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chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 08:54 AM
After seeing threads about the chiefs in Salary Cap hell for 2006 I decided to do the research. Here is what I found out so far. All player salaries come from nflpa.org and bonus info comes from various sources including espn, nfl.scout, scout.com, and cbs.sportsline. Players who have no contract for 2006 are listed as FA's. The player list is the roster found on kcchiefs.com


PLAYER.........SALARY......SB/year........OB......Cap number....Years left

Allen, J.........385,000.......94,000..........0........479,000............1
Barber,S.......2,750,000.....785,714........0.......3,535,714..........4
Bartee,W......1,100,000.....312,000........??......1,412,000..........2
Battle,J........460,000........106,250........0........566,250............1
Bell,K...........2,710,000.....500,000........??.......3,210,000.........6
Black,J...........................RFA
Bober,C........1,500,000.........0.............0........1,500,000.........3
Boerigter,M.....................UFA
Brown,D........545,000............0............0..........545,000..........1
Browning,J.....1,500,000.....600,000....300,000...2,400,000........3
Collins,T.........................UFA
Colquitt,D......310,000............0............0...........310,000.........2
Connot,S.......310,000............0............0...........310,000........2
Cruz,R...........310,000............0............0..........310,000.........1
Curry,N.........235,000............0.............0.........235,000..........1
Dalton,L.........................UFA
Dixon,A..........................RFA
Dunn,J..........670,000.......214,285.........0..........884,285.........4
Fox,K...........385,000........100,000........0...........485,000.........2
Freeman,E.....385,000............0.............0..........385,000.........1
Gammon,K.......................UFA
Garrett,K.......385,000............0.............0..........385,000.........2
Golliday,A........................RFA
Gonzalez,T....3,600,000.....1,142,857.......0........4,742,857........3
Green,T........5,700,000.....1,400,000.......??.......7,100,000........4
Griffin,K..........310,000...........0.............0..........310,000........1
Grigsby,B........310,000.........47,333........0.........357,333.........2
Hall,C..............................UFA
Hall,D...........1,250,000.......300,000........0........1,550,000.......3
Helms,G..........235,000...........0............0............235,000.......1
Heyer,P..........235,000...........0............0............235,000........2
Hicks,E..........2,100,000......500,000.......0.........2,600,000.......4
Hodge,A.........310,000...........0.............0...........310,000........2
Holmes,P.......3,250,000......2,500,000.....0.........5,750,000.......4
Horn,C............................RFA
Huard,D..........................UFA
Ingram,J.........385,000...........0.............0...........385,000.......1
Johnson,D.......310,000...........0.............0...........310,000.......4
Johnson,L........741,000.......472,857.....50,000....1,263,857......4
Kennison,E.....2,050,000......533,333........0.........2,583,333......3
Kilian,J............235,000...........0.............0...........235,000.......2
Knight,S.........835,000........540,000........??.......1,375,000.......4
McCleon,D.......2,000,000......400,000........0........2,400,000......2
McIntyre,J........235,000........20,000........0..........255,000.......2
Mitchell,C.........235,000...........0.............0..........235,000.......2
Mitchell,K.........460,000........330,000.......0..........790,000.......1
Parker,S..........385,000.........111,000......0..........496,000........1
Parquet,J........310,000.............0............0..........310,000.......1
Perkins,J.........235,000.............0............0..........235,000.......1
Perry,E.............................UFA
Richardson,T......................UFA
Roaf,W.........3,500,000......1,000,000.......0........4,500,000.......4
Sampson,K......385,000.............0............0..........385,000.......1
Sapp,B..............................RFA
Scanlon,R........385,000............0.............0..........385,000.......1
Shields,W......5,100,000......1,200,000.......0.......6,300,000.......1
Siavii,J............410,000........350,000........0........760,000.........4
Sims,R..........1,567,000......1,400,000.......0.......2,967,000.......4
Smith,M..........235,000............0.............0.........235,000........2
Stills,G..........1,100,000........75,000.........0........1,175,000......1
Surtain,P.......1,335,000......2,000,000......0.........3,335,000......6
Svitek,W..........310,000...........0.............0..........310,000.......2
Thorpe,C.........235,000............0.............0..........235,000.......2
Tynes,L.............................RFA
Ville,Z.............235,000............0.............0..........235,000.......2
Walden,W...........................RFA
Warfield,E......3,125,000........700,000........0.......3,825,000.......3
Washington,D......................UFA
Waters,B.........545,000............0.............0.........545,000........6
Welbourn,J.....1,400,000...........0.............0........1,400,000.......3
Wesley,G.......2,500,000.......650,000....400,000....3,550,000......4
Wiegmann,C...1,600,000.......600,000........0.........2,200,000......2
Wilkerson,J.........................RFA
Wilson,K..........385,000........500,000........0..........885,000.......2
Wilson,T..........235,000............0.............0..........235,000.......2
Woods,J........1,600,000.......550,000........0.........2,150,000......4

Total............65,843,000.................................86,627,629

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 08:58 AM
SB/year is signing bonus divides to yearly charge over length of contract. OB is other bonus That includes workout bonuses and roster bonuses. That number is charged to the cap in the year it is paid. Years left is the number of years a player has remaining under contract including 2006.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 08:58 AM
ROFL

So basically, the best collection of number you could find shows us UNDER the cap, not $25M over?

Amazing what a little research can do, huh?

:thumb:

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 09:03 AM
Here is an example how to use the chart. Mcleon makes 2 million this year plus SB at 400,000. If we cut him after June 1 then we save his 2 million this year but still get charged 400,000 this year and 400,00 next year. One number not include in my chart is Johnny Morton. We are taking a cap hit for him this year, but I couldn't find the number anywhere.

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 09:06 AM
ROFL

So basically, the best collection of number you could find shows us UNDER the cap, not $25M over?

Amazing what a little research can do, huh?

:thumb:


Yes, but I am missing numbers. I am sure Derrick Johnson gets a signing bonus. I couldn't find it. Also in Bell's contract he is due 6,500,000 in other bonuses. But I do not know to what years they are charged. So I didn't include them. Any ?? in OB's is a player due other monies but I couldn't determine the facts I just have the numbers

the Talking Can
01-18-2006, 09:09 AM
Yes, but I am missing numbers. I am sure Derrick Johnson gets a signing bonus. I couldn't find it. Also in Bell's contract he is due 6,500,000 in other bonuses. But I do not know to what years they are charged. So I didn't include them. Any ?? in OB's is a player due other monies but I couldn't determine the facts I just have the numbers

Teicher said, yesterday, that the Chiefs had no interest in retaining Bell and that he would be cut...he didn't source it just gave his opinion. Not sure how that affects us.

jspchief
01-18-2006, 09:09 AM
we won't be able to wait until June to make all our cuts. The new cap year starts in March, and all roster bonuses are due at that time.

Any potential cut that will hit us for a big roster bonus will be cut in March. Bell is a good example.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:10 AM
Yes, but I am missing numbers. I am sure Derrick Johnson gets a signing bonus. I couldn't find it. Also in Bell's contract he is due 6,500,000 in other bonuses. But I do not know to what years they are charged. So I didn't include them. Any ?? in OB's is a player due other monies but I couldn't determine the facts I just have the numbers

Of course.

My point is, you did the research. You don't have all the final numbers.

NOBODY ELSE has the final numbers either, save for the teams, the players, and their agents.

This idea that we're $25M over next year's cap is pure horseshit.

Lurch
01-18-2006, 09:12 AM
we won't be able to wait until June to make all our cuts. The new cap year starts in March, and all roster bonuses are due at that time.

Any potential cut that will hit us for a big roster bonus will be cut in March. Bell is a good example.

My understanding is there is a serious attempt to get a new Collective Bargaining agreement done by then too, and that would impact the cap numbers as well. If that doesn't happen, I think some players will be cut that will surprise some of us.

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 09:13 AM
Of course.

My point is, you did the research. You don't have all the final numbers.

NOBODY ELSE has the final numbers either, save for the teams, the players, and their agents.

This idea that we're $25M over next year's cap is pure horseshit.


I agree. Complete media BS

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:13 AM
Teicher said, yesterday, that the Chiefs had no interest in retaining Bell and that he would be cut...he didn't source it just gave his opinion. Not sure how that affects us.

Bell reportedly got a $10M tiered bonus, $3.5M of which was for signing.

He's reportedly due to get an additional $6.5M this year and one more time (next March?).

Right now, that $6.5M counts against next year's cap. When we cut him, that's $6.5M that disappears instantly. That's alot of money when you talk about the cap.

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 09:15 AM
we won't be able to wait until June to make all our cuts. The new cap year starts in March, and all roster bonuses are due at that time.

Any potential cut that will hit us for a big roster bonus will be cut in March. Bell is a good example.


Yes, but if we cut Bell we still take a hit of 3,000,000. I think we will cut him nonetheless.

jspchief
01-18-2006, 09:17 AM
My understanding is there is a serious attempt to get a new Collective Bargaining agreement done by then too, and that would impact the cap numbers as well. If that doesn't happen, I think some players will be cut that will surprise some of us.I have my doubts about getting a new CBA done in one month, unless they've been laying groundwork that hasn't been reported.

As for CBA driven cuts, KC is in good shape this year. The biggest problem isn't existing contracts, it's writing new ones. The Chiefs only have a few UFAs, and few of them will be retained IMO. T-Rich and Sapp, maybe Collins are the only guys that will need new contracts. All we can do is write 2 year contracts. So I don't think it will force any more cuts than usual, it will just tie their hands in regards to resigning guys.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:18 AM
Yes, but if we cut Bell we still take a hit of 3,000,000. I think we will cut him nonetheless.

Net savings of $3.5M, more or less, though.

We're responsible for his base, plus the pro-rated portion of his $3.5M bonus he got last year. But we'd be off the hook for the rest of his $6.5M tiered bonus.

jspchief
01-18-2006, 09:18 AM
Yes, but if we cut Bell we still take a hit of 3,000,000. I think we will cut him nonetheless.If we keep him, he hits our cap for over 5 million. Cutting him frees up 2+ mil in cap space.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:19 AM
I have my doubts about getting a new CBA done in one month, unless they've been laying groundwork that hasn't been reported.

As for CBA driven cuts, KC is in good shape this year. The biggest problem isn't existing contracts, it's writing new ones. The Chiefs only have a few UFAs, and few of them will be retained IMO. T-Rich and Sapp, maybe Collins are the only guys that will need new contracts. All we can do is write 2 year contracts. So I don't think it will force any more cuts than usual, it will just tie their hands in regards to resigning guys.

None of those 3, due to age (or position in Sapp's case) need longer than a 2-year deal anyway.

jspchief
01-18-2006, 09:22 AM
None of those 3, due to age (or position in Sapp's case) need longer than a 2-year deal anyway.I agree.

I don't know if it was by design, or by accident, but Carl has this team in good shape for the expiration of the current CBA. There are teams that are going to have a lot bigger problems than us. Think of Seattle trying to give Alexander a contract.

harpes
01-18-2006, 09:31 AM
Is the Shields number correct? I love the man but $6Mil seems a little high.

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 09:34 AM
Is the Shields number correct? I love the man but $6Mil seems a little high.


Yes it is correct. Salaries are from nflpa.org I guess the only question is the bonus. The signing bonus numbers I got from different media sources.

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 09:39 AM
This idea that we're $25M over next year's cap is pure horseshit.
not really... i don't think it's some media conspiracy :rolleyes:

but the key is to remember that we are Projected at $25 million over.


there's usually a huge amount of difference in projections and reality of what they team decides to do.


like kendrall bell ... due a 5 million dollar roster bonus plus a bump in salary. Not keeping bell could take 7 million out of that 25 without breaking a sweat.

i imagine Shields retiring is gonna take another 7 million

jspchief
01-18-2006, 09:43 AM
not really... i don't think it's some media conspiracy :rolleyes:

but the key is to remember that we are Projected at $25 million over.


there's usually a huge amount of difference in projections and reality of what they team decides to do.


like kendrall bell ... due a 5 million dollar roster bonus plus a bump in salary. Not keeping bell could take 7 million out of that 25 without breaking a sweat.

i imagine Shields retiring is gonna take another 7 millionYep. Also remember that teams use their excess cap room to pay down bonuses every year, and no one but the team and the NFL knows where that cap space was applied.

For example, taking 6 mil of cap space into the season, the Chiefs probably used it to either eat dead money (like what we're still paying for Morton), or to accelerate the hits of guys that may be cut soon (like eating all of Bell's signing bonus so he doesn't affect 2006 at all when cut).

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 09:46 AM
not really... i don't think it's some media conspiracy :rolleyes:

but the key is to remember that we are Projected at $25 million over.


there's usually a huge amount of difference in projections and reality of what they team decides to do.


like kendrall bell ... due a 5 million dollar roster bonus plus a bump in salary. Not keeping bell could take 7 million out of that 25 without breaking a sweat.

i imagine Shields retiring is gonna take another 7 million


If Shields retires we only save 5.1 million. We still pay the cap hit of 1.2 million for his signing bonus.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:46 AM
not really... i don't think it's some media conspiracy :rolleyes:

but the key is to remember that we are Projected at $25 million over.


there's usually a huge amount of difference in projections and reality of what they team decides to do.


like kendrall bell ... due a 5 million dollar roster bonus plus a bump in salary. Not keeping bell could take 7 million out of that 25 without breaking a sweat.

i imagine Shields retiring is gonna take another 7 million

We ABSOLUTELY agree.

*I* NEVER said I think it's a media conspiracy.

I've always emphasized the word "projected".

What I'm talking about is the propensity of several here to turn John Clayton's PROJECTIONS into "Dammit Carl! We're already $25M over next year's cap!"

RedThat
01-18-2006, 09:47 AM
not really... i don't think it's some media conspiracy :rolleyes:

but the key is to remember that we are Projected at $25 million over.


there's usually a huge amount of difference in projections and reality of what they team decides to do.


like kendrall bell ... due a 5 million dollar roster bonus plus a bump in salary. Not keeping bell could take 7 million out of that 25 without breaking a sweat.

i imagine Shields retiring is gonna take another 7 million

What if let's say Priest retired? Would you happen to know if that would affect our cap situation?

CoMoChief
01-18-2006, 09:48 AM
I see us keeping Bell and running a 3-4.

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 09:50 AM
If Shields retires we only save 5.1 million. We still pay the cap hit of 1.2 million for his signing bonus.
IIRC the chiefs have up to 12 months to actually file shield's retirement papers with the NFL.

so basically the chiefs can remove his salary but delay any cap hit until next year.

6.3 million that way

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:52 AM
What if let's say Priest retired? Would you happen to know if that would affect our cap situation?

It depends on what happens with the injury situation and how much of his bonus we get him to pay back.

We're already seeing this play out. Priest is going to multiple doctors in an attempt to get a diagnosis (IMO) that prevents him from playing. Then he gets to retire and keep his money.

jspchief
01-18-2006, 09:53 AM
IIRC the chiefs have up to 12 months to actually file shield's retirement papers with the NFL.

so basically the chiefs can remove his salary but delay any cap hit until next year.

6.3 million that wayAnd that's assuming that we actually spread the signing bonus evenly over the course of th 6 year contract. We could have been absorbing larger portions all along, especially in year one when his base was only 500K.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:53 AM
I see us keeping Bell and running a 3-4.

According to Jared Allen and Gunther, both in radio interviews, there's virtually zero chance of that.

Dave Lane
01-18-2006, 09:53 AM
So if Shields retires and we cut Bell we save $12m on the cap nice...

Dave

the Talking Can
01-18-2006, 09:57 AM
Bell reportedly got a $10M tiered bonus, $3.5M of which was for signing.

He's reportedly due to get an additional $6.5M this year and one more time (next March?).

Right now, that $6.5M counts against next year's cap. When we cut him, that's $6.5M that disappears instantly. That's alot of money when you talk about the cap.

me likey...cut his ass

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 09:57 AM
What if let's say Priest retired? Would you happen to know if that would affect our cap situation?

depends how the retirement happens...


i think there is a huge difference on whether Holmes HAS to retire for medical reasons. If Holmes just *chooses* to retire then i believe he has to repay a certain portion of his signing bonus. Like i said a post earlier the chiefs also don't have to file the retirement papers immediately.

Holmes got a big signing bonus IIRC ... if i'm reading chiefsfaninNC numbers correctly, Holmes still has 8-9 million of signing bonus yet to hit the chiefs cap. That's why he WON'T be traded.

best case senario for the chief's salary cap could free up a large chunk this year.

Potientially 10+ million dollars off the cap, if Holmes has to repay and the chiefs delay filing the papers.

but Holmes will fight repaying tooth and nail ... so it's a long shot.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 09:59 AM
depends how the retirement happens...


i think there is a huge difference on whether Holmes HAS to retire for medical reasons. If Holmes just *chooses* to retire then i believe he has to repay a certain portion of his signing bonus. Like i said a post earlier the chiefs also don't have to file the retirement papers immediately.

Holmes got a big signing bonus IIRC ... if i'm reading chiefsfaninNC numbers correctly, Holmes still has 8-9 million of signing bonus yet to hit the chiefs cap. That's why he WON'T be traded.

best case senario for the chief's salary cap could free up a large chunk this year.

Potientially 10+ million dollars off the cap, if Holmes has to repay and the chiefs delay filing the papers.

but Holmes will fight repaying tooth and nail ... so it's a long shot.

Absolutely agree...see my previous post.

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 10:00 AM
Absolutely agree...see my previous post.
we're both brilliant ... what's not to agree with?! :harumph:















:p

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 10:01 AM
we're both brilliant ... what's not to agree with?! :harumph:

:p

:D

Sully
01-18-2006, 10:02 AM
I had no idea you could pay different amounts of bonus "cap-wise" every year. I thought your hands were tied to the prorated amount. That is very interesting to know and I thank you for making me a better person.

RedThat
01-18-2006, 10:06 AM
depends how the retirement happens...


i think there is a huge difference on whether Holmes HAS to retire for medical reasons. If Holmes just *chooses* to retire then i believe he has to repay a certain portion of his signing bonus. Like i said a post earlier the chiefs also don't have to file the retirement papers immediately.

Holmes got a big signing bonus IIRC ... if i'm reading chiefsfaninNC numbers correctly, Holmes still has 8-9 million of signing bonus yet to hit the chiefs cap. That's why he WON'T be traded.

best case senario for the chief's salary cap could free up a large chunk this year.

Potientially 10+ million dollars off the cap, if Holmes has to repay and the chiefs delay filing the papers.

but Holmes will fight repaying tooth and nail ... so it's a long shot.

I agree. hmmm...interesting.....Thanx

phxchief
01-18-2006, 10:08 AM
The thing that hurts is when Bell is cut and finds another team who will use him to his strengths, the guy will probably make the Pro Bowl if he stays healthy.

Leave KC and turn into a Pro Bowler, join KC as a Pro Bowler and take a nose dive.

RedThat
01-18-2006, 10:09 AM
Thank you Laz and Htismaqe for sharing this information appreciate it guys. :thumb:

the Talking Can
01-18-2006, 10:09 AM
The thing that hurts is when Bell is cut and finds another team who will use him to his strengths, the guy will probably make the Pro Bowl if he stays healthy.

Leave KC and turn into a Pro Bowler, join KC as a Pro Bowler and take a nose dive.

the lexicon is strong with this one...

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 10:11 AM
I had no idea you could pay different amounts of bonus "cap-wise" every year. I thought your hands were tied to the prorated amount. That is very interesting to know and I thank you for making me a better person.
you can't on a regular signing bonus.


what JSP is talking about(i think) is the many different types of bonuses. (signing,roster,tiered signing etc)


Also how you can take the cap hit when a player is cut.


when a player is cut you have options about how the remaining portion of the signing bonus hits.

1. 100% the year player is cut
2. after june 1st cut 50% one year/50% that next year
3. after june 1st cut 40%/60% or 60%/40%


also retirement can delay bonus hit

jspchief
01-18-2006, 10:11 AM
I had no idea you could pay different amounts of bonus "cap-wise" every year. I thought your hands were tied to the prorated amount. That is very interesting to know and I thank you for making me a better person.As far as I know, a team has to pay an equally pro-rated amount at minimum. For example a 5 year contract, with 1 mil bonus, the team has to apply at least 200k every year (1/5), but could choose to apply all of it in any year.

One of the ways teams do that is by using up any excess cap space every year. They have up until October or November of each season to reapply that cap space to consume future hits.

Don't ask me for links to any of this. My knowledge of cap workings is based on years or reading, sports radio, and TV. I may have some facts wrong, but I'm pretty sure most of what I'm saying is accurate.

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 10:14 AM
The thing that hurts is when Bell is cut and finds another team who will use him to his strengths, the guy will probably make the Pro Bowl if he stays healthy.

Leave KC and turn into a Pro Bowler, join KC as a Pro Bowler and take a nose dive.

I feel that way too.

It's not just this year, either, with Bell and Surtain.

It does all the way back to guys like Wayne Simmons and Brentson Buckner...

jspchief
01-18-2006, 10:14 AM
you can't on a regular signing bonus.
I'm going to disagree here. I think that you have to apply the minimum equally pro-rated bonus, but can apply more in any year you choose.

kaplin42
01-18-2006, 10:17 AM
I see us keeping Bell and running a 3-4.


ROFLMAO!!! Thats pretty funny. I needed a good laugh, thank you.


You are joking right?

Amnorix
01-18-2006, 10:27 AM
Bonus discussion -- warning, long and boring:

There are different types of bonuses, with different consequences on the cap.

1. Signing bonus. This bonus consists of money given to the player when he signs the contract. For cap purposes, the signing bonus is pro-rated over the length of the deal. This is unavoidable and can't be adjusted. Note that there is a maximum number of years over which a signing bonus may be pro-rated (six, I think).

2. Roster bonus -- this is a bonus given to a player for being on the roster on date X (whatever it is). If he's not cut before that day, then the team owes him the bonus. This is usually used to force teams to make a decision about keeping or cutting someone earlier in free agency. If you force a team to make a big roster bonus payment on the first day of free agency, then you force them to decide, right then, whether they're going to keep that player next year or not. If you just give them a high salary, then the team could wait until the day before the season starts, because that's the day on which all player's season salaries become guaranteed.

Note that a team could, if it wished, pay a player a roster bonus instead of a signing bonus. The Cardinals, who are always waaay under the cap, did that a few years ago with one of their better players (don't recall who). Instead of a $10M signign bonus, they made it a roster bonus, so it would all hit their cap that one year, and not affect future years. If you're far enough under the cap to do it, it makes sense.

3. LTBE and NLTBE -- these are bonuses paid for performance. It is painfully complicated and not worth the time spent here, but suffice to say that if you give someone an incentive based on performance, then, it will either hit the cap that year (regardless of whether he earns it), or the next year (if he earns it) or nto at all (if a NLTBE and not earned). Teams can play ALOT of games with this system, including effectively rolling cap space this year into cap space for next year, to a limited degree.

Other cap notes:

1. players on the initial roster on the first day of the season (or three days before or whatever exact day it is) have their salaries guaranteed for that season, and it hits the cap immediately.

2. players added to the roster after that don't have guaranteed salaries, and can be cut and brought back at any time. The cap is hit by whatever is paid to them.

3. Without getting too complex about it, there is a system for older veterans where, if they are paid minimum for a veteran of that seniority, their cap number is actually much less (like 40% less than actual amount paid).

Note that the CBA is due to expire soon, which has a broad impact on many areas, both this upcoming season and thereafter if not renewed (i.e. the death of the cap).

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 10:28 AM
I'm going to disagree here. I think that you have to apply the minimum equally pro-rated bonus, but can apply more in any year you choose.
that would be a new one on me, never heard that before :hmmm:



are you sure you not thinking about when team restructure in the middle of a contract?

Amnorix
01-18-2006, 10:30 AM
I'm going to disagree here. I think that you have to apply the minimum equally pro-rated bonus, but can apply more in any year you choose.


Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 10:31 AM
It does all the way back to guys like Wayne Simmons and Brentson Buckner...
you mean the Brentson buckner who sucked so bad that we cut him but who is now starting for one of the league's best defenses?

that brentson buckner?










:(

htismaqe
01-18-2006, 10:35 AM
you mean the Brentson buckner who sucked so bad that we cut him but who is now starting for one of the league's best defenses?

that brentson buckner?










:(

Exactly. :banghead:

jspchief
01-18-2006, 10:41 AM
Bonus discussion -- warning, long and boring:

There are different types of bonuses, with different consequences on the cap.

1. Signing bonus. This bonus consists of money given to the player when he signs the contract. For cap purposes, the signing bonus is pro-rated over the length of the deal. This is unavoidable and can't be adjusted. Note that there is a maximum number of years over which a signing bonus may be pro-rated (six, I think).

2. Roster bonus -- this is a bonus given to a player for being on the roster on date X (whatever it is). If he's not cut before that day, then the team owes him the bonus. This is usually used to force teams to make a decision about keeping or cutting someone earlier in free agency. If you force a team to make a big roster bonus payment on the first day of free agency, then you force them to decide, right then, whether they're going to keep that player next year or not. If you just give them a high salary, then the team could wait until the day before the season starts, because that's the day on which all player's season salaries become guaranteed.

Note that a team could, if it wished, pay a player a roster bonus instead of a signing bonus. The Cardinals, who are always waaay under the cap, did that a few years ago with one of their better players (don't recall who). Instead of a $10M signign bonus, they made it a roster bonus, so it would all hit their cap that one year, and not affect future years. If you're far enough under the cap to do it, it makes sense.

3. LTBE and NLTBE -- these are bonuses paid for performance. It is painfully complicated and not worth the time spent here, but suffice to say that if you give someone an incentive based on performance, then, it will either hit the cap that year (regardless of whether he earns it), or the next year (if he earns it) or nto at all (if a NLTBE and not earned). Teams can play ALOT of games with this system, including effectively rolling cap space this year into cap space for next year, to a limited degree.

Other cap notes:

1. players on the initial roster on the first day of the season (or three days before or whatever exact day it is) have their salaries guaranteed for that season, and it hits the cap immediately.

2. players added to the roster after that don't have guaranteed salaries, and can be cut and brought back at any time. The cap is hit by whatever is paid to them.

3. Without getting too complex about it, there is a system for older veterans where, if they are paid minimum for a veteran of that seniority, their cap number is actually much less (like 40% less than actual amount paid).

Note that the CBA is due to expire soon, which has a broad impact on many areas, both this upcoming season and thereafter if not renewed (i.e. the death of the cap).What is your source? Several things you posted differ from the way I've come to understand the cap. Like I said in an earlier post, I can't give sources for my knowledge because it's accumulated from various sources over years, and I may be wrong on some things.

I wish there was a detailed resource that explained the NFL salary cap. Everything I've ever found has been very broad and obscure. I realize it's complex and probably boring to a lot of people, but I'm very interested in how it all works.

JohnnyV13
01-18-2006, 10:45 AM
I have my doubts about getting a new CBA done in one month, unless they've been laying groundwork that hasn't been reported.

As for CBA driven cuts, KC is in good shape this year. The biggest problem isn't existing contracts, it's writing new ones. The Chiefs only have a few UFAs, and few of them will be retained IMO. T-Rich and Sapp, maybe Collins are the only guys that will need new contracts. All we can do is write 2 year contracts. So I don't think it will force any more cuts than usual, it will just tie their hands in regards to resigning guys.


No..the rule is you can't write a contract more than 5 years beyond the last capped year. That means you can only write a 6 year contract right now. However, if you are an agent and you think you have a real shot at an uncapped year, you're gonna lose lots of clients if they aren't FAs that year.

Btw...as long as it is an uncapped year, the June 1 date means nothing.You can't push part of the sb into the next year b/c there's no CBA to cover it. Therefore any player cut, even after June1, will cause bonus acceleration into 06.

Mr. Laz
01-18-2006, 10:49 AM
No..the rule is you can't write a contract more than 5 years beyond the last capped year.

actually i believe you can write a contract beyond the last capped year.


you just cant have the signing bonus pro rated past the last capped year.

at least that was my understanding


it's really going to be hard for this upcoming draft... signing a top 3 quarterback without being able to heavily pro rate the SB is gonna hurt.

matt leniart/vince young will prolly take awhile to sign.

Lurch
01-18-2006, 10:57 AM
What is your source? Several things you posted differ from the way I've come to understand the cap. Like I said in an earlier post, I can't give sources for my knowledge because it's accumulated from various sources over years, and I may be wrong on some things.

I wish there was a detailed resource that explained the NFL salary cap. Everything I've ever found has been very broad and obscure. I realize it's complex and probably boring to a lot of people, but I'm very interested in how it all works.

It's all probably in here somewhere.....

NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement (http://www.nflpa.org/Members/main.asp?subPage=CBA+Complete#art24)

JohnnyV13
01-18-2006, 11:05 AM
actually i believe you can write a contract beyond the last capped year.


you just cant have the signing bonus pro rated past the last capped year.

at least that was my understanding


it's really going to be hard for this upcoming draft... signing a top 3 quarterback without being able to heavily pro rate the SB is gonna hurt.

matt leniart/vince young will prolly take awhile to sign.


Er, laz...i'm saying the max contract length is 5 years beyond the last capped year e.g. a 6 year contract. This term is in the CBA (yeah, i actually read about this term, but i'm a lawyer so i can decipher it).

However, when you are talking about a complex document like the CBA, a cursory look might not grasp all the ins and outs.

Lurch
01-18-2006, 11:12 AM
It's all probably in here somewhere.....

NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement (http://www.nflpa.org/Members/main.asp?subPage=CBA+Complete#art24)

Wow, being a lawyer has got to suck balls. I think the answers are there if you are willing to dig.

Amnorix
01-18-2006, 11:16 AM
What is your source? Several things you posted differ from the way I've come to understand the cap. Like I said in an earlier post, I can't give sources for my knowledge because it's accumulated from various sources over years, and I may be wrong on some things.

I wish there was a detailed resource that explained the NFL salary cap. Everything I've ever found has been very broad and obscure. I realize it's complex and probably boring to a lot of people, but I'm very interested in how it all works.


My source is the same as yours. Years of just paying attention.

Amnorix
01-18-2006, 11:22 AM
For those interested, this web page lists a number of resources you can use to figure out cap items. Of ocurse, nothing is definitive except the CBA itself, which is too painful to deal with.

http://www.patscap.com/capsources.html

chiefsfaninNC
01-18-2006, 04:45 PM
Bell reportedly got a $10M tiered bonus, $3.5M of which was for signing.

He's reportedly due to get an additional $6.5M this year and one more time (next March?).

Right now, that $6.5M counts against next year's cap. When we cut him, that's $6.5M that disappears instantly. That's alot of money when you talk about the cap.


We do not know that. He has a contract worth 6.5 million but it could be all due in 2006 or portions due every year. I am sure he is due a roster bonus for 2006 but I am equally sure it is not the entire 6.5 million. I am sure he will be cut before the roster bonus comes due in in March. That means his entire 3 million in SB comes due for 2006. His salary does not apply, we do not pay anything of the OB. Basically we carry Bell on the cap for 3 million.

Mr. Kotter
01-18-2006, 06:32 PM
It's all probably in here somewhere.....

NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement (http://www.nflpa.org/Members/main.asp?subPage=CBA+Complete#art24)

Hey, can anyone with legal training wade through the bullshit of the Salary Cap provisions and put it in plain understandable English....or at least critique Amnorix's interpretation based on what the CBA says.

Thanks in advance. :thumb:

chiefsfaninNC
01-22-2006, 08:21 AM
I am bringing this back up. We are not 22 million over the cap. We do have problems, and I am not expecting much from FA's this year. I am missing a few numbers. Derrick Johnson should have a signing bonus. Welbourne and Waters may have sigining bonuses as well. Otherwise these numbers are pretty accurate. My best guess is we are setting at about 90 million BEFORE any roster bonuses are due.

chiefsfaninNC
01-22-2006, 08:25 AM
I saw someone say Hicks needs to be cut. I don't think we will do it. His cap number this year is 2.6 million. If we cut him ignore his salary and pay his SB/yr times years left on contract which is 2 million. We save 600,000 this year to cut Hicks. Who can we sign at 600,000 to replace him?

HMc
01-22-2006, 08:49 AM
I had a bit of a read of the CBA (very dry, even by legal standards) and it only mentioned "Prorated". In latin, "Pro rata" means "according to the rate". Every experience ive had with the term has suggested that the number is divided proportionatly, or equally.

That, and the lack of any further provision in the document, suggests to me that the teams have to pay the bonus equally over the contract years. Until they cut, naturally.

BigRedChief
01-22-2006, 08:55 AM
A good site that shows the base salaries and contract lengths of Chiefs players is:
http://www.chiefswarpath.com/resources/playersalaries.htm (http://www.chiefswarpath.com/resources/playersalaries.htm)


King Carl has already said that the Chiefs are in good shape cap wise and they should be able to pick up a few FA's this winter.

BigRedChief
01-22-2006, 08:58 AM
#'s from here:http://www.chiefswarpath.com/resources/playersalaries.htm
Players that need or will be cut or retire before the start of the next season.
#'s are in millions.
Barber 2.7
Bell 2.7
Hicks 2.1
Priest 3.25
McCleon 2.0
Wesley 2.5
Woods 1.6
Shields 5.1
total = $22 Million

If Roaf doesn't come back add in 3.5 million to this total.

But remember if we do cut this salary above their signing bonus money will have to be paid in 2006 or if cut after June 1st then in 2006-2007. Which will obviously cut down on saving cap room.

Big salaries next year. Gonzalez 3.6 mill and Trent 5.7 million

JohnnyV13
01-22-2006, 10:25 AM
The other thing about this offseason is that there is no "June 1" exception for pro rating signing bonuses. That' because this is the last capped year, so until there is a new CBA that covers 07, there is no benefit to cutting someone after June 1. The sb still accelerates like normal.

chiefsfaninNC
01-22-2006, 10:31 AM
I had a bit of a read of the CBA (very dry, even by legal standards) and it only mentioned "Prorated". In latin, "Pro rata" means "according to the rate". Every experience ive had with the term has suggested that the number is divided proportionatly, or equally.

That, and the lack of any further provision in the document, suggests to me that the teams have to pay the bonus equally over the contract years. Until they cut, naturally.


Yes, signing bonus is divided over length of contract. Say for example LJ signs a contract for 7 years that has a 21 million signing bonus. Then the cap number on the signing bonus is 3 million per year. But if you cut LJ when he has 3 years remaining on contract then the bonus money comes due (since you have already paid it to the player). If you cut him before June 1st then all 9 million comes due for that capped year (3 million times 3 years). If you cut him after June 1st then you can split the cap hit over two consecutive years which means 4.5 million this year and 4.5 million next year.

chiefsfaninNC
01-22-2006, 10:47 AM
The other thing about this offseason is that there is no "June 1" exception for pro rating signing bonuses. That' because this is the last capped year, so until there is a new CBA that covers 07, there is no benefit to cutting someone after June 1. The sb still accelerates like normal.


That is untrue. Everything about this offseason is the same. The question becomes whether or not the following year is an uncapped year. During the offseason teams will operate the same as in the past. Upshaw doesn't want the cap any longer. He wants more TV money for the players. But if you look at baseball everyone knows this would be bad for the NFL.

JohnnyV13
01-22-2006, 11:02 AM
That is untrue. Everything about this offseason is the same. The question becomes whether or not the following year is an uncapped year. During the offseason teams will operate the same as in the past. Upshaw doesn't want the cap any longer. He wants more TV money for the players. But if you look at baseball everyone knows this would be bad for the NFL.


Uhhh, the footnote for Section 7 (b)(ii)(2) of the CBA (page 102) states:

* During any League Year immediately preceding an Uncapped Year, the provisions relating to acceleration of unamortized signing bonuses applicable on or before June 1 of that League Year shall apply during that League Year after June 1.

That means if you cut someone after June 1 this season, its just the same as cutting him before June 1, because 2007 is an uncapped year.

chiefsfaninNC
01-22-2006, 11:14 AM
Uhhh, the footnote for Section 7 (b)(ii)(2) of the CBA (page 102) states:

* During any League Year immediately preceding an Uncapped Year, the provisions relating to acceleration of unamortized signing bonuses applicable on or before June 1 of that League Year shall apply during that League Year after June 1.

That means if you cut someone after June 1 this season, its just the same as cutting him before June 1, because 2007 is an uncapped year.


Unamortized signing bonuses are considered Work out bonuses, roster bonuses, and incentives. In my chart they are called OB (other bonuses). What I call signing bonuses are amortized.

JohnnyV13
01-22-2006, 12:25 PM
If you read the CBA, that section clearly talks about cutting a player before his contract is up, so that the usused portion of that signing bonus is accelerated into the year you cut him.

If you do it after June 1, you can push that acceleration into the next league year. BUT when the next year is an uncapped league year, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

Frankly, you need to actually look at the CBA like I have. You will realize I am correct.

JohnnyV13
01-22-2006, 12:38 PM
Unamortized signing bonuses are considered Work out bonuses, roster bonuses, and incentives. In my chart they are called OB (other bonuses). What I call signing bonuses are amortized.

The CBA states:

Except as set forth in [the] Paragraph [to follow], the full non-guaranteed amount of any Salary advance, off-season work-out bonus, off-season roster bonus, or off-season reporting bonus shall be included in Team Salary only in the League Year in which it is earned by the player, without any pro-ration. For purposes of this paragraph only, “guaranteed” means Salary that is fully guaranteed, prior to being earned, for skill, for injury, and regardless of any termination of the contract by the Club.

that means the "unamortized bonus" referred to in the section I cited aren't workout bonuses, roster bonses, and incentives. Those bonses are included as SALARY. The only "Other bonus" that won't be included in salary are Likely to be earned incentives, which are included in the cap but aren't called salary.

B_Ambuehl
01-22-2006, 01:13 PM
Wow there's a lot of homerism on this thread.

We'll see next year. But don't be surprised if the chiefs lose more talent then they gain.

HMc
01-22-2006, 05:50 PM
Yes, signing bonus is divided over length of contract. Say for example LJ signs a contract for 7 years that has a 21 million signing bonus. Then the cap number on the signing bonus is 3 million per year. But if you cut LJ when he has 3 years remaining on contract then the bonus money comes due (since you have already paid it to the player). If you cut him before June 1st then all 9 million comes due for that capped year (3 million times 3 years). If you cut him after June 1st then you can split the cap hit over two consecutive years which means 4.5 million this year and 4.5 million next year.

Yes, we're all fairly familiar with the general details, thankyou. My post was in response to some uncertainty as to whether the yearly SB portion could be different between years.

chiefsfaninNC
01-23-2006, 11:15 AM
Yes, we're all fairly familiar with the general details, thankyou. My post was in response to some uncertainty as to whether the yearly SB portion could be different between years.


No. It cannot be different. It is equally divided over the length of the contract.

htismaqe
01-23-2006, 11:41 AM
Wow there's a lot of homerism on this thread.

We'll see next year. But don't be surprised if the chiefs lose more talent then they gain.

I think you'll find that most people on this thread have said they don't anticipate signing any free agents this offseason...