It's the 33rd Anniverary of Roe V Wade

[gblowfish]

It's the 33rd anniverary of Roe V Wade:
http://tinyurl.com/bezyv
Thought this story on where is Jane Roe now was interesting:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/21/mccorvey.interview/

[Duck Dog]

Liberals raise your glass and toast with me. Here is to all the babies we murdered in the past 33 years, and here's to an even better next 33 years.

Cheers!

[patteeu]

What would be really interesting would be to find the girl to which Norma McCorvey gave birth (and subsequently gave up for adoption). It would be interesting to see what she thinks of the landmark case and what she has done with her life.

[tiptap]

Just remember that for every full term baby, there are 3 to 4 natural abortions of diploid cells. We aren't a very fertile species.

[Bowser]

I knew a girl back in my Air Force days who pretty much used abortion as birth control. In a span of two years, she had AT LEAST four abortions. She was a beautiful girl, but had shit for brains. Absolutely refused to use protection or go on the pill, and I never understood why. I think she ended up having two kids by two different fathers. My roomie was hot after her the whole time, and she finally gave in when both dads didn't want anything to do with her or their kids. Dummy.

[Bowser]

Liberals raise your glass and toast with me. Here is to all the babies we murdered in the past 33 years, and here's to an even better next 33 years.

Cheers!

One of your worst efforts yet.

[Cochise]

Over 45,951,133 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm) served

That's about equal to the combined current populations of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelpha, Phoenix, San Diego, San Antonio, Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, San Fransisco, Columbus OH, Austin, Memphis, Baltimore, Fort Worth, Charlotte, El Paso, Milwaukee, Seattle, Boston, Denver, Louisville, Washington D.C., Nashville, Las Vegas, Portland, Oklahoma City, Tuscon, Albuquerque, Long Beach, New Orleans, Cleveland, Fresno, Sacramento, and Kansas City.

[redbrian]

Just finished a book (Freak Economics), in which the author argues the reduction in crime is due to roe v wade and all of the resulting abortions.

Seems the vast majority of abortions in the US are performed on uneducated urban single girls who produce most of the children who grow up to be criminals.

His arguments and facts are very convincing, he also states that the majority of abortions are used as birth control.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Over 45,951,133 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm) served

That's about equal to the combined current populations of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelpha, Phoenix, San Diego, San Antonio, Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, San Fransisco, Columbus OH, Austin, Memphis, Baltimore, Fort Worth, Charlotte, El Paso, Milwaukee, Seattle, Boston, Denver, Louisville, Washington D.C., Nashville, Las Vegas, Portland, Oklahoma City, Tuscon, Albuquerque, Long Beach, New Orleans, Cleveland, Fresno, Sacramento, and Kansas City.I think I would consider myself anti-abortion, but I am curious about what we'd do with that many more people...

[SLAG]

I know many people will tell us...

"Why do you care about abortion? your a man"

I can understand where they come from yet I still have strong Feelings on the Issue.

Murder of anyone at any time is wrong.
(Abortion, Euthinasia, Death Penalty)

I will Pray for the lost souls of this horrible atrocity

That is all I have to say

[SLAG]

I think I would consider myself anti-abortion, but I am curious about what we'd do with that many more people...


I wonder if one of those people could have gotten us to a SuperBowl Over Carl

:hmmm:

[Adept Havelock]

I wonder if one of those people could have gotten us to a SuperBowl Over Carl

:hmmm:


Yes, and for every Einstein that we won't get, we've dodged another Stalin. For every Mozart that remains unborn, we go without another Andy Dick. Your point?

[PunkinDrublic]

Liberals raise your glass and toast with me. Here is to all the babies we murdered in the past 33 years, and here's to an even better next 33 years.

Cheers!

Here's to all the abortion clinic bombers and right wing lunatics who show up to large events with giant pictures of aborted fetuses. Nice to see your efforts have made a difference.

[CRONUS]

Liberals raise your glass and toast with me. Here is to all the babies we murdered in the past 33 years, and here's to an even better next 33 years.

Cheers!Everyone raise your glass to no more back alley abortions, to the end of coat hanger puncturing the fetus and ripping the uterus lining, to women not dying from infections from unsterile and unsafe procedures.:toast:

[go bowe]

Everyone raise your glass to no more back alley abortions, to the end of coat hanger puncturing the fetus and ripping the uterus lining, to women not dying from infections from unsterile and unsafe procedures.:toast:dying from infections if they didn't bleed to death first...

i remember those days all too well...

i have a special interest in the subject because my first wife had been raped before i knew her and she had an illegal abortion to terminate the pregnancy...

abortions involve hard decisions which are best left to the woman involved to resolve in her own way...

[Bowser]

dying from infections if they didn't bleed to death first...

i remember those days all too well...

i have a special interest in the subject because my first wife had been raped before i knew her and she had an illegal abortion to terminate the pregnancy...

abortions involve hard decisions which are best left to the woman involved to resolve in her own way...

Well said.

[patteeu]

Speaking of Roe v Wade:

SD Legislature To Consider Abortion Ban (http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail2817.cfm?Id=0,45410)

In the next six weeks, South Dakota lawmakers will decide whether to make abortion a crime.

A bill that would ban abortion in the state will be introduced within the next two days.

The bill will be called the Woman's Health and Life Protection Act. It will ban abortion, but won't prosecute a doctor who performs one to save a woman's life.

And the lawmaker who's introducing the bill says he thinks now is the right time to try and over-turn Roe vs Wade.

Rep. Roger Hunt says, "Abortion should be banned."

Those four words will likely lead to many others in the South Dakota House and Senate as lawmakers will decide whether to criminalize abortion in the state. The bill's supporters are using findings from a controversial abortion task force report recently given to the legislature.

Hunt says, "DNA testing now can establish the unborn child has a separate and distinct personality from the mother. We know a lot more about post-abortion harm to the mother."

The legislature debated a similar bill two years ago, but Governor Mike Rounds vetoed it because of concerns over some technicalities.

Hunt says, "We have made those corrections to the bill."

Sunday, Hunt and other anti-abortion advocates held an event promoting their legislation. They say now is the time to pass it, because other states are considering similar bills and because with new Chief Justice John Roberts, and possibly Samuel Alito, the US Supreme Court is changing.

Hunt says, "Two very solid, we feel, pro-life candidates. Again you never know but based on their testimony to the senate we feel they're good candidates."

Hunt says he thinks enough other lawmakers support the bill for it to pass, but he still thinks the decision will be a close one.

He says, "I learned a long time ago the only time you really count the votes is when you're taking the votes."

Hunt will also introduce two other bills this week. One is meant to ensure doctors explain the risks of an abortion to a woman is writing. The other deals with sex education and says school districts need to include principles in their curriculums dealing with abstinence and personal responsibilities.

[Baby Lee]

abortions involve hard decisions which are best left to the woman involved to resolve in her own way...
I can understand your reasonable bias, but are you really suggesting every abortion is a hard decision and every woman who has an abortion is the best situated and informed decision-maker?

[Old Codger]

I'm curious as to how many people who protest the pro-choice stance have an adopted child in their house..? Seems kind of hypocritical to me if not.
JMO

[patteeu]

I'm curious as to how many people who protest the pro-choice stance have an adopted child in their house..? Seems kind of hypocritical to me if not.
JMO

No, hypocritical would be if you publicly support the pro-choice stance (1) while privately seeking an abortion yourself. What you describe isn't hypocrisy at all.

Is it hypocrisy to criticize the teenagers who beat the homeless guy to death in Florida a couple of weeks ago if you don't first invite a homeless guy to live in your basement or on your front lawn? :shake:



----------
(1) This is a mistake and should have been "oppose the pro-choice stance" as Bowser points out.

[Bowser]

No, hypocritical would be if you publicly support the pro-choice stance while privately seeking an abortion yourself. What you describe isn't hypocrisy at all.



I'm going to assume you meant to say pro-life.

[mlyonsd]

Speaking of Roe v Wade:

Hunt says, "DNA testing now can establish the unborn child has a separate and distinct personality from the mother. We know a lot more about post-abortion harm to the mother."



Could somebody explain to me WTF that means?

[patteeu]

I'm going to assume you meant to say pro-life.

Yes, thank you for the correction. :thumb: I meant to say "oppose the pro-choice stance" in order to parallel Old Codger's statement.

[tiptap]

Hunt says, "DNA testing now can establish the unborn child has a separate and distinct personality from the mother. We know a lot more about post-abortion harm to the mother."


This is crap. The size of the brain doubles in the last trimester. Before that the brain is undifferentiated in the way a newborn will be.

This underdevelopment is why premature babies have such a higher incident of neurological problem.

So while one could always say the genetics were unique for a fetus (moms a girl and the fetus is XY) Personality, as a province of the brain, (unless we go ahead and state the obvious that this is religiously motivated by believing a soul, personality, is there at conception) isn't formulated at all.

[go bowe]

I can understand your reasonable bias, but are you really suggesting every abortion is a hard decision and every woman who has an abortion is the best situated and informed decision-maker?as a rule, with numerous exceptions, i think that women contemplating whether or not to terminate their pregnancy find that the decision is a very hard one to make...

and, no, i'm not suggesting that women on crack, or who are otherwise incapable of any rational thought view abortion as any more than a form of birth control...

as far as being best-situated, i've always felt that a woman is best situated to make decisions about her own body...

best informed or not, women are the decision makers concerning their own medical treatment in every other area, and they should be who decides what is done to treat her condition...

yes, condition...

pregnancy is a medical condition, imo, and should be treated as such...

fwiw, my sisters are very conservative religious people and both support abortion rights...

despite their firm religious beliefs that abortion is wrong, they don't believe in imposing their religious beliefs on other people and have always felt that abortion is the woman's decision and no-one else's...

these are women in their sixties, fwiw...

[go bowe]

Hunt says, "DNA testing now can establish the unborn child has a separate and distinct personality from the mother. We know a lot more about post-abortion harm to the mother."


This is crap. The size of the brain doubles in the last trimester. Before that the brain is undifferentiated in the way a newborn will be.

This underdevelopment is why premature babies have such a higher incident of neurological problem.

So while one could always say the genetics were unique for a fetus (moms a girl and the fetus is XY) Personality, as a province of the brain, (unless we go ahead and state the obvious that this is religiously motivated by believing a soul, personality, is there at conception) isn't formulated at all.what are you, some kind of scientific type?

you seem to know alot about subjects involving medical/life science...

and, btw, i really appreciate the information you share with us...

one of the things that i like most about the planet is that there is such a range of expertise and viewpoint...

i can't tell you how much i have learned from the planet...

(although i haven't quite learned how to use the shift key and my punctuation is a little odd... :D )

[Chief Henry]

Which Senator(s) or congressman(s) wrote the bill to allow abortions?

[mlyonsd]

fwiw, my sisters are very conservative religious people and both support abortion rights...


IMHO abortion is not a religious issue. At least that's the way it is with me.

It's more the rights of a human being that has no say in the matter. Yes, of course the argument then turns to when is a fetus really a human being. I'm not here to argue that fact. I just believe that giving the decision to the person that in most cases already made a bad choice over the one that hasn't had a choice at all is wrong.

I think both sides of the issue definitely have valid points. That's why the issue is so divisive.

I've come to the conclusion that Roe is predetermined law and a precedent. As such I don't see the need for it to be overturned. That being said I don't think Roe went so far as to say states can't write certain laws dealing with how abortion is administered. For instance I believe a state has the right to enforce the notification of a minor's parents before the procedure is done. IMO Roe doesn't speak to that sort of question.

I will say the only serious threat to Roe I can see on the horizon will be if advances in the medical and scientific fields prove beyond a doubt to the majority of Americans that the fetus is really closer to the human being end of the spectrum than just some blob of cells. Until that time I don't think Roe is in jeopardy.

[Pitt Gorilla]

as a rule, with numerous exceptions, i think that women contemplating whether or not to terminate their pregnancy find that the decision is a very hard one to make...

and, no, i'm not suggesting that women on crack, or who are otherwise incapable of any rational thought view abortion as any more than a form of birth control...

as far as being best-situated, i've always felt that a woman is best situated to make decisions about her own body...

best informed or not, women are the decision makers concerning their own medical treatment in every other area, and they should be who decides what is done to treat her condition...

yes, condition...

pregnancy is a medical condition, imo, and should be treated as such...

fwiw, my sisters are very conservative religious people and both support abortion rights...

despite their firm religious beliefs that abortion is wrong, they don't believe in imposing their religious beliefs on other people and have always felt that abortion is the woman's decision and no-one else's...

these are women in their sixties, fwiw...Hey, some people simply prefer the government make their decisions for them.

[patteeu]

Pitt Gorilla - Do you really not understand that, for the most part, pro-lifers think that in addition to the pregnant woman, there is an innocent, defenseless human being involved? Your last comment must surely be another bit of vacant sarcasm that is the abortion-issue equivalent of saying that people who oppose the war in Iraq hate America.

In fact, I bet there are more people in the anti-Iraq-War crowd who actually do hate America than there are in the pro-life crowd who "simply prefer the government make their decisions for them."

[Duck Dog]

abortions involve hard decisions which are best left to the woman involved to resolve in her own way...


You mean like the slut Bowser was quick to mention that used abortion as a birth control pill?

I realize there are women out there who need to have them. I also believe in the womans right to choose what is best for her. I also understand that that they need to be done by doctors and not in back rooms.

What I don't agree with is a system that allows women to use abortion as a means of birth control. However, I suppose it's a means of population control. And I know for sure I'd rather not pay for the welfare.

[Boozer]

In fact, I bet there are more people in the anti-Iraq-War crowd who actually do hate America than there are in the pro-life crowd who "simply prefer the government make their decisions for them."

I don't know that he's too far off. I'm currently digging around for the link, but I recently read that those who are pro-life (or anti-abortion) aren't particularly less likely to have an abortion than pro-choicers. If that's not a case of "please kind sir, make my decisions for me," I don't know what is.

It's possible I misread the stat, I'll let you know what I (don't) find.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Pitt Gorilla - Do you really not understand that, for the most part, pro-lifers think that in addition to the pregnant woman, there is an innocent, defenseless human being involved? Your last comment must surely be another bit of vacant sarcasm that is the abortion-issue equivalent of saying that people who oppose the war in Iraq hate America.

In fact, I bet there are more people in the anti-Iraq-War crowd who actually do hate America than there are in the pro-life crowd who "simply prefer the government make their decisions for them."Did you even bother to read my post? I said "some people." Besides, do you really not understand that I am pro-life? I'm just a little leary of "conservatives" who want more govenment control over their lives. I knew you were a shill, but this is just silly.

[Boozer]

I don't know that he's too far off. I'm currently digging around for the link, but I recently read that those who are pro-life (or anti-abortion) aren't particularly less likely to have an abortion than pro-choicers. If that's not a case of "please kind sir, make my decisions for me," I don't know what is.

It's possible I misread the stat, I'll let you know what I (don't) find.

Found it, although it's not a stat but just the assertion of the stat by a non-anonymous blog commenter. So take it at extremely diminished face value.

http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2005/12/of_essays_and_g.html#more

No one would happen to be privy to that statistic, would he?

[Baby Lee]

Did you even bother to read my post? I said "some people." Besides, do you really not understand that I am pro-life? I'm just a little leary of "conservatives" who want more govenment control over their lives. I knew you were a shill, but this is just silly.
To be fair 'some people' is quite ambiguous. And using it in reference to the arguments against the pro-life position lends itself to the assumption that you were referring to all of those who hold it.

[patteeu]

Did you even bother to read my post? I said "some people." Besides, do you really not understand that I am pro-life? I'm just a little leary of "conservatives" who want more govenment control over their lives. I knew you were a shill, but this is just silly.

If I believed that what you meant by "some people" was that some small percentage of pro-lifers are pro-life because they "simply prefer the government make their decisions for them" instead of because they believe that the fetus is an innocent human being that deserves protection then I'd apologize, but I don't. And I guess that if what you mean by "shill" is someone who is willing to call you out when you say something dumb, I plead guilty. FWIW, I'm agnostic on the moral issue of abortion.

I'm not sure how I was supposed to understand your personal position on the issue from what you've posted here, but I don't think it's particularly relevant unless you were talking specifically about yourself in that post.

[patteeu]

Found it, although it's not a stat but just the assertion of the stat by a non-anonymous blog commenter. So take it at extremely diminished face value.

http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2005/12/of_essays_and_g.html#more

No one would happen to be privy to that statistic, would he?

That's interesting if true. Something tells me that that wasn't what Pitt Gorilla was thinking though. I could be wrong, but I don't believe it.

It's certainly believable that some people with sincerely-held, pro-life beliefs could be weak in the face of temptation (i.e. legal, privacy-protected abortion), it wouldn't be the first time that believers were also sinners. But there are other possibilities that could lead to misleading statistics. The blogger makes a couple of those counterarguments. I'd add the possibility that some people have abortions before they become pro-life (e.g. Norma McCorvey) and unless these conversion cases are somehow eliminated from the data, the statistics could give the wrong impression.

[Boozer]

That's interesting if true. Something tells me that that wasn't what Pitt Gorilla was thinking though. I could be wrong, but I don't believe it.

It's certainly believable that some people with sincerely-held, pro-life beliefs could be weak in the face of temptation (i.e. legal, privacy-protected abortion), it wouldn't be the first time that believers were also sinners. But there are other possibilities that could lead to misleading statistics. The blogger makes a couple of those counterarguments. I'd add the possibility that some people have abortions before they become pro-life (e.g. Norma McCorvey) and unless these conversion cases are somehow eliminated from the data, the statistics could give the wrong impression.

I'd quibble with the removal of "conversion cases" from the data. That would inaccurately skew the data the other way, because it would eliminate *all* "conversion cases" from the subset of "pro-lifers who have abortions," when some of them will undoubtedly have an abortion (or abortions) again. That is, it's highly unlikey that no "conversion cases'" transformation was only temporary or only happens during convenient periods of their lives

[patteeu]

I'd quibble with the removal of "conversion cases" from the data. That would inaccurately skew the data the other way, because it would eliminate *all* "conversion cases" from the subset of "pro-lifers who have abortions," when some of them will undoubtedly have an abortion (or abortions) again. That is, it's highly unlikey that no "conversion cases'" transformation was only temporary or only happens during convenient periods of their lives

What I meant (and I can see that I was unclear about it) is that data points representing abortions that take place prior to a conversion from pro-choice to pro-life from pro-choice to pro-life shouldn't count as a case of a pro-lifer who hypocritically has an abortion. I would agree that data points representing abortions that take place after a conversion to pro-life should remain.

[Pitt Gorilla]

And I guess that if what you mean by "shill" is someone who is willing to call you out when you say something dumb, I plead guilty. FWIW, I'm agnostic on the moral issue of abortion.

Which definition of shill leads you to believe that is what I meant? BTW, where did I say something "dumb?"

Edit: Most of what I say is pretty dumb, so that last question might be difficult to answer. :)

[Pitt Gorilla]

Pat,
A quick search netted the following:

"I think Alito is a fine candidate. I also don't see the court overturning Roe, at least for quite a while.

Personally, I'm a bit torn on the Roe issue. I think abortion is morally "wrong" and don't understand how anyone would even consider a partial-birth procedure. At the same time, I'm sickened by the current direction of our country concerning personal rights. I also don't want to think about where the RWNJs would turn next, after Roe was overturned."

[Boozer]

What I meant (and I can see that I was unclear about it) is that data points representing abortions that take place prior to a conversion from pro-choice to pro-life from pro-choice to pro-life shouldn't count as a case of a pro-lifer who hypocritically has an abortion. I would agree that data points representing abortions that take place after a conversion to pro-life should remain.

And my point, which I was likewise unclear about, is that it's impossible to know whether someone who has had an abortion in the past has had a "genuine conversion" because they might have an abortion in the future.

The nature of the data (human subjects), and the fact that we can't predict the future, makes it very difficult to account for these changes. There's good reason to doubt that such "conversions" are permanent, however. For example, born again Christians (by definition, people who have chosen to make a radical life change) are just as likely to get divorced as the general population. Divorce, of course, is antithetical to Christianity. I don't see any reason why a "conversion to pro-life" would be any different.

[patteeu]

Pat,
A quick search netted the following:

"I think Alito is a fine candidate. I also don't see the court overturning Roe, at least for quite a while.

Personally, I'm a bit torn on the Roe issue. I think abortion is morally "wrong" and don't understand how anyone would even consider a partial-birth procedure. At the same time, I'm sickened by the current direction of our country concerning personal rights. I also don't want to think about where the RWNJs would turn next, after Roe was overturned."

OK, I'll write that down in my log book. Pitt Gorilla is torn on Roe. Abortion is morally wrong but you're worried about how far the jurisprudential pendulum will swing. Noted.

[patteeu]

And my point, which I was likewise unclear about, is that it's impossible to know whether someone who has had an abortion in the past has had a "genuine conversion" because they might have an abortion in the future.

The nature of the data (human subjects), and the fact that we can't predict the future, makes it very difficult to account for these changes. There's good reason to doubt that such "conversions" are permanent, however. For example, born again Christians (by definition, people who have chosen to make a radical life change) are just as likely to get divorced as the general population. Divorce, of course, is antithetical to Christianity. I don't see any reason why a "conversion to pro-life" would be any different.

OK, I get you.

[tiptap]

1973 pro life comic

http://www.ep.tc/junior/

pro choice comic 1973

http://www.ep.tc/eve/


rated R for graphic content

[Garcia Bronco]

No governement has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her uterus. How any conservative could actually be for this kind on legislation is beyond me. It's the most invasive type of government there is.

[Bowser]

1973 pro life comic

http://www.ep.tc/junior/



Nothing quite as good as comparing abortion to Nazi Germany, unless of course you use the ugly side of religion to make a woman feel like her eternal soul is at risk.

[banyon]

"....Let's all talk about the murder of unborn baby children and see if we can't all coalesce into one good belly laugh...." Bill Hicks

[MarcBulger]

If I go to Heavan I hope one of the first people I see is an angel of an unborn aborted baby he/she will have nothing but forgivness in their heart while the mother and father of the unborn child will have nothing but shame.

[tiptap]

If I go to Heavan I hope one of the first people I see is an angel of an unborn aborted baby he/she will have nothing but forgivness in their heart while the mother and father of the unborn child will have nothing but shame.

And exactly what will this person look like? I'm not going to have to change diapers in heaven am I? For every person born, there are 3 to 4 natural, spontaneous abortions. Most of those come very early in the gestational age of the embryo. So are these little goo things going to be buzzing around like mosquitoes. Or am I going to be introduced to 6 to 8 brother and sisters who know nothing of earth?

[CHIEF4EVER]

I'm curious as to how many people who protest the pro-choice stance have an adopted child in their house..? Seems kind of hypocritical to me if not.
JMO

As a matter of fact sir, I DO. I adopted my son and he is treated as one of my own because that is the way I feel about him. At the risk of being flamed by the "lefties" I can only say that although women have say over their own bodies, WHO IS THE ADVOCATE FOR THE CHILD? Will one of you leftie lawyers raise his or her hand and defend THE CHILD? Pro Bono even? The hypocrisy starts with those who view children as "fetuses" or "problems" that "need to be resolved". Why is it that a bad decision by an adult should result in the murder of an unborn child? The same azzholes who decry the molestation of a young child and think that the perp should be incarcerated or get the death penalty think it is perfectly OK to murder one who isn't born yet in the name of "a woman's right to decide". End of rant.