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Count Zarth
04-15-2006, 01:06 PM
As many of you know, I know shit about politics. Is Bush really this bad?

Bush's whole presidency has been a fraud.

Regardless of the legal status of the Iraq war, consider the following:

1) He told the country that Iraq had WMDs. They did not. Personally, I'd be willing to give him a mulligan on that one, were it not for:

2) His administration was shown to have cherry-picked intelligence which supported a prior decision to launch a fresh invasion.

3) He claimed there was a plan for the occupation and reconstruction. There was not.

4) He claimed that Iraq's oil would pay for the reconstruction. It did not.

5) He claimed that the money apporpriated for the reconstruction would go to the Iraqis. The vast majority of it went to Halliburton and associated companies, on no-bid contracts.

6) He claimed victory before the real fight had even begun.

7) On the home front, he pushed a "Clear Skies" act which actually allows for greater pollution.

8) He pushed a "Healthy Forests" act which actually allows for more logging

9) He created a prescription drug program that was designed primarily by and to the benefit of the pharmaceutical industry

10) He said that America did not torture prisoners, while having his attorney general look for legal loopholes in the definition of torture to allow it.

11) After signing into law a bill banning Torture, he issued a signing statement saying that he was going to ignore it.

unlurking
04-15-2006, 01:44 PM
My personal opinions...

1. Jury still out. Nothing found, but a lot of evidence pointing to the movement of WMD to Syria. I think we need more evidence, but believe we may never know. (This is a change from my former beliefs, as a lot of testimony and documentation points to Syria, though credibility has yet to be determined.)

2. I do believe this to be true. You always choose to present the evidence that supports your position. (Although this makes me believe he made up his mind first, then reviewed the evidence. A bigger mistake IMO.)

3. I don't know. If there was a plan, it obviously was a bad one.

4. As far as I know, we are 100s of billions of dollars into this war. The oil MAY have paid for reconstruction, had the plan not so underestimated the insurgency and sectarian backlash.

5. This is true from what I've read (at least in terms of Haliburton and no-bid contracts).

6. Victory to Bush seemed to be the fall of Saddam, not the end of violence.

7. Don't know.

8. Don't know.

9. From what I've read, yes.

10. That's what it seemed like to me.

11. As he has done with several bills, including the Patriot Act.

the Talking Can
04-15-2006, 02:20 PM
You could make a list 10 times as long....just pick a lie at random, like this:

Bush: "And as a result of the United States military, Taliban no longer is in existence"

transcript from whitehouse.gov (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/09/20040927-4.html)


which is interesting, given the news today:

Afghan battle kills 41 Taliban, governor says
6 police also killed in fierce fighting in southern Kandahar province


KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - Forty-one Taliban fighters and six Afghan policemen were killed in a fierce battle in southern Afghanistan, a provincial governor said on Saturday.

There were no foreign casualties in Friday’s battle between Taliban fighters and Afghan and foreign forces in the Zare Dasht district of Kandahar province, Kandahar Governor Assadullah Khalid said....


...Friday’s battle comes amid weeks of rising violence by Taliban, fighting Afghan government and foreign forces since U.S.-led troops overthrew their Kabul administration in 2001.

U.S.-led forces killed six Taliban in an air strike in eastern Afghanistan on Friday. A blast elsewhere killed three policemen, while two British troops from the NATO-led peacekeeping mission were wounded in a suicide attack in Helmand.


msnbc (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12324551/)

Count Zarth
04-15-2006, 02:45 PM
Wow. I can't ignore this any longer. What's even worse is my father is a huge Bush supporter. He's a raging conservative. He watches FOX religiously.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-15-2006, 03:29 PM
Wow. I can't ignore this any longer. What's even worse is my father is a huge Bush supporter. He's a raging conservative. He watches FOX religiously.

Well, be sure that you are on safe turf before you confront him, and make sure that you have plenty of ammo to back your beliefs up. With that being said, I admire your bravery.

BucEyedPea
04-15-2006, 03:40 PM
My personal opinions...

1. Jury still out. Nothing found, but a lot of evidence pointing to the movement of WMD to Syria. I think we need more evidence, but believe we may never know.

I know you say you need more evidence, but Colin Powell is already on record as saying no hard evidence of WMD were moved to Syria.

I can see this being a good line to create regime change in there after Iran that is.

And those trailers supposedly seen by satellite turned out to be nothing too.

SH got rid of his WMD. The entire inspection process was full of propaganda and false reports in the US press, because CIA was trying to get to SH's inner circle for a coup...just as we also put him in power. I believe it SH was even given an official clearance too. He had them at one time but disarmed after PGWI. And we gave these to him originally to use on Iran.

Further, his head guy over WMD, now living in the US since the invasion, was even on FOX stating that they got rid of them but that SH was simply a paranoid.

Count Zarth
04-15-2006, 03:49 PM
Well, be sure that you are on safe turf before you confront him, and make sure that you have plenty of ammo to back your beliefs up. With that being said, I admire your bravery.

I'm not interested in confronting my dad when it comes to politics. Or anyone, for that matter. By and large, people have their minds made up and you can't change them.

Lurch
04-15-2006, 03:52 PM
I'm not interested in confronting my dad when it comes to politics. Or anyone, for that matter. By and large, people have their minds made up and you can't change them.

Wise words. From gochiefs no less.

memyselfI
04-15-2006, 04:14 PM
I'm not interested in confronting my dad when it comes to politics. Or anyone, for that matter. By and large, people have their minds made up and you can't change them.

Not entirely true. Sure, no one here has probably changed anyone's mind singlehandedly. But they've planted doubts that when initially read by a Bush supporter sounded outlandish and then months later end up being true. Someone like Logical won't say anyone here changed his mind. But I bet he'd admit that what he read here made him question DUHbya alot sooner than he might have previously done had he not been exposed to nay-sayers and skeptics.

Likewise, I think the skeptics seek to reinforce the Bushbots beliefs. The more evidence they are presented that the guy is a fraud the deeper they dig in their heels and defend.

banyon
04-15-2006, 04:24 PM
Not entirely true. Sure, no one here has probably changed anyone's mind singlehandedly. But they've planted doubts that when initially read by a Bush supporter sounded outlandish and then months later end up being true. Someone like Logical won't say anyone here changed his mind. But I bet he'd admit that what he read here made him question DUHbya alot sooner than he might have previously done had he not been exposed to nay-sayers and skeptics.

Likewise, I think the skeptics seek to reinforce the Bushbots beliefs. The more evidence they are presented that the guy is a fraud the deeper they dig in their heels and defend.

According to Chiefs Express (whose posts I cannot currently read) no one has ever changed anyone's mind about anything ever. To think you can do so is pure folly.

I know that I've held the same exact views since I was a baby. :)

Chiefs Express
04-15-2006, 04:54 PM
According to Chiefs Express (whose posts I cannot currently read) no one has ever changed anyone's mind about anything ever. To think you can do so is pure folly.

I know that I've held the same exact views since I was a baby.

It's amazing that banyon has an aversion to reading what I post but will attack what I've said blindly. I guess we can all presume it is because he doesn't have a legitimate defense for his viewpoints.

And I do figure that you are still playing the baby games. The opinions of the political pundits here cannot be changed and if you will notice it's the democrats/liberals that are doing all of the attacking. The other side is confident that this president is not what they all want it to be.

patteeu
04-15-2006, 05:08 PM
Most of them are basically true, more or less, although the spin is clearly anti-Bush. A Bush supporter could make the same list and make it sounds a lot less negative.

For example:

6) He claimed victory before the real fight had even begun.

Could have been:

6) His military toppled the Iraqi regime in record time with very few American casualties and although an insurgency continues to resist the establishment of an America-friendly sovereign government, an American trained Iraqi army is beginning to take the lead in the defense of it's government and the American casualty rate continues to drop.

Or simply:

6) His military took down Saddam Hussein in record time, captured him and turned him over to the new America-friendly Iraqi government for trial.

-------------------------

Don't let the spinmeisters sour you on Bush. You need something a little more serious than democrat talking points like these to base your political decisions on. Keep reading the news and decide for yourself. But remember, if you turn against Bush, you are siding with jAZ. ROFL ;)

banyon
04-15-2006, 05:34 PM
Most of them are basically true, more or less, although the spin is clearly anti-Bush. A Bush supporter could make the same list and make it sounds a lot less negative.

For example:

6) He claimed victory before the real fight had even begun.

Could have been:

6) His military toppled the Iraqi regime in record time with very few American casualties and although an insurgency continues to resist the establishment of an America-friendly sovereign government, an American trained Iraqi army is beginning to take the lead in the defense of it's government and the American casualty rate continues to drop.

Or simply:

6) His military took down Saddam Hussein in record time, captured him and turned him over to the new America-friendly Iraqi government for trial.

-------------------------

Don't let the spinmeisters sour you on Bush. You need something a little more serious than democrat talking points like these to base your political decisions on. Keep reading the news and decide for yourself. But remember, if you turn against Bush, you are siding with jAZ. ROFL ;)

Right. That was a pretty biased review of what he did :rolleyes: : "He claimed vistory before the fight even begun"
(apologies to Talking Can for unauthorized use of his avy)

Chiefs Express
04-15-2006, 07:18 PM
Right. That was a pretty biased review of what he did :rolleyes: : "He claimed vistory before the fight even begun"
(apologies to Talking Can for unauthorized use of his avy)

I guess your recollection of what that was all about was conveniently forgotten, but .... hey, it's the democratic/liberal way.

irishjayhawk
04-16-2006, 09:45 AM
Most of them are basically true, more or less, although the spin is clearly anti-Bush. A Bush supporter could make the same list and make it sounds a lot less negative.

For example:

6) He claimed victory before the real fight had even begun.

Could have been:

6) His military toppled the Iraqi regime in record time with very few American casualties and although an insurgency continues to resist the establishment of an America-friendly sovereign government, an American trained Iraqi army is beginning to take the lead in the defense of it's government and the American casualty rate continues to drop.

Or simply:

6) His military took down Saddam Hussein in record time, captured him and turned him over to the new America-friendly Iraqi government for trial.

-------------------------

Don't let the spinmeisters sour you on Bush. You need something a little more serious than democrat talking points like these to base your political decisions on. Keep reading the news and decide for yourself. But remember, if you turn against Bush, you are siding with jAZ. ROFL ;)

Yep, I like this one:


6) His military took down Saddam Hussein in record time, captured him and turned him over to the new America-friendly Iraqi government for trial.

Only I'd add some things.

His military took down Saddam Hussein in record time, captured him and turned hiim over to the new America-friendly Iraqi government for trial. However, more than 10x more troops were killed AFTER the war than DURING, and the people are not "American-friendly". And he falsified intelligence. And the British Memo. And the Cheneyburton no-bid contracts. And etc etc.

BucEyedPea
04-16-2006, 10:17 AM
Bush is a total fraud!
Heck, he's not even a conservative. He uses the term
"compassionate conservative"...wtf does that mean?
Turns out to be a euphemism for being a progressive in conservative clothing.

LAMO that conservatives think he's an American limited-gov't type. He's a Wilsonian, our great progressive, who sees salavation in "democracy" and spends on socialist programs to the point of matching LBJ! ( his presidency is most like LBJ's)

His advisors are Neo Conservatives who are basically Marxists, Trotskyte-strain who believe in permanent revolution and in Strauss' "big lie" techniques. Bush says things like "War is peace!" LOL! Seems like "1984" has arrived 20 years late.

He's a RHINO, a fraud and a liar.