't ask up front you will not get a good indication of what truly was expected. For example, when DV was hired and given a 3 year deal even the huge supporters of Peterson and that choice said pretty much to a man that if they didn't bring us playoff success in those 3 years Peterson and Vermeil absolutely should be gone...3 years later they were fine with both getting extensions and trying some more.

Curious as to why Herm is a better candidate than Jim Fassel? Weeks ago I fully expected Herm to be the guy but not because he was necessarily the best candidate available but because he is a FOP which I fully expected to be the only really important factor in the process.I just think your insinuation that Edwards should be fired if he doesn't meet expectations in his first year is silly. Every coach in the league deserves at least 3 years IMO. As for making excuses, it will depend on if there are excuses. In any given year, a football team can have a number of legitmate excuses for not meeting expectations.

DV got an extension after taking the team to 13-3. The team had shown steady improvement. Anyone that thought he should be fired at that point is a moron. Maybe someone said they would give him 3 years to get the job done, but after the three years, they looked at the situation and realized that a 3 year deadline was premature. You can't hold people to something like that because expectations evolve as the situation evolves.

And the reason Edwards was a better choice than Fassel IMO is because Herm is a D minded coach, and Fassel is O minded. We need a spark in our defense at this point. I'm not a big Edwards guy. But if the goal is to get the most out of what's left of this current team, I think a guy with NFL head coaching experience is vital. That narrows it down to guys that have been fired, or guys that you have to snipe from another team. I'm not saying Edwards was the best coaching candidate. I'm saying he was the best candidate for what the team appears to be trying to do.

NaptownChief
01-09-2006, 10:11 AM
From another thread:



Sure.



Brian Billick backed into success despite proving himself to not be a good coach or decision maker....I wouldn't want Billick running the show and making decisions for the Chiefs the same as I don't want a coach that will roll over and let Peterson continue to pull all the strings....but that doesn't mean Peterson can't luck into success as Billick did. When you are given 16+ years odds are you will eventually luck into something good eventually...law of averages favor that especially in the days of salary cap and free agency.

KCTitus
01-09-2006, 10:14 AM
Brian Billick backed into success despite proving himself to not be a good coach or decision maker....I wouldn't want Billick running the show and making decisions for the Chiefs the same as I don't want a coach that will roll over and let Peterson continue to pull all the strings....but that doesn't mean Peterson can't luck into success as Billick did. When you are given 16+ years odds are you will eventually luck into something good eventually...law of averages favor that especially in the days of salary cap and free agency.

LOL! That's perfect useage of The Lexicon.

If KC wins the SB while Peterson is here it's because of Luck! I'll save this post, should hell freeze over and the unthinkable happen for you to use on that cold Febuary Monday morning to use while the rest of us celebrate the championship.

I couldnt have parodied this any better.

NaptownChief
01-09-2006, 10:21 AM
I just think your insinuation that Edwards should be fired if he doesn't meet expectations in his first year is silly. Every coach in the league deserves at least 3 years IMO. As for making excuses, it will depend on if there are excuses. In any given year, a football team can have a number of legitmate excuses for not meeting expectations.

.


I didn't insinuate he should be fired...Just threw out the possible options and looking for the resposes from those that have expectations that he should meet or exceed the level of the 2005 Chiefs.

As for excuses....Absolutely every team in the NFL in absolutely every year can come up with legitimage excuses as to why they failed. Every team has to put 22 offensive and defensive starters on the field, a kicker, punter and some special teams guys to go along with the coaching staff. With that many involved it is a lock that some of those guys will have injuries and or off the field issues during the year that will keep them from being as good as they could be. Everybody can always find excuses for why they fail in absolutely all walks of life. Good coaches, players and people are the ones who find reasons to succeed despite the excuses that are always available.

As for Fassel not being a defensive guy, well his background is as a offensive/QB guy but his teams he coached tell a different story. 4 times his Giants defenses ranked 9th or better in the NFL in points allowed and 3 of those times were top 5. So regardless of reputation results showed Fassel to get it done on the defensive side of the ball and actually better than Edwards did.

NaptownChief
01-09-2006, 10:23 AM
LOL! That's perfect useage of The Lexicon.

If KC wins the SB while Peterson is here it's because of Luck! I'll save this post, should hell freeze over and the unthinkable happen for you to use on that cold Febuary Monday morning to use while the rest of us celebrate the championship.

I couldnt have parodied this any better.



I blind guy can shoot 17 free throws and if one goes in Titus would be talking about the vast skill employed.

Logical
01-09-2006, 10:25 AM
I don't think we have the talent to get better, and I think the replacements will lower our capability temporarily. I don't expect any big free agent push this year as we are likely to hear the every other year cash strapped story.

KCTitus
01-09-2006, 10:29 AM
I blind guy can shoot 17 free throws and if one goes in Titus would be talking about the vast skill employed.

Well, maybe, but to me the SB <> Free Throw. More like a full court shot.

jspchief
01-09-2006, 10:31 AM
As for Fassel not being a defensive guy, well his background is as a offensive/QB guy but his teams he coached tell a different story. 4 times his Giants defenses ranked 9th or better in the NFL in points allowed and 3 of those times were top 5. So regardless of reputation results showed Fassel to get it done on the defensive side of the ball and actually better than Edwards did.What did his defenses rank after John Fox left?

joesomebody
01-09-2006, 10:55 AM
I expect at least 9-7, anything less isn't acceptable.

Playoffs should be a real possibility, but 9-7 or better is what I expect. He's a new coach sure, but he isn't coming into a team like the Texans, this team has a lot of veteran talent.

NaptownChief
01-09-2006, 11:00 AM
What did his defenses rank after John Fox left?


3rd the first year after he left...and 29th in his swan song 4-12 final season....Much like Edwards 23rd in his final 4-12 season.

Fassel and Edwards resumes are very similar with Fassel reaching higher levels of success reaching a Super Bowl. I will grant that playing in the NFC made that a little easier than Edwards being in the AFC but all be told very similar with a slight edge to Fassel and he didn't cost any draft pick compensation.

Only difference is he wasn't a FOP

Chiefnj
01-09-2006, 11:10 AM
I don't like the Herm hiring, but I'm holding off on my final opinion until he, or Carl, names the supporting staff.

That being said, the bar can't be set yet. It depends which direction Herm/Carl want to go. If they go into a rebuild mode I'd set the bar at 8-9 wins with an improved defense. If the gameplan is to keep things the same as the DV era the bar has to be making the playoffs. Knowing Carl, the plan is likely the latter and it will be a tough road for Edwards unless he can keep Saunders (extremely unlikely) and/or Solari.

Dunit35
01-09-2006, 12:18 PM
1. win a tough road game
2. get into playoffs
3. win a playoff game

that is all.

shaneo69
01-09-2006, 12:22 PM
I don't really care who the coach is, but each year my benchmark for the Chiefs is 11-5. At least 7-1 at Arrowhead and 4-4 on the road. If they're not 11-5, then it hasn't been a good year IMO.

ChiefFripp
01-09-2006, 12:25 PM
Yeah I'm not on the Herm train either but it's time to stop bitching and get behind the new coach. I mean he atleast deserves a chance, if he blows it big next season then sharpen your knives.

philfree
01-09-2006, 12:30 PM
I think I'll set my bar one week at a time. We need to quit focusing so far down the road as a team and get back to focusing on each week as it comes. I want Herm's boys to prepare each week like it's the only week and then give it all on Sunday. If that's done the number of wins and playoff appearance will take care of it's self. This "SuperBowl Or Bust" mentality needs to go away IMO. It doesn't help in regards to winning games and it actually hurts.


PhilFree:arrow:

NaptownChief
01-09-2006, 12:39 PM
This "SuperBowl Or Bust" mentality needs to go away IMO. It doesn't help in regards to winning games and it actually hurts.


PhilFree:arrow:


What if we lowered that to "A Playoff Win or bust" mentality since it has been 13 years since we even accomplished that?

htismaqe
01-09-2006, 12:43 PM
I never was a big Herm fan, but I've warmed up to the idea after reading some people here over the last couple of weeks.

I hope that he is allowed to turn over the coaching staff to his liking, but I'm guessing he won't. If he brings back Gunther and the rest, then anything less than making the playoffs is unacceptable.

philfree
01-09-2006, 12:46 PM
What if we lowered that to "A Playoff Win or bust" mentality since it has been 13 years since we even accomplished that?

NO. It don't mater who the GM is. If things aren't focused on the short run you'll most likely never meet your long run goal. The question was about Herm anyways and he ain't been HC for 13 years. This whole concept of bar setting is silly. Now sitting in a bar....well that's a whole different story.


PhilFree:arrow:

Hydrae
01-09-2006, 01:02 PM
One playoff win in his first year would signal to me that we finally are moving upwards. Otherwise I will resign myself to 5 more years of mediocrity and start praying for a decent GM when Carl leaves.

shaneo69
01-09-2006, 08:10 PM
I never was a big Herm fan, but I've warmed up to the idea after reading some people here over the last couple of weeks.

Yeah, after reading all the BS that GoChiefs' puts out here on a daily basis, it makes you root for Herm just to spite the little jack@ss.