Are we ever going to get school vouchers?

[KC Jones]

I've never understood the argument against this. Let the money follow the kids and parents will put kids in the schools that give them the best shot. It just makes too much sense. Especially when you have a joke of a public school system like KC.

Check out Ruskin's test results. (where I would have gone had my parents not sent me to a private school)

MAP Results
Scale: % at or above proficient

Grade 10
Math
0% (2005)
1% (2004)
1% (2003)
1% (2002)
The state average for Math was 17% in 2005.


WTF? The state average for Missouri is that only 17% of high school students have a proficient understanding of basic math? Ruskin's 'Communication Arts' scores weren't much better either. You'd have to be insane to hand your kids over to a school like that and think they would overcome that environment to be one of the 1 to 5 kids that actually has basic math skills.

[tiptap]

I've never understood the argument against this. Let the money follow the kids and parents will put kids in the schools that give them the best shot. It just makes too much sense. Especially when you have a joke of a public school system like KC.

Check out Ruskin's test results. (where I would have gone had my parents not sent me to a private school)

MAP Results
Scale: % at or above proficient

Grade 10
Math
0% (2005)
1% (2004)
1% (2003)
1% (2002)
The state average for Math was 17% in 2005.


WTF? The state average for Missouri is that only 17% of high school students have a proficient understanding of basic math? Ruskin's 'Communication Arts' scores weren't much better either. You'd have to be insane to hand your kids over to a school like that and think they would overcome that environment to be one of the 1 to 5 kids that actually has basic math skills.

Do you think education funding debate can be encapsulized by your lone example?

What is the funding level at Ruskin? What is the school room size? What were the numbers for proficiency at other grade levels? Is this a failing at High School level (most educators feel we lose kids starting high school and we could discuss that). How good of tool is the proficiency test? Does it really give us a measurement of understanding or is it narrow in its accessments?

How much cherry picking will take place in private schools in not taking children who have true learning problems and behavior difficulties (even when bright)? Not enough on the table for you to make your case yet.

No one is keeping you (or your parents obviously) from choosing to send kids to private schools. I have at times sent my kids to both private and public schools.

[unlurking]

Then give me a tax break for sending my kid to private school so I'm not paying for 2 educations (one bad and one good).

[tiptap]

Then give me a tax break for sending my kid to private school so I'm not paying for 2 educations (one bad and one good).

Take the time to choose school board members who husband the resources well that you did in choosing your private school and move both educations forward.

I am sure you think that the better education you recieve will mean a better income over you lifetime. You didn't lose personally.

[Boozer]

Watching the charter school debacle in Arizona has greatly diminished any belief I had that vouchers are a cure-all for American education.

[Adept Havelock]

I've never understood this.

The one profession that enables almost all other professions to exist, and we pay them crap wages, and then complain that we can't get more decent teachers.

[HolyHandgernade]

Then give me a tax break for sending my kid to private school so I'm not paying for 2 educations (one bad and one good).

Its just as much your responsibility to "promote the general welfare" whether you use the system or not. People with no kids don't escape the responsibility, just because you choose not to use the system doesn't mean you are absolved of responsibility to the whole.

-HH

[Cochise]

"The party of choice"

[Pitt Gorilla]

I've never understood the argument against this. Let the money follow the kids and parents will put kids in the schools that give them the best shot. It just makes too much sense. Especially when you have a joke of a public school system like KC.

Check out Ruskin's test results. (where I would have gone had my parents not sent me to a private school)

MAP Results
Scale: % at or above proficient

Grade 10
Math
0% (2005)
1% (2004)
1% (2003)
1% (2002)
The state average for Math was 17% in 2005.


WTF? The state average for Missouri is that only 17% of high school students have a proficient understanding of basic math? Ruskin's 'Communication Arts' scores weren't much better either. You'd have to be insane to hand your kids over to a school like that and think they would overcome that environment to be one of the 1 to 5 kids that actually has basic math skills.
Proficient understanding of "basic math?" Where did you get the "basic" part? Do you understand how the state of Missouri defines proficiency? :shake:

[redbrian]

Proficient understanding of "basic math?" Where did you get the "basic" part? Do you understand how the state of Missouri defines proficiency? :shake:

You are going to see a jump in proficiency in Missouri schools in the coming years if the State Government gets the standards lowered.

They are presently looking at lowering the standards down to those recommended by the federal government (although still higher than those used in Kansas).

[jAZ]

Watching the charter school debacle in Arizona has greatly diminished any belief I had that vouchers are a cure-all for American education.
It's a grand experiment, and I think it *can* work. But it requires a great deal of overhead to manage. If it's left up to a total free market system, school operators will game the system to exploit the voucher system for their own personal reasons (wealth, religion, etc).

I have a friend who works at one, and she's torn. There are some good ones, but there are some very, very, very bad ones.

I'm hoping that incremental changes will improve the system over time. And that as other states adopt a similar system, they will use the lessons AZ has learned.

[jAZ]

I have a friend who works at one, and she's torn. There are some good ones, but there are some very, very, very bad ones.
Her charter school (she teaches 4th in a K-12 school with 750 kids), has scrapped all subjects but math, reading and writing. All in the effort to meet the standards that are tested for in AZ.

No science is taught.
No history.
No PE.
No health.
No computers.
No government.

It's a frightening twist that I expect will crop up in other places.

[Pitt Gorilla]

You are going to see a jump in proficiency in Missouri schools in the coming years if the State Government gets the standards lowered.

They are presently looking at lowering the standards down to those recommended by the federal government (although still higher than those used in Kansas).Exactly. The Missouri standard for proficiency is very high; certainly much higher than "basic math." I still don't understand that ignorant statement.

[redbrian]

Exactly. The Missouri standard for proficiency is very high; certainly much higher than "basic math." I still don't understand that ignorant statement.

People just do not understand how the states set their education standards.

I’ve had conversations with several folks who are fairly intelligent but don’t understand that the states set there own standards.

Many people are under the misunderstanding that the Feds set the same standards for all schools.

[Pitt Gorilla]

People just do not understand how the states set their education standards.

I’ve had conversations with several folks who are fairly intelligent but don’t understand that the states set there own standards.

Many people are under the misunderstanding that the Feds set the same standards for all schools.Not only are the standards different, but the tests are different as well.

[KC Jones]

Proficient understanding of "basic math?" Where did you get the "basic" part? Do you understand how the state of Missouri defines proficiency? :shake:

I admit I am ignorant of what exactly the state requires for a proficiency rating. I was assuming that a strong understanding of Trigonometry, Geometry, and Algebra would be required, which in my mind equates to basic math. I do not think they should require a strong understanding of Linear algebra, Calculus, or advanced mathematics.

[Pitt Gorilla]

I admit I am ignorant of what exactly the state requires for a proficiency rating. I was assuming that a strong understanding of Trigonometry, Geometry, and Algebra would be required, which in my mind equates to basic math. I do not think they should require a strong understanding of Linear algebra, Calculus, or advanced mathematics.I can tell you that conceptual understanding and application represent critical components on Missouri's test. Compare that to the 8th grade basic skills test that was used for 10th graders in Texas a few years ago, and it is clear that the comparisons mean nothing. NCLB is a joke.

[CRONUS]

The NEA is one of the most politically powerful unions (yes I know they claim it is only an association) in the nation, and they are against it. As such it is very unlikely that in the forseeable future you will see them implemented on a nationwide basis.

[KC Jones]

Do you think education funding debate can be encapsulized by your lone example?

What is the funding level at Ruskin? What is the school room size? What were the numbers for proficiency at other grade levels? Is this a failing at High School level (most educators feel we lose kids starting high school and we could discuss that). How good of tool is the proficiency test? Does it really give us a measurement of understanding or is it narrow in its accessments?

How much cherry picking will take place in private schools in not taking children who have true learning problems and behavior difficulties (even when bright)? Not enough on the table for you to make your case yet.

No one is keeping you (or your parents obviously) from choosing to send kids to private schools. I have at times sent my kids to both private and public schools.

Those are all valid points and I don't want kids left behind, but I'd rather have some kids left behind than all of them. You must not be familiar with the KCMO school district. It's one of the worst in the country and it lost accreditation years ago. They are making improvements and working hard to get it back but it will be years more in the making. Places like Ruskin are dead ends. Vouchers are not the end all be all of curing what ills our educational system but I think they would only help.

In a lot of European countries the money follows the kids and the parents have a choice of what schools to send their children to. The result is competition and genuine pride in education rather than treating it like a place to dump the kids while the parents are working. Most of the people I work with are from Asia and they are aghast at the schools here in CO which are excellent. A buddy of mine is getting ready to move back to India and he's really worried about his kids going back into their education system because their going to be at least a year or two behind their peers in terms of math and science. In India Calculus is a part of basic high school math.

Sure, dismiss all of this as anecdotal (which it is) and while you're shooting down my case we continue to have a terrible education problem here in the U.S. Vouchers would at the very least drive money to the schools that are doing something right or whose population is genuinely interested in education. KCMO is one of the most expensive school districts in the U.S. and yet the results are absolute crap. We'd all be better off if that money was freed up to go to the best schools (public or private).

I guess your proposal is to keep everything status quo and leave places like Ruskin alone? Just keep throwing money at the schools and they'll magically cure themselves? Vouchers are a way of the public holding schools accountable, and it places like KC that is desperately needed.

[redbrian]

Those are all valid points and I don't want kids left behind, but I'd rather have some kids left behind than all of them. You must not be familiar with the KCMO school district. It's one of the worst in the country and it lost accreditation years ago. They are making improvements and working hard to get it back but it will be years more in the making. Places like Ruskin are dead ends. Vouchers are not the end all be all of curing what ills our educational system but I think they would only help.

In a lot of European countries the money follows the kids and the parents have a choice of what schools to send their children to. The result is competition and genuine pride in education rather than treating it like a place to dump the kids while the parents are working. Most of the people I work with are from Asia and they are aghast at the schools here in CO which are excellent. A buddy of mine is getting ready to move back to India and he's really worried about his kids going back into their education system because their going to be at least a year or two behind their peers in terms of math and science. In India Calculus is a part of basic high school math.

Sure, dismiss all of this as anecdotal (which it is) and while you're shooting down my case we continue to have a terrible education problem here in the U.S. Vouchers would at the very least drive money to the schools that are doing something right or whose population is genuinely interested in education. KCMO is one of the most expensive school districts in the U.S. and yet the results are absolute crap. We'd all be better off if that money was freed up to go to the best schools (public or private).

I guess your proposal is to keep everything status quo and leave places like Ruskin alone? Just keep throwing money at the schools and they'll magically cure themselves? Vouchers are a way of the public holding schools accountable, and it places like KC that is desperately needed.

Is the KC School district the worst in the nation?

Probably not, when compared to other inner city urban school districts.

If you were to take these kids and plunk them down into the best district in the nation (and not change anything else), the vast majority of these kids would still fail.

It has to do more with genetics, social economic conditions and culture than it does the school system.

This is based on a very provocative book

Freakonomics [a rogue economist explores the hidden side of everything]
by Levitt, Steven D.

It’s really hard to argue with Levitt’s conclusions.

If the urban population would put off childbirth until the mother is over 30 and spend that time pursuing further education (be it formal or technical), in as little as one generation you would see test scores rise.

[penchief]

Good God, I hope not......

School vouchers are just another example of the power quo creating an issue with which they can elude their civic duty at the expense of the public good. It's just another way of diverting public assets back to the priveleged. If you were to throw in the environment, equal access to health, and living wages then you would understand my politics.

Before you jump on my shit, just hear me out......

When one benefits from a eco-political system that allows that person to maximize his or her earning potential in a society that encourages unlimited wealth, it is incumbent upon that person to repay the system by buffering it from, not only the corruption of the "free ride," but also from elitist privelege. That balance serves to buffer the society from economic and political revolution.

It does no good for those who benefit from a system to destroy it. It is in their best interest to protect their assets. Those assets include human resources and natural resources. Conserving and preserving those assets better serve our future than does exploitation and unbridled self-interest.

The only way to do that is to promote justice and fairness for all. The only way to do that is to promote equal opportunity.

Unfortunately, while equity may be the American Way it is not the way of the power elite who have bought and paid for the current presidency. It is now the time for our country to turn away from the power elite that currently has us by the nutsacks and turn back to our roots and the values that this country was founded upon.

Please, heed this call.

[Lurch]

Good God, I hope not......

School vouchers are just another example of the power quo creating an issue with which they can elude their civic duty at the expense of the public good. It's just another way of diverting public assets back to the priveleged. If you were to throw in the environment, equal access to health, and living wages then you would understand my politics.

Before you jump on my shit, just hear me out......

When one benefits from a eco-political system that allows that person to maximize his or her earning potential in a society that encourages unlimited wealth, it is incumbent upon that person to repay the system by buffering it from, not only the corruption of the "free ride," but also from elitist privelege. That balance serves to buffer the society from economic and political revolution.

It does no good for those who benefit from a system to destroy it. It is in their best interest to protect their assets. Those assets include human resources and natural resources. Conserving and preserving those assets better serve our future than does exploitation and unbridled self-interest.

The only way to do that is to promote justice and fairness for all. The only way to do that is to promote equal opportunity.

Unfortunately, while equity may be the American Way it is not the way of the power elite who have bought and paid for the current presidency. It is now the time for our country to turn away from the power elite that currently has us by the nutsacks and turn back to our roots and the values that this country was founded upon.

Please, heed this call.

Marx and Engel fan, I see. Nice.

[Lurch]

I've never understood this.

The one profession that enables almost all other professions to exist, and we pay them crap wages, and then complain that we can't get more decent teachers.

Of course, no one wants to really talk about that. Instead, choosing to rely on misleading rhetoric like "money doesn't solve the problem" and then comparing apples (US public schools, with the programs and offerings parents have come to demand) to oranges with stripped down systems in Europe and private systems here that have cherry picked their students while excluding "challenging" kids.

[penchief]

Marx and Engel fan, I see. Nice.

Negatory.

Just a fan of balance via pragmatism.

Not a fan of injustice via exploitation.

Besides, how can you say what you appear to be suggesting if you really read my post. I am advocating the preservation of our system and the buffering of it from revolution via the execution of personal responsibility by those who benefit from it most.

That is hardly communism. That is pragmatism and responsibe citizenship. The raping of a free society is not necessarily synonymous with "free enterprise." If so, I don't believe that our founding fathers meant for free enterprise to represent the same things that you must believe it does.

[unlurking]

Take the time to choose school board members who husband the resources well that you did in choosing your private school and move both educations forward.

...

This is absurdly unrealistic. I can do enough research to choose and enroll my son in an excellent private school in a month. My SINGLE vote as to who should be on the school board will NOT guarantee ANY improvement in my son's education. I could spend YEARS accomplishing that feat. Then I have the "trickle" down affect while waiting for the changes of a superior school board.

I don't know if you are OK with you're children staying home from school for a few years while you TRY to get the public education system improved, but I am not.

[unlurking]

Its just as much your responsibility to "promote the general welfare" whether you use the system or not. People with no kids don't escape the responsibility, just because you choose not to use the system doesn't mean you are absolved of responsibility to the whole.

-HH

See, I do not believe in a "welfare" state or economy. Your argument is akin to forcing people to pay a "religion tax" because it is a moral betterment to society, while at the same time not allowing them to specify what religion or church they believe it should go too.

Whether I choose to have responsibility for an inadequate welfare program should be no business of yours.

[tiptap]

This is absurdly unrealistic. I can do enough research to choose and enroll my son in an excellent private school in a month. My SINGLE vote as to who should be on the school board will NOT guarantee ANY improvement in my son's education. I could spend YEARS accomplishing that feat. Then I have the "trickle" down affect while waiting for the changes of a superior school board.

I don't know if you are OK with you're children staying home from school for a few years while you TRY to get the public education system improved, but I am not.

And my intent with my entry was that you do both. Enroll your child in a private school and do what you can to see improvement in the public school. As I indicated, I have done just that. But I have also had my oldest child kicked out of a private school, IN KINDERGARTEN, because he asked too many questions.

This was after giving us no indication of any problems at the parents/teachers meeting.

But if schools do not open the doors to all as a public institution they do not deserve public subsidies via vouchers for parents.

The exclusiveness and value of the private institution is in setting the criteria of inclusion.

[Taco John]

I am in great favor of school vouchers and will always vote in favor of them. The Government should have no place in schooling, but rather in setting acceptable standards and requiring the marketplace to meet those standards, or face losing their accreditation.

ALL schools should be private schools surviving solely on their ability to satisfy the market demands on them.

[Taco John]

Also... No, we're never going to get school vouchers. School vouchers mean that the government has to give up money to the private sector. Government schooling is too bloated to be able to suffer that kind of a blow, and too numbskulled to trust that the market can and will satisfy the need for proper education without the need for government schooling.

[SBK]

I have to get to bed, I just agreed wholeheartedly with TJ's last two posts.

If I die tonight, it's been fun.

[tiptap]

I am in great favor of school vouchers and will always vote in favor of them. The Government should have no place in schooling, but rather in setting acceptable standards and requiring the marketplace to meet those standards, or face losing their accreditation.

ALL schools should be private schools surviving solely on their ability to satisfy the market demands on them.

Historically, the idea of universal education, was established as a goal by Jefferson. In a democracy it is especially important to have an educated society. No one is denied additional opportunity of study be it at church, an organization or such. But assuring all have access, no matter what their economic status, seems to be pretty minimal in insuring the society has good workers. That requires public funding and a shared approach that is balanced against the abilities of the individual student. Not an easy task but impossible if we seperate our students education.

Markets are not always efficient even in the long run. Anyone who has studied "cornering the market", psychological economics, the fact we are not naturally logical but associative, how poorly markets can manage down turns, knows that we do not always act in ways that markets reflect honest worth. In true diversity of economics you want mixed economies so all options are in play. Sometimes a population is better served with less choice than the confusion of competing, duplicating costs.

I am all for private schools as an option. Just not vouchers as funding.

The success of private adventures or public government operations depends more upon the people involved than the revenue model. And if you believe you get what you pay for you can hardly be surprised if we find our public schools having difficult times producing a product we are happy with.

[penchief]

School vouchers are just another one of the retrocon's trojan horses.

[Garcia Bronco]

vouchers essentially give parents the right to their own money and also gives them a better hand into developing their own children...it's a no-brainer.

[Taco John]

Historically, the idea of universal education, was established as a goal by Jefferson. In a democracy it is especially important to have an educated society. No one is denied additional opportunity of study be it at church, an organization or such. But assuring all have access, no matter what their economic status, seems to be pretty minimal in insuring the society has good workers. That requires public funding and a shared approach that is balanced against the abilities of the individual student. Not an easy task but impossible if we seperate our students education.

Markets are not always efficient even in the long run. Anyone who has studied "cornering the market", psychological economics, the fact we are not naturally logical but associative, how poorly markets can manage down turns, knows that we do not always act in ways that markets reflect honest worth. In true diversity of economics you want mixed economies so all options are in play. Sometimes a population is better served with less choice than the confusion of competing, duplicating costs.

I am all for private schools as an option. Just not vouchers as funding.

The success of private adventures or public government operations depends more upon the people involved than the revenue model. And if you believe you get what you pay for you can hardly be surprised if we find our public schools having difficult times producing a product we are happy with.


Bah. Close the public schools and open up the market. It's time for a better product.

[Eye Patch]

The NEA is one of the most politically powerful unions (yes I know they claim it is only an association) in the nation, and they are against it. As such it is very unlikely that in the forseeable future you will see them implemented on a nationwide basis.


Ah... the NEA... another government bureaucracy dumped on us by the Carter administration which has become nothing but a rubber stamp for the teachers unions with it’s only creed of self preservation.

If you want to notice the decline of the educational system… it started from this point on.

Our school system is a government monopoly where choices are nil for those who can’t afford private schools.

Competition will make a better product….always have… always will.

[Eye Patch]

I've never understood this.

The one profession that enables almost all other professions to exist, and we pay them crap wages, and then complain that we can't get more decent teachers.

Ah… the motto of the teachers union.

That's the ticket... throw money at it... as if that would actually fix the problems.

I mean as a California teacher with 20 years... you pull down 80k and have two months off every year.

The teachers I know spend most of their time talking about the great two-month vacations they do every year.

Throw in a paid sabbatical here and there... it's all good.

[Mr. Kotter]

Of course, no one wants to really talk about that. Instead, choosing to rely on misleading rhetoric like "money doesn't solve the problem" and then comparing apples (US public schools, with the programs and offerings parents have come to demand) to oranges with stripped down systems in Europe and private systems here that have cherry picked their students while excluding "challenging" kids.

This is precisely what many of you that argue against increased compensation for teachers fail to realize....public school systems in the U.S. are required, by law, to offer more services and "programs" to more students than any other country on the face of the planet. So we aren't comparing apples to apples.

"Education" dollars in this country are eaten up by costs other countries don't spend "education" money on. You need to compare, to be fair, TEACHER PAY in other countries, (adjusted for cost of living) with that of the United States--and that's where you will see that we are far down the line, compared to other industrialized countries.

It's why so many good teachers who could make a real difference, LEAVE the profession. It's why many of us still in it, are likely to leave. You get what you pay for.

FTR, I refuse to join the NEA because they are a liberal political organization that spends money pushing an agenda I cannot support.

[Adept Havelock]

Ah… the motto of the teachers union.

That's the ticket... throw money at it... as if that would actually fix the problems.

I mean as a California teacher with 20 years... you pull down 80k and have two months off every year.

The teachers I know spend most of their time talking about the great two-month vacations they do every year.

Throw in a paid sabbatical here and there... it's all good.

I also know many teachers that work like hell for considerably less. Which Blue-Valley like school district are you talking about? I'm sure it's not an urban core one along the lines of the KC district, or St. Louis. Even if it is, what's the take-home rate once you figure in the Cost of Living? I'm willing to bet it's more than the difference in teacher pay.

I'm not talking about idiotic feel-good programs, or increasing the admin. BS teachers have to deal with, I'm talking about a very simple idea.

Even you should be able to see the simple logic "you get what you pay for". If you want very smart and dedicated people as teachers, you need to pay enough to attract them. Basic Business 101. Sorry you can't see that.

[Taco John]

I also know many teachers that work like hell for considerably less. Which Blue-Valley like school district are you talking about? I'm sure it's not an urban core one along the lines of the KC district, or St. Louis. Even if it is, what's the take-home rate once you figure in the Cost of Living? I'm willing to bet it's more than the difference in teacher pay.

I'm not talking about idiotic feel-good programs, or increasing the admin. BS teachers have to deal with, I'm talking about a very simple idea.

Even you should be able to see the simple logic "you get what you pay for". If you want very smart and dedicated people as teachers, you need to pay enough to attract them. Basic Business 101. Sorry you can't see that.


I like that... Basic Business 101. Keep thinking like that. There may be hope for vouchers yet with arguments like this.

[tiptap]

Competition will make a better product….always have… always will.

Crap. The biggest monopoly was Standard Oil. The company was run by Rockefellar. In a very real sense he was the philosopher king over oil. Did he always do what was best in the long run. Of course not (gas flaring to get to oil Indiana vs Standard Oil) but his company did remove the gold rush mentality that was wasteful and duplicative because of competition.

When Standard Oil unilateraly raised gas prices 2 cent (not a small amount I know) the push to break up the monopoly gained support. The result was that with the split prices again went up as the companies had to cover duplicate overhead now for 8 instead of one co. Competition led to trying to get that little edge by skirting law and being less concerned about engineering health problems.

It is inane to assume that competition is a magic bullet for every ill in the economy. There is competition now with private schools. But as (ugh) Kotter says school districts are saddled with a great deal of demands beside traditional education.

[Mr. Kotter]

...It is inane to assume that competition is a magic bullet for every ill in the economy. There is competition now with private schools. But as (ugh) Kotter says school districts are saddled with a great deal of demands beside traditional education.

And this is a part of the discussion NO ONE really wants to talk about: public schools, generally, are given a "raw resource" that is substandard in nearly every way, to the "raw resource" that most private schools are given. Private school children, generally, have significant advantages over kids in public schools, yet we are surprised when public schools don't perform as well as some private schools? Please.

If public schools got to cherry-pick their kids, and had a similar percent of "challenging kids" and "gifted kids" as private schools, many would perform just as well or better. Period.

[mlyonsd]

IMO the biggest problem with the school system isn't the system. It's the parents that don't get involved with their kid's education.

They expect teachers to do part of the parenting job.

[Chief Faithful]

If you were to take these kids and plunk them down into the best district in the nation (and not change anything else), the vast majority of these kids would still fail.

It has to do more with genetics, social economic conditions and culture than it does the school system.



That is not the case in Georgia. Private schools are very popular in this state because parents have learned there is a difference. Most of the kids in my sons private school, including my own son, were floundering in the government school, but excel in the private school. And the work in the private school is much more challanging as it is considered a college prep school.

We have also seen a hugh difference from state to state in how the child can perform better in the better school. This evidence is so prevasive that many parents live on the edge of poverty just to ensure their child has a chance.

The difference in quality and performance of the students is astounding between government and private schools in Georgia. I'm convinced vouchers would help here and in most states. Even if not vouchers simple tax breaks for the cost of the private school would help both the student and provide market pressure on the government schools.

I'm always amazed at those who think they are showing compassion when they fight vouchers or other alternatives to government schooling when in truth they are hurting everyone.

[Chief Faithful]

vouchers essentially give parents the right to their own money and also gives them a better hand into developing their own children...it's a no-brainer.

Oh crap, now I'm strongly agreeing with a Bronco fan! I need a shower.

[Chief Faithful]

Ah... the NEA... another government bureaucracy dumped on us by the Carter administration which has become nothing but a rubber stamp for the teachers unions with it’s only creed of self preservation.

If you want to notice the decline of the educational system… it started from this point on.

Our school system is a government monopoly where choices are nil for those who can’t afford private schools.

Competition will make a better product….always have… always will.

I may hate your team, but I do enjoy your posts.

Competition works the football field, in the market, and in the class room. I get the impression there are a lot of people supporting government schools because they are still hurt at being the last person picked to play kickball as a kid.

[Chief Faithful]

School vouchers are just another example of the power quo creating an issue with which they can elude their civic duty at the expense of the public good. It's just another way of diverting public assets back to the priveleged. If you were to throw in the environment, equal access to health, and living wages then you would understand my politics.



You are full of crap. There will always be a priveleged class or wealthier class in any society. These are the people that always have the ability to make a choice and don't care what you think is their public duty. By not supporting vouchers or tax breaks the only people you are denying choice are the very people you want to help.

[Mr. Kotter]

.... I get the impression there are a lot of people supporting government schools because they are still hurt at being the last person picked to play kickball as a kid.

Some public schools are crap, but many are not. Many, if given the same students and families, and conditions, as private schools are, would out-perform those private schools you are raving about.

"If you can't do anything......teach." You know, that is one of the most over-hyped stereotypes of all. Of course, there are some lame teachers; but a lot of the "business" and "real world" folks I run into that drive a nicer car, live in a bigger house, and draw a bigger paycheck are much less intelligent, much less civic minded, and much less of a person than the vast majority of my colleagues. Proof is, many of us who have also worked in or have left education for the real world, often run circles around those people--people who are simply more materialistic and motivated by almost entirely by the almighty dollar.

By all means, go ahead and continue to stereotype, and over-generalize, and shit on teachers. Don't let me interupt your little rant; however, I thought it should not go unaswered.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Some public schools are crap, but many are not. Many, if given the same students and families, and conditions, as private schools are, would out-perform those private schools you are raving about.

"If you can't do anything......teach." You know, that is one of the most over-hyped stereotypes of all. Of course, there are some lame teachers; but a lot of the "business" and "real world" folks I run into that drive a nicer car, live in a bigger house, and draw a bigger paycheck are much less intelligent, much less civic minded, and much less of a person than the vast majority of my colleagues. Proof is, many of us who have also worked in or have left education for the real world, often run circles around those people--people who are simply more materialistic and motivated by almost entirely by the almighty dollar.

By all means, go ahead and continue to stereotype, and over-generalize, and shit on teachers. Don't let me interupt your little rant; however, I thought it should not go unaswered.There are certainly crappy teachers. Usually, though, they come from crappy institutions. At our institution, the teaching majors come in with a higher ACT than the business folk (that includes elementary ed). I think people would be surprised how bright many future teachers really are.

[Mr. Kotter]

There are certainly crappy teachers. Usually, though, they come from crappy institutions. At our institution, the teaching majors come in with a higher ACT than the business folk (that includes elementary ed). I think people would be surprised how bright many future teachers really are.

Yup. The key is keeping them in the profession though, and because of pay, public attitudes and lack of respect, and increasingly demanding and unrealistic expectations, too many will leave the profession for greener and more lucrative pastures elsewhere. The irony is they will often displace and surpass many of the people most critical of "teachers."

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The NCLB Act is set up so that schools will fail the proficiency tests which will then lead the public to embrace vouchers. This is no different than any other attempt by the right to privatize everything. What most people don't know is that the major contributor of testing supplies for the NCLB is McGraw Hill, of whom the executives are close friends with the Bush family; they even have condos near one another in Jupiter, Fla.

[Lurch]

The NCLB Act is set up so that schools will fail the proficiency tests which will then lead the public to embrace vouchers. This is no different than any other attempt by the right to privatize everything. What most people don't know is that the major contributor of testing supplies for the NCLB is McGraw Hill, of whom the executives are close friends with the Bush family; they even have condos near one another in Jupiter, Fla.

Exactly right. NCLB is backdoor vouchers.

[tiptap]

That is not the case in Georgia. Private schools are very popular in this state because parents have learned there is a difference. Most of the kids in my sons private school, including my own son, were floundering in the government school, but excel in the private school. And the work in the private school is much more challanging as it is considered a college prep school.

We have also seen a hugh difference from state to state in how the child can perform better in the better school. This evidence is so prevasive that many parents live on the edge of poverty just to ensure their child has a chance.

The difference in quality and performance of the students is astounding between government and private schools in Georgia. I'm convinced vouchers would help here and in most states. Even if not vouchers simple tax breaks for the cost of the private school would help both the student and provide market pressure on the government schools.

I'm always amazed at those who think they are showing compassion when they fight vouchers or other alternatives to government schooling when in truth they are hurting everyone.


You want to know what is the biggest correlation between students going to college or not. It is how much expectation for going to college exists within the population of students attending the institution. If the students don't have an expectation of going to college they don't find the education relevent. Doing well only matters if you are trying to get into college.

So if students with parents with expectations of college for their students pool their kids together they will have a supportive enviroment for academics. But it doesn't have to be private as public schools in affluent areas also see this.

The real measure of a good school is how large of incoming uninterested students can be shown the value and take advantage of the opportunity for an education.

[penchief]

You are full of crap. There will always be a priveleged class or wealthier class in any society. These are the people that always have the ability to make a choice and don't care what you think is their public duty. By not supporting vouchers or tax breaks the only people you are denying choice are the very people you want to help.

Do you really believe that these vouchers are going to benefit everybody? No, the "new" republicans see it as a way to funnel money away from the public school system.

What happens when the voucher doesn't cover the full cost of tuition? What if the school doesn't accept the voucher or want the student? What happens if there are no private schools in the vicinity? If transportation is required, who pays for that?

Unless the government is going to foot all of these expenses and ensure equal access I find it more likely that these vouchers will benefit the private schools, those families who already have the means to attend private schools, and the desire of the retrocons to gut the federal government at the expense of the public school system, the lesser privileged children, and the overall public good.

If you could satisfactorily explain to me how the government is going to meet the educational, social, and economic logistics that their so-called "voucher" program demands I would view it with a more open mind.

But as long as the retrocons continue to roll out their trojan horses as a means to undermine existing programs and deceive the country into going along with their, otherwise, unpopular domestic agenda, I will continue to doubt the sincerity of such proposals. Their track record and their pattern of double-speak has been enough evidence anyone would need to doubt their sincerity.

[Sully]

There are certainly crappy teachers. Usually, though, they come from crappy institutions. At our institution, the teaching majors come in with a higher ACT than the business folk (that includes elementary ed). I think people would be surprised how bright many future teachers really are.

I'm assuming you mean Mizzou. I was in the Ed. program there, and learned more in my ed. classes, that was more relevant to the world, than any other class I took before or since. It's a great Ed. school down there with profs that have the experience and actually care...
... off my soapbox now.

[Chief Faithful]

Some public schools are crap, but many are not. Many, if given the same students and families, and conditions, as private schools are, would out-perform those private schools you are raving about.



Absolutely! That is the whole point of the vouchers, tax breaks, or any other program that has been shot down. These proposals do nothing more than give parents a little power. Give parents some choice and things will get better or the poor performing schools will find themselves with a much smaller student population.

Why should I be pleased with a crap school and no choice because I am not rich? Give me back some of my tax money and I will be able to ensure my child gets the better education. In this environment the government school will need to either clean up its act or it will disappear.

[Chief Faithful]

Do you really believe that these vouchers are going to benefit everybody? No, the "new" republicans see it as a way to funnel money away from the public school system.



This is not a Democrat or Republican issue unless you have bought into the whole class warfare mentality.

If you have a good performing school there is no need to leave it. But why take away the choice from middle class and poor parents through taxation? With the current system only the wealthy have a choice.

[Chief Faithful]

You want to know what is the biggest correlation between students going to college or not. It is how much expectation for going to college exists within the population of students attending the institution. If the students don't have an expectation of going to college they don't find the education relevent. Doing well only matters if you are trying to get into college.

So if students with parents with expectations of college for their students pool their kids together they will have a supportive enviroment for academics. But it doesn't have to be private as public schools in affluent areas also see this.

The real measure of a good school is how large of incoming uninterested students can be shown the value and take advantage of the opportunity for an education.

That is not my arguement. My point is choice has been taken away from parents to ensure their child gets adequate education because of taxes. Vouchers is only one of many proposals that would help. Once parents have a little power back things will get better.

When I was in Chicago the government school was wonderful and there was no need to seek out a private school. Consequently there are few private schools in that specific area due to low demand. Here is Georgia the government schools are crap consequently demand is high and private schools are plentiful.

In my case I have 4 kids and send only one to private school. If the local government school was any good at all then I would not send him to private school. This has nothing to do with his interest in college it is a simple matter of getting him the education so he has a choice.

Let the market forces take effect and schools will get better. You want to decide how taxes go toward my childs education. Let me have some of my own money back and I can decide.

[tiptap]

That is not my arguement. My point is choice has been taken away from parents to ensure their child gets adequate education because of taxes. Vouchers is only one of many proposals that would help. Once parents have a little power back things will get better.

When I was in Chicago the government school was wonderful and there was no need to seek out a private school. Consequently there are few private schools in that specific area due to low demand. Here is Georgia the government schools are crap consequently demand is high and private schools are plentiful.

In my case I have 4 kids and send only one to private school. If the local government school was any good at all then I would not send him to private school. This has nothing to do with his interest in college it is a simple matter of getting him the education so he has a choice.

Let the market forces take effect and schools will get better. You want to decide how taxes go toward my childs education. Let me have some of my own money back and I can decide.

Ok lets talk market for minute. If you allowed vouchers you would increase the bidding for precieved good schools. How many openings are there and how much additional capacity is there within those schools. Do they provide for hanicapped special ed as required by federal disabilities act? Do they have capacity and focus for trade education?

My suspicion is that the bidding would end up increasing the tuition for schools as they seek to limit entry and they would not meet the criteria for meeting special needs and would have to discriminate illegally if accepting government funds. Now I understand you think that that money is yours but realistically it is funded by a broad base tax that is paid by all children or not. Your receipt of service for 4 children is excess of your tax liability unless your house is truly spectacular. Therefore it is not like a rebate and you have to enforce the scale of services offered by public schools if you are using public funds.

[penchief]

This is not a Democrat or Republican issue unless you have bought into the whole class warfare mentality.

If you have a good performing school there is no need to leave it. But why take away the choice from middle class and poor parents through taxation? With the current system only the wealthy have a choice.



I'm not big on conspiracy theories either, but if you don't think this administration is waging class warfare then I'm afraid you haven't been paying attention. Class warfare is a two-way street.

Cheneyburton is bought and paid for. They clearly represent corporate interests and the interests of the monied elite. Every single policy proposal they push is either blatantly tilted toward those who have power and control wealth or is cloaked in double-speak intended to give the impression of a populist sentiment while undermining that which it pretends to promote (i.e. healthy forests, clear skies, no child left behind, uniter not a divider, etc.). The pattern is clear and unmistakable.

It's not class warfare when someone simply accuses another of practicing it for political gain. It is class warfare when one actually advocates and implements policies which benefit one class over the other without fail, each and every time (see jobs, wages, overtime laws, health insurance, health care, environment, minimum wage, bankruptcy laws, pension renegging, etc.). The list could go on and on. They have been able to do this with the assistance of their bought-and-paid-for corporate ass-kissers in the republican controlled congress.

There is no mistaking where the Cheneyburton retrocons fall on this subject. They land smack dab in the middle of the early 1900's in relation to working families, the conditions they are subjected to, and the unbridled power and influence of those who control business and wealth in this nation.

That is, and always has been, the dark side of our great country. Unfortunately, those forces have somehow managed to grab us by the nutsacks once again.

[patteeu]

This is not a Democrat or Republican issue unless you have bought into the whole class warfare mentality.

Dude, you are talking to penchief. He hasn't just bought into the mentality, he is a major shareholder and has a seat on the board of directors.

[patteeu]

Ok lets talk market for minute. If you allowed vouchers you would increase the bidding for precieved good schools. How many openings are there and how much additional capacity is there within those schools. Do they provide for hanicapped special ed as required by federal disabilities act? Do they have capacity and focus for trade education?

My suspicion is that the bidding would end up increasing the tuition for schools as they seek to limit entry and they would not meet the criteria for meeting special needs and would have to discriminate illegally if accepting government funds. Now I understand you think that that money is yours but realistically it is funded by a broad base tax that is paid by all children or not. Your receipt of service for 4 children is excess of your tax liability unless your house is truly spectacular. Therefore it is not like a rebate and you have to enforce the scale of services offered by public schools if you are using public funds.

This is similar to the reasons I oppose school vouchers (although I'm sure we come at it from completely different perspectives). I think vouchers will drive up the cost of private schools to the point that the average person would be unable to afford to send their kids to these schools without government assistance even if they were willing to make personal sacrifices of the kind many parents make today. I also think that if vouchers become prevalent, the next step will be ever-increasing government regulation/micromanagement of the private schools.

[penchief]

Dude, you are talking to penchief. He hasn't just bought into the mentality, he is a major shareholder and has a seat on the board of directors.

:D

[Chief Faithful]

Ok lets talk market for minute. If you allowed vouchers you would increase the bidding for precieved good schools. How many openings are there and how much additional capacity is there within those schools. Do they provide for hanicapped special ed as required by federal disabilities act? Do they have capacity and focus for trade education?

My suspicion is that the bidding would end up increasing the tuition for schools as they seek to limit entry and they would not meet the criteria for meeting special needs and would have to discriminate illegally if accepting government funds. Now I understand you think that that money is yours but realistically it is funded by a broad base tax that is paid by all children or not. Your receipt of service for 4 children is excess of your tax liability unless your house is truly spectacular. Therefore it is not like a rebate and you have to enforce the scale of services offered by public schools if you are using public funds.

Yes, bidding may go up and people will seek alternatives including government schooling. Vouchers have never been proposed as providing full tuition only a little money with the rest made up by the parents. If the bidding goes too high that means demand for a good school is high and other alternatives will develop in that area. This will also put pressure on the government school to clean up its act and even if it doesn't the school population will be down and by that fact alone the education will improve and parents will have more say.

By your own example when demand increases more alternatives will develop. Again I don't see the down side of your example.

[Chief Faithful]

I'm not big on conspiracy theories either, but if you don't think this administration is waging class warfare then I'm afraid you haven't been paying attention. Class warfare is a two-way street.

Cheneyburton is bought and paid for. They clearly represent corporate interests and the interests of the monied elite. Every single policy proposal they push is either blatantly tilted toward those who have power and control wealth or is cloaked in double-speak intended to give the impression of a populist sentiment while undermining that which it pretends to promote (i.e. healthy forests, clear skies, no child left behind, uniter not a divider, etc.). The pattern is clear and unmistakable.

It's not class warfare when someone simply accuses another of practicing it for political gain. It is class warfare when one actually advocates and implements policies which benefit one class over the other without fail, each and every time (see jobs, wages, overtime laws, health insurance, health care, environment, minimum wage, bankruptcy laws, pension renegging, etc.). The list could go on and on. They have been able to do this with the assistance of their bought-and-paid-for corporate ass-kissers in the republican controlled congress.

There is no mistaking where the Cheneyburton retrocons fall on this subject. They land smack dab in the middle of the early 1900's in relation to working families, the conditions they are subjected to, and the unbridled power and influence of those who control business and wealth in this nation.

That is, and always has been, the dark side of our great country. Unfortunately, those forces have somehow managed to grab us by the nutsacks once again.

I hope your not expecting me to travel this tangent with you. I just want a little tax money back because of how bad the local school systems have failed.

I was pro public schools until I came to Georgia. Now I realize the poor and broke are the ones most hurt by the current system developed by your own beloved Democratic visionaries. The wealthy are the only ones that benefit under the status quo.

[Chief Faithful]

Dude, you are talking to penchief. He hasn't just bought into the mentality, he is a major shareholder and has a seat on the board of directors.

Still he is a moderate compared to some. Have you read the posts from Hamas Jenkins? Wow!

[penchief]

I hope your not expecting me to travel this tangent with you. I just want a little tax money back because of how bad the local school systems have failed.

I was pro public schools until I came to Georgia. Now I realize the poor and broke are the ones most hurt by the current system developed by your own beloved Democratic visionaries. The wealthy are the only ones that benefit under the status quo.

Public schools are not going to get better by draining funds from the public system for the purpose of redistributing those funds to private schools if those who don't currently benefit from private schools will still not be able to benefit from private schools.

IMO, the proposed voucher system has not provided enough detail to assauge my concerns that the voucher proposals are nothing more than another typical neocon "make it sound good" smoke screen for their true agenda.

If improving education is their sincere motive then the proof would be in the pudding. The details would offer the solution to what ails the public school system. But they don't. No matter what they're proposing, this administration continues to speak in vague generalities intended to appeal to our basic sense of decency (sprinkled with a nice dose of self-interest) without offering substantive solutions.

Look at everything they've touched. From Iraq to Medicare. They use high-minded rhetoric but screw the pooch every inch of the way (not to mention the general public). And it's not because they don't care. It's because they're lying about what they care about.

When it comes to education, what they care about is stifling federal spending and not about improving the level of education for everyone or ensuring equal access to quality education. If the latter were more important, their proposals would realistically reflect that sincere concern.

By the way, you never did answer the questions that I had about the details of their voucher proposals.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Still he is a moderate compared to some. Have you read the posts from Hamas Jenkins? Wow!

Telling it like it is. :D