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View Full Version : Will Herm install a 3-4?


redhed
01-20-2006, 09:22 AM
It would seem we have the LBs to do it. (Paging Mr. Fujita, oh wait)
Or maybe we could go '85Bearstyle with the 5-2. :rolleyes:
Mel Kiper Jr. (idiot) says we're gonna take a CB as a 1st rounder. I think we should go DL(NT).

ChiefsfaninPA
01-20-2006, 09:24 AM
It would make sense to run a 3-4. Wonder why they already aren't?

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 09:25 AM
Herm grew up coaching "Tampa 2" (i.e. cover 2) and played a 4-3 exclusively with the Jets, also mostly cover 2.

With Gun as your DC (also a 4-3 guy) I see no reason why anyone would be trying to switch to a 3-4. I also don't think you have the right personnel for it, really.

redhed
01-20-2006, 09:28 AM
Herm grew up coaching "Tampa 2" (i.e. cover 2) and played a 4-3 exclusively with the Jets, also mostly cover 2.

Maybe that's why Kiper has us taking a CB in the 1rst.

With Gun as your DC (also a 4-3 guy) I see no reason why anyone would be trying to switch to a 3-4. I also don't think you have the right personnel for it, really.

To me, it just seems that LBs are the most solid part of the D. But that ain't sayin' much.

Lurch
01-20-2006, 09:35 AM
I think a "Tampa Cover 2" would be more likely. Though we have the LBs for the 4-3, we are a serious DT and probably a DE away from being able to field the front 7 you need for a 3-4.

jAZ
01-20-2006, 09:36 AM
Apparently it's necessary to have a big NT in the 3-4, which we don't seem to have?

I've always thought we had the LBers to do 3-4, but the above fact is always thrown back at me.

Mr. Christopher
01-20-2006, 09:37 AM
To successfully run a 3-4, I think there needs to be a dominant nose tackle and at least four or five dominant LBs. Right now, we don't have either of those, but I think with a few additions, the defense will be pretty decent next year.

I really think Gunther is a decent DC, and the addition of a defensive minded head coach will turn the defense around next year. I'm not saying that it will be a top 5, but it will definately be better than in years past.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 09:37 AM
Maybe that's why Kiper has us taking a CB in the 1rst.

I think he has you taking a CB cuz you've got one CB who is quite good, and no others.

IMHO, Tampa 2 wants a really good defensive line (what defense doesn't), a great Middle Linebacker (ditto) and at least one strong, smart, reasonably fast safety (like a younger Lynch).

To me, it just seems that LBs are the most solid part of the D. But that ain't sayin' much.

Maybe, but you need a true nose guard that can hold the point against double teams. They're tough to find, and without one the 3-4 just won't work at all. You also need bigger LBs than in the 4-3. A 4-3 ideally has 2 DTs at 300+, 2 DEs who will usually run 280-295, and 3 LBs who usually are in the 235'ish range.

The 3-4 is looking for a 320+ NG (there are exceptions), 2 DEs who are 300+, and 4 linebackers who are 245+.

The linebackers don't need to have the speed in the 3-4 that they do in the 4-3, but they need to be bigger, cuz they're oftent aking on guards head to head.

jspchief
01-20-2006, 09:39 AM
Not only do we not have the D-line for a 3-4, we also don't have great OLBs for it. Plus Allen wouldn't fit anywhere in a 3-4. we'd have to make him a OLB.

Lurch
01-20-2006, 09:39 AM
Maybe that's why Kiper has us taking a CB in the 1rst.



To me, it just seems that LBs are the most solid part of the D. But that ain't sayin' much.

A FA acquisition at CB is more likely IMO. We are okay at CB, but need some depth unless Hodge and Sapp can step up big. If we go 3-4, we need a certifiable stud at NT, and we'd need to add at least one Jason Taylor type DE. Getting BOTH of those players in the draft would be a real trick, and highly unlikely. I also think it would be really tough for us to sign more than two impact FAs--and one of those should a WR.

Lurch
01-20-2006, 09:40 AM
Not only do we not have the D-line for a 3-4, we also don't have great OLBs for it. Plus Allen wouldn't fit anywhere in a 3-4. we'd have to make him a OLB.

Allen at OLB would be worth a look IMO.

redhed
01-20-2006, 09:40 AM
I really think Gunther is a decent DC, and the addition of a defensive minded head coach will turn the defense around next year. I'm not saying that it will be a top 5, but it will definately be better than in years past.

Like JoPo says, it's the return of "boring" football.
Bring on the D!! :drool:

John Matrix
01-20-2006, 09:41 AM
We lack the ends and the NT to run a 3-4. Allen is a bit of an undersized DE, in a 3-4 he'd get eaten alive. Hicks might be alright in a 3-4, but he sucks, and should really only be a backup, anyway. If Siavii actually wanted to play football instead of be completely insane and worthless, then perhaps he could be a size-eating NT, but I think we all know that we have a better job of getting blown by Kate Beckinsale than we do of that happening.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 09:41 AM
Apparently it's necessary to have a big NT in the 3-4, which we don't seem to have?

I've always thought we had the LBers to do 3-4, but the above fact is always thrown back at me.

There aer exceptions to the big NG rule. I think the Steelers NG, (Casey Hampton) is like 310 or something, which is fairly small for a NG.

Put it this way -- in the 3-4, you have a NG who needs to hold the point against double-teams, and inside linebackers who can deal with guards trying to block them.

Patriots, just for example, currently:

NG Wilfork: 325+
DE Seymour: 310
DE Warren: 305
OLB: Colvin: 235
ILB: Vrabel: 260
ILB: Bruschi: 245
OLB: McGinest: 270

You could check the starting front 7 for the Chargers and Steelers to see what package those guys use, but that's what you're looking at for one team at least.

Mr. Christopher
01-20-2006, 09:42 AM
Like JoPo says, it's the return of "boring" football.
Bring on the D!! :drool:
Yes and no...I hope it's the return of smashmouth defense as in the mid-90's. But I'm hoping that Solari will keep the uptempo offense, rather than the old Marty ball or the return of RBbC.

Lurch
01-20-2006, 09:42 AM
Apparently it's necessary to have a big NT in the 3-4, which we don't seem to have?

I've always thought we had the LBers to do 3-4, but the above fact is always thrown back at me.

DJ, Fox, Mitchell would be good LBs in a 3-4. Bell might work, if he gets in shape and moves back inside. Griffin is promising, and Grigsby might be a good backup. That leaves us thin at LB....especially OLB.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 09:42 AM
On Allen -- as others have said -- must get moved to OLB. Great pass-rushers in the 3-4 aren't the defensive linemen, they're the linebackers. A fast defensive lineman who can rush the QB is wasted in a 3-4 system.

John Matrix
01-20-2006, 09:42 AM
What if we turned Bell into a DE...

Lurch
01-20-2006, 09:44 AM
What if we turned Bell into a DE...
Flip-floppin he and Allen may sound crazy, but I'd at least look at it.

tiptap
01-20-2006, 09:44 AM
Apparently it's necessary to have a big NT in the 3-4, which we don't seem to have?

I've always thought we had the LBers to do 3-4, but the above fact is always thrown back at me.

If you do a comparison of weights for the 4 lineman in a 4-3 and the 3 lineman in a 3-4 you will find that the 3 lineman average 10 lbs more than the 4 lineman. In addition the additional absolute weight lost on the line in a 3-4 (one less man even if they individually weigh more) is made up by having larger LB usually. The LB is a 3-4 tend to weigh 5 to 10 lbs more than LB in 4-3. The LB are larger in part so that they can take on Off lineman in both run and especially in pass rushing. The disguised notion of where the 4th pass rusher is coming from.

However if we have 3rd and long situations I do think the Falcon or a 3-4 alignment would work for the Chiefs. Just not all the time alignment.

jspchief
01-20-2006, 09:45 AM
A FA acquisition at CB is more likely IMO. We are okay at CB, but need some depth unless Hodge and Sapp can step up big. If we go 3-4, we need a certifiable stud at NT, and we'd need to add at least one Jason Taylor type DE. Getting BOTH of those players in the draft would be a real trick, and highly unlikely. I also think it would be really tough for us to sign more than two impact FAs--and one of those should a WR.I don't think we pursue CB at all. We have solid #1 and #2, and Sapp, Battle, and Hodge to round out the bench.

More likely is a safety. We are old at Safety and will be pretty thin by the time we trim the roster of guys like Woods and Bartee. If we can get a FS that can actually cover the field, Knight's weaknesses won't be as exposed. There are several 1st round quality safeties, at least one of which should be available at #20.

The other thing we need is a DT that can push the pocket. Our DEs get decent outside pressure, but QBs always have a pocket to step into. We needa guy that pushes that pocket in and forces the QB outside to our DEs and blitzing LBs. I don't think it has to be a big run stuffing DT because our LBs have been excellent at filling the gaps. It just needs to be a guy that can get upfield.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 09:47 AM
If you do a comparison of weights for the 4 lineman in a 4-3 and the 3 lineman in a 3-4 you will find that the 3 lineman average 10 lbs more than the 4 lineman. In addition the additional absolute weight lost on the line in a 3-4 (one less man even if they individually weigh more) is made up by having larger LB usually. The LB is a 3-4 tend to weigh 5 to 10 lbs more than LB in 4-3. The LB are larger in part so that they can take on Off lineman in both run and especially in pass rushing. The disguised notion of where the 4th pass rusher is coming from.


This is all exactly correct.

redhed
01-20-2006, 09:47 AM
The linebackers don't need to have the speed in the 3-4 that they do in the 4-3, but they need to be bigger, cuz they're often taking on guards head to head.

I want Monty back, you bastiges! ;)
Regarding speed, our LBs would seem to be better suited for the 4-3.
Maybe Bell heals and Kawika decides he'd rather tackle than hug an OL.
Sorry, Kawika yer a good one.

John Matrix
01-20-2006, 09:50 AM
I don't think we pursue CB at all. We have solid #1 and #2, and Sapp, Battle, and Hodge to round out the bench.

More likely is a safety. We are old at Safety and will be pretty thin by the time we trim the roster of guys like Woods and Bartee. If we can get a FS that can actually cover the field, Knight's weaknesses won't be as exposed. There are several 1st round quality safeties, at least one of which should be available at #20.

The other thing we need is a DT that can push the pocket. Our DEs get decent outside pressure, but QBs always have a pocket to step into. We needa guy that pushes that pocket in and forces the QB outside to our DEs and blitzing LBs. I don't think it has to be a big run stuffing DT because our LBs have been excellent at filling the gaps. It just needs to be a guy that can get upfield.


I completely agree with this assessment. It will be interesting to see if a guy like Huff will fall to #20...IMO it wouldn't be surprising. Think of all the mid-round reaches that teams tend to make on workout warriors instead of solid football players. I think that if we can't get an elite safety at #20 we would be better served dropping down 5 spots and picking up an extra 3rd rounder and getting one of the pass-rushing DTs in this class, then hoping for a safety in round 2.

htismaqe
01-20-2006, 09:50 AM
No, he won't.

Herm is a 4-3 coach, always has been.

picasso
01-20-2006, 09:51 AM
Like JoPo says, it's the return of "boring" football.
Bring on the D!! :drool:

JoPo is an idiot for saying that. Just because Saunders is gone, Green one of the best QBs in the league suddenly forgets how to pass the ball?
And I suppose Eddie, Gonzo, Larry and Parker forget how to catch the ball? JoPo is a moron.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 09:53 AM
No, he won't.

Herm is a 4-3 coach, always has been.


And, ultimately, this is all that matters. Same for Gun.

Coaches take their systems with them, they don't usually change to adapt to their personnel unless it's really clear that their personnel can't run their preferred system.

KC has been 4-3 for years, and I doubt they think they have the wrong personnel for it so they're forced into a 3-4.

jspchief
01-20-2006, 09:55 AM
KC has been 4-3 for years, and I doubt they think they have the wrong personnel for it so they're forced into a 3-4.We're a hell of a lot closer to having the personnel for a 4-3 than a 3-4, that's for sure.

tiptap
01-20-2006, 09:57 AM
No 3-4 on 1st and 2nd downs. But I see a big amount of substituting all the time at LB. Occassionally against say Steelers we will see 4-4. On third down we will see 3-4 or Falcon though technically we need another presence on the line besides Allen to see this work well against passing teams.

Cover 2 will not be favored as much as you all think. The big nemesis of cover 2 is a good TE. And guess what, there are plenty of good TEs in the AFC west and in the teams we play next year. So expect instead to see one of our fast LB assigned to man cover the TE with help over the top. And hoping a better pass rush to keep the TE from having time to get down field.

Lurch
01-20-2006, 09:57 AM
I don't think we pursue CB at all. We have solid #1 and #2, and Sapp, Battle, and Hodge to round out the bench.

More likely is a safety. We are old at Safety and will be pretty thin by the time we trim the roster of guys like Woods and Bartee. If we can get a FS that can actually cover the field, Knight's weaknesses won't be as exposed. There are several 1st round quality safeties, at least one of which should be available at #20.

The other thing we need is a DT that can push the pocket. Our DEs get decent outside pressure, but QBs always have a pocket to step into. We needa guy that pushes that pocket in and forces the QB outside to our DEs and blitzing LBs. I don't think it has to be a big run stuffing DT because our LBs have been excellent at filling the gaps. It just needs to be a guy that can get upfield.

I concur with your ideas about saftey, but would still feel better if we shored up CB too. The devil will be adding a DT, DE, Saftey, and CB the same year, in addition to adding a WR. If we end up with 3 of the 4, either through the draft or FA.....and we go with what we have at CB, I could live with that.

Rausch
01-20-2006, 10:00 AM
I'm not going to say we've got the players right now to justify a switch to the 3-4 but I can't think of a scheme we are less prepared for than a cover 2.

Do we have speedy and disciplined safeties that can stay with speedy WR's deep?

Do we have anything that even closely resembles what many in the NFL call "a pass rush" with only the front four?

I'm not saying that keeping Gun was the wrong idea but if you're going to bring the Cover2 to KC I don't know why....oh....say hiring a DC who's had success running it before could be a bad idea.

jspchief
01-20-2006, 10:01 AM
I concur with your ideas about saftey, but would still feel better if we shored up CB too. The devil will be adding a DT, DE, Saftey, and CB the same year, in addition to adding a WR. If we end up with 3 of the 4, either through the draft or FA.....and we go with what we have at CB, I could live with that.I think you're going to be disappointed this off-season. I don't think we'll be active in FA at all. Besides the fact that this is the down year in the two year cycle that Carl has always used, I also think the lack of CBA will make Carl shy to spend.

We'll get a few second and third tier FAs, maybe re-sign Carlos Hall. That's it IMO. There won't be any John Abrahams or Reggie Waynes.

John Matrix
01-20-2006, 10:03 AM
We don't know that we're going to exclusively run a Cover 2 system...by Herm keeping Gun it shows that we're probably going to stay with Gun's system, provided that the D continues to improve and given the personnel that we currently have. If we pick up a talented young safety in the draft and a DT with an ability to rush the passer, then we might be able to run the Cover 2 in certain situations. It would give our defense a certain unpredictability without the risk/reward of blitz-crazy schemes.

Rausch
01-20-2006, 10:05 AM
I think you're going to be disappointed this off-season. I don't think we'll be active in FA at all. Besides the fact that this is the down year in the two year cycle that Carl has always used, I also think the lack of CBA will make Carl shy to spend.

We'll get a few second and third tier FAs, maybe re-sign Carlos Hall. That's it IMO. There won't be any John Abrahams or Reggie Waynes.

We don't have the talent now to make Gun's defense effective, I don't know why we'd have any reason to suspect we'd do well switching to a scheme he doesn't have a ton of experience with while not adding talent to better play it.

bringbackmarty
01-20-2006, 10:05 AM
And, ultimately, this is all that matters. Same for Gun.

Coaches take their systems with them, they don't usually change to adapt to their personnel unless it's really clear that their personnel can't run their preferred system.

KC has been 4-3 for years, and I doubt they think they have the wrong personnel for it so they're forced into a 3-4.

right on.
I think that realistically, our defense is not going to change too much from last year in terms of philosophy. I think you'll see herm add some cover 2. If we release our slow assed safeties, then we are really going to see some cover2.

Rausch
01-20-2006, 10:07 AM
We don't know that we're going to exclusively run a Cover 2 system...by Herm keeping Gun it shows that we're probably going to stay with Gun's system, provided that the D continues to improve and given the personnel that we currently have. If we pick up a talented young safety in the draft and a DT with an ability to rush the passer, then we might be able to run the Cover 2 in certain situations. It would give our defense a certain unpredictability without the risk/reward of blitz-crazy schemes.

I don't have a problem using the C2 like we used the 3-4 this year. Just every so often to confuse an offense and try and make something happen, not a base defense...

Lurch
01-20-2006, 10:08 AM
I think you're going to be disappointed this off-season. I don't think we'll be active in FA at all. Besides the fact that this is the down year in the two year cycle that Carl has always used, I also think the lack of CBA will make Carl shy to spend.

We'll get a few second and third tier FAs, maybe re-sign Carlos Hall. That's it IMO. There won't be any John Abrahams or Reggie Waynes.

I sure hope you are wrong, but I understand what you are saying. If that is the way things go, next year will be another 8-8 or 9-7 venture IMHO.