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View Full Version : Itís expensive, but itís baaaahaaad.


Radar Chief
03-17-2006, 02:17 PM
The deadliest fighter jet goes operational.
March 2006

The F22 Raptor air superiority fighter is the meanest airplane in the skies, and now its' coming to a TFR near you.
Itís official: The United States Air Force has certified the worldís only "fifth generation" fighter jet as operationally ready. The Lockheed Martin F-22 combines supersonic speed (including supersonic cruise without afterburner) with stealth and advanced targeting, weaponry and defense capabilities to make it hands down the most advanced fighter jet on the planet. With plans to field 183 Raptors in all, the Air Force has already begun to fly operational missions with the jet, including homeland defense missions, so you might see one any day now.
It wasnít a short gestation period for the worldís best air superiority fighter. The need for a jet like the F-22 to replace the F-15 was first officially voiced by the Air Force in the early 1980s. But the first flight of the prototype YF-22 didnít take place until 1990, while the first supersonic flight wouldnít occur for another seven years.
While much of its performance remains classified, according to some reports, in aerial combat tests against F-15s and other frontline U.S. fighters, the
F-22 had a near perfect "kill record" and was never picked up by its foesí radar during mock combat flights.
Such capabilities come at a price, though: The cost of each F-22, by some estimates, is around $125 million.

http://www.flyingmag.com/assets/image/2006/Q1/3152006141727.jpg

Linky. (http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=11&article_id=635&print_page=y)

patteeu
03-17-2006, 02:21 PM
That's really cool. But...


YF23 > YF22

http://www.voodoo.cz/yf23/

:)

Logical
03-17-2006, 02:24 PM
Only 183 to replace the almost 500 F-15s that were in service at one time. That is worrisome.

Chief Faithful
03-17-2006, 02:28 PM
I had the opportunity to go and visit the F22 production line. One amazing stat was it's fly time was twice the F15 and could cruise at super sonic speeds giving it 3 times the distance without refueling.

SBK
03-17-2006, 02:30 PM
I've seen them flying over Atlanta before, that's one bad mamba jamma.

Donger
03-17-2006, 02:33 PM
Only 183 to replace the almost 500 F-15s that were in service at one time. That is worrisome.

Considering that eight of them recently took out 33 F-15Cs in an exercise without a single loss, I wouldn't be that concerned.

Pants
03-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Su-35/Su-37. :D

Donger
03-17-2006, 02:37 PM
SU-35. :D

Peh. An Air Force pilot in a Cessna could shoot one of those down.

They do have great ejection seats, however, which is nice.

Weeeee!

SBK
03-17-2006, 02:37 PM
Considering that eight of them recently took out 33 F-15Cs in an exercise without a single loss, I wouldn't be that concerned.

Wow.

Logical
03-17-2006, 02:39 PM
Peh. An Air Force pilot in a Cessna could shoot one of those down.

They do have great ejection seats, however, which is nice.ROFL

In all seriousness the Mig series were pretty sweet, though they were basically just copies of the F series with modifications/improvements. Them Ruskies sure knew how to steal a good design.

Pants
03-17-2006, 02:41 PM
Peh. An Air Force pilot in a Cessna could shoot one of those down.

They do have great ejection seats, however, which is nice.

I'm sure you know this, but there are whole websites dedicated to the F-22 vs. Su-35/37 hypothetical dogfights.

morphius
03-17-2006, 02:43 PM
ROFL

In all seriousness the Mig series were pretty sweet, though they were basically just copies of the F series with modifications/improvements. Them Ruskies sure knew how to steal a good design.
It was pretty interesting what the Russians were able to do with a lot less technology in the airplanes.

Pants
03-17-2006, 02:46 PM
http://www.flymig.com/forum/posts/1106877863.htm

Donger
03-17-2006, 02:47 PM
I'm sure you know this, but there are whole websites dedicated to the F-22 vs. Su-35/37 hypothetical dogfights.

1. Russian pilots versus American pilots. Sorry, but the training isn't comparable.

2. Non-stealth versus stealth. Kind hard to fight when you're already dead.

3. American avionics are still FAR superior to Russian.

4. Sure the SUs can do some really cool tricks, but the odds of the SUs surviving long enough for the "Cobra" and other stuff to come into play are very low.

The old adage of "he who sees the other guy first and shoots first, wins" is still very applicable to 5G aircraft.

Logical
03-17-2006, 02:50 PM
http://www.flymig.com/forum/posts/1106877863.htm


For what it worth "yzad" here is some guidelines: There is no Su-37 left in the World. It's gone, please make a note of it and if you could - do not refer to it again as to the live or production aircraft. There is no stealth - have been proven many times over and over. All US bombers (F-117, B-2 and I am sure the future ones) are clearly visible to Russian and Czechoslovakian (Tesla) made radars. Sukhoi fighters could employ stealth by stopping in the air - that's just as far as stealth goes. Su-27 and MiG-29 families aircraft outmaneuvers any modern US aircraft at least three times. If you'd like to say there will be no dog-fight in the future - I hope not but we'll have to to see. Sukhoi fighters successfully penetrated Kitty-Hawk's defense, won the Indian training (9:1) and God knows what else they could do. So, I feel really bad paying for the US fighter development as a taxpayer so far as we are producing last generation fighters relying on technology that exist somewhere else, not in a real World.
While to a very technical level that bolded statement is true, (i.e. an F117 will appear as a object about the size of a large bird on a radar screen, it is a highly self-deceiving thought.

Pants
03-17-2006, 02:51 PM
1. Russian pilots versus American pilots. Sorry, but the training isn't comparable.

2. Non-stealth versus stealth. Kind hard to fight when you're already dead.

3. American avionics are still FAR superior to Russian.

4. Sure the SUs can do some really cool tricks, but the odds of the SUs surviving long enough for the "Cobra" and other stuff to come into play are very low.

The old adage of "he who sees the other guy first and shoots first, wins" is still very applicable to 5G aircraft.
No such thing as stealth.

And I was purely talking plane vs plane. Nothing more. Imagine equally skilled pilots, ideal weather conditions, etc.

Logical
03-17-2006, 02:53 PM
No such thing as stealth.I refer you to my post one post before yours. I assure you as an engineer in the aerospace industry that this is not a good premise to work from.

Donger
03-17-2006, 02:54 PM
No such thing as stealth.

Pure stealth? No. All stealth aircraft have some RCS.

But, considering that the F-15Cs that got their asses handed to them recently didn't even detect the Raptors, and the C has one of the best radar systems in the world, forgive me for if I don't believe that the Russians would do any better (or even come close).

morphius
03-17-2006, 02:55 PM
I refer you to my post one post before yours. I assure you as an engineer in the aerospace industry that this is not a good premise to work from.
But I read it on the web, it HAS to be true!

Donger
03-17-2006, 02:55 PM
No such thing as stealth.

And I was purely talking plane vs plane. Nothing more. Imagine equally skilled pilots, ideal weather conditions, etc.

In a pure ACM, it would be a good fight. But that's not real world.

Radar Chief
03-17-2006, 02:56 PM
While to a very technical level that bolded statement is true, (i.e. an F117 will appear as a object about the size of a large bird on a radar screen, it is a highly self-deceiving thought.

Agreed.

Pants
03-17-2006, 02:57 PM
In a pure ACM, it would be a good fight. But that's not real world.
I would seriously pay good money to see competitive training exercises between Americans and russkies. F-22 vs Su-35.

kaplin42
03-17-2006, 03:02 PM
I was watching a discovery channel special on these planes a little while ago. They said that the radar on the planes is so advance that they can pick up enemy aircraft, launch their missles and bug out of the area before the enemy ever realizes there might be someone there.

HC_Chief
03-17-2006, 03:05 PM
I would seriously pay good money to see competitive training exercises between Americans and russkies. F-22 vs Su-35.

35 would be shot down prior to sight range. The SU avionics and in-flight radar systems would only detect the IR missiles prior to splash.

The days of the close-in dogfight are over. A2A combat isn't a fair fight - it's standoff weaponry nailing targets 25-150miles down range.

The SU-35 has superior thrust-vectoring; the rooskies excel in that technology. Problem is with their radar and guidance systems. They are way behind in that regard. Due to that fact, they'd be splashed w/o even knowing where the shots came from.

Hell, that holds true for facing Tomcats & the Phoenix AAM... Phoenix is the size of a Volkswagon van; launches at targets at 100+ miles.

Donger
03-17-2006, 03:05 PM
I would seriously pay good money to see competitive training exercises between Americans and russkies. F-22 vs Su-35.

I wouldn't pay much to see a slaughter.

Unless the Broncos were involved.

Donger
03-17-2006, 03:07 PM
35 would be shot down prior to sight range. The SU avionics and in-flight radar systems would only detect the IR missiles prior to splash.

The days of the close-in dogfight are over. A2A combat isn't a fair fight - it's standoff weaponry nailing targets 25-150miles down range.

The SU-35 has superior thrust-vectoring; the rooskies excel in that technology. Problem is with their radar and guidance systems. They are way behind in that regard. Due to that fact, they'd be splashed w/o even knowing where the shots came from.

Hell, that holds true for facing Tomcats & the Phoenix AAM... Phoenix is the size of a Volkswagon van; launches at targets at 100+ miles.

Thankfully, however, they learned the lesson from the Phantom not having a gun in the early days of Vietnam, since dogfights were "a thing of the past."

The Raptor has a good, ole Vulcan cannon, just in case.

HC_Chief
03-17-2006, 03:12 PM
Thankfully, however, they learned the lesson from the Phantom not having a gun in the early days of Vietnam, since dogfights were "a thing of the past."

The Raptor has a good, ole Vulcan cannon, just in case.

Yep ;)

ALWAYS better to be safe than sorry.

If all things were equal, without radar and missiles, just straight-up gunning by line of sight, the SU-35 would be one tough bird to take down. The Russian thrust-vectoring is superior in every way. Their vectoring is a full 360degree vector, whereas the F22 vectors on the Y axis only; and to a lesser angle.

Dinny Blues
03-17-2006, 03:14 PM
Only $125 million??????

Gimme two of 'em!!!!!!!

Dinny

Pants
03-17-2006, 03:14 PM
Yep ;)

ALWAYS better to be safe than sorry.

If all things were equal, without radar and missiles, just straight-up gunning by line of sight, the SU-35 would be one tough bird to take down. The Russian thrust-vectoring is superior in every way. Their vectoring is a full 360degree vector, whereas the F22 vectors on the Y axis only; and to a lesser angle.

Dude, WTF is with that avatar? :shake:

Donger
03-17-2006, 03:18 PM
Dude, WTF is with that avatar? :shake:

That's a picture of a Russian pilot without a g suit doing a Cobra in a SU-37.

Logical
03-17-2006, 03:20 PM
That's a picture of a Russian pilot without a g suit doing a Cobra in a SU-37.
ROFL

Radar Chief
03-17-2006, 03:25 PM
That's a picture of a Russian pilot without a g suit doing a Cobra in a SU-37.

Ah, makes sense. I thought it was a rather stressed lookín young man. ;)

Otter
03-17-2006, 03:30 PM
I'm not a West Point graduate but unless we're about to take on China in old school fronts combat seems like an expensive toy at this stage in the game.

AirForceChief
03-17-2006, 03:31 PM
I'll probably lay eyes on a couple on my way home from work here at Langley AFB...home of the first active Raptor squadrons. Ironically, my last assignment was Tydall AFB, where the first training squadron was stood up for the Raptor. The Raptor is following me...

Donger
03-17-2006, 03:33 PM
I'm not a West Point graduate but unless we're about to take on China in old school fronts combat seems like an expensive toy at this stage in the game.

It's a force multiplier. In other words, one Raptor can do what, say, ten F-15s can do. Dollar for dollar, it's cheaper.

That's the theory, anyway.

RedNFeisty
03-17-2006, 03:52 PM
Only 183 to replace the almost 500 F-15s that were in service at one time. That is worrisome.

Did you forget about the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Jet in production now!?!

Logical
03-17-2006, 03:54 PM
Did you forget about the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Jet in production now!?!JSF is supposed to replace the F-16, F14, A10, and AV-8B is even more worrisome as it is replacing planes that number in the mulitple 1000s with I believe around 600 aircraft.

RedNFeisty
03-17-2006, 04:02 PM
JSF is supposed to replace the F-16, F14, F18, A10, and AV-8B is even more worrisome as it is replacing planes that number in the mulitple 1000s with I believe around 600 aircraft.

I just read a report saying they were going to help replace the F-15's!!

I know nothing, never listen(read) me!!


Have a wonderfull weekend all, time for me to go and have some fun!!

Donger
03-17-2006, 04:14 PM
JSF is supposed to replace the A10

ROFL

Logical
03-17-2006, 04:16 PM
ROFLI know but:

http://www.jsf.mil/program/

U. S. Navy First day of war, survivable strike fighter aircraft to complement F/A-18E/F<LI class=BodyText>U.S. Air Force Multirole aircraft (primary-air-to-ground) to replace the F-16 and A-10 and complement the F/A-22 <LI class=BodyText>U.S. Marine Corps STOVL aircraft to replace the AV-8B and F/A-18 as their only strike fighter

Donger
03-17-2006, 04:18 PM
I know but:

http://www.jsf.mil/program/

Yeah, I know, but it's still amusing in a really dark way.

Logical
03-17-2006, 04:20 PM
Yeah, I know, but it's still amusing in a really dark way.

Yes, I have no idea how it would ever perform that mission.

Donger
03-17-2006, 04:27 PM
Yes, I have no idea how it would ever perform that mission.

The A-10 is scheduled to stay in service with the USAF until 2028, when it may be replaced by the Joint Strike Fighter. In 2005 the entire A-10 fleet will be upgraded to the "C" model that will include improved FCS, ECM, and the ability to carry smart bombs. However, the A-10 may stay in service indefinitely due to both its low cost and its unique capabilities which the Joint Strike Fighter simply cannot incorporate such as its cannon, ruggedness, and slow flying capabilities.

How ironic will it be if the Warthog is still flying long after the F-16s are long gone?

KCHawg
03-17-2006, 04:45 PM
In 2005 the entire A-10 fleet will be upgraded to the "C" model that will include improved FCS, ECM, and the ability to carry smart bombs.

The fleet isn't getting the upgrade yet, but with the mods we installed prior to Iraqi Freedom we can carry LGB's now.

Donger
03-17-2006, 04:48 PM
The fleet isn't getting the upgrade yet, but with the mods we installed prior to Iraqi Freedom we can carry LGB's now.

Cool. Can it self-lase targets?

KCHawg
03-17-2006, 05:00 PM
Yep, but the prefered method is to 'buddy lase'.

StcChief
03-17-2006, 05:29 PM
That's really cool. But...


YF23 > YF22

http://www.voodoo.cz/yf23/

:)

I was involved with YF23 when at MDC in 80s. bad a$$ plane

DanT
03-17-2006, 05:47 PM
Here's a 2002 Popular Mechanics article that explains how in the heck the Joint Strike Fighter will be able to handle so many different missions:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281471.html?page=1&c=y