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Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:08 AM
So this has become a bit of a debate over at Patriots Planet, and unfortunately, no one seems able to find a complete set of NFL rules online anywhere. So here are a few questions, in each case the response is "TD" or "not a TD".

1. LJ goes off tackle but gets hit from behind just as he's about to score the TD. His knee hits the ground 1 foot out of bounds, his upper body, including his arm holding the ball, crashes down inside the goal line. NOTE: the ball did NOT break the "plane of the goal" before his knee was down.

I THINK: No TD, ball spotted at the 1 foot line.


2. LT runs a sweep to the left. As he nears the goal line, he is about to get hammered by a linebacker. He is about to get shoved out of bounds, but in an amazing display of strength and dexterity, he jumps. At this point, he has not touched anything that is out of bounds. As his body starts to come crashing to earth, and still before anything has touched anything out of bounds, he strikes out with his right foot, and hits the Pylon. A second later, his entire body crashes to the ground out of bounds. Note that the ball never broke the plane of the goal.

I THINK: Touchdown. Player broke plane of goal with body while in possession of the ball and before being out of bounds.

2A. Is this answer changed any if the ball lands out of bounds behind the pylon, as opposed to landing out of bounds in front of the pylon? In other words, does the "plane of the goal" extend beyond the out-of-bounds area, or does it just go straight up into the sky?

3. Tom Brady on a QB keeper at the 1 foot line. His head/helmet break the plane of the goal, but the ball, tucked safely behind both arms, never breaks the plane of the goal. He is then shoved back and down.

I THINK: I don't know. I want to say no touchdown, as I've never seen it ruled this way before, but it doesn't square with example 2 above.

Note: In all cases, I don't want possession to be an issue, so I'm intentionally avoiding what constitutes a catch and all the issues that can come up as a result of that.

ptlyon
01-20-2006, 11:12 AM
So this has become a bit of a debate over at Patriots Planet, and unfortunately, no one seems able to find a complete set of NFL rules online anywhere. So here are a few questions, in each case the response is "TD" or "not a TD".

1. LJ goes off tackle but gets hit from behind just as he's about to score the TD. His knee hits the ground 1 foot out of bounds, his upper body, including his arm holding the ball, crashes down inside the goal line. NOTE: the ball did NOT break the "plane of the goal" before his knee was down.

I THINK: No TD, ball spotted at the 1 foot line.

Correct

2. LT runs a sweep to the left. As he nears the goal line, he is about to get hammered by a linebacker. He is about to get shoved out of bounds, but in an amazing display of strength and dexterity, he jumps. At this point, he has not touched anything that is out of bounds. As his body starts to come crashing to earth, and still before anything has touched anything out of bounds, he strikes out with his right foot, and hits the Pylon. A second later, his entire body crashes to the ground out of bounds. Note that the ball never broke the plane of the goal.

I THINK: Touchdown. Player broke plane of goal with body while in possession of the ball and before being out of bounds.

No, the ball has to break the plane of the goal line.

2A. Is this answer changed any if the ball lands out of bounds behind the pylon, as opposed to landing out of bounds in front of the pylon? In other words, does the "plane of the goal" extend beyond the out-of-bounds area, or does it just go straight up into the sky?

Sky

3. Tom Brady on a QB keeper at the 1 foot line. His head/helmet break the plane of the goal, but the ball, tucked safely behind both arms, never breaks the plane of the goal. He is then shoved back and down.

I THINK: I don't know. I want to say no touchdown, as I've never seen it ruled this way before, but it doesn't square with example 2 above.

No touchdown. Ball/plane theory strikes again.

Note: In all cases, I don't want possession to be an issue, so I'm intentionally avoiding what constitutes a catch and all the issues that can come up as a result of that.

John Matrix
01-20-2006, 11:13 AM
If the ball does not break the plane of the goal line before the player is down by contact or out of bounds then it isn't a TD...none of these are touchdowns. Where the player's bodies are is immaterial, the only thing that matters is where the ball is when the player officially steps out of bounds or is ruled DBC.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:17 AM
If the ball does not break the plane of the goal line before the player is down by contact or out of bounds then it isn't a TD...none of these are touchdowns. Where the player's bodies are is immaterial, the only thing that matters is where the ball is when the player officially steps out of bounds or is ruled DBC.


For what it's worth, part of this discussion is triggered by a Bill Belichick comment on the Patriots DVD on their playoff run of a year or two ago. In one of the Indy/Pats games, Dillon flies over the corner of the end zone (he was shoved). Half his body is in-bounds, the other half out. Teh ball is CLEARLY out of bounds (i.e outside the pylon/end zone area).

The refs called no TD, ball at the 1 foot line or whatever.

Belichick SPECIFICALLY says that it's a bad call by the refs. He didn't red flag it because it wasn't worth it, we scored on the next play or whatever anyway, but that's what he says on the DVD. And if that guy doesn't know the rules, I don't know who does...

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:19 AM
This suggests that ptylon and John Matrix are correct, of course:

"31. Touchdown: When any part of the ball, legally in possession of a player inbounds, breaks the plane of the opponent’s goal line, provided it is not a touchback."

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/definitions

ptlyon
01-20-2006, 11:20 AM
He didn't red flag it because it wasn't worth it, we scored on the next play or whatever anyway, but that's what he says on the DVD.

Heck no he didn't flag it, he was wrong.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:21 AM
Heck no he didn't flag it, he was wrong.


I'm just telling you what he said in the DVD.

Based on the digest version of the rules, looks like he was wrong or confused for whatever reason.

jspchief
01-20-2006, 11:23 AM
The goaline extends forever. The pylon does not indicate the end of it.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:25 AM
Former NFL Referee Jerry Markbreight:

Q: I've grown tired of announcers saying that players need to dive into the end zone within the pylons, as well as players unnecessarily positioning the ball inside the pylon as they dive for the end zone. As I understand it, because the goal line stretches indefinitely outside the field of play, the pylon is essentially meaningless for judging a touchdown. Can you clarify this rule for me? And if the pylons serve no purpose, why are they there? -- Dan K., Boston

A: You are correct. The goal line stretches around the world outside at the field of play. The pylon's purpose is to signify that the ball or player is out-of-bounds in the end zone. If a player going in for a score hits the pylon with the ball extended over the plane of the goal line, he is out-of-bounds in the end zone, and a touchdown is awarded. But if a player is coming out of his own end zone and he hits the pylon with the ball in his possession, he is out-of-bounds in his end zone and a safety is awarded to the defensive team. So in that sense, the pylons are very important.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/askthereferee/cs-051005askjerrymarkbreit,1,523252.story?coll=cs-bears-asktheref-headlines

Skip Towne
01-20-2006, 11:26 AM
I saw a flaw in #1. NOBODY can catch LJ from behind.

John Matrix
01-20-2006, 11:28 AM
Yeah, the goal line extends forever. I answered the question assuming that this was understood (thereby meaning that the ball didn't cross the inifinite goal line whether in bounds or out of bounds). Sorry for the mixup.

philfree
01-20-2006, 11:28 AM
I remember a commentator saying that they have changed a rule inregards to the plane of the goal line and it does now extend out side the endzone. Meaning that if the player hasn't toucjhed down ourt of bounds and the ball crosses the plane outside the pylon it's a TD. I was kinda of shocked when I heard it but that's what he said. He said the rules change has gone pretty unmentioned.

PhilFree:arrow:

cdcox
01-20-2006, 11:28 AM
The plane of the endzone extends to infinity.

So if a player leaves the inbound area by leaping at the 2 yrd line and lands with both feet clearly out of bounds, but beyond the goalline extended to infinity, it is a touchdown as long as the ball breaks the plane of the endzone before he lands out of bounds.

John Matrix
01-20-2006, 11:28 AM
Wasn't Markbright the cocks*cker who officiated the 97 playoff game? For some reason I think this mo'f*cker lives in Denver, but that could just be heresay.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:30 AM
Okay, here's why Belichick was right, and as JSPChief indicated, the goal line goes around the world, and the pylon isn't the end of it. It's just an out-of-bounds marker:

Again, former referee Markbreight:

Q: At the end of the OSU-Texas game on fourth down, the Texas runner tried to run the ball into the end zone to ice the game. He was not given the touchdown and the announcers questioned whether the ball was outside the pylon. Does the goal line extend "all the way around the world" in the pro game only? If the ball is outside the pylon but the runner has not yet touched the out-of-bounds area, is it not a touchdown? -- Peter Vedder, Wausau, Wisc.

A: Yes, the goal line extended does go "all the way around the world" in all organized football leagues: grade school, high school, college and professional. If the runner touches the pylon with his body, or dives over it, the ball may be over the side line and a touchdown will be awarded because the goal line extends beyond the side line.

cdcox
01-20-2006, 11:31 AM
The players haven't really started exploiting this rule yet. Once they do, TD's at the goal line will become a little easier. Then defences will start counteracting it, and get flagged for late hits out of bounds. I don't think the NFL has completely thought through the implications of this yet.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:32 AM
The plane of the endzone extends to infinity.

So if a player leaves the inbound area by leaping at the 2 yrd line and lands with both feet clearly out of bounds, but beyond the goalline extended to infinity, it is a touchdown as long as the ball breaks the plane of the endzone before he lands out of bounds.

Yes, as long as he either touches or dives over the pylon, that's right. Where the ball is doesn't matter, apparently.

So a guy could jump over the corner of the end zone, and either touch the pylon or dive over it, and even if the BALL ITSELF does not cross the palne of the goal within the pylons, it doesn't matter because, again as JSPChief said, the plane extends around the world.

ptlyon
01-20-2006, 11:33 AM
The plane of the endzone extends to infinity.

So if a player leaves the inbound area by leaping at the 2 yrd line and lands with both feet clearly out of bounds, but beyond the goalline extended to infinity, it is a touchdown as long as the ball breaks the plane of the endzone before he lands out of bounds.

Well that is just plain stupid if it is true. Then what is the point of being in bounds?

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:33 AM
The players haven't really started exploiting this rule yet. Once they do, TD's at the goal line will become a little easier. Then defenses will start counteracting it, and get flagged for late hits out of bounds. I don't think the NFL has completely thought through the implications of this yet.


err...the rule is as old as dirt. It's hard to exploit because you're talking about diving over the very corner of the end zone.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:34 AM
Well that is just plain stupid if it is true. Then what is the point of being in bounds?

Must be in bounds and either touch or dive over a pylon. Not easily done.

ptlyon
01-20-2006, 11:35 AM
Must be in bounds and either touch or dive over a pylon. Not easily done.

Sure it is.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:39 AM
Sure it is.

Sorry, not easily DESIGNED on a game plan.

I mean, you're at the 2 yard line and you do a sweep or off-tackle play. If you can walk into the end zone, you do. If you get knocked backwards or out of bounds, then that's what happens.

How often are you in a situation where you can't make the end zone in ANY OTHER WAY, but you can jump either over the pylon or hit it as you're flying out of bounds? It's not like you can design something for that. Just know what the rule is and do it if appropriate.

Most TDs don't exactly happen that way...

ptlyon
01-20-2006, 11:41 AM
Most TDs don't exactly happen that way...

I understand that but I think the ball should cross the plane in bounds.

JMO.

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2006, 11:42 AM
"So this has become a bit of a debate over at Patriots Planet, and unfortunately, no one seems able to find a complete set of NFL rules online anywhere. So here are a few questions, in each case the response is "TD" or "not a TD".

1. LJ goes off tackle but gets hit from behind just as he's about to score the TD. His knee hits the ground 1 foot out of bounds, his upper body, including his arm holding the ball, crashes down inside the goal line. NOTE: the ball did NOT break the "plane of the goal" before his knee was down.

I THINK: No TD, ball spotted at the 1 foot line."

It's where the ball is when his foot goes out of bounds.

patteeu
01-20-2006, 11:43 AM
So this has become a bit of a debate over at Patriots Planet, and unfortunately, no one seems able to find a complete set of NFL rules online anywhere. So here are a few questions, in each case the response is "TD" or "not a TD".

1. LJ goes off tackle but gets hit from behind just as he's about to score the TD. His knee hits the ground 1 foot out of bounds, his upper body, including his arm holding the ball, crashes down inside the goal line. NOTE: the ball did NOT break the "plane of the goal" before his knee was down.

I THINK: No TD, ball spotted at the 1 foot line.

No TD*, not enough information to spot the ball. The ball should be spotted at the point of the ball's position when the knee touches the ground out of bounds.

*Note: The "plane of the goal" is an infinite plane that extends up from the goal line AND left and right BEYOND the sidelines so if the ball had broken that plane before the knee touched ground, out of bounds, it would be a TD.


2. LT runs a sweep to the left. As he nears the goal line, he is about to get hammered by a linebacker. He is about to get shoved out of bounds, but in an amazing display of strength and dexterity, he jumps. At this point, he has not touched anything that is out of bounds. As his body starts to come crashing to earth, and still before anything has touched anything out of bounds, he strikes out with his right foot, and hits the Pylon. A second later, his entire body crashes to the ground out of bounds. Note that the ball never broke the plane of the goal.

I THINK: Touchdown. Player broke plane of goal with body while in possession of the ball and before being out of bounds.

No TD if the ball never crosses the plane of the goal. The foot touching the pylon doesn't constitute a TD although because the pylon is "in bounds" it doesn't end the play either. The play ends when his body touches the ground. The ball should be spotted based on it's location at the moment when the body touches out of bounds.

2A. Is this answer changed any if the ball lands out of bounds behind the pylon, as opposed to landing out of bounds in front of the pylon? In other words, does the "plane of the goal" extend beyond the out-of-bounds area, or does it just go straight up into the sky?

Yes, the plane extends to infinity in all directions. Breaking the plane (with the ball) before touching the ground out of bounds is a TD even if the ball was never in the airspace of the endzone.

3. Tom Brady on a QB keeper at the 1 foot line. His head/helmet break the plane of the goal, but the ball, tucked safely behind both arms, never breaks the plane of the goal. He is then shoved back and down.

I THINK: I don't know. I want to say no touchdown, as I've never seen it ruled this way before, but it doesn't square with example 2 above.

No TD. The ball has to cross the plane of the goal line. Ball is spotted at the point of forward progress (of the ball).

cdcox
01-20-2006, 11:44 AM
Yes, as long as he either touches or dives over the pylon, that's right. Where the ball is doesn't matter, apparently.

So a guy could jump over the corner of the end zone, and either touch the pylon or dive over it, and even if the BALL ITSELF does not cross the palne of the goal within the pylons, it doesn't matter because, again as JSPChief said, the plane extends around the world.

I has nothing to do with the pylon. The diagram below illustrates a touchdown.

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2006, 11:44 AM
"2. LT runs a sweep to the left. As he nears the goal line, he is about to get hammered by a linebacker. He is about to get shoved out of bounds, but in an amazing display of strength and dexterity, he jumps. At this point, he has not touched anything that is out of bounds. As his body starts to come crashing to earth, and still before anything has touched anything out of bounds, he strikes out with his right foot, and hits the Pylon. A second later, his entire body crashes to the ground out of bounds. Note that the ball never broke the plane of the goal."

No touchdown...the ball did not break the plane of the goal line. And the pylon is in the endzone.

Frosty
01-20-2006, 11:44 AM
Yes, as long as he either touches or dives over the pylon, that's right. Where the ball is doesn't matter, apparently.

So a guy could jump over the corner of the end zone, and either touch the pylon or dive over it, and even if the BALL ITSELF does not cross the palne of the goal within the pylons, it doesn't matter because, again as JSPChief said, the plane extends around the world.

LJ had a touchdown exactly like that in the second Denver game. His body, with the ball, was out of bounds (he didn't touch the ground), but his foot hit the pylon, giving him a touchdown, even though his foot was the only part of him inbounds.

ptlyon
01-20-2006, 11:45 AM
I has nothing to do with the pylon. The diagram below illustrates a touchdown.

The blue triangle is where my house is.

patteeu
01-20-2006, 11:46 AM
For what it's worth, part of this discussion is triggered by a Bill Belichick comment on the Patriots DVD on their playoff run of a year or two ago. In one of the Indy/Pats games, Dillon flies over the corner of the end zone (he was shoved). Half his body is in-bounds, the other half out. Teh ball is CLEARLY out of bounds (i.e outside the pylon/end zone area).

The refs called no TD, ball at the 1 foot line or whatever.

Belichick SPECIFICALLY says that it's a bad call by the refs. He didn't red flag it because it wasn't worth it, we scored on the next play or whatever anyway, but that's what he says on the DVD. And if that guy doesn't know the rules, I don't know who does...

Belichick is right.

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2006, 11:46 AM
"2A. Is this answer changed any if the ball lands out of bounds behind the pylon, as opposed to landing out of bounds in front of the pylon? In other words, does the "plane of the goal" extend beyond the out-of-bounds area, or does it just go straight up into the sky?"

The goaline extends around the Earth...if the ball breaks that plane before any body part touches the ground OOB...it's a touchdown.

cdcox
01-20-2006, 11:47 AM
The blue triangle is where my house is.

You live in a pylon? Awesome.

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2006, 11:48 AM
"3. Tom Brady on a QB keeper at the 1 foot line. His head/helmet break the plane of the goal, but the ball, tucked safely behind both arms, never breaks the plane of the goal. He is then shoved back and down."

No touchdown unless you're the Jets in the Meadowlands. Otherwise the ball is spotted at forward progress and no touch down.

Rausch
01-20-2006, 11:49 AM
Call (212) 450-2000 and ask for the NFL rules guy.

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2006, 11:51 AM
In college ball where most these guys are trained...the goal line does not extend around the earth and is only between the pylons.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:51 AM
No touchdown...the ball did not break the plane of the goal line. And the pylon is in the endzone.

Not according to former NFL referee Jerry Markbreit (or, apparently, Bill Belichick).

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:52 AM
In college ball where most these guys are trained...the goal line does not extend around the earth and is only between the pylons.


Again, not according to former NFL referee Jerry Markbreit (see my prior post). he says it's around the world at all levels of football.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:53 AM
I note that Patteeu's post matches exactly with Markbreit's. So far, he's the only one that seems to be 100% on board here.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:54 AM
Belichick is right.


Well, of course. OTOH, I should note that this is kind of like you telling Jerry Falwell that Jesus didn't make too many mistakes... :D

Hydrae
01-20-2006, 11:55 AM
No TD if the ball never crosses the plane of the goal. The foot touching the pylon doesn't constitute a TD although because the pylon is "in bounds" it doesn't end the play either. The play ends when his body touches the ground. The ball should be spotted based on it's location at the moment when the body touches out of bounds.

Actually, per Jerry Markbreight, the pylon is OUT of bounds itself:

A: You are correct. The goal line stretches around the world outside at the field of play. The pylon's purpose is to signify that the ball or player is out-of-bounds in the end zone. If a player going in for a score hits the pylon with the ball extended over the plane of the goal line, he is out-of-bounds in the end zone, and a touchdown is awarded. But if a player is coming out of his own end zone and he hits the pylon with the ball in his possession, he is out-of-bounds in his end zone and a safety is awarded to the defensive team. So in that sense, the pylons are very important.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:55 AM
"3. Tom Brady on a QB keeper at the 1 foot line. His head/helmet break the plane of the goal, but the ball, tucked safely behind both arms, never breaks the plane of the goal. He is then shoved back and down."

No touchdown unless you're the Jets in the Meadowlands. Otherwise the ball is spotted at forward progress and no touch down.


Good memory on that Testaverde call. Rep.

patteeu
01-20-2006, 11:56 AM
err...the rule is as old as dirt. It's hard to exploit because you're talking about diving over the very corner of the end zone.

One way to exploit it that I don't see anyone taking advantage of is to dive out of bounds at the corner of the field so that your trajectory will carry your airborne body toward the goalline plane while extending the football in front of you superman-style. It's very risky to do this in the field of play because of the danger of a fumble, but if you do this while flying out of bounds and the ball gets knocked out, it will almost certainly be out of bounds before a defender could gain possession. Given the athletic ability of some of these guys, a ball carrier could conceivably launch himself out-of-bounds from beyond the 5 yard line and still extend the ball to the goalline plane before hitting the ground.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 11:57 AM
Actually, per Jerry Markbreight, the pylon is OUT of bounds itself:

Yes, but out of bounds IN THE END ZONE, which means that it's a TD under some circumstances, or a safety or touchback or whatever in others.

patteeu
01-20-2006, 11:58 AM
Must be in bounds and either touch or dive over a pylon. Not easily done.

I don't think that's required by the rules.

Shag
01-20-2006, 11:58 AM
I has nothing to do with the pylon. The diagram below illustrates a touchdown.

I'm not sure that it does. Yes, the goal line extends forever, but my understanding of the rule is that SOME part of the players body (or the ball) must cross the goal line inside the pylon (or hit the pylon), AND the ball has to cross the plane (extended forever).

I don't believe you can just take a flying leap at the 3, and land in the camera crew 5 yards OOB...

Hydrae
01-20-2006, 12:00 PM
Yes, but out of bounds IN THE END ZONE, which means that it's a TD under some circumstances, or a safety or touchback or whatever in others.

But if (and it would be hard to do) a player were to hit to pylon without breaking the plane with the ball, end of the play. The entire key is breaking the plane.

And I agree with GC, the rule is different in college, the plane does not extend beyond the pylons. That is probably why you see people trying to so hard to keep the ball inside the pylons, it is what they learned at a younger age.

Luzap
01-20-2006, 12:00 PM
Question:

In the Denver playoff game when Champ Baily returned the interception and fumbled the ball on the one yard line, why was it so important to know if the balls trajectory was inside the pylon or outside?

Luz
curious minds want to know???...

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 12:00 PM
One way to exploit it that I don't see anyone taking advantage of is to dive out of bounds at the corner of the field so that your trajectory will carry your airborne body toward the goalline plane while extending the football in front of you superman-style. It's very risky to do this in the field of play because of the danger of a fumble, but if you do this while flying out of bounds and the ball gets knocked out, it will almost certainly be out of bounds before a defender could gain possession. Given the athletic ability of some of these guys, a ball carrier could conceivably launch himself out-of-bounds from beyond the 5 yard line and still extend the ball to the goalline plane before hitting the ground.


I have all the respect in the world for your intelligence, but think about what you're saying. It makes no sense at all.

You're talking about designing an off-tackle run of some kind that's designed to have your guy make some kind of broad jump or whatever into the end zone. It's absurd. If there's a hole, you RUN into it. If there's no hole, you're going to get squeezed out of bounds.

5 yards out is 25 feet. Unless you have a freaking trampoline, I have no idea how a running back, usually less than 6 feet tall, is expected to jump 25 yards forwards over the heads or between the monsters that are modern NFL defensive linemen and linebackers.

Also, the play itself has alot of sideways momentum. Once you leave your feet you're destined to get knocked more sideways, either down or out of bounds.

It's just not realistic.

Frosty
01-20-2006, 12:01 PM
One way to exploit it that I don't see anyone taking advantage of is to dive out of bounds at the corner of the field so that your trajectory will carry your airborne body toward the goalline plane while extending the football in front of you superman-style. It's very risky to do this in the field of play because of the danger of a fumble, but if you do this while flying out of bounds and the ball gets knocked out, it will almost certainly be out of bounds before a defender could gain possession. Given the athletic ability of some of these guys, a ball carrier could conceivably launch himself out-of-bounds from beyond the 5 yard line and still extend the ball to the goalline plane before hitting the ground.

After the LJ TD I mentioned earlier, both the announcers and the ref (after it was reviewed), said that some some part of the ball carrier's body must be between the pylons. The ball doesn't have to be, as long as it breaks the plane.

cdcox
01-20-2006, 12:01 PM
Amnorix:

Read Markbreight again carefully. He says nothing about going over the pylon. He only mentions hitting it. All he is saying is that the pylon is part of the sideline, you touch it and you are out of bounds.... and in the endzone.

If the goal line plane truely extends to infinity, then my diagram illustrates a touchdown. I'm pretty sure I've seen a few plays of Priests called that way.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 12:01 PM
Question:

In the Denver playoff game when Champ Baily returned the interception and fumbled the ball on the one yard line, why was it so important to know if the balls trajectory was inside the pylon or outside?

Luz
curious minds want to know???...


If the ball went out of boudns before entering the end zone (whcih is what was ruled) then it's Denver's ball at the X yard line (wherever it went out of bounds, in this case, the one).

If it's a fumble out of the end zone, which it wasn't, then it's a fumble, touchback, ball awarded to the Patriots at the 20 yard line. Just a small difference there...

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 12:05 PM
Amnorix:

Read Markbreight again carefully. He says nothing about going over the pylon. He only mentions hitting it. All he is saying is that the pylon is part of the sideline, you touch it and you are out of bounds.... and in the endzone.

If the goal line plane truely extends to infinity, then my diagram illustrates a touchdown. I'm pretty sure I've seen a few plays of Priests called that way.

Here's his quote again:

Yes, the goal line extended does go "all the way around the world" in all organized football leagues: grade school, high school, college and professional. If the runner touches the pylon with his body, or dives over it, the ball may be over the side line and a touchdown will be awarded because the goal line extends beyond the side line.

I think everyone agrees with your diagram, although it doesn't show where the ball is. The point here is that even if the ball doesn't break the plane of the goal within the pylons, it's still a TD.

cdcox
01-20-2006, 12:05 PM
I have all the respect in the world for your intelligence, but think about what you're saying. It makes no sense at all.

You're talking about designing an off-tackle run of some kind that's designed to have your guy make some kind of broad jump or whatever into the end zone. It's absurd. If there's a hole, you RUN into it. If there's no hole, you're going to get squeezed out of bounds.

5 yards out is 25 feet. Unless you have a freaking trampoline, I have no idea how a running back, usually less than 6 feet tall, is expected to jump 25 yards forwards over the heads or between the monsters that are modern NFL defensive linemen and linebackers.

Also, the play itself has alot of sideways momentum. Once you leave your feet you're destined to get knocked more sideways, either down or out of bounds.

It's just not realistic.

Of course you don't design a play that way. That would be stupid.

But when the RB approach the side line in the NFL, they are trained to stay inside of it. If a guy had thought about it long and hard, and practiced it on the field, he could throw his body from the 2 yrd line and score. Instead, almost every back trys to stay in bounds and get inside the pylon. It's just that they are so trained to think of the sideline in a certain way that they do not exploit the whole field.

cdcox
01-20-2006, 12:08 PM
Here's his quote again:

Yes, the goal line extended does go "all the way around the world" in all organized football leagues: grade school, high school, college and professional. If the runner touches the pylon with his body, or dives over it, the ball may be over the side line and a touchdown will be awarded because the goal line extends beyond the side line.

I think everyone agrees with your diagram, although it doesn't show where the ball is. The point here is that even if the ball doesn't break the plane of the goal within the pylons, it's still a TD.

I think dive over it is just a manner of speaking. I've never seen a ref try to determine if part of someones body went over the pylon. The pylon is just part of the sideline.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 12:11 PM
I think dive over it is just a manner of speaking. I've never seen a ref try to determine if part of someones body went over the pylon. The pylon is just part of the sideline.


Maybe, but then the refs are just being lazy or stupid and not doing it right. Here's a cross-post from Patriots Planet:


In the Week 14 Saints Falcons game on Monday night....


http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20051212_NO@ATL


Vick went to his left and was ruled out at the one. The ball was in his left hand and clearly was outside the pylon, crossing the sideline at the 1 and eventually past the goal line before touching the ground. His right hand, empty, passed over the pylon, during his dive. Madden took great lengths to explain that the goal line extends beyond, SO LONG AS a part of the BODY catches the pylon. The ball can be outside, some part of the body cannot be. The replays were great in that they showed that the only thing catching the pylon was Vicks right arm. His body, his left arm and the ball were outside the pylon.

Madden said that if his right arm was a little further out (and outside the pylon), no touchdown.

patteeu
01-20-2006, 12:11 PM
I have all the respect in the world for your intelligence, but think about what you're saying. It makes no sense at all.

You're talking about designing an off-tackle run of some kind that's designed to have your guy make some kind of broad jump or whatever into the end zone. It's absurd. If there's a hole, you RUN into it. If there's no hole, you're going to get squeezed out of bounds.

5 yards out is 25 feet. Unless you have a freaking trampoline, I have no idea how a running back, usually less than 6 feet tall, is expected to jump 25 yards forwards over the heads or between the monsters that are modern NFL defensive linemen and linebackers.

Also, the play itself has alot of sideways momentum. Once you leave your feet you're destined to get knocked more sideways, either down or out of bounds.

It's just not realistic.

I agree with what your saying about how absurd it would be to design a play like this. I also agree that if the ball carrier tried to do something like this that he could easily be driven off-course by a hit from a heads-up defender.

But what I am saying is that a heads-up ball carrier could use this knowledge to his advantage in an ad hoc manner when he finds that all the convenient holes are filled and he is otherwise going to be run out of bounds if he tries to walk the tightrope along the sideline. Doing this from the 5 yard line would be far more difficult than doing it from the 2 yard line, but it isn't beyond the capability of these athletes. A 15 foot leap (5 yards = 15 feet, as I'm sure you know ;) ) is well within the capabilities of these guys, and unlike a long jump, these guys would be able to land short of the 15 foot mark as long as the ball, held out in front of their prone bodies, breaks the plane before the body hits the ground).


Having said that, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that there is some obscure rule that requires the body to fly over the pylon as you and Shag (*edit* and Arc */edit) have suggested, I'm just not aware of that rule if that's the case.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 12:17 PM
I agree with what your saying about how absurd it would be to design a play like this. I also agree that if the ball carrier tried to do something like this that he could easily be driven off-course by a hit from a heads-up defender.

But what I am saying is that a heads-up ball carrier could use this knowledge to his advantage in an ad hoc manner when he finds that all the convenient holes are filled and he is otherwise going to be run out of bounds if he tries to walk the tightrope along the sideline. Doing this from the 5 yard line would be far more difficult than doing it from the 2 yard line, but it isn't beyond the capability of these athletes. A 15 foot leap (5 yards = 15 feet, as I'm sure you know ;) ) is well within the capabilities of these guys, and unlike a long jump, these guys would be able to land short of the 15 foot mark as long as the ball, held out in front of their prone bodies, breaks the plane before the body hits the ground).


Having said that, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that there is some obscure rule that requires the body to fly over the pylon as you and Shag (*edit* and Arc */edit) have suggested, I'm just not aware of that rule if that's the case.


Duh. 5x3=15. :banghead:

I agree that knowing the rules so you can use it ad hoc is definitely smart. Just doesn't seem likely to come up that often.

cdcox
01-20-2006, 12:17 PM
Maybe, but then the refs are just being lazy or stupid and not doing it right. Here's a cross-post from Patriots Planet:


In the Week 14 Saints Falcons game on Monday night....


http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20051212_NO@ATL


Vick went to his left and was ruled out at the one. The ball was in his left hand and clearly was outside the pylon, crossing the sideline at the 1 and eventually past the goal line before touching the ground. His right hand, empty, passed over the pylon, during his dive. Madden took great lengths to explain that the goal line extends beyond, SO LONG AS a part of the BODY catches the pylon. The ball can be outside, some part of the body cannot be. The replays were great in that they showed that the only thing catching the pylon was Vicks right arm. His body, his left arm and the ball were outside the pylon.

Madden said that if his right arm was a little further out (and outside the pylon), no touchdown.

If that is the actual rule, then they should quit saying that the goal line extends to infinity, because it is misleading.

I agree that I wish they would put the real rule book on line so fans could know this stuff.

ct
01-20-2006, 12:26 PM
So this has become a bit of a debate over at Patriots Planet, and unfortunately, no one seems able to find a complete set of NFL rules online anywhere. So here are a few questions, in each case the response is "TD" or "not a TD".

1. LJ goes off tackle but gets hit from behind just as he's about to score the TD. His knee hits the ground 1 foot out of bounds, his upper body, including his arm holding the ball, crashes down inside the goal line. NOTE: the ball did NOT break the "plane of the goal" before his knee was down.

I THINK: No TD, ball spotted at the 1 foot line.
No TD, ball spoted where the ball was when his knee hit OOB.

2. LT runs a sweep to the left. As he nears the goal line, he is about to get hammered by a linebacker. He is about to get shoved out of bounds, but in an amazing display of strength and dexterity, he jumps. At this point, he has not touched anything that is out of bounds. As his body starts to come crashing to earth, and still before anything has touched anything out of bounds, he strikes out with his right foot, and hits the Pylon. A second later, his entire body crashes to the ground out of bounds. Note that the ball never broke the plane of the goal.

I THINK: Touchdown. Player broke plane of goal with body while in possession of the ball and before being out of bounds.
TD!! The rules are different for the goal line plane extended OOB. Any part of his body that does cross INSIDE the end zone plane before any part of his body touches OOB, is a TD.
2A. Is this answer changed any if the ball lands out of bounds behind the pylon, as opposed to landing out of bounds in front of the pylon? In other words, does the "plane of the goal" extend beyond the out-of-bounds area, or does it just go straight up into the sky?
Plane extends horizontally forever. If his foot hit the pylon, it's a TD. If his foot does NOT hit the pylon, and the ball touches OOB before the extended plane, NO TD.

3. Tom Brady on a QB keeper at the 1 foot line. His head/helmet break the plane of the goal, but the ball, tucked safely behind both arms, never breaks the plane of the goal. He is then shoved back and down.

I THINK: I don't know. I want to say no touchdown, as I've never seen it ruled this way before, but it doesn't square with example 2 above.
NO TD! Rules are different for the plane extension than in the field of play. In the field of play, the ball itself MUST cross into the plane.
Note: In all cases, I don't want possession to be an issue, so I'm intentionally avoiding what constitutes a catch and all the issues that can come up as a result of that.

ptlyon
01-20-2006, 12:46 PM
Well whatever the real answer is, thanks to Amnorix for posting a good football discussion thread! :thumb:

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2006, 01:00 PM
Again, not according to former NFL referee Jerry Markbreit (see my prior post). he says it's around the world at all levels of football.

He's incorrect.

Rain Man
01-20-2006, 01:11 PM
I agree with all of amnorix's statements in the original post.

In Situation 2A, I think the ball has to cross the goal line while in bounds. I don't think you can shove the ball past the goal line on the outside of the pylon.

cdcox
01-20-2006, 01:13 PM
I agree with all of amnorix's statements in the original post.

In Situation 2A, I think the ball has to cross the goal line while in bounds. I don't think you can shove the ball past the goal line on the outside of the pylon.

Based on the summation of posts on this thread, I think you can as long as some part of your body is inside the pylon.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 01:21 PM
Summary of what we've determined:

1. The "plane of the goal" is infinite in all directions -- past the pylons to the right and left, and up to the heavens.

2. The pylon is itself considered "out of bounds, but in the end zone". So if you had a kickoff into the end zone, and your returner caught it but brushed the pylon on the return, the genius just managed to score a safety for the other team. I'm pretty sure NONE of us knew THAT little factoid... Edit: or is that just a touchback? Cuz what happens if you catch it in the end zone but run out of bounds? I need to review Markbreit's statement again -- when the heck could there be a safety??

3. As long as ANY PART of your body touches or goes over the corner of the end zone (or pylon, whatever) while you are in possession of the ball, AND the ball itself lands "past" the goal line (albeit out of bounds) it's a touchdown, even if the BALL ITSELF never is in the "airspace" of the end zone.

4. The logic for #3, above, is that the ball has "broken the plane of the goal (which extends around the world" while the PLAYER was not out of bounds in the field of play. If he hits the pylon, he's out of bounds IN THE END ZONE, so it's still a TD under those circumstances.

Anyone disagree with the above??

cdcox
01-20-2006, 01:23 PM
Summary of what we've determined:

1. The "plane of the goal" is infinite in all directions -- past the pylons to the right and left, and up to the heavens.

2. The pylon is itself considered "out of bounds, but in the end zone". So if you had a kickoff into the end zone, and your returner caught it but brushed the pylon on the return, the genius just managed to score a safety for the other team. I'm pretty sure NONE of us knew THAT little factoid... Edit: or is that just a touchback? Cuz what happens if you catch it in the end zone but run out of bounds? I need to review Markbreit's statement again -- when the heck could there be a safety??

3. As long as ANY PART of your body touches or goes over the corner of the end zone (or pylon, whatever) while you are in possession of the ball, AND the ball itself lands "past" the goal line (albeit out of bounds) it's a touchdown, even if the BALL ITSELF never is in the "airspace" of the end zone.

4. The logic for #3, above, is that the ball has "broken the plane of the goal (which extends around the world" while the PLAYER was not out of bounds in the field of play. If he hits the pylon, he's out of bounds IN THE END ZONE, so it's still a TD under those circumstances.

Anyone disagree with the above??

I'm on board. That's all that matters.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 01:23 PM
But if a player is coming out of his own end zone and he hits the pylon with the ball in his possession, he is out-of-bounds in his end zone and a safety is awarded to the defensive team.

I guess this would be on a running play or something, not on a kickoff return...

patteeu
01-20-2006, 01:43 PM
Summary of what we've determined:

1. The "plane of the goal" is infinite in all directions -- past the pylons to the right and left, and up to the heavens.

2. The pylon is itself considered "out of bounds, but in the end zone". So if you had a kickoff into the end zone, and your returner caught it but brushed the pylon on the return, the genius just managed to score a safety for the other team. I'm pretty sure NONE of us knew THAT little factoid... Edit: or is that just a touchback? Cuz what happens if you catch it in the end zone but run out of bounds? I need to review Markbreit's statement again -- when the heck could there be a safety??

3. As long as ANY PART of your body touches or goes over the corner of the end zone (or pylon, whatever) while you are in possession of the ball, AND the ball itself lands "past" the goal line (albeit out of bounds) it's a touchdown, even if the BALL ITSELF never is in the "airspace" of the end zone.

4. The logic for #3, above, is that the ball has "broken the plane of the goal (which extends around the world" while the PLAYER was not out of bounds in the field of play. If he hits the pylon, he's out of bounds IN THE END ZONE, so it's still a TD under those circumstances.

Anyone disagree with the above??


One minor correction to #3. It's not where the ball "lands" but where the ball "is" at the moment a portion of the ballcarriers body touches out of bounds.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 01:50 PM
One minor correction to #3. It's not where the ball "lands" but where the ball "is" at the moment a portion of the ballcarriers body touches out of bounds.

Right. That's effectively what I meant, but your description is cleaner and better.

Shag
01-20-2006, 02:08 PM
One minor correction to #3. It's not where the ball "lands" but where the ball "is" at the moment a portion of the ballcarriers body touches out of bounds.

It's probably even more accurate to say it's where the body is when the ball crosses the plane of the goal line... :)

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2006, 02:09 PM
Question:

In the Denver playoff game when Champ Baily returned the interception and fumbled the ball on the one yard line, why was it so important to know if the balls trajectory was inside the pylon or outside?

Luz
curious minds want to know???...
That's a good question, but once the ball crosses OOB without possession...it's spotted right there. It couldn't have got through the back or side of the endzone.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 02:22 PM
That's a good question, but once the ball crosses OOB without possession...it's spotted right there. It couldn't have got through the back or side of the endzone.


Sure it "could've" -- it was ruled that it didn't, but that doesn't mean it "couldn't have".

But the call was made and replays were utterly inconclusive, so that's that.

PastorMikH
01-20-2006, 03:05 PM
There's some info left out that hinders my ability to say TD or no TD. Do these take place in Denver or elsewhere?

#1. In Denver, with LJ carrying the ball - no TD. However, if it is one of the donkeys carrying the ball then it's a TD.

#2 In denver with the oponent carrying the ball, no. No TD. Champ Bailey on the other hand, due to fatige, we go ahead and give it to him 'cause he's such a nice guy.

#3. Tom Brady in Denver, no TD. Jake Plumber, not only is it a TD, but the donkeys are awarded 8 points total because of Jake's heroic run.



:)

PastorMikH
01-20-2006, 03:07 PM
Before reading all the posts, I'd have to say that in each instance the answer would be no TD.

#1 the knee is down before the ball crosses the goal.

#2 the foot, not the ball is inside the pylon.

#3 Again, even though his head and shoulders cross, the ball does not.

Extra Point
01-20-2006, 03:19 PM
Using the skycam at the goal line for replay proof, with the line of scrimmage within 15 yards of the goal line, makes sense to me. So long as it can be fixed at the line and swivel to observe the play, makes sense to me. A lot of controversy can be eliminated with that tool.

Cochise
01-20-2006, 03:29 PM
1 - no
2 - no
3 -no

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 03:31 PM
Before reading all the posts, I'd have to say that in each instance the answer would be no TD.

#1 the knee is down before the ball crosses the goal.

#2 the foot, not the ball is inside the pylon.

#3 Again, even though his head and shoulders cross, the ball does not.


you're correct on 1 and 3. 2 is waaaay complicated. Our summary of findings is on Post 64 of this thread, as slightly corrected by Patteeu for clarity in his following post.

Amnorix
01-20-2006, 03:33 PM
2 - no


2 is actually yes, TD, if the ball breaks the plane of the goal (even if it is not between the pylons), AND the player either touches the pylon, or has some part of his body or dives over it in some fashion.

See my post 64 of this thread summarizing our findings.

carlos3652
01-20-2006, 04:03 PM
I agree with the findings of no, yes, no,

And to answer your questions about the Safety on KO, the only way a Safety can be scored is if the player runs past the goal line and then hits the pylon, and even in this scenario, the ball will be spotted where the ball is when the player hits the pylon.

It would be extremely difficult to score a saftey on KO or Punts unless it clearly shows that there is no forward progress by the player.

*The only way I see a safety is if the player catches a Punt or KO with his foot on the goal line and he kneels down to take the touchback on accident...

andoman
01-20-2006, 07:32 PM
Where would the ball be spotted if a player dives out of bounds at the 50 with the ball being at say the 45 when he touches out of bounds? Do you spot the ball where it was when he last touched in bounds or at the 45?

jettio
01-20-2006, 09:12 PM
To score a touchdown, part of the player's body has to make it to the endzone in bounds or hit the pylon, and the ball has to be past the goal line, in or out of bounds, when the player is down by contact or by landing out of bounds.

If someone was at the three yard line and dove out of bounds and landed past the goal line out of bounds and without any part of his body passing over the endzone, it is not a touchdown.

HMc
01-20-2006, 09:42 PM
Where would the ball be spotted if a player dives out of bounds at the 50 with the ball being at say the 45 when he touches out of bounds? Do you spot the ball where it was when he last touched in bounds or at the 45?

Extending the logic would suggest that the ball is spotted wherever it is as his final piece of body leaves the plane extended up from the sideline? I'd be surprised to see it though.

HMc
01-20-2006, 09:45 PM
What about if a player is running the middle of the field (no pylon issue here), dives from the 5, and has the extended in front of his hands - i.e. he holds it by the tip - and the ball crosses the line before he is DBC, but no part of his body, including his hands, does?

Nelson Muntz
01-20-2006, 09:47 PM
To score a touchdown, part of the player's body has to make it to the endzone in bounds or hit the pylon, and the ball has to be past the goal line, in or out of bounds, when the player is down by contact or by landing out of bounds.

If someone was at the three yard line and dove out of bounds and landed past the goal line out of bounds and without any part of his body passing over the endzone, it is not a touchdown.

No the players body doesn't have to make it to the endzone. If the player goes airborn at the 2 crosses the goalline out of bounds and then lands out, its still a touchdown. The plane of the goal extends infinitely.

HMc
01-20-2006, 09:53 PM
No the players body doesn't have to make it to the endzone. If the player goes airborn at the 2 crosses the goalline out of bounds and then lands out, its still a touchdown. The plane of the goal extends infinitely.

According to whats been presented in this thread, some part of the player's body must enter the endzone airspace. It's the ball that doesn't have to.

HMc
01-20-2006, 09:56 PM
After giving it some thought, it makes sense that some of the players body would have to enter the endzone. If a defender lays a massive hit on a runner at the 1 or the 2, and that player goes flying OOB (i.e no chance of body crossing plane), but still manages to get the ball across the "around the world" goal line, then it should hardly be a TD, IMHO.

jettio
01-20-2006, 10:49 PM
No the players body doesn't have to make it to the endzone. If the player goes airborn at the 2 crosses the goalline out of bounds and then lands out, its still a touchdown. The plane of the goal extends infinitely.

As long as I have been watching football I have never seen a TD called when someone landed out-of-bounds beyond the goal line without any part of his body making it into the endzone. Never.

I have seen plenty of times when that happened and it was ruled out of bounds short of the goal-line.

You are describing a theory reflecting your incorrect understanding of the rule, if there has ever been a time when someone scored a TD that way it would be if the official blew the call.

That rule has not recently changed, this is a board made up of people that have been watching football their whole lives, and I doubt that anyone could name one TD that they have ever seen where no part of the player reached the endzone inbounds.

mcan
01-21-2006, 01:40 AM
The "plane of the goalline" is a forward progress issue... It has nothing to do with how to call a player out of bounds.


Lets say for instance, that I was in the open field and ran for a first down at my 48 yard line, but decided to run out of bounds to stop the clock, and INTENTIONALLY ran out of bounds at the 47. I get the ball at the 47, and no first down. If I were to get HIT at the 48, and fall or be driven out of bounds at the 47, then I get forward progress to the 48, and it's a first down...

The same rule applies to SPOTTING the ball at the goal line. If I cross the plane of the goalline at all with the ball during play, it's an immediate touchdown, because I get FORWARD PROGRESS to the end zone... If, however, any part of my body touches the ground out of bounds BEFORE the ball crosses the plane, I am DOWN whereever my body was out. If that happens to be in the end zone, then it's a touchdown EVEN THOUGH THE BALL NEVER CROSSED THE PLANE... It's not a forward progress issue. It's an issue of spotting the ball where the player stepped out. Priest Holmes has scored SEVERAL touchdowns like this. (where he tiptoed around the pile on, while holding the ball behind him doing that dragstep). The ball never entered the end zone, but HE stepped out of bounds in the end zone. That is a touchdown.

No the players body doesn't have to make it to the endzone. If the player goes airborn at the 2 crosses the goalline out of bounds and then lands out, its still a touchdown. The plane of the goal extends infinitely.

(EDITED, I misunderstood the post.) This is true. If the player first touches down out of bounds past the goalline, then he is DOWN in the end zone, and it's a TD.

mcan
01-21-2006, 01:51 AM
After giving it some thought, it makes sense that some of the players body would have to enter the endzone. If a defender lays a massive hit on a runner at the 1 or the 2, and that player goes flying OOB (i.e no chance of body crossing plane), but still manages to get the ball across the "around the world" goal line, then it should hardly be a TD, IMHO.


He is down wherever the first part of his body lands on the ground out of bounds. Not where the ball is when he lands out of bounds. If he lands on his head one inch into the end zone, then it's a touchdown. I believe this is how Jake Plummer scored against us two or three years ago at Arrowhead on the play that he got his concussion. That game went into overtime. I believe the play was reviewed because the ball didn't cross the plane, and everybody in the stands was screaming, but his helmet knocked the pile on out of bounds, so his head was litterally the first part of his body to go down, and since it was in the endzone, it was a touchdown. Then they had to bring in their third stringer because Bubby Brister didn't suit up that day. We kicked the game winner in overtime...

leviw
01-21-2006, 02:01 AM
He is down wherever the first part of his body lands on the ground out of bounds. Not where the ball is when he lands out of bounds. If he lands on his head one inch into the end zone, then it's a touchdown. I believe this is how Jake Plummer scored against us two or three years ago at Arrowhead on the play that he got his concussion. That game went into overtime. I believe the play was reviewed because the ball didn't cross the plane, and everybody in the stands was screaming, but his helmet knocked the pile on out of bounds, so his head was litterally the first part of his body to go down, and since it was in the endzone, it was a touchdown. Then they had to bring in their third stringer because Bubby Brister didn't suit up that day. We kicked the game winner in overtime...

Sounds about right, except I'm 99% sure you're referring to the 2001 game at Arrowhead. Griese was hurt and didn't play. Gus Frerotte started the game, but was knoced out with a seperated shoulder on the touchdown run, and Jarious Jackson came in.

Sorry, I love details.

Jayhawkerman2001
01-21-2006, 02:47 AM
in some instances like if his foot did hit the pylon before he is technically out of bounds and the ball doesnt break the pylon, it is a touchdown, this season i have seen it ruled that way a couple of times, so i guess thats how that is with that, i think if your infront of the goal line the ball has to break the plane. i think if your past the goal line like on the side of it and you touch it, i think you have gone enough yards, and all ya need to do is touch the pylon

mcan
01-21-2006, 02:55 AM
Sounds about right, except I'm 99% sure you're referring to the 2001 game at Arrowhead. Griese was hurt and didn't play. Gus Frerotte started the game, but was knoced out with a seperated shoulder on the touchdown run, and Jarious Jackson came in.

Sorry, I love details.


Yep, that's the one... My brain remembers the whole thing like a photo, but I can't read the names on the jerseys... I just remember that we won, and that it went into overtime, and that I was at Arrowhead by myself sitting in the first row on the 50 yard line, right behind the Denver bench, where I had a hell of time yelling at Chester McGlockton when he was on the sidelines on a key third and short... "Why aren't you out there, buddy? Shanny got you playing special teams now?!"

Then Tom Rouen shanked a punt pretty bad, and I gave him some encouragement when he picked up his ball bag (that was sitting about 3 yards away from me). "That's OK Tommy, as bad as this offense is, you'll get another shot in about 10 minutes... You just relax... You'll get em next time!"

mcan
01-21-2006, 02:59 AM
in some instances like if his foot did hit the pylon before he is technically out of bounds and the ball doesnt break the pylon, it is a touchdown, this season i have seen it ruled that way a couple of times, so i guess thats how that is with that, i think if your infront of the goal line the ball has to break the plane.

i think if your past the goal line like on the side of it and you touch it, i think you have gone enough yards, and all ya need to do is touch the pylon


Words in bold: Winner; 1st place... National Run-On-Sentance Award.

Words in italics: First runner up; Same Event.

Congratulations man! :clap:

Jayhawkerman2001
01-21-2006, 03:03 AM
Ha Ha Ha!! im tired, lol. its almost 3 in the mornin and i cant sleep. i read the post about 5 minutes ago... and i felt like a dip shit. but from what i read, i think its understandable in a way. heh. thats what Bonner Springs education will get ya, nowhere.

Jayhawkerman2001
01-21-2006, 03:18 AM
bah your probably just a Kstate fan trying to kick a KU guy while hes down. wont be down too long, cause webe KU, enough said. basketball is our speciality. but it is weird to see them sucking balls right now. im not used to it at all, i dont really know what to do. its like if the yankees fans have a team that doesnt really do too well a season, the fans have no clue what to do. face it, KU is baskeball, we bread basketball, we are basketball, has kstate ever been? hell no

mcan
01-21-2006, 03:39 AM
bah your probably just a Kstate fan trying to kick a KU guy while hes down. wont be down too long, cause webe KU, enough said. basketball is our speciality. but it is weird to see them sucking balls right now. im not used to it at all, i dont really know what to do. its like if the yankees fans have a team that doesnt really do too well a season, the fans have no clue what to do. face it, KU is baskeball, we bread basketball, we are basketball, has kstate ever been? hell no


I root for the Big 12 pretty much all the way, and I'm not a big college sports rivalry guy. I did listen to the game and I was proud of our boys for going to into the Fieldhouse and coming home with the W after 31 years or whatever it was. But, I in no way mean to pick on the Jayhawks especially for grammer. I just read your post, and wondered... Shit, was there EVER a period in that thing? Then I found it... The one... The only... My grammer is terrible though, so if I throw a stone, expect to come in the form of a joke.

mcan,
overuses the elipse... ... ...

Jayhawkerman2001
01-21-2006, 03:45 AM
I gotcha. my grammer is usually fine, my mother was a teacher, heh.

Amnorix
08-06-2007, 11:28 AM
I've dredged this thread from the depths because the rule has changed as of 2007. The goal line no longer extends to infinity
.
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/08/05/career_has_run_its_course/?page=3