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KHinz57
03-22-2006, 11:47 AM
Considering the success the Denver Broncos had with it, maybe the Chiefs should explore something like that with New York Jets. Do something like this:

NEW YORK JETS GET:
20th Overall Pick in 1st Round
4th Round Pick in 2006
3rd Round Pick in 2007

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS GET:
4th Overall Pick in 1st Round

That way we have the chance to grab Mario Williams who is supposed to be a "can't miss" ready to contribute DE.

milkman
03-22-2006, 11:51 AM
I would love to get Mario Williams in KC, but that price is far to expensive.

If we didn't have like a gazillion holes to fill, that trade wouldn't be all that impractical.

However, by making that kind of a deal, you only allow yourself to address one need in the draft.

I don't intend to be insulting, but that kind of trade would just be a stupid one on the Chiefs part.

KHinz57
03-22-2006, 11:55 AM
Even considering in the late rounds or in ANY round for that matter, doesn't history prove that with Carl Peterson at the healm, we're gonna make a bad choice anyways? Why not trade away some of those Omar Easy, Eric Downing picks away for an ultimate solution to DE.

The Bad Guy
03-22-2006, 11:57 AM
I would love to get Mario Williams in KC, but that price is far to expensive.

If we didn't have like a gazillion holes to fill, that trade wouldn't be all that impractical.

However, by making that kind of a deal, you only allow yourself to address one need in the draft.

I don't intend to be insulting, but that kind of trade would just be a stupid one on the Chiefs part.

I like your takes on here, but that's lunacy to say that the Chiefs shouldn't make a move like that.

To go from 20-4 and only give up a fourth this year, which we don't have anyway, and a third next year for a game-changing DE?

You're only losing a 4 this year.

While it would be nice, it would NEVER happen because we'd have to give up two future #1s along with our second this year just to get the Jets attention.

The value to move up from 20-4 is huge.

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:03 PM
Even considering in the late rounds or in ANY round for that matter, doesn't history prove that with Carl Peterson at the healm, we're gonna make a bad choice anyways? Why not trade away some of those Omar Easy, Eric Downing picks away for an ultimate solution to DE.

History tells us that the Chiefs have made some bad selections.

Evidence suggests strongly that Carl has made selections based on his coach's desires.

I am neither a fan of Carl or Hermie, but I have to believe that Hermie, with his background in scouting and defense, will make better recommendations than Dick did.

Tamba Hali or Broderick Bunkley will most likely be there at #20.
There are going to be some good players available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

I'd rather take my chances with 3 picks.

KHinz57
03-22-2006, 12:03 PM
How about with the Raiders, nab that #7 pick from them if they sign Aaron Brooks who could flourish with Moss and Porter. Brooks plays better on grass anyways. The Raiders really don't know who they'd get anyways, although Vince Young or Jay Cutler may look probable. If the Chiefs had the #7 Overall Pick in the Draft they could have a shot at AJ Hawk. Then we really could let go of all that salary Kendrell Bell has.

Mile High Mania
03-22-2006, 12:06 PM
Hinz... there's no way that a trade offer like you threw out there would ever be considered. A #20, R4 and next year's R3 for this year's 4th overall? Not a chance.

Hell, I don't think Denver could move up to #4 by offering both of their R1 picks (#15 and #22) this year.

And, KC trading up with the Raiders? C'mon...

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:07 PM
I like your takes on here, but that's lunacy to say that the Chiefs shouldn't make a move like that.

To go from 20-4 and only give up a fourth this year, which we don't have anyway, and a third next year for a game-changing DE?

You're only losing a 4 this year.

While it would be nice, it would NEVER happen because we'd have to give up two future #1s along with our second this year just to get the Jets attention.

The value to move up from 20-4 is huge.

I should have read his proposal a little more closely.

I'm so used to people proposing rediculous ideas, I read as this years picks only.

1punkyQB
03-22-2006, 12:17 PM
Evidence suggests strongly that Carl has made selections based on his coach's desires. I'm not sure Carl can use that as a defense since he also hired the coaches (and he's done okay at that, actually, with the exception of Gun). Art Shell thought he could develop Trezelle Jenkins, but the decision is ultimately Carl's. Hard to pass the buck on draft day if you're the GM. It's not like he fears confrontation.

KCTitus
03-22-2006, 12:20 PM
...That way we have the chance to grab Mario Williams who is supposed to be a "can't miss" ready to contribute DE.

Right...another 'cant miss' player like Ryan Sims.

edit...there's no way that any team moves from 20 to 4 by swaping firsts and a 3rd and 4th. Get serious.

Gonzo
03-22-2006, 12:21 PM
Considering the success the Denver Broncos had with it, maybe the Chiefs should explore something like that with New York Jets. Do something like this:

NEW YORK JETS GET:
20th Overall Pick in 1st Round
4th Round Pick in 2006
3rd Round Pick in 2007

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS GET:
4th Overall Pick in 1st Round

That way we have the chance to grab Mario Williams who is supposed to be a "can't miss" ready to contribute DE.

Yeah....and if my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.
Read the sig.

BigRock
03-22-2006, 12:24 PM
A lot of people are talking about the Jets trading up to #2, so they aren't too likely to trade down. And we're not going to trade with the Raiders. Rather than trying to talk in specifics that will never happen, it might be easier to speak generally.

I can't see us trading up. If anything, we could trade down if nobody Herm is wild about is there at #20... but unless some teams unexpectedly go for defense, there should be a few good names for us to choose from.

If some team wanted to do what the 'Skins did last year with Denver, and take KC's first round pick for some mid-rounders and their first round pick next year (giving us two), that would be fine with me.

If KC wanted to play the 'Skins role and try to get a second first round pick this year, getting us a CB and D-line help, I could live with that, too... as long as they don't make as dumb a deal as Washington did.

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:26 PM
I'm not sure Carl can use that as a defense since he also hired the coaches (and he's done okay at that, actually, with the exception of Gun). Art Shell thought he could develop Trezelle Jenkins, but the decision is ultimately Carl's. Hard to pass the buck on draft day if you're the GM. It's not like he fears confrontation.

I'm fully aware of that.

If you were around more, you would know my primary critisism of Carl, and the main reason I'll be glad when he's gone in four years (how many years is that in Car years?) is the choices he's made in selcting the HC.

I disagree that he's done ok with with any of his selections.

I wanted no part of Marty, or Dick, and pretty much got what I expected from their tenures as HC.

All I am saying, however, is let's give Hermie a chance to work with this draft with Carl, and let's see how it works.

1punkyQB
03-22-2006, 12:31 PM
Carl's drafting has stunk far more than his coach selections. Marty and Vermeil did better with different GM's. Tends to suggest he was the problem and not them.

KCTitus
03-22-2006, 12:34 PM
Carl's drafting has stunk far more than his coach selections. Marty and Vermeil did better with different GM's. Tends to suggest he was the problem and not them.

To the contrary...it's been well established that Carl typically defers to his coaches as far as the picks go. Carl did overrule DV on Larry Johnson and I for one am glad he did.

Im not sure how much better Marty has done with other GM's, I must have missed his SB trip.

1punkyQB
03-22-2006, 12:38 PM
Marty made it within an eyelash of the SB. Hard to blame him for Byner's fumble. Vermeil took two other franchises to the SB. The coach might recommend drafting a DT. Does that really mean he whispered "trade down and pick Junior Siavii" in Carl's ear? And if that's the problem, wouldn't he have put his foot down after over a decade to learn from his mistakes?

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:39 PM
To the contrary...it's been well established that Carl typically defers to his coaches as far as the picks go. Carl did overrule DV on Larry Johnson and I for one am glad he did.

Im not sure how much better Marty has done with other GM's, I must have missed his SB trip.

I'm sure he's attended.
Probably doesn't even have to pay for tickets.

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:41 PM
Marty made it within an eyelash of the SB. Hard to blame him for Byner's fumble. Vermeil took two other franchises to the SB. The coach might recommend drafting a DT. Does that really mean he whispered "trade down and pick Junior Siavii" in Carl's ear? And if that's the problem, wouldn't he have put his foot down after over a decade to learn from his mistakes?

Marty made it within an eyelash of tying the Broncos, and sending that game to OT.

If that happens, my money's on Elway vs. Marty in OT.

KCTitus
03-22-2006, 12:43 PM
Marty made it within an eyelash of the SB. Hard to blame him for Byner's fumble. Vermeil took two other franchises to the SB. The coach might recommend drafting a DT. Does that really mean he whispered "trade down and pick Junior Siavii" in Carl's ear? And if that's the problem, wouldn't he have put his foot down after over a decade to learn from his mistakes?

I believe Marty...no let me correct that....Montana in spite of Marty took KC to the AFC Championship as well. Consider that an 'eyelash' as well.

Again, it's pretty clear that CP allows the HC's to make their picks with rare exceptions. Witness the draft pick difference between Marty and DV's tenure.

About 5 years ago there was a 'war room' write up about Gun's pick of Sylvester Morris. It documented how Carl left it to Gun to pull the trigger.

Aside from Larry, Greg Hill was another 'Carl' pick. It's pretty easy to spot those players that werent HC picks. Unless you dont actually read the PC's from said HC's.

1punkyQB
03-22-2006, 12:43 PM
If that happens, my money's on Elway vs. Marty in OT. OT in the championship game is far closer than he and CP were able to get in KC.

Cormac
03-22-2006, 12:47 PM
Does anybody have that "draft value chart". It seems like Denver really stuck it to the Jets in that deal.

Just curious.

1punkyQB
03-22-2006, 12:49 PM
Aside from Larry, Greg Hill was another 'Carl' pick. It's pretty easy to spot those players that werent HC picks. Unless you dont actually read the PC's from said HC's. Couldn't Carl overrule them? If you go on a road trip and allow your wife to navigate, who's fault is it if you get lost? I'd give the majority of blame to you for expecting a woman to correctly read a map. Either Carl picked the players or allowed the coach to evaluate talent for him. The end result is screwed-up draft picks and the GM has to take the heat for that. I doubt Ron Wolf or Rich McKay would've done that.

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:50 PM
OT in the championship game is far closer than he and CP were able to get in KC.

Chiefs were just one game away with Montana at QB, a fact that Titus has already pointed out.

But, in the end, who cares?

They are all seasons that ended before the SB for every team that Marty has ever coached.

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:53 PM
Couldn't Carl overrule them? If you go on a road trip and allow your wife to navigate, who's fault is it if you get lost? I'd give the majority of blame to you for expecting a woman to correctly read a map. Either Carl picked the players or allowed the coach to evaluate talent for him. The end result is screwed-up draft picks and the GM has to take the heat for that. I doubt Ron Wolf or Rich McKay would've done that.

I'm not excusing Carl of his responsibility.

What I am saying is let's give Hermie a chance to work with Carl and see how things shape up before we start making any drastic moves.

milkman
03-22-2006, 12:55 PM
I'm not excusing Carl of his responsibility.

What I am saying is let's give Hermie a chance to work with Carl and see how things shape up before we start making any drastic moves.

On the other hand, I think a lot GMs and coaches work the draft in much the same way as Carl does with his coaches.

The difference is that in some of those cases, the coaching staff has done a better job.

KCTitus
03-22-2006, 12:55 PM
Couldn't Carl overrule them? If you go on a road trip and allow your wife to navigate, who's fault is it if you get lost? I'd give the majority of blame to you for expecting a woman to correctly read a map. Either Carl picked the players or allowed the coach to evaluate talent for him. The end result is screwed-up draft picks and the GM has to take the heat for that. I doubt Ron Wolf or Rich McKay would've done that.

Yes, I guess he could, but he deferred to the coaches whose JOB is to evaluate talent for their system. It's called delegating authority. Now, you may prefer the Jack Steadman model. Funny thing is, regardless, Carl's going to 'take the heat' from geniouses (chiefsplanet spelling) anyway--it's laid out in The Lexicon.

As for other GM's, you named Ron Wolf. If we're going on SB wins only, Wolf's success was due to a FA's not draft picks. Key names include Farve, Desmond Howard (SB MVP) and Reggie White--none of them drafted by the great Ron Wolf.

edit: I forgot Andre Rison, too.

KHinz57
03-22-2006, 01:13 PM
On the other hand, I think a lot GMs and coaches work the draft in much the same way as Carl does with his coaches.

The difference is that in some of those cases, the coaching staff has done a better job.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I guess you're going to tell us you're been in the war rooms around the NFL to witness this and know first hand just exactly what they do.

KCTitus
03-22-2006, 01:15 PM
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I guess you're going to tell us you're been in the war rooms around the NFL to witness this and know first hand just exactly what they do.

Did you know that ESPN has live draft coverage with cameras in the War Rooms of almost half of the teams? It's pretty neat.

milkman
03-22-2006, 01:16 PM
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I guess you're going to tell us you're been in the war rooms around the NFL to witness this and know first hand just exactly what they do.

Of course I don't.

You've already stated as much in your other thread, dumbass.

KHinz57
03-22-2006, 01:18 PM
Did you know that ESPN has live draft coverage with cameras in the War Rooms of almost half of the teams? It's pretty neat.

Oh ... I must've missed the one that actually had the GM and the Coach discussing player for player who they are going to get and why? I'm so foolish!

KCTitus
03-22-2006, 01:21 PM
Oh ... I must've missed the one that actually had the GM and the Coach discussing player for player who they are going to get and why? I'm so foolish!

Hey look...we can find agreement after all. :thumb:

Given your assumption, why would the coaches be in the room at all?

KHinz57
03-22-2006, 01:31 PM
Hey look...we can find agreement after all. :thumb:

Given your assumption, why would the coaches be in the room at all?

Maybe the war room is the only room in the complex that gets cable?

Furthermore, I also missed the soundclips where they show you their draft work and let you look on their draft board.

nascher
03-22-2006, 01:33 PM
pick 15 is worth about 1050 points per value chart.
Pick 29 640

3rd pick #87 155 points
and a future 4th rounder considered a 5th because of next year.

Pretty good deal for Denver.

KCTitus
03-22-2006, 01:44 PM
Maybe the war room is the only room in the complex that gets cable?

Furthermore, I also missed the soundclips where they show you their draft work and let you look on their draft board.

It's certainly possible that they only have one room that gets cable TV in the stadiums.

You're moving away from your initial assumption that coaches are not involved in the draft process by any other team besides KC. I appreciate the attempt to squiggle out of your initial faux pas.

Cormac
03-22-2006, 02:22 PM
pick 15 is worth about 1050 points per value chart.
Pick 29 640

3rd pick #87 155 points
and a future 4th rounder considered a 5th because of next year.

Pretty good deal for Denver.

Thanks nascher. I figured that. I guess Tags will see no reason not to approve it either.

Typical.

ct
03-22-2006, 02:55 PM
Considering the success the Denver Broncos had with it, maybe the Chiefs should explore something like that with New York Jets. Do something like this:

NEW YORK JETS GET:
20th Overall Pick in 1st Round
4th Round Pick in 2006
3rd Round Pick in 2007

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS GET:
4th Overall Pick in 1st Round

That way we have the chance to grab Mario Williams who is supposed to be a "can't miss" ready to contribute DE.


Your thought process is good, and if we could pull that off, hell yeah!! Here's the problem: Denver moved up from 29 to 15, and we would move up from 20 to 4, only slightly higher number of picks. BUT...the 4th overall is ridiculously more expensive than 15. Conclusion, it's not near enough.

milkman
03-22-2006, 03:02 PM
KHinz57
Banned


Well hell, that didn't take long!

nascher
03-22-2006, 04:07 PM
In fact 4th overall choice worth 1800 points.
20th 850.

Impossible to move up with all draft picks we have this year even a 1st rounder next year wouldn't be enough.

Tribal Warfare
03-22-2006, 04:10 PM
from what I've been told it's between Kiwi and Bunkley that KC's eyeing the most

Rausch
03-22-2006, 04:39 PM
Oh ... I must've missed the one that actually had the GM and the Coach discussing player for player who they are going to get and why? I'm so foolish!

If you'd like to take the time to look you can find video of numerous war room discussions. The Peterson/Marty discussion over Percy Snow is the first that comes to mind...

milkman
03-22-2006, 05:19 PM
If you'd like to take the time to look you can find video of numerous war room discussions. The Peterson/Marty discussion over Percy Snow is the first that comes to mind...

Since he's apparently been banned, I guess he'll have plenty of time to look.

HerculesRockefell
03-22-2006, 07:22 PM
from what I've been told it's between Kiwi and Bunkley that KC's eyeing the most

How far do they think they'll have to move up to get Bunkley? Because he's not lasting until #20.