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SLAG
04-13-2006, 11:50 PM
Since its Good Friday I wanted to start a thread to answer questions about the Catholic religion- Im not a Know it All- but I feel I can settle some common misconceptions, or we will end up at a point where we will have to agree to disagree.

This is NOT a thread to Push my Religion on you.. if you have a question I will try and Answer that is all.

Some of my Answers may be "Canned" but I would not have posted it if I did not believe that they were correct. If a Question arises that I cannot answer I will let you know and follow up with an Priest and provide you the answer.

Alot Skews the view people have of the relgion including- Catholics not following the Catechism as written or taught or Catholics not adhearing to Cannon Law- (What some call the chruch bureaucracy)- I tend to find that if you call your self "Christian" that after some common myths are disspelled that there is seldom that a Christian will disagree with. (once again not everyone is the same but I am making a general statement)


Enough of the Intro Lets hear some questions






:) http://www.kilkelly.com/pope.jpg

Dave Lane
04-13-2006, 11:54 PM
Who was the first "anti-Pope" and how many total have there been?

Dave

luv
04-13-2006, 11:57 PM
I will automatically agree to disagree. No disrespect intended to you. I think you're pretty cool. I just don't agree with Catholicism.

Anyway, I won't go into everything that I disagree with. If I think of any questions that I didn't ask last night, I'll post them.

Actually...first question.

What is Good Friday? Not what you do or don't do on that day, but what is that day?

SLAG
04-13-2006, 11:58 PM
Who was the first "anti-Pope" and how many total have there been?

Dave


without doing a google search- the term "Anti-Pope" is rather the names for the popes during periods in rome's/Vatican history that desecrated the church, at one point there was if I recall a Woman "pope" that worishped satan on an alter in the catacombs..
I also guess that I dont get the how the "Anti-Pope"s are affecting todays church Catechism.

If you would like I can do a google search and provide more of an Elaborate answer

SLAG
04-13-2006, 11:59 PM
I will automatically agree to disagree. No disrespect intended to you. I think you're pretty cool. I just don't agree with Catholicism.

Anyway, I won't go into everything that I disagree with. If I think of any questions that I didn't ask last night, I'll post them.

Actually...first question.

What is Good Friday? Not what you do or don't do on that day, but what is that day?


Good Friday is the day Jesus Died on the Cross


Edit- Followup-

Jesus Raises from the Dead 3 days later after going to Hell we call the day of his Rise from the Dead "Easter"

:)

luv
04-14-2006, 12:02 AM
What is the purpose of eating fish?

Rausch
04-14-2006, 12:03 AM
I understand that after the consecration of the wine it becomes the blood of Christ, but why does Christ's blood tase like $#it?

And why doesn't it tase good like.....pineapple or something?...

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:08 AM
What is the purpose of eating fish?




Like stated Earlier on Good Friday a True Catholic Fasts from food all day long.

Most will eat fish because they are told not to eat meat.

In Jesus' Time fish was a common food that everyone had access to in that region- the Jews dont eat Pork and Beef was not as widespread as it is now so it was more of a delicacy- the Idea is to be more humble basiclly.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:10 AM
I understand that after the consecration of the wine it becomes the blood of Christ, but why does Christ's blood tase like $#it?

And why doesn't it tase good like.....pineapple or something?...

upon recieveing the Sacrament of Holy Communion - we are accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior Every time- I dont think sipping Pina colodas would cut it

chefsos
04-14-2006, 12:10 AM
Q: Is it true that nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition?

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:11 AM
Q: Is it true that nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition?


In Short yes... Very true

Rausch
04-14-2006, 12:11 AM
upon recieveing the Sacrament of Holy Communion - we are accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior Every time- I dont think sipping Pina colodas would cut it


He was capable of turning water into wine, all I'm asking is that he turn horrid wine into something with flavor...

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:13 AM
He was capable of turning water into wine, all I'm asking is that he turn horrid wine into something with flavor...


Every mass that is Celebrated is comparable to celebrating Jewish Passover- we use Unleavend bread and drink the bottom of the barrel once again to humble our selfs.

luv
04-14-2006, 12:16 AM
Every mass that is Celebrated is comparable to celebrating Jewish Passover- we use Unleavend bread and drink the bottom of the barrel once again to humble our selfs.
Jesus' blood is "the bottom of the barrel"? And it's not unleavened bread. It's actually the real body of Christ.

alanm
04-14-2006, 12:17 AM
He was capable of turning water into wine, all I'm asking is that he turn horrid wine into something with flavor...
The church I've been to here uses a Rose on occasion. :)

alanm
04-14-2006, 12:19 AM
Every mass that is Celebrated is comparable to celebrating Jewish Passover- we use Unleavend bread and drink the bottom of the barrel once again to humble our selfs.
Your parish isn't kicking in enough money :)

Guru
04-14-2006, 12:22 AM
Where does The Rapture sit within the Catholic religion.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:22 AM
Jesus' blood is "the bottom of the barrel"? And it's not unleavened bread. It's actually the real body of Christ.


The items brought to the altar to be transsubstanciated are not to be Glamorus or Expensive- you will find Varriations but you have to stay in the inexpensive catagory- From what i heard though what church is serving up a nice aged Merlot for services

Rausch
04-14-2006, 12:24 AM
The items brought to the altar to be transsubstanciated are not to be Glamorus or Expensive- you will find Varriations but you have to stay in the inexpensive catagory- From what i heard though what church is serving up a nice aged Merlot for services


Well, my church used Boones and MD 20/20.

I know because we stole it, and frankly, God's blood deserves better...

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:26 AM
Where does The Rapture sit within the Catholic religion.


here is a great Link

http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp


Excert



Whatís the Catholic Position?


As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17ó"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:27 AM
Well, my church used Boones and MD 20/20.

I know because we stole it, and frankly, God's blood deserves better...


ROFL ROFL

SNR
04-14-2006, 12:53 AM
Is it true that all Catholics are jealous of Lutherans because we don't do that weird hand-wavy cross thingy after prayers, don't have non-meat eating days, and every month is another church potluck?

Oh, and we have good knees, too

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:55 AM
Is it true that all Catholics are jealous of Lutherans because we don't do that weird hand-wavy cross thingy after prayers, don't have non-meat eating days, and every month is another church potluck?

Oh, and we have good knees, too


Jealousy is not a path of any Christian.

:D

luv
04-14-2006, 12:56 AM
Jealousy is not a path of any Christian.

:D
Catholic does not necessarily equal Christian.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:58 AM
Catholic does not necessarily equal Christian.


Not all Christians are Catholic

But

All Catholics are Christian

luv
04-14-2006, 01:00 AM
Not all Christians are Catholic

But

All Catholics are Christian
Not true. I know several Catholics who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:03 AM
Not true. I know several Catholics who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour.


Great Misconception-


All True Catholics have Accpted Jesus Christ as their Savior-
They display it every time they take Holy Communion-


The term Christian covers ANYONE who belives that Jesus Christ was the Son of God

luv
04-14-2006, 01:06 AM
Great Misconception-


All True Catholics have Accpted Jesus Christ as their Savior-
They display it every time they take Holy Communion-


The term Christian covers ANYONE who belives that Jesus Christ was the Son of God
No. The term Christian means Christ-like. I can believe Jesus was the Son of God without accepting him as my personal Saviour.

Why do you confess your sins to man when the Bible states that "there is but one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ out Lord"? Because a Priest is holier than you? Closer to God? Without as much sin? No one sin is greater than another in the eyes of God.

blueballs
04-14-2006, 01:07 AM
shouldn't Saturday be the sabbath

Simplex3
04-14-2006, 01:07 AM
No. The term Christian means Christ-like. I can believe Jesus was the Son of God without accepting him as my personal Saviour.

Why do you confess your sins to man when the Bible states that "there is but one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ out Lord"? Because a Priest is holier than you? Closer to God? Without as much sin? No one sin is greater than another in the eyes of God.
S**t like this is why the new night crew sucks. :shake:

luv
04-14-2006, 01:10 AM
S**t like this is why the new night crew sucks. :shake:
Sorry, it's crap like this that make me hate Catholicism. They think they are the only ones who are right. Everyone else has "misconceptions". I know what my Bible says, and know what "parts" of the Bible Catholics claim as truth and which ones they choose to ignore because all they know is what their Priest tells them. He says he'll consult his priest. Try consulting a Bible.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:13 AM
No. The term Christian means Christ-like. I can believe Jesus was the Son of God without accepting him as my personal Saviour.

Why do you confess your sins to man when the Bible states that "there is but one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ out Lord"? Because a Priest is holier than you? Closer to God? Without as much sin? No one sin is greater than another in the eyes of God.


there is alot in this post I will try to cover what I can before i go to bed..



Chris∑tian
adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.


n.

1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.


Based on the Defintion of the word All Catholics are Christan


Now Regarding the Sacrament of Confession-

once again from catholic.com -
Excert

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21Ė23)........



Now Ones Sins are not mearly forgiven by Saying the Few Hail Mary's or whatever Pennance the Priest Issues- Sins are forgiven by Pennance and by Resolve never to commit that Sin again.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:14 AM
shouldn't Saturday be the sabbath

in the Catholic church if you attend Saturday Evening Mass it counts as If Sunday Mass

Simplex3
04-14-2006, 01:15 AM
Sorry, it's crap like this that make me hate Catholicism. They think they are the only ones who are right. Everyone else has "misconceptions". I know what my Bible says, and know what "parts" of the Bible Catholics claim as truth and which ones they choose to ignore because all they know is what their Priest tells them. He says he'll consult his priest. Try consulting a Bible.
ROFL

I was going more for the "serious discussions suck" approach.

As for Catholics, anybody that believes a newborn will go to hell if it dies without a priest performing some ritual(s) on it are f**king lunatics in my book. I'd also like to see an accounting of how much Vatican gold came from Jews during the Holocaust, Muslims during the Crusades, etc. etc.

As for religion in general, in my reading of the Bible organized religion as a whole is a fast track to hell. There shouldn't be anyone or anything between you and God but air and opportunity.

luv
04-14-2006, 01:15 AM
there is alot in this post I will try to cover what I can before i go to bed..



Based on the Defintion of the word All Catholics are Christan


Now Regarding the Sacrament of Confession-

once again from catholic.com -
Excert


Now Ones Sins are not mearly forgiven by Saying the Few Hail Mary's or whatever Pennance the Priest Issues- Sins are forgiven by Pennance and by Resolve never to commit that Sin again.
So what can you tell me that you learned from the Bible WITHOUT doing a Google search or quoting someone/something else?

luv
04-14-2006, 01:18 AM
ROFL

I was going more for the "serious discussions suck" approach.

As for Catholics, anybody that believes a newborn will go to hell if it dies without a priest performing some ritual(s) on it are f**king lunatics in my book. I'd also like to see an accounting of how much Vatican gold came from Jews during the Holocaust, Muslims during the Crusades, etc. etc.

As for religion in general, in my reading of the Bible organized religion as a whole is a fast track to hell. There shouldn't be anyone or anything between you and God but air and opportunity.
Exactly. Baptism is an outward SYMBOL of the transformation that has taken place within. It is not determinant of whether you enter Heaven or not. Baptizing babies is simply giving them a bath. You cannot be held accountable for your sins until you are at the point where you know what sin is and does. It's like punishing a child before they know what they've done is actually wrong.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:19 AM
Sorry, it's crap like this that make me hate Catholicism. They think they are the only ones who are right. Everyone else has "misconceptions". I know what my Bible says, and know what "parts" of the Bible Catholics claim as truth and which ones they choose to ignore because all they know is what their Priest tells them. He says he'll consult his priest. Try consulting a Bible.


All Catholic Teachings come straight from the Bible-

As we all Know the Bible does have many conflicting storys- such as two storys of creation-

Catholics Believe that you are not saved by Faith Alone (Sola Fide) Or by Scrptiure alone (Sola Scrpitura) you are also not Redeemed by your\ works alone (Sola Gratia)

It takes many parts to make a whole- if i read my bible all day long but never have faith or practice what the bible teachs in my actions am I better than a Non Beliver?

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:22 AM
ROFL

I was going more for the "serious discussions suck" approach.

As for Catholics, anybody that believes a newborn will go to hell if it dies without a priest performing some ritual(s) on it are f**king lunatics in my book. I'd also like to see an accounting of how much Vatican gold came from Jews during the Holocaust, Muslims during the Crusades, etc. etc.

As for religion in general, in my reading of the Bible organized religion as a whole is a fast track to hell. There shouldn't be anyone or anything between you and God but air and opportunity.

Once again-

Catholic Teaching does not state if a newborn is not Baptized when they die that they will go to hell-

it used to be belived that LIMBO was where they went but those teachings have been disspelled by the church for quite some time-

If a newborn dies they go to heaven-

Simplex3
04-14-2006, 01:22 AM
It takes many parts to make a whole- if i read my bible all day long but never have faith or practice what the bible teachs in my actions am I better than a Non Beliver?
If there is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell, I'm guessing that God will be able to sort through the people who led good lives and those who were using a church as a shield or a "what-if".

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:23 AM
So what can you tell me that you learned from the Bible WITHOUT doing a Google search or quoting someone/something else?


I post from other sources because i want the Information Relayed to be As Accurate as Possible-

Catholic.com is a great resource-

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:25 AM
If there is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell, I'm guessing that God will be able to sort through the people who led good lives and those who were using a church as a shield or a "what-if".


an African Tribesmen who has never heard of Jesus or God but lives his life as good as he can will not go to hell-


an African Tribesmen that Outwardly Rejects Jesus and God after being totally informed will have to answer some tough questions im guessing...

Simplex3
04-14-2006, 01:26 AM
Once again-

Catholic Teaching does not state if a newborn is not Baptized when they die that they will go to hell-

it used to be belived that LIMBO was where they went but those teachings have been disspelled by the church for quite some time-

If a newborn dies they go to heaven-
Ok, you don't see why this makes Catholics full of it?

Besides their total refusal to deal with new information or include any of it, they then change their mind about what crap does or does not mean. Either you know or you don't. If you change your mind about something then are you saying that all those people that lived the Catholic life and died before this new interpretation probably went to hell because some dudes in robes f**ked up here on Earth? Or are you saying that God bends his rules based on the edicts of those dudes in robes?

luv
04-14-2006, 01:32 AM
All Catholic Teachings come straight from the Bible-

As we all Know the Bible does have many conflicting storys- such as two storys of creation-

Catholics Believe that you are not saved by Faith Alone (Sola Fide) Or by Scrptiure alone (Sola Scrpitura) you are also not Redeemed by your\ works alone (Sola Gratia)

It takes many parts to make a whole- if i read my bible all day long but never have faith or practice what the bible teachs in my actions am I better than a Non Beliver?
If the Bible conflicts itself, why believe ANYTHING it says? If it is false in one part then that makes the whole fallible.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:33 AM
Ok, you don't see why this makes Catholics full of it?

Besides their total refusal to deal with new information or include any of it, they then change their mind about what crap does or does not mean. Either you know or you don't. If you change your mind about something then are you saying that all those people that lived the Catholic life and died before this new interpretation probably went to hell because some dudes in robes f**ked up here on Earth? Or are you saying that God bends his rules based on the edicts of those dudes in robes?


There is only one Main Dude that makes up the rules and has the final say on everything Catholic- The Pope-

The Pope is our Direct Link Back to Jesus-


its equak to saying that all the people that died from child berth because of not having the proper medical services there for them- of course with time- new Improvements and Science comes along to make great strides in a great many things- The Catholic church has made some HUGE mistakes- but as a Modern Relgion has improved great strides from many mistakes that it made- Spanish Inquisition, its stance on the Holocaust.. etc.- But just like anyone we all mature as we get older

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:34 AM
If the Bible conflicts itself, why believe ANYTHING it says? If it is false in one part then that makes the whole fallible.


We learn from its teachings- Most of the Old Testament needs to not be taken so Literal- we must learn the lessons of what God trys to reveal to us- Reflect on how he speaks personally to us through the good Book.

Simplex3
04-14-2006, 01:36 AM
There is only one Main Dude that makes up the rules and has the final say on everything Catholic- The Pope-

The Pope is our Direct Link Back to Jesus-
ROFL

The same Pope that has led the church through all of those attrocities? The same Pope that didn't have a bat-phone to Jesus until just after the Cardinals (other men) elected him? I don't buy it.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 01:37 AM
I will at last Leave- For More tidbits tonight check out

catholic.com

also for more talk right now there happens to be a catholic thread at the Mane right now too-


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=40736


sirhcyennek81 Knows what hes talking about over there

pr_capone
04-14-2006, 03:49 AM
So what can you tell me that you learned from the Bible WITHOUT doing a Google search or quoting someone/something else?

Your comments sound eerily familiar....

What can you tell us other than what the Watchtower, the Awake, any literature in general from the WTBTS, and your local Elder or MS tells you from the platform?

Or am I wrong?

Braincase
04-14-2006, 05:48 AM
When I converted to Catholicism, I had one hard and fast belief, and that actually has roots in Judaism, that belief being that the righteous of all nations will be seatedat the hand of the Father. Part of my reason for this belief is the BS I had heard from some churches wherein they belief that only the people that belong to their church and worship their way will be allowed into heaven.

I've known alot of truly good people, whether Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim, and I won't support any faith that says that those folks can't get into heaven because of their family's choices to bring them up in a faith other than my own.

I told my parish priest this before I converted, and told me he didn't have a problem with it. Some time later, a story was on the internet about the Pope (JPII) saying effectively the same thing.

So, if you have a problem with Catholics, fine. We're not perfect... but we're a damn sight better than some of the cults that are out there.

Cochise
04-14-2006, 06:21 AM
How come when I go into a Catholic church there are no Bibles lying around? In other churches they are in all the pews and stuff.

Braincase
04-14-2006, 06:27 AM
How come when I go into a Catholic church there are no Bibles lying around? In other churches they are in all the pews and stuff.

Lay ministry was something that came about primarily through Protestant sects, and in my case, I learned about it as part of the Methodist tradition.

Alot of that dates to the medievel church, that was a powerful thing that wouldn't allow a Bible to be translated from Latin.

It was also a means to avoid misinterpretation of the Bible, but we can see today, that that's not slowing anybody down. Some folks can't distinguish between the literal and the figurative.

chief52
04-14-2006, 06:37 AM
Sorry, it's crap like this that make me hate Catholicism. They think they are the only ones who are right. Everyone else has "misconceptions". I know what my Bible says, and know what "parts" of the Bible Catholics claim as truth and which ones they choose to ignore because all they know is what their Priest tells them. He says he'll consult his priest. Try consulting a Bible.

Man...what a brain dead post. I hope you were drunk. How can you hate another's beliefs if it does not affect or hurt you in any way and brings good out of other??? Not saying that Catholicism is the greatest but it is ok to have varied views in my opinion. Your way or the highway, huh? I will sure as hell take the highway.

P.S. So you hate catholics because they think they are the only ones who are right? Damn them...we should all know that luv2rite is the only one who is right and has no misconceptions. I think your post is the definition of "misconception". Enjoy your Good Friday.

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 06:39 AM
All I know is that I just found out my "Steak and Eggís" breakfast just turned into "toast & Coffee" and thatís gonna be about it till fish for supper.:banghead:
I mean Jesus titís! I even slept in till 6:30am :cuss:

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 06:41 AM
Sorry, it's crap like this that make me hate Catholicism. They think they are the only ones who are right.

Sorry darlen, i'm a converted Catholic, after 30 odd years of Jehovah's Witness doctern.
Your statement ain't even close to being correct.:shake:

Bob Dole
04-14-2006, 06:41 AM
Q: Is it true that nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition?

Watch yourself!

http://i2.tinypic.com/vfjjnc.jpg

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 06:47 AM
Your comments sound eerily familiar....

What can you tell us other than what the Watchtower, the Awake, any literature in general from the WTBTS, and your local Elder or MS tells you from the platform?

Or am I wrong?

I ain't even going there :shake:
Any religion that can brain wash people enough to turn their backs on their children is one I can, and now am quite happy to be free of.
Do I hate the Witness's?
NO.
Just their misguided docterns which come from 12 men in Brooklyn NY.

Warrior5
04-14-2006, 06:48 AM
Kudos to you for having the intellectual courage to start this thread.

While I'm not a catholic, I certainly don't think catholics are "non-believers". What confuses me about some Catholic teachings is the apparent lack of scriptural foundation; many (not all!) appear to be based on man-made rules:

- baptism of infants (already discussed).
- confession (already discussed).
- praying to/through Mary.
- no meat on Fridays (symbolic of fasting? isn't fish "meat"?)
- Ash Wednesday.
- "Catholic-only" communion.
- rosary beads (a focusing tool?)
- prayers for the dead.

I'm in no way slinging darts at these practices; these are subjects I've brought up with many of my catholic friends. Their usual response is that these practices are "tradition"-based rather than purely scripture-based.

This is a healthy discussion; thanks for starting it.

Braincase
04-14-2006, 06:48 AM
Sorry darlen, i'm a converted Catholic, after 30 odd years of Jehovah's Witness doctern.
Your statement ain't even close to being correct.:shake:

I'd love to sit down and talk with you sometime. One of my areas of interest is comparitive theology - i.e., what the Cathilocs believe vs. Greek/Russian Orthodox vs. LDS vs Baptist vs JW vs Seventh Day Adventist vs Scientology vs Children of God vs Unitarian Universalist vs Heaven's Gate vs Hindu vs Muslim, (etc.)

And what's up with those Zoroastrians?

DeepSouth
04-14-2006, 07:15 AM
Not really about Catholics but I'll ask my stupid question here.

If the world's calendar is based on the death of Christ (2006 AD), then why isn't Easter always on January 3rd (three days after his death)?

chief52
04-14-2006, 07:18 AM
[QUOTE=Warrior5]- "Catholic-only" communion.
QUOTE]

I agree. I have been away from the church for a while. I went to a wedding the other day and the priest invited all to communion. Surprised the hell out of me. Made a point of inviting catholics and non catholics for communion or you could just come up for a blessing. I wonder if the priest was being a rebel?

Slag, can you answer that one for me? Thanks...

Braincase
04-14-2006, 07:19 AM
Not really about Catholics but I'll ask my stupid question here.

If the world's calendar is based on the death of Christ (2006 AD), then why isn't Easter always on January 3rd (three days after his death)?


Historically, Anno Domini translates to "The Year of Our Lord" and the attempt was made to make year 1 the first year Jesus walked the Earth. Needless to say, noone really knows for sure when Christ was born. The calendar is based on his birth, not the crucifixion.

Lzen
04-14-2006, 07:20 AM
No. The term Christian means Christ-like. I can believe Jesus was the Son of God without accepting him as my personal Saviour.

Why do you confess your sins to man when the Bible states that "there is but one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ out Lord"? Because a Priest is holier than you? Closer to God? Without as much sin? No one sin is greater than another in the eyes of God.

I disagree with the first part. But you're right about the second part. I was raised as a Catholic, but I left the religion for these reasons as well as several others.

DeepSouth
04-14-2006, 07:22 AM
Historically, Anno Domini translates to "The Year of Our Lord" and the attempt was made to make year 1 the first year Jesus walked the Earth. Needless to say, noone really knows for sure when Christ was born. The calendar is based on his birth, not the crucifixion.

I thought AD stood for "After Death" ?

Lzen
04-14-2006, 07:32 AM
I thought AD stood for "After Death" ?

That's a common mistake.

Lzen
04-14-2006, 07:33 AM
I ain't even going there :shake:
Any religion that can brain wash people enough to turn their backs on their children is one I can, and now am quite happy to be free of.
Do I hate the Witness's?
NO.
Just their misguided docterns which come from 12 men in Brooklyn NY.

Can you explain that a little further? I don't know much about JWs and I'm just curious about what you meant by that.

JBucc
04-14-2006, 07:34 AM
I thought AD stood for "After Death" ?If it did there would be 33 years that weren't accounted for

chagrin
04-14-2006, 07:37 AM
In Short yes... Very true

ROFL

Get off my wavelength, dude!

Not 5 minutes ago I yelled that out here at work, everyone thinks I'm crazy

pr_capone
04-14-2006, 07:37 AM
I ain't even going there :shake:
Any religion that can brain wash people enough to turn their backs on their children is one I can, and now am quite happy to be free of.
Do I hate the Witness's?
NO.
Just their misguided docterns which come from 12 men in Brooklyn NY.

Nice to know there are fellow ex-jw's on here as well.

I am the perfect example of your first statement, though since it all took place a few years ago, the parents have come around.

chagrin
04-14-2006, 07:42 AM
I'd love to sit down and talk with you sometime. One of my areas of interest is comparitive theology - i.e., what the Cathilocs believe vs. Greek/Russian Orthodox vs. LDS vs Baptist vs JW vs Seventh Day Adventist vs Scientology vs Children of God vs Unitarian Universalist vs Heaven's Gate vs Hindu vs Muslim, (etc.)

And what's up with those Zoroastrians?


Braincase,

this will help you on your quest for knowledge (http://www.religioustolerance.org)

Saulbadguy
04-14-2006, 07:46 AM
ROFL

I was going more for the "serious discussions suck" approach.

As for Catholics, anybody that believes a newborn will go to hell if it dies without a priest performing some ritual(s) on it are f**king lunatics in my book. I'd also like to see an accounting of how much Vatican gold came from Jews during the Holocaust, Muslims during the Crusades, etc. etc.

As for religion in general, in my reading of the Bible organized religion as a whole is a fast track to hell. There shouldn't be anyone or anything between you and God but air and opportunity.
The whole transubstantiation thing is pretty wacky too.

cdcox
04-14-2006, 07:48 AM
Kudos to you for having the intellectual courage to start this thread.

While I'm not a catholic, I certainly don't think catholics are "non-believers". What confuses me about some Catholic teachings is the apparent lack of scriptural foundation; many (not all!) appear to be based on man-made rules:

- baptism of infants (already discussed).
- confession (already discussed).
- praying to/through Mary.
- no meat on Fridays (symbolic of fasting? isn't fish "meat"?)
- Ash Wednesday.
- "Catholic-only" communion.
- rosary beads (a focusing tool?)
- prayers for the dead.

I'm in no way slinging darts at these practices; these are subjects I've brought up with many of my catholic friends. Their usual response is that these practices are "tradition"-based rather than purely scripture-based.

This is a healthy discussion; thanks for starting it.

W5: I'm Lutheran, but serveral of the things you mentioned are addressed in Scripture. Scripture can be difficult to interpret, so when in doubt, my church tends to follow interpretations that were adopted by the very early church (first 300-400 years), since their insight was a relatively few generations removed from the apostles and Jesus himself.

Infant Baptism:

Acts 2:
38 Then Peter said to them, ďRepent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.Ē

In Acts 16 and 18 entire households were baptized. In order to make the arguement that infants should not be baptized, you have to make the assumption that those households had no infants.

Infants are born in sin (Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me,") and in need of salvation. Baptism provides that salvation: 1 Peter 3: 21Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.

The early church baptized infants.

I'll cover "confession" and "catholic-only communion" in later posts.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 07:49 AM
Kudos to you for having the intellectual courage to start this thread.

While I'm not a catholic, I certainly don't think catholics are "non-believers". What confuses me about some Catholic teachings is the apparent lack of scriptural foundation; many (not all!) appear to be based on man-made rules:

- baptism of infants (already discussed).
- confession (already discussed).
- praying to/through Mary.
- no meat on Fridays (symbolic of fasting? isn't fish "meat"?)
- Ash Wednesday.
- "Catholic-only" communion.
- rosary beads (a focusing tool?)
- prayers for the dead.

I'm in no way slinging darts at these practices; these are subjects I've brought up with many of my catholic friends. Their usual response is that these practices are "tradition"-based rather than purely scripture-based.

This is a healthy discussion; thanks for starting it.

Thanks for your Kind words :D

Once again a TON of info requested in your post I will see what I can do for you.

1- The No Meat on Fridays had Been Discussed already as well:
Like stated Earlier on Good Friday a True Catholic Fasts from food all day long.

Most will eat fish because they are told not to eat meat.

In Jesus' Time fish was a common food that everyone had access to in that region- the Jews dont eat Pork and Beef was not as widespread as it is now so it was more of a delicacy- the Idea is to be more humble basiclly.

2-Praying to or Through Mary or Saints:

When we Pray with Holy Mother Mary or The Communion of Saints the term is called Intercessory Prayer- Basically we ask Mary or the Saints to place our prayer with God for Us. Just like you could Ask me or a Friend for a Favor- we know that Mary or the Saints Probably have a better Relationship with God than us- even though we strive everyday to make it better- we pray with them just as you could ask me or any friend for a favor if we had access to what you wanted to needed.

3- Ash Wednesday

Fat Tuesday and Ash Wednesdsay iis the start of the Lenten Season- 40 Days Before Easter in rememberance of Jesus's treck into the Desert for 40 day- in this time the church goes under a transformation - alot of the churchs Cover the Cruifix in the Parish as well as other symbols of Jesus' because during those 40 days he wasnt around- The Ashes are the ashes of the Palm from the Previous years Palm Sunday. Im not sure what else you want to know about ash wednesday.


I will come back and Finnish up with your other questions Shortly

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 07:56 AM
I'd love to sit down and talk with you sometime. One of my areas of interest is comparitive theology - i.e., what the Cathilocs believe vs. Greek/Russian Orthodox vs. LDS vs Baptist vs JW vs Seventh Day Adventist vs Scientology vs Children of God vs Unitarian Universalist vs Heaven's Gate vs Hindu vs Muslim, (etc.)

And what's up with those Zoroastrians?

Any time

I love an interesting conversation on religion.Over all view point/counter point.I donít go for "mud slinging" though.To me religion is what you believe.What you make it, and every one out there has fine qualities.The JWís were just not for me, some aspects of the Catholic church ainít my cup of tea either, but itís the path I chose to follow.

Braincase
04-14-2006, 08:00 AM
Any time

I love an interesting conversation on religion.Over all view point/counter point.I donít go for "mud slinging" though.To me religion is what you believe.What you make it, and every one out there has fine qualities.The JWís were just not for me, some aspects of the Catholic church ainít my cup of tea either, but itís the path I chose to follow.

I agree. As another convert, I'll never agree with some aspects of the Church... I always found it interesting that there are married priests - If an Episcopal (Anglican) priest is married, and chooses to convert, he can be a Catholic priest, but those that are raised Catholic cannot get married... that has always struck me as hypocritical.

morphius
04-14-2006, 08:02 AM
As far as the fish thing it is pretty much symbolic. My parents once went out to eat with a group from church, invluding the priest. While everyone else ordered Salmon, Lobster, etc, the Priest ordered a Hamburger to prove the point.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 08:04 AM
Once again- Catholic Only Communion-

Catholic.com Has the Asnwer that is Printed on the Missals in chruch that we use that is passed down by the USCCB-

Excert- LINK- http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp
The guidelines for receiving Communion, which are issued by the U.S. bishops and published in many missalettes, explain, "We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christís prayer for us Ďthat they may all be oneí (John 17:21).

"Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law. . . . "

Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not.

Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29Ė30).

Jilly
04-14-2006, 08:15 AM
Historically, Anno Domini translates to "The Year of Our Lord" and the attempt was made to make year 1 the first year Jesus walked the Earth. Needless to say, noone really knows for sure when Christ was born. The calendar is based on his birth, not the crucifixion.

This might hurt a little.....Easter falls where it falls based on the Lunar calendar. Constantine, wanting to make Christianity the main Roman religion, had to compete with the Roman Pagan religions already in place. Easter was placed on a Pagan festival, so that the two religions would combine and Christianity would gain more popularity.

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 08:17 AM
Can you explain that a little further? I don't know much about JWs and I'm just curious about what you meant by that.

The final rif with me was after 43 years of teaching peace love and forgiveness my parents actually turned their back on me completely when I left the "organization, married my wife and became a Catholic.
Their take on it was "if SHE became a witness all could be forgiven, if not I was absolutely "dead in their eyeís"

This is the last thing my mother ever said to me, via e-mail mind you.
"Sept 29, 2005.
Dear Jeffrey:
Iím sorry your sick, and sorry I canít be happy for you.
But this is the most insulting thing that has ever happened to our family.
But as long as your happy, then I guess thats all that matters.
You KNOW youíve given up any hope for life, score another win for Babylon the great."



Now on a witness standpoint, I canít blame her at all for her decision to "Stick with the faith" and follow her doctrine. Thats her right, and no one can argue with her about it.
Do I agree, HELL NO!
Do I like it, not a chance.
Will I oput up with it?
Fu@k NO, as far as Iím concerned that woman gave up the right to call me a son when she turned her back on me.
(***and just for the record no I didnít tell her JoAnn and I were expecting, although I did get word through the grape vine she sent her sympathyís over last weekends miscarriage.)

What I canít understand is why a woman who refuses to even acknowledge I am alive atm, would send me a wedding card with $500 in it ??? (which I wrote return to sender on the envelope and mailed it back.)

When I told her of my intent to become a Catholic her first response was to hang up the phone after saying "Please donít ever call me again, you know as an "apostate we can never speak to one another"".
Followed by an e-mail asking me to "Can we keep this quiet for a while".
I sent a wedding invitation it came back ripped in half with "do you enjoy making a mockery out of our family" written on the torn envelope it came in.

Why? Because 12 men who make up the "governing body" in Brooklyn New York say so, thats why!

My father left me a voice message which said "Until you come to your senses and straighten your life out by coming back to "the truth" your not welcome in my home."

But 3 weeks after the wedding he called my wife with a "very phony" "Gee Iím sorry I couldnít make it, I got hung up out in Vancouver, or Iíd have been there".
I know it was fake, my best manís father owns the trucking company he works for and told me he couldnít understand how a week prior to the wedding he watched my father ASK for a load that would take him "as far away from NL as you can get".

And why?
Why did all this happen?
Simple, for 40 odd years my parents have followed the JW way of life.
Theirs is a way that has NO GREY areas, like all JWís are "suposed to follow"
Itís the JW way or NO WAY at all.
If the WTBBS doesnít approve it, then neither can you.
END OF DISCUSSION.

Jilly
04-14-2006, 08:19 AM
I just spent 3 days at a monastery on a personal retreat....I'm not Catholic, but as a Protestant, we really have lost what meaning ritual has. Sometimes it's not so much the meaning behind the ritual - where it comes from, etc - but it's the ritual itself that carries the meaning. Bowing toward the altar, reminds us to be reverent in entering a sacred space. Kneeling toward where the Eucharist is housed, reminds us that Christ dwells in that Holy place. It's hard to understand as Protestants because we have removed ourselves from those rituals. There are times, as a Protestant, I would love to have confessions with a priest, not because I believe the priest has more power than me, but because sometimes, the resolution of sin is more powerful when confessed verbally and publically.
Slag - I applaud you for your efforts in this thread. I only wish others could be more open.

cdcox
04-14-2006, 08:19 AM
W5: Confession to a priest or pastor.

From Mark 16:

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The binding and loosing that Jesus it talking about is further defined in John (as Slag mentioned earlier): John 20:22-23: The Lord Jesus breathed on His disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

The office of apostle given to the disciples in this passage is what we recognize as the pastoral office today. The forgive and bind sins not by their own goodness or merit but only as ambassadors of Jesus. This is reflected in our liturgy when the pastor announces the fogriveness of sins:
"Upon this your confession, I, as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God to all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Hebrews describes the relationship between pastors and believers. Heb. 13:17, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you," They watch over your souls and must give an account to God.

Everywhere in the New Testament, a group of believers was formed into a church and a pastor installed to administer the forgiveness of sins.

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 08:20 AM
Nice to know there are fellow ex-jw's on here as well.

I am the perfect example of your first statement, though since it all took place a few years ago, the parents have come around.

Besides yourself, and me, there's 2 others I know of (If they chose to say who the are fine,) here at teh planet who have descided to ahh, "leave the flock".
I guess our "lights aren't getting ever brighter" anymore.:hmmm:

Cochise
04-14-2006, 08:22 AM
I just spent 3 days at a monastery on a personal retreat....I'm not Catholic, but as a Protestant, we really have lost what meaning ritual has. Sometimes it's not so much the meaning behind the ritual - where it comes from, etc - but it's the ritual itself that carries the meaning. Bowing toward the altar, reminds us to be reverent in entering a sacred space. Kneeling toward where the Eucharist is housed, reminds us that Christ dwells in that Holy place. It's hard to understand as Protestants because we have removed ourselves from those rituals. There are times, as a Protestant, I would love to have confessions with a priest, not because I believe the priest has more power than me, but because sometimes, the resolution of sin is more powerful when confessed verbally and publically.
Slag - I applaud you for your efforts in this thread. I only wish others could be more open.

Given this your username seems kind of ironic. I realize I have a plank in my eye here, I'm just saying is all.

RaiderH8r
04-14-2006, 08:22 AM
Good Friday is the day Jesus Died on the Cross


Edit- Followup-

Jesus Raises from the Dead 3 days later after going to Hell we call the day of his Rise from the Dead "Easter"

:)
I thought Easter was when Christ poked his head out of the cave and saw his shadow....3 more millenia until the apocalypse.

InChiefsHell
04-14-2006, 08:23 AM
As far as the fish thing it is pretty much symbolic. My parents once went out to eat with a group from church, invluding the priest. While everyone else ordered Salmon, Lobster, etc, the Priest ordered a Hamburger to prove the point.

Wow...um...that ain't exactly right for him. Unless he had a special dispensation from the Bishop, he should not have done that. Especially in his role as a Priest. If he has an allergy to fish or something, that's different. But to just disregard the Church and to do so in front of parishoners as an example is wrong. Sounds like one of these "new age" priests who are wrecking the church.

The whole fish thing started back in like the Middle ages, IIRC. People were charged to abstain from meat on Fridays...every Friday...as a way to sacrifice. It became a Lent only sacrifice I believe in the 60's after Vatican II. Why choose fish? Supposedly, they were to abstain from consuming any beast that walked the land, which pretty much meant you can eat fish and veggies. There also have been people saying it was done to help out the fishing industry...whatever.

That's the best I can remember. Lord knows I wouldn't want to cut and paste anything for accuracy...

Cochise
04-14-2006, 08:23 AM
Besides yourself, and me, there's 2 others I know of (If they chose to say who the are fine,) here at teh planet who have descided to ahh, "leave the flock".
I guess our "lights aren't getting ever brighter" anymore.:hmmm:

I was acquainted with a guy in college through a group project who didn't talk to his parents anymore because of something like that too... he joined some other denomination and they 'disfellowshipped' him.

I wondered, if you can speak to a heathen at work or whatever, or for the purposes of converting them, why can't you say a word to your own son?

Braincase
04-14-2006, 08:27 AM
This might hurt a little.....Easter falls where it falls based on the Lunar calendar. Constantine, wanting to make Christianity the main Roman religion, had to compete with the Roman Pagan religions already in place. Easter was placed on a Pagan festival, so that the two religions would combine and Christianity would gain more popularity.

Absolutely. Oester was a Pagan Holiday... where do you think that whole bunny rabbit thing came from? :hmmm:

I wasn't kidding about my hobby of comparitive theology... I've read a bunch of stuff from alot of different religions as part of my quest for the divine, and I chose to remain Christian, and as much as I recognize the flaws, I made a choice to go with the variant on Chritianity that has been around the longest. My personal beliefs will never jibe 100% with any faith, and I do differentiate between faith and religion. I put my faith in God. My interpretation of that is very personal, and would probably put off those that belief in a strict/literal interpretation of the Bible.

InChiefsHell
04-14-2006, 08:29 AM
I was acquainted with a guy in college through a group project who didn't talk to his parents anymore because of something like that too... he joined some other denomination and they 'disfellowshipped' him.

I wondered, if you can speak to a heathen at work or whatever, or for the purposes of converting them, why can't you say a word to your own son?

I used to work with a JW, and we "did battle" so to speak for 2 years before I finally got him to just stop, or I would challenge him so much that he would just change the subject. I still pray for him and all JWs...they are a good loyal people who believe some pretty whacked out stuff. They are not evil, just severely misguided.

cdcox
04-14-2006, 08:34 AM
Once again- Catholic Only Communion-

Catholic.com Has the Asnwer that is Printed on the Missals in chruch that we use that is passed down by the USCCB-

Excert- LINK- http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp


These are the passages that I was going to quote from Corinthians 10 to support communing only with those who share a common confession. I belong to a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church and we also practice closed communion. In the early church someone who was traveling had to have a letter from their pastor stating that they were a faithful member in good standing in order to commune at another congregation. The whole reason for the council of Nicea was to determine what beliefs were in the faith and what were not. These were summarized in the Nicene Creed. Not agreeing to the creed resulted in a breaking of communion fellowship. This is a long standing practice of the church.

MOhillbilly
04-14-2006, 08:40 AM
This might hurt a little.....Easter falls where it falls based on the Lunar calendar. Constantine, wanting to make Christianity the main Roman religion, had to compete with the Roman Pagan religions already in place. Easter was placed on a Pagan festival, so that the two religions would combine and Christianity would gain more popularity.

99% of Catholic and christian holidays and symbols are based on pagan rites and rituals.

Ester= Easter.

Norse pagans and such.

Jilly
04-14-2006, 08:47 AM
99% of Catholic and christian holidays and symbols are based on pagan rites and rituals.

Ester= Easter.

Norse pagans and such.

Yeah, I know. I just find it funny how that seems to shatters people's belief systems when they find that out!!!

SLAG
04-14-2006, 08:49 AM
Yeah, I know. I just find it funny how that seems to shatters people's belief systems when they find that out!!!

Nope..

even to celebrate the birth of jesus in December is Absurd but because the Pagan Holiday was Getting out of hand we Celebrate it then :(

DeepSouth
04-14-2006, 08:54 AM
I wasn't kidding about my hobby of comparitive theology... I've read a bunch of stuff from alot of different religions as part of my quest for the divine, and I chose to remain Christian, and as much as I recognize the flaws, I made a choice to go with the variant on Chritianity that has been around the longest.
Bet you had a lot of fun with the theory behind "The Divinci Code".

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 08:56 AM
Oh those silly catholics!

MOhillbilly
04-14-2006, 08:58 AM
Yeah, I know. I just find it funny how that seems to shatters people's belief systems when they find that out!!!


I dont think it shatters there belief system, im sure they understand the oldstyle rites.
Coming up in a catholic school you know something is up, you just have to search it out on your own. Doesnt make the catholics/christians any more or less good. Its just the politics.


at this point my soul is between norse heathenism and the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 09:13 AM
99% of Catholic and christian holidays and symbols are based on pagan rites and rituals.

Ester= Easter.

Norse pagans and such.



....by the claim that Easter is based on a pagan holiday; the "moving" of Jesus death to Good Friday is explained as the result of some unspecified but undoubtedly pagan cause.

All this is nonsense. Easter is not based on a pagan holiday but on a Jewish one, Passover. Easter originated as the first Sunday following Passover, when Jesus was crucified.

Neither, as some anti-Catholics claim, is the name Easter derived from the pagan goddess Ishtar. As checking the dictionary will reveal, Easter is derived from the Old English word east, which means precisely what it does today. Only a speaker of English or German (where the holiday is called Ostern) could fall for such a claim.

In virtually every other language, the name of Easter is derived from the Jewish word Pesach or "Passover." Thus in Greek the term for Easter is Pascha; in Latin the term is also Pascha. From there it passed into the Romance languages, and so in Spanish it is Pascua, in Italian Pasqua, in French Paques, and in Portugese Pascoa. It also passed into the non-Romance languages, such as the Germanic languages Dutch, where it is Pasen, and Danish, where it is Paaske.

If Easter is free of pagan origins....

Chief Chief
04-14-2006, 09:13 AM
Does Wall Street close down on Good Friday solely because if the market crashed on that day nobody could refer to it as Bad Friday?

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 09:19 AM
Yeah, I know. I just find it funny how that seems to shatters people's belief systems when they find that out!!!

Why? Can't God take something that is bad and make something good out of it? It doesn't shatter my belief systems at all. God can bring good out of evil - if not then there was no point in Christ's death and resurrection.

stevieray
04-14-2006, 09:25 AM
Why? Can't God take something that is bad and make something good out of it? It doesn't shatter my belief systems at all. God can bring good out of evil - if not then there was no point in Christ's death and resurrection.

:clap:

morphius
04-14-2006, 09:25 AM
Wow...um...that ain't exactly right for him. Unless he had a special dispensation from the Bishop, he should not have done that. Especially in his role as a Priest. If he has an allergy to fish or something, that's different. But to just disregard the Church and to do so in front of parishoners as an example is wrong. Sounds like one of these "new age" priests who are wrecking the church.

The whole fish thing started back in like the Middle ages, IIRC. People were charged to abstain from meat on Fridays...every Friday...as a way to sacrifice. It became a Lent only sacrifice I believe in the 60's after Vatican II. Why choose fish? Supposedly, they were to abstain from consuming any beast that walked the land, which pretty much meant you can eat fish and veggies. There also have been people saying it was done to help out the fishing industry...whatever.

That's the best I can remember. Lord knows I wouldn't want to cut and paste anything for accuracy...
The reason he did it was to show that it wasn't about the fish and using Lent as an excuse to buy expensive, great tasting fish, it was about giving up something.

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 09:27 AM
How come when I go into a Catholic church there are no Bibles lying around? In other churches they are in all the pews and stuff.

What you will find is the Missal. This book contains the bible readings for each day of the year (since Mass is held daily as well as Sundays). In a 3 year cycle, if a Catholic attends Mass regularly, we will go through the entire bible.

The Bible is there as well, the Priest reads from it during Mass and we are welcome to bring our own bibles, but the Missal has the readings from the bible for that day.

Jilly
04-14-2006, 09:30 AM
How the date of Easter is determined:

Easter Sunday falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after MAR-20, the nominal date of the Spring Equinox. Many sources incorrectly state that the starting date of the calculation is the actual day of the Equinox rather than the nominal date of MAR-20. Other sources use an incorrect reference date of MAR-21.

A little known fact is that the timing of the full moon is based upon the Metonic Cycle, a method of calculating the date of the full moon known to the ancient Greek astronomer Meton, who lived in the 5th century BCE. This calculation occasionally diverges from the actual astronomical data. 5 For example, in the year 2019, the date of Easter according to a precise astronomical calculation would be MAR-24. However, the Western Church will observe it on APR-21. 6

Easter Sunday in the West can fall on any date from March 23 to April 26th. The year-to-year sequence is so complicated that it takes 5.7 million years to repeat. Eastern Orthodox churches sometimes celebrate Easter on the same day as the rest of Christendom. However if that date does not follow Passover, then the Orthodox churches delay their Easter - sometimes by over a month.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 09:31 AM
FUN CATHOLIC FACT-

Good Friday is the Only Day of the Year No mass is Celebrated- Stations of the Cross/Way of the Cross Service is done and Communion is celebrated with pre Concecrated hosts

Saulbadguy
04-14-2006, 09:36 AM
Why? Can't God take something that is bad and make something good out of it? It doesn't shatter my belief systems at all. God can bring good out of evil - if not then there was no point in Christ's death and resurrection.
On a serious note, i've always thought it to be a generally bad thing to have a belief system.

That is why i've always disliked organized religion. It does not encourage critical thought, and lays out what you should and should not believe, not think.

I've always "thought" that having faith was enough. People can't challenge your thoughts, but they can always challenge your beliefs.

Rain Man
04-14-2006, 09:36 AM
I wasn't kidding about my hobby of comparitive theology... I've read a bunch of stuff from alot of different religions as part of my quest for the divine, and I chose to remain Christian, and as much as I recognize the flaws, I made a choice to go with the variant on Chritianity that has been around the longest. My personal beliefs will never jibe 100% with any faith, and I do differentiate between faith and religion. I put my faith in God. My interpretation of that is very personal, and would probably put off those that belief in a strict/literal interpretation of the Bible.


You obviously haven't really thought - REALLY THOUGHT - about Hinduism.

http://www.physics.carleton.ca/~watson/410_notes/History_of_Astronomy/Gifs/hindu3.gif

Saulbadguy
04-14-2006, 09:38 AM
You obviously haven't really thought - REALLY THOUGHT - about Hinduism.

http://www.physics.carleton.ca/~watson/410_notes/History_of_Astronomy/Gifs/hindu3.gif
Did you hear about the Jewish man who got married to the Hindu woman? He died shortly after the wedding, was re-incarnated in to a higher caste, and his mother STILL didn't approve!

Braincase
04-14-2006, 09:39 AM
You obviously haven't really thought - REALLY THOUGHT - about Hinduism.

http://www.physics.carleton.ca/~watson/410_notes/History_of_Astronomy/Gifs/hindu3.gif

Mess with me, and I'll force you to sit and listen to me recite "The Nam-Shub of Enki" and reset your brain.

MOhillbilly
04-14-2006, 09:40 AM
FUN CATHOLIC FACT-

Good Friday is the Only Day of the Year No mass is Celebrated- Stations of the Cross/Way of the Cross Service is done and Communion is celebrated with pre Concecrated hosts


I remember doing stations of the cross every friday through lent.

is this not correct?

stevieray
04-14-2006, 09:41 AM
On a serious note, i've always thought it to be a generally bad thing to have a belief system.

That is why i've always disliked organized religion. It does not encourage critical thought, and lays out what you should and should not believe, not think.

I've always "thought" that having faith was enough. People can't challenge your thoughts, but they can always challenge your beliefs.

Imo, without a belief system, there would be total chaos.

If not organized relgion, who carries the burden of helping those in need?

People's faith gets challenged daily.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 09:44 AM
I remember doing stations of the cross every friday through lent.

is this not correct?

You are correct..

but on Good Friday there is no Mass to go with the Stations

Jilly
04-14-2006, 10:06 AM
Imo, without a belief system, there would be total chaos.

If not organized relgion, who carries the burden of helping those in need?

People's faith gets challenged daily.

I was watching that Jeremy Pivon show on the travel channel (I know I'm a dork) where he went to India. And I cried. I was watching all these people on a pilgrimmage to a sacred temple in India and it made me just think how organized religion, or just spirituality in general drives people to a higher purpose. Granted, some people get completely distracted along the way, but it is such a beautiful thing that so much of humanity is looking for a reason to live or some meaning for life.

Warrior5
04-14-2006, 10:09 AM
Infant Baptism:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, ďRepent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.Ē

In Acts 16 and 18 entire households were baptized. In order to make the arguement that infants should not be baptized, you have to make the assumption that those households had no infants.

Infants are born in sin (Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me,") and in need of salvation. Baptism provides that salvation: 1 Peter 3: 21Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.

The early church baptized infants.

Thanks for the feedback.
ref Acts 2:38. Would you agree that an absolute prerequisite for baptism is sincere repentance? How can an infant repent?

ref Acts 16 & 18. Scripture does say entire households were baptized, but one doesn't have to assume those households were "infantless".

Yes, scripture emphatically iterates that all are born into sin. You are correct that "baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience". How does an infant "turn to God with a clear conscience" prior to his parents being able to "raise him up in the way he should go"?

If the actual baptism is what saves you, then every person who has ever been baptized is saved, even non-believers?

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 10:11 AM
My wife is converting from your church to Catholic tomorrow. I've tried to use the process she is going through to reconnect and educate myself on our beliefs. I don't agree with all of those of my church, but enough of them to know that is who I am.

When I attend her parents church, it is closed communion, and as a Catholic, I NEVER take communion in a non-Catholic church, as our beliefs in what it is are different. I'm never offended when I am asked not to, though I wouldn't anyway. There are times, as a Catholic, that you shouldn't take communion(divorce, living together before marraige etc). -this is one of my issues, as to me, a person committing a sin, is probably the most in need of holy communion.

What many don't know, is that any non-Catholic or Catholic who shouldn't really be taking communion, can go to the front, cross your arms on your chest and recieve a blessing.

I'm not one to take advantage of confession often, but I can tell you, that when I have(last time was before my wedding) that I felt a weight lifted off my chest.

I'll never be able to argue and quote scripture well enough to hold up with the bible thumpers. I'll also never indicate they're going to hell for taking a different path to God and I'll never knock on your door at 8am on a saturday to try to convince you that my way is better.

For all of the Talk about the "judgemental catholic", It doesn't seem to me to be the Catholics telling others they are going to hell or praying wrong.

These are the passages that I was going to quote from Corinthians 10 to support communing only with those who share a common confession. I belong to a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church and we also practice closed communion. In the early church someone who was traveling had to have a letter from their pastor stating that they were a faithful member in good standing in order to commune at another congregation. The whole reason for the council of Nicea was to determine what beliefs were in the faith and what were not. These were summarized in the Nicene Creed. Not agreeing to the creed resulted in a breaking of communion fellowship. This is a long standing practice of the church.

MOhillbilly
04-14-2006, 10:15 AM
You are correct..

but on Good Friday there is no Mass to go with the Stations


Why so much idol worship w/ the catholics?

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 10:17 AM
My wife is converting from your church to Catholic tomorrow. I've tried to use the process she is going through to reconnect and educate myself on our beliefs. I don't agree with all of those of my church, but enough of them to know that is who I am.

When I attend her parents church, it is closed communion, and as a Catholic, I NEVER take communion in a non-Catholic church, as our beliefs in what it is are different. I'm never offended when I am asked not to, though I wouldn't anyway. There are times, as a Catholic, that you shouldn't take communion(divorce, living together before marraige etc). -this is one of my issues, as to me, a person committing a sin, is probably the most in need of holy communion.

What many don't know, is that any non-Catholic or Catholic who shouldn't really be taking communion, can go to the front, cross your arms on your chest and recieve a blessing.

I'm not one to take advantage of confession often, but I can tell you, that when I have(last time was before my wedding) that I felt a weight lifted off my chest.

I'll never be able to argue and quote scripture well enough to hold up with the bible thumpers. I'll also never indicate they're going to hell for taking a different path to God and I'll never knock on your door at 8am on a saturday to try to convince you that my way is better.

For all of the Talk about the "judgemental catholic", It doesn't seem to me to be the Catholics telling others they are going to hell or praying wrong.

:clap:
Well stated.

JohnnyV13
04-14-2006, 10:17 AM
Slag...a "true" catholic fasts all day long? Sheesh..next you'll tell me a "true" catholic believes humane Vitae is good theology rather than a logical abomination.

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 10:19 AM
Why so much idol worship w/ the catholics?

We don't worship idols.

The statues in Churches are no different that pictures of family members in your own home. There is nothing mystical, magical, etc., about the statues in the Church. They are simply there to remind us of those who have gone before us and their lives are an example to us.

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 10:21 AM
Slag...a "true" catholic fasts all day long? Sheesh..next you'll tell me a "true" catholic believes humane Vitae is good theology rather than a logical abomination.

Humane Vitae was prophetic. Look at what our society has come to and then tell me Humane Vitae a logical abomination.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 10:22 AM
Why so much idol worship w/ the catholics?

another GREAT Misconception Thanks for Bringing it up-

Catholics DO NOT Worship Idols, We have Images and Statues of people who have had led great lifes, people who have tried to live like Jesus as closely as possible, People who are very close to the chruch,

Just as you would have a picture of your realitives in your home, your Friends and Family. Back in the day there was no 5MP digital Camera's Just Scupltors

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 10:23 AM
I'm not a biblical scholar by any means, and I'm not the most fervent of Catholics, but I'll take a stab.

I interpret the catholic belief on baptism to be, that this sacrament, washes away your original sin or any to that point in your life(if adult). You're still responsible for the sins committed in your life after that, which is where confession comes into the picture.

I think the part where as a Catholic, and a Lutheran from what I understand, partake in the "accept responsibilty to God, with clear concience and accept the church" is in the right of Confirmation.


Thanks for the feedback.
ref Acts 2:38. Would you agree that an absolute prerequisite for baptism is sincere repentance? How can an infant repent?

ref Acts 16 & 18. Scripture does say entire households were baptized, but one doesn't have to assume those households were "infantless".

Yes, scripture emphatically iterates that all are born into sin. You are correct that "baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience". How does an infant "turn to God with a clear conscience" prior to his parents being able to "raise him up in the way he should go"?

If the actual baptism is what saves you, then every person who has ever been baptized is saved, even non-believers?

Nzoner
04-14-2006, 10:38 AM
I have a question about giving up something for Lent.

I had an ex finace who one year gave up margaritas but put a calendar on the fridge with a big red circle around the day she could start drinking them again.

I realize you're giving up something for a period of time but if you're doing it for the right reason,to please God,I don't understand how it could please God if you're heart is yearning for the day when it'll once again be okay to partake.

I'm not saying all Catholics do this,just a few that I personally know.

MOhillbilly
04-14-2006, 10:39 AM
another GREAT Misconception Thanks for Bringing it up-

Catholics DO NOT Worship Idols, We have Images and Statues of people who have had led great lifes, people who have tried to live like Jesus as closely as possible, People who are very close to the chruch,

Just as you would have a picture of your realitives in your home, your Friends and Family. Back in the day there was no 5MP digital Camera's Just Scupltors

what about the baby jesus and the cross and the virgin mary statues and on and on. Not just w/ catholics but main stream christians in general.


When i was in about the 3rd grade a bishop of somekind came and visited our class.
In a locket around his neck he said he had a sliver of the cross jesus was executed on.
tell me im wrong but isnt that idol worship?

my theory is that the roman popery found it easier to convert the pagans w/ signs and symbols they could relate to in the context of there own rites and symbols.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 10:42 AM
Each person decides what he or she should give up for the 40 days of Lent(which don't count sundays).

If you give up something for those 40 days that is difficult, you're obviously going to have cravings. This year, I have given up Caffine soda. Its been tougher than I thought, and the headaches from the caffine were a wakeup call.

I'm craving a Pepsi pretty badly right now, but intend to try to make a marked curb in my intake.

I have a question about giving up something for Lent.

I had an ex finace who one year gave up margaritas but put a calendar on the fridge with a big red circle around the day she could start drinking them again.

I realize you're giving up something for a period of time but if you're doing it for the right reason,to please God,I don't understand how it could please God if you're heart is yearning for the day when it'll once again be okay to partake.

I'm not saying all Catholics do this,just a few that I personally know.

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 10:43 AM
what about the baby jesus and the cross and the virgin mary statues and on and on. Not just w/ catholics but main stream christians in general.


When i was in about the 3rd grade a bishop of somekind came and visited our class.
In a locket around his neck he said he had a sliver of the cross jesus was executed on.
tell me im wrong but isnt that idol worship?

my theory is that the roman popery found it easier to convert the pagans w/ signs and symbols they could relate to in the context of there own rites and symbols.

No. I wear a Sacred Heart of Jesus medal. It is blessed. I wear it because it reminds me daily of Jesus' love for us.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 10:43 AM
I have a question about giving up something for Lent.

I had an ex finace who one year gave up margaritas but put a calendar on the fridge with a big red circle around the day she could start drinking them again.

I realize you're giving up something for a period of time but if you're doing it for the right reason,to please God,I don't understand how it could please God if you're heart is yearning for the day when it'll once again be okay to partake.

I'm not saying all Catholics do this,just a few that I personally know.
Sad But True is what I file This under,

IMO, Most Catholics In the United States just go through the Motions rather than truely understand or Belive what they are doing- they dont learn the lesson with giving up something important.

On a Side Note
Damn that Vatican II - My perspective I am closer to Follwing the Baltimore Catechism and the Council of Trent over current Vatican II Teachings.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 10:44 AM
I'm sure they weren't actually invited to recieve holy communion, but some Priests want everyone to know they can come to the front and recieve a blessing...the same as for a child not old enough to recieve it, or a person abstaining because they're divorcing or something.

[QUOTE=Warrior5]- "Catholic-only" communion.
QUOTE]

I agree. I have been away from the church for a while. I went to a wedding the other day and the priest invited all to communion. Surprised the hell out of me. Made a point of inviting catholics and non catholics for communion or you could just come up for a blessing. I wonder if the priest was being a rebel?

Slag, can you answer that one for me? Thanks...

Rain Man
04-14-2006, 10:45 AM
Each person decides what he or she should give up for the 40 days of Lent(which don't count sundays).

If you give up something for those 40 days that is difficult, you're obviously going to have cravings. This year, I have given up Caffine soda. Its been tougher than I thought, and the headaches from the caffine were a wakeup call.

I'm craving a Pepsi pretty badly right now, but intend to try to make a marked curb in my intake.

So can you have soda - sweet, fizzy, quenching, flavor-filled soda - on Sundays, or does the fact that Sunday doesn't count mean only that you have to go longer without it?

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 10:51 AM
On Sunday, you can refrain from abstaining from the thing you've given up. Each person chooses what they give up, and at what level. Its your personal sacrifice/committment/fasting.....and its up to you what level you choose to follow it.

The other thing most Catholics do, or are asked to do, is take any money you don't spend on the item you give up, that you would have given up, and put it in a thing we call a rice bowl....which is really just a cardboard collection cup with a lid....and that money goes to feed starving Pigmys in Pigmyville. If you quit smoking for Lent...you'd put the equivilent amount to offerings.

On sunday, I could have a pepsi and the wife could have some chocolate, or whatever she has given up. I'm still drinking some soda, but things without caffine, and trying more water and juice than normal.

I really haven't, with a couple of exceptions, because I didn't want to get a caffine rush and deal with that again.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 10:58 AM
I agree. I have been away from the church for a while. I went to a wedding the other day and the priest invited all to communion. Surprised the hell out of me. Made a point of inviting catholics and non catholics for communion or you could just come up for a blessing. I wonder if the priest was being a rebel?

Slag, can you answer that one for me? Thanks...

If the preist Gave Communion to Non Catholics knowingly then he should be ex-communicated.I belive.

If he Just invited Non Catholics up to recieve a Blessing then I applaud his Efforts

joesomebody
04-14-2006, 11:01 AM
I am stationed in Utah, and had a visit from LDS missionaries last night. It's rather interesting stuff. I'm Methodist, but they are teaching me about prophets, and that there were actually Prophets on the North American continent before the Native Americans and that the Book of Mormon is actually the scriptures of these prophets of god pre-dating the Native Americans.

My question for Catholics is why all the pomp and circumstance, all the finery and riches in their churches.

The Jesus Christ I was taught to beleive in used nature as his chuch, his own holy grail was a "wooden vessal" why do the Catholics need churches made of gold? Couldn't that money be better spent on more world wide missions to spread the word?

Rain Man
04-14-2006, 11:05 AM
On Sunday, you can refrain from abstaining from the thing you've given up. Each person chooses what they give up, and at what level. Its your personal sacrifice/committment/fasting.....and its up to you what level you choose to follow it.

So on Sundays you abstain from abstaining. I never knew that.

InChiefsHell
04-14-2006, 11:09 AM
My question for Catholics is why all the pomp and circumstance, all the finery and riches in their churches.

The Jesus Christ I was taught to beleive in used nature as his chuch, his own holy grail was a "wooden vessal" why do the Catholics need churches made of gold? Couldn't that money be better spent on more world wide missions to spread the word?

A couple of things. ONe, a beautiful worship space is hardly just a Catholic thing. Heck, Ive been to a few mega-churches where the sound system alone probably costs more than the any item I've seen in my Catholic church. I don't begrudge them that, but I'm just saying.

I think it goes back to old testament, Soloman's Temple, etc. THe house of God is adorned with things that man has had to sacrifice to give. Or something to that effect. God can live happily anywhere though, I think. I don't really know that it makes a difference, but I'd guess it is coming from the OT.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 11:10 AM
My question for Catholics is why all the pomp and circumstance, all the finery and riches in their churches.
?

I don't know exactly why....but I can tell you that catholics definitely aren't the only ones who attend service in Fine buildings.

Have you seen the large churches on TV? drive by some of the congregations in KC and in Springfield....huge.


If you think the Mormons are worshiping in a dirt floor'd hut........hahahahahahahaha.

Warrior5
04-14-2006, 11:12 AM
I'm not a biblical scholar by any means, and I'm not the most fervent of Catholics, but I'll take a stab.

I interpret the catholic belief on baptism to be, that this sacrament, washes away your original sin or any to that point in your life(if adult). You're still responsible for the sins committed in your life after that, which is where confession comes into the picture.

I think the part where as a Catholic, and a Lutheran from what I understand, partake in the "accept responsibilty to God, with clear concience and accept the church" is in the right of Confirmation.

Thanks for the feedback, Iowanian.

Your interpretation of Catholic baptism is that it washes away original sin. Does that make Confirmation the saving act?

SLAG
04-14-2006, 11:14 AM
I am stationed in Utah, and had a visit from LDS missionaries last night. It's rather interesting stuff. I'm Methodist, but they are teaching me about prophets, and that there were actually Prophets on the North American continent before the Native Americans and that the Book of Mormon is actually the scriptures of these prophets of god pre-dating the Native Americans.

My question for Catholics is why all the pomp and circumstance, all the finery and riches in their churches.

The Jesus Christ I was taught to beleive in used nature as his chuch, his own holy grail was a "wooden vessal" why do the Catholics need churches made of gold? Couldn't that money be better spent on more world wide missions to spread the word?

Great Question..

Alot of it Stems from Tradition- I too Agree Chruchs should be more humble, but I love the High Alters of the old chruchs, From what I understand the reason the Chruch is Decorated is to Honor God with the Greatist stuff Avaiable to us at the time..

joesomebody
04-14-2006, 11:14 AM
A couple of things. ONe, a beautiful worship space is hardly just a Catholic thing. Heck, Ive been to a few mega-churches where the sound system alone probably costs more than the any item I've seen in my Catholic church. I don't begrudge them that, but I'm just saying.

I think it goes back to old testament, Soloman's Temple, etc. THe house of God is adorned with things that man has had to sacrifice to give. Or something to that effect. God can live happily anywhere though, I think. I don't really know that it makes a difference, but I'd guess it is coming from the OT.I'll give you that, there are exceptions to any rule, but from what I've seen Catholic churches are decked out like Donald Trumb's high rise apartment or a Sadaam Hussein Palace...

Just wondering why everything is gilded with gold, where as you go to most Methodist or Baptist churches are simple A-Frame house type buildings. Just a difference I've noted.

joesomebody
04-14-2006, 11:15 AM
I don't know exactly why....but I can tell you that catholics definitely aren't the only ones who attend service in Fine buildings.

Have you seen the large churches on TV? drive by some of the congregations in KC and in Springfield....huge.


If you think the Mormons are worshiping in a dirt floor'd hut........hahahahahahahaha.Oh I'm no Mormon, and there are Methodist churches with a ton of finery (I'm Methodist) I'm just saying in general. No offense met. I'm just trying to learn about the LDS faith, because all I know are outside stereo types.

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 11:16 AM
Just wondering why everything is gilded with gold, where as you go to most Methodist or Baptist churches are simple A-Frame house type buildings. Just a difference I've noted.

That's because Catholicism is LOADED.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Iowanian.

Your interpretation of Catholic baptism is that it washes away original sin. Does that make Confirmation the saving act?

I don't know exactly to tell the truth. These are my interpretations mind you...and the Church may officially have another answer.

I think of Confirmation more as...."Ok, I'm old enough to have made my own choice on belief in this church, and I now accept responsibilty for my own sin"....or something like that.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 11:21 AM
I think you'll find that while the Cathederals and very large churches are like that....the Average Catholic Church doesn't have a golden anything....Stained glass, more than likely, but many of them, especially in rural areas are pretty simple.

What denomination are the huge mega churches? In my town, the baptist and Methodist churches are by far the most elaborate...near Keokuk IA is a very large Mormon church that puts them both to shame, though you have to be a "card carrying member" to enter it.

Oh I'm no Mormon, and there are Methodist churches with a ton of finery (I'm Methodist) I'm just saying in general. No offense met. I'm just trying to learn about the LDS faith, because all I know are outside stereo types.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 11:23 AM
I don't know exactly to tell the truth. These are my interpretations mind you...and the Church may officially have another answer.

I think of Confirmation more as...."Ok, I'm old enough to have made my own choice on belief in this church, and I now accept responsibilty for my own sin"....or something like that.

You are Partially Correct, Not only with Confirmation do we accept Responsiblity for our own sin but everytime we celbrate Mass, and the Sacraments.

You are Baptized at birth From then on out every sacrament you do you profess your baptisim, for your first communion you recite your Baptisiaml promises, same with First Reconcialtion, yet again with Confirmation.

but you are 100% right that confirmation is when you as an ADULT make a choice on your Relgion.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 11:24 AM
I understood that as a given slag, but didn't word it very well. thanks for clearing that up.

StcChief
04-14-2006, 11:34 AM
I think you'll find that while the Cathederals and very large churches are like that....the Average Catholic Church doesn't have a golden anything....Stained glass, more than likely, but many of them, especially in rural areas are pretty simple.

What denomination are the huge mega churches? In my town, the baptist and Methodist churches are by far the most elaborate...near Keokuk IA is a very large Mormon church that puts them both to shame, though you have to be a "card carrying member" to enter it.

The big concrete bomb shelter on US40 (I-64) in W STL County has
a gated huge fence, Gold statue on top pointing and facing East.
Ugliest new building I ever saw.

They due have some eliberate Churches here, though not a small town.

BucEyedPea
04-14-2006, 11:37 AM
Whatís the Catholic Position?


missionary

Warrior5
04-14-2006, 11:38 AM
I don't know exactly to tell the truth. These are my interpretations mind you...and the Church may officially have another answer.

I think of Confirmation more as...."Ok, I'm old enough to have made my own choice on belief in this church, and I now accept responsibilty for my own sin"....or something like that.

Thanks. I'm just trying to better understand the Catholic church's doctrines on these topics.

The server seems to be acting up...

On Intercessory Prayer - I fully believe in the power of prayer, and having other people pray with/for us (we do it all the time here on the Planet). I still have a hard time with this concept in light of John 14:6.

Ash Wednesday / Lent - Are these scripturally founded, or Catholic traditions of remembrance?

Catholic-only Communion - thanks to all for the feedback concerning this. I understand what the Catholic position is, but simply don't agree with it.

Logical
04-14-2006, 11:54 AM
On a serious note, i've always thought it to be a generally bad thing to have a belief system.

That is why i've always disliked organized religion. It does not encourage critical thought, and lays out what you should and should not believe, not think.

I've always "thought" that having faith was enough. People can't challenge your thoughts, but they can always challenge your beliefs.Great response I agree completely, rep.

:clap::clap::clap:

joesomebody
04-14-2006, 12:13 PM
I think most of the HUGE MEGA churches are "Christian" the non-denominational type with the rock bands and sort of the born again christian type. I'm not sure, thats what I've always thought though.

Religion is a touchy subject so I think I'll just lurk in this thread from now on.

luv
04-14-2006, 12:16 PM
I think most of the HUGE MEGA churches are "Christian" the non-denominational type with the rock bands and sort of the born again christian type. I'm not sure, thats what I've always thought though.

Religion is a touchy subject so I think I'll just lurk in this thread from now on.
You definitely don't want to disagree with anyone in here.

cdcox
04-14-2006, 12:17 PM
I was out for a while to attend Good Friday Service.

Thanks for the feedback.
ref Acts 2:38. Would you agree that an absolute prerequisite for baptism is sincere repentance? How can an infant repent?

Repentence is important, but repentence won't help without faith that God will forgive sins. Those that have faith will be repentant, no? So if we focus on faith we can see the answer to this question.

My church teaches that faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithóand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God ó not by works, so that no one can boast.)

How does God give the gift of faith? Through hearing the word of God ( Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?) and the Sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper). These are the methods God uses to give faith.

God gives the faith that is required for baptism through the act of baptism itself and through hearing the word of God. For this reason, the congregation says the Apostle's Creed as a confession of faith on behalf of the infant as part of the baptismal rite (not required but a good and edifying practice). We see the creation of faith as a supernatural miracle of God rather than a rational process of parsing the words and conscously agreeing with them. So we baptize infants because of the faith they already have.

Remember John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb at the sound of Mary's voice. This is a clear example of faith by an not-yet-born infant.


ref Acts 16 & 18. Scripture does say entire households were baptized, but one doesn't have to assume those households were "infantless".


If the households had infants, then the natural reading of the text would say that they were baptized. If Paul baptized infants, that is good enough for me.


Yes, scripture emphatically iterates that all are born into sin. You are correct that "baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience". How does an infant "turn to God with a clear conscience" prior to his parents being able to "raise him up in the way he should go"?


Read the text closely again. It doesn't say "... turning to God with a clear consience because he was raised up in the way he should go." It says "... turning to God with a clear consience because Jesus Christ was raised from death." The clear consience comes from the action of God, not through human deed. We get tor turn to God with a clear consience as the result of our baptism giving us the faith in Jesus' resurection.


If the actual baptism is what saves you, then every person who has ever been baptized is saved, even non-believers?

Faith saves, but faith is given by God in His Word, in Baptism and in the Lord's Supper.

Biblical language is useful here. In John 3, Jesus equates baptism with birth. If I chid is born, he is alive. But if not fed and nurtured, the child will die. In the same way, baptism gives faith to the infant, but if that faith is not nurtured as the child grows, it is likely that faith will die. Or if the baptized person willfully turns from the faith when they are older, they are discarding the benefit of baptism (faith) and it will not save them.

Hope this helps you understand how many Christians believe that infant baptism is supported by scripture. You may not come to the same conclusion, but at least you can see why we think infant baptism is consistent with the Bible.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 12:18 PM
You definitely don't want to disagree with anyone in here.

There is Nothing wrong with Disagreeing... Once again this thread is just to answer questions... Not to Push or Aruge with anyone.

:)

luv
04-14-2006, 12:22 PM
I was out for a while to attend Good Friday Service.


FUN CATHOLIC FACT-

Good Friday is the Only Day of the Year No mass is Celebrated- Stations of the Cross/Way of the Cross Service is done and Communion is celebrated with pre Concecrated hosts

Now I'm confused.

Braincase
04-14-2006, 12:22 PM
If the subject of the service on any given day in Boston is the weight of the universe on God's shoulders, would that be called a Mass Mass Mass?

Braincase
04-14-2006, 12:23 PM
Now I'm confused.

What... just now?

luv
04-14-2006, 12:24 PM
What... just now?
No. I'm not going into everything though.

cdcox
04-14-2006, 12:25 PM
In the Lutheran church, confirmation is proceeded by a period of instruction in the basic doctrines of the faith. The ceremony of confirmation is understood to be a public confession of faith they have been taught.

Often, it also marks the time in which they are allowed to commune, since they have undergone instruction in doctrine and can state that they agree with the confession of the congregation. Communion fellowship is seen as fellowship in doctrine.

Instruction in doctrine and receiveing communion are the main things (commanded in scripture) the public confession of faith is secondary.

cdcox
04-14-2006, 12:28 PM
Now I'm confused.

I'm Lutheran, not Catholic. The Lord's Supper is not normally associated with Lutheran Good Friday services, but we did have it at the noon service I went to today. It will not be served at the evening service tonight.

Lutherans are more flexible in these things than Catholics.

luv
04-14-2006, 12:32 PM
I'm Lutheran, not Catholic. The Lord's Supper is not normally associated with Lutheran Good Friday services, but we did have it at the noon service I went to today. It will not be served at the evening service tonight.

Lutherans are more flexible in these things than Catholics.
I see. Thanks. I kinda figured that after reading post 155. My bad.

Warrior5
04-14-2006, 12:42 PM
You definitely don't want to disagree with anyone in here.

luv2rite, please relax. Why are you getting so upset? I've listed several Catholic doctrines in this thread that I don't agree with. I'm trying to understand the Catholic interpretation of Scripture in the application of their doctrine, so I can know where they're coming from, and so far it's been a non-Northern Ireland discussion.

Why so hostile?

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 01:11 PM
I'm Lutheran, not Catholic.

OK I KNEW cdcox was too smart to be catholic. :D

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 01:23 PM
She's hostile because she's an intollerant catholic hater. I'm guessing a raging baptist who thinks I'm going to hell.

chagrin
04-14-2006, 01:24 PM
Yeah, I know. I just find it funny how that seems to shatters people's belief systems when they find that out!!!


I'm always curious about this: Why is it "funny" that one's belief system would be "shattered" by something that you 'think' is unknown, like you're the first one to reveal that christmas, Jesus born in December, etc probably didn't happen like many believe, or are taught to believe?

Seriously people, you keep forgetting something. The bible is supposed to be the word and the truth. Christmas, etc was simply added on by "mankind"

I doubt as many people as you think believe that Jesus was born on December 25th, and as far as your statement that "we" have forgotten the importance of rituals is actually strange, considering that Mass on Easter, Midnight Mass, etc are all rituals.

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, I am just kinda observing.

chagrin
04-14-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Saulbadguy
I've always "thought" that having faith was enough.



It IS about Faith, good job dude. Who cares what people challenge, it's usually because they have none, or question their own faith

Warrior5
04-14-2006, 01:28 PM
Having massive problems with the server...


Repentence is important, but repentence won't help without faith that God will forgive sins. Those that have faith will be repentant, no? So if we focus on faith we can see the answer to this question.
very true

My church teaches that faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithóand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God ó not by works, so that no one can boast.)

How does God give the gift of faith? Through hearing the word of God ( Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?) and the Sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper).

My bible states Romans 10:14 exactly as you quoted here except for the addition of "and the Sacraments". This might be the source of doctrinal disagreement between Protestant and Catholic baptism.

God gives the faith that is required for baptism through the act of baptism itself and through hearing the word of God. So we baptize infants because of the faith they already have.
The faith required for baptism is given during the baptism itself?

Remember John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb at the sound of Mary's voice. This is a clear example of faith by an not-yet-born infant.
Won't argue with that one, but John the Baptist was special, to say the least!

If the households had infants, then the natural reading of the text would say that they were baptized. If Paul baptized infants, that is good enough for me.
We'll agree to disagree. Guess I don't read it "naturally".

Read the text closely again. It doesn't say "... turning to God with a clear consience because he was raised up in the way he should go." It says "... turning to God with a clear consience because Jesus Christ was raised from death." The clear consience comes from the action of God, not through human deed. We get to turn to God with a clear consience as the result of our baptism giving us the faith in Jesus' resurection.
I realize that's not what it says...my point was that an infant could not turn to God before knowing God through hearing the Word.

Faith saves, but faith is given by God in His Word, in Baptism and in the Lord's Supper.
Through faith and His Word, yes. We disagree about through baptism and the Lord's Supper.

In the same way, baptism gives faith to the infant, but if that faith is not nurtured as the child grows, it is likely that faith will die. Or if the baptized person willfully turns from the faith when they are older, they are discarding the benefit of baptism (faith) and it will not save them.
[b]If true faith is given to the child at baptism, how can it die? More importantly, how can the person willingly turn from that faith?

Hope this helps you understand how many Christians believe that infant baptism is supported by scripture. You may not come to the same conclusion, but at least you can see why we think infant baptism is consistent with the Bible.

Thanks for the insights, cdcox. Gotta go now, but may stop in later. Have a blessed weekend and celebration of the Resurrection!

luv
04-14-2006, 01:46 PM
She's hostile because she's an intollerant catholic hater. I'm guessing a raging baptist who thinks I'm going to hell.
I'm intolerant because I disagree with the Catholic religion? I'm not the one starting a thread based on my faith. I stated what I believed about salvation and what it takes to be a Christian, and I got told I was under some great misconception. I'm getting called hostile when I'm not. I'm being told I'm a judgemental raging baptist. Baptist eat all the time. I'm dieting, so I couldn't possibly fit in.

I think you don't like fat chicks. :p Or maybe chicks with their own opinions.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 01:49 PM
No. Reread your posts on the subject. thats why I find your posts Intollerant. You didn't start the thread, but you've made sure to let the starter know that his faith is wrong, and you're right.

Sorry, it's crap like this that make me hate Catholicism. They think they are the only ones who are right. Try consulting a Bible.

yeah...you're terribly open minded on the topic.


Disagree all you wish.

The funny thing is....for as much time as some spend bashing religion or catholics...In time of need, when someone asks for prayers, I don't ever recall anyone caring from which denomination it comes from.

MOhillbilly
04-14-2006, 01:54 PM
If the preist Gave Communion to Non Catholics knowingly then he should be ex-communicated.I belive.

If he Just invited Non Catholics up to recieve a Blessing then I applaud his Efforts

yeah you would think it would be a dead give away for any priest IF a person didnt know how to properly recieve communion in the catholic tradition.

luv
04-14-2006, 01:55 PM
No. Reread your posts on the subject. thats why I find your posts Intollerant. You didn't start the thread, but you've made sure to let the starter know that his faith is wrong, and you're right.

Disagree all you wish.

The funny thing is....for as much time as some spend bashing religion or catholics...In time of need, when someone asks for prayers, I don't ever recall anyone caring from which denomination it comes from.
That's because people take a genuine interest in others. Most are willing to help when they can. You can do that even if you're not religious. Alot of people say "you're in my thoughts" instead of "you're in my prayers".

I guess it's just that most Catholics I know are very judgemental. They are "holier than thou". There are a lot of doctines that I strongly disagree with, but I'm afraid any "hostility" towards anyone is probably stemming from bad personal experiences with those I know.

I'm sorry if I came across that way. I just don't appreciate being told that my view of salvation is a misconception.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 01:57 PM
I know very few like that.

I know ALOT of people with your attitude towards Cs.

vailpass
04-14-2006, 01:59 PM
When was the last time you saw a Catholic bothering a Baptist at home to try and force their biblical view upon them?

luv
04-14-2006, 01:59 PM
I know very few like that.

I know ALOT of people with your attitude towards Cs.
Are they all raging Baptists? :p

Tig O Bittys
04-14-2006, 01:59 PM
When was the last time you saw a Catholic bothering a Baptist at home to try and force their biblical view upon them?


:clap:

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 02:00 PM
The 2 baptist grandmothers of ex girlfriend's who looked me in the eye and told Me I was going to hell for being Catholic sure were.


The Insider view of this Catholic seems to be, if the rest of the world of non-catholic would leave us Alone, we'd go about our worship and running the world's largest Charity without bothering any of you.

luv
04-14-2006, 02:01 PM
The 2 baptist grandmothers of ex girlfriend's who looked me in the eye and told Me I was going to hell for being Catholic sure were.
So, that's what makes me a Baptist? I remind you of your ex's grandmothers?

Clint in Wichita
04-14-2006, 02:01 PM
Here's one of favorite jokes:

How many Baptists does it take to change a light bulb?









CHANGE?!?!

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 02:08 PM
When was the last time you saw a Catholic bothering a Baptist at home to try and force their biblical view upon them?

> bad ≠ good

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 02:09 PM
So, that's what makes me a Baptist?

no...

But I haven't seen you deny it yet either.

vailpass
04-14-2006, 02:12 PM
> bad ≠ good

I was responding to a statement that Catholics were judgemental. I realize you come from a really ****ed up religious background; how do you view other religions?

MOhillbilly
04-14-2006, 02:12 PM
no...

But I haven't seen you deny it yet either.

and yet i felt the same way for not being catholic.

Anyway after our last conversation it doesnt bother me now.

luv
04-14-2006, 02:17 PM
no...

But I haven't seen you deny it yet either.
To say I'm a Baptist in a Catholic thread (where Baptist bashing has already begun) would be like committing social suicide. When have I ever been afraid to do that?

I went to a baptist church when I was little. My parents never went, but my mom would send my brother and I down the street to Sunday school. I've attended a few different churches. My mom became a Catholic later in life. I just thought it was extremely odd that you have to take classes before they'll even consider letting you in. You had to learn all about the Church. I don't think they asked her about her salvation one time. Not that she told me about anyway. An pouring water over someone to baptize them, and baptizing infants, just so much I didn't agree with. It wouldn't matter what denomination I was. I don't currently attend church (oops, living in sin), but I have my beliefs that I hold to. Some may be considered Baptist, but some definitely aren't. I really don't know what I would fall under.

Hydrae
04-14-2006, 02:28 PM
To me it doesn't matter what form of religion you follow. As far as I am concerned the most important part of Christianity boils down to two tenants Christ taught:

Love your neighbor as yourself
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

My issue with most Christians is that they seem to have lost sight of these tenants. Try hitchhiking sometime and see who is the most likely to stop and pick you up. I contend that more often than not it will be a stoner or biker and not the christian who attended service earlier that week. We should all try to be more Samaritan and less God fearing Jew.

Boon
04-14-2006, 02:30 PM
I am Catholic.
Just got out of Good Friday service.
Haven't eaten all day and am hungry as hell.

You Catholics answering the questions are doing a good job.
Better than I could. I don't knock others' beliefs and would
prefer they don't knock mine. However, I do pray for all.
This was done in church today. I wish all a Blessed Easter.

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 02:30 PM
I've posted it before, but its been a couple of years.
You won't hear me bashing another church without good cause. Its not different from thinking someone's last name is aweful, because of misdeeds of their great great grandfather, the horse thief.

Anyway....I've often described my view of religion like an old, wooden wagon wheel. People choose different spokes(religions or churches) to head to the same destination(heaven/God)....even if they start at different locations and take different paths.

not once, have I ever been told as a Catholic, that someone else was destined for hell, because they weren't.


Luv...as for the "classes", I'm pretty aware as I've been taking them with my wife, who converts to the church tomorrow. you don't have to convert or take the classes to attend...just can't take communion. Converting religion is not something people take lightly, and therefor these classes are the opportunity to learn about the church, and then at a point decide if you're going to. there was plenty of discussion about other churches others have been involved with, comparisons etc...and never once, were they bashed by the Nun. The only one really singled out was the JW and Mormon.

luv
04-14-2006, 02:31 PM
To me it doesn't matter what form of religion you follow. As far as I am concerned the most important part of Christianity boils down to two tenants Christ taught:

Love your neighbor as yourself
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

My issue with most Christians is that they seem to have lost sight of these tenants. Try hitchhiking sometime and see who is the most likely to stop and pick you up. I contend that more often than not it will be a stoner or biker and not the christian who attended service earlier that week. We should all try to be more Samaritan and less God fearing Jew.
Yeah, as a single woman, I'm gonna stop and pick someone up. Have you heard what has happened to people? I wouldn't pick up a hitchhiker or be one.

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 02:32 PM
how do you view other religions?

Through my TV and monitor only.

ct
04-14-2006, 02:34 PM
So can you have soda - sweet, fizzy, quenching, flavor-filled soda - on Sundays, or does the fact that Sunday doesn't count mean only that you have to go longer without it?

Damn you are ruthless!

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 02:34 PM
and yet i felt the same way for not being catholic.

Anyway after our last conversation it doesnt bother me now.

I'll never judge someone for not being catholic. I'm pretty much of the opinion that my religion is between me, my family and God. I'm much more free about discussing it here, than in person for some reason.

I figure it all comes down to free will. We're all responsible for our actions, inaction in some cases and our faith lives. The only entity I feel a person has to answer to, for their faith choices is their maker, and I know I'm not him.

being a Catholic, hasn't exactly been popular and any unbiased person would see that Cs catch alot more crap than any other church on the planet....and in the media.

luv
04-14-2006, 02:34 PM
I am Catholic.
Just got out of Good Friday service.
Haven't eaten all day and am hungry as hell.

You Catholics answering the questions are doing a good job.
Better than I could. I don't knock others' beliefs and would
prefer they don't knock mine. However, I do pray for all.
This was done in church today. I wish all a Blessed Easter.
Okay, now I'm confused again. cdcox got out of service, but he's a Lutheran. SLAG 02 posted that Catholics do not hold mass on Good Friday. Or is there a loophole I'm missing?

Hydrae
04-14-2006, 02:35 PM
Yeah, as a single woman, I'm gonna stop and pick someone up. Have you heard what has happened to people? I wouldn't pick up a hitchhiker or be one.


The hitchhiker comment was simply an easy analogy. How about this instead...

A couple weeks ago I was in Dallas (when the really bad rains hit and it flooded all over the place). Someone's car died and everyone was pulling out to go around them. I pulled over and helped him get his car pushed to the other side of the road to be out of the way and so he could go to get help. Again, I contend a large portion of those pulling around were in church on the previous Sunday but not one of them could be bothered to pull over to lend a hand.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 02:36 PM
Okay, now I'm confused again. cdcox got out of service, but he's a Lutheran. SLAG 02 posted that Catholics do not hold mass on Good Friday. Or is there a loophole I'm missing?

Once again the Service that he got out of was not MASS

it was Stations of the Cross and Communion service that is all

Iowanian
04-14-2006, 02:36 PM
Okay, now I'm confused again. cdcox got out of service, but he's a Lutheran. SLAG 02 posted that Catholics do not hold mass on Good Friday. Or is there a loophole I'm missing?

MASS is a service in which the Bread and wine are converted or whatever......

There can be a service, when bread and wine are not consecrated.
Today's services, from what I recall, if there were communion, would be from host that was already blessed.

Thats the difference.


if it makes you feel better hydrae, I will pick up a hitchiker if my family isn't with me(its not exactly safe) and I stop more than most to help stranded motorists...as do most of the males in my family.

Alot of that is regional I'll bet, more than religion based....Try getting someone to help you fix a tire in Rural Iowa or Missouri is going to be alot different than say....downtown Boston.

Jilly
04-14-2006, 02:44 PM
I'm always curious about this: Why is it "funny" that one's belief system would be "shattered" by something that you 'think' is unknown, like you're the first one to reveal that christmas, Jesus born in December, etc probably didn't happen like many believe, or are taught to believe?

Seriously people, you keep forgetting something. The bible is supposed to be the word and the truth. Christmas, etc was simply added on by "mankind"

I doubt as many people as you think believe that Jesus was born on December 25th, and as far as your statement that "we" have forgotten the importance of rituals is actually strange, considering that Mass on Easter, Midnight Mass, etc are all rituals.

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, I am just kinda observing.

Let me clarify: I have, believe it or not, by nature of my position in life, been around a ton of people who do not know these things about the placement of Christmas and Easter. Each time I have revealed that to them, there has been an immediate recourse in having to help them rethink their faith. Being a noob to this board, I assumed, apparently wrongly, that many here would be the same way. I am sorry if I failed in that respect.

As for the rituals: Again, I have been, by nature of my position in life, around many people who are Protestants who do not see the importance of ritual like it is in Catholicism. Being a Protestant, and also claiming this forgetting of the importance of rituals, I was talking ABOUT Protestants, not Catholics. Most Protestants, (unless lutheran or episcopalian) do not hold Mass on Easter or Midnight Mass. The rituals to which I was referring were things such as bowing to the altar, not the actual worship itself.

Does that help?

SLAG
04-14-2006, 02:46 PM
I am Catholic.
Just got out of Good Friday service.
Haven't eaten all day and am hungry as hell.

You Catholics answering the questions are doing a good job.
Better than I could. I don't knock others' beliefs and would
prefer they don't knock mine. However, I do pray for all.
This was done in church today. I wish all a Blessed Easter.

Im hungry as F*ck too

at work we had a food day...

3 people have broght me leftovers...

And I cant eat..

Thank you Jesus for Dying for my sins

ct
04-14-2006, 02:47 PM
I'm intolerant because I disagree with the Catholic religion? I'm not the one starting a thread based on my faith. I stated what I believed about salvation and what it takes to be a Christian, and I got told I was under some great misconception. I'm getting called hostile when I'm not. I'm being told I'm a judgemental raging baptist. Baptist eat all the time. I'm dieting, so I couldn't possibly fit in.

I think you don't like fat chicks. :p Or maybe chicks with their own opinions.

Gee, overreact much? Try the link BrainCase posted earlier in this thread. There's some very good info here. (and a damn good theme, too!)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 02:48 PM
We had the daily readings along with a reading of the Passion followed by Veneration of the Cross & Communion. They started Stations afterward but the kids were getting cranky and I had to get back to the office.

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 02:48 PM
Im hungry as F*ck too

at work we had a food day...

3 people have broght me leftovers...

And I cant eat..

Thank you Jesus for Dying for my sins

ROFL

ct
04-14-2006, 02:49 PM
...
The funny thing is....for as much time as some spend bashing religion or catholics...In time of need, when someone asks for prayers, I don't ever recall anyone caring from which denomination it comes from.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Hell Yeah!! That's what it's all about folks!

luv
04-14-2006, 02:51 PM
Gee, overreact much? Try the link BrainCase posted earlier in this thread. There's some very good info here. (and a damn good theme, too!)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/
The only time I've ever been told I overreact is on here. I must be way different on here than I am in person.

Jilly
04-14-2006, 02:56 PM
disagreeing and being intolerant, Luv, are two different things. It's how you approach the subject. It seems as though, instead of trying to understand it, you've already made up your mind as to what you want to believe about it. So your mind is closed to what others are saying, that's intolerant. Disagreeing is actually hearing what is being said, digesting it, and then drawing a conclusion from it.
I disagree with a lot of Catholicism, but I have a profound respect for it. I would never judge it, or condemn it because in its own way it is beautiful. It just isn't what I choose for my own faith journey.

Boon
04-14-2006, 02:57 PM
Okay, now I'm confused again. cdcox got out of service, but he's a Lutheran. SLAG 02 posted that Catholics do not hold mass on Good Friday. Or is there a loophole I'm missing?

I can't speak for cdcox but I am sure other denominations have Good Friday services.

As for the service I attended it went like this.
We had two readings from the Bible. One Old Testament, one New Testament. Then we read the Passion. This was followed by a homily (sermon). Afterward we had Veneration of the Cross. This was followed by Communion. Then it was go home time. Hope this helps.

Jilly
04-14-2006, 03:01 PM
Many, many, many Protestant Churches have Good Friday services. Ours is usually a drama of some sort - our youth usually do it.

Boon
04-14-2006, 03:04 PM
Many, many, many Protestant Churches have Good Friday services. Ours is usually a drama of some sort - our youth usually do it.

I thought so. Thanks for the clarification.

vailpass
04-14-2006, 03:09 PM
disagreeing and being intolerant, Luv, are two different things. It's how you approach the subject. It seems as though, instead of trying to understand it, you've already made up your mind as to what you want to believe about it. So your mind is closed to what others are saying, that's intolerant. Disagreeing is actually hearing what is being said, digesting it, and then drawing a conclusion from it.
I disagree with a lot of Catholicism, but I have a profound respect for it. I would never judge it, or condemn it because in its own way it is beautiful. It just isn't what I choose for my own faith journey.

Very well put. Let's all take that attitude and we'll all get along just fine.

ct
04-14-2006, 03:19 PM
Many, many, many Protestant Churches have Good Friday services. Ours is usually a drama of some sort - our youth usually do it.

I grew up Baptist, and we had Good Friday musical only services every year.

AustinChief
04-14-2006, 04:09 PM
Here is a great book addressing this subject...

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0764813412.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

jspchief
04-14-2006, 04:15 PM
Does good friday mean the end of cheap Filet-O-Fish sandwiches at McDonalds?

That's one thing I love about Catholics. They get me cheap Filet-O-Fish. :thumb:

journeyscarab
04-14-2006, 04:22 PM
Does good friday mean the end of cheap Filet-O-Fish sandwiches at McDonalds?

That's one thing I love about Catholics. They get me cheap Filet-O-Fish. :thumb:

I thought Wendy's was the one's pandering this time around! ;)

I died laughing when I saw the Wendy's ad offering cheap fish sandwiches through 4/16. I've never seen a fish sandwich at Wendy's before - just burgers and chicken.

Thanks Dave Thomas! :p

Jilly
04-14-2006, 04:27 PM
great, now I feel this immediate need to go to McDonald's and get a fish sandwich. I hope I beat the rush.

Manila-Chief
04-14-2006, 05:41 PM
All Catholic Teachings come straight from the Bible-

As we all Know the Bible does have many conflicting storys- such as two storys of creation-

Catholics Believe that you are not saved by Faith Alone (Sola Fide) Or by Scrptiure alone (Sola Scrpitura) you are also not Redeemed by your\ works alone (Sola Gratia)

It takes many parts to make a whole- if i read my bible all day long but never have faith or practice what the bible teachs in my actions am I better than a Non Beliver?

I do not wish to get into a debate on this issue but the quote above caused me to lift an eyebrow. Disclaimer: I have not read the pages after page 3 ... thus someone may have already pointed this out ... but, as I understand things .... leaders in the Catholic church explain that "Catholic Teachings" come from 3 different sources:

1. Tradition
2. The Pope
3. The Bible

And from listening to "them" tell it the Bible is not the main source of authority????

Don't mean to offend ... just my 2 centavos worth.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 05:47 PM
I do not wish to get into a debate on this issue but the quote above caused me to lift an eyebrow. Disclaimer: I have not read the pages after page 3 ... thus someone may have already pointed this out ... but, as I understand things .... leaders in the Catholic church explain that "Catholic Teachings" come from 3 different sources:

1. Tradition
2. The Pope
3. The Bible

And from listening to "them" tell it the Bible is not the main source of authority????

Don't mean to offend ... just my 2 centavos worth.


Good Question-

The short answer is the Bible is he Main Source of Authority- All our core beliefs are from the bible... the way it is interpeted is where it gets confusing, The Pope Overrides tradition, but tradition lays the foundation on what we have today.

The Pope on matters of Faith is infallable, usally people that have a problem with what the pope tries to teach are the ones having Abortions and using birth control- (i know im going to catch alot of shit for this) I mean its not like the pope is trying to teach anything bad- If one has a problem with the popes teachings they should really brush up on the differences of good and evil.

luv
04-14-2006, 05:49 PM
Good Question-

The short answer is the Bible is he Main Source of Authority- All our core beliefs are from the bible... the way it is interpeted is where it gets confusing, The Pope Overrides tradition, but tradition lays the foundation on what we have today.

The Pope on matters of Faith is infallable, usally people that have a problem with what the pope tries to teach are the ones having Abortions and using birth control- (i know im going to catch alot of shit for this) I mean its not like the pope is trying to teach anything bad- If one has a problem with the popes teachings they should really brush up on the differences of good and evil.
Sounds like your ultimate authority is the Pope, not the Bible. You have to go by how the Pope interprets it?

SLAG
04-14-2006, 05:55 PM
Sounds like your ultimate authority is the Pope, not the Bible. You have to go by how the Pope interprets it?


Ultimate Authority belongs to GOD ( The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit)-

GOD gave the bible to us through Human Men-

GOD sent Jesus to die for our sins and show us how to live-

Jesus Appointed Peter to make his church and be the leader of his chruch-

The Pope is the Successor to the Throne of Peter.

luv
04-14-2006, 06:03 PM
Ultimate Authority belongs to GOD ( The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit)-

GOD gave the bible to us through Human Men-

GOD sent Jesus to die for our sins and show us how to live-

Jesus Appointed Peter to make his church and be the leader of his chruch-

The Pope is the Successor to the Throne of Peter.
A whole religion based on one verse.

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 06:07 PM
The Pope is the Successor to the Throne of Peter.

Can't make up their mind, can they?

Manila-Chief
04-14-2006, 06:07 PM
Oh ... HAPPY EASTER to ALL whatever your "faith" or "non-faith" (I'm sure all will have something about this season to enjoy .... even if you are non religious.)

SLAG
04-14-2006, 06:15 PM
Can't make up their mind, can they?


We all have to die sometime Execpt Mary... She Went Right to Heaven ;)

SLAG
04-14-2006, 06:18 PM
A whole religion based on one verse.

Yes

The same core beliefs you Believe as well

All of Christianity was based on the story of Jesus. the Catholic chruch spawned all other christian religions.

Count Zarth
04-14-2006, 06:19 PM
the Catholic chruch spawned all other christian religions.

Incorrect.

cdcox
04-14-2006, 06:19 PM
We all have to die sometime Execpt Mary... She Went Right to Heaven ;)

The cannonical scriptures are silent as to the manner by which Mary left earth. But it does record that neither Enoch nor Elijah had to pass through death.

SLAG
04-14-2006, 06:20 PM
Incorrect.
Prove me wrong

Guru
04-14-2006, 06:20 PM
Through my TV and monitor only.


Hey, gochiefs got his name back. Congrats.

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 07:04 PM
My wife is converting from your church to Catholic tomorrow. .

I took that "faith journey" 2 years ago.
Went through the RCIA program, every freaken sunday for 2 hours with 2 nun's and my wife as my sponsor.


Really makes you think about your self as a person.
And knowing first hand about conversion, sheís gone down quite a road

Over-Head
04-14-2006, 07:13 PM
That's because Catholicism is LOADED.

Careful there son, a few of us know what you were once

JohnnyV13
04-14-2006, 07:34 PM
Humane Vitae was prophetic. Look at what our society has come to and then tell me Humane Vitae a logical abomination.


Just because I write a document that predicts "The reconstruction of Iraq will fail" and it comes to pass doesn't mean my solution of "So therefore lets drop nukes and turn them into a parking lot" is necessarily a good idea.

Tell me, who has more contempt for human life: the person who uses a condom or the person that tells people living in an overpopulated 3rd world country who can't afford to feed all their children that using birth control is a sin?

SLAG
04-14-2006, 07:37 PM
Just because I write a document that predicts "The reconstruction of Iraq will fail" and it comes to pass doesn't mean my solution of "So therefore lets drop nukes and turn them into a parking lot" is necessarily a good idea.

Tell me, who has more contempt for human life: the person who uses a condom or the person that tells people living in an overpopulated 3rd world country who can't afford to feed all their children that using birth control is a sin?


If the Country is over populated stop having sex.

Birth Control is Fallable.

Sex is for Procreation.

journeyscarab
04-15-2006, 09:51 AM
Incorrect.

HOW OLD IS YOUR CHURCH?
If you are a Lutheran, your denomination was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your denomination was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope could not grant him an annulment from his true and lawful wife, Catherine of Aragon, with the right to re-marry.

If you are an Eastern Orthodox, your church was taken from the Catholic Church in 1054 when the Pope and an Eastern Patriarch excommunicated each other.

If you are a Presbyterian, your denomination was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your denomination was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If your are a Congregationalist, your denomination was originated by Robert Browne in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your denomination was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are LDS or "Mormon" (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith Jr. started your religion in Palmyra, NY, in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your denomination to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your denomination in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you are a follower of the Church of Scientology, your group owes its origin to L. Ron Hubbard in Washington D. C. in 1952.

If you are a Seventh Day Adventist, Mrs. Ellen Gould White inaugurated your group in the United States in 1860.

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, your religion was invented by "Pastor" Charles Taze Russell in 1874, incorporated 1881.

If you are a worshipper at the Iglesia ni Cristo, Felix Manalo instituted your sect in the Philippines in 1914.

If you call yourself a Mennonite, your movement was named after Menno Simons, a Catholic priest for 12 years, who left the Church to join the conservative Anabaptist wing.

The Amish, started by Jacob Amman around 1693, are just one of many different church bodies within the Mennonite community in the U.S.

If you are a believer at the Vineyard Chrstian Fellowship, your denomination was started by Ken Guillickson and Keith Green in Santa Monica, California in 1974.

If you are a member of Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith began your congregation in Costa Mesa, California in 1975.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as "Church of the Nazarene", "Pentecostal Gospel", "Holiness Church", "Pilgrim Holiness Church", your denomination is one of the many thousands of new sects and religions founded by men within the past several hundred years.

If you are a Novus Ordo "Catholic," your church spun off the Roman Catholic Church as a result of the 1960's Robber Council, Vatican II.

If you are a traditional Roman Catholic, you know that your Church was founded in the year 33 A.D. by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

If you are Jewish, Abraham became the first Jew when God promised him: "I will make you a great nation...". Your religion was founded by God in the Jewish calendar year 2049 (1711 BC), over 3700 years ago. God revealed Himself to the Jews through the Prophets and promised to send a Messiah. Jesus Christ, a Jew from the House of David, came to this world as His only begotten Son in fulfilment of the scriptures.

Brock
04-15-2006, 10:01 AM
If you are a traditional Roman Catholic, you know that your Church was founded in the year 33 A.D. by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

ROFL Yeah. Okay.

Count Zarth
04-15-2006, 10:03 AM
ROFL Yeah. Okay.

Arrogance in it's highest form.

SLAG
04-15-2006, 10:43 AM
ROFL Yeah. Okay.
Once again

Prove it wrong

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-15-2006, 10:50 AM
Can you disprove this conception of mine? The Catholic Church has killed more people than cancer.

Count Zarth
04-15-2006, 10:53 AM
If I was pope, I'd melt down a few churches and feed Africa.

SLAG
04-15-2006, 10:53 AM
Can you disprove this conception of mine? The Catholic Church has killed more people than cancer.


No I cannont But I would like to see a Link..

:)

Herzig
04-15-2006, 11:00 AM
If I was pope, I'd melt down a few churches and feed Africa.

I'm Catholic and attended many Catholic churches...where exactly are these churches made o' gold? :shrug:

Count Zarth
04-15-2006, 11:02 AM
I'm Catholic and attended many Catholic churches...where exactly are these churches made o' gold? :shrug:

Shut up and go say a few hail mary's...you just tipped off against DOGPISS.

Herzig
04-15-2006, 11:03 AM
Shut up and go say a few hail mary's...you just tipped off against DOGPISS.

Answer my question Dog dick

luv
04-15-2006, 11:03 AM
Once again

Prove it wrong
Why do we care what Church is the oldest. Does that make you superior or something? Can't accept the fact that not everyone is Catholic? Why start a thread like this anyway?

luv
04-15-2006, 11:05 AM
No I cannont But I would like to see a Link..

:)
You're really good at finding links about your religion instead of telling us what YOU believe. I believe he asked you to prove it.

SLAG
04-15-2006, 11:07 AM
You're really good at finding links about you religion instead of telling us what YOU believe. I believe he asked you to prove it.

and I believe I said I could NOT disprove his statement but IMO its irrealavent to the churches current teachings.

Herzig
04-15-2006, 11:07 AM
Why do we care what Church is the oldest. Does that make you superior or something? Can't accept the fact that not everyone is Catholic? Why start a thread like this anyway?

I don't think it makes Catholics superior in any way. It's just interesting how criticized and ridiculed Catholics are by other Christians when really all Christian denominations ultimately have their roots in Catholicism.

luv
04-15-2006, 11:08 AM
and I believe I said I could NOT disprove his statement but IMO its irrealavent to the churches current teachings.
You asked him for a link, so you must be interested.

luv
04-15-2006, 11:08 AM
I don't think it makes Catholics superior in any way. It's just interesting how criticized and ridiculed Catholics are by other Christians when really all Christian denominations ultimately have their roots in Catholicism.
I disagree with that.

luv
04-15-2006, 11:12 AM
I just want to ask one more question, then I'm not opening this thread after I get an answer.

How do you get to Heaven? What does it take to be saved? As long as you're saved, then you can believe whatever you want.

Herzig
04-15-2006, 11:13 AM
I disagree with that.

How so? It was the first Christian religion....that fact doesn't make Catholicism superior in any way to any other religion be it Christian or Non Christian.

Herzig
04-15-2006, 11:15 AM
I just want to ask one more question, then I'm not opening this thread after I get an answer.

How do you get to Heaven? What does it take to be saved? As long as you're saved, then you can believe whatever you want.

Only God decides that....I don't think you'll get your answer here.

luv
04-15-2006, 11:16 AM
Only God decides that....I don't think you'll get your answer here.
Ever read John 3:16?

We will NEVER be good enough to enter Heaven based on our own doings and beliefs. It's only accepting what Jesus cross did on the cross for us. You reject Jesus, and you reject Heaven.

cdcox
04-15-2006, 11:18 AM
How so? It was the first Christian religion....that fact doesn't make Catholicism superior in any way to any other religion be it Christian or Non Christian.

I'd say that the Eastern Orthodox have an equal claim to tracing its roots to Christ in terms of a descent of church leaders and theologians.

SLAG
04-15-2006, 11:19 AM
"The Catholic Church teaches that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance. We can be assured that we will go to heaven--if we remain in the state of grace. But we can have no assurance that we will persevere in such a state, much as we might want to at the moment.

"The Church teaches that since 'God wills the salvation of all men,' he gives each of us enough grace to be saved. Grace is a gift, and a gift is not forced upon the recipient. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it can be rejected after once being accepted.

"The minister in my hypothetical once accepted grace and, on the last day of his life, rejected it, losing his salvation. He died grace-less and therefore disqualified for heaven."

Our discussion went on for a while. I brought up several verses that I have found useful when talking about the idea of an absolute assurance of salvation. I particularly like to use a trio of verses from Paul. (I give them here in the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition translation.)

In Romans 5:2 Paul writes that "we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God"--that is, we rejoice in our hope of going to heaven. This means salvation is something we hope for.

In Romans 8:24 he says, "For in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?" Hope concerns things that are possible but not certain, which is why the saints in heaven no longer have the virtue of hope. They don't need it. Having God, they already have everything, and there is nothing left for them to hope for.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." Even the apostle battled earthly temptations lest he succumb to them and lose heaven.

"Taken together," I said to the young man, "these verses show that Paul did not teach an absolute assurance of salvation. Quite the opposite. Who was more a born-again Christian than he? Which Christians of your acquaintance have been knocked off their feet while on the road to Damascus?

"If Paul didn't believe in an absolute assurance of salvation, why should we?"


Link to Full Story (http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041116.asp)

luv
04-15-2006, 11:21 AM
"The Catholic Church teaches that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance. We can be assured that we will go to heaven--if we remain in the state of grace. But we can have no assurance that we will persevere in such a state, much as we might want to at the moment.

"The Church teaches that since 'God wills the salvation of all men,' he gives each of us enough grace to be saved. Grace is a gift, and a gift is not forced upon the recipient. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it can be rejected after once being accepted.

"The minister in my hypothetical once accepted grace and, on the last day of his life, rejected it, losing his salvation. He died grace-less and therefore disqualified for heaven."

Our discussion went on for a while. I brought up several verses that I have found useful when talking about the idea of an absolute assurance of salvation. I particularly like to use a trio of verses from Paul. (I give them here in the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition translation.)

In Romans 5:2 Paul writes that "we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God"--that is, we rejoice in our hope of going to heaven. This means salvation is something we hope for.

In Romans 8:24 he says, "For in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?" Hope concerns things that are possible but not certain, which is why the saints in heaven no longer have the virtue of hope. They don't need it. Having God, they already have everything, and there is nothing left for them to hope for.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." Even the apostle battled earthly temptations lest he succumb to them and lose heaven.

"Taken together," I said to the young man, "these verses show that Paul did not teach an absolute assurance of salvation. Quite the opposite. Who was more a born-again Christian than he? Which Christians of your acquaintance have been knocked off their feet while on the road to Damascus?

"If Paul didn't believe in an absolute assurance of salvation, why should we?"
Jesus died ONCE for all. We have to accept that over and over and over and over again? We have to hail his earthly mother in order to gain his forgiveness over and over and over again?

luv
04-15-2006, 11:24 AM
This may be the oldest Church, but there are so many ways that it has veered from the Bible based upon the interpretations of man.

I'm not saying I'm perfect. But if I have to base getting into Heaven on what church I attend, whether I've confessed my sins to a man, if I can get enough others to pray for my soul, etc, then I'm in big trouble. We all are.

"None are righteous, no not one."

SLAG
04-15-2006, 11:29 AM
Jesus died ONCE for all. We have to accept that over and over and over and over again? We have to hail his earthly mother in order to gain his forgiveness over and over and over again?


Jesus died to Open the gates of heaven for everyone that follows him - remember he said I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE

because they were sealed from adam and eve sinning in the garden of eden- Origianl Sin-

Only by Gods Grace do we obatin forgiveness and Life everlasting-

Catholics Belief that we Attain Grace from MAINLY Partcipating in the 7 Sacraments-

they are as follows:

THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE

THE SACRAMENT OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST

THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION

THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY

THE SACRAMENT OF THE ANOINTING OF THE SICK

Herzig
04-15-2006, 11:31 AM
Ever read John 3:16?

Sure. It's amazing how differently the Bible is interpreted by all the different Christian denominations isn't it?

Herzig
04-15-2006, 11:34 AM
I'd say that the Eastern Orthodox have an equal claim to tracing its roots to Christ in terms of a descent of church leaders and theologians.

Agreed...but before the schism, one Christian Church existed for over 1000 years.