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KHinz57
03-21-2006, 03:55 PM
What's all of the talk about Joey Harrington coming to Kansas City barring his release in Detroit? Aren't the Chiefs high on Casey Printers to take over as backup to Trent Green, or would they be willing to turn the reigns over to Harrington much like the Denver Broncos did when they took Jake Plummer from Arizona who had a miserable couple of years. Does Herm Edwards have the same philosophy that Mike Shanahan did with Plummer?

The Bad Guy
03-21-2006, 03:57 PM
Why not bring in Joey Harrington?

Casey Printers lost his starting job last year in the CFL. Anyone drinking his kool-aid thinking he might be something special, and worthy of being an NFL #2, is certainly reaching.

KHinz57
03-21-2006, 04:00 PM
No I agree Joey Harrington to Kansas City, it seemed to workout in Denver with that similar philosophy, and I don't know much about Casey Printers, I was just asking what the organizations' views are of the two. Anyone out there not in favor of Harrington taking over after Trent Green is done?

PastorMikH
03-21-2006, 04:26 PM
Why not bring in Joey Harrington?

Casey Printers lost his starting job last year in the CFL. Anyone drinking his kool-aid thinking he might be something special, and worthy of being an NFL #2, is certainly reaching.



I did not know that. Printers lost his starting job in the CFL and Carl thinks he can be a starter in the NFL? Yeah, I guess that sounds like Carl.

KCChiefsFan88
03-21-2006, 04:28 PM
Harrington's lack of physical capabilities makes Steve Bono look like a physical speciman at QB.

Harrington isn't an NFL-caliber QB. Just say no Carl.

Count Alex's Losses
03-21-2006, 04:28 PM
I did not know that. Printers lost his starting job in the CFL and Carl thinks he can be a starter in the NFL? Yeah, I guess that sounds like Carl.

Printers didn't deserve to lose his job. He was the CFL MVP. It was politics.

Count Alex's Losses
03-21-2006, 04:29 PM
Harrington's lack of physical capabilities makes Steve Bono look like a physical speciman at QB.

Harrington isn't an NFL-caliber QB. Just say no Carl.

You're nuts. Harrington's problem has never been his arm or his legs. It's all mental with him. And his lack of accuracy doesn't help.

Mecca
03-21-2006, 04:36 PM
Harrington's lack of physical capabilities makes Steve Bono look like a physical speciman at QB.

Harrington isn't an NFL-caliber QB. Just say no Carl.

You don't get drafted in the top 10 if you lack the physical tools.......so your arguement doesn't make any sense.

Fish
03-21-2006, 04:59 PM
Keep f*cking doubting Printers............

Sure-Oz
03-21-2006, 05:07 PM
I'd like both of them in camp, we need a good young QB, printers is a project that has zero nfl exp. Harrington atleast has the mental and physical tools to be successful, he may just need a new start somewhere else, ya never know, can't hurt to try. Back when he was drafted i would've had no problems taking him. Lions ****in blow from head to toe. I am curious what printers will be like, but I am not expecting him to make miracles like some are, i'd love to be proved wrong though.

Frankie
03-21-2006, 05:10 PM
Aren't the Chiefs high on Casey Printers to take over as backup to Trent Green, ...? No, the Chiefs Planeteers are.

Mr. Laz
03-21-2006, 05:14 PM
huard sucks ... harrington can replace him

The Bad Guy
03-21-2006, 05:15 PM
Harrington's lack of physical capabilities makes Steve Bono look like a physical speciman at QB.

Harrington isn't an NFL-caliber QB. Just say no Carl.

Is this a joke?

Harrington can move in the pocket, has a plus arm.

What isn't NFL-caliber about that?

nychief
03-21-2006, 05:16 PM
Harrington's lack of physical capabilities makes Steve Bono look like a physical speciman at QB.

Harrington isn't an NFL-caliber QB. Just say no Carl.


that is idiotic.

Sure-Oz
03-21-2006, 05:16 PM
Is this a joke?

Harrington can move in the pocket, has a plus arm.

What isn't NFL-caliber about that?

Exactly, I think he's been watching Damon Huard play.

58-4ever
03-21-2006, 05:18 PM
Keep f*cking doubting Printers............

Done

FringeNC
03-21-2006, 05:25 PM
If Mike Martz doesn't lobby Harrington to stay in Detroit, I seriously doubt he has much talent. Say what you want about Martz, but he knows QBs.

Sure-Oz
03-21-2006, 05:27 PM
Harrington would rather not be there, I doubt he'd want to stay with a team that doesn't support him.

58-4ever
03-21-2006, 05:28 PM
If Mike Martz doesn't lobby Harrington to stay in Detroit, I seriously doubt he has much talent. Say what you want about Martz, but he knows QBs.

Actually, when Martz was first hired he was pretty excited about Harrington after watching some tape.

Logical
03-21-2006, 05:31 PM
I did not know that. Printers lost his starting job in the CFL and Carl thinks he can be a starter in the NFL? Yeah, I guess that sounds like Carl.That is a little deceptive, he took over for the injured starting QB two years ago and had a fine season, then the starter got his job back.

Fat Elvis
03-21-2006, 05:45 PM
That is a little deceptive, he took over for the injured starting QB two years ago and had a fine season, then the starter got his job back.

Kinda like the whole Gannon/Grbac debacle?

Cormac
03-21-2006, 05:52 PM
I'd be happy if we sign Harrington. He doesn't come with any guarantee, but it would be nice to finally have a backup with some potential. After all, we're debating about who should replace Todd Collins. And it's not Scott Mitchell.

Joey is a bonus.

shakesthecat
03-21-2006, 05:55 PM
I guess I just don't see any downside to signing Harrington.
He's every bit as good as Collins ever was, and a helluva lot younger.

Then again, I won't be heartbroken if it doesn't happen.

Sure-Oz
03-21-2006, 06:41 PM
We would be replacing Todd Collins and Damon Huard, that douch doesn't deserve a roster spot on any NFL team.

KCChiefsFan88
03-21-2006, 07:11 PM
Is this a joke?

Harrington can move in the pocket, has a plus arm.

What isn't NFL-caliber about that?


Are you serious? Try watching tape of Harrington attempt to throw the ball downfield. It looks like Chad Pennington. Wobbling ducks with zero velocity or accuracy on them.

When you are dumped by a brilliant offensive mind/QB coach such as Mike Martz, it is pretty telling IMO.

Harrington was a failure in Detroit and he'll be a failure where ever he goes in the NFL. He is a bust pure and simple.

Count Alex's Losses
03-21-2006, 07:13 PM
Harrington was a failure in Detroit and he'll be a failure where ever he goes in the NFL. He is a bust pure and simple.

I agree with you, but I think he has plenty of physical talent.

Frankie
03-21-2006, 07:15 PM
Are you serious? Try watching tape of Harrington attempt to throw the ball downfield. It looks like Chad Pennington. Wobbling ducks with zero velocity or accuracy on them.

When you are dumped by a brilliant offensive mind/QB coach such as Mike Martz, it is pretty telling IMO.

Harrington was a failure in Detroit and he'll be a failure where ever he goes in the NFL. He is a bust pure and simple.
Bust or not, it shouldn't cost too much to find out for our own. I say sign him.

Sure-Oz
03-21-2006, 07:55 PM
Harrington>pile of shit>Damon Huard, nuff said, we are royally butt ****ed if Huard has to come in, i'd take my chances with Harrington over Huard or Printers who has no NFL snaps.

Count Alex's Losses
03-21-2006, 07:56 PM
Harrington>pile of shit>Damon Huard, nuff said, we are royally butt ****ed if Huard has to come in, i'd take my chances with Harrington over Huard or Printers who has no NFL snaps.

We'd be fine if Huard came in. What's butt****ed is basing your opinion of Huard off one preseason game.

Sure-Oz
03-21-2006, 08:00 PM
We'd be fine if Huard came in. What's butt****ed is basing your opinion of Huard off one preseason game.
basically, and he has like 300 career attempts at throwing it hasnt done much. Harrington atleast has starting experience and had one pretty good season 19 tds 12 ints, i'd rather take my chances with him than Damon Huard.

Ultra Peanut
03-21-2006, 08:14 PM
Are you serious? Try watching tape of Harrington attempt to throw the ball downfield. It looks like Chad Pennington. Wobbling ducks with zero velocity or accuracy on them.

When you are dumped by a brilliant offensive mind/QB coach such as Mike Martz, it is pretty telling IMO.

Harrington was a failure in Detroit and he'll be a failure where ever he goes in the NFL. He is a bust pure and simple.Loop naai jou ma.

Dave Lane
03-21-2006, 08:48 PM
Huard has 6 careers starts at age 47 thats pretty telling...

Dave

OK I made the age up...

Count Alex's Losses
03-21-2006, 08:49 PM
Huard has 6 careers starts at age 47 thats pretty telling...

Dave

OK I made the age up...

Some guys are made to be career backups. Frank Reich, for instance.

Halfcan
03-21-2006, 09:08 PM
Harrington's lack of physical capabilities makes Steve Bono look like a physical speciman at QB.

Harrington isn't an NFL-caliber QB. Just say no Carl.

Plus we have Huard, he can hold a clipboard, he can't pass the football, but should be able to hold the clipboard without getting hurt.

pak1983
03-21-2006, 09:14 PM
Having an offensive line and having a premier running back can make a average qb great. Both of these take a lot of pressure of the qb. I dont think there is many quarterbacks that wouldnt succeed with our offense. Think about it..........

The Bad Guy
03-21-2006, 09:36 PM
Are you serious? Try watching tape of Harrington attempt to throw the ball downfield. It looks like Chad Pennington. Wobbling ducks with zero velocity or accuracy on them.

When you are dumped by a brilliant offensive mind/QB coach such as Mike Martz, it is pretty telling IMO.

Harrington was a failure in Detroit and he'll be a failure where ever he goes in the NFL. He is a bust pure and simple.

I broke down several tapes of Harrington when I was interning.

That is one of the most ridiculous comparisons I have ever read on this board. Harrington has much more arm strength than Pennington. Much more. It's not even close.

He was dumped because he wanted out. Martz and Marinelli were singing his praises when they got there. Joey sabotaged the QB school Martz had. Instead of keeping an unhappy player around, they are cutting ties.

Name the last successful QB in Detroit.

He has talent. It's obvious you chose to ignore that and make ridiculous statements about his strengths and weaknesses.

Afterall, we have so many other young backup options. I guess you took a sip of the Casey Printers kool-aid too.

PastorMikH
03-21-2006, 09:45 PM
Plus we have Huard, he can hold a clipboard, he can't pass the football, but should be able to hold the clipboard without getting hurt.




Actually, word is that during the last pe-season game Green was pulled after the first series, headed to the lockerroom for a shower, then joined Priest in the press-box for some nachos. Meanwhile, Collins is in the game and Huard is holding the Clip Board. After a 2nd and 10 call that went for 6 yards, Al started yelling at Huard about the play he wanted next that was buried on the 5th page of papers on the clip board. As the frustration mounted, Huard dropped the clip board. Worse yet, he dropped in on Ryan Sim's foot. Sims tried to walk it off, but the injury was worse than he thought and the very next week the fractured bones in his foot gave way and snapped the rest of the way in two, putting Sims out for the majority of the season.

Now, do you REALLY want Huard holding that Clip Board?

melbar
03-21-2006, 10:12 PM
You're nuts. Harrington's problem has never been his arm or his legs. It's all mental with him. And his lack of accuracy doesn't help.
NO running game and spending half the game on your back doesnt help.The guy was exceptional in College and seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Sometimes a change in venue can do wonders.See Steve Young-

Dave Lane
03-21-2006, 10:20 PM
I broke down several tapes of Harrington when I was interning.

That is one of the most ridiculous comparisons I have ever read on this board. Harrington has much more arm strength than Pennington. Much more. It's not even close.

He was dumped because he wanted out. Martz and Marinelli were singing his praises when they got there. Joey sabotaged the QB school Martz had. Instead of keeping an unhappy player around, they are cutting ties.

Name the last successful QB in Detroit.

He has talent. It's obvious you chose to ignore that and make ridiculous statements about his strengths and weaknesses.

Afterall, we have so many other young backup options. I guess you took a sip of the Casey Printers kool-aid too.

I agree completely. Harrington is a product of the system or lack thereof in Detroit much as many people say Green is a product of the system here. Did anyone notice any difference in Trent when a certain LT went down for 4 games with a hammy? Whole different TG.

Dave

jspchief
03-21-2006, 10:42 PM
I guess I just don't see any downside to signing Harrington.
He's every bit as good as Collins ever was, and a helluva lot younger.

Then again, I won't be heartbroken if it doesn't happen.IMO, the downside is that he might be considered for the QBotF. I don't have a problem with Harrington as our #2, but I don't want the team trying to groom him for the #1 spot when Green is gone.

Harrington sucks. He's not NFL starter material. He's pathetically inaccurate, and he can't go through progressions. He looks at the first option, and if it isn't there he immediately throws a lousy pass to the RB in the flat. He'll never be a quality starter, you can quote me on that.

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 07:48 AM
IMO, the downside is that he might be considered for the QBotF.As opposed to whom? Casey Printers? Someone who was far less accomplished in college than him that we take in the 6th round?

jspchief
03-22-2006, 07:54 AM
As opposed to whom? Casey Printers? Someone who was far less accomplished in college than him that we take in the 6th round?Yes. Casey Printers or someone unproven from college.

If you read the second paragraph from my other post, you'd see that I don't consider Harrington NFL starter material. It's not the situation he's in, it's just that he's not very good.

So yes, I'd rather look for our QBotF in an unknown commodity, than expect to get him from someone I already know doesn't have what it takes.

I don't expect Printers to pan out, nor do I like his style of QB play. What I really hope happens is we draft Brodie Croyle, or wait until next year to draft someone.

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 07:56 AM
Anyone who looks around the league at the dearth of talent at the QB position, AND who understands how much of a crap shoot drafting a QB has become....and says we shouldn't give Harrington a look and a possible crack at our backup QB position (at the right PRICE).....they are either blind, stupid, or ignorant. Or all three.

Harrington was not given nearly the support and help he needed in Detroit; besides, we talking about the friggin' LIONS here! They drafted a couple of decent WRs....but did little else to help him. Maybe Harrington will never amount to anything.

However, to toss him aside without so much as a thought that he could, he might, evolve into a decent QB in the right situation is just plain silly. It's not like we are building him up, and tabbing him as the starter and our franchise QB. :banghead:

I think he, clearly, deserves a second chance. :shake:

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 08:01 AM
I think he, clearly, deserves a second chance. :shake:Nope. Spending the first four (mediocre) years of your pro career in a football black hole should be enough to damn anybody to "never will be" status.

So yes, I'd rather look for our QBotF in an unknown commodity, than expect to get him from someone I already know doesn't have what it takes.At least you're honest about having a mentality about this sort of thing that's fairly common, and preferring someone we have no real data on than someone who struggled to do well in an environment that was a cluster**** from the top down.

shakesthecat
03-22-2006, 08:01 AM
IMO, the downside is that he might be considered for the QBotF. I don't have a problem with Harrington as our #2, but I don't want the team trying to groom him for the #1 spot when Green is gone.

Harrington sucks. He's not NFL starter material. He's pathetically inaccurate, and he can't go through progressions. He looks at the first option, and if it isn't there he immediately throws a lousy pass to the RB in the flat. He'll never be a quality starter, you can quote me on that.


You may be right. But I seem to recall when Green arrived in KC, more than a few people here(not necessarily you) were saying the same things. Hell, they were saying that after his first year here.

Now I'm not saying JH will ever turn into a Pro Bowl QB, but it's not like they're trading a 1st rounder to get him either.

No risk, high posssible reward. Again, I don't see the downside.

jspchief
03-22-2006, 08:05 AM
You may be right. But I seem to recall when Green arrived in KC, more than a few people here(not necessarily you) were saying the same things. Hell, they were saying that after his first year here.

Now I'm not saying JH will ever turn into a Pro Bowl QB, but it's not like they're trading a 1st rounder to get him either.

No risk, high posssible reward. Again, I don't the downside.The difference between Green and Harrington is that Green never really got a chance, while Harrington has had 4 years to be someting other than really bad, and has never got it done.

I watched enough Detroit games to see that Harrington's problems weren't just his surrounding cast. He's just not very good.

jspchief
03-22-2006, 08:11 AM
Nope. Spending the first four (mediocre) years of your pro career in a football black hole should be enough to damn anybody to "never will be" status.

At least you're honest about having a mentality about this sort of thing that's fairly common, and preferring someone we have no real data on than someone who struggled to do well in an environment that was a cluster**** from the top down.How many great QBs currently in this league are some other team's retreads?

Sure, we have Green. But looking around the league, it appears to me that he is an exception to the norm. Most of the good starters are guys that were pretty much good from the start, or were buried on someone's bench until they got their shot.

And this isn't like a Jake Plummer, where he was the lone bright spot on a horrible Cardinals squad, showing flashes of talent in spite of his team. Harrington never looked talented in the league, and he's had twice the supporting cast as Plummer did in Arizona.

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 08:18 AM
The difference between Green and Harrington is that Green never really got a chance, while Harrington has had 4 years to be someting other than really bad, and has never got it done.

I watched enough Detroit games to see that Harrington's problems weren't just his surrounding cast. He's just not very good.

Living in SD, I've seen enough games with Harrington to have a different opinion. Does he have issues? Yes. Are all of those issues, because of lack of supporting cast? No. However....

He also lacked protection from the offensive line, he was given a playbook that was unrealistic given the players he was surrounded by (think Gun's years as HC--no WRs, no RBs), and he didn't receive much support from other players or coaches. Harrington was given young inexperienced and inconsistent WRs with talent, but little else. No experienced leadership around him. And very little in the way of real QB coaching....despite Mooch's reputation, Harrington didn't get much from them.

On the field, his most consistent attribute was he was inconsistent. Sometimes he looked great; sometimes he looked horrible. Once again, that points to coaching and preparation, in my book. His arm is stronger than his critics suggest; and when given protection, and the luxury of being able to play relaxed....he performed pretty darn well.

I'm not saying he will ever put up the numbers Green has, necessarily; however, to say that he can't at this point....is way, way premature IMHO.

shakesthecat
03-22-2006, 08:19 AM
The difference between Green and Harrington is that Green never really got a chance, while Harrington has had 4 years to be someting other than really bad, and has never got it done.

I watched enough Detroit games to see that Harrington's problems weren't just his surrounding cast. He's just not very good.


4 years and 3 different Head Coaches.
You don't think having to learn a new system every year may have hindered his development just a little?

I've seen a few Detroit games as well, and have seen enough good things in Harrington to know I'd rather have him backing up Green than either Printers or Huard.

Whether or not he's the QBoTF will work itself out in time.

charlyfreak
03-22-2006, 08:25 AM
Why not bring in Joey Harrington?

Casey Printers lost his starting job last year in the CFL. Anyone drinking his kool-aid thinking he might be something special, and worthy of being an NFL #2, is certainly reaching.


the chiefs have a good history of getting good players from the canadian football league-

i believe printers lost his job due to injury-

not saying he will be great or even good- but i think the plan would be for him to start eventually- not be a back up-

it's a shot-.....but the chiefs have in general made trades for qb's....and with free agency ,they can always get greens replacement-

the big thing is the back up until green is gone- which hopefully won't be for a couple of years.......

joe horn-dante hall- lawerence tynes- all have become starters and they came from canada-

printers has a really strong arm,i wouldn't discount this guy-

doug flutie also got his start in canada-

i believe the chiefs will try and get harrington- but,he is no guaranteed star either.....

I think it makes no sense to worry about greens replacement at this point-


what the chiefs need to worry about is getting some pass rushing help-because with out it they are going to have pass coverage problems,no matter which cb's they put back there

jspchief
03-22-2006, 08:26 AM
Sow how many of you think Harrington is a chance to be a great QB?

I don't think he'll ever be one. That's why I don't want him to be a QBotF candidate for us. I don't want to put my hope in a guy that someday might be "pretty okay". I'd much rather take my chance at finding a Brady or Delhomme. Free Agency will always have the Joey Harringtons if we're really in a QB pinch. Retread starters are a dime a dozen. My concern is that we'll give up on the search for the next Tom Brady, because we're content with "pretty good Joey".

StcChief
03-22-2006, 08:28 AM
Harrington's problem was Det-riot Oline, coaches, WRs
no RB....

Other than that he has the tools, bring him in.
Might just be our QBoF.

Chiefnj
03-22-2006, 08:34 AM
Harrington sucks and isn't a good leader. Carr has gotten bounced on his head from a poor OL much more than Harrington, but still has the respect of his teammates and you can see flashes of a good QB unerneath it all. Harrington is similar to Grbac. Run away from Detroit because Dre Bly criticized you? C'mon. He's the QB, it's his job to lead and tell Bly to shut the hell up.

Cormac
03-22-2006, 08:39 AM
In typical CP fashion people are camped on far opposite ends of this argument. There is a big range between "suck" and "Joe". Here's a reach, but Harrington probably falls somewhere in the middle. I bet that none of Harrington's supporters (myself included) think he is the next coming of Joe. For Christ's sake, we arguing about the replacement for Todd Collins! Does anybody really think that Harrington is not an upgrade from Collins?

jspchief
03-22-2006, 08:42 AM
In typical CP fashion people are camped on far opposite ends of this argument. There is a big range between "suck" and "Joe". Here's a reach, but Harrington probably falls somewhere in the middle. I bet that none of Harrington's supporters (myself included) think he is the next coming of Joe. For Christ's sake, we arguing about the replacement for Todd Collins! Does anybody really think that Harrington is not an upgrade from Collins?As I already said, I have no problem with him as the #2.

My concern is that we'll pencil him in as the next #1, effectively killing our search for a great QB to settle for "better than Todd".

Chiefnj
03-22-2006, 08:43 AM
Does anybody really think that Harrington is not an upgrade from Collins?

I haven't seen any evidence of it.

There is also an important distinction between the role that Collins and Harrington would probably play. I don't think anyone thought that Collins would be a QBOTF. He was the type of player that you put in when the starter goes down, that you hope doesn't lose the game for you. Harrington is more in the mold (because of age and draft status) of a QB the team may be looking to develop in a year or so when Trent retires. I have a problem with that and would rather they try to develop their own QB, one who is a better leader.

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 08:50 AM
Sow how many of you think Harrington is a chance to be a great QB?

I don't think he'll ever be one. That's why I don't want him to be a QBotF candidate for us. I don't want to put my hope in a guy that someday might be "pretty okay". I'd much rather take my chance at finding a Brady or Delhomme.Delhomme?! He spent five years in New Orleans getting next to no PT, throwing for 3 TDs and 5 INTs. He then had a decidedly middling year in Carolina before his very solid 2004 and 2005 seasons.

And yes, if Trent Green (retread) and Jake ****ing Plummer (retread) can be Pro Bowl QBs, I think Joey still has a chance.

MVChiefFan
03-22-2006, 08:53 AM
I have a question. Everyone is talking like we have Harrington, is this true? I haven't heard any news. Or, is it a done deal in everyone's opinion? Or is this just a purely hypothetical situation we're discussing? Just curious.

jspchief
03-22-2006, 08:53 AM
Delhomme?! He spent five years in New Orleans getting next to no PT, throwing for 3 TDs and 5 INTs. He then had a decidedly middling year in Carolina before his very solid 2004 and 2005 seasons.So what your saying is that once he got a chance, it took him a little over a year to turn into a very solid QB?

Meanwhile, Harrington hasn't been able to accomplish that in 4 years.

The Bad Guy
03-22-2006, 08:59 AM
the chiefs have a good history of getting good players from the canadian football league-

i believe printers lost his job due to injury-

not saying he will be great or even good- but i think the plan would be for him to start eventually- not be a back up-

it's a shot-.....but the chiefs have in general made trades for qb's....and with free agency ,they can always get greens replacement-

the big thing is the back up until green is gone- which hopefully won't be for a couple of years.......

joe horn-dante hall- lawerence tynes- all have become starters and they came from canada-

printers has a really strong arm,i wouldn't discount this guy-

doug flutie also got his start in canada-

i believe the chiefs will try and get harrington- but,he is no guaranteed star either.....

I think it makes no sense to worry about greens replacement at this point-


what the chiefs need to worry about is getting some pass rushing help-because with out it they are going to have pass coverage problems,no matter which cb's they put back there

No sense? The guy is 36 years old. Of course you worry about replacing him. He's not going to play forever.

Dante Hall also never came from Canada.

StcChief
03-22-2006, 09:01 AM
So what your saying is that once he got a chance, it took him a little over a year to turn into a very solid QB?

Meanwhile, Harrington hasn't been able to accomplish that in 4 years.

It's the Det-roit environment. what a bad organization led by Millen.
how many coaches and schemes has he seen in 4 years.
With really bad players and new rookies around him.

Worth a shot as backup. may/maynot be our next QB.

TEX
03-22-2006, 09:06 AM
No sense? The guy is 36 years old. Of course you worry about replacing him. He's not going to play forever.

Dante Hall also never came from Canada.

For that matter - did Joe Horn?

Cormac
03-22-2006, 09:21 AM
I haven't seen any evidence of it.

There is also an important distinction between the role that Collins and Harrington would probably play. I don't think anyone thought that Collins would be a QBOTF. He was the type of player that you put in when the starter goes down, that you hope doesn't lose the game for you. Harrington is more in the mold (because of age and draft status) of a QB the team may be looking to develop in a year or so when Trent retires. I have a problem with that and would rather they try to develop their own QB, one who is a better leader.

Fair point about their different roles. The thing I like about Harrington is that he is obviously very talented, and will come to us at a low price. I think that most of his problems were because of the organisation/O-line etc. in Detroit. I think he could flourish in our system, especially with LJ and our line. If he plays well, I have no doubt he can be a leader. He probably just needs a year or two to build some confidence and get his act together in another system. In the end I think he could be somebody very like Trent Green. Having said all that, my ideal scenario is that we sign him, and still draft a QBOTF to cover ourselves. If we went into this season with Green-Harrington-Croyle as our QBs, that would be brilliant. Signing Harrington would be a good start to getting to that point.

I just remember when we had Ted White at camp about 5 years ago, the board went mad because we had a potential QBOTF. We've had nothing but retreads since then, and I think Harrington falls under the heading of QBOTF. Bring him on board, I say. Don't expect him to be the QBOTF, but, by all means, give him a chance to be.

JMO.

Cormac
03-22-2006, 09:21 AM
For that matter - did Joe Horn?

He was drafted too, IIRC.

TEX
03-22-2006, 09:27 AM
He was drafted too, IIRC.

Yep. In the 4th round if I remember correctly. I didn't think he came from Canada. Dude has him mixed up with Boerigter.

Chiefnj
03-22-2006, 09:29 AM
The thing I like about Harrington is that he is obviously very talented, and will come to us at a low price.



That is where we disagree. I don't see the talent, although I admit I sure as hell haven't watched a lot of Lion games. In my incomplete picture of the Lions I see Harrington as part of the problem in Detroit, and not a guy who was a solution that was dragged down by others.

To each his own. What we think doesn't matte one iota. If Carl has a liking for him he'll go after him just like he zeroed in on Herm.

milkman
03-22-2006, 09:35 AM
He was drafted too, IIRC.

I believe that Horn went to Canada after junior College, and was a 5th round draft pick by the Chiefs when he became eligible for the draft.

I decided to look it up, and yes he did play in the CFL, for the Memphis Mad Dogs, before being drafted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 09:45 AM
Interesting... :hmmm:

Green's two FULL seasons, before "making it big:"

Age: 31 in 2001--36 in 2006
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
1998 Wash 15 14 509 278 54.6 3441 6.76 75 23 11 49/338 40 7 81.8
2001 KC 16 16 523 296 56.6 3783 7.23 67 17 24 39/198 51 12 71.1

Harrington's last two seasons:

Age: 27 in 2005--28 in 2006
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2004 Detroit 16 16 489 274 56.0 3047 6.23 62 19 12 36/196 43 4 77.5
2005 Detroit 12 11 330 188 57.0 2021 6.12 86 12 12 24/136 23 6 72.0

Not a big difference, really; especially given the quality of players surrounding Green versus the quality of players surrounding Harrington.... :hmmm:

Don't misunderstand me, guys: I love Trent Green. I just think Harrington is being dismissed way to quickly by some....

milkman
03-22-2006, 09:50 AM
That is where we disagree. I don't see the talent, although I admit I sure as hell haven't watched a lot of Lion games. In my incomplete picture of the Lions I see Harrington as part of the problem in Detroit, and not a guy who was a solution that was dragged down by others.

To each his own. What we think doesn't matte one iota. If Carl has a liking for him he'll go after him just like he zeroed in on Herm.

I disagree with your belief that Harrington doesn't have the talent.

Watching him at Oregon, this was a kid that had almost all the tools.

The problem, IMO, is that he was just thrown into the fire on a very bad Detroit team, never received good coaching, or support, from Marriucci and his staff, and has lost confidence in himself as a result.

Give him a couple of years behind Green to regain his confidence, get good coaching, and he's a kid that could blossom into an outstanding NFL QB.

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 10:00 AM
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:


Green's two FULL seasons, before "making it big:"

Age: 31 in 2001--36 in 2006
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
1998 Wash 15 14 509 278 54.6 3441 6.76 75 23 11 49/338 40 7 81.8
2001 KC 16 16 523 296 56.6 3783 7.23 67 17 24 39/198 51 12 71.1

Harrington's last two seasons:

Age: 27 in 2005--28 in 2006
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2004 Detroit 16 16 489 274 56.0 3047 6.23 62 19 12 36/196 43 4 77.5
2005 Detroit 12 11 330 188 57.0 2021 6.12 86 12 12 24/136 23 6 72.0

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

Chiefnj
03-22-2006, 10:00 AM
The problem, IMO, is that he was just thrown into the fire on a very bad Detroit team, never received good coaching, or support, from Marriucci and his staff, and has lost confidence in himself as a result.

.

Why do you say he didn't receive good coaching from a guy like Mariucci? Mariucci helped develop Favre and did a decent job in SF getting the 49ers to the playoffs in 4 of his 6 seasons there.

milkman
03-22-2006, 10:15 AM
Why do you say he didn't receive good coaching from a guy like Mariucci? Mariucci helped develop Favre and did a decent job in SF getting the 49ers to the playoffs in 4 of his 6 seasons there.

Who did Mariuci develop, really?

He gets credit for helping develop Favre, but I think that Holmgren gets the real credit.

Jeff Garcia brought his game from Canada, and Mooch didn't/couldn't develop any kids in SF.

He had not only Harrington, but Mike McMahan in Detroit, and it appeared that McMahan regressed after Mooch got there.

I don't think Mooch ever bought into Harrington.
His talents don't really fit all that well into the WCO, and Mooch never seemed to adjust his game to fit.

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 10:20 AM
Why do you say he didn't receive good coaching from a guy like Mariucci? Mariucci helped develop Favre and did a decent job in SF getting the 49ers to the playoffs in 4 of his 6 seasons there.

Holmgren had a lot more to do with Favre than anything else--read some of Brett's interviews. He barely mentions Mooch.

Mooch is an okay coach; but he didn't exactly set the world on fire in Detroit...he seemed more content, as if he'd lost the fire that help him to build those 49er teams, IMO. :hmmm:

Cormac
03-22-2006, 10:21 AM
That is where we disagree. I don't see the talent, although I admit I sure as hell haven't watched a lot of Lion games. In my incomplete picture of the Lions I see Harrington as part of the problem in Detroit, and not a guy who was a solution that was dragged down by others.

To each his own. What we think doesn't matte one iota. If Carl has a liking for him he'll go after him just like he zeroed in on Herm.

I base my "talent" evaluation on the fact that he was 3rd overall pick in the draft. He obviously impressed a lot of people in college and in pre-draft workouts etc. I don't know much about him either, but I like his upside. We know what he can do. So far it's not much, but it looks like he hasn't fulfilled his potential yet - which I blame on the Lions organisation as much as anything. I think he defines "low risk-high reward" at this juncture.

Again, for the sake of context - Todd Collins is history PBJ

;)

Cormac
03-22-2006, 10:23 AM
...he seemed more content, as if he'd lost the fire that help him to build those 49er teams, IMO. :hmmm:

I don't know about that. He looked like he'd been dragged through a bush backwards by the end of his tenure. To me, it seemed like he was working himself to death. JMO.

FringeNC
03-22-2006, 10:23 AM
I broke down several tapes of Harrington when I was interning.

That is one of the most ridiculous comparisons I have ever read on this board. Harrington has much more arm strength than Pennington. Much more. It's not even close.

He was dumped because he wanted out. Martz and Marinelli were singing his praises when they got there. Joey sabotaged the QB school Martz had. Instead of keeping an unhappy player around, they are cutting ties.

Name the last successful QB in Detroit.

He has talent. It's obvious you chose to ignore that and make ridiculous statements about his strengths and weaknesses.

Afterall, we have so many other young backup options. I guess you took a sip of the Casey Printers kool-aid too.

What QB wouldn't want to be groomed by Martz? Green, Warner, Bulger...all of them Pro Bowlers. What was Harrington thinking? My guess is that if Martz thought Harrington was any good, he would have conveyed that to him, and Harrington would have stayed. I am not really against signing Harrington, but have little hope that he will be anything more than a backup caliber player.

jAZ
03-22-2006, 10:26 AM
We haven't had a QBOTF prospect like Harrington in a loooong time. He has the makings of a high-probablity turn-around guy. He's worth a shot as our #2 QBOTF, in large part because there is next to no harm that can come from it.

I trust that Herm, Shea and CP will have evaluated him sufficiently to (at least in their minds) affirm his potential upside. Any deal will likely be cap friendly with a forcible renegotiation after 1 year. That year will give them extensive work with him to see if he has an NFL starter's future.

There is no downside, and long-term upside like we haven't had in a decade or more.

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 10:27 AM
I don't know about that. He looked like he'd been dragged through a bush backwards by the end of his tenure. To me, it seemed like he was working himself to death. JMO.

Lion's fans I know, don't agree; they say he had a lot of personal stuff going on too....which is one of the reasons he didn't push for a job this year. Kinda like the year Marty left KC....:shrug:

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 10:29 AM
We haven't had a QBOTF prospect like Harrington in a loooong time. He has the makings of a high-probablity turn-around guy. He's worth a shot as our #2 QBOTF, in large part because there is next to no harm that can come from it.

I trust that Herm, Shea and CP will have evaluated him sufficiently to (at least in their minds) affirm his potential upside. Any deal will likely be cap friendly with a forcible renegotiation after 1 year. That year will give them extensive work with him to see if he has an NFL starter's future.

There is no downside, and long-term upside like we haven't had in a decade or more.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Erase EVERYTHING I just said.... :banghead:







HARRINGTON SUCKS!!!





Heh. ;)

Cormac
03-22-2006, 10:30 AM
Lion's fans I know, don't agree; they say he had a lot of personal stuff going on

....interesting.....:hmmm:

Rausch
03-22-2006, 10:39 AM
Lion's fans I know, don't agree; they say he had a lot of personal stuff going on too....which is one of the reasons he didn't push for a job this year. Kinda like the year Marty left KC....:shrug:

Harrington was banging Greg Hill's girlfriend?...

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 11:20 AM
Harrington was banging Greg Hill's girlfriend?...

Heh. Not exactly....but somewhat along those lines, and involving other "lines".....but it's all just inuendo and rumor. I just think he'd have aggressively sought another job, had there not been something to them...:shrug:

|Zach|
03-22-2006, 11:22 AM
I would love to see Harrington here.

Spicy McHaggis
03-22-2006, 11:32 AM
I don't think Mooch ever bought into Harrington.
His talents don't really fit all that well into the WCO, and Mooch never seemed to adjust his game to fit.

I agree completely with this. He brought in his coach's pet in Garciaand Harrington knew he was always only a pick or two away from being yanked and sat.

Harrington has the talent to be a starter. Best case scenario he learns from Green for a year and then comes into his own. He probably cost little to no compensation to acquire and the reward is potentially great. If it works out it sets us up in the QB department for years. Worst case scenario, Harrington can't get it together, fizzles as a starter becomes a career #2 but is still better than Huard.

KCChiefsFan88
03-22-2006, 12:59 PM
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:


Green's two FULL seasons, before "making it big:"

Age: 31 in 2001--36 in 2006
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
1998 Wash 15 14 509 278 54.6 3441 6.76 75 23 11 49/338 40 7 81.8
2001 KC 16 16 523 296 56.6 3783 7.23 67 17 24 39/198 51 12 71.1

Harrington's last two seasons:

Age: 27 in 2005--28 in 2006
Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
2004 Detroit 16 16 489 274 56.0 3047 6.23 62 19 12 36/196 43 4 77.5
2005 Detroit 12 11 330 188 57.0 2021 6.12 86 12 12 24/136 23 6 72.0

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

Funny how you left out the 2000 season for Trent Green... so I'll add it for you:

G: GS: Att: Comp: Pct: Yards: TD: INT: Rating:
8 5 240 145 60.4 2063 16 5 101.8


Now show me where Harrington has had a season even remotely close to that. And also look at the fact that 2 pretty good offensive-minds... Mooch and Martz both viewed Harrington as a failure... and I don't see how you can view Harrington as anything BUT a bust.

Tribal Warfare
03-22-2006, 01:11 PM
HOW DARE YOU GUYS!!! Casey Printer's developed the cold fusion formula, but forgot it when he was banging two chicks.

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 01:40 PM
Mooch and Martz both viewed Harrington as a failure...

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060226/SPORTS0101/602260399/1126/SPORTS0101

When he was hired by head coach Rod Marinelli, Martz said he had a good feeling about Harrington's potential. After analyzing game tapes for the last week, Martz has developed an even more positive opinion.

"There's a lot to like," Martz said. "He's been through a number of systems and coaches. I didn't know what kind of player he is. He's got terrific skills.

. . . "The qualities I saw in college, I want that to come back," Martz said. "We thought he was a real good prospect. He's better than I thought he was, skill-wise. After watching him now on tape, I think he's terrific."

---

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9267624

It's not only that Martz wasn't critical of Harrington; it's that he was supportive of him. Tell me the last time you found someone in Detroit in that camp.

That's significant, but so is this: Detroit has cap room to afford a free-agent like, say, quarterback Drew Brees of San Diego, and move on without Joey Harrington. Listening to Martz, it doesn't sound as if that will happen.

"From a skills standpoint he is better than I thought he was coming out," said Martz. "I'm real excited about coaching this guy."

Steve Mariucci was not, and look what happened there. Mariucci, critical of Harrington during most of his head-coaching tenure with the Lions, was fired last November after the Lions -- and Harrington -- floundered.

. . . Critics decried his performance and called for a change. But pay attention to what Martz said about the guy, and draw your own conclusions.

"We have to start at ground zero and go from there," said Martz. "It's a whole new system, and we're starting over. Any time you don't do well, the coach and the quarterback take all the heat. But I really like what I saw.

"When you get blamed for everything everybody gets defensive. I guess I probably should know. Everybody gets that way. That's the competitor in you. To his credit, there are some things that happened. But I told him, 'Just keep quiet and get yourself ready to play. I'll worry about those other things. You worry about getting ready to play.'" Martz's worries aren't confined to the quarterback. He readily acknowledged the team's offensive line must improve. He believes he has enough targets for Harrington, but there's that sticky question of getting returns from Charles Rogers and, now, Mike Williams. And while he didn't address the team's rushing attack, he will. Give him time. The Lions ranked a sorry 26th last season.

milkman
03-22-2006, 01:43 PM
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060226/SPORTS0101/602260399/1126/SPORTS0101

When he was hired by head coach Rod Marinelli, Martz said he had a good feeling about Harrington's potential. After analyzing game tapes for the last week, Martz has developed an even more positive opinion.

"There's a lot to like," Martz said. "He's been through a number of systems and coaches. I didn't know what kind of player he is. He's got terrific skills.

. . . "The qualities I saw in college, I want that to come back," Martz said. "We thought he was a real good prospect. He's better than I thought he was, skill-wise. After watching him now on tape, I think he's terrific."

--

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9267624


When he was hired by head coach Rod Marinelli, Martz said he had a good feeling about Harrington's potential. After analyzing game tapes for the last week, Martz has developed an even more positive opinion.

"There's a lot to like," Martz said. "He's been through a number of systems and coaches. I didn't know what kind of player he is. He's got terrific skills.

Stop it.
You're ruining a perfectly good argument with facts.

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 01:46 PM
Stop it.
You're ruining a perfectly good argument with facts.I must say, it sounds like Martz was really down on him.

Gonzo
03-22-2006, 01:49 PM
This conversation is far too intense...
Here's somthing to lighten the mood.

My name is Elpancho
I work on a Rancho
I'm making five paeso's a day...
I go and see Lucy
I jump on her Poosie
She takes my five Paeso's away!

jspchief
03-22-2006, 01:50 PM
I must say, it sounds like Martz was really down on him.Yea, because usually when a new coach comes to a team and wants to turn around a struggling offense captained by a QB with no confidence, he starts the process by publically trashing the QB.

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 01:51 PM
I hate the picker's bunkhouse. :(

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 01:52 PM
Yea, because usually when a new coach comes to a team and wants to turn around a struggling offense captained by a QB with no confidence, he starts the process by publically trashing the QB.We get it. Harrington sucks. He's a talentless hack who will be lucky to get a job at Burger King. Martz secretly hated what he saw on film, which is why his comments were so glowing.

Also, David Carr is Jesus incarnate.

jspchief
03-22-2006, 01:57 PM
We get it. Harrington sucks. He's a talentless hack who will be lucky to get a job at Burger King. Martz secretly hated what he saw on film, which is why his comments were so glowing.

Also, David Carr is Jesus incarnate.Oops. Sorry for offering a conflicting viewpoint.

FringeNC
03-22-2006, 02:38 PM
We get it. Harrington sucks. He's a talentless hack who will be lucky to get a job at Burger King. Martz secretly hated what he saw on film, which is why his comments were so glowing.

Also, David Carr is Jesus incarnate.

Vermeil talked up Grbac, too. I find it hard to believe that if Martz was high on Harrington that Harrington would be stupid enough to not want to play for the best QB coach around. Maybe he is.

nychief
03-22-2006, 06:43 PM
From Peteson's remarks in this mornings Star, i think Joey will be a Chief for a later rnd pick.

milkman
03-22-2006, 06:59 PM
From Peteson's remarks in this mornings Star, i think Joey will be a Chief for a later rnd pick.

Haven't read this morning's Star.

Care to shed a little light?

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 07:05 PM
Funny how you left out the 2000 season for Trent Green... so I'll add it for you:

G: GS: Att: Comp: Pct: Yards: TD: INT: Rating:
8 5 240 145 60.4 2063 16 5 101.8


Now show me where Harrington has had a season even remotely close to that. And also look at the fact that 2 pretty good offensive-minds... Mooch and Martz both viewed Harrington as a failure... and I don't see how you can view Harrington as anything BUT a bust.

I'll bet I can find an 8 game stretch where he came close....8 games is a HALF year, dude. And he had the GREATEST SHOW ON TURF around him, playing a soft, soft schedule....

I'm not saying this to diss Green; Green's a good QB....but Harrington isn't nearly as bad--at this point in his career, as some portray him. That's all I'm saying...

Sure-Oz
03-22-2006, 07:32 PM
Haven't read this morning's Star.

Care to shed a little light?
I'm thinkin this has to do with that repost thread i made hehe

nychief
03-22-2006, 07:36 PM
Haven't read this morning's Star.

Care to shed a little light?


typical CP speak, "we have had some discussions.... we where high on him in college... we are going to reevaluate him as a pro.... he is still on another teams roster.... blah blah blah.." The stuff that he says when he is trying to drive the price down.

KCChiefsFan88
03-22-2006, 07:39 PM
Stop it.
You're ruining a perfectly good argument with facts.


Actually the fact that overrides the quotes in both of those articles (which were dated just a few weeks after Martz was hired as OC) is the fact the Lions signed two free agent QBs to replace Harrington. If Martz really felt that highly of Harrington, why is he still in Detroit? Why did the Lions sign not one but TWO free agent QBs to replace Harrington?

KCChiefsFan88
03-22-2006, 07:40 PM
If Martz really felt that highly of Harrington, why is he still in Detroit?

is= isn't

KCChiefsFan88
03-22-2006, 07:43 PM
I'll bet I can find an 8 game stretch where he came close....8 games is a HALF year, dude. And he had the GREATEST SHOW ON TURF around him, playing a soft, soft schedule....

I'm not saying this to diss Green; Green's a good QB....but Harrington isn't nearly as bad--at this point in his career, as some portray him. That's all I'm saying...

But the difference as those stats and other stats show is Trent Green at least displayed the potential of being a good starting QB.

He had solid #s in Washington in 1998 and he had solid #'s during that 8 game stretch or so with the Rams. The only bad year Trent Green has had as a starter was his first year in KC when he had the likes of Larry Parker and Snoop Minnis to throw to. Joey Harrington hasn't shown ANY flashes of potential with the Detroit. You can't say that he hasn't had talent around him, because he has.

milkman
03-22-2006, 07:44 PM
Actually the fact that overrides the quotes in both of those articles (which were dated just a few weeks after Martz was hired as OC) is the fact the Lions signed two free agent QBs to replace Harrington. If Martz really felt that highly of Harrington, why is he still in Detroit? Why did the Lions sign not one but TWO free agent QBs to replace Harrington?

Because Harrington came to the realization that he wanted out, in spite of the coaching changes.

He was an unenthusiastic participant in the Lions QB school with Martz.

milkman
03-22-2006, 07:46 PM
But the difference as those stats and other stats show is Trent Green at least displayed the potential of being a good starting QB.

He had solid #s in Washington in 1998 and he had solid #'s during that 8 game stretch or so with the Rams. The only bad year Trent Green has had as a starter was his first year in KC when he had the likes of Larry Parker and Snoop Minnis to throw to. Joey Harrington hasn't shown ANY flashes of potential with the Detroit. You can't say that he hasn't had talent around him, because he has.

I disagree.

The WRs he's had to work with either can't stay healthy, are inexperienced, or drop passes like they were hot potatoes.

The Bad Guy
03-22-2006, 07:57 PM
Harrington had a pretty nice game against the champs in their own house in Week 17.

Ultra Peanut
03-22-2006, 08:01 PM
You can't say that he hasn't had talent around him, because he has.Roy Williams has been decent. Charlie Rogers is made of glass and has played in a whopping 15 games over three years, Mike Williams was a rookie who didn't exactly set the world on fire, and Kevin Jones isn't quite the second coming of Barry Sanders just yet. Toss in a crap O-Line, and it's hardly as if Harrington is what's keeping the Lions from the Super Bowl.

Mr. Kotter
03-22-2006, 08:10 PM
... Joey Harrington hasn't shown ANY flashes of potential with the Detroit. You can't say that he hasn't had talent around him, because he has.

That's where you are wrong. Living where I do, I've seen him have some solid games....look 'em up yourself if you don't believe me. I agree he hasn't been as consistent as you'd like. However, at best...he's had inexperienced-rookie WRs around him, but NOTHING else really: no Line, no RB, and an inconsistent "D." I suspect Green would not have done nearly as well in Detroit these past four years....

Frankie
03-22-2006, 09:47 PM
Harrington sucks and isn't a good leader. Carr has gotten bounced on his head from a poor OL much more than Harrington, but still has the respect of his teammates and you can see flashes of a good QB unerneath it all. Harrington is similar to Grbac. Run away from Detroit because Dre Bly criticized you? C'mon. He's the QB, it's his job to lead and tell Bly to shut the hell up.
Looks a bit like Grbac too.:(

http://www.joeyharrington3.com/prodimages/Poster.jpg

That said, I think getting him cheap would not be a bad idea. And, for the record, between the two "blue chip" QBs of that draft who have so far gone bust, I much prefer David Carr too.

milkman
03-22-2006, 09:55 PM
That said, I think getting him cheap would not be a bad idea. And, for the record, between the two "blue chip" QBs of that draft who have so far gone bust, I much prefer David Carr too.

A big reason that Joey lost his confidence, and that Bly blamed him, is that Mooch consistently placed the blame squarely on Harrington.

And Carr takes a lot of his sacks because, even after all this time in the league, he still holds the ball for far too long, a problem he has had since his school days.

He apparently can't learn.