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View Full Version : Hypothetical: WWII with a neutral Soviet Union.


Rain Man
03-23-2006, 05:32 PM
Let's assume that the Soviet Union was headed by Gandhi, and that Hitler had actually read a book about Napoleon. Bottom line: that front is stable.

How would WWII have progressed? Start your timeline in December of 1940 and trace it out.

FAX
03-23-2006, 05:36 PM
Well let's see ...

December 18, 1940, 07:33 - Had breakfast.

... to be continued.

FAX

FAX
03-23-2006, 05:38 PM
December 18, 1940, 07:50 - Reviewed cool battle plan.

... to be continued.

FAX

Halfcan
03-23-2006, 05:39 PM
What was the question again?

FAX
03-23-2006, 05:41 PM
December 18, 1940, 08:01 - Visited latrine. Had to wait in line. That was damned disappointing.

... to be continued.

FAX

carlos3652
03-23-2006, 05:42 PM
December 1945 - Germany is in control of most of Europe
December 1950 - Europe is re-named to whatever Hitler wants
Decemebr 1960 - All Jews in Europe Exterminated...

FAX
03-23-2006, 05:50 PM
December 18, 1940, 08:20 - Called Montgomery. Line was busy.

... to be continued.

FAX

Adept Havelock
03-23-2006, 05:59 PM
England would likely have sued for peace, starved into submission by U-Boats. We would have either ended up with a 20 year conventional war, or ended up with a cold war, except the ICBM's in Siberia would have been built at the Mittlewerk.

FAX
03-23-2006, 06:26 PM
December 18, 1940, 08:26 - Lit cigar. Finally got Montomery on the horn. Gave him the jazz for that whole Sidi Barrani thing.

... to be continued.

FAX

Amnorix
03-23-2006, 08:13 PM
Yeah, err, US ends World War II in its favor by A Bombing Berlin and whatever other cities it needs to...

Germans weren't even trying to get the bomb. That alone spells the difference.

Chan93lx50
03-23-2006, 08:57 PM
I always wondered what would have happened after we defeated Germany we teamed up with them and headed toward Moscow.

Amnorix
03-23-2006, 10:00 PM
I always wondered what would have happened after we defeated Germany we teamed up with them and headed toward Moscow.


Germany really did have that much of a functioning army at that point, really. Definitely don't confuse the German Army of 1940-42 with what was left in '45, which was a helluva lot of tired and beaten kids, old men and foreigners (1/8th of the Wehrmacht was non-German by the end of the war).

That said, if the Brits, US and whatever was left of the Germans went whole hog at Russia, it would've been a helluva fight. The Russians were producing quite a few T-34s, which were better tanks than anything we had. Our air assets would've been better -- particularly in heavy bombers, of which the Russkies had few.

But again, it all comes back to the Atom Bomb. If we want to use it, we win, end of debate.

Amnorix
03-23-2006, 10:02 PM
England would likely have sued for peace, starved into submission by U-Boats. We would have either ended up with a 20 year conventional war, or ended up with a cold war, except the ICBM's in Siberia would have been built at the Mittlewerk.

Keep in mind that BEFORE the Germans invade Russia, the Battle of Britain is already won -- by Britain.

The Battle of the Atlantic has yet to be won, of course, but it's not like the attack on Russia had any significant impact on German U-Boat operations. The breaking of the Enigma Code was likely still going to happen, and if you assume Pearl Harbor still happens, then I'm not sure how much actually changes wrt England.

Basically, Germany invaded Russia in part because its navy/army had decided that an invasion of England wasn't feasible. Operation Sea Lion required control of a certain zone for ships, plus control over the skies in that same area. Neither was achieved.

Lancetastic
03-23-2006, 10:06 PM
There is a movie that addresses a similar question in case you didn't know called Fatherland.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109779/

Donger
03-24-2006, 12:02 PM
England would likely have sued for peace, starved into submission by U-Boats.

Possibly. However, don't forget that the Brits (with some help) won the Battle of Britain BEFORE Hitler turned his attention to the Soviets. Some historians argue that Hitler was never really fully committed to an invasion of England anyway, nor did he really have the amphibious means to do so. Moot point, really, since air supremacy would have been required and was never achieved.

The Battle of Britain ranks up there with Midway as a turning point of WWII.

I would argue that Hitler would have invaded a neutral Soviet Union anyway.

Donger
03-24-2006, 12:05 PM
Keep in mind that BEFORE the Germans invade Russia, the Battle of Britain is already won -- by Britain.

The Battle of the Atlantic has yet to be won, of course, but it's not like the attack on Russia had any significant impact on German U-Boat operations. The breaking of the Enigma Code was likely still going to happen, and if you assume Pearl Harbor still happens, then I'm not sure how much actually changes wrt England.

Basically, Germany invaded Russia in part because its navy/army had decided that an invasion of England wasn't feasible. Operation Sea Lion required control of a certain zone for ships, plus control over the skies in that same area. Neither was achieved.

Heh. History geek.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 12:17 PM
Heh. History geek.

:LOL: Great minds and all that...

And definitely "takes one to know one"

Donger
03-24-2006, 12:26 PM
:LOL: Great minds and all that...

And definitely "takes one to know one"

I love how the course of human history can (and is) changed by such small events.

You probably know this, but the German plan for destroying the RAF was succeeding. They were attacking the RAF airfields almost exclusively until one night, a lost HE-111 (IIRC) mistakenly dropped its bombs on London. Churchill, in retaliation, ordered Bomber Command to bomb Berlin. Furious, Hitler ordered the bombings of British cities, thereby giving the RAF a needed breather.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 12:43 PM
I love how the course of human history can (and is) changed by such small events.

You probably know this, but the German plan for destroying the RAF was succeeding. They were attacking the RAF airfields almost exclusively until one night, a lost HE-111 (IIRC) mistakenly dropped its bombs on London. Churchill, in retaliation, ordered Bomber Command to bomb Berlin. Furious, Hitler ordered the bombings of British cities, thereby giving the RAF a needed breather.


Yes, knew it, but still quite amazing. Especially since both England and Germany had been avoiding civilian targets since then.

Other such small events include the general let-down in German defenses all along the coast on D-Day due to bad weather and other matters, which very much helped the Allied cause in the landing. I seem to remember that a VERY large number of senior German officers were away from their posts during that weekend attending a large training exercise or seminar or somesuch...

Donger
03-24-2006, 01:02 PM
Yes, knew it, but still quite amazing. Especially since both England and Germany had been avoiding civilian targets since then.

Other such small events include the general let-down in German defenses all along the coast on D-Day due to bad weather and other matters, which very much helped the Allied cause in the landing. I seem to remember that a VERY large number of senior German officers were away from their posts during that weekend attending a large training exercise or seminar or somesuch...

That does ring a bell. And I think that Rommel was in Berlin on leave to see his family (birthday party?) because no invasion could take place in such weather.

Okay, now stop it; you will NOT release the inner history geek within me!

StcChief
03-24-2006, 01:06 PM
Germany really did have that much of a functioning army at that point, really. Definitely don't confuse the German Army of 1940-42 with what was left in '45, which was a helluva lot of tired and beaten kids, old men and foreigners (1/8th of the Wehrmacht was non-German by the end of the war).

That said, if the Brits, US and whatever was left of the Germans went whole hog at Russia, it would've been a helluva fight. The Russians were producing quite a few T-34s, which were better tanks than anything we had. Our air assets would've been better -- particularly in heavy bombers, of which the Russkies had few.

But again, it all comes back to the Atom Bomb. If we want to use it, we win, end of debate.

With the Atom Bomb in our pocket let Patton head to Moscow.

Sqash communism in Russia. or bomb the shit out of 'em if Stalin doesn't agree.

No cold war build up.

Still blame FDR Truman as communist sympathizers. to not finish the job when we were there with superior advantage.

History repeated after 91 golf war when we weren't allowed to take out Saddam. with all or forces in Kuwait.
:banghead:

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 01:24 PM
That does ring a bell. And I think that Rommel was in Berlin on leave to see his family (birthday party?) because no invasion could take place in such weather.

Okay, now stop it; you will NOT release the inner history geek within me!

Oh yes. Rommel was definitely away. He was heading to Berlin ostensibly for his birthday, but really to bring something to Hitler's attention. It may have been arguing about the adequate disposition of forces along the front. Something like that.

He had to turn right around, without having seen the Big A.

I love how Rommel's commander, von Rundstedt, called Hitler "the Bohemian corporal" in all private conversation, and HITLER KNEW IT. But he didn't mind, really. He considered von Rundstedt a brilliant, idiosynchratic, Prussian military genius, so he just put up with it. Said something like "You know all is well when the old man is complaining".

:D


"Release your inner history geek! Let the geekness flow!!!"

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 01:26 PM
With the Atom Bomb in our pocket let Patton head to Moscow.

Sqash communism in Russia. or bomb the shit out of 'em if Stalin doesn't agree.

No cold war build up.

Still blame FDR Truman as communist sympathizers. to not finish the job when we were there with superior advantage.

History repeated after 91 golf war when we weren't allowed to take out Saddam. with all or forces in Kuwait.
:banghead:


I find your command of military tactics and assessment of political realities within the context of their times . . . lacking.

Donger
03-24-2006, 01:28 PM
Oh yes. Rommel was definitely away. He was heading to Berlin ostensibly for his birthday, but really to bring something to Hitler's attention. It may have been arguing about the adequate disposition of forces along the front. Something like that.

He had to turn right around, without having seen the Big A.

I love how Rommel's commander, von Rundstedt, called Hitler "the Bohemian corporal" in all private conversation, and HITLER KNEW IT. But he didn't mind, really. He considered von Rundstedt a brilliant, idiosynchratic, Prussian military genius, so he just put up with it. Said something like "You know all is well when the old man is complaining".

:D


"Release your inner history geek! Let the geekness flow!!!"

I often wonder if Overlord would have been less successful if Rommel had been allowed to keep all of the panzers near the coast instead of having to follow von Rundstedt's plan. Thankfully, we'll never know.

:banghead: Damnit!

Cochise
03-24-2006, 01:31 PM
Berlin glowing in the dark sounds like a likely outcome

Ebolapox
03-24-2006, 01:34 PM
With the Atom Bomb in our pocket let Patton head to Moscow.



I just read an interesting book of 'what if's' of US history... one of the more intriguing ones was 'what if' eisenhower hadn't stopped his drive towards berlin at the elbe river (I think it was the elbe)--long story short, the germans were concentrated on stopping the red army on the east side of berlin/the battle front, and almost totally willing to concede to the americans/brittish due to how the german troops had been drilled that death was a better fate than capture by the soviets (they'd been told, rightly so, that there was no mercy on the behalf of the red communists)... stalin wanted to be the first to berlin for one reason alone, to get ahold of uranium that was contained at a lab in the future US zone of berlin (remember, they obviously split up the city) in order to continue development of their atomic program--if eisenhower doesn't allow the soviets to capture berlin instead of our (much easier) route to take berlin, the soviets likely would have taken MUCH LONGER to acquire uranium to further their atomic program... thus, possibly heading off the true teeth of the soviet union in the cold war

-EB-

Donger
03-24-2006, 01:36 PM
Berlin glowing in the dark sounds like a likely outcome

Another side note here, but many people don't realize that the primary target of our atomic weapons was always Germany, not Japan. Of course, since it wasn't ready by the time of the German surrender, it wasn't brought to bear.

I've always wondered if they really would have dropped it on Germany.

Cochise
03-24-2006, 01:39 PM
Another side note here, but many people don't realize that the primary target of our atomic weapons was always Germany, not Japan. Of course, since it wasn't ready by the time of the German surrender, it wasn't brought to bear.

I've always wondered if they really would have dropped it on Germany.

I thought they didn't want to use it on Germany in case something was wrong with it, and it didn't explode or something. They didn't want the Germans stealing the technology.

Donger
03-24-2006, 01:47 PM
I thought they didn't want to use it on Germany in case something was wrong with it, and it didn't explode or something. They didn't want the Germans stealing the technology.

That was a concern regardless of the target. One of the physicists working on the Manhattan Project actually suggested that they should poision Germany's water supply with Strontium-90. I think it was Fermi.

Ebolapox
03-24-2006, 01:48 PM
I thought they didn't want to use it on Germany in case something was wrong with it, and it didn't explode or something. They didn't want the Germans stealing the technology.

remember, the germans were already really close to the technology as it is... we might not have ever gotten the A-bomb had we not used their scientists knowledge via the manhattan project

-EB-

StcChief
03-24-2006, 01:48 PM
I just read an interesting book of 'what if's' of US history... one of the more intriguing ones was 'what if' eisenhower hadn't stopped his drive towards berlin at the elbe river (I think it was the elbe)--long story short, the germans were concentrated on stopping the red army on the east side of berlin/the battle front, and almost totally willing to concede to the americans/brittish due to how the german troops had been drilled that death was a better fate than capture by the soviets (they'd been told, rightly so, that there was no mercy on the behalf of the red communists)... stalin wanted to be the first to berlin for one reason alone, to get ahold of uranium that was contained at a lab in the future US zone of berlin (remember, they obviously split up the city) in order to continue development of their atomic program--if eisenhower doesn't allow the soviets to capture berlin instead of our (much easier) route to take berlin, the soviets likely would have taken MUCH LONGER to acquire uranium to further their atomic program... thus, possibly heading off the true teeth of the soviet union in the cold war

-EB-

I didn't realize the uranium factor.....

We are being hypothetical, and with A bomb made and in hand....

Politics between Stalin, FDR, Churchill aside the last 60 years would have been quite different, had we been allowed to stop communism
before it could reach power with Nuclear weapons.

Donger
03-24-2006, 01:52 PM
I just read an interesting book of 'what if's' of US history... one of the more intriguing ones was 'what if' eisenhower hadn't stopped his drive towards berlin at the elbe river (I think it was the elbe)--long story short, the germans were concentrated on stopping the red army on the east side of berlin/the battle front, and almost totally willing to concede to the americans/brittish due to how the german troops had been drilled that death was a better fate than capture by the soviets (they'd been told, rightly so, that there was no mercy on the behalf of the red communists)... stalin wanted to be the first to berlin for one reason alone, to get ahold of uranium that was contained at a lab in the future US zone of berlin (remember, they obviously split up the city) in order to continue development of their atomic program--if eisenhower doesn't allow the soviets to capture berlin instead of our (much easier) route to take berlin, the soviets likely would have taken MUCH LONGER to acquire uranium to further their atomic program... thus, possibly heading off the true teeth of the soviet union in the cold war

-EB-

It's true that the Soviet Union does not, and did not, contain very much high grade uranium ore. And, they did indeed get a few hundred tons from Germany (and Czechoslovakia).

Rausch
03-24-2006, 01:52 PM
Hmmm....

Well, the Russians never get ahold of the V2 rocket technology, never jump ahead in the space race. Odds are there never is a space race.

No Russian Mig jets.

The only reason Russia was able to compete in the cold war was due to technology they grabbed from the Krauts.

I wonder if we still would have pushed to develop our science and tech like we did without a cold war. Probably not...

Donger
03-24-2006, 01:55 PM
Hmmm....

Well, the Russians never get ahold of the V2 rocket technology, never jump ahead in the space race. Odds are there never is a space race.

No Russian Mig jets.

The only reason Russia was able to compete in the cold war was due to technology they grabbed from the Krauts.

I wonder if we still would have pushed to develop our science and tech like we did without a cold war. Probably not...

Well, let's be honest. The west also benefitted tremendously from captured German technology and people. Heck, who basically ran NASA during Redstone through Apollo? Wernher von Braun.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:02 PM
remember, the germans were already really close to the technology as it is... we might not have ever gotten the A-bomb had we not used their scientists knowledge via the manhattan project

-EB-

You're confusing two things.

1. German scientists (Einstein, etc.) were involved, directly or indirectly with the Manhattan Project, that is true.

2. Germany itself had GIVEN UP developing an Atomic Bomb. They werent' doing it. They weren't working on it. It was NOT going to happen in 1946, or '47, or even '48. They had simply stopped all work along these lines long ago.

Rausch
03-24-2006, 02:02 PM
Well, let's be honest. The west also benefitted tremendously from captured German technology and people. Heck, who basically ran NASA during Redstone through Apollo? Wernher von Braun.

Indeed.

That's why there was a race to Berlin. We divided it all up in more than one way.

Imagine the US with all of Germany and it's resources...

Also, there would be no NATO, no USSR as permanent member of the UN council with Veto power...

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:07 PM
I often wonder if Overlord would have been less successful if Rommel had been allowed to keep all of the panzers near the coast instead of having to follow von Rundstedt's plan. Thankfully, we'll never know.

"less successful" -- hell yes. Omaha Beach could hardly have been worse, but the other beaches were pretty much a cakewalk. They all could've been a hellacious challenge if the Germans had enough forces on hand. Hell, there was one Panzer division -- recently rotated from the Russian front -- very close by that couldn't even move until they got orders from higher up. Even they would have had a helluva impact, being a battle hardened panzer division.

:banghead: Damnit!



:fire: :LOL: :fire: :LOL: :fire: :LOL:

Chiefs Express
03-24-2006, 02:07 PM
Yeah, err, US ends World War II in its favor by A Bombing Berlin and whatever other cities it needs to...

Germans weren't even trying to get the bomb. That alone spells the difference.

I think that part of history has eluded you.

You need to get the DVD of "Untold Stories of WWII - Three Secrets that Changed the War". It is available through National Geographic (www.nationalgeographic.com (http://www.nationalgeographic.com)).

Germany was developing "heavy water" in the 40's. You need to rethink your comment.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:08 PM
It's true that the Soviet Union does not, and did not, contain very much high grade uranium ore. And, they did indeed get a few hundred tons from Germany (and Czechoslovakia).

Didn't know that. Interesting.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:09 PM
Well, let's be honest. The west also benefitted tremendously from captured German technology and people. Heck, who basically ran NASA during Redstone through Apollo? Wernher von Braun.


Precisely. We got the best German scientists, while the Russians got more overall, but a lower level of competence/quality. von Braun was clearly the pick of the litter...

P.S. -- I thought it was just "Werner" (no "h").

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:10 PM
Indeed.

That's why there was a race to Berlin. We divided it all up in more than one way.

Imagine the US with all of Germany and it's resources...

Also, there would be no NATO, no USSR as permanent member of the UN council with Veto power...

If only you were right. The British (Churchill/Monty) were hot to go to Berlin and race the Russkies there. Eisenhower stopped us. Wouldn't even let the race happen.

Very unlikely we could have taken all of Germany first anyway, given timeframes, etc. Maybe we could've beaten them to Berlin. Haven't seen much analysis on that. But we didn't even try.

Eisenhower showed himself to be politically naive about post-war Europe in the worst way in this matter.

Donger
03-24-2006, 02:19 PM
I think that part of history has eluded you.

You need to get the DVD of "Untold Stories of WWII - Three Secrets that Changed the War". It is available through National Geographic (www.nationalgeographic.com (http://www.nationalgeographic.com)).

Germany was developing "heavy water" in the 40's. You need to rethink your comment.

I'm not arguing that the NAZIs weren't interested in developing atomic weapons; they were. But not a scale ANYWHERE near the Manhattan Project, and that's what it takes (and still does). I give credit to those Norwegians, though.

The general consensus, at least it used to be, was that the "NAZI" scientists who worked on their program intentionally delayed and overestimated how long it would take them to develop an atomic weapon. They didn't WANT to build it. Many of them were Jews, BTW.

StcChief
03-24-2006, 02:20 PM
We are still back to NOT stopping the Russians,

Post war division of Europe with Russia there would NOT have been any to divide.

Eisenhower really screwed up too. Forgot about him.

Patton was right. take them now. They wouldn't let him.

Donger
03-24-2006, 02:21 PM
P.S. -- I thought it was just "Werner" (no "h").

No, I believe that's correct.

Otter
03-24-2006, 02:29 PM
Can’t we have just one “what if Germany won the war” discussions without Donger and Amnorix coming in and screwing everything up?

I think Hitler would have created a race of super midgets with ox-like strength and possibly the ability to shoot laser beams out their eyeballs to occupy the United States. He would commanded them through a sock puppet proxy to remedy his conscience which grew louder and louder as he aged.

Thoughts?

Donger
03-24-2006, 02:34 PM
Can’t we have just one “what if Germany won the war” discussions without Donger and Amnorix coming in and screwing everything up?

I think Hitler would have created a race of super midgets with ox-like strength and possibly the ability to shoot laser beams out their eyeballs to occupy the United States. He would commanded them through a sock puppet proxy to remedy his conscience which grew louder and louder as he aged.

Thoughts?

Nonsense. He only had one nut. No way a uni-nutter would have had the balls to create super midgets.

Chiefs Express
03-24-2006, 02:34 PM
I'm not arguing that the NAZIs weren't interested in developing atomic weapons; they were. But not a scale ANYWHERE near the Manhattan Project, and that's what it takes (and still does). I give credit to those Norwegians, though.

The general consensus, at least it used to be, was that the "NAZI" scientists who worked on their program intentionally delayed and overestimated how long it would take them to develop an atomic weapon. They didn't WANT to build it. Many of them were Jews, BTW.

You need to get the DVD, they were much closer to success than we might have ever believed. Most of the Nazi Scientists were Jews from what I read.

Rausch
03-24-2006, 02:38 PM
Nonsense. He only had one nut. No way a uni-nutter would have had the balls to create super midgets.

With all the Meth the Nazis had laying around I bet the thought crossed his mind...

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:38 PM
No, I believe that's correct.


Quite so. I was too lazy to Google it, but you're definitely right.

Donger
03-24-2006, 02:39 PM
You need to get the DVD, they were much closer to success than we might have ever believed. Most of the Nazi Scientists were Jews from what I read.

What does this DVD present that leads you to this conclusion?

Rausch
03-24-2006, 02:39 PM
You need to get the DVD, they were much closer to success than we might have ever believed. Most of the Nazi Scientists were Jews from what I read.

The NAZI program was the driving force for Albert E. working for us...

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:43 PM
I'm not arguing that the NAZIs weren't interested in developing atomic weapons; they were. But not a scale ANYWHERE near the Manhattan Project, and that's what it takes (and still does). I give credit to those Norwegians, though.

The general consensus, at least it used to be, was that the "NAZI" scientists who worked on their program intentionally delayed and overestimated how long it would take them to develop an atomic weapon. They didn't WANT to build it. Many of them were Jews, BTW.

Based on what I have read, and especially on the various memoirs of Reichminister of Armaments Speer, the atomic program was essentially defunct by mid-war. It was getting absolutely nowhere near the priority it would need, even from higher levels, to bring it to fruition. They got as far as heavy water experiments, and then for all intents and purposes did nothing all that productive after that.

My sense from this and some other items i have read is that the German nuclear weapon development project was to the Manhattan project as a 6 story office building is to the Empire State Building.

German research efforts were simply focused in other directions.

Chiefs Express
03-24-2006, 02:43 PM
What does this DVD present that leads you to this conclusion?

Let me stick it in the player and review it again. I don't want to unintentionally mislead you. Be back later (if this is still a hot topic, if not I'll PM you with it.)

Donger
03-24-2006, 02:45 PM
Based on what I have read, and especially on the various memoirs of Reichminister of Armaments Speer, the atomic program was essentially defunct by mid-war. It was getting absolutely nowhere near the priority it would need, even from higher levels, to bring it to fruition. They got as far as heavy water experiments, and then for all intents and purposes did nothing all that productive after that.

My sense from this and some other items i have read is that the German nuclear weapon development project was to the Manhattan project as a 6 story office building is to the Empire State Building.

German research efforts were simply focused in other directions.

That's my understanding as well. However, maybe some new information has come to light since my studies.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:47 PM
The NAZI program was the driving force for Albert E. working for us...


No. The *worry* that the Germans WERE doing this was the driving force for Einstein, and others, who certainly understood that the THEORY of a incredibly powerful bomb was generally known by top physicists around the world, including Germany, is what drove him and others to recommend that the US develop an atomic weapon.

Einstein, it should be noted, was not "working for us" in the manner you implly. He was a Princeton professor starting in the early-30s, after he had refused to return to Nazi Germany in the wake of their election of Hitler as Reich Chancellor.

He was not, to my knowledge, DIRECTLY involved in the Manhattan Project in any way -- except to get it off the ground by convincing FDR of its importance.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 02:48 PM
That's my understanding as well. However, maybe some new information has come to light since my studies.


I rather doubt it frankly. I believe the "book has been written" with regard to the Nazi nuclear development program, or non-program, so to speak.

FishingRod
03-24-2006, 02:50 PM
Hmmm....

Well, the Russians never get ahold of the V2 rocket technology, never jump ahead in the space race. Odds are there never is a space race.

No Russian Mig jets.

The only reason Russia was able to compete in the cold war was due to technology they grabbed from the Krauts.

I wonder if we still would have pushed to develop our science and tech like we did without a cold war. Probably not...
Hey its me an old timer Lightning Rod but I can't access my home e-mail from work so I don't remember what my password is.


In an odd twist of fate... the biggest help to the Russians was from the British. The Brits and Russians (still allies at the time) were meeting about a technology exchange between "friends". The Russians got a tour of the jet engine factory and then won from the Brits the plans to their rolls Royce jet engine over a drunken game of billiards. This was the basis for the engine for the Mig-15 which became a large pain in the neck in Korea.

Donger
03-24-2006, 02:52 PM
He was not, to my knowledge, DIRECTLY involved in the Manhattan Project in any way -- except to get it off the ground by convincing FDR of its importance.

Correct. Einstein was convinced by Leo Szilard and Wigmaun (sp?) to write the letter. Interestingly, his first letter was to the King of Belgium (I think) asking him to not let uranium in his country fall into NAZI hands. After that, he was pushed to write directly to FDR asking that a program be started.

Einstein also later regretted writing that letter.

Donger
03-24-2006, 02:54 PM
I rather doubt it frankly. I believe the "book has been written" with regard to the Nazi nuclear development program, or non-program, so to speak.

Yeah, I know. But I heard about a recent book that claims that the NAZIs carried out dirty bomb tests on some island in 1943. I'd never heard of that either. Then again, there's a huge difference between a radiological weapon and a working physics package.

Either way, let's see what this DVD discovers...

:)

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 03:09 PM
Yeah, I know. But I heard about a recent book that claims that the NAZIs carried out dirty bomb tests on some island in 1943. I'd never heard of that either. Then again, there's a huge difference between a radiological weapon and a working physics package.

Either way, let's see what this DVD discovers...

:)

Yeah, you missed the fun in the DC forum, but CE landed on my ignore (first person in over a year to get there) so I'm only seeing whatever people are copying into their reply quotes from him.

Never heard about dirty bomb tests. :shrug:

StcChief
03-24-2006, 03:15 PM
Hey its me an old timer Lightning Rod but I can't access my home e-mail from work so I don't remember what my password is.


In an odd twist of fate... the biggest help to the Russians was from the British. The Brits and Russians (still allies at the time) were meeting about a technology exchange between "friends". The Russians got a tour of the jet engine factory and then won from the Brits the plans to their rolls Royce jet engine over a drunken game of billiards. This was the basis for the engine for the Mig-15 which became a large pain in the neck in Korea.

Nice. :rolleyes:

Garcia Bronco
03-24-2006, 03:17 PM
At one point the Soviets were allied with Nazi Germany.

Donger
03-24-2006, 03:19 PM
At one point the Soviets were allied with Nazi Germany.

Yeah, on paper.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 03:19 PM
At one point the Soviets were allied with Nazi Germany.


:spock:

More correct to say that "at one point, the Soviets and Nazis entered into a non-aggression pact and carved up Poland between themselves, and also engaged in mutual commerce".

To say "allies" implies a level of trust, coordination and teamwork that absolutely never existed.

FAX
03-24-2006, 03:27 PM
Man. You guys are making a whole lot better progress on this hypothetical than I did.

FAX

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 03:28 PM
Man. You guys are making a whole lot better progress on this hypothetical than I did.

FAX


No s**t. You've haven't even gotten to lunchtime yet.... :D

Garcia Bronco
03-24-2006, 03:36 PM
:spock:

More correct to say that "at one point, the Soviets and Nazis entered into a non-aggression pact and carved up Poland between themselves, and also engaged in mutual commerce".

To say "allies" implies a level of trust, coordination and teamwork that absolutely never existed.

They might not have slept in the same bed...but they were having protected sex.

Amnorix
03-24-2006, 03:38 PM
They might not have slept in the same bed...but they were having protected sex.

mmmm.....let's just say that they each took one end of Poland and gangbanged it right to oblivion together, and then went their separate ways. :LOL: :LOL:



(apologies to any here of Polish descent :) )

listopencil
03-24-2006, 05:58 PM
Let's assume that the Soviet Union was headed by Gandhi, and that Hitler had actually read a book about Napoleon. Bottom line: that front is stable.

How would WWII have progressed? Start your timeline in December of 1940 and trace it out.


As someone else already said, I think Germany would have attacked a neutral Soviet Union anyway. What would have a happened if America were a Theocracy based on Fundamental Christianity at the time of WWII?