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View Full Version : Forbes - Microsoft Vista: Not 'People Ready'


|Zach|
03-24-2006, 10:44 PM
http://www.forbes.com/technology/2006/03/22/vista-microsoft-ballmer_cz_dl_0322microsoft.html

Boston -

The new version of Microsoft Windows, called Vista, has slipped again. It was originally going to ship in 2003. Then 2005. Then 2006. Now in early 2007. I'm not surprised, having seen a demo of Microsoft's new programs at an "event" for tech buyers in New York last week.

The new programs are phenomenally complex, with scores of buttons and pull-down menus and myriad connections among various applications. A Microsoft (nasdaq: MSFT - news - people ) VP zipped through a demo, moving information from Outlook to Powerpoint to Groove to some kind of social networking program that lets you see how your colleagues and your colleagues' colleagues rate various Web sites.

Meanwhile, 500 tech buyers sat there in the dark, their eyes glazing over from the sheer mind-numbing pointlessness of most of this stuff. The audience laughed out loud when the Microsoft guy showed off a kludgey system that lets you fetch Outlook e-mail messages using voice commands from a cell phone.

The system has all the charm of those automated phone systems you encounter when you call customer service: Your call is very important to us. And while it is cool and futuristic to have a computer "read" your e-mail to you, uh, dude--we all have BlackBerrys anyway. In fact, many in the audience weren't even watching the voice-activated e-mail demo--they were checking mail on their BlackBerrys.

Even more ironic is that Microsoft has ginned up a new slogan, "People Ready," which apparently is meant to describe its software, or maybe it describes companies that use its software, or whatever. Who knows? It's one of those phrases that means anything, and so means nothing. Who makes this stuff up? Do they actually pay this person? And is Microsoft just figuring out now that its programs are used by--gasp--people?

Microsoft execs also talked about "Impacting People," then they dragged out fashion designer Tommy Hilfiger, who seemed very "impacted" as he sang praise for Microsoft programs. Actually, he was reading meaningless statements from a TelePrompTer. Here is one of his quotes, verbatim: "When you combine people and technology, you have a very powerful combination." Think about that. Just let it sink in for a minute.

And then there were the hacks. The press folks. Corralled down in back. Some were just talking out loud during Steve Ballmer's keynote speech, not even bothering to keep their voices down. Yeah. It was that kind of show.

Worse yet was the grumbling afterward in the press room. Why the hell did they drag us here? we wondered. We'd been promised big news and some earth-shattering announcements by Microsoft flacks who insisted this was something we shouldn't miss. Instead, we got a demo that was about as compelling as a root canal followed by a 15-minute press conference with Ballmer, the Microsoft chief executive who seems incapable of speaking at any level softer than a bellow. Ballmer took a few potshots at IBM (nyse: IBM - news - people ), claiming the computer giant doesn't innovate anymore.

No one mentioned the fact that in 1997, Microsoft held a similar event in New York City to declare that IBM's "big iron" was dead, because Windows NT--remember Windows NT?--was going to "scale up" and replace the mainframe. I wonder if Ballmer ever feels like the guy in Groundhog Day, reliving the same press conference, over and over. I know I do.

Oddly enough, some of the language of the Microsoft event was eerily similar to language about innovation in the new huge advertisements that IBM started running a few days later in newspapers. Did Microsoft somehow get wind of the ads? Who knows. But the event seemed thrown together to blunt the new ad campaign from IBM.

Worst of all, I can't believe Microsoft actually held this big nonevent "event" only a few days before announcing another screw-up in Vista. If Ballmer knew he was about to announce a delay and still had this event, he's crazy. If he didn't know Vista was about to slip again, then Microsoft is in worse shape than anyone realizes.

Microsoft can't afford to screw up like this. There are free alternatives to everything Microsoft sells, like the Linux operating system and the Open Office application suite. Rivals like Novell (nasdaq: NOVL - news - people ), Red Hat (nasdaq: RHAT - news - people ), Sun Microsystems (nasdaq: SUNW - news - people ) and, yes, IBM are pushing those programs big time.

Given Microsoft's delays I can't believe open-source stuff still hasn't caught on for desktop computers. It's amazing, but people will wait months and months for products that are so complicated that no ordinary person can figure out how to use them.

Why not at least switch to an Apple Computer (nasdaq: AAPL - news - people ) Mac? Apple's new operating system is stable, reliable and easy to use. The applications are simple, gorgeous and work well together. And they're here. Today. Steve Jobs must be waking up a happy man this morning.

Guru
03-24-2006, 10:58 PM
More reason to hate Microsoft.

Psyko Tek
03-24-2006, 11:15 PM
when games come out that are compatable with more thatn MS
they are sooo gone

Guru
03-24-2006, 11:16 PM
when games come out that are compatable with more thatn MS
they are sooo gone

The sooner the better. I would dump MS in a heartbeat if someone could create an OS that would run all the same programs.

StcChief
03-24-2006, 11:24 PM
The sooner the better. I would dump MS in a heartbeat if someone could create an OS that would run all the same programs.

Don't think same programs, think same functionality.

sourceforge has alot of opensource projects and you can run Linux desktop.

Pitt Gorilla
03-24-2006, 11:32 PM
OSX >>> Windows

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:14 AM
The sooner the better. I would dump MS in a heartbeat if someone could create an OS that would run all the same programs.
You've bought the MS hype that you need Word, Excel, Outlook, etc. The truth is there are free applications out there that perform all the same functions. I haven't relied on a Windows server or desktop for anything in years, yet I still communicate with lots of Windows users and they have no idea I'm NOT on Windows. Today's Linux is no harder to install than Windows, can be made to look just like Windows, and will run better on much, much, MUCH cheaper hardware.

It's not a bold step. The Unix variants have all the tools, the only thing they're missing is you installing it.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:15 AM
The part I find funniest about Vista continually slipping like this is that they've even taken out the major reason for moving off of XP, the WinFS filesystem. They flat dropped it from the spec years ago and STILL can't get the f**ker launched. Without that it's nothing more than an eye-candy release.

ROFL

Guru
03-25-2006, 12:17 AM
You've bought the MS hype that you need Word, Excel, Outlook, etc. The truth is there are free applications out there that perform all the same functions. I haven't relied on a Windows server or desktop for anything in years, yet I still communicate with lots of Windows users and they have no idea I'm NOT on Windows. Today's Linux is no harder to install than Windows, can be made to look just like Windows, and will run better on much, much, MUCH cheaper hardware.

It's not a bold step. The Unix variants have all the tools, the only thing they're missing is you installing it.

What version of Linix are you using?

greg63
03-25-2006, 12:19 AM
You've bought the MS hype that you need Word, Excel, Outlook, etc. The truth is there are free applications out there that perform all the same functions. I haven't relied on a Windows server or desktop for anything in years, yet I still communicate with lots of Windows users and they have no idea I'm NOT on Windows. Today's Linux is no harder to install than Windows, can be made to look just like Windows, and will run better on much, much, MUCH cheaper hardware.

It's not a bold step. The Unix variants have all the tools, the only thing they're missing is you installing it.

:hmmm:

I might have to give Linux a shot; I've not had the best of luck with MS.

Saulbadguy
03-25-2006, 12:21 AM
It is so cool to hate Microsoft.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:36 AM
What version of Linix are you using?
I use Suse 10.

http://www.opensuse.org/

It's easy as pie to install, and when you're done you'll have a fully functional desktop machine with an office suite, email client(s), web browser(s), media player(s), CD/DVD burning and authoring apps, Gimp (a Photoshop-type app), Acrobat Reader, Flash player, etc. Best part? It's all free and if the cops show up you don't have to hide it.

From the install CD set you can install a Project clone, games, Visio type apps, you name it.

Now, you're going to take one look at the download and see that it's 5 CDs. You're going to crap your pants. It will NOT install 5 CDs worth of stuff on your machine. There are half a dozen database servers, tons of utilities, a few gigs of stuff you probably won't ever use and it won't be installed on your machine.

Check out some screenshots of the default desktop:

http://www.kde.org/screenshots/kde340shots.php

Oh, and did I mention that if you don't like that desktop (KDE) you can install Gnome:

http://art.gnome.org/screenshots/

Neither of those really meet your needs? Like things a little more utilitarian? Try blackbox, fluxbox, IceWM, XFCE....

Want lots of eyecandy? Try Enlightenment:

http://enlightenment.sourceforge.net/Enlightenment/Screenshots/DR17_User_Screenshots/index.html

The point is choice. The distro gives you a canned Linux that will work for you, but as you become more familiar you can CHOOSE different things that make more sense for you and work better for you. You can make your choices based on what's best, not what you can afford.

I'll happily help where I can for anyone that wants to switch. However, if you need support the IRC is a great place. For Suse you can head over to Freenode's #suse where there are, on average, 280 Suse users hanging out helping eachother. I've never once had a question go unanswered for more than a couple of hours.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:37 AM
It is so cool to hate Microsoft.
I don't hate them. That's like saying you hated the retarded kid in school who drooled on himself and rode around in a motorized wheelchair. What would be the point of hating someone like that? I just see them for what they are: a company living off people's abhorrence of change.

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 12:49 AM
I am sitting with a machine with Windows XP with a lot of crap on it. How messy or risky will it be to try one of these Linux OS's.

I have been pretty intrigued.

Will it play nice with things like Photoshop and most programs?

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:53 AM
I am sitting with a machine with Windows XP with a lot of crap on it. How messy or risky will it be to try one of these Linux OS's.

I have been pretty intrigued.
Linux will install alongside Windows if you have an extra drive or free space on your current drive. All the major Linux distro's will configure a boot loader so that you can choose Linux or Windows when you boot up. Most will even mount your Windows partition (read only) so you can get to your Windows files from Linux.

You may need a Partition Magic-type utility to resize your Windows partition down if you don't have a spare drive and your disk is fully partitioned for Windows.

Mandrake Linux used to include a partition resizer in their installer, but there are other free partition resizing tools.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:53 AM
Will it play nice with things like Photoshop and most programs?
Photoshop won't run but Gimp will open and edit .psd files.

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 12:55 AM
Linux will install alongside Windows if you have an extra drive or free space on your current drive. All the major Linux distro's will configure a boot loader so that you can choose Linux or Windows when you boot up. Most will even mount your Windows partition (read only) so you can get to your Windows files from Linux.

You may need a Partition Magic-type utility to resize your Windows partition down if you don't have a spare drive and your disk is fully partitioned for Windows.

Mandrake Linux used to include a partition resizer in their installer, but there are other free partition resizing tools.
Thats intersting....and it makes sense. I guess thats the thing. I didn't know how everything went together.

I would be much more open to switching it up if I knew a lot of the things I use on a consistant basis would play nice.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:58 AM
Thats intersting....and it makes sense. I guess thats the thing. I didn't know how everything went together.

I would be much more open to switching it up if I knew a lot of the things I use on a consistant basis would play nice.
Like someone said earlier, you have to be ready to try new apps to accomplish the same goals. The best thing is you don't HAVE to go all in from day one. You can boot back and forth. Use Linux until you just can't get something and don't have time to figure it out, then jump back over to Windows and do it in the old, familiar tool.

Give it a couple of weeks. Everyone I've ever switched comes back after a couple of weeks and is asking "why the f**k does MS do that like THAT?". Mac users go even further down that road.

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 01:01 AM
Like someone said earlier, you have to be ready to try new apps to accomplish the same goals. The best thing is you don't HAVE to go all in from day one. You can boot back and forth. Use Linux until you just can't get something and don't have time to figure it out, then jump back over to Windows and do it in the old, familiar tool.

Give it a couple of weeks. Everyone I've ever switched comes back after a couple of weeks and is asking "why the f**k does MS do that like THAT?". Mac users go even further down that road.
What kind of space am I looking at taking up?

I am all about trying new things. You think Mac users have even more to gain? I have been thinking about switching to Mac as well...

I just feel like there is better than what I have right now and am interested in oter things.

J Diddy
03-25-2006, 01:03 AM
Like someone said earlier, you have to be ready to try new apps to accomplish the same goals. The best thing is you don't HAVE to go all in from day one. You can boot back and forth. Use Linux until you just can't get something and don't have time to figure it out, then jump back over to Windows and do it in the old, familiar tool.

Give it a couple of weeks. Everyone I've ever switched comes back after a couple of weeks and is asking "why the f**k does MS do that like THAT?". Mac users go even further down that road.


How difficult is it to find drivers? I tried a switch on a second drive a couple of years back. I gave up because I couldn't find any drivers.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 01:06 AM
What kind of space am I looking at taking up?

I am all about trying new things. You think Mac users have even more to gain? I have been thinking about switching to Mac as well...

I just feel like there is better than what I have right now and am interested in oter things.
The default install for Suse is around 2G, but that is your OS, office suite, image editing app, 90% of what you'll need. I have a TON of s**t installed and I have around 3G used. I'd say you should set aside at least 5G, 20 is plenty unless you're going to store a bunch of iso's, movies, etc.

As for the Mac, I've used all three and I prefer Linux. The Mac beats the pants off of Windows IMO, but I get more flexibility with Linux and it's much cheaper to try out.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 01:09 AM
How difficult is it to find drivers? I tried a switch on a second drive a couple of years back. I gave up because I couldn't find any drivers.
Suse 10 and Ubuntu's hardware support is fantastic. Unless you have some really, really strange crap you it will all work out of the box. I have a USB scanner, USB mouse, flash drive, DVD burner, CD burner, Nvidia Quadro 280NVS with dual monitors, Creative Live sound card, a Gig-E card, and it all worked out of the box. I know people with webcams, etc. Oh, and I've pulled video off of my Sony camcorder using the firewire port, no configuration needed on my part.


[/edit] I also have twin SATA HDD's, an 800MHz FSB, Hyperthreading enabled, etc.

I also run Suse on my laptop which has a widescreen monitor, an Intel wireless NIC, a different Gig-E card, a PC-Card slot, etc. All of that works out of the box, too.
[/edit]

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 01:09 AM
The default install for Suse is around 2G, but that is your OS, office suite, image editing app, 90% of what you'll need. I have a TON of s**t installed and I have around 3G used. I'd say you should set aside at least 5G, 20 is plenty unless you're going to store a bunch of iso's, movies, etc.

As for the Mac, I've used all three and I prefer Linux. The Mac beats the pants off of Windows IMO, but I get more flexibility with Linux and it's much cheaper to try out.
Thats not bad at all. The SUSE one you are using...would you reccomend it for me where I am at or should I go another direction.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 01:13 AM
Thats not bad at all. The SUSE one you are using...would you reccomend it for me where I am at or should I go another direction.
Suse is very easy to install and use, it's very complete out of the box, and the #suse IRC channel is really REALLY good to noobs. It's also very large and has lots of commercial app support unlike some of the obscure Linux distros. It's a great place to start.

Guru
03-25-2006, 01:14 AM
I was reading about Linux/Windows gaming here...

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3269115798.html

I don't play many games but am curious as to what I could do on Linux.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 01:17 AM
I was reading about Linux/Windows gaming here...

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3269115798.html

I don't play many games but am curious as to what I could do on Linux.
I just finished playing some Unreal Tournament on my Linux box. :shrug:

Return to Castle Wolfenstein ran on Linux as well. You just have to keep your eyes peeled, several games are Linux compat.

There's a free combat flight simulator called GL-117. Of course the typical chess, solitaire, minesweeper, breakout, tetris, etc.

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 01:18 AM
I am going to give it a whirl. Thanks for the info. Should be interesting to see what comes about...

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 01:22 AM
I suppose I should mention the Linux LiveCDs. Basically you download an ISO, burn it to disk, then boot from it. It's slow but it will let you run linux without having to install anything. You obviously can't install software and any config changes you make will be lost on reboot, but it's a nice way to get your feet wet:

Suse: http://www.novell.com/products/suselinux/downloads/ftp/mirrors_isos.html

Mepis:
http://www.simplymepis.org/

Knoppix:
http://www.knoppix.org/

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 01:28 AM
I started a GeeksPlanet thread so I can find the questions more easily and it's in a more appropriate forum:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=137925

Guru
03-25-2006, 01:47 AM
Well, I may have to try the bootable DVD and see what it looks like. I may be in touch with ya over the weekend. My Windows XP has been pissin me off this week so I am just about ready for a change anyway.

sedated
03-25-2006, 03:31 AM
i just want a CD player that doesn't skip

Bearcat
03-25-2006, 07:27 AM
Microsoft releases software without thoroughly testing -- everyone hates them.

Microsoft delays software because they want to make sure it all works -- everyone hates them.

Cochise
03-25-2006, 07:38 AM
SUSE is pretty neat. I also once had a version that Corel had put out that I thought was really good.

The stuff that comes bundled with these boxed Linux OSes though, does not usually seem very polished. I like Linux as much as the next guy and the machine I'm using right now will dual boot to SUSE, but I rarely use it.

For one thing, I've never been able to get it to connect to the internet (my connection is wireless to cable modem). At home, pretty much all I do on a computer is poke around on the internet. If I can't get it to do that then it isn't much use to me. I'm sure a newer version would probaly be better, but since what I have now works fine... why mess with it?

KC Jones
03-25-2006, 08:37 AM
Anyone interested in trying Linux should know that the biggest hurdle people have is trying to pick a linux distro. There are hundreds after all. My reccomendation is to try one of the more popular distros (Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu), because they will have the best documentation and support forums. Also know that you can download and burn a 'live Cd' for most distros, this means that your PC will boot from the CD into linux so you can see what it's like without ever changing anything on your hard drive. Pop the Cd out and reboot into windows and you have the exact same windows PC you did before. It's a great way to just see what a linux distro is like and some of the applications it comes bundled with.

BTW, I'm another happy Suse user, but I do dual boot into windows for games.

KC Jones
03-25-2006, 08:43 AM
For one thing, I've never been able to get it to connect to the internet (my connection is wireless to cable modem). At home, pretty much all I do on a computer is poke around on the internet. If I can't get it to do that then it isn't much use to me. I'm sure a newer version would probaly be better, but since what I have now works fine... why mess with it?

Common problem with some older Suse versions that I faced too. You see Suse and some of the applications that come with it are pre-configured to use IPv6. Certain cheap crappy routers/cable modems/dsl modems are crippled with respect to IPv6 and instead only handle IPv4 addressing. Basically it's like a 2 step fix to cure this problem - try googling it.

Deberg_1990
03-25-2006, 08:47 AM
Microsoft releases software without thoroughly testing -- everyone hates them.

Microsoft delays software because they want to make sure it all works -- everyone hates them.

While im not huge Microsoft supporter, i feel most of the critisism they recieve is unjust. I think most people just love knocking them because they are #1 and its the "cool" thing to do.

Our society loves to knock the guy at the top off his perch a little bit and we love to root for the underdog. Its human nature.

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 08:48 AM
Microsoft releases software without thoroughly testing -- everyone hates them.

Microsoft delays software because they want to make sure it all works -- everyone hates them.
Oh it is no win for them but I don't think it would be a huge deal from people if customers had more faith in the bolded part. I don't think thats the case.

Saulbadguy
03-25-2006, 08:56 AM
While im not huge Microsoft supporter, i feel most of the critisism they recieve is unjust. I think most people just love knocking them because they are #1 and its the "cool" thing to do.

Our society loves to knock the guy at the top off his perch a little bit and we love to root for the underdog. Its human nature.
Yep.

SLAG
03-25-2006, 09:03 AM
While im not huge Microsoft supporter, i feel most of the critisism they recieve is unjust. I think most people just love knocking them because they are #1 and its the "cool" thing to do.

Our society loves to knock the guy at the top off his perch a little bit and we love to root for the underdog. Its human nature.

I disagree, Mircosoft deserves 100% of the bad mouthing they get, the justice department wasnt after them for nothin'

their system is unstable, Support is a joke, I havent seen anything good come from M$ in a long time

KC Jones
03-25-2006, 09:59 AM
While im not huge Microsoft supporter, i feel most of the critisism they recieve is unjust. I think most people just love knocking them because they are #1 and its the "cool" thing to do.

Our society loves to knock the guy at the top off his perch a little bit and we love to root for the underdog. Its human nature.

I knock MS for their illegal business practices. You like most people probably have no idea what goes on in IT or the stories behind MS. They illegally built a monopoly and now regularly abuse that position in the industry to kill competition, stifle innovation, and hurt consumers.

I believe in markets free to let the best ideas win. That's part of the reason why open source is so important - it's the only mechanism for IT creativity and innovation that can't be killed or dominated by the MS monopoly.

dirk digler
03-25-2006, 10:23 AM
I knock MS for their illegal business practices. You like most people probably have no idea what goes on in IT or the stories behind MS. They illegally built a monopoly and now regularly abuse that position in the industry to kill competition, stifle innovation, and hurt consumers.

I believe in markets free to let the best ideas win. That's part of the reason why open source is so important - it's the only mechanism for IT creativity and innovation that can't be killed or dominated by the MS monopoly.

I am in the IT industry and MS doesn't do anything different than any other major corporation does, the only difference is they are the big dog in IT.

Look at Walmart, they come in and build in small towns and kill the local mom's and pops store who sell unique or different products that Walmart doesn't normally sell. So what does Walmart do? They will start selling those same products as the mom and pops at substantially lower prices and drive those stores completely out of business.

To me I see no difference in the two yet MS has been sued and investigated more times than any other corporation in the world yet Walmart gets a free pass.

As far as the open source movement goes if and I mean if they start making products that even come close to MS than the corporations and large businesses that drive the IT industry will pay attention and start using them but that hasn't happened yet. Why? Because open source products for the most part suck ass and are a pain in the ass to IT staff to support.

To give you an example, we recently migrated our IT infrastrutcture over to Citrix. My boss who hates MS, wanted us to start using OpenOffice 2.0 because it was free. So we tried to install it on Terminal Services and Citrix and the piece of shit wouldn't even configure right. We had 2 CCNA's and 2 MSCE's for a week straight who tried to make it work and they couldn't. Finally we said **** it we are going back to MS Office because we know it works. That is the difference between real products and open source.

ChiefsLV
03-25-2006, 11:01 AM
Bitch all you want about Microsoft, but you still can't give me a better platform to game on than a Windows PC.

Check out these screenshots: http://www.extremetech.com/slideshow/0,1206,l=&s=25534&a=167795,00.asp

Also, for those of you who think Vista will just be eye candy, check out this article:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1931913,00.asp

Fewer parts of the OS as a whole run in Kernel mode - most drivers run in User mode, for instance. Things that run in Kernel mode are prevented from installing without verified security certificates, and even then they require administrator-level user permission. In Vista, it should be much more difficult for unauthorized programs (like Viruses and Trojans) to affect the core of the OS and secretly harm your system. In theory, you practically have to invite one in.

The driver model of Vista has been totally changed. Many of the drivers that used to sit at the system (kernel) level are now at the user level, which means that when drivers fail, your whole system shouldn't crash. You should also be able to update most drivers without rebooting your system.

KC Jones
03-25-2006, 11:06 AM
I am in the IT industry and MS doesn't do anything different than any other major corporation does, the only difference is they are the big dog in IT.

Look at Walmart, they come in and build in small towns and kill the local mom's and pops store who sell unique or different products that Walmart doesn't normally sell. So what does Walmart do? They will start selling those same products as the mom and pops at substantially lower prices and drive those stores completely out of business.

To me I see no difference in the two yet MS has been sued and investigated more times than any other corporation in the world yet Walmart gets a free pass.

As far as the open source movement goes if and I mean if they start making products that even come close to MS than the corporations and large businesses that drive the IT industry will pay attention and start using them but that hasn't happened yet. Why? Because open source products for the most part suck ass and are a pain in the ass to IT staff to support.

To give you an example, we recently migrated our IT infrastrutcture over to Citrix. My boss who hates MS, wanted us to start using OpenOffice 2.0 because it was free. So we tried to install it on Terminal Services and Citrix and the piece of shit wouldn't even configure right. We had 2 CCNA's and 2 MSCE's for a week straight who tried to make it work and they couldn't. Finally we said **** it we are going back to MS Office because we know it works. That is the difference between real products and open source.

Walmart doesn't purposely make it so that your walmart shovel will not shovel fertilizer purchased from a non-walmart source.

Walmart does compete, with Target, etc.

MSCE != competent with non-MS technologies. I'm not surprised your pet project didn't work out given a staff built around MS products. In your case it wouldn't be worth the costs to retrain or restaff in order to make a go of it. That doesn't mean the problem was with the product. Open source works very well IF you have the right staff or consultants to make a go of it.

Linux is taking over the data center, because it is a better product than Windows for that environment. It's also a great developer desktop and some distros are even good for average joe home users. It took MS forever to convert hotmail from linux to windows servers. They ran into a lot of problems along the way and from all reports the specialized windows servers they ended up building ended up being a lot more like the linux servers than a windows platform.

MS is only just like every other corporation in the sense that they are all ruthlessly comptetive and willing to throw all of their clout into winning. The difference is that 1) they break the law, 2) they are more like Ma Bell than Walmart in terms of their market position and clout.

Bearcat
03-25-2006, 11:30 AM
While im not huge Microsoft supporter, i feel most of the critisism they recieve is unjust. I think most people just love knocking them because they are #1 and its the "cool" thing to do.

Our society loves to knock the guy at the top off his perch a little bit and we love to root for the underdog. Its human nature.

Yeah, they just had an article in Fortune about the new "2nd mover advantage" that companies now have. All the top companies obviously had the advantage of being the first in their industry, but in the past few years people have transferred their hatred of the Yankees and Duke to Microsoft, Wal Mart, Home Depot, Intel, etc.

Not only does Target, Lowe's, AMD, etc; get more sales due to this hatred, they get to see what the top company does wrong so they can avoid their mistakes.

Oh it is no win for them but I don't think it would be a huge deal from people if customers had more faith in the bolded part. I don't think thats the case.


I think it's generally harder for non-programming people to understand how complicated this stuff is... my older brother, for example, is always bitching about how he hates technology because "it never works", because this one time, it like, didn't work.

I do agree with you that Microsoft has to prove their stuff works because they've released stuff they shouldn't have in years past, but we still need to be patient, because it's new territory for them, too.

Pencils have erasers, software has patches ;)

I am in the IT industry and MS doesn't do anything different than any other major corporation does, the only difference is they are the big dog in IT.


It's been shown in court that they've done illegal things.. what KC Jones said is correct.

Look at Walmart, they come in and build in small towns and kill the local mom's and pops store who sell unique or different products that Walmart doesn't normally sell. So what does Walmart do? They will start selling those same products as the mom and pops at substantially lower prices and drive those stores completely out of business.

To me I see no difference in the two yet MS has been sued and investigated more times than any other corporation in the world yet Walmart gets a free pass.


It's illegal to price below cost in order to drive away competition. Wal Mart does not do this... they use their buying power to price lower than competition to drive away competition. Wal Mart created their monopoly power (this isn't the correct term, but I'm drawing a blank) legally, Microsoft did not.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:49 PM
Microsoft releases software without thoroughly testing -- everyone hates them.

Microsoft delays software because they want to make sure it all works -- everyone hates them.
5 *YEARS* of "making sure it all works", eh? Dropping the major features along thte way?

ROFL

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:50 PM
I'm sure a newer version would probaly be better, but since what I have now works fine... why mess with it?
What you have doesn't connect to the web, which is the one thing you want to do, but what you have works for you?

I'm confused.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:56 PM
As far as the open source movement goes if and I mean if they start making products that even come close to MS than the corporations and large businesses that drive the IT industry will pay attention and start using them but that hasn't happened yet. Why? Because open source products for the most part suck ass and are a pain in the ass to IT staff to support.

To give you an example, we recently migrated our IT infrastrutcture over to Citrix. My boss who hates MS, wanted us to start using OpenOffice 2.0 because it was free. So we tried to install it on Terminal Services and Citrix and the piece of shit wouldn't even configure right. We had 2 CCNA's and 2 MSCE's for a week straight who tried to make it work and they couldn't. Finally we said **** it we are going back to MS Office because we know it works. That is the difference between real products and open source.
Had you involved a single Java developer and asked the OpenOffice guys for help you would have it working for yourself and everyone else, too. The problem isn't open source, the problem is your understanding of how it works.

And btw, open source's biggest hurdle isn't that the apps aren't quality, they are. "Their" problem is your abhorance of change.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 12:59 PM
Bitch all you want about Microsoft, but you still can't give me a better platform to game on than a Windows PC.

Check out these screenshots: http://www.extremetech.com/slideshow/0,1206,l=&s=25534&a=167795,00.asp

Also, for those of you who think Vista will just be eye candy, check out this article:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1931913,00.asp
HOLY CRAP!!! ALERT THE MEDIA!!! In a mere 8 years they've managed to do SOME of what a free OS has been doing for decades! And just think, they're just a little multi-billion dollar corporation!

morphius
03-25-2006, 12:59 PM
Just for giggles, back in the late 90's I worked for a relatively large reseller (computer) and anyone in the company could buy MS stuff for next to nothing. I remember pricing the full office suite at $15. Which was a bit different then the 280+ it was in the stores.

Calcountry
03-25-2006, 04:56 PM
Microsoft releases software without thoroughly testing -- everyone hates them.

Microsoft delays software because they want to make sure it all works -- everyone hates them.Microsoft forces upgrades when you are happy with the old shit, evryone hates them.

ChiefsLV
03-25-2006, 05:47 PM
HOLY CRAP!!! ALERT THE MEDIA!!! In a mere 8 years they've managed to do SOME of what a free OS has been doing for decades! And just think, they're just a little multi-billion dollar corporation!

Your free OS can't run the latest DX9 games. And if it is so great, why hasn't everybody jumped on board, including corporations? I mean they would have to be stupid to continue paying for something they can get for free...

Mr. Laz
03-25-2006, 06:27 PM
the only reason anyone still uses microsoft is because of the broad compatibility.

morphius
03-25-2006, 06:34 PM
Your free OS can't run the latest DX9 games. And if it is so great, why hasn't everybody jumped on board, including corporations? I mean they would have to be stupid to continue paying for something they can get for free...
But you do notice that more and more games are coming out for Linux all the time...

Baby Lee
03-25-2006, 06:48 PM
Since I haven't seen anything close to MCE's HDTV functionality, I'm kinda hooked.

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 06:50 PM
Since I haven't seen anything close to MCE's HDTV functionality, I'm kinda hooked.
mce?

morphius
03-25-2006, 06:55 PM
mce?
XP Media Center Edition

|Zach|
03-25-2006, 06:57 PM
XP Media Center Edition
Ah, thanks.

Bob Dole
03-25-2006, 07:33 PM
I mean they would have to be stupid to continue paying for something they can get for free...

There are indirect costs associated with almost any enterprise-wide platform implementation. When something is as entrenched as MS Windows, it's going to take a major development for something else (*nix) to push it off the desktop, simply because of the indirect cost of supporting it.

You can pay $400 for an OS with which the majority of the people are familiar and support it with limited technical staff.

A free OS isn't really free if you have to add two FTEs to cover the increased training and support.

Taco John
03-25-2006, 07:39 PM
He had me until he started pimping the Mac. Then I realized he doesn't know anything about computers and just wants a computer that will reflect it.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 07:43 PM
Your free OS can't run the latest DX9 games. And if it is so great, why hasn't everybody jumped on board, including corporations? I mean they would have to be stupid to continue paying for something they can get for free...
If your computer is a gloroified gaming console, by all means stick to Windows. Call me when you've grown up and want to use the computer to accomplish goals.

As for corportations, the issue is re-training of the users as well as the support staff. It is going to take a lot to displace MS there. However, in the datacenter where the employees are already skilled you see Windows being dropped like the bad habit it is. It will only be a matter of time before *nix finds it's way out onto the floor. As IT managers see the reduced hardware needs and costs that *nix provides them companies with good long term planning will spend the money the would have spent on upgrades (say Vista) on training instead. Once they make that move they will also get a longer serviceable lifetime out of their hardware.

Bearcat
03-25-2006, 07:57 PM
5 *YEARS* of "making sure it all works", eh? Dropping the major features along thte way?

ROFL

Exactly.

If they keep the features and they don't work, we all hate Microsoft. If they need more time to test, we all hate Microsoft. If they don't give us the details... if they give us details and then have to cut back on features... if it's released today and it needs many patches.. if it gets delayed ten times and then only needs a few patches...

I think I'll leave it up to the multi billion dollar corporation to tell me when the best time for them is to release their product after years of criticism about security, customization, compatibility, etc; etc.... but it better be perfect :rolleyes:

Taco John
03-25-2006, 07:58 PM
I have a hard time believing Linux will ever find it's way into the workforce. It might be used for back end applications where only geeks have to interact with it. But as far as productivity goes, I don't see the value add...

conchshell
03-25-2006, 08:05 PM
Holy cow. I had to check if I was in /. or digg. ok, I am a computer power user and honestly, *nix sucked for me big time. Gentoo was the reasonable distro for me but damn it for its package compiling. Please tell me if anybody can top Win2k in ease of use and availability. And no, people don't pay from their nose for these products either. I got mine from a ... friend

conchshell
03-25-2006, 08:10 PM
I have a hard time believing Linux will ever find it's way into the workforce. It might be used for back end applications where only geeks have to interact with it. But as far as productivity goes, I don't see the value add...

You are right. Linux is out there bigtime in the server category and deservedly so. But the linux desktop sucks for an average user. My ex works for redhat and she hated Open Office.

conchshell
03-25-2006, 08:13 PM
The problem isn't open source, the problem is your understanding of how it works.

And btw, open source's biggest hurdle isn't that the apps aren't quality, they are. "Their" problem is your abhorance of change.

ha. Why don't you give the same benefit of doubt to microsoft?

irishjayhawk
03-25-2006, 08:40 PM
Had you involved a single Java developer and asked the OpenOffice guys for help you would have it working for yourself and everyone else, too. The problem isn't open source, the problem is your understanding of how it works.

And btw, open source's biggest hurdle isn't that the apps aren't quality, they are. "Their" problem is your abhorance of change.

Best summary of open source, I've ever heard.

irishjayhawk
03-25-2006, 08:44 PM
He had me until he started pimping the Mac. Then I realized he doesn't know anything about computers and just wants a computer that will reflect it.

How come? I just got a Mac and won't be buying a Windows desktop ever again, as best I can help.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 08:47 PM
ha. Why don't you give the same benefit of doubt to microsoft?
I hold an MCSE, an MCSD in VB6 and an MCSD.NET in C#. I was on MS's beta team for the .NET platform, they paid for me to take the .NET certification exams in their beta form. I know MS. I don't have to give them benefit of the doubt, I've been there/done that.

Sell bigotry somewhere else, I can see through it.

Bob Dole
03-25-2006, 09:01 PM
As IT managers see the reduced hardware needs and costs that *nix provides them companies with good long term planning will spend the money the would have spent on upgrades (say Vista) on training instead. Once they make that move they will also get a longer serviceable lifetime out of their hardware.

And the name of your fantasy planet is?

Bob Dole can hire a helpdesk employee with a firm grasp of Windows in less than a week for $10/hour. Someone with a firm grasp of *nix is going to take 4x that time to locate and then they're going to demand twice the compensation.

Which completely ignores that your theoretical upgrade savings vanish if you adhere to a desktop life-cycle model instead of following an application driven model. Your choice of model is going to depend on your industry of course, but the bulk of the desktops out there aren't going to be so software-centric that you can't wait until the hardware hits the life-cycle limit before it's replaced anyway and you migrate to the new OS.

If you actually believe that the majority of companies see that MS has released a new OS and immediately replace all their desktops, you've been drinking the Linus Paulding Koolaid too long.

ChiefsLV
03-25-2006, 09:02 PM
If your computer is a gloroified gaming console, by all means stick to Windows. Call me when you've grown up and want to use the computer to accomplish goals.

As for corportations, the issue is re-training of the users as well as the support staff. It is going to take a lot to displace MS there. However, in the datacenter where the employees are already skilled you see Windows being dropped like the bad habit it is. It will only be a matter of time before *nix finds it's way out onto the floor. As IT managers see the reduced hardware needs and costs that *nix provides them companies with good long term planning will spend the money the would have spent on upgrades (say Vista) on training instead. Once they make that move they will also get a longer serviceable lifetime out of their hardware.


So, your argument is that because I play games on a PC from time to time, I'm not grown up? I think you might be a little out of touch with my generation. We grew up on Atari, Nintendo, etc. For a lot of us, gaming will probably always be part of our life to some degree. Are you telling me you aren't going to try Madden 2012 when they ditch the standard controller for a motion sensing vest that can detect where your body motion is throwing the ball? Of course, I'll likely play that on a console, so you got me there.

I work in an IT department where we don't use Linux. I hardly consider myself unskilled as do I hardly consider the thousands of companies in search of C#/.net programmers right now unskilled.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of companies use Microsoft and the minority use something else, and they do so for a reason. I do think Linux has a place, just not on my desktop.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 09:18 PM
So, your argument is that because I play games on a PC from time to time, I'm not grown up? I think you might be a little out of touch with my generation.
First, I'll bet we're the same generation. Second, if you choose your productivity software based entirely on your penchant for gaming then in my opinion you have some growing up to do.

JBucc
03-25-2006, 09:23 PM
People ready? Ha! They need to make it chimp ready so all the retards out there can work it.

dirk digler
03-25-2006, 09:23 PM
It's been shown in court that they've done illegal things.. what KC Jones said is correct.




Yeah because Larry Ellison and Scott McNealy have never done anything illegal or try to push away competition.

:rolleyes:

ChiefsLV
03-25-2006, 09:24 PM
First, I'll bet we're the same generation. Second, if you choose your productivity software based entirely on your penchant for gaming then in my opinion you have some growing up to do.

But it does so much more... I can make movies on it easily. I can organize my music, download music, rip music, connect to my mp3 player just by plugging it in, etc. I can do word processing and graphics on it. It's compatible with all of the best software titles. And the kicker is... I can do all of these things, AND game on the same PC. And with Vista, I can even alt tab between a 3D game and my other apps because the graphics system has been redesigned to run on Direct X.

Yeah baby!

You never answered my question though. Will you play Madden 2012 in the motion sensing vest?
:BLVD:

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 09:25 PM
Yeah because Larry Ellison and Scott McNealy have never done anything illegal or try to push away competition.

:rolleyes:
Those two guys are more stupid and/or crazy than anything else.

conchshell
03-25-2006, 09:30 PM
I hold an MCSE, an MCSD in VB6 and an MCSD.NET in C#. I was on MS's beta team for the .NET platform, they paid for me to take the .NET certification exams in their beta form. I know MS. I don't have to give them benefit of the doubt, I've been there/done that.

Sell bigotry somewhere else, I can see through it.

Hang on buddy. Nothing in my post suggests bigotry for microsoft. For full disclosure, I happen to work on Oracle databases and I hate SQL server (on enterprise systems). But that's it. Give me a valid reason to abandon Win2K and I will gladly listen to you.

dirk digler
03-25-2006, 09:35 PM
Had you involved a single Java developer and asked the OpenOffice guys for help you would have it working for yourself and everyone else, too. The problem isn't open source, the problem is your understanding of how it works.

And btw, open source's biggest hurdle isn't that the apps aren't quality, they are. "Their" problem is your abhorance of change.

I shouldn't have to call up the developers to get it to install and configure right on Terminal Services that is the point. Why should I go through all of that extra hassle just to get it to work right when I get MS Office to work right the first time.

People not wanting to change I admit is a big hurdle but it is laughable that the products are even close to the quality of some MS products. I am always looking for the next great product because I don't like to pay the high prices for MS products but their really isn't anything out there that is even close to MS Office, XP/2003, and their Server lines.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 09:35 PM
But it does so much more... I can make movies on it easily. I can organize my music, download music, rip music, connect to my mp3 player just by plugging it in, etc. I can do word processing and graphics on it. It's compatible with all of the best software titles. And the kicker is... I can do all of these things, AND game on the same PC. And with Vista, I can even alt tab between a 3D game and my other apps because the graphics system has been redesigned to run on Direct X.

Yeah baby!
Funny, other then DX apps there's not one thing in your list that Linux hasn't been doing for the last year or two. Check the bottom of the post, it's me doing what you are so excited about in Windows Vista. Playing a game (UT), surfind CP, playing an MP3 which comes out of my indexed collection (including album covers, lyrics, song ratings, etc), with my multi-protocol IM client running, as well as my PIM. You don't see my USB flash drive and my other peripherals but you get the idea.

You never answered my question though. Will you play Madden 2012 in the motion sensing vest?
:BLVD:
Probably not. If I wanted to play football I'd go play football.

.

dirk digler
03-25-2006, 09:37 PM
Those two guys are more stupid and/or crazy than anything else.

I agree but they were the catalysts for the Justice Department investigation of MS.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 09:41 PM
I shouldn't have to call up the developers to get it to install and configure right on Terminal Services that is the point. Why should I go through all of that extra hassle just to get it to work right when I get MS Office to work right the first time.

People not wanting to change I admit is a big hurdle but it is laughable that the products are even close to the quality of some MS products. I am always looking for the next great product because I don't like to pay the high prices for MS products but their really isn't anything out there that is even close to MS Office, XP/2003, and their Server lines.
If you honestly believe that MS's server products are great then I would question your dedication to finding alernatives. The only MS server product that I wasn't displeased with was SQL Server. Exchange is a pig (and it's just a freaking mail server), IIS is a security incident waiting to happen.

But let's go back to your first paragraph. You're going to try and tell me, with a straight face, that you installed Citrix Metaframe with Office, etc. etc., with NO TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE, and it all worked the first time? I'm calling bulls**t there. You had training. You had help. Whether you account for it or not you had years of experience building up to the point when you installed all of that. Give that same level of effort to anything else and you'll be suprised what you can do.

dirk digler
03-25-2006, 09:56 PM
If you honestly believe that MS's server products are great then I would question your dedication to finding alernatives. The only MS server product that I wasn't displeased with was SQL Server. Exchange is a pig (and it's just a freaking mail server), IIS is a security incident waiting to happen.

But let's go back to your first paragraph. You're going to try and tell me, with a straight face, that you installed Citrix Metaframe with Office, etc. etc., with NO TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE, and it all worked the first time? I'm calling bulls**t there. You had training. You had help. Whether you account for it or not you had years of experience building up to the point when you installed all of that. Give that same level of effort to anything else and you'll be suprised what you can do.

I do believe "some" of their products are very good. I am the Exchange Admin along with my other 100 duties and I LOVE Exchange. I set it up and it runs with very little mainteance and the only hog of Exchange is I/O. I just installed SQL Server 2005 so I really have no opinion of it because I am not a DB guy so I will defer to other people on that. I honestly believe Windows Server 2003 installed correctly and configured correctly is the best server out on the market right now hands down. Right now nothing is good as Office that is why it has like 95% market share. Other IT departments as we have did try alternatives and NONE matched Office. We tried StarOffice 6-7, OpenOffice, and a couple of other free ones and they all pretty much suck. I will say that OpenOffice is getting much better but it just isn't there yet.

We had a consulting company come in and help us migrate to a Citrix environment because I only had played with our test environment running in Citrix. Citrix just sits on top of Terminal Services and publishes apps out to users so you install apps just like you do on the desktop and publish the apps. It is pretty easy to do. Managing Citrix and Terminal Services is alot more difficult but to install apps and publish them is very easy.

For the record I use Firefox religiously and I will never use IE unless I absolutely have to. And I am also testing out Wyse and Neoware thinclients running Linux so I believe I am pretty open minded. I just want IT products that are easy to use and not a pain in the ass to setup and get it running correctly.

morphius
03-25-2006, 10:00 PM
I agree but they were the catalysts for the Justice Department investigation of MS.
Of course that still doesn't explain why MS is in so much trouble in the EU. Of course the EU isn't letting MS just buy their way out of it, unlike our gov't. I mean seriously, giving away MS computers to schools as a way to get out of getting in trouble, which is something that they wanted a foot hold into anyway? Lame.

That being said, I still don't think Linux is desktop ready for the general users, but it is getting closer every year. Also, as Bob Dole said, us *nix guys don't exactly come cheap. Lucky for me, my company only allows MS on the internel network and not our customer network.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 10:02 PM
I do believe "some" of their products are very good. I am the Exchange Admin along with my other 100 duties and I LOVE Exchange. I set it up and it runs with very little mainteance and the only hog of Exchange is I/O.
I haven't done anything to my FreeBSD/Postfix/Courier mail server in over a year including rebooting or patching. Well, except collect mail. I have a pretty little web interface that I add domains and user accounts with. I also have spam control and anti-virus built in. IMAPS, TLS, the whole 9 yards. All free. Betcha can't say that.

:)

My server also sits on the web with no firewall and has never been hacked in over 3 years. How 'bout them apples?

dirk digler
03-25-2006, 10:18 PM
Of course that still doesn't explain why MS is in so much trouble in the EU. Of course the EU isn't letting MS just buy their way out of it, unlike our gov't. I mean seriously, giving away MS computers to schools as a way to get out of getting in trouble, which is something that they wanted a foot hold into anyway? Lame.

That being said, I still don't think Linux is desktop ready for the general users, but it is getting closer every year. Also, as Bob Dole said, us *nix guys don't exactly come cheap. Lucky for me, my company only allows MS on the internel network and not our customer network.

What the EU did and is continually doing is ****ing stupid. What difference does it make if Windows Media Player is installed or not? I don't get that at all. Second why should MS give out their code for free to its competitors? That is like asking Hershey to give out their chocolate recipe or GM giving out their car blueprints to Toyota.

dirk digler
03-25-2006, 10:20 PM
I haven't done anything to my FreeBSD/Postfix/Courier mail server in over a year including rebooting or patching. Well, except collect mail. I have a pretty little web interface that I add domains and user accounts with. I also have spam control and anti-virus built in. IMAPS, TLS, the whole 9 yards. All free. Betcha can't say that.

:)

My server also sits on the web with no firewall and has never been hacked in over 3 years. How 'bout them apples?

Nope Exchange ain't cheap but I am not paying for it. :)

The reason I love Exchange besides its great features and its integration with Outlook is the fact that as soon as the Secure Messaging and Feature Pack for Windows Mobile 5 is released I can right rid of all our BlackBerry's and that will save us over $15,000.

morphius
03-25-2006, 10:31 PM
What the EU did and is continually doing is ****ing stupid. What difference does it make if Windows Media Player is installed or not? I don't get that at all. Second why should MS give out their code for free to its competitors? That is like asking Hershey to give out their chocolate recipe or GM giving out their car blueprints to Toyota.
Well, it would be one thing if they just made the OS, but when you build a lot of aps that run on top of that OS it muddys the waters a lot. Sharing their OS code shouldn't hurt with companies making software to run on top of their OS, its not like they are being asked to give out the code to Office, media player, IE or their apps.

Guru
03-25-2006, 10:43 PM
Jeez, I hate torrents. They take friggin forever to download. Even with Broadband.

irishjayhawk
03-25-2006, 10:45 PM
Jeez, I hate torrents. They take friggin forever to download. Even with Broadband.
Exactly the opposite of my feelings...

Guru
03-25-2006, 10:46 PM
Exactly the opposite of my feelings...


Well I am glad you like them. Doesn't help my download though. :harumph:

conchshell
03-25-2006, 10:52 PM
I haven't done anything to my FreeBSD/Postfix/Courier mail server in over a year including rebooting or patching. Well, except collect mail. I have a pretty little web interface that I add domains and user accounts with. I also have spam control and anti-virus built in. IMAPS, TLS, the whole 9 yards. All free. Betcha can't say that.

:)

My server also sits on the web with no firewall and has never been hacked in over 3 years. How 'bout them apples?

just to be nitpicking but FreeBSD ain't linux. And yeah, FreeBSD rocks.

conchshell
03-25-2006, 10:57 PM
Well, it would be one thing if they just made the OS, but when you build a lot of aps that run on top of that OS it muddys the waters a lot. Sharing their OS code shouldn't hurt with companies making software to run on top of their OS, its not like they are being asked to give out the code to Office, media player, IE or their apps.

Hey, I use notepad and guess what, is textpad.com going to sue ms for that? What about the browser. Where exactly does the differentiation between an application and an os start? And if a modern os isn't supposed to include a media player, who the hell in the world buys it? Wait, that's right, nobody in EU is buying Windows-N (N for No media player)

Sorry, EU didn't ask ms for code. Nobody could have done that. They are asking for documentation to the protocols so that the competitors can have access to the same product MS has. And for some weird reason (xenophobia perhaps), they pick on whatever ms has produced.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 11:04 PM
just to be nitpicking but FreeBSD ain't linux. And yeah, FreeBSD rocks.
I run FreeBSD on all my servers, but hardware device driver support isn't as good as Linux, so I do use Linux on my desktops.

FreeBSD is f**king rock solid. I've never once had a FreeBSD server crash on me or be hacked. I never reboot them, hell half the time I forget they're out there.

conchshell
03-25-2006, 11:16 PM
I run FreeBSD on all my servers, but hardware device driver support isn't as good as Linux, so I do use Linux on my desktops.

FreeBSD is f**king rock solid. I've never once had a FreeBSD server crash on me or be hacked. I never reboot them, hell half the time I forget they're out there.

Ok, you run FreeBSD on your servers and Linux on your desktops. And this is because the driver support is not there. Here's a thought. The general public is happy to use windows which comes with support for whatever they want to run. how does that sound?

morphius
03-25-2006, 11:17 PM
Hey, I use notepad and guess what, is textpad.com going to sue ms for that? What about the browser. Where exactly does the differentiation between an application and an os start? And if a modern os isn't supposed to include a media player, who the hell in the world buys it? Wait, that's right, nobody in EU is buying Windows-N (N for No media player)

Sorry, EU didn't ask ms for code. Nobody could have done that. They are asking for documentation to the protocols so that the competitors can have access to the same product MS has. And for some weird reason (xenophobia perhaps), they pick on whatever ms has produced.
What does notpad have to do with anything? Makes as much sense as the Toyota comment earlier. MS has done enough unfair practices that they were bound to get caught out on something sooner or later, this one is odd, I agree, but to act like MS is some innocent comapny just being picked on is wrong as well. I mean we are talking about a company that would punish you if you put another browser on the desktop of the computer you were selling with their OS. Hey, and MS is always talking about interoperability, so sharing those protocols shouldn't bother them at all.

Did anyone catch the report that 60% of the code was being rewritten on Vista now because it wasn't working?

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 11:23 PM
Ok, you run FreeBSD on your servers and Linux on your desktops. And this is because the driver support is not there. Here's a thought. The general public is happy to use windows which comes with support for whatever they want to run. how does that sound?
Let's see, right now the one Windows machine I do have is hanging. Between 2 and 5 times every minute it hangs for about 2 tenths of a second. Can't figure out why, but I know it isn't hardware because when I boot the same machine into Linux it behaves fine. Reformatting it (my favorite "fix" for Windows) simply isn't an option. It's loaded up with MS branded software, so if the problem is an app it's their fault. The machine is a Dell D800, every driver I have installed came from Dell.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on the device issue. EVERYTHING I have works without any issues in Linux. Camcorders, PDAs, scanners, card readers, thumb drives, cd/dvd burners, wireless NICs, everything. I don't have a single piece of hardware that doesn't work in Linux. I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

morphius
03-25-2006, 11:37 PM
Simplex - What are some of the Apps you recommend using for media listening/watching in Linux?

Thanks!

ChiefsLV
03-25-2006, 11:38 PM
Funny, other then DX apps there's not one thing in your list that Linux hasn't been doing for the last year or two. Check the bottom of the post, it's me doing what you are so excited about in Windows Vista. Playing a game (UT), surfind CP, playing an MP3 which comes out of my indexed collection (including album covers, lyrics, song ratings, etc), with my multi-protocol IM client running, as well as my PIM. You don't see my USB flash drive and my other peripherals but you get the idea.


Probably not. If I wanted to play football I'd go play football.

.


Man them are some awesome graphics right there... U.T. for Linux, great stuff. Does it play Grand Theft Auto, Rainbow Six, FEAR, etc? Where are the lighting effects in the games? If I plug my ipod into it, will it show up immediately as a drive I can copy files to?

But more importantly, at the top of my list, does Linux have the aero glass effects that are coming out in Vista?, because it is really all about the eye candy with me, being the unskilled I.T. worker I am whose using Microsoft products.

morphius
03-25-2006, 11:41 PM
Man them are some awesome graphics right there... U.T. for Linux, great stuff. Does it play Grand Theft Auto, Rainbow Six, FEAR, etc? Where are the lighting effects in the games? If I plug my ipod into it, will it show up immediately as a drive I can copy files to?

But more importantly, at the top of my list, does Linux have the aero glass effects that are coming out in Vista?, because it is really all about the eye candy with me, being the unskilled I.T. worker I am whose using Microsoft products.
Linux has had transparent windows for years, if thats what you are talking about.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 11:42 PM
Simplex - What are some of the Apps you recommend using for media listening/watching in Linux?

Thanks!

I'll post my answer in the GeeksPlanet thread so that all Q&A is there:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3108608

conchshell
03-25-2006, 11:43 PM
What does notpad have to do with anything? Makes as much sense as the Toyota comment earlier. MS has done enough unfair practices that they were bound to get caught out on something sooner or later, this one is odd, I agree, but to act like MS is some innocent comapny just being picked on is wrong as well. I mean we are talking about a company that would punish you if you put another browser on the desktop of the computer you were selling with their OS. Hey, and MS is always talking about interoperability, so sharing those protocols shouldn't bother them at all.

Did anyone catch the report that 60% of the code was being rewritten on Vista now because it wasn't working?

notepad is an application built on top of the os. If a company shouldn't bundle an application with an os, does including notepad count?

MS isn't innocent, I agree. But the browser suit you talked about has been settled long ago. And I didn't see any anti-competitive behavior from them again. Also, people care about product quality. Netscape sucked compared to IE then and lost market share. Firefox is a better browser and ie is losing to it.

Vista build 5342 is ready and you can evaluate it if you are a beta tester. 60% of Vista code to be re-written is a myth and you lost your geek points with me. Try re-writing 10000 lines of code and you will know how hard it is. The complexity increases exponentially as your codebase increases and an OS like Vista with 5 years development time and a bazillion lines of code will simply not be ready.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 11:43 PM
Linux has had transparent windows for years, if thats what you are talking about.
Don't confuse him. He knows MS is an innovator.

conchshell
03-25-2006, 11:48 PM
Let's see, right now the one Windows machine I do have is hanging. Between 2 and 5 times every minute it hangs for about 2 tenths of a second. Can't figure out why, but I know it isn't hardware because when I boot the same machine into Linux it behaves fine. Reformatting it (my favorite "fix" for Windows) simply isn't an option. It's loaded up with MS branded software, so if the problem is an app it's their fault. The machine is a Dell D800, every driver I have installed came from Dell.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on the device issue. EVERYTHING I have works without any issues in Linux. Camcorders, PDAs, scanners, card readers, thumb drives, cd/dvd burners, wireless NICs, everything. I don't have a single piece of hardware that doesn't work in Linux. I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

I amn't going anywhere. From what you said, it looks like a PEBKAC error. Honestly, I have a hard time swallowing the Windows flawed on my machine but linux perfect argument. Considering that it's a windows laptop in the first place. makes you wonder

ChiefsLV
03-25-2006, 11:50 PM
Don't confuse him. He knows MS is an innovator.

From the screenshot of your Linux desktop, I could tell you had much more eyecandy than those Vista screenshots offered... :holdman:

Have another.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 11:52 PM
I amn't going anywhere. From what you said, it looks like a PEBKAC error. Honestly, I have a hard time swallowing the Windows flawed on my machine but linux perfect argument. Considering that it's a windows laptop in the first place. makes you wonder
ROFL

Yes, I'm causing Windows to gap and pause. Certainly I'm overloading the IO buffers with my superior typing and mouse moving skills.

Of course for some reason my skills errode in that inferior OS which explains why it can keep up without a problem.

Do you honestly buy the s**t you're selling here?

morphius
03-25-2006, 11:52 PM
notepad is an application built on top of the os. If a company shouldn't bundle an application with an os, does including notepad count?

MS isn't innocent, I agree. But the browser suit you talked about has been settled long ago. And I didn't see any anti-competitive behavior from them again. Also, people care about product quality. Netscape sucked compared to IE then and lost market share. Firefox is a better browser and ie is losing to it.

Vista build 5342 is ready and you can evaluate it if you are a beta tester. 60% of Vista code to be re-written is a myth and you lost your geek points with me. Try re-writing 10000 lines of code and you will know how hard it is. The complexity increases exponentially as your codebase increases and an OS like Vista with 5 years development time and a bazillion lines of code will simply not be ready.

I'm just not going to feel sorry for a company that continually screws with "standards" to try and make everyone conform to what they want and the way they do things. Hell, IE was gaining market share because it was free and on the desktop, not because it was better. Do you remember the first few versions? I remember rewriting web code 5 different ways to get it to work in IE, all of which worked in Netscape. They did improve, don't get me wrong, and netscape didn't, so in the end they won, but them being better doesn't explain the fact that they were gaining market share when they sucked ass.

The reason I asked about the 60% of the code, silly, was to see if anyone else had heard it as I had only seen it from one source and wanted to know how much of it was BS.

Simplex3
03-25-2006, 11:55 PM
From the screenshot of your Linux desktop, I could tell you had much more eyecandy than those Vista screenshots offered... :holdman:

Have another.
I do away with eye candy because it doesn't add to my ability to do work. I don't use wallpapers, either. Why have the machine be busy doing that crap when it doesn't do anything for me?

Please explain to the class what a giant, rotating, shiny glass button does that a square grey one doesn't.

conchshell
03-25-2006, 11:59 PM
ROFL

Yes, I'm causing Windows to gap and pause. Certainly I'm overloading the IO buffers with my superior typing and mouse moving skills.

Of course for some reason my skills errode in that inferior OS which explains why it can keep up without a problem.

Do you honestly buy the s**t you're selling here?

geez here we go again. Considering your story is true, it boils to this

You got a laptop with some version of windows on it.
Nothing but MS software and dell drivers for the machine
laptop runs perfect (you didn't have a problem in the warranty period which is 1 year per my estimate)
laptop suddenly causes problems after warranty/mysterious update to windows

hmmm... Can you also sell me a bridge in brooklyn?

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:01 AM
geez here we go again. Considering your story is true, it boils to this

You got a laptop with some version of windows on it.
Nothing but MS software and dell drivers for the machine
laptop runs perfect (you didn't have a problem in the warranty period which is 1 year per my estimate)
laptop suddenly causes problems after warranty/mysterious update to windows

hmmm... Can you also sell me a bridge in brooklyn?
I sit next to the windows guru's at work, I hear them make complaints about odd things often. Don't act so shocked that it should happen...

ChiefsLV
03-26-2006, 12:02 AM
I do away with eye candy because it doesn't add to my ability to do work. I don't use wallpapers, either. Why have the machine be busy doing that crap when it doesn't do anything for me?

Please explain to the class what a giant, rotating, shiny glass button does that a square grey one doesn't.

I'm trying to explain to myself why I'm having a stupid argument over operating systems when it's a Saturday night and I live in Vegas. I'm going out. I'll drink your fill.

Hasta

p.s. I would tell the class, for the same reason that people choose the IPOD over other mp3 players. It's simple, it's sexy, it sells.

Guru
03-26-2006, 12:05 AM
I'm trying to explain to myself why I'm having a stupid argument over operating systems when it's a Saturday night and I live in Vegas. I'm going out. I'll drink your fill.

Hasta

p.s. I would tell the class, for the same reason that people choose the IPOD over other mp3 players. It's simple, it's sexy, it sells.


IPOD is not worth the money they charge for it. Much like MS products.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 12:05 AM
geez here we go again. Considering your story is true, it boils to this

You got a laptop with some version of windows on it.
Nothing but MS software and dell drivers for the machine
laptop runs perfect (you didn't have a problem in the warranty period which is 1 year per my estimate)
laptop suddenly causes problems after warranty/mysterious update to windows

hmmm... Can you also sell me a bridge in brooklyn?
Huh? I don't think for a second that it's a hardware problem. I will say with reasonable assurity that it is in fact an software problem. Therefore the warranty would have nothing to do with this. It seems obvious there is some driver/patch/application/TSR that is abusing it's rights to system resources (CPU time, interrupts, IO requests, whatever). What I'm telling you is that several people who do Windows support for a living have looked at it and said "uhhh, I don't know". I get "try reinstalling Windows". Since that's not an option, I just live with my mouse jerking around, etc. It's annoying but it doesn't stop me from being able to use my computer.

The fact that I don't have this issue in Linux, on the very same hardware, with all of the same devices powered up, says very clearly that it is NOT a hardware problem. I think you're having focus issues here.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:05 AM
I sit next to the windows guru's at work, I hear them make complaints about odd things often. Don't act so shocked that it should happen...

A windows guru complains about quirks in windows. Wow... Sorry pal, you have been duped. May be they aren't guru's after all. Or may be they are just slackers who want to delegate the blame on somebody else. You know, dog ate my homework, etc... :-)

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 12:07 AM
I'm trying to explain to myself why I'm having a stupid argument over operating systems when it's a Saturday night and I live in Vegas. I'm going out. I'll drink your fill..
I'd love to go out but I have a customer that insists on using Windows and I'm sitting here waiting on it to do stuff. I can't do this crap during the week because I'll have to reboot several times. Man I love Windows. It's so easy and pretty.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 12:09 AM
A windows guru complains about quirks in windows. Wow... Sorry pal, you have been duped. May be they aren't guru's after all. Or may be they are just slackers who want to delegate the blame on somebody else. You know, dog ate my homework, etc... :-)
Man, you need to check the Kool-aid you're drinking. :shake:

I'm done with you.

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:10 AM
A windows guru complains about quirks in windows. Wow... Sorry pal, you have been duped. May be they aren't guru's after all. Or may be they are just slackers who want to delegate the blame on somebody else. You know, dog ate my homework, etc... :-)
Yeah, sure. Just pass some of the MS Koolaid...

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:11 AM
Man, you need to check the Kool-aid you're drinking. :shake:

I'm done with you.
Damn it! You beat me to it. I'm feeling like I'm talking to a "*nix" guy who says he knows everything about it.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 12:14 AM
Damn it! You beat me to it. I'm feeling like I'm talking to a "*nix" guy who says he knows everything about it.
Anyone who makes claims about any topic like this guy is knows very, very little. He's probably a relative industry noob who hasn't done anything hard or managed any real life production s**t yet. It's the only way in hell he hasn't had problems.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:14 AM
Huh? I don't think for a second that it's a hardware problem. I will say with reasonable assurity that it is in fact an software problem. Therefore the warranty would have nothing to do with this. It seems obvious there is some driver/patch/application/TSR that is abusing it's rights to system resources (CPU time, interrupts, IO requests, whatever). What I'm telling you is that several people who do Windows support for a living have looked at it and said "uhhh, I don't know". I get "try reinstalling Windows". Since that's not an option, I just live with my mouse jerking around, etc. It's annoying but it doesn't stop me from being able to use my computer.

The fact that I don't have this issue in Linux, on the very same hardware, with all of the same devices powered up, says very clearly that it is NOT a hardware problem. I think you're having focus issues here.

It doesn't matter if you have a software/hardware problem. Dell will fix it under warranty and your support people should have told you that. I know this personally. Couple of years ago, a dell machine I had brought had screen flickers. I call 'em up and a new one was dispatched to me immediately. No questions asked.

I do not have focus issues. to be clear, the issue I have is believing in your story. Did you do a simple web search with your problem description? any results showed up?

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:21 AM
Anyone who makes claims about any topic like this guy is knows very, very little. He's probably a relative industry noob who hasn't done anything hard or managed any real life production s**t yet. It's the only way in hell he hasn't had problems.

Thanks for the noob title. I shall quiver in fear about my future ...problems. I make my living coding enterprise database systems. What I don't do however is jumping on the cool bandwagon. Have you two stopped sucking each others yet?

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:24 AM
Thanks for the noob title. I shall quiver in fear about my future ...problems. I make my living coding enterprise database systems. What I don't do however is jumping on the cool bandwagon. Have you two stopped sucking each others yet?
Whew, I guess I should take my pointers from the DB coder over guys who actually admin the systems...

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:26 AM
I guess I should also add that the running line for a long time in the OS/HW administration line of work is that "all OS's suck".

Replacing the machine doesn't impress me, how about actually troubleshooting the issue and fixing it?

Guru
03-26-2006, 12:27 AM
Thanks for the noob title. I shall quiver in fear about my future ...problems. I make my living coding enterprise database systems. What I don't do however is jumping on the cool bandwagon. Have you two stopped sucking each others yet?

God forbid, some of us are looking for an alternative to Winblows.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:38 AM
Whew, I guess I should take my pointers from the DB coder over guys who actually admin the systems...

Right. And I guess I should take mine from a guy who believes a 60% code change in a release.

This is the problem with the "It's cool to hate MS, linux rocks crowd". I administer actual databases, I love nothing but unix for the Korn shell, batch processing and perl. I only use vi for my coding. But for the zillionth time, please don't give me the crap that it's ready for the desktop. I use Win2K as my desktop os and give me a valid reason as to why I should discard it. And since the actual thread was about Vista, a desktop OS, please get some perspective.

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:41 AM
Right. And I guess I should take mine from a guy who believes a 60% code change in a release.

This is the problem with the "It's cool to hate MS, linux rocks crowd". I administer actual databases, I love nothing but unix for the Korn shell, batch processing and perl. I only use vi for my coding. But for the zillionth time, please don't give me the crap that it's ready for the desktop. I use Win2K as my desktop os and give me a valid reason as to why I should discard it. And since the actual thread was about Vista, a desktop OS, please get some perspective.
Obviously you missed that it was a question, if you read it there was a nice little "?" at the end.

Also, if your reading comprehension didn't suck so bad you may have read that I said I didn't think it was there yet either, but keeps getting closer. F'n Christ.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:52 AM
The point is, if you were to believe a rumor of that magnitude, you are not into actual IT anyway.

Funy you keep believe that linux is getting closer. Let's see. Open office is a poor excuse for a software project. linux apps created in '96 don't work with the latest version of redhat. And there are a ton of distros to confuse the heck out of users and application developers (Ever wondered why there is no photoshop, quicken etc... on linux, this is why). The best project to have come out of OSS is firefox which also happens to be on Windows.

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:59 AM
The point is, if you were to believe a rumor of that magnitude, you are not into actual IT anyway.

Funy you keep believe that linux is getting closer. Let's see. Open office is a poor excuse for a software project. linux apps created in '96 don't work with the latest version of redhat. And there are a ton of distros to confuse the heck out of users and application developers (Ever wondered why there is no photoshop, quicken etc... on linux, this is why). The best project to have come out of OSS is firefox which also happens to be on Windows.
Damn dude, there is a reason I put a question mark, because there is no way that they could rewrite 60% of the code in time to get it out to everyone to release it on even the new schedule. I believe the article I read came out on Thursday so it was recent enough that I didn't even care to look any further then, "thats odd". But whatever you want to believe dude, ain't no sweat off my back.

I have a few things from back in 96 that don't run on XP, so I don't really get your point there. Of course we will not even talk about how MS has tried to make it so the newer versions of Office will not work with anything before the '97 version...

conchshell
03-26-2006, 01:14 AM
I have a few things from back in 96 that don't run on XP, so I don't really get your point there. Of course we will not even talk about how MS has tried to make it so the newer versions of Office will not work with anything before the '97 version...

That's evil and I hate that. But how does that make linux a better os? Coming to your point, I don't think it was an issue anyway. Aw c'mon, nobody pays for ms-office and you know it already

morphius
03-26-2006, 01:15 AM
That's evil and I hate that. But how does that make linux a better os? Coming to your point, I don't think it was an issue anyway. Aw c'mon, nobody pays for ms-office and you know it already
Did I say that it was a better desktop OS?

conchshell
03-26-2006, 01:22 AM
Did I say that it was a better desktop OS?

Well, I didn't write a better desktop os either. And aren't we talking about desktop os's anyway? I know I did

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 01:25 AM
Did I say that it was a better desktop OS?
I can't believe you're still arguing with a guy who claims to write enterprise apps for a living while advocating stealing the code developed by other developers.

morphius
03-26-2006, 01:25 AM
Well, I didn't write a better desktop os either. And aren't we talking about desktop os's anyway? I know I did
I feel we are going in circles, do you know the tango?

morphius
03-26-2006, 01:26 AM
I can't believe you're still arguing with a guy who claims to write enterprise apps for a living while advocating stealing the code developed by other developers.
I'm up at 1:30 in the morning watching a horrible Kung Fu parody movie, obviously I'm dealing with some bordom issue.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 01:27 AM
I can't believe you're still arguing with a guy who claims to write enterprise apps for a living while advocating stealing the code developed by other developers.

touche.

Logical
03-26-2006, 01:43 AM
You've bought the MS hype that you need Word, Excel, Outlook, etc. The truth is there are free applications out there that perform all the same functions. I haven't relied on a Windows server or desktop for anything in years, yet I still communicate with lots of Windows users and they have no idea I'm NOT on Windows. Today's Linux is no harder to install than Windows, can be made to look just like Windows, and will run better on much, much, MUCH cheaper hardware.

It's not a bold step. The Unix variants have all the tools, the only thing they're missing is you installing it.

It is not about compatability it is about business interoperability. Everyone has the microsoft applications so send things to each other is seamless. Microsoft owns for only that reason and will likely continue to do so far into the future. Business around the world has literally billions of sunk costs in the Microsoft engines of Word, Outlook, Excel and Powerpoint. That has to be overcome before MS loses its niche.

morphius
03-26-2006, 01:49 AM
It is not about compatability it is about business interoperability. Everyone has the microsoft applications so send things to each other is seamless. Microsoft owns for only that reason and will likely continue to do so far into the future. Business around the world has literally billions of sunk costs in the Microsoft engines of Word, Outlook, Excel and Powerpoint. That has to be overcome before MS loses its niche.
The interesting thing that is starting to pop up is that gov't agencies are wanting to switch to an open standard for documents so they don't have to worry about changes in the future. If MS is unable to buy off some gov't agencies then things could turn around in the next few years.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 01:50 AM
It is not about compatability it is about business interoperability. Everyone has the microsoft applications so send things to each other is seamless. Microsoft owns for only that reason and will likely continue to do so far into the future. Business around the world has literally billions of sunk costs in the Microsoft engines of Word, Outlook, Excel and Powerpoint. That has to be overcome before MS loses its niche.
OpenOffice can save and/or open any MS Office document, spreadsheet, powerpoint, etc. There are at least three email clients that will accept and send MS-style appointments. There are very, very few of those issues left. Right now it's about spreading the knowledge.

Logical
03-26-2006, 01:53 AM
The interesting thing that is starting to pop up is that gov't agencies are wanting to switch to an open standard for documents so they don't have to worry about changes in the future. If MS is unable to buy off some gov't agencies then things could turn around in the next few years.

Since the government literally prints its own money they will just throw money at translators if they really want ot accomplish it. However, that won't change the picture for commercial enterprises unless the government decides to distribute those translators. That goes against the whole free enterprise notion so completely that I just don't see it occuring. I can see the government going there own way but not commercial industry.

Logical
03-26-2006, 01:56 AM
OpenOffice can save and/or open any MS Office document, spreadsheet, powerpoint, etc. There are at least three email clients that will accept and send MS-style appointments. There are very, very few of those issues left. Right now it's about spreading the knowledge.You know more about it than me but I am the type of person making these decision for big companies. Your challenge and the challenge for others like you is overcoming the built in knowledge base that already exists on MS applications and the concerns (whether legitimate or not) about going with an alternative.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 01:59 AM
You know more about it than me but I am the type of person making these decision for big companies. Your challenge and the challenge for others like you is overcoming the built in knowledge base that already exists on MS applications and the concerns (whether legitimate or not) about going with an alternative.
I agree completely.

morphius
03-26-2006, 02:02 AM
Since the government literally prints its own money they will just throw money at translators if they really want ot accomplish it. However, that won't change the picture for commercial enterprises unless the government decides to distribute those translators. That goes against the whole free enterprise notion so completely that I just don't see it occuring. I can see the government going there own way but not commercial industry.
I guess the way I see it is this. There are already a lot of apps out there that are free and use a completely open standard, especially for documents, so the will look at those first. Plus the documents will have to be reasable by the public, as that is the idea.

I see it as if the gov't switches to Open Office for example, then a lot of conracting companies will switch, and there could be a lot of trickle down from there.

But its all a ways out, and MS would probably change things quickly if they started losing Office income from the gov't.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 02:11 AM
Your challenge and the challenge for others like you is overcoming the built in knowledge base that already exists on MS applications and the concerns (whether legitimate or not) about going with an alternative.
For your part be willing to listen when someone does begin talking about alternatives. I've known several IT managers who simply went through their day following the "nobody got fired for buying IBM" mentality.

Logical
03-26-2006, 02:22 AM
For your part be willing to listen when someone does begin talking about alternatives. I've known several IT managers who simply went through their day following the "nobody got fired for buying IBM" mentality.
I am always willing to listen, I am not actually in the IT department, but as a Program Manager the IT department comes to the Program Managers for input and recommendations. Between Engineers, Ops, Quality, finance, contracts and schedulers each Pgm Manager has somewhere between 10 and 250 people they are responsible for, as an example my contracts are worth about 100 million over a 4 year period and probably around 150 or so people work on them under my indirect control, what I decide has to be implemented on a medium level scale. The problem people have is the IT department is deciding for literally dozens of programs and therefore 1000s of employees. It is indeed a big risk and a hard case to make to convince all of us this is a safe choice to make when a huge change is contemplated. I think time will answer it, pretty much everyone views MS as an evil and a negative in many, many ways, it is just the Blue Screen of Death is a known vs. the vast unknowns of the alternatives.

Rausch
03-26-2006, 04:09 AM
You know more about it than me but I am the type of person making these decision for big companies. Your challenge and the challenge for others like you is overcoming the built in knowledge base that already exists on MS applications and the concerns (whether legitimate or not) about going with an alternative.

If you could get your hands on a (newer) cheap Apple box I think you'd enjoy toying with it.

dirk digler
03-26-2006, 10:42 AM
Ok I was wrong but MS did offer and the EU didn't want it. Good for them.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/25/tech/main1236935.shtml

Microsoft To Give EU Windows Code
(Page 1 of 2)

BRUSSELS, Belgium, Jan. 25, 2006
(AP)

Quote

"The source code is the ultimate documentation."
Brad Smith, Microsoft's chief counsel


(AP) Microsoft Corp. said Wednesday it will let competitors examine some of the blueprints to its flagship Windows operating system in response to a European Union antitrust ruling calling for greater openness.

Although Microsoft insists it had already complied in December by supplying up to 12,000 pages of documentation and offering rivals 500 hours, or about $100,000 worth, of free technical support apiece, it says it will license the Windows source code to address any lingering concerns that EU and U.S. regulatory officials may have.

Last month, an independent monitor nominated by Microsoft found that the documents already provided by the company were "totally unfit for its intended purpose."

The European Commission said it would study Microsoft's offer carefully once it had received the full details, adding that it looked forward to receiving by the Feb. 15 deadline Microsoft's reply to the complaints it made in December.

"The source code is the ultimate documentation," said Brad Smith, Microsoft's chief counsel. "It should have the answer to any questions that remain."

The technical information is important for competitors to make their software compatible with Windows servers. Software developers will have to pay for the right to inspect the source code and will be prohibited from publicly disseminating the information.

By contrast, the code for open-source platforms such as Linux is publicly available without charge.

Several countries, including Brazil, China, France, Germany, Japan and South Korea have been actively moving toward open-source alternatives like Linux, and Microsoft has been under increased pressure to make its proprietary code available for inspection.

Microsoft has launched a number of efforts to give governments and certain private groups access to some source code. Wednesday's announcement extends this for the first time to more than 20 companies who currently license Microsoft software protocols under an EU program.

Microsoft will now share what it says is a "pretty significant" chunk of its Windows workgroup server operating system and desktop software code governing communications between servers. Smith said there were no plans to publish every line of the entire Windows source code.


(AP)
In March 2004, the EU levied a record $613 million fine against Microsoft.

It also ordered the company to share code with rivals and offer a version of Windows without the Media Player software for what the court saw as an abuse of the company's dominant position in the industry.

Last month, the European Commission threatened to fine Microsoft up to $2.36 million a day, retroactive to Dec. 15, saying the software giant was proving intransigent about sharing data with competitors.

Wednesday's "bold stroke" by Microsoft is designed "to put that issue to rest," Smith said.

Microsoft, based in Redmond, Washington, is appealing the ruling and the case will be heard in late April by the European Court of First Instance, the EU's second-highest court.

Smith told a news conference he was "confident" of winning the case, saying the world had moved on since the EU opened its antitrust investigation eight years ago. He cited the popularity of Apple Computer Inc.'s iPod music player and its iTunes music software.

"If anything it is clear that there are more opportunities for competitors today than there were a few years ago," he said.

The EU repeated its complaints that Microsoft was not providing enough information to let rivals develop server software that works smoothly with Windows PCs and servers.

"The Commission sent the statement of objections because of Microsoft's failure to disclose complete and accurate interface documentation to allow non-Microsoft workgroup servers to achieve full interoperability with Windows PCs and servers, despite its obligation to do so under the terms of the Commission's March 2004 decision that Microsoft was abusing its dominant market position," it said.

EU spokesman Jonathan Todd noted that the U.S. Department of Justice was also claiming that Microsoft was failing to provide the technical information asked for in a DOJ settlement.

dirk digler
03-26-2006, 10:50 AM
The interesting thing that is starting to pop up is that gov't agencies are wanting to switch to an open standard for documents so they don't have to worry about changes in the future. If MS is unable to buy off some gov't agencies then things could turn around in the next few years.

XML

conchshell
03-26-2006, 10:51 AM
dark digler, the news is old. ms has put the source code available under a highly restrictive license. EU has refused to accept the source code and they want documentation to the protocols only.

dirk digler
03-26-2006, 10:54 AM
dark digler, the news is old. ms has put the source code available under a highly restrictive license. EU has refused to accept the source code and they want documentation to the protocols only.

Interesting this is just from January of this year.

dirk digler
03-26-2006, 11:00 AM
Microsoft's EU offer a "poisoned honeypot": rivals
Tue Mar 7, 2006 4:43 PM GMT163
Printer Friendly | Email Article | RSS


By David Lawsky

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp. has set out a "poisoned honeypot" by offering to open source code in its antitrust case, a rival said in a confidential filing to the European Commission, which it opened on Tuesday.

The Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) and software group Samba followed the lead of Microsoft by opening up confidential filings to the European Commission.

The FSFE/Samba filing responded to a Commission questionnaire seeking industry comment on Microsoft's proposal to open up its confidential "source code" for those who licence it server software.

Microsoft has said its proposal would solve problems of much of the industry, but said it was never aimed at solving disputes with "open source" groups such as FSFE/Samba.

"The source code reference licence is a poisoned honeypot, from which free software operators shall stay away as much as possible," FSFE/Samba said in its filing.

Those who look at the code might inadvertently compose similar code, posing "a high risk of litigation on a trade secret infringement basis", FSFE/Samba said.

FSFE Samba opened its filings after Microsoft made its own filing available at www.microsoft.com/presspass/legalnews.mspx.

ON THE WEB

"Since they have done that we have even more of a motive to be public," said the FSFE/Samba attorney, Carlo Piana of Tamos Piana partners in Milan. The filings are available at: www.fsfeurope.org/projects/ms-vs-eu/ms-vs-eu.en.html.

Samba, an open source software maintained by a group of developers, is a suite of programs allowing non-Windows machines to interoperate with Windows servers and clients as if they were part of that network.

Late last year, the European Commission started proceedings to fine Microsoft up to 2 million euros ($2.4 million) a day for failing to carry out sanctions imposed in a antitrust decision.

The Commission found in 2004 Microsoft used its dominant position in the Windows operating system to damage rival makers of work group server software, used to run printers, password sign-ins and file access for small work groups.

Microsoft was fined 497 million euros and ordered to provide interconnections so competitors could get their server software to run as well as Microsoft's own with Windows desktop machines.

The Commission said Microsoft failed to properly document the interconnections and rivals could not use them. Microsoft offered in January to open portions of the secret source code for its servers, a solution neither sought nor welcomed by Commission experts.

The Free Software Foundation Europe and Samba rejected the idea. Microsoft would require FSFE/Samba to change its licence, which requires source code be openly distributed and freely available.

FSFE/Samba said complying with Microsoft's suggestion would violate its own copyright, which has the same level of protection as that of Microsoft.

FSFE/Samba also said it would be vulnerable to Microsoft if it took a more traditional approach, noting others who threatened Microsoft were "not out of the reach of what money can buy or of what other threats can achieve".

Microsoft has spent billions settling cases with rivals who accused it of unfair practices, forming partnerships with them.

FSFE/Samba said it would be a peculiar solution if the Commission required "a change in the business model of the competitor in the weakest position instead to press on the abusive one".

conchshell
03-26-2006, 11:07 AM
Interesting this is just from January of this year.

A lot has changed from jan. MS had to comply to the EU ruling (on EU's terms) by some date in February or pay a 2 million euro's fine/day. And eu keeps on conveniently refusing whatever ms has produced. Microsoft got so sick of it, they put up a case against the EU in court accusing them of colluding with IBM, Oracle etc... I am trying to find a link for you with the complete developments

Bob Dole
03-26-2006, 11:08 AM
Let's see, right now the one Windows machine I do have is hanging. Between 2 and 5 times every minute it hangs for about 2 tenths of a second. Can't figure out why, but I know it isn't hardware because when I boot the same machine into Linux it behaves fine. Reformatting it (my favorite "fix" for Windows) simply isn't an option. It's loaded up with MS branded software, so if the problem is an app it's their fault. The machine is a Dell D800, every driver I have installed came from Dell.



Funny. Bob Dole has the same laptop running XP sitting on his desktop at the office and doesn't have that problem.

To extend your line of reasoning one step further, it appears that the operator may be at the root of your problem. :rolleyes:

morphius
03-26-2006, 11:42 AM
Funny. Bob Dole has the same laptop running XP sitting on his desktop at the office and doesn't have that problem.

To extend your line of reasoning one step further, it appears that the operator may be at the root of your problem. :rolleyes:
By that logic, we had a machine in the building with a bad memory riser, so we should replace them all? Lord knows that two different machines couldn't have different issues.

Hell, I have a zip drive that used to work fine in 98, but plug it in to a 2000 box it slows it down as it querys it ever few minutes. Completely worthless with even a fresh install and all the right drivers.

SLAG
03-26-2006, 11:48 AM
Wait wait wait.... People were actually standing up for M$ in this thread?


:shake:

morphius
03-26-2006, 11:56 AM
XML
Just because they are using XML does not in any say that they are not using a lot of proprietary stuff in them, which they are and they don't release.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 11:59 AM
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:00 PM
I also believe I have read that the stuff that the documentation had a lot of pages in it, but pretty much said nothing useful in it.

As far as sharing the source code, I believe the license makes it so that no free software company, aka samba, can get their hands on it. Which goes completely against what the EU has been asking for from day one.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:07 PM
Wait wait wait.... People were actually standing up for M$ in this thread?


:shake:

Because some of us actually go with what works instead of what's cool. And M$ happens to produce a decent os for the majority.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:12 PM
Just because they are using XML does not in any say that they are not using a lot of proprietary stuff in them, which they are and they don't release.

I don't get it. What's wrong with using proprietary if they happen to work better? O-Office version of excel and word are so slow using the 'Open format'. Is 'Open' a mysterious word that automagically makes everything better? Apart from Firefox, please give me an example of an application done better by the open source guys.

SLAG
03-26-2006, 12:15 PM
Because some of us actually go with what works instead of what's cool. And M$ happens to produce a decent os for the majority.


You are mistaken and Misinformed.

I use M$ products becaue I have to...

We have been fed alot of propoaganda from Mr. Gates for a VERY LONG time!

its very sad... whats sadder yet is that because of how long this is been going on, Just now with Linux we see an vialbe consumer alternatve, never before has another product challenged M$ as Linux does now becaused of Gates' Strong armed tactics.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:20 PM
I also believe I have read that the stuff that the documentation had a lot of pages in it, but pretty much said nothing useful in it.

As far as sharing the source code, I believe the license makes it so that no free software company, aka samba, can get their hands on it. Which goes completely against what the EU has been asking for from day one.

It's just the EU tells everybody that there is nothing much useful in it. Why didn't they make it public what they have received from ms? What is holding them in doing so?

Free software companies can get their hands on the MS source code, provided that they sign an Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to not reveal the code. If company A wants to look at the code, they can get it, but all you need is to sign the NDA to not reveal it anywhere else. Its restrictive but MS is just protecting their asset (source code).

KC Jones
03-26-2006, 12:23 PM
Apart from Firefox, please give me an example of an application done better by the open source guys.

Azureus
Eclipse
Apache
Perl
PHP
Python
Subversion
Linux
MySQL

... and many many more

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:23 PM
I don't get it. What's wrong with using proprietary if they happen to work better? O-Office version of excel and word are so slow using the 'Open format'. Is 'Open' a mysterious word that automagically makes everything better? Apart from Firefox, please give me an example of an application done better by the open source guys.
Stay on the discussion path here, we are talking about the gov't wanting to switch to an open document format.

On another not, are you really trying to tell me that MS Office is fast?

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:28 PM
You are mistaken and Misinformed.

I use M$ products becaue I have to...

We have been fed alot of propoaganda from Mr. Gates for a VERY LONG time!

its very sad... whats sadder yet is that because of how long this is been going on, Just now with Linux we see an vialbe consumer alternatve, never before has another product challenged M$ as Linux does now becaused of Gates' Strong armed tactics.

I am a power user with computers and have a good understanding of unix, linux etc... No one forced me to use Windows in my home. I use it because I like it. Now, what strong armed tactics did Gates use to keep me doing that? Sure, there is marketing propoganda by ms. Who cares? Win2K works for me and I didn't upgrade to XP.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:37 PM
Azureus
Eclipse
Apache
Perl
PHP
Python
Subversion
Linux
MySQL

... and many many more

Azureus: I take it you never used uTorrent
Eclipse: It's good but Visual Studio owns.
Apache: You got me here
Perl - and here
PHP - but please take this away. you already said perl
Python - ditto
Subversion - please wake me up when its comparable to clearcase
Linux - yeah, a recycled version of unix. what has Linux done better than any other version of unix or heck, FreeBSD?
MySQL - puh-leaze, you could have said PostGRE SQL and I would have been a bit impressed. MySQL sucks, take it out.

Ok. you win on Apache and Perl. But please tell me why would the general public be impressed based on the strength of a web server and a scripting language.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:40 PM
Stay on the discussion path here, we are talking about the gov't wanting to switch to an open document format.

On another not, are you really trying to tell me that MS Office is fast?

Yep. have you ever tried to compare Open office and MS office? O-Office is a pathetic excuse for a software project. Make no mistake, if it was even borderline decent, MS office would have been doomed.

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:43 PM
Stay on the discussion path here, we are talking about the gov't wanting to switch to an open document format.

On another not, are you really trying to tell me that MS Office is fast?
okay, just installed slow Open Office and both Word and Open Office Writer started up in the same amount of time and excel opened about 3 seconds faster, ooooooh.

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:46 PM
Yep. have you ever tried to compare Open office and MS office? O-Office is a pathetic excuse for a software project. Make no mistake, if it was even borderline decent, MS office would have been doomed.
For most home users I bet they could get along just fine with Open Office, and I doubt the same couldn't be said of most business users.

Yes I have used them both, on my home machines I only use Open Office because I work to keep my machine as legal as possible.

KC Jones
03-26-2006, 12:50 PM
Open source is here to stay. I work for a fortune 500 company with more than 20K employees and revenues exceeding $8 billion. I can't even begin to tell you how much I hear about open source now from the CIO, VPs, Directors, etc. If you look around at the big players in enterprise software (IBM, Oracle, etc.) they all have strategies revolving around open source in place. The vendors are finding that if they want to sell support contracts for their 'value added' non standard additions, they have to spin those off as open source projects. Many vendors are adding open source projects to their support, maintenance, and PSO offerings because of the money to be made there.

...and yes, there is something magical about being open. Open standards ensure compatibility and independence in the enterprise. Open source ensures that *if* the vendor goes under, or you find yourself down a dead end path, you can allocate your own resources to make required changes to a software package or solution to keep your business running until you have the means to correct your IT path. It *can* also signifigantly speed up development and improve QA. This is more of a mixed bag though. For a popular open source project you get thousands of brilliant people around the world looking at the source code, making improvements, and pointing out flaws. For a not so popular project you can get a lot of spaghetti code - but this is another great thing about open source. Your staff can tell you pretty quickly from browsing the source and the project discussions if a project is crap or not. In the open source world, the strong survive and the shitty implementations or unecessary crap dies off quickly. In the proprietary world you don't know if something is ready for prime time until you buy it. Also, a vendor may keep pushing crap (with incremental upgrades at a high price) for years and years, and because you bought the crap in version X, you keep getting strung along until they get it right or until you pay the big penalty to switch.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 12:52 PM
okay, just installed slow Open Office and both Word and Open Office Writer started up in the same amount of time and excel opened about 3 seconds faster, ooooooh.

and this

Yes I have used them both, on my home machines I only use Open Office because I work to keep my machine as legal as possible.

hmmm. why did you install open office? is that your work machine by any chance?

morphius
03-26-2006, 12:53 PM
and this



hmmm. why did you install open office? is that your work machine by any chance?
I have a laptop from work and it was the only place I could do a valid side by side comparison.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 01:02 PM
Ok, here is a professional comparo. There is more in the link.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=120
In my last blog, where I did a high-level technical evaluation of Microsoft Office 2003 and OpenOffice.org 2.0, I showed that OpenOffice was a memory and resource hog. Contrary to popular belief (among Open Source advocates), Microsoft Office came out very lean and fast while OpenOffice.org Office Suite was just the opposite. Some couldn't accept the numbers and complained that the Task Manager numbers may be inaccurate and hiding memory usage. They demanded more proof, so here it is.

Oh and here is a comparison of formats from the same link:

Even when dealing with what is essentially the same data, OpenOffice Calc uses up 211 MBs of private unsharable memory while Excel uses up 34 MBs of private unsharable memory. The fact that OpenOffice.org Calc takes about 100 times the CPU time explains the kind of drastic results we were getting where Excel could open a file in 2 seconds while Calc would take almost 3 minutes. Most of that massive speed difference is due to XML being very processor intensive, but Microsoft still handles its own XML files about 7 times faster than OpenOffice.org handles OpenDocument ODS format and uses far less memory than OpenOffice.org.

morphius
03-26-2006, 01:15 PM
Ok, here is a professional comparo. There is more in the link.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=120
In my last blog, where I did a high-level technical evaluation of Microsoft Office 2003 and OpenOffice.org 2.0, I showed that OpenOffice was a memory and resource hog. Contrary to popular belief (among Open Source advocates), Microsoft Office came out very lean and fast while OpenOffice.org Office Suite was just the opposite. Some couldn't accept the numbers and complained that the Task Manager numbers may be inaccurate and hiding memory usage. They demanded more proof, so here it is.

Oh and here is a comparison of formats from the same link:

Even when dealing with what is essentially the same data, OpenOffice Calc uses up 211 MBs of private unsharable memory while Excel uses up 34 MBs of private unsharable memory. The fact that OpenOffice.org Calc takes about 100 times the CPU time explains the kind of drastic results we were getting where Excel could open a file in 2 seconds while Calc would take almost 3 minutes. Most of that massive speed difference is due to XML being very processor intensive, but Microsoft still handles its own XML files about 7 times faster than OpenOffice.org handles OpenDocument ODS format and uses far less memory than OpenOffice.org.
I'd be interested in a comparison on OSX, MS may still win the speed and memory battle, but it would be interesting to see. We are also still on OO 2, and up to what, Office 10?

conchshell
03-26-2006, 01:22 PM
I'd be interested in a comparison on OSX, MS may still win the speed and memory battle, but it would be interesting to see. We are also still on OO 2, and up to what, Office 10?

Wait what's with the sudden love for OSX? isn't OSX a proprietary OS too, why does it matter?

OO might be only version 2 but the code base has been inherited from star office which has been in development since '94. Is that a reasonable timeframe to compare?

morphius
03-26-2006, 01:27 PM
Wait what's with the sudden love for OSX? isn't OSX a proprietary OS too, why does it matter?

OO might be only version 2 but the code base has been inherited from star office which has been in development since '94. Is that a reasonable timeframe to compare?
I'm just interested in what the two apps look like on a level playing field, you know, where one of the companies doesn't own the OS code.

My expierence is that most things written to be mulitplatform will run slower then those that are platform specific.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 01:28 PM
I'd be interested in a comparison on OSX, MS may still win the speed and memory battle, but it would be interesting to see. We are also still on OO 2, and up to what, Office 10?
OpenOffice won't win a memory war with MS Office because OO relies on the Java framework. The MS guys aren't going to include all the supporting code that MS Office is relying on from the OS in their calculations, so you're fighting a losing battle.

All you need to know is that, for free, you can open, edit, and create documents the exact same way and in the exact same format as an application suite costing several hundred dollars.

morphius
03-26-2006, 01:34 PM
OpenOffice won't win a memory war with MS Office because OO relies on the Java framework. The MS guys aren't going to include all the supporting code that MS Office is relying on from the OS in their calculations, so you're fighting a losing battle.

All you need to know is that, for free, you can open, edit, and create documents the exact same way and in the exact same format as an application suite costing several hundred dollars.
I was just happy when OO got away from having their own desktop, that drove me nuts.

Simplex3
03-26-2006, 01:36 PM
I was just happy when OO got away from having their own desktop, that drove me nuts.
ROFL Yeah, that was one of the dumber moves ever made. A reach in every sense of the word.

conchshell
03-26-2006, 01:37 PM
I'm just interested in what the two apps look like on a level playing field, you know, where one of the companies doesn't own the OS code.

My expierence is that most things written to be mulitplatform will run slower then those that are platform specific.

Ah, the old "office runs faster because of secret api's theory" This has been refuted lot of times before. Also, IIRC office and ie on mac are a different code because of the difference in architecture. And ms-office performance on a mac is comparable to windows

conchshell
03-26-2006, 01:48 PM
OpenOffice won't win a memory war with MS Office because OO relies on the Java framework. The MS guys aren't going to include all the supporting code that MS Office is relying on from the OS in their calculations, so you're fighting a losing battle.

All you need to know is that, for free, you can open, edit, and create documents the exact same way and in the exact same format as an application suite costing several hundred dollars.

hmm. Parts of OO use java but most of the code base is in C++. If OO can't win in speed using a format they have proposed what good are they?

And your price point is moot. It's like me bitching about the price of a bmw being higher than my accord. Sure they are the same aren't they?

dirk digler
03-26-2006, 03:01 PM
For most home users I bet they could get along just fine with Open Office, and I doubt the same couldn't be said of most business users.

Yes I have used them both, on my home machines I only use Open Office because I work to keep my machine as legal as possible.

I agree. Our business users had a revolt when we made them start using StarOffice and then OO. Part of it was just the dislike of change but the biggest complaint was that OO really screwed with the users old documents formatting and it was just a pain in the ass to get a documents old formatting back to where it was originally.