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pikesome
03-07-2006, 12:23 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html

Who knew?

StcChief
03-07-2006, 12:24 PM
This just in...

The sky is still blue.

greg63
03-07-2006, 12:25 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html

Who knew?


No, really; ya think?

chiefqueen
03-07-2006, 12:25 PM
That's what I get for typing slow, but my thread title is more clever.

Cormac
03-07-2006, 12:26 PM
I guess I won't be watching SportsCenter again anytime soon.

What a git.

Ebolapox
03-07-2006, 12:27 PM
eh--I really hope he doesn't break hammerin' hank's home run record

-EB-...f*ck barry bonds

Katipan
03-07-2006, 12:29 PM
Who?

pikesome
03-07-2006, 12:31 PM
eh--I really hope he doesn't break hammerin' hank's home run record

-EB-...f*ck barry bonds

Until MLB purges all mention of Bonds and his "accomplishments", they have no chance of regaining my respect. And yes, I know they don't care.

jAZ
03-07-2006, 12:31 PM
Good article, none the less...

StcChief
03-07-2006, 12:32 PM
Hope he's banned from HOF. Bonds year off to get clean
in 2005. F'em.

GoTrav
03-07-2006, 12:40 PM
Who?

no kidding. He's freakin a monster. I didn't realize just how big he was...

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 12:46 PM
Good article, none the less...

You think so because it was written by the liberal SF media. First of all I have never even heard of someone doing a 3 week cycle. You would have to be a complete idiot to do that. Bonds obviously had some serious people around him and I don't doubt he used at some level. These type of people would never be doing 3 week cycles, it would be at least 8. At 3 weeks it's just starting to come on. then you are going to stop and try to kick youre balls back in? OK, I guess some people will believe whatever they read.

Katipan
03-07-2006, 12:49 PM
He was never cycling off. I could see him taking 3 week cocktails only to switch to something else.

BigMeatballDave
03-07-2006, 12:52 PM
I also read somewhere that Kirby Puckett died...

go bowe
03-07-2006, 12:54 PM
you should start a thread...

VonneMarie
03-07-2006, 12:55 PM
That's shocking...

58-4ever
03-07-2006, 12:55 PM
So I guess we'll see how young Bonds dies. My guess, 53.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 12:57 PM
He was never cycling off. I could see him taking 3 week cocktails only to switch to something else.

Your'e talking about stacking. The point is they say he was put on 3 week cycles, never happen. It's just starting to come on and you are going to cycle off. I don't think so. Furthermore it takes at least 5 weeks and preferrably a lot more to cycle off. Anyone who really wanted to enhance performance would cycle on, then off, then back on at the end of the season. To stay on would not only be very dangerous it would also leave you much more open to being tested positive it's makes absolutely no sense. Like I was saying I am not saying he never used. You have to objectively look at the situation though as much as you can and not just believe anything some dildos at the Chronical wrote.

I will tell you this much. Performance enhancing drugs are here to stay. They just outlawed a bunch of shit they shouldn't have a little while back and there is already a whole new generation of products out there.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 12:57 PM
I just hope he does set the HR record...baseball deserves Bonds.

SBK
03-07-2006, 12:58 PM
I love that he was taking Clomid. That's a drug that makes women ovulate. Haha.

GoTrav
03-07-2006, 12:59 PM
You think so because it was written by the liberal SF media. First of all I have never even heard of someone doing a 3 week cycle. You would have to be a complete idiot to do that. Bonds obviously had some serious people around him and I don't doubt he used at some level. These type of people would never be doing 3 week cycles, it would be at least 8. At 3 weeks it's just starting to come on. then you are going to stop and try to kick youre balls back in? OK, I guess some people will believe whatever they read.

http://members.cox.net/merisssa/ihatebarrybonds.jpg

http://images.collectors.com/Articles/bondstiffany.jpg

Great strides were made in the Bowflex from 87-06

BigMeatballDave
03-07-2006, 01:03 PM
With all the junk he was taking, I'm surprised he's not already dead...

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:05 PM
I also read somewhere that Kirby Puckett died...

So I guess we'll see how young Bonds dies. My guess, 53.

You guys kill me. I guess you just buy into any ol thing ESPN might be selling.

Meet Albert Beckles. This is a guy who massively stacked mulitiple steroids on cycles for over 25 years. At 55 he he took 2nd in the Mr. Olympia contest which is the biggest of it's kind in the world. The bodybuilding superbowl if you will. YOu guys just keep believing people die from taking steroids though don't let any of the facts get in your way.

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/albertbeckles.html#2

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:07 PM
http://members.cox.net/merisssa/ihatebarrybonds.jpg

http://images.collectors.com/Articles/bondstiffany.jpg

Great strides were made in the Bowflex from 87-06

What does that have to do with anything I have said?

It is funny though how they have been all over his ass since the Balco thing and he hasn't got any smaller.

VonneMarie
03-07-2006, 01:07 PM
I love that he was taking Clomid. That's a drug that makes women ovulate. Haha.
Yeah, taking them to his wife. :)

BigMeatballDave
03-07-2006, 01:11 PM
You guys kill me. I guess you just buy into any ol thing ESPN might be selling.

Meet Albert Beckles. This is a guy who massively stacked mulitiple steroids on cycles for over 25 years. At 55 he he took 2nd in the Mr. Olympia contest which is the biggest of it's kind in the world. The bodybuilding superbowl if you will. YOu guys just keep believing people die from taking steroids though don't let any of the facts get in your way.

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/albertbeckles.html#2So, noone dies from streroid abuse? Great! I'm ready to start juicing... ROFL

Ebolapox
03-07-2006, 01:13 PM
What does that have to do with anything I have said?

It is funny though how they have been all over his ass since the Balco thing and he hasn't got any smaller.

you yourself said there are newer drugs out there that they don't even know about--makes sense to me

honestly, I'll take your word on the whole steroids angle...I'm not even a hundredth the baseball fan I was even ten years ago, so other than hank aaron's all-time home run record, I don't give a sh*t--

but I've been through enough chemistry classes in my life and retained enough info to doubt that steroids has NO long-term degenerative effect on one's body--anyone remember the end of mark mcgwire's career?? injury upon injury... lyle alzado ring a bell?? hell, there are some who suspect that walter payton's kidney disorder might've been result of steroid/performance enhancing drugs--I don't know that I believe that, but... looking at players now, there's no doubt in my mind that steroid/performance enhancing drug use is rampant--hell, if I were in their position and could get away with it, I have no doubt I'd do it--it could be the difference between a 100 million dollar contract and a 100 thousand dollar contract...

to say that steroids have no long term degenerative effect on the body would be bordering on pure assinine

-EB-

Katipan
03-07-2006, 01:13 PM
Your'e talking about stacking. The point is they say he was put on 3 week cycles, never happen. It's just starting to come on and you are going to cycle off. I don't think so. Furthermore it takes at least 5 weeks and preferrably a lot more to cycle off. Anyone who really wanted to enhance performance would cycle on, then off, then back on at the end of the season. To stay on would not only be very dangerous it would also leave you much more open to being tested positive it's makes absolutely no sense. Like I was saying I am not saying he never used. You have to objectively look at the situation though as much as you can and not just believe anything some dildos at the Chronical wrote.

I will tell you this much. Performance enhancing drugs are here to stay. They just outlawed a bunch of shit they shouldn't have a little while back and there is already a whole new generation of products out there.

Stacking for 3 weeks is hardly uncommon.

I wouldn't be overly shocked if there were a few words misspoken in the article. It doesn't mean the overall theme isn't real.

tk13
03-07-2006, 01:15 PM
I always love it how fans on a football board jump on the game of baseball for its steroids problem. I'd still imagine there's far more football players using "illegal" supplements than is ever let on...

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:16 PM
you yourself said there are newer drugs out there that they don't even know about--makes sense to me

honestly, I'll take your word on the whole steroids angle...I'm not even a hundredth the baseball fan I was even ten years ago, so other than hank aaron's all-time home run record, I don't give a sh*t--

but I've been through enough chemistry classes in my life and retained enough info to doubt that steroids has NO long-term degenerative effect on one's body--anyone remember the end of mark mcgwire's career?? injury upon injury... lyle alzado ring a bell?? hell, there are some who suspect that walter payton's kidney disorder might've been result of steroid/performance enhancing drugs--I don't know that I believe that, but... looking at players now, there's no doubt in my mind that steroid/performance enhancing drug use is rampant--hell, if I were in their position and could get away with it, I have no doubt I'd do it--it could be the difference between a 100 million dollar contract and a 100 thousand dollar contract...

to say that steroids have no long term degenerative effect on the body would be bordering on pure assinine

-EB-

Abusing and using are two different things. They didn't even know about cycling when Alzado used.

Katipan
03-07-2006, 01:17 PM
I wonder if the psychological difference is that there's not much physical contact in baseball.

Makes steroids even more pussy.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:22 PM
So, noone dies from streroid abuse? Great! I'm ready to start juicing... ROFL

Predicting that Barry is going to die in a few years from steroid abuse and then coming back with nobody has ever died from steroid use are comments that are light years form each other. I am not sure exactly what you're laughing at.

Ebolapox
03-07-2006, 01:22 PM
Abusing and using are two different things. They didn't even know about cycling when Alzado used.

this is true--however, as I said before, if you inject enough chemicals into your body long enough, there are going to be problems whether you do them 'correctly' or 'abuse' them... it's almost the same with smoking... there are people whose bodies/immune systems can smoke for 30 years with no ill effects--living to 90 years old... then there are people who are susceptible to smoking's ill effects, and get lung cancer regardless of how long they smoke... yet nobody argues that smoking is bad for your health

I'll say this much--steroids are nothing more than a chemical that is in all of our bodies--but in a delicate balance--too much can have ill effects, too little can also have ill effects--when one uses OR abuses steroids for a performance enhancing goal, there's a chance that it could be a very bad idea--and I believe we'll see in the long run (and have already seen a flux of athletes dying extremely young while under the cloud of steroids) that steroids/performance enhancing drugs are best used with EXTREME caution

-EB-

B_Ambuehl
03-07-2006, 01:23 PM
to say that steroids have no long term degenerative effect on the body would be bordering on pure assinine

But interestingly enough, it's the *lack* of steroids and other growth factors that are more associated with long term degenerative damage to the body. Here's but one example:

The Positive Effects of Testosterone on the Heart


Steroids will cause your kidneys to implode, your heart to blow a ventricle, and your liver to squirt out of your arse, fly across the room, and knock the cat off the futon. We read it on the Internet and saw an after school special about it, so it must be true, right?

Actually, the more you learn about steroids, the more you come to realize that, like all drugs, there's a difference between their intelligent use and outright abuse. In this article, Doug Kalman takes a look at the effects of Testosterone on the heart. What he found may surprise you.


Over the years we've all heard the repeated mantra that anabolic steroids are bad for the heart. Some physicians will tell you that gear raises your risk of heart disease by lowering your good cholesterol (HDL) and raising your bad cholesterol (LDL). In fact, as some docs will tell you, steroids are known to even induce cardiac hypertrophy (enlargement of the heart). And since you can't flex your heart in an effort to woo women, who'd want that?

But, as in every story, there's more than one side. In fact, let it be said, the dangers of steroids are overstated and, hold onto your seats, may even be good for the heart. Let's examine some of the scientific studies on the positive effects of Testosterone on the heart.


What are the cardiovascular effects of steroids?

Cardiologists at the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Australia recruited both juicing and non-juicing bodybuilders for a study. Each bodybuilder had various aspects of the heart measured (carotid intima-media thickness, arterial reactivity, left ventricular dimensions, etc.). These measurements indicate whether bodybuilding, steroid usage or both affect the function, size, shape and activity of the heart.

The doctors found some obvious and not so obvious results. Predictably, those bodybuilders who used steroids were physically stronger than those who didn't. What was surprising was that the use of steroids was not found to cause any significant changes or abnormalities of arterial structure or function.

In essence, when the bodybuilders (both groups) were compared with sedentary controls, any changes in heart function were common to bodybuilders. The take home message from this study is that bodybuilding itself can alter (not impair) arterial structure/function and that steroids do not appear to impair cardiac function. (1)


Does MRFIT need a T boost?

A famous cardiac study was published about 10 years ago. It soon became on ongoing study known as the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT). The present study examined changes in Testosterone over 13 years in 66 men aged 41 to 61 years. The researchers determined if changes in total Testosterone are related to cardiovascular disease risk factors.

The average Testosterone levels at the beginning of the study were 751 ng/dl and decreased by 41 ng/dl. Men who smoked or exhibited Type A behavior were found to have even greater decreases in T levels. The change in Testosterone was also associated with an increase in triglyceride levels and a decrease in the good cholesterol (HDL).

The authors concluded that decreases in Testosterone levels as observed in men over time are associated with unfavorable heart disease risk. (2) Sounds to me like a good reason to get T support/replacement therapy in the middle age years!

In a similar study, researchers in Poland examined if Testosterone replacement therapy in aging men positively effected heart disease risk factors. Twenty-two men with low T levels received 200 mg of Testosterone enanthate every other week for one year. Throughout treatment, Testosterone, estradiol, total cholesterol, HDL and LDL were measured.

The researchers determined that T replacement returned both Testosterone and estradiol levels back to normal and acceptable levels. They also found that T replacement lowered cholesterol and LDL (the bad cholesterol) without altering HDL (the good cholesterol). Furthermore, there was no change in prostate function or size.

The take home message from this study is that T replacement doesn't appear to raise heart disease risk and it may actually lower your risk. (3) It appears that more physicians should be prescribing low dose Testosterone to middle age and aging men for both libido, muscle tone and for cardiac reasons.


What about younger men?

It's been long established that men have a higher risk of heart disease. One of the risk factors implicated is Testosterone. Reportedly, the recreational use of Testosterone can alter lipoprotein levels and, in fact, case reports exist describing bodybuilders who've abused steroids and have experienced heart disease or even sudden death. But the question remains, is the causal association one of truth or just an association?

To answer this, researchers at the University of North Texas recruited twelve competitive bodybuilders for a comprehensive evaluation of the cardiovascular effects of steroids. Six heavyweight steroid-using bodybuilders were compared with six heavyweight drug-free bodybuilders.

As expected, the heavy steroid users had lower total cholesterol and HDL levels as compared to the drug-free athletes. What was unexpected was that the steroid users also had significantly lower LDL (the bad cholesterol) and triglyceride levels as compared to the non-steroid users. In addition, the juicers also had lower apolipoprotein B levels (a marker for heart disease risk). Thus, the authors concluded that androgens do not appear to raise the risk of cardiovascular disease. (4) The take home message from this study is that the negative cardiac side effects of steroids are most likely overstated.

In a little more progressive study, researchers at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Boogie Down Bronx (the BDB to those in the know) examined Testosterone as a possible therapy for cardiovascular disease. (5) The researchers note that T can be given in oral, injectable, pellet and transdermal delivery forms. It's noted that injections of Testosterone (100 to 200 mg every two weeks) in men with low levels of T will decrease total cholesterol and LDL while raising the HDL.

In fact, Testosterone therapy has been found to have antianginal effects (reduces chest pain). Low levels of Testosterone are also correlated with high blood pressure, specifically high systolic pressure. The researchers determined that returning T levels back to normal and even high-normal levels have positive cardiovascular effects and should be considered as an adjunctive treatment for maintaining muscle mass when someone has congestive heart failure.


Putting it all together

Strong research demonstrates that the risks of negative cardiovascular effects of steroids are overstated. In fact, a recent paper published in the Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology questioned the whole risk of using steroids. (6) Joey Antonio, Ph.D. and Chris Street MS, CSCS published strong data showing that the risks of steroid use are largely exaggerated, much like scare tactics used by your parents while you were a kid. Of course, it goes unsaid that abuse of anything will lead to unwanted consequences.

We know that as we age, circulating Testosterone levels naturally decrease. For most people the Testosterone decrease goes from high-normal to mid to low normal. Data shows that there's an inverse relationship between T levels and blood pressure as well as abdominal obesity (that paunch we see on so many middle age males).

Testosterone replacement lowers abdominal obesity and restores Testosterone back to normal levels. Restored Testosterone is correlated with better mood, better muscle tone, stronger sex drive, lower cardiovascular disease risks, stronger bones and better memory. It's important to note that while conservative use gives a pronounced positive health benefit, higher doses may not necessarily lead to further health benefits.


What to do

If you see your body composition changing (your gut starts looking like your Uncle Lester's), your strength or muscle tone diminishing despite your hard training and good diet, and your sex drive not matching up to TC's columns, have your Testosterone levels checked. The acceptable normal range for Testosterone to physicians is 300 mg/dl to 1100 mg/dl. Yes, that's a pretty wide range.

In the clinic, we see people with the complaints consistent with "andropause" (a term for male menopause) and/or increased cardiovascular risk having Testosterone levels between 300 mg/dl and 550 mg/dl. Bringing it up to the mid to high-normal level is what gives the health and "youthful" benefits. Traditionally 200 mg/dl of supplemental Testosterone given every one to two weeks improves body composition, lowers total cholesterol and LDL, while raising HDL.

It appears that supplemental T is a healthier and safer way to go than many of the drugs used to treat poor lipid profiles. The data presented in this article applies for males over 35, not those who are 18. If you think that you can benefit from Testosterone therapy look for physicians who market themselves as "anti-aging" or "longevity physicians" as well as the more progressive endocrinologists or cardiologists.

Long story short, used intelligently, Testosterone is good medicine!

References:

1) Sader MA, Griffiths KA, McCredie RJ, et al. Androgenic anabolic steroids and arterial structure and function in male bodybuilders. J Am Coll Cardiol 2001;37(1):224-230.

2) Zmuda JM, Cauley JA, Kriska A, et al. Longitudinal relation between endogenous testosterone and cardiovascular disease risk factors in middle aged men. A 13 year follow-up of former Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial participants. Am J Epidemiol 1997;146(8):609-617.

3) Zgliczynski S, Ossowski M, Slowinska-Srednicka J, et al. Effect of testosterone replacement therapy on lipids and lipoproteins in hypogonadal and elderly men. Atherosclerosis 1996;121(1):35-43.

4) Diekerman RD, McConathy WJ, Zachariah NY. Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, lipoproteins and vascular disease risk. J Cardiovasc Risk 1997;4(5-6):363-366.

5) Shapiro J, Christiana J, Frishman WH. Testosterone and other anabolic steroids as cardiovascular drugs. Am J Ther 1999;6(3):167-174.

6) Antonio J, Street C. Androgen use by athletes: A reevaluation of the health risks. Can J Appl Physiol 1996;21(6):421-440.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 01:27 PM
I always love it how fans on a football board jump on the game of baseball for its steroids problem. I'd still imagine there's far more football players using "illegal" supplements than is ever let on...

not really...I also hope that Pete Rose is reinstated.

baseball is a joke.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:27 PM
I will say this. If he abused HGH over a period of years he could could potentially take himself out prematurally. My whole point in responding to this thread is that there are obviously a lot of holes in what they are reporting. When I read things with gaping holes that wide that anyone who did any due diligence would have uncovered it makes me discredit everything they are saying. Just the facts please. Just like Kobe though I am sure there are plenty of you haters out there who will believe any negative thing ever written about the guy.

Katipan
03-07-2006, 01:28 PM
Thats cuz he's kind of an asshole.

tk13
03-07-2006, 01:29 PM
not really...I also hope that Pete Rose is reinstated.

baseball is a joke.
Every sport has its bad apples and issues.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:30 PM
this is true--however, as I said before, if you inject enough chemicals into your body long enough, there are going to be problems whether you do them 'correctly' or 'abuse' them... it's almost the same with smoking... there are people whose bodies/immune systems can smoke for 30 years with no ill effects--living to 90 years old... then there are people who are susceptible to smoking's ill effects, and get lung cancer regardless of how long they smoke... yet nobody argues that smoking is bad for your health

I'll say this much--steroids are nothing more than a chemical that is in all of our bodies--but in a delicate balance--too much can have ill effects, too little can also have ill effects--when one uses OR abuses steroids for a performance enhancing goal, there's a chance that it could be a very bad idea--and I believe we'll see in the long run (and have already seen a flux of athletes dying extremely young while under the cloud of steroids) that steroids/performance enhancing drugs are best used with EXTREME caution

-EB-

Yes you should know what you're doing which is why I believe Barry had those around him that knew better than to put him on a 3 week cycle wich discredits everything these SF dildos are reporting.

Miles
03-07-2006, 01:33 PM
Book traces Bonds' steroids use to McGwire-Sosa HR race
Ron Kroichick, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 7, 2006
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...G90HJF4N22.DTL

Barry Bonds began using steroids after the 1998 baseball season and came to rely on a wide variety of performance-enhancing drugs over the next several years, according to a book written by two Chronicle reporters and excerpted in this week's Sports Illustrated.

The excerpt offers the most comprehensive account of Bonds' experience with steroids, tracing his involvement to the off-season following the historic home-run race featuring Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa.

Bonds decided to use performance-enhancing substances after watching McGwire -- whom the excerpt says he suspected was "a juicer" -- gain national acclaim for eclipsing Roger Maris' storied single-season record.

Bonds has denied using performance-enhancing drugs.

The excerpt paints a sweeping picture of Bonds' thoughts about using steroids; the role of his weight trainer, Greg Anderson, in introducing him to specific drugs; how his choice of substances changed after he struggled with injuries and met Victor Conte, owner of the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative; and Bonds' reaction as his once-supple body turned thick and muscle-bound.

Bonds is also portrayed as verbally abusive and profane to people around him, including Anderson, a childhood friend.

"Game of Shadows: Barry Bonds, BALCO, and the Steroids Scandal that Rocked Professional Sports," co-authored by Chronicle reporters Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, is scheduled for publication March 27 by Gotham Books.

The excerpt says Fainaru-Wada and Williams based their narrative "on more than a thousand pages of documents and interviews with more than 200 people, many of whom we spoke to repeatedly."

From 2003 through 2005, Fainaru-Wada and Williams wrote nearly 100 stories for The Chronicle, lifting the BALCO investigation into an international story and eventually leading to congressional pressure that forced Major League Baseball to twice toughen its steroids policy.

The excerpt suggests Bonds was not truthful during his testimony before a federal grand jury in San Francisco on Dec. 4, 2003. Bonds testified that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by BALCO, but he said he thought they were flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, The Chronicle previously reported. Bonds also flatly stated he never injected himself with drugs, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by the newspaper.

But the book excerpt in Sports Illustrated describes the way Bonds knowingly and meticulously used steroids -- including "the clear" and "the cream" provided by BALCO -- and even took control of his drug regimen when he disagreed with Anderson.

The excerpt also says Bonds "learned how to inject himself" and describes one conversation with Anderson in which Bonds says of starting another drug cycle, "I'll do it myself."

By pinpointing Bonds' initial use of steroids to the months following the 1998 season, the excerpt pushes back the date when Bonds is said to have first used steroids by more than a year. Former Bonds girlfriend Kimberly Bell said in her testimony before a federal grand jury in San Francisco in March 2005 that Bonds told her before the 2000 season that he had started using steroids, The Chronicle previously reported.

The excerpt spells out in vivid detail what attracted Bonds to performance-enhancing drugs: his intense jealousy of McGwire's 70-home run season and the national hero worship it created.

Bonds repeatedly made racially tinged remarks about McGwire to Bell, according to the excerpt, at one point saying of McGwire's chase of Maris, "They're just letting him do it because he's a white boy."

McGwire's historic season drove Bonds to wander into territory he had previously avoided, according to the excerpt.

"To Bonds it was a joke," one passage reads. "He had been around enough gyms to recognize that McGwire was a juicer. Bonds himself had never used anything more performance enhancing than a protein shake from the health-food store. But as the 1998 season unfolded, and as he watched Mark McGwire take over the game -- his game -- Barry Bonds decided that he, too, would begin using what he called 'the s -- .' "

Bonds' anger over the hoopla surrounding McGwire is clear throughout the book excerpt. His frustration spilled into the 1999 season, when Bonds walked onto the field before the Giants played McGwire and the St. Louis Cardinals in a three-game July series at Candlestick Park.

Bonds discovered the Giants had set up ropes around the batting cage to control the crowd that inevitably gathered to watch McGwire take batting practice. " 'What the f -- is this?' he demanded of the security guards. They told him the ropes were for McGwire. Furious, Bonds began knocking the ropes down. 'Not in my house!' he said."

Bonds did his homework before diving into the murky world of performance-enhancing drugs, according to the excerpt. He obtained medical advice from third parties before he began to use steroids, the excerpt says, and was told he shouldn't take them. Bonds, encouraged by Anderson, ignored the advice.

Anderson -- who later pleaded guilty to conspiracy to distribute anabolic steroids and money laundering and served three months in prison -- originally decided which drugs Bonds would use, according to the excerpt.

Bonds began using Winstrol after the 1998 season, the excerpt says, with Anderson supplying the steroids and syringes and usually injecting Bonds in the buttocks.

Winstrol "eliminated the pain and fatigue of training," the excerpt says, allowing Bonds to relentlessly lift weights at World Gym in Burlingame in the months before the 1999 season.

Bonds added 15 pounds of solid muscle that off-season, going from 210 pounds to 225, and enjoyed standing in front of a mirror and laughing as he asked, "How do I look?"

When Bonds arrived at spring training in Scottsdale, Ariz., in 1999, the excerpt says, those around the Giants began calling him "the Incredible Hulk."

Team management wondered what exactly he had done to so strikingly reshape his body, but the excerpt suggests owner Peter Magowan and other Giants officials "had no interest in learning" whether he was using steroids.

"By pursuing the issue," the excerpt reads, "the Giants ran the risk of poisoning their relationship with their touchy superstar -- or, worse, of precipitating a drug scandal the year before the opening of their new ballpark, where Bonds was supposed to be the main gate attraction."

It was not the only time the Giants are said to have avoided confronting Bonds about evidence of his involvement with performance-enhancing drugs.

Soon after Pacific Bell Park opened in 2000, according to the excerpt, the Giants ordered unofficial background checks on Bonds' three personal trainers -- Anderson, stretching coach Harvey Shields and running coach Raymond Farris -- who regularly roamed the team's clubhouse so they could respond to any Bonds request.

Those background checks revealed that World Gym, now known as Diesel Fitness, "was known as a place to score steroids," the excerpt says, "and Anderson himself was rumored to be a dealer." But the Giants did not act on this information because they "didn't want to alienate Bonds on this issue, either," according to the excerpt.

As Bonds learned in 1999, Winstrol was not a magic potion. He sustained a torn triceps tendon in his left arm in April, requiring surgery and forcing him to miss seven weeks. Bonds and Anderson blamed steroids for the elbow injury, the excerpt says, "because they had made his arm muscles so large that the elbow tendon could not support them."

Bonds also complained of pain in his knee and back, leading Anderson to search for other drugs in 2000. Soon thereafter, Anderson put Bonds on Deca-Durabolin, the excerpt says, and later added human growth hormone (HGH). Bonds favored HGH, according to the excerpt, because it allowed him to stay muscle-bound and maintain his thirst to train while also feeling flexible. It also seemed to improve his eyesight.

Bonds mostly avoided injury in 2000, playing in 143 games and hitting what was then a career-high 49 home runs. But he wanted more, and the path unfolded before him after the 2000 season, when Anderson arranged for Bonds to meet Conte, the owner of BALCO.

Conte introduced Bonds to "the clear" and "the cream," the two then-undetectable designer steroids at the heart of the doping scandal that would also send Conte to prison; he is serving a four-month sentence after pleading guilty to conspiracy to distribute anabolic steroids and money laundering.

According to the excerpt, doping calendars kept by Anderson also showed Bonds used testosterone; insulin, which had a significant anabolic effect when used with HGH; "Mexican beans," fast-acting steroids thought to quickly clear the user's system; trenbolone, a steroid "created to improve the muscle quality of beef cattle"; and Clomid, a female fertility drug that Conte believed helped his clients "recover their natural ability to produce testosterone."

Anderson apparently had easy access to drugs: The excerpt explains how he bought testosterone and growth hormone from AIDS patients who had obtained the drugs with a prescription.

Conte had Bonds take one blood and urine screening in November 2000, another in November 2001 and another before spring training in 2002 -- to make sure the drugs were working as planned and would not be detected on a steroid test, the excerpt says.

Bonds became a believer, especially as his power soared into new frontiers in 2001, the year he shattered McGwire's three-year-old record with a mind-bending 73 homers.

As the excerpt notes, the drugs helped Bonds become probably the best hitter in major-league history -- in his late 30s, an age when even the game's greatest sluggers and his own father, Bobby Bonds, saw their skills begin to erode.

As he began to work with Conte, Bonds leaned less on Anderson to make decisions about his drug regimen, the excerpt says.

"He could feel the drop of energy that came when he was cycling off the performance enhancers and was mindful of the distance of his home runs," another passage reads. "When his power started to decline he would tell Anderson to start him on another drug cycle, according to a source familiar with Bonds. Anderson kept the calendar that tracked his cycles. If he told Bonds he didn't need a cycle, Bonds would just tell him, 'F -- off, I'll do it myself.' "

Bonds' interest in this expanding menu of performance-enhancing substances continued in 2002, according to the doping calendars kept by Anderson and cited in the excerpt. Bonds was injected with HGH every other day during a three-week cycle, the excerpt says, and he used "the clear" and "the cream" between injections of HGH.

Conte's involvement may have increased Bonds' choices and boosted his power, but it backfired when federal officials raided BALCO's offices in Burlingame on Sept. 3, 2003. As The Chronicle previously reported and as the excerpt recounts, Conte cooperated with federal agents by implicating 27 elite athletes, including Bonds, as having received performance-enhancing drugs.

Conte said Bonds used the substances "on a regular basis," the excerpt states. Conte later denied naming Bonds to the government, but in their search for evidence at BALCO, the excerpt says, federal officials found file folders detailing the players' drug use, including a folder for Bonds.

The excerpt also offers a more explicit account of Bonds' relationship with Bell, a graphic artist whom he dated for nine years, and Anderson, the childhood friend who became Bonds' constant sidekick. They both learned the hazards of spending time around Bonds, the excerpt suggests.

"If Bonds told you to do something, you had to drop everything and do it," the excerpt reads. "If you were slow to comply, or if you tried to explain why it wasn't such a good idea, Bonds would get right up in your face, snarling, calling you a 'punk bitch,' repeating what he wanted and saying, 'Did I (expletive) stutter?' You had to suck it up and take the abuse and the humiliation -- everyone did."

Bonds gave Bell money throughout their secret relationship, telling her it came from the sale of autographed memorabilia, as The Chronicle previously reported.

But the excerpt also paints Bonds as controlling, telling Bell, at various points, that she should spend the smaller sums of cash on a new big-screen television or a bed for her apartment. He also had the Beverly Hills Sports Council, his agents, send Bell a check in 1996, when Bonds decided Bell should have breast augmentation surgery, according to the excerpt.

In addition to telling the grand jury Bonds had confessed to her in 2000 about his steroid use, Bell also described the numerous changes in Bonds' physical appearance and behavior, the excerpt recounts. Those changes, consistent with steroid use, included his back breaking out in acne, his hair falling out and his head appearing to grow larger.

Bonds, the excerpt says, also "suffered sexual dysfunction, another common side effect of steroid use."

Bonds' lawyer Michael Rains has previously accused Bell of trying to extort money from him after their relationship ended.

Fainaru-Wada and Williams based the book on a wide range of material, Williams said.

"There are statements to federal investigators, sworn testimony, a secret recording of Greg Anderson and on-the-record interviews, and the gist of our story is all supported by material that we can point to the sources on," Williams said. "It's all going in one direction. There's not any equivocation on this that's compelling or believable. We also have relied on unnamed sources who have given us a story that's very consistent with what the public record says about Bonds and steroid use."

As for why the story matters, Williams said, "I think it's important for baseball to corral performance-enhancing drugs and not tolerate them, because the tolerance for those drugs will inevitably seep down into the colleges and the prep programs. We're already seeing it."
__________________

Brock
03-07-2006, 01:34 PM
Jerome Bettis is from Detroit.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:36 PM
I always love it how fans on a football board jump on the game of baseball for its steroids problem. I'd still imagine there's far more football players using "illegal" supplements than is ever let on...

Freakin amen. Did you see Tiki in SI doing 750 pound squats? Yea he's doing that naturally. Give me a freaking break.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 01:37 PM
Every sport has its bad apples and issues.

Shyeah...ok.

I dont see Marino as a disgraced gambler who was arrested for tax evasion and admitted gambling on the Dolphins.

And now Shaun Alexander tied to Balco and it's revealed he's been doing steroids since Marshall Faulk set the TD record.

Sure, there are bad apples in the league, but not to the same degree.

Baseball's 'joke' status is larger than player scandals, however. The game is fundamentally flawed and it's the reason why the NFL owners and players are scrambling to save themselves this week from become the same joke.

Brock
03-07-2006, 01:39 PM
I always love it how fans on a football board jump on the game of baseball for its steroids problem. I'd still imagine there's far more football players using "illegal" supplements than is ever let on...

Okay. Prove it.

gblowfish
03-07-2006, 01:43 PM
This guy and McGwire are gonna fall apart like an old 1974 Chevy Vega. I have no doubt.

tk13
03-07-2006, 01:45 PM
Shyeah...ok.

I dont see Marino as a disgraced gambler who was arrested for tax evasion and admitted gambling on the Dolphins.

And now Shaun Alexander tied to Balco and it's revealed he's been doing steroids since Marshall Faulk set the TD record.

Sure, there are bad apples in the league, but not to the same degree.

Baseball's 'joke' status is larger than player scandals, however. The game is fundamentally flawed and it's the reason why the NFL owners and players are scrambling to save themselves this week from become the same joke.
There aren't? Ray Lewis was an MVP caliber guy, Super Bowl winner, and the best defensive player in the league for years and years, and he was put on trial for murder. Murder! You telling me that's better than gambling and taking drugs? Rae Carruth... he was a winner. Michael Vick, or Ron Mexico, is another face of the league. Larry Johnson is becoming an elite offensive player, and he's had domestic issues. Victor Conte that helped give Bonds stuff, worked with the entire Denver Broncos organization during their Super Bowl years. Yeah I bet there wasn't anything going on there... even Romo admitted he used illegal stuff.

The only difference is that the NFL sweeps its dirty laundry under the rug better than Major League Baseball. That I'll agree with.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 01:48 PM
This guy and McGwire are gonna fall apart like an old 1974 Chevy Vega. I have no doubt.

Oh god not another ****ing expert on the subject.
ROFL

tk13
03-07-2006, 01:50 PM
Okay. Prove it.
Have you watched football? Players are bigger, faster, stronger... many of them are total freaks of nature. Just as baseball players have gotten much bigger over the last 15 years, so have football players. You mean to tell me that football players are simply a more honest breed of person and aren't using any illegal supplements while baseball players are all bad seeds who cheat the system as much as possible? That's being naive. Football players have more to gain than baseball players do by using this stuff.

Brock
03-07-2006, 01:54 PM
Have you watched football? Players are bigger, faster, stronger... many of them are total freaks of nature. Just as baseball players have gotten much bigger over the last 15 years, so have football players. You mean to tell me that football players are simply a more honest breed of person and aren't using any illegal supplements while baseball players are all bad seeds who cheat the system as much as possible? That's being naive. Football players have more to gain than baseball players do by using this stuff.

Baseball didn't even have a testing program in place until what, last year? Are you seriously telling me that a sport with NO testing is going to have fewer violators than a sport with mandatory testing?

tk13
03-07-2006, 02:02 PM
Baseball didn't even have a testing program in place until what, last year? Are you seriously telling me that a sport with NO testing is going to have fewer violators than a sport with mandatory testing?
That's a joke. If the NFL testing was so tough, why didn't they catch Romo? Can you even test for HGH? I am no expert on this subject but I know there are masking agents, and they just come up with newer drugs that are difficult to detect.

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 02:02 PM
He should get the Pete Rose treatment...

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 02:04 PM
Baseball didn't even have a testing program in place until what, last year? Are you seriously telling me that a sport with NO testing is going to have fewer violators than a sport with mandatory testing?


HGH is all over the place and it is not testable. You can't seriously look at the NFL and say they are clean with a straight face. My point is who gives a rats ass? Performance enhancing drugs have been here for 40 years now and they are here to stay.

vailpass
03-07-2006, 02:12 PM
The authors of the book are on ESPN radio right now. One is an investigative reporter, the other is a sports/investigative reporter.They seem to know an awful lot about Bonds the person, the athlete,etc.
They are discussing Bonds beating on his girlfriend, Kimberly Bell. She said it was due to roid rage. She kept voice mails from Bonds where he threatened to kill her, she played them for the authors. Freaky bastard.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 02:17 PM
The authors of the book are on ESPN radio right now. One is an investigative reporter, the other is a sports/investigative reporter.They seem to know an awful lot about Bonds the person, the athlete,etc.
They are discussing Bonds beating on his girlfriend, Kimberly Bell. She said it was due to roid rage. She kept voice mails from Bonds where he threatened to kill her, she played them for the authors. Freaky bastard.

Did they play them on ESPN?

tk13
03-07-2006, 02:24 PM
I've posted all this before, even before Romo admitted he used steroids, but it's some of the ties Victor Conte had to the NFL....

BL: And I understand you've also worked with some of the players on the Denver Broncos?

VC: Yes. We've provided testing and consultation for over 250 NFL players, including the entire Denver Broncos Super Bowl championship team, as well the entire Miami Dolphins team, including their coaches and trainers.

http://www.snac.com/maq_interview_victor.htm


Athletes looking for an edge have sworn by Conte's prescription of high-tech "chemical element analysis" followed by nutritional supplements - usually his signature product ZMA. BALCO promised athletes a 30 percent increase in testosterone levels - and greater strength and endurance, fewer muscle cramps, even more restful sleep.

"Victor's the man," said Oakland Rai-ders linebacker Bill Romanowski in the Dec. 2000 issue of Muscular Development Magazine. He played for Denver at the time. "I've got about 90 percent of the Broncos on ZMA. The guys are telling me they sleep better and feel better!"

*****

But several years later, Tafralis tested positive for steroids, one of five Olympians featured on Conte's Web sites who have tested positive over the years. There is no indication they received steroids from Conte.

In the following years, Conte and his companies seemed to be approaching peak performance, as he claimed to provide testing and nutritional products to hundreds of top athletes, including Olympic sprinters Tim Montgomery and Marion Jones; and football players John Elway, Dan Marino and Bill Romanowski.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/26/CONTE.TMP

In its Thursday story on the BALCO raid, the San Jose Mercury News reported that as of Wednesday, the BALCO Web site said runners such as Jones, Montgomery and Regina Jacobs have used BALCO products. Those athletes did not appear on BALCO's Web site as clients, but former Broncos Bill Romanowski and John Elway did.

http://usoc.gazette.com/fullstory.php?id=936

vailpass
03-07-2006, 02:53 PM
Did they play them on ESPN?

These two authors and their publisher are exposing themselves to the harshest kind of legal retribution possible
IF BONDS CAN PROVE THEY ARE LYING.
There is not a reputable publishing house in the world that would print this book without solid, verifiable documentation of the facts.


The players Jose Canseco named in his book never said a word, never brought a law suit, never fought the charges.
Why? Because they were true.


Let's see if Bonds sues, if Bonds fights to stop the book from being distributed on the grounds that it is libelous. If the accusations are untrue then surely the great communicator Barry Bonds will stand up and fight them to the end. After all, his legacy is at stake.

How much ya' wanna' bet Swollen Barry tucks his tail (he may really have one by now) between his legs and slinks into the shadows?

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 02:59 PM
These two authors and their publisher are exposing themselves to the harshest kind of legal retribution possible
IF BONDS CAN PROVE THEY ARE LYING.

Bringing a libel lawsuit is the LAST thing Bonds wants to do, unless he like the idea of having everything he did for years, including beating on his girlfriend and taking 'roids, on the front page for years, getting deposed and grilled by attorneys for days about what he did, when, where and with who, having his friends deposed, having his girlfriend deposed, etc. ad infinitum.

Even if there are a few inaccuracies in the book, if it's overall mostly true, then NO GOOD ATTORNEY would recommend a libel suit. They are very, very hard to win and expose your life to unbelievable scrutiny.

There is not a reputable publishing house in the world that would print this book without solid, verifiable documentation of the facts.

You'd be surprised about publishers, but the reporters themselves having their butts on the line to a degree, so I'm sure they have plenty of backup for most/all of what they say.

The players Jose Canseco named in his book never said a word, never brought a law suit, never fought the charges.
Why? Because they were true.

That's not entirely true. For public figures to bring a libel/slander lawsuit is almost always a bad idea, no matter what the statement was. There's a host of reasons for this, but trust me.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:02 PM
There aren't? Ray Lewis was an MVP caliber guy, Super Bowl winner, and the best defensive player in the league for years and years, and he was put on trial for murder. Murder! You telling me that's better than gambling and taking drugs? Rae Carruth... he was a winner. Michael Vick, or Ron Mexico, is another face of the league. Larry Johnson is becoming an elite offensive player, and he's had domestic issues. Victor Conte that helped give Bonds stuff, worked with the entire Denver Broncos organization during their Super Bowl years. Yeah I bet there wasn't anything going on there... even Romo admitted he used illegal stuff.

You have a point with Lewis, I will grant you that one. However, I dont see him as an elite player anymore or a major recordholder of anything in the sport. Will he make HOF? Probably.

The rest of your examples, you've got to be kidding, Carruth...I dont think you could get more obscure, unless you wanted to trot out DV draftee Lawrence Phillips or Marinovichs marijuana possessions.

As for Vick and Johnson--again, they are not the same degree as Bonds/Rose. If you wanted something similar, compare Bonds run and disgrace with Peyton's run for the Passing TD title...if Manning was under drug suspicion, we could have a parallel...alas, we dont.

chiefs john
03-07-2006, 03:03 PM
Bonds* is he poster boy for what's wrong with baseball and sports in general.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:04 PM
You have a point with Lewis, I will grant you that one. However, I dont see him as an elite player anymore or a major recordholder of anything in the sport. Will he make HOF? Probably.

The rest of your examples, you've got to be kidding, Carruth...I dont think you could get more obscure, unless you wanted to trot out DV draftee Lawrence Phillips or Marinovichs marijuana possessions.

As for Vick and Johnson--again, they are not the same degree as Bonds/Rose. If you wanted something similar, compare Bonds run and disgrace with Peyton's run for the Passing TD title...if Manning was under drug suspicion, we could have a parallel...alas, we dont.
Marino and Elway both had ties to BALCO....

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:05 PM
Marino and Elway both had ties to BALCO....

Good now all you need is proof they took steroids like Bonds did and we're good to go.

vailpass
03-07-2006, 03:06 PM
Bringing a libel lawsuit is the LAST thing Bonds wants to do, unless he like the idea of having everything he did for years, including beating on his girlfriend and taking 'roids, on the front page for years, getting deposed and grilled by attorneys for days about what he did, when, where and with who, having his friends deposed, having his girlfriend deposed, etc. ad infinitum.

Even if there are a few inaccuracies in the book, if it's overall mostly true, then NO GOOD ATTORNEY would recommend a libel suit. They are very, very hard to win and expose your life to unbelievable scrutiny.

Yes, that was my point.


You'd be surprised about publishers, but the reporters themselves having their butts on the line to a degree, so I'm sure they have plenty of backup for most/all of what they say.
There is not a major publisher out there that would risk the loss of reputation and money on this book unless their in-house counsel had determined they were covered.

That's not entirely true. For public figures to bring a libel/slander lawsuit is almost always a bad idea, no matter what the statement was. There's a host of reasons for this, but trust me.

Whenever anyone says "trust me" the last thing you should do is trust them. On this you are dead wrong. There is not a big-name professional athlete out there that would not go to the wall to have a false allegation of steroid use expunged. Not one. The taint of steroid use colors their legacy. It takes away the achievements they earned through hard work and gives them to the needle. It would be a bad idea for any athlete to acept the label of steroid user if it were not true.

Miles
03-07-2006, 03:09 PM
You have a point with Lewis, I will grant you that one. However, I dont see him as an elite player anymore or a major recordholder of anything in the sport. Will he make HOF? Probably.

The rest of your examples, you've got to be kidding, Carruth...I dont think you could get more obscure, unless you wanted to trot out DV draftee Lawrence Phillips or Marinovichs marijuana possessions.

As for Vick and Johnson--again, they are not the same degree as Bonds/Rose. If you wanted something similar, compare Bonds run and disgrace with Peyton's run for the Passing TD title...if Manning was under drug suspicion, we could have a parallel...alas, we dont.

To discount the whole game of baseball because of players like Bonds and Ruth is ridiculous. Like TK said every sport has bad examples in it. If you want to more historic NFL examples you always have LT.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Good now all you need is proof they took steroids like Bonds did and we're good to go.
You don't have any "proof" Bonds took anything except for a statement he made saying he unknowingly used a cream he didn't know was steroids. He hasn't tested positive for anything yet. Otherwise you truly don't have any more proof than I do.

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Whenever anyone says "trust me" the last thing you should do is trust them. On this you are dead wrong. There is not a big-name professional athlete out there that would not go to the wall to have a false allegation of steroid use expunged. Not one. The taint of steroid use colors their legacy. It takes away the achievements they earned through hard work and gives them to the needle. It would be a bad idea for any athlete to acept the label of steroid user if it were not true.


Okay, whatever you say, except that I've heard high profile attorneys who represent public figures talk about their immediate response anytime one of their clients calls and says "so and so just said X, it's not true ---- we've gotta sue the dirty bastards!".

The answer is "let's step back a minute and CAREFULLY think about this".

Almost always, the answer is NOT to bring a libel suit. How the hell do you think those tabloid rags at the supermarket stay in business? Because 99% of the time, filing a libel suit isn't going to be the right answer. Soemtimes it will be, but usually not.

But I'm sure you know more than they do.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Marino and Elway both had ties to BALCO....

But people love hating Barry, it's different. Juicing has been going on in sports for a very long time now. NFL is probably one of the worst, just look at the players. The main difference was that the players in MLB didn't really need to hide it. The real problem with baseball is no salary cap and has nothing to do with supplementation. It's like Romanowski said. I'll take everything I think I can, anything to get that edge. That's never going to change in professional sports no matter how bad some people just want to put the black cape on Barry.

vailpass
03-07-2006, 03:13 PM
You don't have any "proof" Bonds took anything except for a statement he made saying he unknowingly used a cream he didn't know was steroids. He hasn't tested positive for anything yet. Otherwise you truly don't have any more proof than I do.

Honest question: Are you being serious or are you just taking this position for the sake of argument?

I'm curious to know if there is a rational adult in the US that believes Swollen Barry did not do roids.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:14 PM
To discount the whole game of baseball because of players like Bonds and Ruth is ridiculous. Like TK said every sport has bad examples in it. If you want to more historic NFL examples you always have LT.

I didnt...a careful reading of my previous posts would eliminate the confusion. I'd suggest post #43.

I discount the game of baseball, because it's a joke and the game deserves record holders like Bond and Rose. I really dont care anything about Ruth.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:15 PM
You don't have any "proof" Bonds took anything except for a statement he made saying he unknowingly used a cream he didn't know was steroids. He hasn't tested positive for anything yet. Otherwise you truly don't have any more proof than I do.

Ok, sure.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:17 PM
But people love hating Barry, it's different. Juicing has been going on in sports for a very long time now. NFL is probably one of the worst, just look at the players. The main difference was that the players in MLB didn't really need to hide it. The real problem with baseball is no salary cap and has nothing to do with supplementation. It's like Romanowski said. I'll take everything I think I can, anything to get that edge. That's never going to change in professional sports no matter how bad some people just want to put the black cape on Barry.

Heh...I dont really care one good wit about Bonds. Aside from your steriod rants, you miss my point.

I think the joke that is MLB deserves a HR champ like Bonds, a known cheat. It's just the perfect irony.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:18 PM
Honest question: Are you being serious or are you just taking this position for the sake of argument?

I'm curious to know if there is a rational adult in the US that believes Swollen Barry did not do roids.
I am not taking the argument that Bonds did not do steroids. I would venture to guess he has at some time or another, I certainly wouldn't be surprised.

My argument was that people automatically assumed Barry did it because of his ties with BALCO, but guys like Romo and Elway and Marino ran free without question.

vailpass
03-07-2006, 03:18 PM
Okay, whatever you say, except that I've heard high profile attorneys who represent public figures talk about their immediate response anytime one of their clients calls and says "so and so just said X, it's not true ---- we've gotta sue the dirty bastards!".

The answer is "let's step back a minute and CAREFULLY think about this".

Almost always, the answer is NOT to bring a libel suit. How the hell do you think those tabloid rags at the supermarket stay in business? Because 99% of the time, filing a libel suit isn't going to be the right answer. Soemtimes it will be, but usually not.

But I'm sure you know more than they do.

There is no need to be snyde because you disagree with me.

Athletes are different. As I was typing this the guy on ESPN was saying "if an athlete was falsely accused of roiding he would be shouting from the highest mountain" that he did not do it.
The position of the superstar athlete is unique; their entire career and legacy depend on everyone knowing they did it through work and talent not through roids. They don't need to file a lawsuit, they can call a presser and give a statement of denial. They can demand to be tested on the spot. They can challenge their accuser to confront them with proof.
If someone would have accused M. Jordan of roiding their would have been an immediate denial by Michael. Or Will Shields. Or Teddy Bruschi. There is not a single athlete who would not fight an accusation of roids IF THEY KNEW THEY WERE INNOCENT.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:19 PM
Ok, sure.
What about those 70's Steelers teams that won multiple titles and are littered throughout the HOF and were supposedly big users of steroids? Is that okay because it's football and you like football?

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:20 PM
What about those 70's Steelers teams that were supposedly all roided up? Is that okay because it's football and you like football?

supposedly? LOL...

vailpass
03-07-2006, 03:22 PM
I am not taking the argument that Bonds did not do steroids. I would venture to guess he has at some time or another, I certainly wouldn't be surprised.

My argument was that people automatically assumed Barry did it because of his ties with BALCO, but guys like Romo and Elway and Marino ran free without question.

Roomo ran free without question? WTF? I knew Romo was "special". You should have too after his roid-rage spitting act.

Why would anyone ever question Elway or Marino? The source of their success was obvious: talent. They never showed any physical signs of getting bigger and stronger as they aged; unlike Barry "wow I can't believe those caps used to fit on my melon" Bonds. Both QB's bodies ran down as the years went by.

Miles
03-07-2006, 03:24 PM
I didnt...a careful reading of my previous posts would eliminate the confusion. I'd suggest post #43.

I discount the game of baseball, because it's a joke and the game deserves record holders like Bond and Rose. I really dont care anything about Ruth.

Sorry I mistook you for making more than just the tired baseball sucks argument.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:25 PM
Sorry I mistook you for making more than just the tired baseball sucks argument.

I understand, if I were you, I'd surrender too...

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:26 PM
supposedly? LOL...
New Orleans Saints coach Jim Haslett says he used steroids when he starred as a linebacker in the early 1980s, and claims the Pittsburgh Steelers' use of the drugs during Super Bowl championship seasons in the 1970s brought steroids into vogue around the NFL.

"That's because it wasn't illegal then," Haslett said. "That was my point. You had so many people using them because they were legal. I talked about it to show how far our league has come. We have the best policy anywhere on steroids."

Haslett played in Buffalo from 1979 to 1985, and finished his career in 1987 with the New York Jets. He said he used steroids for one season early in his career.

"It started, really, in Pittsburgh. They got an advantage on a lot of football teams. They were so much stronger (in the) '70s, late '70s, early '80s," Haslett said Wednesday. "They're the ones who kind of started it."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2005-03-24-haslett-steroids_x.htm

chiefs john
03-07-2006, 03:27 PM
Is there any one person on earth who will say, barry bonds has never been on roids. I have never heard a single person take that position. Nobody believes that.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:27 PM
"That's because it wasn't illegal then," Haslett said.

Game. Set. Match.

Miles
03-07-2006, 03:29 PM
I understand, if I were you, I'd surrender too...

Just saying the game is a joke is pretty convincing to me.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:30 PM
Roomo ran free without question? WTF? I knew Romo was "special". You should have too after his roid-rage spitting act.

Why would anyone ever question Elway or Marino? The source of their success was obvious: talent. They never showed any physical signs of getting bigger and stronger as they aged; unlike Barry "wow I can't believe those caps used to fit on my melon" Bonds. Both QB's bodies ran down as the years went by.
Recovery. You don't have to take the things just to get stronger, but to recover and heal from injuries quicker too. Look at baseball, the first major leaguer actually suspended was Alex Sanchez, who is a shrimpy little speedster that plays CF. He didn't need to buff up at all. Marino and Elway were both old... they both played to 37, 38 years old, pretty old for a QB. Maybe they'd get banged up, probably didn't recover from those bumps and bruises nearly as well as they did in their youth. Maybe they didn't do anything, but you could've easily found a reason for them both to take stuff in their later years.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:31 PM
Just saying the game is a joke is pretty convincing to me.

It's good to know you're aware of the inherently obvious. That way there's no wasted bandwidth.

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 03:31 PM
There is no need to be snyde because you disagree with me.

Sure there is. It fits my annoying/arrogant personality. :D

Athletes are different. As I was typing this the guy on ESPN was saying "if an athlete was falsely accused of roiding he would be shouting from the highest mountain" that he did not do it.
The position of the superstar athlete is unique; their entire career and legacy depend on everyone knowing they did it through work and talent not through roids. They don't need to file a lawsuit, they can call a presser and give a statement of denial. They can demand to be tested on the spot. They can challenge their accuser to confront them with proof.
If someone would have accused M. Jordan of roiding their would have been an immediate denial by Michael. Or Will Shields. Or Teddy Bruschi. There is not a single athlete who would not fight an accusation of roids IF THEY KNEW THEY WERE INNOCENT.

Oh yes. That is quite correct. There are many ways to respond to false allegations. I'm focused SOLELY on the libel suit. You said, I bleieve, sue them for libel. THAT's the part that's not recommended. There are many game plans for dealing with false accusations, and suing them for libel is at the very bottom of the list. That's all I'm saying. I didn't say "don't respond" and keep your head down. I just said that suing them for libel isn't usually the right answer.

There are many, many possible right answers, and suing for libel usually ain't it. That's all I'm saying.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 03:33 PM
Is there any one person on earth who will say, barry bonds has never been on roids. I have never heard a single person take that position. Nobody believes that.

Does anyone believe that Tiki is squating 750 all natural?

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:33 PM
Game. Set. Match.
What? So you say Bonds and baseball is a joke for use of steroids when it wasn't illegal, but the 70's Steelers and the game of football are okay when they did it? How is that logical at all....

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 03:36 PM
Is there any one person on earth who will say, barry bonds has never been on roids. I have never heard a single person take that position. Nobody believes that.


You'd think, but I've spoken, briefly, with people wwo think OJ is innocent, so...

It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:36 PM
What? So Bonds and baseball is a joke for use of steroids when it wasn't illegal, but the 70's Steelers and the game of football are okay? How is that logical at all....

Let me help you with the logic.

When the Steelers did it, it was not a banned/illegal substance.

When Bonds did it, it was a banned/illegal substance.

Again, that doesnt make baseball a joke, it's just that the sport deserves a cheat as it's HR king. It's fitting...

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:38 PM
Let me help you with the logic.

When the Steelers did it, it was not a banned/illegal substance.

When Bonds did it, it was a banned/illegal substance.

Again, that doesnt make baseball a joke, it's just that the sport deserves a cheat as it's HR king. It's fitting...
There was no steroid testing in baseball when Bonds used it.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:38 PM
There was no steroid testing in baseball when Bonds used it.

Ok, so steroids was not a banned substance in baseball?

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 03:41 PM
What? So you say Bonds and baseball is a joke for use of steroids when it wasn't illegal, but the 70's Steelers and the game of football are okay when they did it? How is that logical at all....

Because he doesn't like Barry or baseball.

I do not support much baseball because of the cap issue but I have to say that watching Barry hit is the best part of the game to me. You see all the oposing fans booing him and talking shit but if he's coming up to bat they are spilling their cokes all over themselves to see him hit.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:44 PM
Because he doesn't like Barry or baseball.

Feh... a careful reading of my post DIRECTLY to you, would indicate otherwise. I know you're a big steriod fan, so I understand the inability to see the obvious cheating.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:44 PM
Ok, so steroids was not a banned substance in baseball?
They had drug tests but you couldn't be suspended for steroid use.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 03:45 PM
Ok, so steroids was not a banned substance in baseball?

Precursors and HGH were just addeed in 2005. If you want to know why Barry looks puffed even when they test him all the time that most likely comes from HGH. Of course you have issue with that because it wasn't a banned substance.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:45 PM
They had drug tests but you couldn't be suspended for steroid use.

Ok, let me follow the logic here...

Steriods are a banned substance, but MLB doesnt enforce it's rules against cheating. Ok, can you start to see why I call this sport a joke?

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 03:46 PM
Feh... a careful reading of my post DIRECTLY to you, would indicate otherwise. I know you're a big steriod fan, so I understand the inability to see the obvious cheating.

Pardon me, I believe you are the one that said it wasn't cheating when the Squeelers used it.

ROYC75
03-07-2006, 03:48 PM
Rafel says, I did not use steroids........... He probally thinks Barry and Mark didn't do it either.

I'll tell ya right up front, when I have to use a 7 day pack for my back( usually twice a year ) , I can tell the increase energy level after the 4th day. It's evidence when I hit a golf ball farther too.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:48 PM
Precursors and HGH were just addeed in 2005. If you want to know why Barry looks puffed even when they test him all the time that most likely comes from HGH. Of course you have issue with that because it wasn't a banned substance.

Whether or not it was explicitly banned, the drugs he was taking was cheating. Pure and simple. It was a designed effort to skirt the existing ban.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Ok, let me follow the logic here...

Steriods are a banned substance, but MLB doesnt enforce it's rules against cheating. Ok, can you start to see why I call this sport a joke?
What are you talking about? This isn't rocket science. MLB now tests and suspends players for steroid use. Up until 2 or 3 years ago they did not have a policy to punish players like they do now. That's why Selig got run through a ringer in front of Congress. Before they didn't, now they do. This isn't hard.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:50 PM
Pardon me, I believe you are the one that said it wasn't cheating when the Squeelers used it.

Pardon me, but you are the one that keeps saying Im a Barry hater, and Ive stated now 3 times, I could care less.

Steroid were not illegal when the Steelers did it. They were illegal when Bonds did it. It's really that simple. Parse all you want.

Im done for the day.

KCTitus
03-07-2006, 03:51 PM
What are you talking about? This isn't rocket science. MLB now tests and suspends players for steroid use. Up until 2 or 3 years ago they did not have a policy to punish players like they do now. Before they didn't, now they did. This isn't hard.

How long has steriods been a banned substance in MLB? Was just 2005 or sooner? I'll let you look it up and get back to me tomorrow.

vailpass
03-07-2006, 03:51 PM
Sure there is. It fits my annoying/arrogant personality. :D

ROFL Fair enough.


Oh yes. That is quite correct. There are many ways to respond to false allegations. I'm focused SOLELY on the libel suit. You said, I bleieve, sue them for libel. THAT's the part that's not recommended. There are many game plans for dealing with false accusations, and suing them for libel is at the very bottom of the list. That's all I'm saying. I didn't say "don't respond" and keep your head down. I just said that suing them for libel isn't usually the right answer.

There are many, many possible right answers, and suing for libel usually ain't it. That's all I'm saying.

Got ya'. If I understand correctly: My point is that there is no way an athlete should take a false accusation laying down; your point is that if you want to fight a false accusation the last resort should be a libel suit.

Duly noted.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 03:51 PM
Whether or not it was explicitly banned, the drugs he was taking was cheating. Pure and simple. It was a designed effort to skirt the existing ban.

That's simply not true. There are a ton of performance enhancing substances out there now that are legal to use and being used in all sports. You could call that skirting too but then you would have to say all sports are a joke.

tk13
03-07-2006, 03:54 PM
How long has steriods been a banned substance in MLB? Was just 2005 or sooner? I'll let you look it up and get back to me tomorrow.
2004. Prior to 2002 there was no official steroid policy in baseball, in 2004 is when penalties were put into place for steroid use.

vailpass
03-07-2006, 03:56 PM
Have you ever seen the old Saturday NIght Live skit where they had the Steroid Olympics?
There is a humongous roid-boy weight lifter snatching 1500 pounds. Halfway through the jerk his arms rip right out of their sockets and fall down, still gripping the weight bar.

That is how I envision Bonds going out. He rips a moon-shot 650 foot homer over McCovey and right behind it comes the bat with both of his massive arms attached; his hands still gripping the bat as he stands at home plate, armless and confused.

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 03:58 PM
2004. Prior to 2002 there was no official steroid policy in baseball, in 2004 is when penalties were put into place for steroid use.

BTW, great posts.

chiefs john
03-07-2006, 04:02 PM
That is how I envision Bonds going out. He rips a moon-shot 650 foot homer over McCovey and right behind it comes the bat with both of his massive arms attached; his hands still gripping the bat as he stands at home plate, armless and confused.

Like that wrestler that was all roided up and tried to jump into the ring and tore both his quads... I forget his name.

My point is that no one can seriously deny that Bonds has been roiding, the only question is whether or not he is in a grey area with the rules and how much they tarnish his legacy. Or if he even has one besides roids.

He's too close to the record now not to get it, unless his body totally breaks down. Or, maybe he's on something even newer now what is indetectable like the other stuff was. I guess if you don't want him to get the record you can really only hope he's still roiding and gets busted.

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 04:08 PM
Like that wrestler that was all roided up and tried to jump into the ring and tore both his quads... I forget his name.

My point is that no one can seriously deny that Bonds has been roiding, the only question is whether or not he is in a grey area with the rules and how much they tarnish his legacy. Or if he even has one besides roids.

He's too close to the record now not to get it, unless his body totally breaks down. Or, maybe he's on something even newer now what is indetectable like the other stuff was. I guess if you don't want him to get the record you can really only hope he's still roiding and gets busted.

Frankly, I'm hoping for a bus to whack him.

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 04:11 PM
2004. Prior to 2002 there was no official steroid policy in baseball, in 2004 is when penalties were put into place for steroid use.


yes, but they were illegal prior to this.

Is abusing steroids illegal?

Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence.

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/

chiefs john
03-07-2006, 04:17 PM
If you read that article, click on the link to the excerpt from the book.

one good quote:

'Most attributed the changes in Bonds's body to a heavy workout regimen, as though a 34-year-old man could gain 15 pounds of muscle in 100 days without drugs.'

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 04:36 PM
If you read that article, click on the link to the excerpt from the book.

one good quote:

'Most attributed the changes in Bonds's body to a heavy workout regimen, as though a 34-year-old man could gain 15 pounds of muscle in 100 days without drugs.'

So that would be 1998 and there was no rule against using any supplement back then. Titus says he doesn't care about that. Even the book itself says he used for 5 years starting in 98 which if true would mean he never broke a rule. I'll bet Titus is going to be Barry's biggest fan now that he finds that out. ROFL

Amnorix
03-07-2006, 04:57 PM
So that would be 1998 and there was no rule against using any supplement back then. Titus says he doesn't care about that. Even the book itself says he used for 5 years starting in 98 which if true would mean he never broke a rule. I'll bet Titus is going to be Barry's biggest fan now that he finds that out. ROFL


Well, no rule except, y'know, the LAW. :D

BIG_DADDY
03-07-2006, 05:04 PM
Well, no rule except, y'know, the LAW. :D

Too many laws. Titus doesn't care about that anyway he's a big Squeelers fan and they loved them. The only difference for him was it wasn't cheatin back then. :)

Calcountry
03-07-2006, 05:29 PM
All that juice and no Titles. At least our juicers produced. :p

Miles
03-07-2006, 06:03 PM
The full article was just posted on SI.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/index.html

DomerNKC
03-07-2006, 06:40 PM
ban barry and erase all of his stats. his name should be erased from all stat books. it should look as though he never played the game of baseball. anyone else(mcguire, canseco, sosa, etc) that is proven to have used steroids should have the same done to them also.

Halfcan
03-07-2006, 11:08 PM
Bonds is a fraud-the HR record should be erased.

Dunit35
03-07-2006, 11:15 PM
ban barry and erase all of his stats. his name should be erased from all stat books. it should look as though he never played the game of baseball. anyone else(mcguire, canseco, sosa, etc) that is proven to have used steroids should have the same done to them also.


If they are going to keep Bonds' they should put assistance in paranthases or something.

el borracho
03-07-2006, 11:33 PM
Does anyone believe that Tiki is squating 750 all natural?
I really don't see why he couldn't. I squatted over 400 lbs. in my late teens when I weighed only 175 lbs. I no longer do squats because my lower back is all effed-up but I leg press over 800 lbs for reps and have leg pressed over 1,000 lbs. on heavy days.

Dunit35
03-07-2006, 11:36 PM
I really don't see why he couldn't. I squatted over 400 lbs. in my late teens when I weighed only 175 lbs. I no longer do squats because my lower back is all effed-up but I leg press over 800 lbs for reps and have leg pressed over 1,000 lbs. on heavy days.

I'm sure Tiki does squat 750...My buddy can squat 700...he's been lifting since he was 12 though and he's 19 now.

el borracho
03-07-2006, 11:40 PM
'Most attributed the changes in Bonds's body to a heavy workout regimen, as though a 34-year-old man could gain 15 pounds of muscle in 100 days without drugs.'

Again, I don't see why not. That is only 5 lbs. a month. I'm not saying that Bonds did not do steroids but I can say that I personally put on close to 25 lbs. last year by changing my diet and being very consistent at the gym. Now not all of that was muscle (I was a bit puffy) but in all of that weight gain (from 195 lbs. to 218 lbs.) I added only 2 unwanted inches to my waist (from 32" to 34").