PDA

View Full Version : NFL Draft Countdown Has Added Round 2


jspchief
02-08-2006, 08:54 AM
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html

NFL Draft Countdown has added the second round to their mock. They have us taking a dude I know absolutely nothing about.

Chiefnj
02-08-2006, 09:02 AM
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html

NFL Draft Countdown has added the second round to their mock. They have us taking a dude I know absolutely nothing about.

Unfortunately, it makes sense. KC tends to gamble and reach with the 2nd round pick.

Looking at that mock, I'd take the guard from Georgia, Giles, and keep Welbourne at RT.

Mecca
02-08-2006, 09:19 AM
I looked at this mock earlier........I don't like it. I'd go Watson and Gilles or Kiwanuka and Gilles if the draft had gone that way.

htismaqe
02-08-2006, 09:27 AM
I really don't want Kiwi at all. I'm hoping somebody falls in love with him that picks before us.

jspchief
02-08-2006, 09:31 AM
Unfortunately, it makes sense. KC tends to gamble and reach with the 2nd round pick.

Looking at that mock, I'd take the guard from Georgia, Giles, and keep Welbourne at RT.Agree.

BigChiefFan
02-08-2006, 10:09 AM
Bunkley over Watson-that's laughable in my book. Bunkley has talent, but he isn't a better DT than Watson.

ChiefsOne
02-08-2006, 10:10 AM
Danieal Manning
CB | Abilene Christian
This is a team that needs help in the secondary and the #1 sleeper could play CB or S.

Just what we need, another CB/S :cuss:

Chiefnj
02-08-2006, 10:23 AM
Bunkley over Watson-that's laughable in my book. Bunkley has talent, but he isn't a better DT than Watson.

Why? At least he gives the effort game-in, game-out.

htismaqe
02-08-2006, 10:23 AM
Bunkley over Watson-that's laughable in my book. Bunkley has talent, but he isn't a better DT than Watson.

From down to down, Bunkly IS better than Watson.

Watson's gonna have to perform like this AFTER he gets his big payday before he can be considered a legit force.

Chiefnj
02-08-2006, 10:37 AM
I suggested last year that KC give permission to Sims to bulk up. Let him add 20lbs and be the guy to try to clog the interior and then draft a Bunkley or Wroten.

Dunit35
02-08-2006, 10:48 AM
Never heard of this 2nd round pick.

Mr. Laz
02-08-2006, 10:57 AM
Bunkley over Watson-that's laughable in my book. Bunkley has talent, but he isn't a better DT than Watson.
i'm not sure i want Watson in the 1st round regardless


big risk with that pick...


Seems to me that Watson is a guy that if you put him in a good defense with good defensive leadership he will be just fine. Because the defense will be setup on pride of accomplishment. He will step in line and follow the rest.

but ... if you put him in a struggling defense :shrug: A defense that struggles and is trying to find an identity. Watson seems like a guy who would give up or coast during that 15 play drive when the defense can't seem to get off the field.


would love him in the 2nd round because of his potiential but the 1st round is a huge risk.

RedThat
02-08-2006, 11:28 AM
You know what makes me laugh about these mock drafts?

I don't know if it's just me, but every year I here the same frigg'n thing. KC needs to draft a CB, to improve their pass defense because it was horrid, yadda, yadda, yadda. BS :rolleyes:

But we did add a top flight CB in FA last year, and it got us the same old pass defense.

It all starts upfront first. They underlook the fact that we need Defensive Lineman. Not to say we don't need secondary help, I think we could use a FS.
But these guys gotta get their facts straight, our Defensive line is possibly the absolute worst in the NFL. We have some talent in the secondary, it doesn't make sense to draft a CB?

With this being said, I would absolutely puke if this team had this mock draft.

Bunkley in the 1st? No way. They have us taking Bunkley before Watson? Doesn't make sense.

I think it's cool we draft a DB in 2nd, but not a CB. Safety would be an ideal choice. I'd like to see this team snag Cedric Griffin in the 2nd round.

Tribal Warfare
02-08-2006, 11:49 AM
i'm not sure i want Watson in the 1st round



My feeling is that KC will get Watson, I had the same intuitive feeling about DJ. :D

Mr. Laz
02-08-2006, 11:56 AM
You know what makes me laugh about these mock drafts?

I don't know if it's just me, but every year I here the same frigg'n thing. KC needs to draft a CB, to improve their pass defense because it was horrid, yadda, yadda, yadda. BS :rolleyes:

But we did add a top flight CB in FA last year, and it got us the same old pass defense.

It all starts upfront first. They underlook the fact that we need Defensive Lineman. Not to say we don't need secondary help, I think we could use a FS.
But these guys gotta get their facts straight, our Defensive line is possibly the absolute worst in the NFL. We have some talent in the secondary, it doesn't make sense to draft a CB?

With this being said, I would absolutely puke if this team had this mock draft.

Bunkley in the 1st? No way. They have us taking Bunkley before Watson? Doesn't make sense.

I think it's cool we draft a DB in 2nd, but not a CB. Safety would be an ideal choice. I'd like to see this team snag Cedric Griffin in the 2nd round.
while i undertand your point about the defensive line ... to be honest we have never really fixed our secondary.

our defensive coaching have never been consistent in their scheme etc either.


i think the coaching part may be the most serious flaw

BigChiefFan
02-08-2006, 12:19 PM
The Pats and now Steelers have shown that the front 7 are what teams need to be dominate. It's always been this way. Look at the teams that made the playoffs and look at their front 7.

RedThat
02-08-2006, 12:45 PM
while i undertand your point about the defensive line ... to be honest we have never really fixed our secondary.

our defensive coaching have never been consistent in their scheme etc either.


i think the coaching part may be the most serious flaw

I agree. It could be a good thing that Giunta is gone.

The secondary does have seem to have talent though, Surtain is a good player, and Knight is ok.

Warfield on the other hand, Im not all that crazy about. But, to say the least he is not terrible, so thats a good sign. He may do well with a defensive line in front of him.

Wesley is the glaring weakness in our secondary. That position, FS needs improvement, unless, of course, Wesley improves, and im not depending on that to happen.

*There is talent there, Surtain and Knight are guys you build around. Maybe adding Gibbs to our coaching staff will be a good choice?

:shrug:

HolmeZz
02-08-2006, 01:12 PM
Bunkley's a better player than Watson. I think more of the question is whether you want a smaller DT who can create havoc like Bunkley or a big space eater like Watson.

BigChiefFan
02-08-2006, 01:28 PM
Bunkley's a better player than Watson. I think more of the question is whether you want a smaller DT who can create havoc like Bunkley or a big space eater like Watson.
I believe Bunkley is more athletic than Watson, but I don't believe he is more talented. That being said, I agree with your assessment in the players being different type of DTs. We have plenty of undertackles, what we have been lacking is the mammoth NT, like Watson. Some question Watson's work-ethic, but not many question his talent. I believe he has been given a bad rap and more recent interviews with Watson sound as if he committed to giving his all.

Tribal Warfare
02-08-2006, 01:29 PM
Bunkley's a better player than Watson. I think more of the question is whether you want a smaller DT who can create havoc like Bunkley or a big space eater like Watson.


I have to disagree with assesment of Watson and Bunkley. In The Senior Bowl, Watson was dominating, no RB got around him, and he freed up fellow linemen to make big time plays. Bunkley on the otherhand ,was pushed around and neutralized.

Chiefnj
02-08-2006, 02:02 PM
I believe Bunkley is more athletic than Watson, but I don't believe he is more talented. That being said, I agree with your assessment in the players being different type of DTs. We have plenty of undertackles, what we have been lacking is the mammoth NT, like Watson. Some question Watson's work-ethic, but not many question his talent. I believe he has been given a bad rap and more recent interviews with Watson sound as if he committed to giving his all.

The only bad rap that has been given to Watson was caused by his own lack of effort during his collegiate career. He isn't that talented. He has bulk. That bulk enabled him to beat on smaller guys in college. He won't be able to do that in the pros.

If people want to disregard several seasons of football for a week of practice and a handful of series of plays during the senior bowl, then fine you can do that. Just be aware of what you want and what you might be getting.

htismaqe
02-08-2006, 02:50 PM
The Pats and now Steelers have shown that the front 7 are what teams need to be dominate. It's always been this way. Look at the teams that made the playoffs and look at their front 7.

And look at their safeties.

All of them have at least one playmaker back there. We have none.

htismaqe
02-08-2006, 02:50 PM
I have to disagree with assesment of Watson and Bunkley. In The Senior Bowl, Watson was dominating, no RB got around him, and he freed up fellow linemen to make big time plays. Bunkley on the otherhand ,was pushed around and neutralized.

Watson was dominating and said all the right things because he knows he's auditioning for several million dollars right now.

Of course he looks great now.

BigChiefFan
02-08-2006, 03:22 PM
Watson was dominating and said all the right things because he knows he's auditioning for several million dollars right now.

Of course he looks great now.
Bunkley is auditioning, TOO.


Next.

htismaqe
02-08-2006, 04:00 PM
Bunkley is auditioning, TOO.

Next.

Bunkley played every down of his ENTIRE college career with a non-stop motor.

Watson disappeared for large portions of entire games because he didn't feel like trying.

Next.

Tribal Warfare
02-09-2006, 07:54 AM
Bunkley played every down of his ENTIRE college career with a non-stop motor.

Watson disappeared for large portions of entire games because he didn't feel like trying.

Next.


Parker, I've a good feeling about this guy, he could be KC's Ted Washington or Kris Jenkins type that KC's been missing since Dan Saleamua.

jspchief
02-09-2006, 08:05 AM
If people want to disregard several seasons of football for a week of practice and a handful of series of plays during the senior bowl, then fine you can do that. Yep. It's like saying Plummer is a good QB because he had one good year.

At least for me, it's hard to ignore the entire body of work in favor of just a small sample.

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 08:12 AM
Parker, I've a good feeling about this guy, he could be KC's Ted Washington or Kris Jenkins type that KC's been missing since Dan Saleamua.

He absolutely could be.

But right now, he's much closer to Chester McGlockton than Ted Washington...

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 09:10 AM
He absolutely could be.

But right now, he's much closer to Chester McGlockton than Ted Washington...


I understand that some of you have questions about Gabe Watson. I do, too. I've looked over the last few posts and see what you all are saying about an entire collegiate career and there is certainly ALOT of merit to that. However, the one position, that you can get by without being super athletic and just be a mammoth boulder is the NT position.

I think some are putting too much emphasis on his stats, instead of what the guy can actually do for a defensive line. He can clog up the middle and STUFF the run. He also commands a double-team, thus freeing up other lineman to get after the QB and HB.

Chiefnj
02-09-2006, 09:26 AM
I understand that some of you have questions about Gabe Watson. I do, too. I've looked over the last few posts and see what you all are saying about an entire collegiate career and there is certainly ALOT of merit to that. However, the one position, that you can get by without being super athletic and just be a mammoth boulder is the NT position.

I think some are putting too much emphasis on his stats, instead of what the guy can actually do for a defensive line. He can clog up the middle and STUFF the run. He also commands a double-team, thus freeing up other lineman to get after the QB and HB.

BS.

Sims, Freeman, Sands. You can't get by with just size alone in the NFL. In college, yes.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 09:35 AM
BS.

Sims, Freeman, Sands. You can't get by with just size alone in the NFL. In college, yes.
Are you calling B.S. on this?...

"I think some are putting too much emphasis on his stats, instead of what the guy can actually do for a defensive line. He can clog up the middle and STUFF the run. He also commands a double-team, thus freeing up other lineman to get after the QB and HB."

I believe what I said is true about Gabe Watson.

Chiefnj
02-09-2006, 10:06 AM
Are you calling B.S. on this?...

"I think some are putting too much emphasis on his stats, instead of what the guy can actually do for a defensive line. He can clog up the middle and STUFF the run. He also commands a double-team, thus freeing up other lineman to get after the QB and HB."

I believe what I said is true about Gabe Watson.

I'm calling BS on the theory that at DT you can get away with a big guy who isn't athletic or doesn't try all the time. It isn't true or else Siavii would be a starter and all the Watson talk would be nonexistent.

I'm done debating Gabe Watson. If I were a GM I wouldn't use a first round pick on a player that takes plays off.

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 10:37 AM
I understand that some of you have questions about Gabe Watson. I do, too. I've looked over the last few posts and see what you all are saying about an entire collegiate career and there is certainly ALOT of merit to that. However, the one position, that you can get by without being super athletic and just be a mammoth boulder is the NT position.

I think some are putting too much emphasis on his stats, instead of what the guy can actually do for a defensive line. He can clog up the middle and STUFF the run. He also commands a double-team, thus freeing up other lineman to get after the QB and HB.

You may be able to get by without being super athletic, that's debatable.

But the one sure way to be a BIG BUST at DT in the NFL is to NOT TRY.

My beef with Watson is 100% that he's been notorious for taking plays (hell, sometimes whole drives) off...

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 11:41 AM
You may be able to get by without being super athletic, that's debatable.

But the one sure way to be a BIG BUST at DT in the NFL is to NOT TRY.

My beef with Watson is 100% that he's been notorious for taking plays (hell, sometimes whole drives) off...
I don't think Gabe Watson is lazy. I don't even know how all of that started, maybe because he lost his starting job at one point, but...that is what the issue is, not whether or not the guy is talented. What makes you CERTAIN Watson is LAZY and that he takes plays off? I found an old article on Gabe Watson coming out of High School. Check it out...

Tuesday, August 14
Updated: August 15, 11:19 AM ET

Prospect profile: Gabe Watson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Tom Lemming
Special to ESPN.com



Gabe Watson

It's awfully tough to put together a top 10 list, mainly because one tends to lean towards quarterbacks, running backs and wide receivers. Linemen are usually the forgotten players when it comes to selecting All-American teams, but every now and then there's a player who really stands out and garners accolades simply because he is that good. I believe Gabe Watson (6-4, 334, 4.9) of Southfield, Mich., is certainly that type of player.

He's a two-way tackle who's devastating against the run and shows the agility, quickness and strength to become a very effective pass rusher at defensive tackle in college. However, I believe Watson could become a superstar at offensive guard. When you combine his great size with his super quickness, tremendous strength and unusually good football sense, you've got yourself an All-American waiting to happen.

As a junior Watson totaled 78 tackles, eight QB sacks, one INT and 16 tackles for losses at defensive tackle. He's an exceptional run stopper with good flexibility, outstanding body control and a nose for the ball. He does a good job of taking on two and sometimes three blockers, penetrating and applying pressure on the quarterback.


On offense, he's a dominating run blocker who can bend his knees and stay with his defender until the whistle, an extremely aggressive player who loves to pancake defenders. This year I have not seen a better all-around offensive line prospect. He plays tackle in high school but his size, quickness and ability to pull and trap should make him a dominating guard in college. He bench-presses 405 pounds and in track he has thrown the shot put over 51 feet.

He's the consensus No. 1 player in the state of Michigan and in my mind the top offensive line prospect in the country. A testament to Watson's ability is the fact that he's been offered a scholarship by every school that has come to his high school to watch his film. When I recently met with Watson, he told me that Michigan is his leader, followed closely by Ohio State, Miami (Fla.), Nebraska, Michigan State, FSU, Tennessee and Minnesota. The Wolverines could be tough to beat; however, just about every powerhouse in the country will be giving it their best to land this two-way prep standout.

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 11:50 AM
What makes me think Watson is lazy is watching him play. I watch Michigan play about 6 times a year.

jspchief
02-09-2006, 11:50 AM
I've watched enough Big 10 football to recognize that Watson disappears at times. Sometimes for entire games.

Maybe he'll change in the NFL, but he was very inconsistent in the effort put forth in college.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 12:04 PM
So you guys think he's lazy. I don't think he is lazy. Problem solved.

Chiefnj
02-09-2006, 12:18 PM
The guys who say he's lazy actually watched him this past year on Saturdays. The guy who says he isn't is relying on a high school scouting profile. Enough said.

Tribal Warfare
02-09-2006, 12:28 PM
The guys who say he's lazy actually watched him this past year on Saturdays. The guy who says he isn't is relying on a high school scouting profile. Enough said.


If laziness is what you fear, then the contract could will be back loaded, and incentives based.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 12:29 PM
Looks like some may disagree with you about Gabe Watson...

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Big_Ten/2005_Previews/2005_All_BigTen_team.htm

2005 CFN All-Big Ten Team

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Team P.O.Y.s
Illinois
P S. Weatherford
Indiana
WR James Hardy
Iowa
LB C Greenway
Michigan
DT G. Watson
Michigan State
QB D Stanton
Minnesota
RB L. Maroney Team P.O.Y.s
Northwestern
QB B Basanez
Ohio State
LB A.J. Hawk
Penn State
QB M Robinson
Purdue
DE R Ninkovich
Wisconsin
DE Erasmus
Big Ten Player of the Year
Michael Robinson, QB Penn State
The stats weren't out-of-this-world, but Michael Robinson's leadership, clutch play, and running ability helped take Penn State from good to elite. He finished ninth in the Big Ten in rushing with 11 touchdowns, and threw 16 touchdown passes.

Defensive Player of the Year
A.J. Hawk, LB Ohio State
Iowa's Chad Greenway, and Penn State's Paul Posluszny and Tamba Hali all would be defensive players of the year in just about any other league, but Hawk lived up to all the hype with his steady, sometimes spectacular play finishing the year with 109 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 13 tackles for loss, an interception and two forced fumbles.

Scroll down for the All-Big Ten Team and Top 30 players regardless of position
2004 CFN All-Big Ten Team | 2003 CFN All-Big Ten Team | 2002 CFN All-Big Ten Team | 2001 CFN All-Big Ten Team

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Coach of the year - Joe Paterno, Penn State
Best Big Ten game - Sep 24 - Minn. 42 ... Purdue 35 2OT
Worst Big Ten game - Oct. 22 - Penn State 63 ... Illinois 10
Freshman of the year - Northwestern RB Tyrell Sutton
Best Performance - Oct. 8. Northwestern RB Tyrell Sutton ran 29 times for 244 yards and three touchdowns and caught two passes for nine yards and a score in the 51-48 win over Wisconsin. Wildcat LB Tim McGarigle made 25 tackles.
Biggest Surprise: Penn State. Everyone thought Penn State would be a bowl team thanks to its defense, but no one had a clue the offense would be as efficient as it was leading the way to the Big Ten title and within a fingernail of the national championship.
Biggest Disappointment: Purdue. With everyone returning on defense, no Ohio State or Michigan on the schedule, and an explosive offense, this was Purdue's year to take the Big Ten by storm. Not only didn't it happen, but the Boilermakers didn't go to a bowl game in one of the most puzzling collapses this season.

2005 Collegefootballnews.com All-Big Ten Team

Offense
QB - Michael Robinson, Sr. Penn State
RB - Brian Calhoun, Jr. Wisconsin
RB - Laurence Maroney, Jr. Minnesota
WR - Jason Avant, Sr. Michigan
WR - Santonio Holmes, Jr. Ohio State
TE - Matt Spaeth, Jr. Minnesota
OL - Greg Eslinger, Sr. Minnesota
OL - Mark Setterstrom, Sr. Minnesota
OL - Adam Stenavich, Sr. Michigan
OL - Zach Strief, Sr. Northwestern
OL - Joe Thomas, Jr. Wisconsin
PK - Josh Houston, Sr. Ohio State
KR - Ted Ginn Jr., Soph. Ohio State Defense
DL - Tamba Hali, Sr. Penn State
DL - Mike Kudla, Sr. Ohio State
DL - Rob Ninkovich, Sr. Purdue
DL - Gabe Watson, Sr. Michigan
LB - Chad Greenway, Sr. Iowa
LB - A.J. Hawk, Sr. Sr. Ohio State
LB - Paul Posluszny, Jr. Penn State
DB - Jovon Johnson, Sr. Iowa
DB - Calvin Lowery, Sr. Penn State
DB - Ashton Youboty, Jr. Ohio State
DB - Alan Zemaitis, Sr. Penn State
P - Ken DeBauche, Soph. Wisconsin
PR - Brandon Williams, Sr. Wisconsin

Top 30 players regardless of position
Based on the season the player had
1. QB Michael Robinson, Sr. Penn State
2. LB A.J. Hawk, Sr. Ohio State
3. RB Laurence Maroney, Jr. Minnesota
4. LB Chad Greenway, Sr. Iowa
5. LB Paul Posluszny, Jr. Penn State
6. RB Brian Calhoun, Jr. Wisconsin
7. QB Troy Smith, Jr. Ohio State
8. QB Brett Basanez, Sr. Northwestern
9. RB Tyrell Sutton, Fr. Northwestern
10. DE Tamba Hali, Sr. Penn State
11. RB Albert Young, Soph. Iowa
12. LB Tim McGarilgle, Sr. Northwestern
13. LB Abdul Hodge, Sr. Iowa
14. C Greg Eslinger, Sr. Minnesota
15. CB Alan Zemaitis, Sr. Penn State
16. DT Gabe Watson, Sr. Michigan
17. OT Joe Thomas, Jr. Wisconsin
18. QB Drew Stanton, Sr. Michigan State
19. WR Jason Avant, Sr. Michigan
20. CB Ashton Youboty, Jr. Ohio State
21. WR Santonio Holmes, Jr. Ohio State
22. LB Bobby Carpenter, Sr. Ohio State
23. WR Dorien Bryant, Soph. Purdue
24. WR James Hardy, Fr. Indiana
25. SS Calvin Lowry, Sr. Penn State
26. TE Matt Spaeth, Jr. Minnesota
27. CB Jovon Johnson, Sr. Iowa
28. S Nate Salley, Sr. Ohio State
29. QB Drew Tate, Jr. Iowa
30. QB Chad Henne, Jr. Michigan Top Quarterbacks
1. M. Robinson, PSU
2. Troy Smith, Ohio St
3. Brett Basanez, NW
4. Drew Stanton, MSU
5. Drew Tate, Iowa Top Running Backs
1. L. Maroney, Minnesota
2. Brian Calhoun, Wisc.
3. Tyrell Sutton, NW
4. Albert Young, Iowa
5. Antonio Pittman, OSU
Top Receivers
1. Jason Avant, Michigan
2. Santonio Holmes, OSU
3. Dorien Bryant, Purdue
4. James Hardy, Indiana
5. Brandon Williams, UW Top Offensive Linemen
1. Greg Eslinger, Minn.
2. Joe Thomas, Wisc.
3. M. Setterstrom, Minn.
4. Adam Stenavich, Mich.
5. Zach Strief, Nwestern
Top Defensive Linemen
1. Tamba Hali, Penn State
2. Gabe Watson, Mich.
3. Mike Kudla, Ohio St
4. Rob Ninkovich, Purd.
5. Ken Iwebema, Iowa Top Linebackers
1. A.J. Hawk, Ohio St
2. Chad Greenway, Iowa
3. Paul Posluszny, PSU
4. Tim McGarigle, NW
5. Abdul Hodge, Iowa
Top Defensive Backs
1. Alan Zemaitis, PSU
2. Ashton Youboty, OSU
3. Calvin Lowry, PSU
4. Jovon Johnson, Iowa
5. Nate Salley, OSU Top Kickers
1. PK Josh Huston, OSU
2. PK K. Schlicher, Iowa
3. P Ken DeBauche, UW
4. P Steve Weaterhford, Ill
5. P Tyson Beattie, IU



They have rated as the best NT in the Big-10 and Player Of the Year for his team.

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 12:39 PM
Looks like some may disagree with you about Gabe Watson...

They have rated as the best NT in the Big-10 and Player Of the Year for his team.

1) This wasn't a big year for defensive tackles in the Big 10. Alot of teams, like Iowa, are very young up front. Him being the best DT in the Big 10 says more about the lack of talent at the position more than anything about him.

2) He was PotY on a Michigan team that was one of the worst any Michigan fan can remember. Not exactly a huge honor.

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 12:40 PM
If laziness is what you fear, then the contract could will be back loaded, and incentives based.

The #20 overall pick isn't gonna agree to that kind of a contract out-of-hand. More than likely, he'd just hold out.

It's much easier to get a 2nd-round pick to agree to such a contract.

Chiefnj
02-09-2006, 12:41 PM
If laziness is what you fear, then the contract could will be back loaded, and incentives based.

And face a holdout. Contracts are based on slotting and based upon the previous years signings. Add a modest percentage to last years #20 and you have Watson's numbers.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 12:46 PM
1) This wasn't a big year for defensive tackles in the Big 10. Alot of teams, like Iowa, are very young up front. Him being the best DT in the Big 10 says more about the lack of talent at the position more than anything about him.

2) He was PotY on a Michigan team that was one of the worst any Michigan fan can remember. Not exactly a huge honor.
It still doesn't discount how many DTs are in the BIG 10 and he was the consensus BEST at the position. I'm just showing you, that alot of other people watch the BIG 10, as well, and seem to think he's a damn good player, in fact the best in the conference at his position. POY also speaks volumes. How many LAZY players are considered POY for their team?

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 12:54 PM
It still doesn't discount how many DTs are in the BIG 10 and he was the consensus BEST at the position. I'm just showing you, that alot of other people watch the BIG 10, as well, and seem to think he's a damn good player, in fact the best in the conference at his position. POY also speaks volumes. How many LAZY players are considered POY for their team?

1) There are alot of DT's in the Big 10. That doesn't mean all of them, or even any of them, are good. Being the BEST at a shitty position could mean that you're still shitty, just not as shitty as the rest. The next-best DT in the Big 10, according to most, is Cofield out of Northwestern. Most of the scouting services have him rated as a 5th-round pick.

2) He was declared PoY by that service you quoted. They aren't coaches and they aren't his teammates.

3) I never said he wasn't a damn good player. I said before he has the ability to be one of the best DT's in the game. The problem is that he doesn't play like that every down. How many LAZY players have awards heaped on them? I'm sure Chester McGlockton did.

jspchief
02-09-2006, 01:09 PM
It still doesn't discount how many DTs are in the BIG 10 and he was the consensus BEST at the position. I'm just showing you, that alot of other people watch the BIG 10, as well, and seem to think he's a damn good player, in fact the best in the conference at his position. POY also speaks volumes. How many LAZY players are considered POY for their team?There's no question he's a talented DT. He wouldn't even be getting mentioned in 1st round discussions if that wasn't the case.

But I think it's also pretty evident from watching him that he puts forth inconsistent effort. Is he lazy? I don't know. Will he be lazy in the NFL? Nobody knows. But you'll never convince me that he didn't take a lot of plays off.

IMO, he's not really worth the #20 pick. If it was between him and Huff, I feel Huff is a clear better athlete. If Huff is gone (likely), then it's a matter of who else is available. Just because we need a DT, that doesn't mean we should take a middle 2nd prospect in the middle of the 1st round. We have to balance need with BAA.

Spicy McHaggis
02-09-2006, 02:00 PM
1) This wasn't a big year for defensive tackles in the Big 10. Alot of teams, like Iowa, are very young up front. Him being the best DT in the Big 10 says more about the lack of talent at the position more than anything about him.

You said it before I could.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 02:29 PM
I still haven't seen one post that shows how he is lazy or takes plays off.

jspchief
02-09-2006, 02:33 PM
I still haven't seen one post that shows how he is lazy or takes plays off.How exactly is a person supposed to express that in a post?

I've said I watch a lot of Big 10 football and have seen it with my own eyes. That's all the proof I have. What else can I do? Post footage of every game he played in college?

I still haven't seen one post that shows that he doesn't take plays off.

Chiefnj
02-09-2006, 02:53 PM
nfldraftcountdown
"The problem is he doesn't always play up to his talent level and saw his stock drop considerably as a senior and was even benched at one point."

fantasyfootballjungle
"Cons: It's been touched on before and has been his sole downside throughout his career; a lack of effort. He has been criticized for not hitting the weight room often enough and for not going all out on every play. A lack of conditioning and tiring during games go hand in hand with this work ethic problem. "

nflfans.com
"Cons: Has been accused of taking far too many plays off and being lazy, does not have much of a motor and may have to be replaced on long drives, though he can collapse a pocket he sometimes is very ineffective on passing downs due to fatigue."


If you have further doubt about Watson try to obtain some game tapes of Michigan this season.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 02:55 PM
So it's your guys opinions against writers, coaches and those of us that think he's a damn fine football player...







2005 Michigan Football
78 Gabe Watson***
Sr. DT 6-4 331
Novi, Mich.
Southfield High School







At Michigan... three-year letterman ... appeared in 41 career games, making 15 starts along defensive line ... contributed 82 tackles, 13 tackles for loss and five sacks during career ... 2004 All-Big Ten first team (coaches).


Senior (2005)... As of Oct. 25 ... Playboy Magazine All-America ... Lombardi Award candidate ... played in all eight games and started four contests at nose tackle ... made three tackles from starting nose tackle position vs. Northern Illinois (Sept. 3) ... tallied three stops against Notre Dame (Sept. 10) ... registered two solo tackles vs. Eastern Michigan (Sept. 17) ... made two stops and assisted on a TFL at Wisconsin (Sept. 24) ... recorded a season-high four tackles and one TFL at Michigan State (Oct. 1) ... tallied a season-best seven stops, one TFL and one sack in starting assigment vs. Minnesota (Oct. 8) ... started and registered three tackles vs. Penn State (Oct. 15) ...



Junior (2004)... earned third varsity letter ... All-Big Ten first team (coaches) ... All-Big Ten second team (media) ... played in all 12 games and started final 11 games at defensive tackle ... set career highs in tackles (37), tackles for loss (seven) and sacks (two) ... tied for team lead among defensive lineman in stops ... saw action at defensive tackle and made one tackle vs. Miami (Sept. 4) ... tallied eight tackles and one tackle for loss at Notre Dame (Sept. 11), his first career start ... made two tackles vs. San Diego State (Sept. 18) ... recorded six tackles including one sack vs. Iowa (Sept. 25) ... starting defensive tackle at Indiana (Oct. 2) ... tallied five tackles including one sack vs. Minnesota (Oct. 9) ... made one stop at Illinois (Oct. 16) ... had three tackles and one TFL at Purdue (Oct. 23) ... recorded five tackles vs. Michigan State (Oct. 30) ... made two stops and one TFL vs. Northwestern (Nov. 13) ... recorded three tackles at Ohio State (Nov. 20), including a career-best two stops for loss ... tallied one tackle vs. Texas in the Rose Bowl (Jan. 1).



Sophomore (2003)... earned second varsity letter ... played defensive tackle in all 13 games ... made 13 stops and one tackle for loss ... saw time at defensive tackle vs. Central Michigan (Aug. 30), recording three tackles, including one tackle for loss ... played at defensive tackle vs. Houston (Sept. 6) ... made one stop from defensive tackle spot vs. Notre Dame (Sept. 13) ... recorded two tackles at Oregon (Sept. 20) ... tallied a career-high four stops vs. Indiana (Sept. 27) ... saw time at defensive tackle at Iowa (Oct. 4) ... played defensive tackle at Minnesota (Oct. 10), recording one tackle ... played defensive tackle vs. Illinois (Oct. 18) ... made one tackle as backup defensive tackle vs. Purdue (Oct. 25) ... saw time at defensive tackle at Michigan State (Nov. 1) and at Northwestern (Nov. 15) ... played defensive tackle vs. Ohio State (Nov. 22), recording one tackle ... saw time at defensive tackle vs. Southern California in the Rose Bowl (Jan. 1) ... featured on Tonight Show with Jay Leno during Rose Bowl trip.



Freshman (2002)... earned first varsity letter ... appeared in eight games and totaled two tackles ... made career debut at defensive tackle vs. Washington (Aug. 31) ... recorded first career tackle at Illinois (Sept. 28) ... totaled one tackle vs. Penn State (Oct. 12) ... played defensive tackle against Purdue (Oct. 19), Iowa (Oct. 26), Michigan State (Nov. 2), Minnesota (Nov. 9) and Ohio State (Nov. 23).



Prep... attended Southfield High School (2002) coached by David Reese ... started and lettered four years on the varsity squad ... ran 40-yard dash in 4.9 seconds and bench pressed 435 pounds ... Key Statistics ... four-year starter at offensive and defensive tackle ... also was placekicker for two seasons ... recorded 78 tackles and 10 sacks as a senior ... team ran 85 percent of running plays behind him on offense ... as a junior, recorded 74 tackles and six sacks ... Honors and Rankings ... earned all-state honors at both offensive and defensive tackles ... named All-American by Parade Magazine ... selected as second team All-USA offensive lineman by USA Today ... named first team all-state offense by the Detroit Free Press ... rated No. 1 on The Detroit News Blue Chip list and named to their Dream Team ... ranked No. 1 player on Mick McCabe's Fab 50 of Michigan's top college football prospects ... rated No. 1 offensive lineman in nation and earning All-America honors, No. 23 overall prospect in nation, and No. 4 player in Midwest by Tom Lemming ... named No. 23 player in Midwest and No. 27 defensive lineman in nation by SuperPrep ... ranked No. 3 defensive tackle and given five-star rating (the only one in 2002 class to do so) by Rivals100.com ... ranked No. 36 recruit by Collegefootballnews.com ... rated No. 21 player in country by Student Sports ... named No. 2 nose guard in nation by Max Emfinger ... ranked No. 33 offensive player in nation by G&W Recruiting Report ... Other Sports ... participated in track and wrestling.



Personal... Gabriel Pierre Kim Watson was born September 24, 1983 ... earned MVP honors at Michigan Nike Camp ... enrolled in the Division of Kinesiology ... plans to major in business.


Again, how is STARTING 15 games for 82 tackles, 13 tackles for loss, and 7 sacks in 42 appearances grounds for calling him lazy????I just don't get it, other than I think because he was demoted last year some have taken that as him being LAZY and ran with that as their mantra.

Chiefnj
02-09-2006, 03:03 PM
"tallied a season-best seven stops, one TFL and one sack in starting assigment vs. Minnesota (Oct. 8) ... "

Wow. That sounds impressive. Impressive, if you don't consider the fact that Michigan gave up 264 yards rushing that day.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 03:16 PM
"tallied a season-best seven stops, one TFL and one sack in starting assigment vs. Minnesota (Oct. 8) ... "

Wow. That sounds impressive. Impressive, if you don't consider the fact that Michigan gave up 264 yards rushing that day.
Sounds like Gabe Watson did his job. Maybe the rest played like shit, ya think?

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 03:45 PM
I could post at least a dozen scouting reports that say exactly what ChiefNJ just posted.

It's a FACT. The guy hasn't played up to his potential.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 03:55 PM
I could post at least a dozen scouting reports that say exactly what ChiefNJ just posted.

It's a FACT. The guy hasn't played up to his potential.

Again, how is STARTING 15 games for 82 tackles, 13 tackles for loss, and 7 sacks in 42 appearances grounds for calling him lazy????

How is that not living up to potential? 15 Starts and you expect more?

htismaqe
02-09-2006, 03:58 PM
Again, how is STARTING 15 games for 82 tackles, 13 tackles for loss, and 7 sacks in 42 appearances grounds for calling him lazy????

How is that not living up to potential? 15 Starts and you expect more?

Tell me this - do you know ANYTHING about him other than the numbers you've read and posted here?

Have you watched him play? I'm sure you are aware he was benched because the Michigan staff didn't feel he was playing hard enough.

You just don't get it.

His numbers are great. They could be BETTER.

If he were playing up to his potential, he'd be listed ahead of Ngata. Yes, he's that good.

But EVERYBODY knows the guy has problems with motivation and drive. It's well-documented. WELL documented.

You've just chosen to ignore it.

BigChiefFan
02-09-2006, 04:36 PM
Tell me this - do you know ANYTHING about him other than the numbers you've read and posted here?

Have you watched him play? I'm sure you are aware he was benched because the Michigan staff didn't feel he was playing hard enough.

You just don't get it.

His numbers are great. They could be BETTER.

If he were playing up to his potential, he'd be listed ahead of Ngata. Yes, he's that good.

But EVERYBODY knows the guy has problems with motivation and drive. It's well-documented. WELL documented.

You've just chosen to ignore it.
Of course, I've seen Gabe Watson play, who do you think has been debating you for over a week now about him? I wouldn't contend something without having some working knowledge of what I'm talking about. I've backed what I've said with others who get paid for their opinions, that seem to agree with my stance, so I'm not clear out in left field when it comes to Gabe Watson.

Also, please note that Gabe Watson's D-line coach was in his FIRST year with the Wolverines, last year. Watson the year before was consensus All-Big 10 per coaches.

Tribal Warfare
02-09-2006, 06:06 PM
And face a holdout. Contracts are based on slotting and based upon the previous years signings. Add a modest percentage to last years #20 and you have Watson's numbers.


the base salary and signing bonus is the key, the other bullshit such as possibly getting 4 million dollars a year is incentive based.

Tribal Warfare
02-09-2006, 11:18 PM
as the "Planet Theory" goes, there are only so many guys in the world with his blend of size, speed and athleticism. The problem is he doesn't always play up to his talent level and saw his stock drop considerably as a senior and was even benched at one point. Watson did his best to make everyone forget about that in Mobile at the Senior Bowl though and he was so dominant that it led coach Jeff Fisher to note that they considered keeping him on the sidelines so they could get some work done on the interior in practice. He was only half joking.


Well he seems like a very endearing prospect guys

htismaqe
02-10-2006, 07:23 AM
He does seem like an endearing prospect, just not at #20 in the first.

If he's our guy, we should absolutely trade down.

htismaqe
02-10-2006, 07:25 AM
Of course, I've seen Gabe Watson play, who do you think has been debating you for over a week now about him? I wouldn't contend something without having some working knowledge of what I'm talking about. I've backed what I've said with others who get paid for their opinions, that seem to agree with my stance, so I'm not clear out in left field when it comes to Gabe Watson.

Also, please note that Gabe Watson's D-line coach was in his FIRST year with the Wolverines, last year. Watson the year before was consensus All-Big 10 per coaches.

You watched him play in the Senior Bowl, I already know that. I was wondering how many times you watched him play will at Michigan.

He was far from dominant in 75% of the games I watched.

Again, I'm not saying the guy isn't good. He's just a HUGE risk. And like I said, it's WELL documented.

Spicy McHaggis
02-12-2006, 04:13 PM
Again, I'm not saying the guy isn't good. He's just a HUGE risk. And like I said, it's WELL documented.

And are we in a position that we should take that large a risk at #20 overall? Personally I don't think so. If we weren't trying to make up for past whiffs in the draft and FA then perhaps we could roll the dice on the kid. I can't believe that there won't be someone available at 20 that immediately upgrades a starter and carries much less of a Boom-or-Bust tag with him.

htismaqe
02-12-2006, 04:24 PM
And are we in a position that we should take that large a risk at #20 overall? Personally I don't think so. If we weren't trying to make up for past whiffs in the draft and FA then perhaps we could roll the dice on the kid. I can't believe that there won't be someone available at 20 that immediately upgrades a starter and carries much less of a Boom-or-Bust tag with him.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. We can't afford another Junior Siavii/Ryan Sims...

BigChiefFan
02-12-2006, 05:42 PM
You watched him play in the Senior Bowl, I already know that. I was wondering how many times you watched him play will at Michigan.

He was far from dominant in 75% of the games I watched.

Again, I'm not saying the guy isn't good. He's just a HUGE risk. And like I said, it's WELL documented. You must have not watched him specifically then. He contributed to the team's defense, it's just unfortunate the rest of the defense was in shambles. I don't recall a specific amount of games, I've seen him play in, although I find it funny, that I'm the only one you have requested that information from. Guessing I would say I've seen him play in 6 or 7 games including the Senior Bowl.

Mecca
02-13-2006, 04:56 AM
And are we in a position that we should take that large a risk at #20 overall? Personally I don't think so. If we weren't trying to make up for past whiffs in the draft and FA then perhaps we could roll the dice on the kid. I can't believe that there won't be someone available at 20 that immediately upgrades a starter and carries much less of a Boom-or-Bust tag with him.

After the top 10 picks you're always taking a risk, if there was no risk the guy wouldn't be there at 20. Taking a risk in the top 10 is how you end up screwed......Ryan Sims.

Junior Siavii and Gabe Watson are different kinds of risks. It's fine to take a risk if it's a well calculated thought out risk. Watson is probably going to go somewhere in the neighborhood of our first pick, he has the talent to be better than that pick, a calcuated risk. Junior Siavii on the other hand was thought of us a 5th rounder and was just a flat out dumb move.

jspchief
02-13-2006, 07:27 AM
After the top 10 picks you're always taking a risk, if there was no risk the guy wouldn't be there at 20. Taking a risk in the top 10 is how you end up screwed......Ryan Sims.

Junior Siavii and Gabe Watson are different kinds of risks. It's fine to take a risk if it's a well calculated thought out risk. Watson is probably going to go somewhere in the neighborhood of our first pick, he has the talent to be better than that pick, a calcuated risk. Junior Siavii on the other hand was thought of us a 5th rounder and was just a flat out dumb move.How was Ryan Sims a risk? I'm guessing you don't remember scouting reports for him. He was widely regarded as the best DT prospect in the draft and worthy of top 10 consideration. In fact, several scouting reports went as far as speculating that Sims was the reason for Peppers' success in college.

People use hindsight to take shots at that pick, but there was no reason to believe he wasn't a top quality DT when he was drafted. The Chiefs may have got it wrong, but all the "experts" that were grading him before the draft go it wrong too.

Now Siavii, that was just plain stupid.

htismaqe
02-13-2006, 07:36 AM
You must have not watched him specifically then. He contributed to the team's defense, it's just unfortunate the rest of the defense was in shambles. I don't recall a specific amount of games, I've seen him play in, although I find it funny, that I'm the only one you have requested that information from. Guessing I would say I've seen him play in 6 or 7 games including the Senior Bowl.

You're the only one I requested that info from because you're the only one trying to ignore the facts.

And if worse comes to worse, always question whether or not I was actually watching him. That always works.

If you saw him 6 times, including the Super Bowl, then I probably saw him THREE TIMES as many times as you did.

RedThat
02-13-2006, 09:15 AM
I think if we want a DT, Ngata is our best bet. But he will be gone before we pick. If we had to trade up to get him, we'd have to give up extra picks for him. If you guys wanna talk risk, thats a risk.

Gabe Watson, on the other hand, meh.....Im not crazy about him. I think he is a bit overhyped.

I think our best solution for DT is to sign Rocky Bernard in FA. He is by far the best available at this position. DT is very thin this year. But, regardless, we need another pass rusher especially in the interior of our line. He did an excellent job this year producing 8.5 sacks.

HolmeZz
02-13-2006, 11:07 AM
He's a good kid and he has great potential.

But he's lazy and does disappear too often.

BigChiefFan
02-13-2006, 01:01 PM
You're the only one I requested that info from because you're the only one trying to ignore the facts.

And if worse comes to worse, always question whether or not I was actually watching him. That always works.

If you saw him 6 times, including the Super Bowl, then I probably saw him THREE TIMES as many times as you did.I haven't ignored one damn thing regarding Gabe Watson. I provided documentation that states there are others who agree with me about Gabe Watson and his playing. I've QUESTIONED if Watson is truly LAZY and asked someone to prove that he is lazy. That is what I disagree with(his work ethic), but I've certainly not IGNORED it, like you are accusing me of.

BTW, I said SENIOR BOWL, not Super Bowl, but I guess subliminally you think he's going to become a great player, too. :p

htismaqe
02-13-2006, 02:58 PM
I haven't ignored one damn thing regarding Gabe Watson. I provided documentation that states there are others who agree with me about Gabe Watson and his playing. I've QUESTIONED if Watson is truly LAZY and asked someone to prove that he is lazy. That is what I disagree with(his work ethic), but I've certainly not IGNORED it, like you are accusing me of.

BTW, I said SENIOR BOWL, not Super Bowl, but I guess subliminally you think he's going to become a great player, too. :p

You produced a couple of scouting reports that agree with you.

Here's a couple that agree with me:
http://www.draftshowcase.com/GabeWatson.htm
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/dt/gabewatson.html

Obviously, nobody can PROVE he is lazy. All we have is what we saw on TV. I also know that he's not popular with Michigan fans for the same reason - they thought he dogged it much of this season.

Understand, I'm not saying this guy is guaranteed gonna be bust. I'm just weary of signing him to a 1st-round contract, which is slotted with guaranteed money, when he's shown obvious signs of having problems with motivation in the past.

Super Bowl. Damn. :D I do that all the time with things that I type frequently. I must type Super Bowl on here far too much. :p

BigChiefFan
02-13-2006, 04:19 PM
This also should clear-up our conversation about Gabe Watson and being recognized in the Big 10...

November 22, 2005

Four Wolverines Receive First Team All-Big Ten Honors



PARK RIDGE, Ill. -- The Big Ten Conference Office announced today (Tuesday, Nov. 22) the 2005 all-conference football teams and individual award winners, with the University of Michigan placing seven players on the All-Big Ten first or second team. The Wolverines had four first-team performers and three second-team honorees.

A two-time All-Big Ten second team selection by the coaches the previous two seasons, senior wide receiver and co-captain Jason Avant (Chicago, Ill./Carver HS) collected consensus All-Big Ten first team honors from both the coaches and media.

Senior defensive tackle Gabe Watson (Novi, Mich./Southfield HS) also received first-team accolades from both panels after splitting recognition last year. He earned All-Big Ten first team honors from the coaches and picked up a second-team nod from the media in 2004.

Fifth-year senior right guard Matt Lentz (Ortonville, Mich./Brandon HS) and fifth-year senior left tackle Adam Stenavich (Marshfield, Wis./Marshfield HS) gained first team accolades from the media and were second-team selections by the coaches.

Fifth-year senior tight end Tim Massaquoi (Allentown, Pa./Parkland HS) and junior cornerback Leon Hall (Vista, Calif./Vista HS) earned second team honors from both the coaches and media. Massaquoi was a consensus first-team selection on both ballots last year, and Hall improved upon his honorable mention selection from one year ago.

Fifth-year senior left guard Leo Henige (Chesaning, Mich./Chesaning HS) was the third U-M offensive lineman to gain all-conference accolades, receiving second team honors from the media and honorable mention accolades from the coaches.

Senior tight end Tyler Ecker (El Dorado Hills, Calif./Oak Ridge HS), fifth-year senior cornerback Grant Mason (Pontiac, Mich./Orchard Lake St. Mary's HS), fifth-year senior defensive tackle and co-captain Pat Massey (Brecksville, Ohio/St. Ignatius HS), junior placekicker Garrett Rivas (Tampa, Fla./Jesuit HS) and junior rush linebacker LaMarr Woodley (Saginaw, Mich./Saginaw HS) earned honorable mention from both the coaches and media panels. Junior outside linebacker Prescott Burgess (Warren, Ohio/Warren G. Harding HS) was an honorable mention selection by the coaches.

Senior wide receiver Carl Tabb (Ann Arbor, Mich./Huron HS) was named Michigan's recipient of the Big Ten Sportsmanship Award.

All-Big Ten Notes:
-- Lentz, Stenavich and Watson finished their careers with back-to-back first team honors.
-- Three of Michigan's five offensive linemen earned All-Big Ten accolades.
-- Hall and Henige earned their first career All-Big Ten recognition.
-- Rivas has received honorable mention the past two seasons.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2005 All-Big Ten Conference Teams
As Selected by the Conference Coaches

OFF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
QB Brett Basanez, Northwestern Michael Robinson, Penn State
RB LAURENCE MARONEY, Minnesota* TYRELL SUTTON, Northwestern
RB BRIAN CALHOUN, Wisconsin TONY HUNT, Penn State
WR Jason Avant, Michigan Mark Philmore, Northwestern
WR SANTONIO HOLMES, Ohio State Brandon Williams, Wisconsin
C Greg Eslinger, Minnesota Nick Mangold, Ohio State
OG Mark Setterstrom, Minnesota Matt Lentz, Michigan
OG Rob Sims, Ohio State JORDAN GRIMES, Purdue
OT LEVI BROWN, Penn State Adam Stenavich, Michigan
OT JOE THOMAS, Wisconsin Zach Strief, Northwestern
TE MATT SPAETH, Minnesota Tim Massaquoi, Michigan
PK Josh Huston, Ohio State KYLE SCHLICHER, Iowa

DEF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
DL Gabe Watson, Michigan Victor Adeyanju, Indiana
DL Mike Kudla, Ohio State Anthony Montgomery, Minnesota
DL Tamba Hali, Penn State* Barry Cofield, Northwestern
DL Scott Paxson, Penn State QUINN PITCOCK, Ohio State (tie)
Rob Ninkovich, Purdue (tie)
LB Chad Greenway, Iowa Abdul Hodge, Iowa
LB A.J. Hawk, Ohio State Tim McGarigle, Northwestern
LB PAUL POSLUSZNY, Penn State Bobby Carpenter, Ohio State
DB Nate Salley, Ohio State Jovon Johnson, Iowa
DB DONTE WHITNER, Ohio State Leon Hall, Michigan
DB ASHTON YOUBOTY, Ohio State (tie)
Calvin Lowry, Penn State (tie) Eric Smith, Michigan State
DB Alan Zemaitis, Penn State
P KEN DEBAUCHE, Wisconsin Steve Weatherford, Illinois

* denotes unanimous first team selection

HONORABLE MENTION: ILLINOIS: Ryan Matha; IOWA: Antwan Allen, Ed Hinkel, KENNY IWEBEMA, MARCUS PASCHAL, ALBERT YOUNG; MICHIGAN: Prescott Burgess, Tyler Ecker, Leo Henige, Grant Mason, Pat Massey, Garrett Rivas, LaMarr Woodley; MICHIGAN STATE: Domata Peko, JERRAMY SCOTT, Stefon Wheeler; MINNESOTA: TONY BRINKHAUS, Keith Lipka, GARY RUSSELL; NORTHWESTERN: MARQUICE COLE, Herschel Henderson; OHIO STATE: Marcus Green, ANTONIO PITTMAN, Anthony Schlegel, TROY SMITH; PENN STATE: JAY ALFORD, DEON BUTLER, Chris Harrell, JEREMY KAPINOS, Matthew Rice; PURDUE: DORIEN BRYANT, Mike Otto, SEAN SESTER, Brandon Villarreal; WISCONSIN: Jason Pociask, JOE STELLMACHER.

Offensive Player of the Year: Michael Robinson, Penn State
Offensive Lineman of the Year: Greg Eslinger, Minnesota
Defensive Player of the Year: A.J. Hawk, Ohio State
Defensive Lineman of the Year: Tamba Hali, Penn State*
Freshman of the Year: Tyrell Sutton, Northwestern



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2005 All-Big Ten Conference Teams
As Selected by the Media

OFF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
QB Brett Basanez, Northwestern Michael Robinson, Penn State
RB LAURENCE MARONEY, Minnesota ALBERT YOUNG, Iowa
RB BRIAN CALHOUN, Wisconsin TYRELL SUTTON, Northwestern
WR Jason Avant, Michigan JAMES HARDY, Indiana
WR SANTONIO HOLMES, Ohio State DORIEN BRYANT, Purdue
C Greg Eslinger, Minnesota Nick Mangold, Ohio State
OG Matt Lentz, Michigan Leo Henige, Michigan
OG Mark Setterstrom, Minnesota Rob Sims, Ohio State
OT Adam Stenavich, Michigan Zach Strief, Northwestern
OT JOE THOMAS, Wisconsin LEVI BROWN, Penn State
TE MATT SPAETH, Minnesota Tim Massaquoi, Michigan
PK Josh Huston, Ohio State KYLE SCHLICHER, Iowa

DEF. FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM
DL KENNY IWEBEMA, Iowa Victor Adeyanju, Indiana
DL Gabe Watson, Michigan JAY ALFORD, Penn State
DL Mike Kudla, Ohio State Matthew Rice, Penn State
DL Tamba Hali, Penn State* Rob Ninkovich, Purdue
LB Chad Greenway, Iowa Abdul Hodge, Iowa
LB A.J. Hawk, Ohio State Tim McGarigle, Northwestern
LB PAUL POSLUSZNY, Penn State Bobby Carpenter, Ohio State
DB Jovon Johnson, Iowa Leon Hall, Michigan
DB Nate Salley, Ohio State MARQUICE COLE, Northwestern
DB ASHTON YOUBOTY, Ohio State Calvin Lowry, Penn State
DB Alan Zemaitis, Penn State RODERICK ROGERS, Wisconsin
P KEN DEBAUCHE, Wisconsin Steve Weatherford, Illinois

* denotes unanimous first team selection

HONORABLE MENTION: INDIANA: Kyle Killion; IOWA: Antwan Allen, Brian Ferentz, Ed Hinkel, MITCH KING; MICHIGAN: Tyler Ecker, Grant Mason, Pat Massey, Garrett Rivas, LaMarr Woodley; MICHIGAN STATE: Domata Peko, Eric Smith, DREW STANTON, Stefon Wheeler; MINNESOTA: TRUMAINE BANKS, TONY BRINKHAUS, STEVE DAVIS, Anthony Montgomery, John Pawielski, GARY RUSSELL; NORTHWESTERN: Barry Cofield, Herschel Henderson, SHAUN HERBERT; OHIO STATE: Marcus Green, TED GINN JR., QUINN PITCOCK, ANTONIO PITTMAN, TROY SMITH, DONTE WHITNER; PENN STATE: DEON BUTLER, Chris Harrell, TONY HUNT, Scott Paxson; PURDUE: JORDAN GRIMES, Mike Otto, Matt Turner, Brandon Villarreal; WISCONSIN: NICK HAYDEN, Jason Pociask, Donovan Raiola, MATT SHAUGHNESSY, JOE STELLMACHER, Brandon Williams.

Offensive Player of the Year: Brett Basanez, Northwestern
Defensive Player of the Year: A.J. Hawk, Ohio State
Freshman of the Year: Tyrell Sutton, Northwestern
Dave McClain Coach of the Year: Joe Paterno, Penn State

Big Ten Sportsmanship Award Honorees: J Leman, Illinois; Russ Richardson, Indiana; Abdul Hodge, Iowa; CARL TABB, Michigan; Kyle Brown, Michigan State; Greg Eslinger, Minnesota; Brett Basanez, Northwestern; Nate Salley, Ohio State; Michael Robinson, Penn State; Brandon Villarreal, Purdue; Jonathan Orr, Wisconsin.

Mecca
02-13-2006, 06:53 PM
How was Ryan Sims a risk? I'm guessing you don't remember scouting reports for him. He was widely regarded as the best DT prospect in the draft and worthy of top 10 consideration. In fact, several scouting reports went as far as speculating that Sims was the reason for Peppers' success in college.

People use hindsight to take shots at that pick, but there was no reason to believe he wasn't a top quality DT when he was drafted. The Chiefs may have got it wrong, but all the "experts" that were grading him before the draft go it wrong too.

Now Siavii, that was just plain stupid.

I bust on that pick because I thought John Henderson was the better DT. I understand the scouting reports and the thinking that goes behind it. But, I still think the only reason we went out of our way to take Sims was because of Vermiels buddy John Bunting.

jspchief
02-13-2006, 07:49 PM
I bust on that pick because I thought John Henderson was the better DT. I understand the scouting reports and the thinking that goes behind it. But, I still think the only reason we went out of our way to take Sims was because of Vermiels buddy John Bunting.You could have made an argument for Henderson over Sims, but neither was clearly better. I just don't think you can sit back and say "we took a risk on Sims". It's not like we reached by taking him when we did.

I actually respect that our team had a guy targeted and did what they needed to land him.

banyon
02-14-2006, 01:27 AM
Abeline Christian?

I'd be cool if we never drafted anybody from that school.

I thought they just made up that team for Madden create-a-player

htismaqe
02-14-2006, 07:58 AM
I bust on that pick because I thought John Henderson was the better DT. I understand the scouting reports and the thinking that goes behind it. But, I still think the only reason we went out of our way to take Sims was because of Vermiels buddy John Bunting.

Henderson looks OK in the NFL now because he plays next to a REAL stud in Jacksonville.

Sims plays with guys like Browning and Siavii.

Without Stroud, he'd look just like Sims, Haynesworth, and the rest of that class.

htismaqe
02-14-2006, 08:00 AM
This also should clear-up our conversation about Gabe Watson and being recognized in the Big 10...

This really doesn't clear anything up. It was a down year for DT's in the Big 10. For example, Jimmy Kennedy was (in college) 2-3 times the player that anybody in this group is, including Watson.

Being the best of a bad bunch doesn't make one great.

But we could go on with this all day. We'll see what happens on draft day.

Cochise
02-14-2006, 08:12 AM
You could have made an argument for Henderson over Sims, but neither was clearly better. I just don't think you can sit back and say "we took a risk on Sims". It's not like we reached by taking him when we did.

I actually respect that our team had a guy targeted and did what they needed to land him.

Yeah, Sims wasn't a reach where we took him. Any other team in the league with a need at DT would have done the same thing.

He's got no help around him.

Chiefnj
02-14-2006, 08:21 AM
Yeah, Sims wasn't a reach where we took him. Any other team in the league with a need at DT would have done the same thing.

He's got no help around him.

The #6 pick is supposed to elevate those around him. Allen does well no matter who is lining up on his left. Sims has no excuse; other than the fact that he's a bust.

jspchief
02-14-2006, 09:46 AM
The #6 pick is supposed to elevate those around him. Allen does well no matter who is lining up on his left. Sims has no excuse; other than the fact that he's a bust.I'll agree with this. He should be the difference maker, not the role player, if he's taken #6 overall. In that aspect, I consider him a bust too.

But he's a bust in the same vein as other highly touted picks that didn't live up to hype/potential. Not because we reached for him or took a "risk" as Mecca indicated. He was arguably the best DT in the draft that year. Everyone got it wrong on this guy, not just KC.

I still have hopes for Sims. I think he has potential to be good to very good if he can stay healthy. The biggest knock on him at this point is he's injured too often to really get on a roll.

Chiefnj
02-14-2006, 09:56 AM
I'll agree with this. He should be the difference maker, not the role player, if he's taken #6 overall. In that aspect, I consider him a bust too.

But he's a bust in the same vein as other highly touted picks that didn't live up to hype/potential. Not because we reached for him or took a "risk" as Mecca indicated. He was arguably the best DT in the draft that year. Everyone got it wrong on this guy, not just KC.

I still have hopes for Sims. I think he has potential to be good to very good if he can stay healthy. The biggest knock on him at this point is he's injured too often to really get on a roll.

I agree. He's a true bust. A guy that was supposed to go that high and never lived up to the expectation. Siavii is a bust to a much lesser degree. He was very raw coming out of college and shouldn't have been drafted as high as he was.

BigChiefFan
02-14-2006, 10:58 AM
Sims really has been a disappointment so far. Everybody had high hopes for him and he certainly hasn't elevated his play, much less anybody's around him. Sims has been soft. I've given him the benefit of the doubt, but so far for the 6th overall pick, he's a fraud. He's the big reason we are even discussing Gabe Watson or any other DT in the first place.