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Dave Lane
03-20-2006, 02:38 PM
The Canoe Race:" A Modern Parable"

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (General Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing. So American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing. To prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the "Rowing Team Quality First Program", with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment.The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was outsourced to India!!!!

ROFL

Dave

Braincase
03-20-2006, 02:41 PM
Freakin' Brutal.


...and nonetheless true...

beavis
03-20-2006, 02:46 PM
Freakin' Brutal.


...and nonetheless true...
Yep. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

Lurch
03-20-2006, 02:49 PM
ROFL

:clap:

JimNasium
03-20-2006, 02:54 PM
Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark.

jspchief
03-20-2006, 02:56 PM
Personally, I think if GM would stop f*cking around with canoes, and just concentrate on autos, they might actually do a little better.

sedated
03-20-2006, 03:03 PM
sure they lost the race, but those execs made some money

StcChief
03-20-2006, 03:04 PM
Oh so true.....

Rain Man
03-20-2006, 03:10 PM
The consulting company had the right answer, but GM just didn't give it enough time.

Cochise
03-20-2006, 03:12 PM
You forgot that there are 67 quadrillion former rowers out there who are still making full salaries with full benefits while GM cuts corners to pass the savings on to you.

recxjake
03-20-2006, 03:22 PM
ha... Toyota sucks

Can't beat the Tahoe
Can't beat the Escalade
Can't beat the Yukon
Can't beat the Corvette
Can't beat the Silverado
Can't beat the Sierra
Can't beat the Solstice
Can't beat the Sky
Can't beat the H1, H2, or H3
Chevrolet the # 1 selling brand in America
GM the biggest and best car maker in the world
etc etc...

but hey keep rooting for the the people that live on the other side of the globe, speak another language and eat raw fish......

I can't wait untill the Toyota workers finally unionize and start ****ing up Toyo like they ****ed up GM, Ford and Chrysler

Donger
03-20-2006, 03:24 PM
GM the best car maker in the world


You've got to be f*cking kidding me.

Cochise
03-20-2006, 03:26 PM
but hey keep rooting for the the people that live on the other side of the globe, speak another language and eat raw fish......


It's good to know your point of view isn't driven by xenophobia or anything.

Cave Johnson
03-20-2006, 03:28 PM
but hey keep rooting for the the people that live on the other side of the globe, speak another language and eat raw fish......

I eat raw fish. Better not be calling me Japanese, or a loser, 'cause them's fightin words.

Saulbadguy
03-20-2006, 03:28 PM
I like raw fish.

Dave Lane
03-20-2006, 03:30 PM
I eat raw fish...

Dave

JBucc
03-20-2006, 03:35 PM
I like dog

recxjake
03-20-2006, 03:36 PM
You've got to be f*cking kidding me.

nope... people think toyota/Honda etc are so great.... but what people don't know is how much of an advantage they have....

No Unions
No retirees
younger workers--- less healthcare
great exchange rates
low japenese interest rates
cheap overesas labor

then people are stupid enough to buy a hybrid... it takes 5+ years to make your money back by buying a hybrid...

Pitt Gorilla
03-20-2006, 03:37 PM
nope... people think toyota/Honda etc are so great.... but what people don't know is how much of an advantage they have....

No Unions
No retirees
younger workers--- less healthcare
great exchange rates
low japenese interest rates
cheap overesas labor

then people are stupid enough to buy a hybrid... it takes 5+ years to make your money back by buying a hybrid...Maybe GM should look into their seemingly effective model.

Saulbadguy
03-20-2006, 03:43 PM
nope... people think toyota/Honda etc are so great.... but what people don't know is how much of an advantage they have....

No Unions
No retirees
younger workers--- less healthcare
great exchange rates
low japenese interest rates
cheap overesas labor

then people are stupid enough to buy a hybrid... it takes 5+ years to make your money back by buying a hybrid...
Why should we buy an inferior product? Sympathy?

Donger
03-20-2006, 03:44 PM
nope... people think toyota/Honda etc are so great.... but what people don't know is how much of an advantage they have....

No Unions
No retirees
younger workers--- less healthcare
great exchange rates
low japenese interest rates
cheap overesas labor

Errr, so what does the above have to do with why GM is a better car company?

then people are stupid enough to buy a hybrid... it takes 5+ years to make your money back by buying a hybrid...

I'd argue that most people who buy a hybrid are not doing so based purely on fiscal considerations.

htismaqe
03-20-2006, 03:48 PM
nope... people think toyota/Honda etc are so great.... but what people don't know is how much of an advantage they have....

No Unions
No retirees
younger workers--- less healthcare
great exchange rates
low japenese interest rates
cheap overesas labor

then people are stupid enough to buy a hybrid... it takes 5+ years to make your money back by buying a hybrid...

Having worked in and with private manufacturers for several years now (windows, hydraulics, steelworks), there's a reason they're using Kaizen or the Toyota production system.

The biggest advantage they have over GM is that they actually know how to run a business.

Cochise
03-20-2006, 03:48 PM
nope... people think toyota/Honda etc are so great.... but what people don't know is how much of an advantage they have....

No Unions
No retirees
younger workers--- less healthcare
great exchange rates
low japenese interest rates
cheap overesas labor


I don't give a rat's ass who has a competitive advantage. Whoever makes the better car for the money is going to get my sale. If company X does not have the best value for the money maybe they should work on that instead of trying to sell cars with sympathy.


then people are stupid enough to buy a hybrid... it takes 5+ years to make your money back by buying a hybrid...

At least after 5 years you will have made your money back, which is an option that regular cars do not offer. And by the way, most people end up driving a car for 5 years... unless it's a POS and they have to replace it.

Are you seriously this dense? You're the worst shill I have ever seen.

Donger
03-20-2006, 03:53 PM
Here's how the best car maker in the world does it:

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle

recxjake
03-20-2006, 03:57 PM
Why should we buy an inferior product? Sympathy?

the old GM cars and trucks were inferior.... but since 2000-2001... GM has totally changed there approach to car quality... especially interiors... go look at the new Tahoes... Case Closed

recxjake
03-20-2006, 03:59 PM
Here's how the best car maker in the world does it:

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota: Makes $1,488 per vehicle

due to all of the things i posted earlier... Toyota doesnt have to worry about any of these things now... wait 30 years and they will be in the same boat.... now you have to say... should I help out American families for Japenese families??? It shouldn't be a hard question to answer

Pitt Gorilla
03-20-2006, 04:02 PM
due to all of the things i posted earlier... Toyota doesnt have to worry about any of these things now... wait 30 years and they will be in the same boat.... now you have to say... should I help out American families for Japenese families??? It shouldn't be a hard question to answer
You're right. Where should I send the check to the guy making $50 an hour to put on the gas cap?

Donger
03-20-2006, 04:03 PM
GM has totally changed there approach to car quality...

Last time I checked, GM vehicles ranked at or very near the bottom when it comes to reliability. Has that changed?

recxjake
03-20-2006, 04:04 PM
You're right. Where should I send the check to the guy making $50 an hour to put on the gas cap?


No... if you havent noticed the UAW is in the process of taking huge wage cuts....

my dad... a non union GMAC 35 year old worker just gave up thousands...

OnTheWarpath58
03-20-2006, 04:05 PM
The biggest advantage they have over GM is that they actually know how to run a business.

:clap:

I think that pretty much covers it.......

recxjake
03-20-2006, 04:05 PM
Last time I checked, GM vehicles ranked at or very near the bottom when it comes to reliability. Has that changed?

its in the process...

http://www.gm.com/then_and_now/then_and_now.html

Donger
03-20-2006, 04:05 PM
due to all of the things i posted earlier... Toyota doesnt have to worry about any of these things now... wait 30 years and they will be in the same boat.... now you have to say... should I help out American families for Japenese families??? It shouldn't be a hard question to answer

If American vehicles were at comparable prices with comparable reliability and resale prices, yes, I'd buy them. Until then, I will not.

Rain Man
03-20-2006, 04:06 PM
You're right. Where should I send the check to the guy making $50 an hour to put on the gas cap?

This statement is like the scene in "The Life of Brian" where everyone is throwing rocks at some people to stone them to death, and then out of the crowd comes a person with a giant boulder to drop on one of the victims.

jiveturkey
03-20-2006, 04:06 PM
My wife's Toyota and my Toyota were both made here in the US.

Her's is a 97 with close to 100,000 miles. We've never had a single problem with it other than oil changes, tires and brakes.

Mine is a 2002 with 50k and falls into the same category.


Case Closed???

htismaqe
03-20-2006, 04:07 PM
due to all of the things i posted earlier... Toyota doesnt have to worry about any of these things now... wait 30 years and they will be in the same boat.... now you have to say... should I help out American families for Japenese families??? It shouldn't be a hard question to answer

Are you truly that naive?

Donger
03-20-2006, 04:08 PM
its in the process...

http://www.gm.com/then_and_now/then_and_now.html

Yeah, that was nice.

So, it didn't mention anything about GM vehicles improving in reliability, unless I missed it?

recxjake
03-20-2006, 04:09 PM
My wife's Toyota and my Toyota were both made here in the US.

Her's is a 97 with close to 100,000 miles. We've never had a single problem with it other than oil changes, tires and brakes.

Mine is a 2002 with 50k and falls into the same category.


Case Closed???


I have 100k on my grand am gt... never had a thing wrong with it besides getting an oil change ever 3000... your point??

recxjake
03-20-2006, 04:09 PM
If American vehicles were at comparable prices with comparable reliability and resale prices, yes, I'd buy them. Until then, I will not.

GM prices are 2000+ less then any comparable toyota

Donger
03-20-2006, 04:10 PM
GM prices are 2000+ less then any comparable toyota

You miss the point. People are willing to pay a premium for a Toyota because it is NOT comparable to a GM vehicle.

They are better.

recxjake
03-20-2006, 04:11 PM
You miss the point. People are willing to pay a premium for a Toyota because it is NOT comparable to a GM vehicle.

They are better.

they have betters cars.... not trucks or suv's.....

htismaqe
03-20-2006, 04:11 PM
No... if you havent noticed the UAW is in the process of taking huge wage cuts....

my dad... a non union GMAC 35 year old worker just gave up thousands...

The only reason this discussion is even taking place...

jiveturkey
03-20-2006, 04:13 PM
GM prices are 2000+ less then any comparable toyota
What is the comparable GM's resell value after 5 years?

Donger
03-20-2006, 04:14 PM
they have betters cars.... not trucks or suv's.....

Based on what criteria?

jspchief
03-20-2006, 04:14 PM
now you have to say... should I help out American families for Japenese families???

I'll start by helping out my family. And I can do that by investing our money in the best quality products available.

OnTheWarpath58
03-20-2006, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Donger
Last time I checked, GM vehicles ranked at or very near the bottom when it comes to reliability. Has that changed?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/reliability/reliability-trends-406/overview.htm

Sorry, link asks for password....

Here's the article....

Reliability: Progress has stalled




An analysis of our Annual Car Reliability Surveys over the past five years shows that overall problem rates have reached a plateau for newer cars, especially Asian makes. It could indicate that the most reliable new cars have reached a practical limit as to how trouble-free they can become.

According to our latest (2005) subscriber survey, Japanese and Korean vehicles still have the fewest problems on average: 12 problems per 100 vehicles. This number, however, has held steady for the newest models since 2002, when they improved from 15 problems per 100 in the previous year. On average, Asian vehicles are by far the most reliable, but their improvement has slowed.

U.S. makes had been edging closer to the Asians in reliability, but they, too, have stalled. In our latest survey, domestic makes had an average problem rate of 18 problems per 100 vehicles, not that different from last year's 17. The rate has been about the same since 2003.

European makes, recently the most unreliable overall, remained steady at 21 problems per 100 vehicles. They have had either 20 or 21 problems per 100 vehicles in each of the past four years.


first-year blues

Our survey, conducted in the spring of 2005, drew just over a million responses from subscribers to Consumer Reports and ConsumerReports.org. It is the largest survey of its kind to gauge reliability. We ask owners to tell us about serious problems they have experienced with their vehicles in the preceding 12 months. The responses allow us to calculate the problem rates covered here, to present detailed reliability ratings and to predict how new cars will hold up.

The most recent survey results again indicate that it is best to wait before buying a newly introduced or redesigned vehicle. Among the worst models in our predicted reliability ratings, about half were redesigned or introduced in 2005. In an analysis we did for the October 2005 issue, we found that problem rates for such models dropped an average of 20 percent from the first model year of a new introduction to the following year. Even after the second year, reliability continues to improve.

The Mini Cooper is a good example of that. It had been too unreliable for us to recommend since its introduction in 2002. But in the 2005 survey, its predicted reliability rating improved to average, so we can now recommend it.

We've also collected sufficient survey data on hybrid vehicles to predict that these vehicles, despite their complexities, are very reliable. So far, all hybrids from Ford, Honda, Toyota, and Lexus have shown above-average reliability. Even the oldest hybrids for which we have data, the 2000 Honda Insight and the 2001 Toyota Prius, continue to be very reliable.


THE best and worst vehicles

While Asian cars continued to be more reliable overall than U.S. and European models, the results vary significantly within each group.

When we look at the most and least problem-free vehicles for each of the eight model years covered in our latest survey (see Problem-free vehicles), the best models are from Japanese makers. But Japanese models also account for two of the worst models for their years: the 2004 and 2005 Infiniti QX56.

The best models get very few complaints from their owners. About 95 percent or more of the owners of the 2006 Lexus GS, 2006 Infiniti M35/M45, 2005 Toyota Prius, and 2004 Mazda MX-5 Miata reported having no problems during the survey period.


HOW THE MAKES FARE With AGE

Using data from the past five surveys, we compared how the vehicle lines from six major manufacturers (Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, and Volkswagen) fared over time. We combined manufacturers' problem rates for one-year-old cars from each survey year and did the same for two-year-old vehicles, and so on.

We found that Toyota and Honda models have significantly fewer problems than cars from other automakers (see the chart below). Overall, eight-year-old Toyotas are about as reliable as three-year-old Fords and Chryslers and two-year-old Volkswagens. Toyotas have about half the problems of Volkswagens when new and only a quarter of the problems when five years old.

On average, five-year-old Asian vehicles had 44 problems per 100 vehicles; American, 89 per 100; and European, 97.

Among the U.S. automakers, Ford consistently showed lower problem rates than Chrysler and GM for older vehicles.

Problems increased at about the same rate relative to vehicle age in the 2005 survey as they did in the 2001 survey. But the lower problem rate in the 2005 survey meant overall problems were lower for older cars as well. For example, in the 2001 survey, the average five-year-old vehicle had 85 problems per 100 vehicles, about four times that of the average new model, which had 21. In the 2005 survey, the average five-year-old vehicle had about 72 problems per 100 vehicles, about four and a half times the problem rate of the newest model, which had 16.

Overall, five-year-old vehicles in our 2005 survey have 15 percent fewer problems than those in our 2001 survey.

While it seems clear that Asian new cars overall have reached a reliability plateau, it is unclear whether U.S. and European cars have as well. Statistically, the change in U.S. and European problem rates in our recent surveys is small. Because both the models themselves and the number of models on the market change from year to year, it is difficult to know whether the trend will continue.

The good news is that older vehicles continued to have fewer problems overall for almost all automakers. One thing we can tell is that the U.S. and European automakers have a ways to go to catch up with Asian automakers' reliability, even with the Asians standing still.


Toyotas and Hondas age more gracefully



Using results from the 2001-2005 surveys, we analyzed how vehicles from six major automakers typically fare as they age. We combined problem rates of one- to eight-year-old cars from each survey year. On average, Toyota and Honda vehicles have far fewer problems than their competitors as they get older. Ford vehicles are closest to the average

Dave Lane
03-20-2006, 04:17 PM
No... if you havent noticed the UAW is in the process of taking huge wage cuts....

my dad... a non union GMAC 35 year old worker just gave up thousands...

Can they pay him for a retroactive abortion?

Dave

Taco John
03-20-2006, 04:18 PM
ha... Toyota sucks

Can't beat the Tahoe
Can't beat the Escalade
Can't beat the Yukon
Can't beat the Corvette
Can't beat the Silverado
Can't beat the Sierra
Can't beat the Solstice
Can't beat the Sky
Can't beat the H1, H2, or H3
Chevrolet the # 1 selling brand in America
GM the biggest and best car maker in the world
etc etc...



And yet the Toyota is the one in my driveway...

Cochise
03-20-2006, 04:18 PM
they have betters cars.... not trucks or suv's.....

So you're telling me that the average S-10 stays on the road longer than a Tacoma?

Hell... I drive a domstic light truck right now. I've not had a problem with it at all and it's got 90k miles on it. But the thing is, I know tons of other people with the same truck who have had nothing but problems. What's that leave me to think? That I got a good truck, or that I got lucky?

Either way, even though I got a pretty good vehicle from this maker, when it seems like 9 out of 10 are lemons my chances of buying from this maker again are slim to none.

Dave Lane
03-20-2006, 04:21 PM
And yet the Toyota is the one in my driveway...


And mine though its one of their othe divisions...

Dave

Taco John
03-20-2006, 04:24 PM
due to all of the things i posted earlier... Toyota doesnt have to worry about any of these things now... wait 30 years and they will be in the same boat.... now you have to say... should I help out American families for Japenese families??? It shouldn't be a hard question to answer



How about asking the question "how can I help out my family by buying the best vehicle for the price that I can afford?"

We did that by buying a Toyota. We knew we were getting a quality vehicle for a fair price, and so far that's proven to be the case.

I've owned GM before... I expect I will again someday. But to say they're better than Toyota just because your Dad works there isn't very compelling.

4th and Long
03-20-2006, 04:30 PM
You forgot that there are 67 quadrillion former rowers out there who are still making full salaries with full benefits while GM cuts corners to pass the savings on to you.
Are you're implying that people, like my father, who put in 30 years with GM, don't deserve a retirement package?

4321

OnTheWarpath58
03-20-2006, 04:32 PM
Another article, from the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030102318.html

COchief
03-20-2006, 04:34 PM
I have 100k on my grand am gt... never had a thing wrong with it besides getting an oil change ever 3000... your point??

You drive a grand am and you are a fanboy of GM? So you love your car's sweet interior and (how much crappy plastic can we bolt to the sides) exterior? Jesus, those are pieces of shit.

And for your whole "toyota can't beat..."

5-6 or six of those vehicles are all based on the same platform. Did you really list GM and GMC vehicles seperately? How pathetic. GM sucks balls, just like your dad.

Wow you are a moron, I had to come back and edit, you said:

"Can't beat the Tahoe
Can't beat the Escalade
Can't beat the Yukon
Can't beat the Corvette
Can't beat the Silverado
Can't beat the Sierra
Can't beat the Solstice
Can't beat the Sky
Can't beat the H1, H2, or H3"

So lets see here, Tahoe/Escalade/Yukon/H2 all same car. With same chasis & engine as Sierra & Silverado. So that's 1. Then you have Solstice/Sky, same car dumbass and that is only being hyped because it's the only non 4x4 to come out of GM that doesn't look like an maliimpalamaxx. The RAV4 owns the H3 up/down/left/right in every dimension possible.

So basically you have the vette, which I will give you. So congrats to GM out of probably 30-50 models they win ONE.

jspchief
03-20-2006, 04:35 PM
Are you're implying that people, like my father, who put in 30 years with GM, don't deserve a retirement package?

4321Deserve has nothing to do with it. If a company sets up a retirement structure that is such a drain it leads to long term loss, it's poor business.

splatbass
03-20-2006, 04:36 PM
my dad... a non union GMAC 35 year old worker just gave up thousands...

Your Dad is 35 years old? What are you, 10?

Dave Lane
03-20-2006, 04:38 PM
Deserve has nothing to do with it. If a company sets up a retirement structure that is such a drain it leads to long term loss, it's poor business.

No just his dad doesn't

Dave

StcChief
03-20-2006, 04:46 PM
After being burned by the '74 Vega aka The Vegrant
1978 Sunbird (Sunturd)
1981 Omni (The car of the Year) POS only thing it had going for it was the VW 4 cyl engine.

----3 strikes and you are out.

No more GM,Dodge, Fords

My driveway has been Japanese every since.1982....

Someone will have to prove they are better car,
I'm not gonna take the TV Ad as proof.

No professional grade, heartbeat bs.


n't beat the Escalade
Can't beat the Yukon
Can't beat the Corvette
Can't beat the Silverado
Can't beat the Sierra
Can't beat the Solstice
Can't beat the Sky
Can't beat the H1, H2, or H3
Chevrolet the # 1 selling brand in America
GM the biggest and best car maker in the world
etc etc...

htismaqe
03-20-2006, 04:46 PM
You drive a grand am and you are a fanboy of GM? So you love your car's sweet interior and (how much crappy plastic can we bolt to the sides) exterior? Jesus, those are pieces of shit.

And for your whole "toyota can't beat..."

5-6 or six of those vehicles are all based on the same platform. Did you really list GM and GMC vehicles seperately? How pathetic. GM sucks balls, just like your dad.

Wow you are a moron, I had to come back and edit, you said:

"Can't beat the Tahoe
Can't beat the Escalade
Can't beat the Yukon
Can't beat the Corvette
Can't beat the Silverado
Can't beat the Sierra
Can't beat the Solstice
Can't beat the Sky
Can't beat the H1, H2, or H3"

So lets see here, Tahoe/Escalade/Yukon/H2 all same car. With same chasis & engine as Sierra & Silverado. So that's 1. Then you have Solstice/Sky, same car dumbass and that is only being hyped because it's the only non 4x4 to come out of GM that doesn't look like an maliimpalamaxx. The RAV4 owns the H3 up/down/left/right in every dimension possible.

So basically you have the vette, which I will give you. So congrats to GM out of probably 30-50 models they win ONE.

I worked for a GM sub in the late 80's/early 90's and the parts we built were used in both the Trans Am and Camaro. 95% identical, down to the electrical harnesses.

Ultra Peanut
03-20-2006, 04:50 PM
The biggest advantage they have over GM is that they actually know how to run a business.But GM IS THE BEST!

Ultra Peanut
03-20-2006, 04:53 PM
Your Dad is 35 years old? What are you, 10?That would explain a lot.

Of course, without him, I wouldn't even be reading this thread. ROFL

Calcountry
03-20-2006, 04:55 PM
ha... Toyota sucks

Can't beat the Tahoe
Can't beat the Escalade
Can't beat the Yukon
Can't beat the Corvette
Can't beat the Silverado
Can't beat the Sierra
Can't beat the Solstice
Can't beat the Sky
Can't beat the H1, H2, or H3
Chevrolet the # 1 selling brand in America
GM the biggest and best car maker in the world
etc etc...

but hey keep rooting for the the people that live on the other side of the globe, speak another language and eat raw fish......

I can't wait untill the Toyota workers finally unionize and start ****ing up Toyo like they ****ed up GM, Ford and ChryslerAnd what is wrong with eating sashimi?

Ultra Peanut
03-20-2006, 04:58 PM
And what is wrong with eating sashimi?IT AINT AMERICAN THATS WHAT

damn furriners

Cochise
03-20-2006, 05:01 PM
Deserve has nothing to do with it. If a company sets up a retirement structure that is such a drain it leads to long term loss, it's poor business.

Exactly. Like someone already said, if you pay somebody $50 an hour to put the sticker in the window, it's going to catch up to you sooner or later.

I will buy American out of patriotism or sympathy on small ticket items, that's fine. But when it comes to a $30k investment, and the prospect of 4 digit repair bills and a difference in service life measured in years... that's a little different than choosing the white sweatsocks made here vs the ones in Taiwan.

Adept Havelock
03-20-2006, 05:05 PM
Excellent parable. Sad but true.

Recxjake shows his xenophobia yet again. :rolleyes:

Sashimi is good stuff.

Cochise
03-20-2006, 05:09 PM
I'm curious recxjake... how is it that you are a Republican shill, but also a union labor shill?

It would seem the two groups with their hand up your arse moving your mouth are diametrically opposed.

Kerberos
03-20-2006, 05:09 PM
Got 240K miles on my 94 Suburban and the ONLY major thing that has gone wrong is a sheared pinion and ring in the rear axle.

Autos whether from overseas or domestic they will only last as long as you take care of them.

My wife and I are buying a 06 Trailblazer because it actually has room for my big ass. Drove a Honda CRV and they had to call out the national guard to come help get me out. Nice drive but uncomfortable as hell. I refuse to sacrifice my comfort for gas milage.

Of course our decision to buy GM was because the WU's dad is retired GM plant employee in Michigan so we get the GMS pricing! :D


Just my.02

.

Rain Man
03-20-2006, 05:12 PM
I have an acquaintance who has an unusual outlook on cars. He's about 45 years old, and he wouldn't care he drove the Oscar Mayer Weinermobile as long as it had the biggest engine possible. He doesn't care about looks at all.

I repeat. At all.

He cares about handling, but that's 5 percent of his decision. He's hugely into power, and that's all he thinks about.

It was kind of funny, because a couple of years back he and I were both buying cars at the same time. I bought the BMW, and (I kid you not), he wouldn't even acknowledge it. It was beneath his contempt to even look at a car with under 200 horsepower. He wouldn't say 'nice car' and wouldn't even come over to look at it when they were both in the parking lot.

He was extremely proud of his car, though, and shared his decision-making process. When his wife okayed getting a new vehicle, he basically found the engine that he wanted, and it happened to be in a high-end Corvette, so that was the car he wanted. When his wife pointed out that they had two kids, and that a two-seat car was not feasible, he said that he wouldn't buy a new car, then. After haggling back and forth, he finally figured out that there was some special model of Camaro or Trans Am or something that had this particular engine in it, so he agreed to buy that car.

I will acknowledge that different people have different tastes, but god almighty, that car is ridiculous. It looks like a car that a 15 year-old designed and took to production. It's all hood scoop and plastic fairings and fancy little body thingies sticking out all over the place, and frankly, I think it looks ridiculous. But he didn't care at all, and even admitted that it wasn't "the look" that he would like. But it had his engine in it, and therefore that was the only car that he would buy. It didn't matter that he's a 45 year-old buying a car that looks like a Hot Wheels concept.

He's a nice guy, but wow. That's just a whole different mentality.

Boozer
03-20-2006, 05:14 PM
On a recent GM thread I mentioned a positive experience I had with a rented Malibu. In the interest of full disclosure, I should relate my recent experience with a rented Buick Lacrosse: It sucked big fat donkey dick.

While the whole thing blew goats, the exterior styling deserves special mention. Do they expect anyone under the age of 50 to want to buy this?
http://images.securedwebform.com/stock/300/buick/lacrosse/2006/4sa.jpg

If this car appeals to you, you're probably late for Bingo.

Rain Man
03-20-2006, 05:14 PM
Exactly. Like someone already said, if you pay somebody $50 an hour to put the sticker in the window, it's going to catch up to you sooner or later.

Someone had better warn the airlines.

Oh. Too late.

fan4ever
03-20-2006, 05:15 PM
Will NEVER buy another GM product. Bought two in a row, last one a G1500 Van, equipped it for my handicapped son and got the extended warranty. It's been an absolute piece of crap since about the 4th month. It's a '96 with close to 100,000 miles. Had to replace two fuel pumps, have the electrical re-wired, replace the alternator, have major suspension work done, have the air conditioner compressor replaced, had to glue/bolt my armrests on the doors, all the little air conditioning louvers are broken/falling out, drivers chair weld broke off of floor, had the radiator replaced, and two years ago, the engine blew on me going up a hill outside of lovely Bakersfield...in the middle of the summer...while on vacation with my kids in the car, including my son in the wheelchair. Yeah, I'm all brocken up about this.

Sincerely sorry about the folks out of work, but fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice and I'm gonna buy a Toyota.

Cochise
03-20-2006, 05:17 PM
On a recent GM thread I mentioned a positive experience I had with a rented Malibu. In the interest of full disclosure, I should relate my recent experience with a rented Buick Lacrosse: It sucked big fat donkey dick.

While the whole thing blew goats, the exterior styling deserves special mention. Do they expect anyone under the age of 50 to want to buy this?
http://images.securedwebform.com/stock/300/buick/lacrosse/2006/4sa.jpg

While I generally agree that Buicks do have that geriatric look, generally speaking, that one's not bad. It looks like they are borrowing heavily from the Mercedes frontend look though.

Boozer
03-20-2006, 05:18 PM
While I generally agree that Buicks do have that geriatric look, generally speaking, that one's not bad. It looks like they are borrowing heavily from the Mercedes frontend look though.

I don't think the picture does it justice. I remember walking out to it in the parking lot during daylight and wondering if I could get back to the hotel in time for Matlock.

Rain Man
03-20-2006, 05:20 PM
Buick really needs to ditch their "signature grille" look. It just screams "grandfather".

It looks like that particular model may not have it, though, which is a huge step in the right direction.

Cochise
03-20-2006, 05:21 PM
I don't think the picture does it justice. I remember walking out to it in the parking lot during daylight and wondering if I could get back to the hotel in time for Matlock.

ROFL

I will say one thing about Buicks though, the older people in my extended family drive them, and they always seem to ride really smooth.

Rain Man
03-20-2006, 05:24 PM
There was one car that Buick really did right. The Reatta, back in the late 80s, was a pretty cool-looking car. It was a little two-seater that had a great back end. I would've bought one if I could afford it.

I can't find a picture that will do it justice, unfortunately.

http://www.gmphotostore.com/images/53218390_pr.jpg

Donger
03-20-2006, 05:25 PM
Another article, from the Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030102318.html

ROFL

Troubled U.S. automakers reported a slump in February sales yesterday, the same day that Consumer Reports' closely-watched annual car-shopping guide placed nine Japanese brands in its top-10 ranking of vehicle reliability.

Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus led the magazine's annual survey as the most reliable brand; Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi and Subaru rounded out the top five. Only one American brand -- Mercury, owned by Ford Motor Co. -- cracked the top 10, at No. 8. Most of the other American brands huddled around the center, with Ford ranking 16th and General Motors Corp.'s Chevrolet dropping 10 places to 24, two notches below Cadillac.

Boozer
03-20-2006, 05:29 PM
There was one car that Buick really did right. The Reatta, back in the late 80s, was a pretty cool-looking car. It was a little two-seater that had a great back end. I would've bought one if I could afford it.

I can't find a picture that will do it justice, unfortunately.

http://www.gmphotostore.com/images/53218390_pr.jpg

I've seen that one...nifty car. Probably the goofiest looking GM product in recent years was the Oldsmobile Aurora. It's like they said "I need a really stupid looking rear end for this car....Get me Pontiac's design division on the phone!"
http://www.carcovers.com/photos/oldsmobile_aurora_without_cover.jpg

I will say one thing about Buicks though, the older people in my extended family drive them, and they always seem to ride really smooth.

True that. This one did ride smooth.

Donger
03-20-2006, 05:34 PM
Wow.

North American Workforce

Source: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005

GM:

White collar: 36,000
Production: 106,000
Retirees: 460,000

Toyota:

White collar: 17,000
Production: 21,000
Retirees: 1,600

Rain Man
03-20-2006, 05:39 PM
I actually liked the look of the Oldsmobile Aurora. My wife and I drove a used one back when we bought the Taurus, though, and it had a horrible ride. We asked the dealer if there was a problem that needed to be fixed, and he said that that was its normal ride. I don't believe that for a second, but nonetheless, we didn't buy the car.

chiefs4me
03-20-2006, 05:40 PM
My husband drives a chevy, never had a problem, my son drives a chevy, only minor, small change problems, MY FORD truck has never had a problem......I will never drive anything but a Ford...it's all in what you like, now don't you boys all feel big for ganging up on him like this....:rolleyes:and it's all over the make of a freaking car....ROFL

Calcountry
03-20-2006, 05:40 PM
IT AINT AMERICAN THATS WHAT

damn furrinersYou have got to be kidding. It is American as apple pie, but a whole lot better for you.

Donger
03-20-2006, 05:41 PM
My husband drives a chevy, never had a problem, my son drives a chevy, only minor, small change problems, MY FORD truck has never had a problem......I will never drive anything but a Ford...it's all in what you like, now don't you boys all feel big for ganging up on him like this....:rolleyes:and it's all over the make of a freaking car....ROFL

No one is ganging up on him, you f*cking idiot. He made some rather interesting claims and has yet to back them up with facts, only opinion.

chiefs4me
03-20-2006, 05:53 PM
ah forget it, not worth my time..

Saulbadguy
03-20-2006, 05:54 PM
ah forget it, not worth my time..
Mike Madonna..er..Modano SUCKS.

Ultra Peanut
03-20-2006, 05:54 PM
You have got to be kidding.Never.

Donger
03-20-2006, 05:55 PM
ah forget it, not worth my time..

I doubt your time has any tangible value whatsoever.

chiefs4me
03-20-2006, 05:57 PM
Mike Madonna..er..Modano SUCKS.








ROFL....I gotta remember that one

listopencil
03-20-2006, 06:13 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar4153_30.gif



I can't believe no one has knocked out those ****ing beaver teeth yet.

chiefs4me
03-20-2006, 06:18 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar4153_30.gif



I can't believe no one has knocked out those ****ing beaver teeth yet.



I can, I don't see anybody being stupid enough to try and take out the stars captain.....:D

splatbass
03-20-2006, 06:21 PM
Wow.

North American Workforce

Source: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005

GM:

White collar: 36,000
Production: 106,000
Retirees: 460,000

Toyota:

White collar: 17,000
Production: 21,000
Retirees: 1,600


To be fair, Toyota hasn't built cars in North America long enough to build up a huge amount of retirees. GM has.

listopencil
03-20-2006, 06:25 PM
I can, I don't see anybody being stupid enough to try and take out the stars captain.....:D


I'd like to see somebody try.

Logical
03-20-2006, 06:42 PM
due to all of the things i posted earlier... Toyota doesnt have to worry about any of these things now... wait 30 years and they will be in the same boat.... now you have to say... should I help out American families for Japenese families??? It shouldn't be a hard question to answer

Just because there are very few retirees in the US does not mean Toyota as a whole has very few retirees. Toyota Worldwide has approximately 1/2 the retirees as GM. But GM was a much bigger company for many, many years so you would expect that. It is to Toyota's credit they went robotic far earlier than GM and have reaped the huge savings, increased productivity, and better quality that resulted.

chiefs4me
03-20-2006, 07:55 PM
I'd like to see somebody try.







don't tell me..avs fan??:cuss:

Dave Lane
03-20-2006, 09:14 PM
To be fair, Toyota hasn't built cars in North America long enough to build up a huge amount of retirees. GM has.

I am surprised at the white to production ratio for Toyota I would have expected a much different ratio.


Dave

Halfcan
03-20-2006, 09:20 PM
Jap cars have been voted number one across the board by Consumer Reports-and last much longer, with less depreciation.

GM is still better than Ford though if that helps.

Halfcan
03-20-2006, 09:24 PM
ha... Toyota sucks

Can't beat the Tahoe
Can't beat the Escalade
Can't beat the Yukon
Can't beat the Corvette
Can't beat the Silverado
Can't beat the Sierra
Can't beat the Solstice
Can't beat the Sky
Can't beat the H1, H2, or H3
Chevrolet the # 1 selling brand in America
GM the biggest and best car maker in the world
etc etc...

but hey keep rooting for the the people that live on the other side of the globe, speak another language and eat raw fish......

I can't wait untill the Toyota workers finally unionize and start ****ing up Toyo like they ****ed up GM, Ford and Chrysler

Your list includes cars ranked at the bottom of just about every car magazine. Big gas guzzling dinosaurs, that lose most of their value within 5 years-after 100k in miles-will be worth 10 cents on the dollar.

recxjake
03-20-2006, 10:15 PM
Your list includes cars ranked at the bottom of just about every car magazine. Big gas guzzling dinosaurs, that lose most of their value within 5 years-after 100k in miles-will be worth 10 cents on the dollar.

ahh the news tahoe's get over 22 mpg along with the new trucks coming out in June....

recxjake
03-20-2006, 10:20 PM
ooops in a thread earlier i said my dad was 35.... he worked for GMAC for 35 years and gave up 1000 bucks a month in pension when he retires next year....

i know that if any of you were in my shoes you would pushin GM products too!

GM doesn't need handouts... they just need a level playing field to compete against Toyota....

The have started over....

the new Tahoes and Yukon's and Escalades are just the start of what GM is coming out with....

pontiac solstice and saturn sky are awesome

the new Camaro comes out next summer

the brand new Silverado's come out this summer... this alone will save GM


the stock price is 20 bucks a share... buy now this time next year it will around 50!

Halfcan
03-20-2006, 10:41 PM
That is what they said about Ford stock a couple of years ago.

Simplex3
03-20-2006, 10:47 PM
ooops in a thread earlier i said my dad was 35.... he worked for GMAC for 35 years and gave up 1000 bucks a month in pension when he retires next year....

i know that if any of you were in my shoes you would pushin GM products too!

GM doesn't need handouts... they just need a level playing field to compete against Toyota....
Yes, because tariffs and artificial price increases enforced by the feds isn't enough. Oh, wait, I forgot the federally funded Buy American ad campaigns.

The playing field is level. GM could have managed the relationship with the unions better but they were too stupid to. The reason the playing field isn't level, in your estimation, is because the American auto makers have been f**king it up so badly for so long.

the new Camaro comes out next summer
ROFL The "new" Camaro? I just thank God you aren't from Kansas City, we get enough s**t about 'Cameros' and mullets as it is without having some tool like you representing us.

the stock price is 20 bucks a share... buy now this time next year it will around 50!
Then put your money where your mouth is, sell everything and buy 4 shares of GM stock.

Rausch
03-20-2006, 11:00 PM
Yes, because tariffs and artificial price increases enforced by the feds isn't enough. Oh, wait, I forgot the federally funded Buy American ad campaigns.

The playing field is level. GM could have managed the relationship with the unions better but they were too stupid to. The reason the playing field isn't level, in your estimation, is because the American auto makers have been f**king it up so badly for so long.

American automotive companies know that worst case, the Gub'ment will bail them out just like we did the airlines.

If the American consumer doesn't provide the profits the American tax payer will.

Wait. They're the same people... :hmmm:

Simplex3
03-20-2006, 11:03 PM
American automotive companies know that worst case, the Gub'ment will bail them out just like we did the airlines.

If the American consumer doesn't provide the profits the American tax payer will.

Wait. They're the same people... :hmmm:
ROFL

Hey, wait... that's me. F**K! :cuss:

Actually, I just finished my taxes. I made just over $5k last year. Hehe. Owning your own company rules.

Rausch
03-20-2006, 11:12 PM
ROFL

Hey, wait... that's me. F**K! :cuss:


Exactly.

Average American: "I'm not buying one of those POS cars."

US Gub'ment: "Automotive plants are used in war time to hammer out everything from tanks to transport vehicles.

You'll buy those ****ing cars or we'll take your tax money to support them anyway. You might as well have a car to show for it."

Actually, I just finished my taxes. I made just over $5k last year. Hehe. Owning your own company rules.

Working on that...

recxjake
03-21-2006, 06:41 AM
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA...

HolyHandgernade
03-21-2006, 06:49 AM
Do you mean you wonder why he couldn't find a good paying white collar job? Afterall, don't you hate unions?

-HH

recxjake
03-21-2006, 07:05 AM
Do you mean you wonder why he couldn't find a good paying white collar job? Afterall, don't you hate unions?

-HH


i dont hate unions at all..... for instance i think employees at walmart need a union.... but at GM they have taken advantage of the company... like the "jobs bank".... did you know that if GM shuts down a plant they have to pay the employee 95% of their pay untill the new rounds of union negotiations... sept 2007

i think in the long run people are going to wish that GM, Ford and Chrysler were still around in 10 years.... then we will see the true effect of Toyo/Honda

recxjake
03-21-2006, 07:09 AM
The Facts... just read it.....


Our Buy American Mention of the Week!
by Roger Simmermaker
May 7, 2005


Defense, defense, defense. That's all that General Motors, and Detroit in general, can play these days. Many American car and truck buyers, and many of those in the media who write about their buying habits, should know better than to spew their venom at GM for their recent financial troubles. It might be different if the reasons that GM continues to lose market share weren't largely beyond their control, but they are. As an increasing number of Americans spend their money on and drive around in Toyotas and Hondas, the answer to the question "Why doesn't GM have the money to build a car more to my liking?" seems to evade them.

As if the impending health care crisis in America was no clue at all, some even bring up the fact that GM spends over $1,500 per automobile just to provide health care to their employees, retirees and their dependents. By comparison, Toyota and Honda spend only a few hundred dollars per automobile, mainly because GM has been operating in the United States since the invention of the automobile and Toyota, for instance, only built their first plant here in 1987. Yet they still accuse that GM is "living in the past" even though Cadillac now outsells Mercedes, The Chevy Impala beat the Toyota Camry in initial quality and Consumer Reports detailed how Buick now beats BMW in reliability.

But in these times where low-wage Walmart has now replaced high-wage General Motors as the number one employer in the U.S., most Americans get a pass for not having the time to dig deeply enough to understand what is really going on since a large portion of America is working longer hours for lower wages and is just trying to put in enough time at work to make ends meet.

It may seem that your car-buying decision would have no effect on your personal prosperity or that of your country, but it does. It really does matter if you buy an American-made Chevrolet instead of an American-made Toyota.

When you buy an American-made Chevy, you not only support more American workers, but also American investors, owners and stockholders. When you buy an American-made Toyota, you may help your Uncle Bob if he's on Toyota's payroll, but you're hurting Uncle Sam since American companies pay about three times as many taxes to the U.S. Treasury compared to foreign-owned companies. That's something to think about the next time you hear we have to cut benefits or raise the retirement age simply because the U.S. Treasury doesn't have enough funds to meet its obligations to Social Security or other benefit programs.

General Motors doesn't have enough money to meet its obligations either.. And it's for the very honorable reason that they have promised adequate health care and pensions to their workers who gave their lives to a company that has in turn supported so many American livelihood's for so long. If we stop buying GM products, we de-fund American retirees and prevent them from contributing to the American economy. Sure, you have a choice in buying a foreign car over an American one, but if you buy the foreign car, you will likely cause a retiree to make a choice between food and medicine. That very choice is a daily one for many senior citizens in this country right now.

Think it's not possible? Think again. The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) has already taken over several pensions from failed American companies in the steel and airline industries and beyond. When these companies declare bankruptcy and a failure to meet their obligations, this government-funded agency - which is also running in the red - takes over and gives seniors roughly half of what they were promised by the now bankrupt company.

This results in a hidden cost to taxpayers since any shortfall in government revenue must be made up eventually in higher taxes or benefit cuts or both. So there you have it. Failure to find a GM (or other American) automobile you can stand will negatively affect your standard of living in one way or another. And you thought that since you didn't work in the car industry it didn't affect you. Think again.

The Detroit News recently published the facts, daring to go against the deceiving "foreign cars are built there and American cars are built there" rhetoric that implies it makes no difference if you buy an American-made Honda instead of an American-made Pontiac. The newspaper reported that American and foreign automakers alike were playing the"Made in USA Card" to attract buyers. And you thought consumers didn't care. Poll after poll has shown Americans are even willing to pay more to buy American, let alone when quality and price are similar or equal. Most Americans advocate fair play and equality but eventually they will find out - possibly the hard way - that neither of these attributes apply in the automobile marketplace unless those Americans that should know better start buying American cars again. I'm not asking or expecting the die-hard import buyer crowd to stop their silly griping and buy American. GM's future doesn't depend on them. It depends on those Americans that really should know better.

As the Detroit News article boldly pointed out, GM has 82 major plants in the United States, while Toyota, Honda and Nissan combined have only 24.. GM has more American salaried workers than Toyota has total American workers. With 194,000 employees in America, even after hard times, General Motors still employs six times as many Americans as Toyota, seven times as many as Honda, and 12 times as many as Nissan. As Business Week pointed out in 2002 (the last data I have seen on the subject), each auto-assembly job created by an American company also creates 6.9 other American jobs, where each auto-assembly job created by a foreign company creates only 5.5 other American jobs. This is true simply because American automobile companies get more of their parts from America.

And what about those foreign transplant factories? A 1995 United Auto Workers study concluded that these foreign automobile companies operating in the United States caused at least 500,000 Americans to lose their jobs. I would hate to think of what that total is today.

The new May 9, 2005 issue of Business Week details how GM contributes to the pockets of their assembly workers to the tune of $8.7 billion a year and either directly or indirectly supports the employment of 900,000 Americans. Business Week also claims it is "undeniable" that what is bad for GM is bad for America, pointing to a 54-day strike in 1998 that cut that quarter's economic growth for the entire country a whole percentage point.

Many point to bad management decisions in the past to justify their reasoning for not supporting GM, claiming it is it "widely known" that they made horrible cars in the 1970's. Its amazing people who weren't even driving age in the 1970's (this author wasn't) want to penalize GM for mismanagement as they overlook any mismanagement by other car companies they anxiously spend their money with instead. I have never heard anyone vehemently refuse to buy a Nissan since they almost went bankrupt in the late 1990's. Nor do I hear people planning to penalize Japanese car makers for the (widely known) junk they imported in the 1960's. In 1999, the Wall Street Journal reported Nissan lost millions of dollars in five of the last six years. Nissan's debt stood between $22 billion and $30 billion, which dwarfed that of any other auto maker. The Wall Street Journal, which is no huge supporter of GM, claimed Nissan would be bankrupt if it happened to be American company.

The claim that GM made inferior cars in the 1970's is suspect to me anyway, not because of my patriotic motivation, but because of my personal experience. The 1976 Riviera I owned was outstanding as far as quality and longevity was concerned, and 1976 is right in the middle of the supposed quality-challenged decade for American cars. An Auto Week magazine article even call it a "boat with no tail" in a piece they did about the history of the Riviera.

Shortly after the car passed 200,000 miles, I drove it from Florida to Illinois and back to demonstrate to some skeptical friends that the car would make it up, down and through the Smokey Mountains of Tennessee just fine, as I was getting my own share of comments about how terrible American cars supposedly were. The car had over 250,000 miles before I had it hauled off to the junkyard, but not before a co-worker bought the engine for his air-boat. The engine was so quiet no one knew (by listening) that I warmed it up for 5-10 minutes before I drove home from work as my co-workers walked past it in the parking lot to get in their own cars to drive home. People would walk by my ‚EUR?76 Riviera, stop for a second, and ask me "Is that car running?" The body had rusted out by the late 1990s, but the car never had the advantage of a garage to protect it from the Florida sun and Atlantic Ocean's salty air.

General Motors spent $5.2 billion on health care for their workers and retirees in 2004. The 2005 figure will be higher. The figure for Toyota, for instance, is certainly less since they didn't build their first American factory until 1987. The Georgetown, KY factory, which assembles the Toyota Camry, was built with Japanese steel by a Japanese steel company. Toyota was given 1,500 of free land. To attract this Japanese company to America, we even established a "special trade zone" so they could import parts duty-free from Japan. Financing was handled by Mitsui Bank of Japan. Total federal, state and local tax incentives (read giveaways) reached $100 million - courtesy of your tax dollars and mine..

These are some of the hidden costs few think about when selecting their next car. Before the first Toyota in American was ever assembled, the American steel industry, parts industry and finance industry took it on the chin. American tax obligations were also raised to boot. Today's Camry has a 55% domestic parts content, which is down from 75% just a few years earlier. American alternatives like the Chevy Impala has a 98% domestic parts content and the aging Ford Taurus, which used to be the number one selling car in America before the Camry took the top spot, has a 95% domestic parts content.

In the end, it doesn't matter how you slice it. General Motors pays more taxes, employs more workers, has more domestic plants, supports more families, retirees and their dependents, and has a higher overall domestic parts content than the foreign competition - hands down. American quality is on the rise. Efficiency has increased. GM kept America rolling by donating millions of dollars in cash and vehicles in the aftermath of September 11, 2001. Where was the foreign competition in America's time of need? They were busy reaping in record profits and sending them home to reward foreign owners at the expense of an American company that built the foundation of prosperity that America as a whole enjoys.

Profits are the lifeblood of any successful company or economy. General Motors makes only a few hundred dollars of profit per vehicle compared to over a thousand dollars for their foreign rivals because GM supports such a wide and diverse number of Americans. They've shown their loyalty to America by extending 0% financing for several years, and through their history they've done more good for America than any foreign car company ever dreamed of doing. It's time for America to show their loyalty to an American company whose own increased prosperity will result in greater American prosperity as well.

So if you want General Motors to get more aggressive and on the offensive in terms of marketing, bolder car designs, etc., stop spewing your venom at them, which makes them constantly play defense instead. It's unfair, unwarranted, and unproductive. GM wants to keep America rolling - as we all should - so let's let it and make it happen.

jspchief
03-21-2006, 07:09 AM
i think in the long run people are going to wish that GM, Ford and Chrysler were still around in 10 years.... then we will see the true effect of Toyo/HondaI agree. Competition always makes for a better market, and the loss of the major players very well could have a negative effect.

However, that doesn't mean that I should buy an inferior product to boost false competition.

htismaqe
03-21-2006, 07:45 AM
The Facts... just read it.....

Bullshit propaganda. Just like Wal-Mart's "buy American" scam as they push more and more American manufacturer's overseas with an iron fist.

I especially love this part:

So if you want General Motors to get more aggressive and on the offensive in terms of marketing, bolder car designs, etc., stop spewing your venom at them, which makes them constantly play defense instead. It's unfair, unwarranted, and unproductive. GM wants to keep America rolling - as we all should - so let's let it and make it happen.

Let me get this straight - General Motors is failing as a business because the American consumer forces them to react in a defensive manner? ROFL

Dude, someday you'll grow up and realize just how full of shit you are.

OnTheWarpath58
03-21-2006, 08:04 AM
Let me get this straight - General Motors is failing as a business because the American consumer forces them to react in a defensive manner?

What a great way for GM to get the american consumer to see their point of view.....

Blame them for your lack of business savvy.


The Chevy Impala beat the Toyota Camry in initial quality and Consumer Reports detailed how Buick now beats BMW in reliability

Nice spin. NOW the Buick beats BMW in reliability? Glad they finally joined the party.

Though trailing their Japanese rivals, U.S. brands generally outperformed European offerings in reliability, according to the magazine.

From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/01/AR2006030102318.html **REPOST**

Inspector
03-21-2006, 08:41 AM
[QUOTE=recxjake a union.... but at GM they have taken advantage of the company... like the "jobs bank".... did you know that if GM shuts down a plant they have to pay the employee 95% of their pay untill the new rounds of union negotiations... sept 2007[/QUOTE]

GM agreed to that contract, right?

Why did they agree to that if it's so bad? They didn't have to.

You would like for us to help your daddy's retirement by buying crappy products, so what are you and your family doing to help my retirement?

I'm not so sure any of us can avoid the rest of the world and it's impact anymore. It really is becoming much more of a global market. If your dad's company can't compete, then they go the way of any other companies that are beat by their competition.

Dave Lane
03-21-2006, 09:53 AM
Bullshit propaganda. Just like Wal-Mart's "buy American" scam as they push more and more American manufacturer's overseas with an iron fist.

I especially love this part:

So if you want General Motors to get more aggressive and on the offensive in terms of marketing, bolder car designs, etc., stop spewing your venom at them, which makes them constantly play defense instead. It's unfair, unwarranted, and unproductive. GM wants to keep America rolling - as we all should - so let's let it and make it happen.



Actually I thought that was W for a minute when I started to read that. Isn't that his current defense too? Reject has two failing heroes ROFL...

Dave

Dave Lane
03-21-2006, 09:54 AM
GM agreed to that contract, right?

Why did they agree to that if it's so bad? They didn't have to.

You would like for us to help your daddy's retirement by buying crappy products, so what are you and your family doing to help my retirement?

I'm not so sure any of us can avoid the rest of the world and it's impact anymore. It really is becoming much more of a global market. If your dad's company can't compete, then they go the way of any other companies that are beat by their competition.

Exactly

Dave

Simplex3
03-21-2006, 10:04 AM
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA...
First, he's overspending for a guy that's unemployed. Second, define "good paying". Third, he's a dumbass for thinking he could compete with people happy to make $5 a week. Last, he's even dumber for not taking advantage of all the free education in this country and putting himself in position to manage these sub-minimum wage overseas workers.

KC Kings
03-21-2006, 10:04 AM
Based on what criteria?
Not to mention the highest rated mini-van for 5 years in a row.
But ratings are just oppinions, and most of the time they are compeletly biased and unrealistic. I don't know enough about cars to form my own professional oppinion, so I have to use the reviews.

That being said, I will be damned if I ever by a new car again, so I can watch it drop 25% of it's value as soon as I drive off the lot. Since the re-sale value of Toyota's is so high, it made more sense to me to but something other than a Toyota.

I just bought a 2005 Mercury Monterey Premiere, fully loaded, 1 year old with 30k miles with a 7 year 70k mile extended warantee. Sticker price was $36k, I got it for $17,900 before getting $2400 for my 10 year old 180k 2-door Explorer. Any Toyota with close to the same features, (I couldn't find any Toy's with third row curtain and canopy air bags), were about $10k, or 35% more than a Mercury. I figure that I can pay that much less for a vehical that has a little lower rating.

KC Kings
03-21-2006, 10:23 AM
Jap cars have been voted number one across the board by Consumer Reports-and last much longer, with less depreciation.

GM is still better than Ford though if that helps.
I have subscribed to Consumer Reports for over 8 years, and everytime they rated a product that I was familiar with, such as TV's, surround sound, tools, I completely disagreed with their oppinions and multiple other professional reviews also disagreed. Consumer Reports is great info if you want to buy a product that you don't know anything about, but it is definately no Bible.

The Ford Explorers always get low ratings despite of crash test ratings, good reliability, and higer resale values which all conflict with a low rating.

sedated
03-21-2006, 10:41 AM
F*ck America.

We can't do anything right.


"Communism destroys Socalism, Capitalism destroys Communism, and Capitalism destroys Itself."

recxjake
03-21-2006, 11:18 AM
I have subscribed to Consumer Reports for over 8 years, and everytime they rated a product that I was familiar with, such as TV's, surround sound, tools, I completely disagreed with their oppinions and multiple other professional reviews also disagreed. Consumer Reports is great info if you want to buy a product that you don't know anything about, but it is definately no Bible.

The Ford Explorers always get low ratings despite of crash test ratings, good reliability, and higer resale values which all conflict with a low rating.


what i dont get about consumer reports is they already have the ratings and best buy picks out for the new model year.... but how do they know the reliability of that model year if they just come out?!

GM and Consumer Reports have hhttp://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28581ad a verbal war going on for years...

in my opinion, i wouldnt start a fight with the people that rate your cars

kepp
03-21-2006, 11:22 AM
Though trailing their Japanese rivals, U.S. brands generally outperformed European offerings in reliability, according to the magazine.There's a tagline in there somewhere: "General Motors. Because we're not worse than everybody."

Gonzo
03-21-2006, 11:29 AM
F*ck America.

We can't do anything right.


"Communism destroys Socalism, Capitalism destroys Communism, and Capitalism destroys Itself."


Real nice......Now the FCC is watching. Quick! Say Jihad Jihad and watch them ring your doorbell.

Read the sig

sedated
03-21-2006, 11:36 AM
Real nice......Now the FCC is watching. Quick! Say Jihad Jihad and watch them ring your doorbell.

Read the sig

dirka dirka.

mohamad jihad.

dirka dirka.

Ultra Peanut
03-21-2006, 11:56 AM
http://hassansrevengeonupn.ytmnd.com/

Ultra Peanut
03-21-2006, 12:00 PM
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA...Ain't no party like a sweatshop party beeeeyotch.

Gonzo
03-21-2006, 12:12 PM
Ain't no party like a sweatshop party beeeeyotch.

ROFL

Ebolapox
03-21-2006, 02:12 PM
they have betters cars.... not trucks or suv's.....

it's arguable that the toyota 4runner is the best suv on the market...

a buddy of mine has a rav4 with 194k miles on it... and it runs better than my 1990 pontiac lemans with 63k miles on it... and probably will be running when my (paid off) crappy car stops running...

just face it, recx... toyota is a better brand overall... better quality, better resale, better value, just better

-EB-...live with it, fanboy

Logical
03-21-2006, 03:30 PM
When you buy an American-made Chevy, you not only support more American workers, but also American investors, owners and stockholders.

I will fix that I will invest in Toyota stock it is a better investement anyway.

Hey recxjake what is all this whining about jobs, aren't you the one spewing how good the US economy is over on DC and how low the unemployment rate is here.

recxjake
03-21-2006, 05:07 PM
I will fix that I will invest in Toyota stock it is a better investement anyway.

Hey recxjake what is all this whining about jobs, aren't you the one spewing how good the US economy is over on DC and how low the unemployment rate is here.


what goes up must go down.... Toyota looks great now... wait a few years and they will have the UAW to mess with.... the new tundra is the ugliest thing i have ever seen and the new camry isn't very good looking either... Toyota is gonna start hitting some bumps in the road soon

Rain Man
03-21-2006, 05:11 PM
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA...


Wait a minute. Why would a mormon be drinking coffee and wine?

Dave Lane
03-21-2006, 07:24 PM
Wait a minute. Why would a mormon be drinking coffee and wine?

Maybe he wasn't a very devote Mormon...

Dave

Simplex3
03-21-2006, 07:57 PM
Maybe he wasn't a very devote Mormon...

Dave
My uncle tells me you can't go camping or fishing with just one Mormon because they'll drink all your booze. You have to have a second one so they keep eachother honest.

He's only partially kidding.

Ebolapox
03-24-2006, 12:45 PM
hmmm... GM/UAW offered severance packages to 100,000 of their workers... in bad financial shape... what do you think of that, recx?? was your dad canned?

-EB-...that is all

recxjake
03-24-2006, 01:40 PM
hmmm... GM/UAW offered severance packages to 100,000 of their workers... in bad financial shape... what do you think of that, recx?? was your dad canned?

-EB-...that is all

my dad isn't union.... he wears a nice little suit and tie to work everyday....

however this has been a good week for GM... getting that deal done w/ delphi was huge....

in sept 2007 the current union contracts expire.... the jobs bank, outragous wages and benefits will all be cut

StcChief
03-24-2006, 03:33 PM
my dad isn't union.... he wears a nice little suit and tie to work everyday....

however this has been a good week for GM... getting that deal done w/ delphi was huge....

in sept 2007 the current union contracts expire.... the jobs bank, outragous wages and benefits will all be cut

Should have happend years ago...what shape would GM be in now if they had the ability to compete and build better and produce a good product.

Dave Lane
03-24-2006, 03:57 PM
My uncle tells me you can't go camping or fishing with just one Mormon because they'll drink all your booze. You have to have a second one so they keep eachother honest.

He's only partially kidding.


ROFL

Dave

Bearcat
03-24-2006, 04:09 PM
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA...

The person who made this up either knows nothing about business or wants to completely ignore reality for a moment to make a point in a totally ass-backwards kind of way. I wasn't sure where to begin in laughing through this logic...

Logical
03-24-2006, 04:38 PM
what goes up must go down.... Toyota looks great now... wait a few years and they will have the UAW to mess with.... the new tundra is the ugliest thing i have ever seen and the new camry isn't very good looking either... Toyota is gonna start hitting some bumps in the road soon
People buy European for looks.

People buy Japanese for Quality and resale value

People buy American because they think they are being patriotic and don't care about looks or quality or resale value.

Valiant
03-24-2006, 04:45 PM
Consumer Report is absolute crap and will skew a review to whoever pays the most..

Brock
03-24-2006, 04:56 PM
Consumer Report is absolute crap and will skew a review to whoever pays the most..

That is a lie.

recxjake
03-24-2006, 07:45 PM
Consumer Report is absolute crap and will skew a review to whoever pays the most..

what people don't understand about consumer reports is they don't look at the big picture.... for instance they rated lcd tv's a while ago, and i took into best buy and few other stores to see what they thought.... everyplace we went to said that tv that was rated best was not the one to get.... they said it didn't have near the things some of the other tv's had....

so im not saying they are a big scam.... but they were way off on that...

Brock
03-24-2006, 07:59 PM
what people don't understand about consumer reports is they don't look at the big picture.... for instance they rated lcd tv's a while ago, and i took into best buy and few other stores to see what they thought.... everyplace we went to said that tv that was rated best was not the one to get.... they said it didn't have near the things some of the other tv's had....

so im not saying they are a big scam.... but they were way off on that...

Yeah, because the morons at best buy know more about the reliability of a product than people who actually tested the products. :rolleyes:

splatbass
03-24-2006, 08:22 PM
what people don't understand about consumer reports is they don't look at the big picture.... for instance they rated lcd tv's a while ago, and i took into best buy and few other stores to see what they thought.... everyplace we went to said that tv that was rated best was not the one to get.... they said it didn't have near the things some of the other tv's had....

so im not saying they are a big scam.... but they were way off on that...


Um, salesmen want to sell you the one they make the biggest commission on, not the best one. Take everything a salesman says with a grain of salt.

Pitt Gorilla
03-24-2006, 09:16 PM
what people don't understand about consumer reports is they don't look at the big picture.... for instance they rated lcd tv's a while ago, and i took into best buy and few other stores to see what they thought.... everyplace we went to said that tv that was rated best was not the one to get.... they said it didn't have near the things some of the other tv's had....

so im not saying they are a big scam.... but they were way off on that...I'm sure the salesman had NO other motive than to sell you the "best" tv.
:shake:

|Zach|
03-24-2006, 09:22 PM
The last 3 posts sum it up pretty well.

recxjake
03-24-2006, 09:42 PM
The last 3 posts sum it up pretty well.


wrong..... the tv that consumer reports said was the best simply wasn't..... it lacked a huge feature... the ability to resize a digital picture... somthin that is critical if you don't have hdtv... secondly it didn't have anywhere near the same screen quality.....

im just saying that the things consumer reports tested on are not the mort important.....

and it wasnt just best buy, it was several stores that said consumer reports had it wrong....

|Zach|
03-24-2006, 09:45 PM
wrong..... the tv that consumer reports said was the best simply wasn't..... it lacked a huge feature... the ability to resize a digital picture... somthin that is critical if you don't have hdtv... secondly it didn't have anywhere near the same screen quality.....

im just saying that the things consumer reports tested on are not the mort important.....

and it wasnt just best buy, it was several stores that said consumer reports had it wrong....
Again you show a very very basic misunderstanding of how things work. But thats always been your thing so keep rolling with it.

recxjake
03-24-2006, 09:47 PM
Again you show a very very basic misunderstanding of how things work. But thats always been your thing so keep rolling with it.

your the kind of person who has to have their hands held through life.... i'm smart enough to look at things objectivley and look at the big picture... i don't need a magazine to tell me what to buy and what not to buy... i can find out myself

morphius
03-24-2006, 09:48 PM
your the kind of person who has to have their hands held through life.... i'm smart enough to look at things objectivley and look at the big picture... i don't need a magazine to tell me what to buy and what not to buy... i can find out myself
Yeah, 'cause you can always ask Daddy!

LOL!

Morphius
sorry couldn't resist.

|Zach|
03-24-2006, 09:48 PM
your the kind of person who has to have their hands held through life.... i'm smart enough to look at things objectivley and look at the big picture... i don't need a magazine to tell me what to buy and what not to buy... i can find out myself
These are strong words coming from a guy who is being led around by sales people.

recxjake
03-24-2006, 09:54 PM
These are strong words coming from a guy who is being led around by sales people.

yup... and thats why i didn't buy it...

Consumer Reports is very biased...

you need to read this article...

Is Consumer Reports Biased?
Sometimes itís not the cards youíre dealt ó itís how theyíre stacked.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Is_Consumer_Reports_Biased.S175.A4733.html

|Zach|
03-24-2006, 09:56 PM
yup... and thats why i didn't buy it...

Consumer Reports is very biased...

you need to read this article...

Is Consumer Reports Biased?
Sometimes itís not the cards youíre dealt ó itís how theyíre stacked.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Is_Consumer_Reports_Biased.S175.A4733.html
Lets just take it slow here.

Consumer Reports is biased...

So you started talking to sales people.

Sales.......people......

Amazing.

recxjake
03-24-2006, 09:57 PM
Lets just take it slow here.

Consumer Reports is biased...

So you started talking to sales people.

Sales.......people......

Amazing.

you obviously didnt read it

DomerNKC
03-24-2006, 10:11 PM
.... i'm smart enough to look at things objectivley and look at the big pictureROFLROFLROFLROFL:LOL:i cant believe you actually said that without laughing at yourself.

morphius
03-24-2006, 10:17 PM
you obviously didnt read it
That's why most people do more then research from one source when making a big purchase and MOST people dont trust the sales person to make the decision for you.

DomerNKC
03-24-2006, 10:23 PM
yup... and thats why i didn't buy it...

Consumer Reports is very biased...

you need to read this article...

Is Consumer Reports Biased?
Sometimes itís not the cards youíre dealt ó itís how theyíre stacked.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Is_Consumer_Reports_Biased.S175.A4733.htmlthat article is 4 years old. consumer reports is not biased. consumers reports is a not for profit venture of consumers union. it will not take advertisements for fear of being obligated to give good reports to large ad buyers. consumer reports buys all of the cars they test (secretly in the guise of a consumer so they can also report on the buying expierience.) they also want the car to represent the car a consumer could buy. they dont want the manufacturer to specially build a car to get a good report. sometimes they miss. they dont miss because they are biased though. they have not missed year after year in regards to domestic autos. you do not call a fifteen or twenty year run an abhorration, you call it the norm.

morphius
03-24-2006, 10:44 PM
that"]http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Is_Consumer_Reports_Biased.S175.A4733.htmlthat[/url] article is 4 years old. consumer reports is not biased. consumers reports is a not for profit venture of consumers union. it will not take advertisements for fear of being obligated to give good reports to large ad buyers. consumer reports buys all of the cars they test (secretly in the guise of a consumer so they can also report on the buying expierience.) they also want the car to represent the car a consumer could buy. they dont want the manufacturer to specially build a car to get a good report. sometimes they miss. they dont miss because they are biased though. they have not missed year after year in regards to domestic autos. you do not call a fifteen or twenty year run an abhorration, you call it the norm.[/QUOTE]
But they don't agree with JD Power and associates...

...who seem to magically name the car/truck of the year before a person can buy it or see if there are any issues with it.

Simplex3
03-24-2006, 11:49 PM
what people don't understand about consumer reports is they don't look at the big picture.... for instance they rated lcd tv's a while ago, and i took into best buy and few other stores to see what they thought.... everyplace we went to said that tv that was rated best was not the one to get.... they said it didn't have near the things some of the other tv's had....

so im not saying they are a big scam.... but they were way off on that...
Yes, because the minimum wage teenager working at Best Buy:

1. Was highly intelligent
2. Had lots of product training
3. Wasn't trying to sell you the TV that would win him 3 free CDs

You're a joke.

Logical
03-25-2006, 12:22 AM
I must say I find recxjake consistenly amusing, I am always laughing at pretty much everything he posts.

Valiant
03-25-2006, 01:57 AM
consumer reports is not biased. consumers reports is a not for profit venture of consumers union. it will not take advertisements for fear of being obligated to give good reports to large ad buyers. consumer reports buys all of the cars they test (secretly in the guise of a consumer so they can also report on the buying expierience.) they also want the car to represent the car a consumer could buy. they dont want the manufacturer to specially build a car to get a good report. sometimes they miss. they dont miss because they are biased though. they have not missed year after year in regards to domestic autos. you do not call a fifteen or twenty year run an abhorration, you call it the norm.


Im sorry but having read consumer reports for years(on electronics not cars), that company is a biased piece of shit.. They can say they are not, that magazine/website is as crooked as politicians..

Agian I do not look at the car section because I do not buy a new car every year like I do new electronics like cameras/tvs/stereos..


Cnet.com seems to be the most decent I have found so far myself in giving actual feedback and reviews...

Valiant
03-25-2006, 02:06 AM
That is a lie.


I'm sorry you believe their lies.. When Sony and Panasonic both say they paid to have their tv's tested and reviewed by Consumer Reports I tend to believe them.. Do you really think they make enough money off thier website and 6months behind-the-times tech magazine to afford a billion dollar spending limit each year??? Do you believe what politicians tell you???

I wont say that the car companies pay them to test, but I know for a fact that electronic companies pay them to test their product..

recxjake
03-25-2006, 09:20 AM
More proof of Media Bias

The headline of this article is "Ford's F-Series trucks named among most expensive to insure"

but when you read it, the F-series is the 6th most expensive. And wouldn't you know it, the Honda Civic is the MOST expensive...

Ford and GM can't win...


bizjournals.com
Ford's F-Series trucks named among most expensive to insure
Thursday March 23, 11:07 am ET

Ford's F-Series pickup trucks, including the Louisville-made Super-Duty trucks, are among the 10 most expensive vehicles to insure, an insurance brokerage report says.
In its second annual report on the most- and least-expensive vehicles to insure, Quotesmith.com Inc. said the F-Series came in sixth on the list of most expensive to insure.

Dearborn, Mich.-based Ford Motor Co. (NYSE : F - News) manufactures F-250 and F-350 trucks at Louisville's Kentucky Truck Plant on Chamberlain Lane.

Tops on the most-expensive to insure list was the Honda Civic.

The least expensive vehicle to insure is the Chrysler Town & Country minivan, according to Quotesmith.

The online insurance brokerage said it arrived at its lists using data from three cities and research from the insurance and automotive industries.

The comparison of insurance rates was based on a 45 year-old single male with no driving violations or convictions and driving to work less than 3 miles one way. Quotesmith used liability limits of $100,000 per person, $300,000 per accident and $50,000 property damage. Comprehensive and collision premiums were determined using a $250 deductible.

OnTheWarpath58
03-25-2006, 10:57 AM
More proof of Media Bias

The headline of this article is "Ford's F-Series trucks named among most expensive to insure"

but when you read it, the F-series is the 6th most expensive. And wouldn't you know it, the Honda Civic is the MOST expensive...

Ford and GM can't win...

bizjournals.com
Ford's F-Series trucks named among most expensive to insure
Thursday March 23, 11:07 am ET

Ford's F-Series pickup trucks, including the Louisville-made Super-Duty trucks, are among the 10 most expensive vehicles to insure, an insurance brokerage report says.
In its second annual report on the most- and least-expensive vehicles to insure, Quotesmith.com Inc. said the F-Series came in sixth on the list of most expensive to insure.

Dearborn, Mich.-based Ford Motor Co. (NYSE : F - News) manufactures F-250 and F-350 trucks at Louisville's Kentucky Truck Plant on Chamberlain Lane.

Tops on the most-expensive to insure list was the Honda Civic.

The least expensive vehicle to insure is the Chrysler Town & Country minivan, according to Quotesmith.

The online insurance brokerage said it arrived at its lists using data from three cities and research from the insurance and automotive industries.

The comparison of insurance rates was based on a 45 year-old single male with no driving violations or convictions and driving to work less than 3 miles one way. Quotesmith used liability limits of $100,000 per person, $300,000 per accident and $50,000 property damage. Comprehensive and collision premiums were determined using a $250 deductible.

Media bias? I guess it's a good thing you didn't post this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/03/23/expensive_insure/

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - The Ford F-series pick-up, which consistently ranks as America's most popular vehicle, is also the most expensive to insure among the top 20, according to a report released today by the insurance website Insure.com.

The Chrysler Town & Country minivan is the least expensive to insure of the 20 most popular vehicles, while its corporate twin, the Dodge Caravan, is the third least expensive. The Chevrolet Cobalt small car is the second least expensive to insure, according to the report.

Any individual's actual car insurance premiums can vary greatly depending on factors such as their age, driving record and where they live. But the vehicle itself is a major factor that insurance companies consider to determine premiums.

Insurance is the third largest cost of owning a new car, after depreciation and fuel, according to Insure.com. Insurance premium costs, now averaging almost $900 per year, have risen 27 percent since 2000, according to the report.

Insure.com looked only at the 20 top-selling vehicles in the United States.

In order to rank the vehicles by their relative costs to insure, Insure.com compared rates provided by the website Esurance.com for a 45-year-old single male with no traffic violations who drives less than three miles to work. The amounts of coverage were also the same for each vehicle. Premiums for three different cities, one on the East Coast, one on the West Coast and one in the Midwest, were averaged for each vehicle.

Factors such as popularity with car thieves, how much the vehicle costs to repair after a crash and the amount of damage it does to another vehicle in a crash can influence a vehicles cost to insure, said Loretta Worters, vice president of the Insurance Information Institute.

Options, such as a bigger engine or a high-performance trim level, can make one vehicle cost more than another even if they are the same make and model, said Worters. For example, a Honda Civic Si, the high-performance version of that car, might cost more to insure than the Honda Civic Hybrid.

Some vehicles are also more prone to having parts stolen, such as headlights or spoilers, Worters said.

Before deciding on a car to purchase, Worters recommends that shoppers contact their insurance agent with a list of the vehicles being considered.

Top 20 most popular cars ranked by relative cost to insure

Least expensive vehicle to insure is listed first.

1. Chrysler Town & Country

2. Chevrolet Cobalt

3. Dodge Caravan

4. Chevrolet Impala

5. Ford Taurus

6. Ford Econoline van

7. Jeep Grand Cherokee

8. Chevrolet Malibu

9. GMC Sierra pick-up

10. Toyota Corolla

11. Ford Focus

12. Nissan Altima

13. Chevrolet Trailblazer

14.Honda Accord

15. Toyota Camry

16. Chevrolet Silverado pick-up

17. Honda Civic

18. Ford Explorer

19. Dodge Ram pickup

20. Ford F-series pick-up


Also, helps to tell everyone WHY those cars/trucks are more expensive to insure:

They all show up on the "most stolen car" lists.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/08/Autos/most_stolen_nicb/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The 1995 Honda Civic was the most-stolen car during 2004, according to statistics from the National Insurance Crime Bureau.

Of the top 10 most-stolen vehicles last year, six were Japanese brands. All four domestic vehicles on the list are light trucks, including one minivan. The NICB statistics are based on data from the FBI Uniform Crime Report.

The large number of Honda Civics on the road probably accounts for its appearance at the top of a list like this, said Chris Naughton, a spokesman for Honda.

Popularity and longevity have a lot to do with a vehicle's popularity as a theft target, agreed Frank Scafidi, a spokesman for the NICB. Not only are there more vehicles available to steal, but as vehicles get older they require parts more frequently, creating demand for parts taken from stolen cars.

Overall, motor vehicle theft was down 1.9 percent compared to 2003, according to NICB. A total of 1,237,114 personal motor vehicles were reported stolen in 2004, which was 23,357 fewer than in the previous year. The western United States, however, posted a 3.2 percent increase in vehicle thefts, according to the NICB.

Types of vehicles stolen can vary by the region and state, said Scafidi. For example, the 1999 Bombardier Ski-Doo snowmobile was one of the ten most-stolen vehicles in Maine, he said. In most Midwestern states, cars from Detroit-based manufacturers dominate the most-stolen cars lists with few, if any, foreign cars making the top ten.

Most stolen cars 2004

Click for vehicle details and photos

1. 1995 Honda Civic

2. 1989 Toyota Camry*

3. 1991 Honda Accord

4. 1994 Dodge Caravan

5. 1994 Chevrolet Full Size C/K 1500 pick-up

6. 1997 Ford F150 pickup

7. 2003 Dodge Ram pick-up

8. 1990 Acura Integra

9. 1988 Toyota pick-up*

10. 1991 Nissan Sentra

*Data not available for model years prior to 1990

morphius
03-25-2006, 11:13 AM
Media bias? I guess it's a good thing you didn't post this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/03/23/expensive_insure/

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - The Ford F-series pick-up, which consistently ranks as America's most popular vehicle, is also the most expensive to insure among the top 20, according to a report released today by the insurance website Insure.com.

The Chrysler Town & Country minivan is the least expensive to insure of the 20 most popular vehicles, while its corporate twin, the Dodge Caravan, is the third least expensive. The Chevrolet Cobalt small car is the second least expensive to insure, according to the report.

Any individual's actual car insurance premiums can vary greatly depending on factors such as their age, driving record and where they live. But the vehicle itself is a major factor that insurance companies consider to determine premiums.

Insurance is the third largest cost of owning a new car, after depreciation and fuel, according to Insure.com. Insurance premium costs, now averaging almost $900 per year, have risen 27 percent since 2000, according to the report.

Insure.com looked only at the 20 top-selling vehicles in the United States.

In order to rank the vehicles by their relative costs to insure, Insure.com compared rates provided by the website Esurance.com for a 45-year-old single male with no traffic violations who drives less than three miles to work. The amounts of coverage were also the same for each vehicle. Premiums for three different cities, one on the East Coast, one on the West Coast and one in the Midwest, were averaged for each vehicle.

Factors such as popularity with car thieves, how much the vehicle costs to repair after a crash and the amount of damage it does to another vehicle in a crash can influence a vehicles cost to insure, said Loretta Worters, vice president of the Insurance Information Institute.

Options, such as a bigger engine or a high-performance trim level, can make one vehicle cost more than another even if they are the same make and model, said Worters. For example, a Honda Civic Si, the high-performance version of that car, might cost more to insure than the Honda Civic Hybrid.

Some vehicles are also more prone to having parts stolen, such as headlights or spoilers, Worters said.

Before deciding on a car to purchase, Worters recommends that shoppers contact their insurance agent with a list of the vehicles being considered.

Top 20 most popular cars ranked by relative cost to insure

Least expensive vehicle to insure is listed first.

1. Chrysler Town & Country

2. Chevrolet Cobalt

3. Dodge Caravan

4. Chevrolet Impala

5. Ford Taurus

6. Ford Econoline van

7. Jeep Grand Cherokee

8. Chevrolet Malibu

9. GMC Sierra pick-up

10. Toyota Corolla

11. Ford Focus

12. Nissan Altima

13. Chevrolet Trailblazer

14.Honda Accord

15. Toyota Camry

16. Chevrolet Silverado pick-up

17. Honda Civic

18. Ford Explorer

19. Dodge Ram pickup

20. Ford F-series pick-up


Also, helps to tell everyone WHY those cars/trucks are more expensive to insure:

They all show up on the "most stolen car" lists.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/08/Autos/most_stolen_nicb/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The 1995 Honda Civic was the most-stolen car during 2004, according to statistics from the National Insurance Crime Bureau.

Of the top 10 most-stolen vehicles last year, six were Japanese brands. All four domestic vehicles on the list are light trucks, including one minivan. The NICB statistics are based on data from the FBI Uniform Crime Report.

The large number of Honda Civics on the road probably accounts for its appearance at the top of a list like this, said Chris Naughton, a spokesman for Honda.

Popularity and longevity have a lot to do with a vehicle's popularity as a theft target, agreed Frank Scafidi, a spokesman for the NICB. Not only are there more vehicles available to steal, but as vehicles get older they require parts more frequently, creating demand for parts taken from stolen cars.

Overall, motor vehicle theft was down 1.9 percent compared to 2003, according to NICB. A total of 1,237,114 personal motor vehicles were reported stolen in 2004, which was 23,357 fewer than in the previous year. The western United States, however, posted a 3.2 percent increase in vehicle thefts, according to the NICB.

Types of vehicles stolen can vary by the region and state, said Scafidi. For example, the 1999 Bombardier Ski-Doo snowmobile was one of the ten most-stolen vehicles in Maine, he said. In most Midwestern states, cars from Detroit-based manufacturers dominate the most-stolen cars lists with few, if any, foreign cars making the top ten.

Most stolen cars 2004

Click for vehicle details and photos

1. 1995 Honda Civic

2. 1989 Toyota Camry*

3. 1991 Honda Accord

4. 1994 Dodge Caravan

5. 1994 Chevrolet Full Size C/K 1500 pick-up

6. 1997 Ford F150 pickup

7. 2003 Dodge Ram pick-up

8. 1990 Acura Integra

9. 1988 Toyota pick-up*

10. 1991 Nissan Sentra

*Data not available for model years prior to 1990
Yup, but he does all of his research...

Dave Lane
03-25-2006, 11:25 AM
I must say I find recxjake consistenly amusing, I am always laughing at pretty much everything he posts.


Damn there goes my theory that you are Reject! I figured this either was someone whos incredibly ignorant (which to this level I find very difficult to believe) or someone whos sticking their thumb in everyones eye and is actually quite intelligent with a bizarre sense of humor and having some fun. Hence I thought it could well be Logical at work...

Dave