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View Full Version : Americans, Mexicans oppose border fence:12 million illegal ?


ROYC75
03-22-2006, 05:47 PM
12 freaking million ? :eek:

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Both Mexicans and Americans oppose plans for a security fence along their border, according to a survey released on Wednesday that also showed Americans as more appreciative of Mexicans than vice versa.


Of 2,010 Mexicans and Americans surveyed by research groups CIDAC and Zogby International, 69 percent of Americans and 90 percent of Mexicans opposed a proposal in the U.S. Congress to build a fence along much of the 2,000-mile (3,200-km) border.

Relations between Mexicans and Americans are as complex as ever, and both sides said they saw each other more as "distant neighbors" than as "friends" or "partners."

On the whole, Americans questioned viewed Mexicans as hard-working and honest, while many Mexicans in the survey saw Americans as racist and intolerant.

Eighty-five percent of Americans had a favorable or very favorable impression of Mexicans, while 53 percent of Mexicans had an unfavorable or very unfavorable opinion of Americans.

Forty-four percent of Mexicans even said that U.S. culture had a negative impact on their country.

"It's much more critical on the Mexican side and much more open and friendly on the American side," said survey investigator Cesar Hernandez.

The poll was released in Mexico City, where economic research body CIDAC is based. Polling company Zogby International has its headquarters in Washington.

The survey comes as a U.S. Senate panel is debating a proposal to give some of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States an opportunity to earn citizenship. The panel will also discuss letting foreigners in as legal guest workers and giving them a chance to earn permanent status.

The survey, based on polling carried out in February, showed that 67 percent of Americans think Mexican immigrants make a positive contribution to the economy.

"They don't want the border to be sealed off. They don't want Mexican workers to stop coming into the United States," said investigator Juan Pardinas.

Mexicans were divided on the benefits of emigrating, however, with 47 percent saying going to the United States would not improve their lives and 45 percent saying it would.

Mexicans have a complex relationship with their northern neighbor, with many torn between begrudging Americans their wealth and their desire to live the American dream.

Mr. Laz
03-22-2006, 06:13 PM
seal that border up!!!


we can always let more people in if we want to

kcfanintitanhell
03-22-2006, 06:27 PM
Shit!
If they put fences up there goes my dream of sneaking across the border and getting a good paying job in Mexico.

JBucc
03-22-2006, 06:35 PM
forget fences, we need a minefield

Donger
03-22-2006, 06:46 PM
Screw the fence. Two warning shots, then a head shot if necessary.

Hydrae
03-22-2006, 06:53 PM
Good thing your ancestors got here before the border gets shut down, huh?

el borracho
03-22-2006, 06:56 PM
Seriously, how effective would a "security fence" really be? Sounds like a giant waste of time and money.

Mr. Laz
03-22-2006, 06:56 PM
Good thing your ancestors got here before the border gets shut down, huh?

dang skippy .... there wasn't bazillion people here already when they came over.

Donger
03-22-2006, 06:57 PM
Good thing your ancestors got here before the border gets shut down, huh?

Actually, I'm an immigrant. A legal one.

HemiEd
03-22-2006, 06:57 PM
We would be ****ed without them, they do the jobs we do not want to do. They pay into SS without any hope of every retrieving any of it, the good outweighs the bad IMO. Intelligence has no race barrier, I have met some truly amazing Mexicans.

Frazod
03-22-2006, 06:59 PM
forget fences, we need a minefield

I was thinking the border would be a great place to dispose of our toxic waste. Kill two birds with one stone. Besides, a big open trench would be much cheaper than a wall.

OnTheWarpath58
03-22-2006, 07:04 PM
Seriously, how effective would a "security fence" really be? Sounds like a giant waste of time and money.

No more than our current form of border patrol......

Donger
03-22-2006, 07:09 PM
We would be ****ed without them, they do the jobs we do not want to do. They pay into SS without any hope of every retrieving any of it, the good outweighs the bad IMO. Intelligence has no race barrier, I have met some truly amazing Mexicans.

You are aware that the they take FAR more in public funds than they give, are you not?

Hydrae
03-22-2006, 07:11 PM
You are aware that the they take FAR more in public funds than they give, are you not?


Stop that money flow then. Trying to stop people from coming here to better themselves is a fruitless as thinking you can eliminate terrorism from the world.

HemiEd
03-22-2006, 07:13 PM
You are aware that the they take FAR more in public funds than they give, are you not?


I would be very shocked with the evidence if that was true. However, even if that is true, who is going to do the jobs they do?

Baconeater
03-22-2006, 07:13 PM
We would be ****ed without them, they do the jobs we do not want to do. They pay into SS without any hope of every retrieving any of it, the good outweighs the bad IMO. Intelligence has no race barrier, I have met some truly amazing Mexicans.

In some cases, yes. But those who work in the construction trades have seen their wages remain stagnant for nearly a decade due to the influx of cheap foreign labor. More of us would do the jobs if they paid better.

Donger
03-22-2006, 07:14 PM
Stop that money flow then. Trying to stop people from coming here to better themselves is a fruitless as thinking you can eliminate terrorism from the world.

I've no problem with people coming here. Hell, I'm one of them. Just do it LEGALLY.

bogie
03-22-2006, 07:17 PM
We would be ****ed without them, they do the jobs we do not want to do. They pay into SS without any hope of every retrieving any of it, the good outweighs the bad IMO. Intelligence has no race barrier, I have met some truly amazing Mexicans.

We don't take the jobs they are taking because those jobs don't pay enough to survive. If they did not take those jobs for 1.95, people would start paying real wages for those jobs and we would take them. JMO

HemiEd
03-22-2006, 07:18 PM
In some cases, yes. But those who work in the construction trades have seen their wages remain stagnant for nearly a decade due to the influx of cheap foreign labor. More of us would do the jobs if they paid better.


At the risk of sending this thread to D.C., without the cheap labor, we will be using more import products. I understand that may not be true in the construction business, but it sure as hell is in the manufacturing sector. What is left of it.

Donger
03-22-2006, 07:19 PM
I would be very shocked with the evidence if that was true. However, even if that is true, who is going to do the jobs they do?

It is true.

I'd be just fine paying a premium for any product that was produced by non-illegal labor.

Skip Towne
03-22-2006, 07:19 PM
I've no problem with people coming here. Hell, I'm one of them. Just do it LEGALLY.
I haven't see Flo around. Did you run her off for good?

Donger
03-22-2006, 07:22 PM
I haven't see Flo around. Did you run her off for good?

I don't know. If so, that would be a shame.

Fruit Ninja
03-22-2006, 07:25 PM
So who wants to work in the fields? i gaurantee you no one that visits this board. I used to do field work as a teenager, becuase my neighbors are labor contractors. That shit is NOT fun. up at 3am, start picking tomatoes soon as there is light. 120 degree's plus them plants throw out a vapor that makes it even hotter. Your not going to find many people american born doing that shit i tell ya that much. So, no fence.

bogie
03-22-2006, 07:26 PM
I don't know. If so, that would be a shame.

Several people on CP are a class act, you are one of them.

Hydrae
03-22-2006, 07:27 PM
I've no problem with people coming here. Hell, I'm one of them. Just do it LEGALLY.

Now I do not know the details of how someone goes about immigrating here as I have never dealt with it. I am sure you can enlighten me on this.

My question to this comment is how does Jose Average in the hills of Mexico find out how to do this the right way? Even if he does, what are his chances that the officials will see any value to an uneducated farm worker?

jspchief
03-22-2006, 07:31 PM
So who wants to work in the fields? i gaurantee you no one that visits this board. I used to do field work as a teenager, becuase my neighbors are labor contractors. That shit is NOT fun. up at 3am, start picking tomatoes soon as there is light. 120 degree's plus them plants throw out a vapor that makes it even hotter. Your not going to find many people american born doing that shit i tell ya that much. So, no fence.And therein lies the problem folks. Lazy Americans have determined that there are certain jobs that are below them. God forbid you work for your money when you can pay a Mexican to do it for you.

Skip Towne
03-22-2006, 07:32 PM
I don't know. If so, that would be a shame.
Yes, yes it would. She has provided many hours of quality entertainment.

HemiEd
03-22-2006, 07:32 PM
It is true.

I'd be just fine paying a premium for any product that was produced by non-illegal labor.


That would be great if more were like you. However, that is not how this country is buying now. We continue to set records monthly for imports and no allegence to American products.

Donger
03-22-2006, 07:34 PM
Several people on CP are a class act, you are one of them.

You're kidding, right?

Donger
03-22-2006, 07:38 PM
Now I do not know the details of how someone goes about immigrating here as I have never dealt with it. I am sure you can enlighten me on this.

My question to this comment is how does Jose Average in the hills of Mexico find out how to do this the right way? Even if he does, what are his chances that the officials will see any value to an uneducated farm worker?

He has to want to not break the laws of his new country.

I was naturalized in 1993, after having green cards for seven years, IIRC. Most of the other 100+ people in that courtroom were from Latin America. They CAN immigrate legally, but the vast majority choose not to.

bogie
03-22-2006, 07:42 PM
You're kidding, right?

nope, very serious.

jspchief
03-22-2006, 07:43 PM
I work in the roofing industry, and go into a lot of detail about the negative impact of illegal immigrants in my field. The amount of wages that are being earned tax free are beyond your comprehension, and the claim that they are boosting our SS couldn't be more inaccurate.

Illegal aliens are a drain on our taxes and are ruining entire industries in some towns.

Fruit Ninja
03-22-2006, 07:43 PM
And therein lies the problem folks. Lazy Americans have determined that there are certain jobs that are below them. God forbid you work for your money when you can pay a Mexican to do it for you.Hell, i am of Mexican heritage. I just done it befor4e, and i know thats something i never ever wanted to do again. Shit is not fun at all. You never know what hot is til ya work in that shit.

jspchief
03-22-2006, 07:44 PM
Hell, i am of Mexican heritage. I just done it befor4e, and i know thats something i never ever wanted to do again. Shit is not fun at all. You never know what hot is til ya work in that shit.I'm a roofer. I know hot that you didn't know existed on earth.

bogie
03-22-2006, 07:53 PM
I'm a roofer. I know hot that you didn't know existed on earth.

I have been a roofer, and I have worked in the hayfields of Missouri at 100 degree temperature and 99 degree humidity, if I have to feed my family, I would do it again. Problem is, when someone illegal takes these jobs at a rediculous rate, I can't feed my family.

Saulbadguy
03-22-2006, 08:30 PM
Annex Mexico.

Mr. Laz
03-22-2006, 08:41 PM
I have been a roofer, and I have worked in the hayfields of Missouri at 100 degree temperature and 99 degree humidity, if I have to feed my family, I would do it again. Problem is, when someone illegal takes these jobs at a rediculous rate, I can't feed my family.
i've done wood shingles and tar roofs


also detassled corn


yuck


if we start running out of people for those jobs we can allow more people in.

no reason for all the illegal crossing.

kcfanintitanhell
03-22-2006, 09:35 PM
During the summers between my sophomore and junior years and junior and senior years I walked beans from 6:00 AM till about 11:30. Went and had lunch and from 1:00 till 7:00 baled hay and put it up in barns.
I'm sure Mexicans would have had an easier time of it than I did, but I was sure glad I did it when we went into two-a-days in late August for the football season. Not that it did any good for my football career...as a 6'2' 155 pounder I always got the shit beat out of me, but I think I survived cuz of those days in the beanfields and hayfields.

KC Kings
03-22-2006, 09:41 PM
I work in the roofing industry, and go into a lot of detail about the negative impact of illegal immigrants in my field. The amount of wages that are being earned tax free are beyond your comprehension, and the claim that they are boosting our SS couldn't be more inaccurate.

Illegal aliens are a drain on our taxes and are ruining entire industries in some towns.

Negative impact? Let's look at this logically. An uneducated and often times malnourished man can come to a new country where he can't even speak the language, and can do your job as good as you can do it. Did you ever stop to think that if those are the qualifications for the work, maybe the immigrants are getting paid what the job is worth and everybody else is suffereing because they are no longer getting over paid?

I am all for a man trying to make a dollar, but the fact is that I know people that have union jobs working on the side of the road holding a "Slow!" sign, and make $20 an hour. I know anoher guy that is 28 and has a union job painting bridges making $25 an hour. Would I pick fruit all day long? Hell no, I am educated and half way intelligent and don't have to. For the rest of you not smart enough to do anything besides manual labor, I hope you can find a good paying union job digging fence post holes along the border. For me, I would rather pay an immigrant $8 an hour to paint bridges than a union guy $25 to do the same job. Just because you were born here doesn't mean that you deserve anything more than a Mexican.

As far as skimping on taxes, do you really think that the amount of taxes not paid by Mexicans getting paid under the table comes anywhere close to the amount of BS write off's construction guys get?

chief118
03-22-2006, 09:56 PM
Tell them whats up King!!!

HemiEd
03-22-2006, 10:04 PM
and the claim that they are boosting our SS couldn't be more inaccurate.


Not all jobs pay in CASH. Many are paid on regular payroll checks. The false SSN industry may be bigger than the roofing industry.

The information is well documented, significant tax refunds are not claimed either.

carlos3652
03-22-2006, 10:43 PM
OK,

I am a legal resident alien (Argentine Citizen), Green Card Holder for 20 years, I am not a US citizen, I cant vote, and I do not have the perks of being a US Citizen.

I do not agree with illegal aliens for various reasons but my main concern is that it makes becoming a legal alien that much harder. (trust me, I have a few friends waiting for over 3 years to get in)

Also, f*** Mexico, if they want to come live the american dream, let them do it legally. I think some mexicans are hard workers, but you also have the lazy ass mexicans... same as US.

Anyways, It will probably never be fixed... and someday we will regret all the holes in the Mexican and the Canadian borders...

jspchief
03-23-2006, 10:08 AM
As far as skimping on taxes, do you really think that the amount of taxes not paid by Mexicans getting paid under the table comes anywhere close to the amount of BS write off's construction guys get?Are you joking? Five guys getting paid 20k per year under the table makes for 100k in completely tax free wages. You want to tell me that the average "construction guy" gets 100k per year in BS write-offs?

You simply don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

ROYC75
03-23-2006, 10:16 AM
The American peoples values have changed. They would rather not work a certain job because of pride anymore. The hell with it, it's doesn't pay enough.

Years ago, you got in and worked, did your job, if you were unhappy, you didn't complain, you found a different job. Now a days, it's much easier to bitch and rebell on the amount of work or the type of work you do.

As for all the illegal aliens working in America, yes it kills the American economy. If the dead beat lazy ass american would take that job and use it as a way to further his/here career the money, taxes would allbe used here helping americans.

Close the borders somehow, ship'em back and get america back to work. This plus cut down on the overseas imports and Watch the economy grow again.

ROYC75
03-23-2006, 10:20 AM
Annex Mexico.

ROFL

It's the damn Texans fault,if they had defeated the Mexicans and took Mexico way back then we wouldn't be in this position.

Rausch
03-23-2006, 11:12 AM
Simple solution.

Have the military designate a 1/2 mile before the border a military testing range. Take all those nasty landmines from Afghanistan and Iraq and bury those ****ers every foot and a half along the border.

KC Kings
03-23-2006, 12:07 PM
Are you joking? Five guys getting paid 20k per year under the table makes for 100k in completely tax free wages. You want to tell me that the average "construction guy" gets 100k per year in BS write-offs?

You simply don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.
Then I guess I am in good company. Assuming that no illegals pay taxes and all construction guys are "average, than you are completely correct.

Most of the contruction companies I see are owned by Americans, and have a lot of immigrants working for them. I have 2 relatives that own their own construction companies, all of their employee's are paid via payroll checks minus tax deduction, and one deducted a brand new huge Dodge truck and a very large barn, and the other deducted two Ford F-350's. They drive the trucks to and from work, but as far as being legitimate "work" trucks, no way.


The point still remains, if somebody is willing to do your job for next to nothing, then your work is worth next to nothing. Construction isn't alone, we saw the same thing happen to textiles, manufacturing, and all of the IT outsourcing. You can either change trades, or sit there and complain as your trade value becomes worthless.

As far as working in the fields, if bucking hay paid $25 an hour like some other union grunt jobs, there would be a ton of guys out working the fields. We choose not to work those jobs because they have a small monetery value.

RickObie
03-23-2006, 12:15 PM
I would be very shocked with the evidence if that was true. However, even if that is true, who is going to do the jobs they do?

Illegal Immigration Facts and Figures

10.4 million illegal aliens reside in the United States.
(source: Pew Hispanic Center)

Every year, 500,000 additional illegal aliens enter the United States
(source: Pew Hispanic Center)

California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year (source: Federation for American Immigration Reform)

Illegal aliens cost the federal government $10 billion more annually than they pay in taxes.
(source: Center for Immigration Studies)

Taxpayers pay $750 million annually to house the 18,000 illegal aliens in California prisons.
(source: US Govt. Accounting Office)

unlurking
03-23-2006, 12:20 PM
Illegal Immigration Facts and Figures

10.4 million illegal aliens reside in the United States.
(source: Pew Hispanic Center)

Every year, 500,000 additional illegal aliens enter the United States
(source: Pew Hispanic Center)

California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year (source: Federation for American Immigration Reform)

Illegal aliens cost the federal government $10 billion more annually than they pay in taxes.
(source: Center for Immigration Studies)

Taxpayers pay $750 million annually to house the 18,000 illegal aliens in California prisons.
(source: US Govt. Accounting Office)
Awesome post. Thanks for shedding some light on this topic.

Iowanian
03-23-2006, 12:25 PM
If they hate the US so much.....stop effing coming here in droves and hordes.

Build the fence....and electrify it.

I do hope the planners have the foresight to dig a trench and have an underground obstacle as well.


while you're at it...learn some basic English before crossing the fence, and if you bring your kids and expect TAXPAYING Americans to fund their education, how about a little English for them, instead of forcing school districts to teach in Espanol.?

Mr. Laz
03-23-2006, 12:29 PM
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/4118/mapnorthamerica0lf.gif

FAX
03-23-2006, 12:33 PM
If they hate the US so much.....stop effing coming here in droves and hordes.

Build the fence....and electrify it.

I do hope the planners have the foresight to dig a trench and have an underground obstacle as well.

You raise a very intriguing point, Mr. Iowanian.

Our government could engage the US gaming community to design the wall/obstacle. They would make sure it had mazes, traps, ugly trolls that pop out of nowhere, and a boss that would smack the aliens like piss-ants if they made it that far.

The Mexicans can not overcome America's home-bred, geek power.

FAX

KC Kings
03-23-2006, 12:36 PM
Illegal Immigration Facts and Figures
California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year (source: Federation for American Immigration Reform)

Illegal aliens cost the federal government $10 billion more annually than they pay in taxes.
(source: Center for Immigration Studies)

Taxpayers pay $750 million annually to house the 18,000 illegal aliens in California prisons.
(source: US Govt. Accounting Office)

All of these "facts" depend on whether they are coming from a pro-immigration or an inti-immigration source. http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html This web page provides facts a figures that "prove" your post to be wrong, that immigrants pay into taxes an equal amount to what they take out of them.

I have not heard many people who know what they are talking about that will say that the immigrants have a negative impact on our economy. As our "basic" jobs are taken by others willing to do the work for less money, we are forced to find more advanced work. This has helped the advancement of the American workforce since the textile days. All data shows that as baby boomer retire there is going to be a work shortage in the US. Are you going to tell me that a couple hundred thousand roofers being forced to find a new line of work has a negative impact on the economy, when in return millions of American's will be able to get their houses roofed at half price? Whole chickens are on sale for $.49 a pound, grapes are $.99 a pound and you can still get a dozen eggs for $.69. The savings that we get from cheap immigrant labor, far outweighs the cost we ensue by having immigrants here.

Iowanian
03-23-2006, 12:36 PM
How about a boarderwar playstation game?

Turrets mounted every 100 yards, manned by Nintendo gurus sitting in the worlds biggest LAN game? Do it on the Canadian boarder too.

Welcome to American....Legally.

Where is a large percentage of MJ and Meth in the US coming from? Illegally via Mexico.

Rausch
03-23-2006, 12:51 PM
Whole chickens are on sale for $.49 a pound, grapes are $.99 a pound and you can still get a dozen eggs for $.69. The savings that we get from cheap immigrant labor, far outweighs the cost we ensue by having immigrants here.

Do they pay your medical bills after giving you TB?

And how they hell are illegal immigrants paying social security? It's under the table pay, they don't take taxes out.

Mr. Laz
03-23-2006, 12:51 PM
All of these "facts" depend on whether they are coming from a pro-immigration or an inti-immigration source. http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html
who cares which figures are correct? they really are an excuse ... not really part of the actually issue.

we need to gain control of our borders.


If we need more labor at some point we can admit as many as we chose with the proper paper work.


but the key is that we can control the flow


illegal = illegal ......... period

Skip Towne
03-23-2006, 12:52 PM
How about a boarderwar playstation game?

Turrets mounted every 100 yards, manned by Nintendo gurus sitting in the worlds biggest LAN game? Do it on the Canadian boarder too.

Welcome to American....Legally.

Where is a large percentage of MJ and Meth in the US coming from? Illegally via Mexico.
Yeah, and they steal bicycles too.

Cochise
03-23-2006, 12:55 PM
I'm opposed to a border fence.

I am however in favor of a 50 foot high concrete wall wired for electricity, with razor wire and the whole 9 yards, running the length of the border.

SLAG
03-23-2006, 12:55 PM
How about a boarderwar playstation game?

Turrets mounted every 100 yards, manned by Nintendo gurus sitting in the worlds biggest LAN game? Do it on the Canadian boarder too.

Welcome to American....Legally.

Where is a large percentage of MJ and Meth in the US coming from? Illegally via Mexico.

MJ YES

Meth No

meth Comes from MO

KC Kings
03-23-2006, 12:57 PM
Do they pay your medical bills after giving you TB?

And how they hell are illegal immigrants paying social security? It's under the table pay, they don't take taxes out.

Again, you are assuming that all illegal alliens are getting paid under the table. Do you seriously think that all of the restaraunts and stores that hire illegals are paying them under the table, or do you not realize that is very easy to obtain a false ss card and due to cost many companies don't verify their validity?

One particular food group in the KC area has to fire between 50-100 immigrant employee's every 6 months, because twice a year they have all of their employee's ssn validated. It is a pain in the butt because you will not find any white JoCo resident to work for $6 in a grocery store, so most of the time the managers will re-hire the same people under the different name on their new SS card.

KC Kings
03-23-2006, 01:02 PM
who cares which figures are correct? they really are an excuse ... not really part of the actually issue.

we need to gain control of our borders.


If we need more labor at some point we can admit as many as we chose with the proper paper work.


but the key is that we can control the flow


illegal = illegal ......... period

Agreed, but is building a fence the answer? How much in tax dollars is that fence going to cost, and how affective will it be? I am more concerned with other nationalities here illegally other than Mexican, but if we want to stop the illegals it would be cheaper and easier to impose large fines on any employers caught with illegals as employees or to get rid of the catch and release program.

As long as we have plenty jobs and a better life waiting for them on this side of the border, and fence isn't going to stop them from crossing anymore than the Rio Grande does.

SLAG
03-23-2006, 01:02 PM
In my Home Town of newton they were building a new Jail, and i tell you the Harvey County People were very smart.

They Intentionally Hired Illegal Imigrants Told them that they would get paid at the end of the contract, let them build the Jail 80-90% and then Called INS on themselfs to Deport the Illegal Aliens so they wouldnt have to get paid!

Rausch
03-23-2006, 01:04 PM
Again, you are assuming that all illegal alliens are getting paid under the table. Do you seriously think that all of the restaraunts and stores that hire illegals are paying them under the table, or do you not realize that is very easy to obtain a false ss card and due to cost many companies don't verify their validity?

And you think most illegals have fake ID?

One particular food group in the KC area has to fire between 50-100 immigrant employee's every 6 months, because twice a year they have all of their employee's ssn validated. It is a pain in the butt because you will not find any white JoCo resident to work for $6 in a grocery store, so most of the time the managers will re-hire the same people under the different name on their new SS card.

**** 'em.

The problem isn't that people don't want to work in a grocery store, the problem is the store doesn't want to raise the pay scale because they're cheap.

I'll probably start work monday pouring concrete. It'll start at $10 an hour. Not great, but for unskilled labor for some guy without any college it's enough to get by on for a while.

How long do you think my future employer will continue to start off pay at $10 when he can hire some illegal to do it for $6? Or $4?

He won't, and that WILL have an impact on American jobs.

Rausch
03-23-2006, 01:06 PM
In my Home Town of newton they were building a new Jail, and i tell you the Harvey County People were very smart.

They Intentionally Hired Illegal Imigrants Told them that they would get paid at the end of the contract, let them build the Jail 80-90% and then Called INS on themselfs to Deport the Illegal Aliens so they wouldnt have to get paid!

****ing sweet... :)

Mr. Laz
03-23-2006, 01:08 PM
Agreed, but is building a fence the answer? How much in tax dollars is that fence going to cost, and how affective will it be? I am more concerned with other nationalities here illegally other than Mexican, but if we want to stop the illegals it would be cheaper and easier to impose large fines on any employers caught with illegals as employees or to get rid of the catch and release program.

As long as we have plenty jobs and a better life waiting for them on this side of the border, and fence isn't going to stop them from crossing anymore than the Rio Grande does.

fines aren't going to stop people from entering the country for a job or with a dirty bomb.

all it will do is stop some of them from getting jobs ... which is main(only) good point of them being here in the first place.


i don't know if a fence is the best way ... but arguing about whether they should or shouldn't be here just diverts from the problem.


argue about the best way to keep them out ... not list excuses about whether it's so bad or not.


personally i think we should start charging Mexico for every illegal we find over in the U.S. Tell the Mexican government that if they want anymore assistance that they better start helping keep the illegal from crossing.

FAX
03-23-2006, 01:15 PM
I don't have the statistics before me at the moment, but I recall reading somewhere fairly recently that the average cost to the tax payer of a public school student is approximately $3500 per year whereas the average cost of a federal prisoner is in the neighborhood of $40,000 per year.

Last night I heard that 30% of our current prison population is comprised of illegal aliens.

Anybody know how much money we are spending just to keep these folks in our jails?

FAX

ROYC75
03-23-2006, 01:39 PM
Yeah, and they steal bicycles too.

And pickups......... right Phil ?

Wichita Lineman
03-23-2006, 01:41 PM
You know I've read some very prolific statements by HemiEd on football issues. Some I agree with some I don't but this time you really dropped the ball my friend. Do you have any idea what the "illegal" Mexican population has actually done to the economy? Are your children getting the same benefits that they get or are you for that matter? The answer is No. As to your point that they do the jobs no one else wants,just kick their asses out of here and see how fast those jobs are picked up by legal Americans. No this time your wrong, wrong, wrong.

Iowanian
03-23-2006, 01:42 PM
MJ YES

Meth No

meth Comes from MO

A majority of Meth in the US comes directly from Mexico.
Since Iowa enacted a law, where you have to show id to purchase psuedofed...a high percentage comes from there.

FAX
03-23-2006, 01:44 PM
This presents a bit of a problem, Mr. Iowanian, as our Nintendo Border Assault Teams require Meth and Weed to operate their hand controllers.

FAX

Iowanian
03-23-2006, 01:46 PM
Again, you are assuming that all illegal alliens are getting paid under the table. Do you seriously think that all of the restaraunts and stores that hire illegals are paying them under the table, or do you not realize that is very easy to obtain a false ss card and due to cost many companies don't verify their validity?

One particular food group in the KC area has to fire between 50-100 immigrant employee's every 6 months, because twice a year they have all of their employee's ssn validated. It is a pain in the butt because you will not find any white JoCo resident to work for $6 in a grocery store, so most of the time the managers will re-hire the same people under the different name on their new SS card.


ALOT of people hire Illegals, pay them cash and never report it. Cheaper labor, no Insurance, SS and tax costs.

If you believe a very high percentage of Illegals in this country are working for cash and and not paying taxes, I think you're woefully ignorant on the subject.

Iowanian
03-23-2006, 01:51 PM
This presents a bit of a problem, Mr. Iowanian, as our Nintendo Border Assault Teams require Meth and Weed to operate their hand controllers.

FAX

If you had played many video games, you'd know that after you exterminate the enemy character, they leave coins, medical refill and Power up Fruit in the place as they evaporate....its the players responsibility to pick them up, because they'll never get to fight the dragon on Level 3 without the super marioShroom.

Gonzo
03-23-2006, 02:04 PM
Hell, I say we let them across so we can supply the starving people of the world with our delicious Soylent Green. We can call it Southwestern style!!!

Valiant
03-23-2006, 02:07 PM
Shit I just want the damn illegals to try and become citizens... Most do not want to become a citizen and just ships the money back to Mexico.. I play soccer with the bastards twice weekly I know.. Oh, and man are they sore losers when it comes to losing to all-white teams... Damn league had to create a seperate bracket for them cause they all suck so bad at soccer... And I am not really a soccer player, just do it for exercise...

Oh, and lets get an official ****ing language...

Gonzo
03-23-2006, 02:11 PM
Shit I just want the damn illegals to try and become citizens... Most do not want to become a citizen and just ships the money back to Mexico.. I play soccer with the bastards twice weekly I know.. Oh, and man are they sore losers when it comes to losing to all-white teams... Damn league had to create a seperate bracket for them cause they all suck so bad at soccer... And I am not really a soccer player, just do it for exercise...

Oh, and lets get an official ****ing language...

Yeah but who else is going to make your tamale's, work in your rendering plant, clean the office after work and supply our cockroaches with a nice place to live???

RickObie
03-23-2006, 02:22 PM
[QUOTE=KC Kings]All of these "facts" depend on whether they are coming from a pro-immigration or an inti-immigration source. http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html This web page provides facts a figures that "prove" your post to be wrong, that immigrants pay into taxes an equal amount to what they take out of them.

Is there something in the word ILLEGAL that I am missing??

I don't care what figures people look at or what side of the argument there on, I find it extremely hard to believe that Illegals pay into taxes an equal amount.

But regardless there here illegally!!

HemiEd
03-23-2006, 02:26 PM
Illegal Immigration Facts and Figures

10.4 million illegal aliens reside in the United States.
(source: Pew Hispanic Center)

Every year, 500,000 additional illegal aliens enter the United States
(source: Pew Hispanic Center)

California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year (source: Federation for American Immigration Reform)

Illegal aliens cost the federal government $10 billion more annually than they pay in taxes.
(source: Center for Immigration Studies)

Taxpayers pay $750 million annually to house the 18,000 illegal aliens in California prisons.
(source: US Govt. Accounting Office)

http://www.immigrationforum.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=724

Facts on Immigration
Bolstering Social Security


April 6, 2005
On April 5, the New York Times ran an article on Social Security that illustrates just how much our economy has become dependent on the labor of undocumented immigrants.
The Social Security Administration’s (SSA) chief actuary estimates that three quarters of undocumented immigrants pay Social Security tax, an estimate that makes undocumented workers responsible for about 1.5% of total wages reported to the SSA.
Taxes paid by undocumented immigrants go into the SSA’s “suspense file,” when the Social Security number does not match SSA’s records. In 2002, the suspense file grew by $56 billion in reported earnings, with about $7 billion in Social Security tax and $1.5 billion in Medicare tax paid. This tax contribution represents about 10% of the current Social Security surplus—the difference between what is being collected in Social Security taxes and what is being paid out in benefits.
This year, Congress will attempt to tackle both Social Security’s long-term viability and reform of our immigration laws. The two are related. Without taxes paid by immigrants, our Social Security system would be in much worse shape than it is currently projected to be.
The main reason there are so many immigrants contributing to the suspense file, as opposed to the main SSA account, is that there are too few opportunities to work in the U.S. legally. It is time to stop denying the reality that immigrant workers are vital to our economy, and to change our immigration laws to provide more opportunity for these workers to work legally.
The entire New York Times article follows.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions


NEW YORK TIMES
By EDUARDO PORTER
April 5, 2005
[Front Page]
STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.
Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.
Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.
He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.
While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.
Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."
It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.
Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.
IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation.
Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.
The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.
In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.
In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.
Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.
"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.
Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. "Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file," said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Especially its growth over the 1990's, as more and more undocumented immigrants entered the work force."
Using data from the Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002.

RedNFeisty
03-23-2006, 02:31 PM
[QUOTE=KC Kings]All of these "facts" depend on whether they are coming from a pro-immigration or an inti-immigration source. http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html This web page provides facts a figures that "prove" your post to be wrong, that immigrants pay into taxes an equal amount to what they take out of them.

Is there something in the word ILLEGAL that I am missing??

I don't care what figures people look at or what side of the argument there on, I find it extremely hard to believe that Illegals pay into taxes an equal amount.

But regardless there here illegally!!

If illegal immigrants are paid with a pay check they are paying taxes. If the immigrants are paid under the table, they do not pay taxes. It works the same no matter the race, legal or illegal.

I don't think most Americans want illegal immigrants however they do not want to do the jobs that the illegal immigrants are doing so the immigrants are being tolerated.

RickObie
03-23-2006, 02:31 PM
But isn't this actually a reflection on how poor of a job our government is doing in the area of social security?

RickObie
03-23-2006, 02:35 PM
If illegal immigrants are paid with a pay check they are paying taxes. If the immigrants are paid under the table, they do not pay taxes. It works the same no matter the race, legal or illegal.

I don't think most Americans want illegal immigrants however they do not want to do the jobs that the illegal immigrants are doing so the immigrants are being tolerated.

I have lived in San Diego for 20 years now and worked a ton of jobs where I either worked with or served Illegals, I'm not bad mouthing or trying to start anything here, the majority that I knew were extremely hard working and trusting, the point though is there here Illegally.

RedNFeisty
03-23-2006, 02:45 PM
I have lived in San Diego for 20 years now and worked a ton of jobs where I either worked with or served Illegals, I'm not bad mouthing or trying to start anything here, the majority that I knew were extremely hard working and trusting, the point though is there here Illegally.

I am not picking on you, you just happen to be the first post that caught my eye.


I use to dislike the fact that there were so many illegal immigrants in America when I lived in Dallas, not knowing Spanish about drove me nuts. Now I see it as good for both sides, they do our crummy jobs, pay our outrageous taxes and get paid shit to do it. American's are reaping better benefits but the immigrants are still happy because it is better than back home.

RedNFeisty
03-23-2006, 02:46 PM
But isn't this actually a reflection on how poor of a job our government is doing in the area of social security?

Well, we know how shitty that has been for ages.

RickObie
03-23-2006, 02:55 PM
Well, we know how shitty that has been for ages.

:)

DJJasonp
03-23-2006, 03:20 PM
Yet another great reason to crack down on illegal immigration....

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

Lzen
03-23-2006, 03:33 PM
Seriously, how effective would a "security fence" really be? Sounds like a giant waste of time and money.

I agree to a certain extent. It would not have an effect on the tunnels. But there are a lot of Mexicans that just run across the land over the border.

Lzen
03-23-2006, 03:36 PM
We would be ****ed without them, they do the jobs we do not want to do. They pay into SS without any hope of every retrieving any of it, the good outweighs the bad IMO. Intelligence has no race barrier, I have met some truly amazing Mexicans.

How do they pay any taxes or SS if they are illegal? Don't you think employers pay illegals "under the table". They are leeching. I don't have a problem with immigrants. I do have a problem with illegals.

Lzen
03-23-2006, 03:41 PM
I'm a roofer. I know hot that you didn't know existed on earth.

No shit. That roof adds to the temp. I did mine last summer (middle of July). That sucked really bad. Gotta drink lots and lots of fluids to survive. I feel for ya, man. Not a job I would want to do for a living.

DJJasonp
03-23-2006, 03:49 PM
There's plenty more where this came from (percentage of violent crime criminals in jail being illegal aliens, etc.)....but here's a snipet....

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

Good luck finding any reference to such facts in official crime analysis. The LAPD and the L.A. city attorney recently requested an injunction against drug trafficking in Hollywood, targeting the 18th Street Gang and the “non–gang members” who sell drugs in Hollywood for the gang. Those non–gang members are virtually all illegal Mexicans, smuggled into the country by a ring organized by 18th Street bigs. The Mexicans pay off their transportation debts to the gang by selling drugs; many soon realize how lucrative that line of work is and stay in the business.

Cops and prosecutors universally know the immigration status of these non-gang “Hollywood dealers,” as the city attorney calls them, but the gang injunction is assiduously silent on the matter. And if a Hollywood officer were to arrest an illegal dealer (known on the street as a “border brother”) for his immigration status, or even notify the Immigration and Naturalization Service (since early 2003, absorbed into the new Department of Homeland Security), he would face severe discipline for violating Special Order 40, the city’s sanctuary policy.

Jayhawkerman2001
03-23-2006, 03:49 PM
personally i thikn they just need to shut that all down in general, because if they come illegaly they dont pay taxes, if they make it so any mexicans that want to come to america can legaly. I dont see any problem with mexicans here in america.

BigChiefFan
03-23-2006, 03:54 PM
Just like Dennis Miller said, it's okay to come into the country, just SIGN the ****ING GUEST BOOK on the way in. The illegal aliens are a burden to the the system.

HemiEd
03-23-2006, 03:56 PM
How do they pay any taxes or SS if they are illegal? Don't you think employers pay illegals "under the table". They are leeching. I don't have a problem with immigrants. I do have a problem with illegals.


If you read the long post 77 it explains the Billions of dollars in the unclaimed SS and Medicare.
They come into this country, pay some crook a grand or two for illegal or forged green card, same with SSN. They go get a regular check from thier job and do not ever collect the Social Security Benefits. I read in our local paper yesterday about the many millions of unclaimed State Tax refunds as well.

Lzen
03-23-2006, 04:02 PM
PHOENIX — This is part two of a five-part series looking at how illegal immigration affects U.S. border security, the criminal, health care and education systems, as well as the economy. Watch the series this week on FOX News Channel.

Many police officials in states along the U.S.-Mexican border say they are fed up with the number of illegal aliens populating American prisons, many of them incarcerated for violent crimes such as murder, rape and robbery.

Almost one in six inmates in Arizona, for example, is a Mexican citizen.

"It is a phenomenon that law enforcement recognizes as a major problem," said one undercover detective, who specializes in street gangs and goes by the name "Paco."

"We have to put drug users and violators in there, babysit them, and now we have to babysit illegal aliens," said Maricopa County (search), Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio (search), whose jails are 4,500 inmates over capacity.

Most Mexicans cross the border looking for work, but competition is fierce for jobs requiring uneducated, unskilled labor. Many illegal immigrants find themselves far from realizing their dreams.

"We come over here to find a better life," said inmate Tony Perez, a convicted drug dealer. "Not all of us are here to sell drugs or to do bad things, despite a few that do. But then again, doesn't everybody else from every other country?"

(Arpaio's Phoenix jails (search) house 1,200 criminal aliens, including Perez, who by law should have been deported. But because of federal bureaucracy and an overburdened system, only the most dangerous felons are actually sent home.

Even when deportation is ordered, about 60 percent of orders are ignored.

Christian Higuera, who is serving time for assault, has fathered an illegitimate child, born in Arizona. He said he hopes he will be allowed to stay with his child, an American citizen, once he gets out of jail.

The borders are so porous that many deported criminals simply come back into the United States, often to commit more crimes.

"If somebody has a proclivity for criminal activity already established, they will continue in that vein," said Paco.

In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants and 60 percent of outstanding felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

American taxpayers are paying for the crimes of the 8,000 convicted aliens not yet caught and the incarceration costs of those who have been.

That adds up to more than $1 billion a year — in just the states that border Mexico.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150638,00.html

harpes
03-23-2006, 04:06 PM
Hasnt anyone ever heard of the Berlin Wall or The Great Wall of China? Not too many folks tried to sneak across those borders.

el borracho
03-23-2006, 04:10 PM
Hasnt anyone ever heard of the Berlin Wall or The Great Wall of China? Not too many folks tried to sneak across those borders.
Well... nobody wanted in...

Garcia Bronco
03-23-2006, 04:34 PM
We would be ****ed without them, they do the jobs we do not want to do. They pay into SS without any hope of every retrieving any of it, the good outweighs the bad IMO. Intelligence has no race barrier, I have met some truly amazing Mexicans.

That's weak shit....become legal...that's all they have to do.

BigChiefFan
03-23-2006, 04:42 PM
How exactly is SPONGING off the system beneficial for the U.S.?

Valiant
03-23-2006, 04:49 PM
[QUOTE=KC Kings]All of these "facts" depend on whether they are coming from a pro-immigration or an inti-immigration source. http://www.rapidimmigration.com/usa/1_eng_immigration_facts.html This web page provides facts a figures that "prove" your post to be wrong, that immigrants pay into taxes an equal amount to what they take out of them.

Is there something in the word ILLEGAL that I am missing??

I don't care what figures people look at or what side of the argument there on, I find it extremely hard to believe that Illegals pay into taxes an equal amount.

But regardless there here illegally!!


That and add the fact of medical expenses they get free here in the US that they cannot afford to pay back...

Valiant
03-23-2006, 04:52 PM
How do they pay any taxes or SS if they are illegal? Don't you think employers pay illegals "under the table". They are leeching. I don't have a problem with immigrants. I do have a problem with illegals.


Thats how I think most people feel... The most of the illegals I have met do not want to become citizens...

Valiant
03-23-2006, 04:57 PM
If you read the long post 77 it explains the Billions of dollars in the unclaimed SS and Medicare.
They come into this country, pay some crook a grand or two for illegal or forged green card, same with SSN. They go get a regular check from thier job and do not ever collect the Social Security Benefits. I read in our local paper yesterday about the many millions of unclaimed State Tax refunds as well.


They may leave some money in SS unclaimed by that is destroyed by the medical expenses they use that the state has to pay for for since they cannot... Hell KC last year did a story on one mexican that is in a coma now after a wreck and so far has cost the state over 3million dollars in surgeries and care.. They tried to ship him back to his country and were sued, because they are required to issue care...

DJJasonp
03-23-2006, 05:32 PM
Not to mention what the illegal crisis is doing to the school system in California....

Because schools receive funding based upon a graded-scale, schools are teaching what amounts to remedial classes so more kids pass....which means the schools dont lose funding (and teachers dont lose jobs).

Huge problems in drop-out/graduation rates are effected by illegals as well because the illegals in school are working at night or afternoon....then, when the work season is over, they drop-out and go back to Mexico to their family (with whatever money they made....obviously, this shows how easy it is to go back and forth across the border illegally).

Bottom line is....private schools are flourishing and advanced/honors classes have wait-lists because families who cant afford private school, but yet, want a good education for their kids, have a hard time getting their kids into classes where they'll actually learn something (and have an opportunity for college...scholarship, etc.).

Sad days in California....

Hydrae
03-23-2006, 06:00 PM
Sounds to me like the problem is not with the people themselves (and the jobs they take willingly) but with the money we hand out. To me the problem here is with all the socialized crap we have more than anything else. Get rid of the entitlement programs in general and see where we stand both monetarily as a country and with the number of immigrants coming across the border.

HemiEd
03-23-2006, 06:19 PM
Sounds to me like the problem is not with the people themselves (and the jobs they take willingly) but with the money we hand out. To me the problem here is with all the socialized crap we have more than anything else. Get rid of the entitlement programs in general and see where we stand both monetarily as a country and with the number of immigrants coming across the border.

Agreed, and it is not just Mexicans taking advantage of those.

Halfcan
03-23-2006, 07:14 PM
Mexicans don't like Gringo Americano's. That is a shock.

I wonder how the fence will effect the price of "Mota".

Logical
05-20-2006, 10:13 PM
Just proving a point

CHIEF4EVER
05-20-2006, 11:13 PM
The only point I will make is this: If you think that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do, WAKE THE EFF UP. Tyson and Cargill are prime examples of that BS line of reasoning. They both hire immense numbers of illegals in spite of having a worker base willing to do production work for low wages living there already. But Tyson and Cargill know that they can get away with paying illegals a tiny wage, work them like slaves, pay no employer payroll taxes, and if they get caught they pay the fine and add it to the cost of doing business. Which means you and I pay the fine in increased pricing. Sealing the border is just the beginning of what we have to do to effect a constructive change. We also have to start giving employers draconian penalties (mandantory jail time) for hiring illegals. Finally, if you want to make a difference you can. Go to NumbersUSA.com and see how your Senators and Representatives track record is on illegal immigration. Email them, call them and let them know that November is coming and if they value THEIR jobs - they better not vote AGAINST a border fortification or FOR Guest worker/Amnesty.