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View Full Version : The science of sexual orientation.


Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 05:39 PM
Double yew tee eff?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/03/09/image1388399g.jpg

CBS) There are few issues as hotly contested ó and as poorly understood ó as the question of what makes a person gay or straight. It's not only a political, social, and religious question but also a scientific question, one that might someday have an actual, provable answer.

The handful of scientists who work in this under-funded and politically charged field will tell you: That answer is a long way off. But as Lesley Stahl reports, their efforts are already yielding tantalizing clues. One focus of their research is twins.


The bedrooms of 9-year-old twins Adam and Jared couldn't be more different. Jared's room is decked out with camouflage, airplanes, and military toys, while Adam's room sports a pastel canopy, stuffed animals, and white horses.

When Stahl came for a visit, Jared was eager to show her his G.I. Joe collection. "I have ones that say like Marine and SWAT. And then that's where I keep all the guns for 'em," he explained.

Adam was also proud to show off his toys. "This is one of my dolls. Bratz baby," he said.

Adam wears pinkish-purple nail polish, adorned with stars and diamonds.

Asked if he went to school like that, Adam says, "Uh-huh. I just showed them my nails, and they were like, 'Why did you do that?'"

Adam's behavior is called childhood gender nonconformity, meaning a child whose interests and behaviors are more typical of the opposite sex. Research shows that kids with extreme gender nonconformity usually grow up to be gay.

Danielle, Adam and Jared's mom, says she began to notice this difference in Adam when he was about 18 months old and began asking for a Barbie doll. Jared, meanwhile, was asking for fire trucks.

Not that much has changed. Jaredís favorite game now is Battlefield 2, Special Forces. As for Adam, he says, "It's called Neopets: The Darkest Faerie."

Asked how he would describe himself to a stranger, Jared says, "I'm a kid who likes G.I. Joes and games and TV."

"I would say like a girl," Adam replied to the same question. When asked why he thinks that is, Adam shrugged.

"To me, cases like that really scream out, 'Hey, it's not out there. It's in here.' There's no indication that this mother is prone to raise very feminine boys because his twin is not that way," says Michael Bailey, a psychology professor at Northwestern University and a leading researcher in the field of sexual orientation.

Bailey says he doesn't think nurture is a plausible explanation.

Psychologists used to believe homosexuality was caused by nurture ó namely overbearing mothers and distant fathers ó but that theory has been disproved. Today, scientists are looking at genes, environment, brain structure and hormones. There is one area of consensus: that homosexuality involves more than just sexual behavior; itís physiological.

There's four more pages so clicketh the link.

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 05:44 PM
This is hilarious:


There were signs, even when they were little kids. Their mother told Stahl that Steve loved sports and the outdoors while Greg liked helping out in the kitchen. But it wasn't until high school that Steve became convinced Greg was gay.

Asked if he said anything to his brother, Steve says, "I did actually. And I think the way I worded it was something like, 'You know, Greg, if you're gay, it's OK with me. And I'll still love you the same.'

And he gave a very philosophical answer. He said something like, 'Well, I love the soul of a person and not the physical being.'

And in my mind, I was like, 'Yep, he's gay.'"

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 05:47 PM
This is just weird:

While biologists look at hormones for answers about human sexuality, other scientists are looking for patterns in statistics. And hard as this is to believe, they have found something they call "the older brother effect."

"The more older brothers a man has, the greater that man's chance of being gay," says Bailey.

Asked if that's true, Bailey says, "That is absolutely true."

If this comes as a shock to you, youíre not alone. But it turns out, itís one of the most solid findings in this field, demonstrated in study after study.

And the numbers are significant: for every older brother a man has, his chances of being gay increase by one third. Older sisters make no difference, and there's no corresponding effect for lesbians. A first-born son has about a 2 percent chance of being gay.

Jenny Gump
03-13-2006, 05:50 PM
What about men who live with their parents and are still virgins? This sounds pretty gay to me.

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 05:51 PM
FTR I have two sisters. I'm off the hook.

go bowe
03-13-2006, 05:52 PM
the link hath been clicked, my liege...

and most interesting is it...

Jenny Gump
03-13-2006, 05:52 PM
FTR I have two sisters. I'm off the hook.

Do u spank it thinking of female folks?

JBucc
03-13-2006, 05:53 PM
Looks like someone could use some electroshock therapy

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 05:54 PM
Do u spank it thinking of female folks?

I'm not prepared to detail my spanking processes to anyone on the internet, sorry.

go bowe
03-13-2006, 06:01 PM
oh, c'mon...

we'd really really like to know...

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 06:04 PM
oh, c'mon...

we'd really really like to know...

You're such a freak, go bo. I bet you really love slapping them skins... :D

go bowe
03-13-2006, 06:06 PM
You're such a freak, go bo. I bet you really love slapping them skins... :Ddepends on whose er, i mean which skins you're talking about... :) :) :)

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 06:08 PM
I'm not prepared to detail my spanking processes to anyone on the internet, sorry.

I'm glad to share mine, but it's going to take a while to document, because it's pretty complicated.

KcMizzou
03-13-2006, 06:10 PM
What kind of parent lets a 9 year old boy wear nail polish? :shake:

Mr. Laz
03-13-2006, 06:13 PM
What kind of parent lets a 9 year old boy wear nail polish? :shake:
the non-homophobic kind .......... :shrug:

Coach
03-13-2006, 06:13 PM
What kind of parent lets a 9 year old boy wear nail polish? :shake:

My thoughts exactly.

KcMizzou
03-13-2006, 06:14 PM
the non-homophobic kind .......... :shrug:I guess I'm a homophobe then. My son won't be wearing it any time soon.

Mr. Laz
03-13-2006, 06:17 PM
I guess I'm a homophobe then. My son won't be wearing it any time soon.
would you let your 9 year old daughter wear nail polish?



that pretty much will answer the phobic question for ya

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 06:18 PM
I dunno, Laz. I wouldn't let my son wear a dress to school, but I wouldn't have a problem if my daughter did. Some things are simply gender-specific, and I think nail polish is one of them.

Mr. Laz
03-13-2006, 06:20 PM
I dunno, Laz. I wouldn't let my son wear a dress to school, but I wouldn't have a problem if my daughter did. Some things are simply gender-specific, and I think nail polish is one of them.
good point


but technically it is orientation enforcement ... so to speak

greg63
03-13-2006, 06:34 PM
I guess I'm a homophobe then. My son won't be wearing it any time soon.


I'm pretty certain that here in my neck of the woods a nine year old boy would most likely get his butt kicked for wearing nail polish.

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 06:34 PM
Yeah, it's really only culture that tells men to not wear dresses. That and hairy legs. However, I yield to culture in many cases.

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 06:35 PM
I'm pretty certain that here in my neck of the woods a nine year old boy would most likely get his butt kicked for wearing nail polish.


He would claw their eyes out.

Mr. Laz
03-13-2006, 06:36 PM
Yeah, it's really only culture that tells men to not wear dresses. That and hairy legs. However, I yield to culture in many cases.

not only is it culture ... but it's primarily OUR culture

men wear dress-like clothing in many other cultures

seclark
03-13-2006, 06:40 PM
i wouldn't peek up a mans dress, even if he had pretty nails.
sec

greg63
03-13-2006, 06:45 PM
He would claw their eyes out.


ROFLROFLROFL


Good point.

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 06:48 PM
Slightly off topic, but my wife is envious of my nails. At the risk of appearing non-humble, I am blessed to have perfect, pink, shiny, strong, smooth nails. They're probably my best feature.

Uh...how about them Bears? Good defense there. Mighty good defense.

seclark
03-13-2006, 06:51 PM
Slightly off topic, but my wife is envious of my nails. At the risk of appearing non-humble, I am blessed to have perfect, pink, shiny, strong, smooth nails. They're probably my best feature.

Uh...how about them Bears? Good defense there. Mighty good defense.
lots of jello...i heard that at poker.
sec

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 07:04 PM
lots of jello...i heard that at poker.
sec

Jello?


See. Check these babies out.

seclark
03-13-2006, 07:14 PM
Jello?


See. Check these babies out.
supposed to be good for the nails. supposed to mix it up w/water and drink it.
you got a pretty ring.
sec

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 07:18 PM
Jello?


See. Check these babies out.

So we've seen Rain Man's hands and feet now.

Slowly we're assembling his entire body.

Also, I always saw him as a desktop PC user, so the image of a laptop has shattered my preconceived notion of his surfing environment.

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 07:20 PM
supposed to be good for the nails. supposed to mix it up w/water and drink it.
you got a pretty ring.
sec

Why, thank you. It showed up well in the light.

Rain Man
03-13-2006, 07:22 PM
So we've seen Rain Man's hands and feet now.

Slowly we're assembling his entire body.

Also, I always saw him as a desktop PC user, so the image of a laptop has shattered my preconceived notion of his surfing environment.

I've been a laptop user for almost seven years now.

Check out my space bar. I'm actually starting to wear a hole through the plastic. I've got the same thing going with the "H" key, but to a lesser extent.

Mr. Kotter
03-13-2006, 07:22 PM
The fact of the matter is, the research, despite claims--by anyone on either side--is far from conclusive, and seems very much headed toward the position that I've stated numerious times in other threads: homosexuality is pretty clearly a complex mix of nature AND nurture, and is more akin to alcoholism or other sociopathic conditions than it is gender or race. Before you get your panties all in a wad, let me explain...

Alcoholism seems to have a physical and genetic predisposition, that can be influenced greatly, one way or another, by sociological factors and events during the life of a person. Brain research is suggesting the same thing for violent criminals.....that a "predisposition" (nature) can have a wide variety of outcomes, depending on specific sociological factors and events (nurture.) Research on homosexuality seems to suggest that it is much more like that, than a predominately genetic condition.

I spent two years and literally hundreds of hours, pouring over the research as a part of our church denomination's "sexuality study" that proposed to ordain gay ministers and recognize gay unions. The study concluded last year, in a very ambiguous fashion: maintaining the status quo (no changes), but allowing individual congregations discretion to determine for themselves their local policy. It was a cop-out, and left the door open for the "losing" side to "try again" later.

On a personal note, I have a highly addictive personality. If I had experienced poor self-esteem, poor role models, lack of "normal" psychosocial development during my formative years, it could have left me extremely vulnerable to alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling, or sex addictions, for example. However, sociological factors and events led me down a more moderate path. I have to fight it, constantly; but the self-awareness and self-control that were socialized into my being.....help me, for the moment anyway, to avoid particularly destructive choices.

ChiefsPlanet, is my main addiction--although a couple of others tempt me, on occasion. I'll live with that, I guess. :shrug:

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 07:30 PM
Check out my space bar. I'm actually starting to wear a hole through the plastic.

You got a greasy thumb.

Ultra Peanut
03-13-2006, 07:52 PM
I definitely think parents should do their best to make sure children know it's WRONG to act outside their socially predetermined gender roles and there WILL be consequences for doing so. That should get them to bottle it up and be good little boys.

Then, when the kids have been hiding their true feelings for a couple of decades and off themselves, they'll simply leave people to ask why they did it rather than shame their parents by letting anyone know that they produced a damn faggot.

The fact of the matter is, the research, despite claims--by anyone on either side--is far from conclusiveSo... it's far from conclusive when it says something you disagree with, and "quite clear" when it says something more in line with your beliefs?

Mr. Kotter
03-13-2006, 08:02 PM
I definitely think parents should do their best to make sure children know it's WRONG to act outside their socially predetermined gender roles and there WILL be consequences for doing so. That should get them to bottle it up and be good little boys.

Then, when the kids have been hiding their true feelings for a couple of decades and off themselves, they'll simply leave people to ask why they did it rather than shame their parents by letting anyone know that they produced a damn faggot.

So... it's far from conclusive when it says something you disagree with, and "quite clear" when it says something more in line with your beliefs?

It's quite clear, that the research is ambiguous ("far from conclusive"); suggestive that it IS a combination of both biological predisposition AND sociological phenomena--nature and nurture.

Wikipedia on the controversial Michael Bailey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Michael_Bailey

It should be of particular interest to you, Psicosis....



A couple of excerpts:

In October 2004, as reported in the December 10th 2004 issue of the Chronicle of Higher Education, Bailey resigned from his Chairmanship of the Department of Psychology, following the completion of the investigation and implementation of undisclosed sanctions against him by the University, but still serves as a professor there.

His prominent critics include peers in sexology, as well as activists in the trans community. Bailey's critics claim that his book presents large amounts of speculation and opinion as science. Bailey's response was a lecture at the 2003 International Academy of Sex Research titled "Identity politics as a hindrance to scientific truth." [2] Immediately after Bailey's presentation, John Bancroft, then head of the Kinsey Institute, told Bailey: "Michael, I would caution you against calling this book 'science' because I have read it ... and I can tell you it is not science." [3]. Eli Coleman, head of the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association has described the book as "bad science" and an "unfortunate setback." Clinician Walter Bockting states that Bailey's book "fails to offer a balanced and well-cited review of the scientific literature that would have shown that the diversity found within this community cannot as easily be reduced to the two types." [4] Bailey's replies to such criticisms characterize many of them as being due to "misunderstanding" of the book. Further, he claims that many of his most prominent critics have severely misrepresented his actual claims and attempted to defame him because his dismisses their concerns as self-justification, identity politics, and lies.

If you really want to dig in, you might want to visit this Michigan professor's site too:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/LynnsReviewOfBaileysBook.html

Ultra Peanut
03-13-2006, 08:09 PM
It's quite clear, that the research is ambiguous; suggestive that it IS a combination of both biological predisposition AND sociological phenomena--nature and nurture. The only thing that suggests is that the research, which is approached from various different positions with different results in mind, is ambiguous.

As for J. Michael Bailey, anyone with the slightest bit of moral and ethical understanding should be able to recognize and condemn his particular brand of calumniation and deceit. He's a deluded maniac at best, and a conniving snake-oil peddler at worst.

Mr. Kotter
03-13-2006, 08:16 PM
The only thing that suggests is that the research, which is approached from various different positions with different results in mind, is ambiguous.

As for J. Michael Bailey, anyone with the slightest bit of moral and ethical understanding should be able to recognize and condemn his particular brand of calumniation and deceit.

I agree.

Investigative journalism, and research, sponsored by a group with an agenda (both left and right) always raise questions of credibility in my mind. Much of the research, on both sides of this question, is subject to credibility issues.....the religiously backed research on the right AND the pro-gay rights research on the left. They have dueled for the last two or three decades and have merely muddied the waters more than they were....if that's possible.

As for Bailey, it's interesting Stahl is using him as her primary source--given the high-profile criticism he has faced. Perhaps in some perverse way, he sees this as an attempt to mend fences or build bridges. I didn't see the piece, originally; but from what I'm seeing, Stahl doesn't address his controversial past. I find it irresponsible, if Stahl didn't address his credibility issues.....though not surprising.

Interesting though, isn't it? :shrug:

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 08:17 PM
Society has made me asexual.

Mr. Kotter
03-13-2006, 08:20 PM
Society has made me asexual.

Society? Was that the ex's name? No wonder she was weird.... ;)

Donger
03-13-2006, 08:20 PM
Do u spank it thinking of female folks?

Just a picture of my wife. That's not so bad.

go bowe
03-13-2006, 08:21 PM
Society has made me asexual thank Gawd it's not contagious...

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 08:22 PM
I once heard someone say that everyone makes up their mind about 99% of the issues immediately. Any "reasoning" is just rationalization.

Ultra Peanut
03-13-2006, 08:22 PM
As for Bailey, it's interesting Stahl is using him as her primary source--given the high-profile criticism he has faced. Perhaps in some perverse way, he sees this as an attempt to mend fences or build bridges.

Interesting though, isn't it? :shrug:More annoying that he's being passed off as some sort of legitimate source of information, than anything. He's not in the business of building bridges.

Bailey may believe it's "in there," but he also believes he could "cure" it, and that if the kid does turn out to be transgendered, it's simply because he just likes boys or gets off on the thought than any sort of deep matters of personal identity.

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 08:22 PM
Just a picture of my wife. That's not so bad.

Come on, I can only see her head, and she's wearing denim.

That doesn't even get me hard.

Donger
03-13-2006, 08:23 PM
Come on, I can only see her head, and she's wearing denim.

That doesn't even get me hard.

That's because you're gay. Or can't extrapolate.

I don't know which is more sad.

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 08:27 PM
Society? Was that the ex's name? No wonder she was weird...My ex doesn't have anything to do with anything. She was a speedbump that didn't have all that great an impact on the larger road.

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 08:27 PM
That's because you're gay. Or can't extrapolate.

I don't know which is more sad.

I can extrapolate, but there's not much information there.

There's superior boner-inducing material out there. I have standards.

Donger
03-13-2006, 08:30 PM
I can extrapolate, but there's not much information there.

Of course there is. Your lack of experience in such matters handicaps you; that's all.

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 08:37 PM
Of course there is. Your lack of experience in such matters handicaps you; that's all.

OK LISTEN. The picture is not up to snuff.

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 08:38 PM
Yeah, but she can suck-start a harley.

Donger
03-13-2006, 08:39 PM
OK LISTEN. The picture is not up to snuff.

Not for a rookie, no.

Mr. Kotter
03-13-2006, 08:45 PM
More annoying that he's being passed off as some sort of legitimate source of information, than anything. He's not in the business of building bridges.

Bailey may believe it's "in there," but he also believes he could "cure" it, and that if the kid does turn out to be transgendered, it's simply because he just likes boys or gets off on the thought than any sort of deep matters of personal identity.

I can see that. I don't get that either....those that concede the predisposition as one of the components, yet they subscribe to the reparative theories. With alcoholism, there's obvious "harm;" whereas, there is no direct and inevitable physical harm with homosexuality--as long as the person can learn to cope, and to live who they are--there's nothing to be "cured" (unless it's a heartfelt genuine desire on the part of the person affected.) I know reaching that comfort zone with it is not easy for many though.

DenverChief
03-13-2006, 08:46 PM
OH LORD here we go again.....

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 08:47 PM
OH LORD here we go again.....Kotter's still struggling with his latent homosexuality. As soon as he grabs his ankles and lets his real nature penetrate his well-groomed facade, all this lunacy will stop.

Donger
03-13-2006, 08:49 PM
there is no direct and inevitable physical harm with homosexuality

'Cept for that not propagating the species thingy.

Mr. Kotter
03-13-2006, 08:50 PM
Kotter's still struggling with his latent homosexuality. As soon as he grabs his ankles and lets his real nature penetrate his well-groomed facade, all this lunacy will stop.

Hasn't happened in the 25 or so years of my adult life....it ain't happening now. Besides, I'm not exactly Adonis or George Michael anymore....heh.

:p

Mr. Kotter
03-13-2006, 08:50 PM
'Cept for that not propagating the species thingy.

As long as it's not the norm, not that either...:shrug:

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 08:52 PM
'Cept for that not propagating the species thingy.Is that be a bad thing, if the homosexuals are as deviant as many believe?

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 08:53 PM
Hasn't happened in the 25 or so years of my adult life....it ain't happening now. Besides, I'm not exactly Adonis or George Michael anymore....heh. So you (not so) secretly wish you were George Michael?

:hmmm:

DenverChief
03-13-2006, 08:54 PM
'Cept for that not propagating the species thingy.
yeah with 6 billion people on the planet I forsee the human race dying out in the next hundred years or so with homosexuality :rolleyes:

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 08:54 PM
Not for a rookie, no.

Your reasoning is backwards. If I was a rookie, anything would get me excited.

Donger
03-13-2006, 08:56 PM
yeah with billion people on the planet I forsee the human race dying out in the next hundred years or so with homosexuality :rolleyes:

Just taking it to the extreme. Just as those that say there is "nothing wrong" with homosexuality. Of course there is.

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 08:58 PM
Just taking it to the extreme. Just as those that say there is "nothing wrong" with homosexuality. Of course there is.Imagine a world where no fornication of any kind is allowed except for that intended to propogate the species.

*shudder*

DenverChief
03-13-2006, 08:59 PM
Imagine a world where no fornication of any kind is allowed except for that intended to propogate the species.

*shudder*


exactly

Donger
03-13-2006, 08:59 PM
Imagine a world where no fornication of any kind is allowed except for that intended to propogate the species.

*shudder*

Indeed. How dull.

keg in kc
03-13-2006, 09:01 PM
Indeed. How dull.I think I was teleported to that world shortly after my divorce. And dull it is.

Count Zarth
03-13-2006, 09:02 PM
Indeed. How dull.

I don't see the issue. I mean, as long as we all get a copy of your wife's picture... :shrug:

Donger
03-13-2006, 09:03 PM
Your reasoning is backwards. If I was a rookie, anything would get me excited.

A discerning rookie is still a rookie.