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View Full Version : Cromartie to Hali comparison thread.....here are scouting reports


Mecca
04-17-2006, 10:14 PM
I'll do Hali first........
Tamba Hali
Height: 6-3
Weight: 275
40 Speed: 4.70 E
Position: Defensive End
College: Penn State
Final Grade: I 6.4



SUMMARY
Hali is a competitive player who consistently makes plays through sheer effort and determination. He is a very good athlete with the quick feet to accelerate to full speed in a flash and can chase down ball carriers in backside pursuit with ease. He has shown the ability to bend his knees and play with leverage at the point of attack vs. offensive tackles' run blocks -- he can hold ground at the point of attack, shed the block and make the tackle. He has a surprisingly good array of pass rush moves despite limited experience -- he uses a very good club move to beat offensive tackles inside, can beat offensive tackles inside or outside with swim/arm-over move and can beat offensive tackles around the corner by dipping his shoulder to freeze them for a second. He needs to improve his get-off at the snap and must learn to read his keys better to make up for his lack of football instincts. He will become a good starting defensive end who will make a lot of plays, especially as a pass rusher, but will always make a few less plays than you expect due to his lack of ideal instincts. His smarts and work ethic will help him to learn to identify plays through reading keys to make up for some of his lack of instincts.

CRITICAL FACTORS
Size Initial Quickness Play Strength Competes Play Speed Instincts
6.0 5.5 6.0 6.0 6.5 5.0

STRONG POINTS
Hali is a very good athlete with the quick feet, agility and burst to make plays all over the field. When he rushes the quarterback aggressively, he can jolt the offensive tackle and can either drive him backwards into the quarterback's lap or he can beat him with a very good club or swim move. Despite lacking a burst off the ball, once he gets going he has the playing speed to out race the offensive tackle around the corner. He does a good job ob playing with leverage vs. run blocks, can stack the point of attack, sheds the block and make tackles. He is very good at chasing down running plays in backside pursuit.

WEAKNESSES
Hali is not a naturally instinctive football player and while some of this can be attributed to his lack of football experience, it is impossible to predict how his instincts will improve with experience. He does not explode off the ball, and while he has the playing speed to beat many offensive tackles around the corner, he will struggle to consistently do that in the NFL without bursting off the ball. He does not attack the blocker/play consistently and is not as effective when he doesn't. He tends to play upright and looks a little robotic at times when he does not bend his knees.

POSITIONAL FACTORS
Grade Category Comments/Description
5.5 Read & React He has the athleticism to react fast, but he does not consistently read/identify the play quickly.

5.5 Initial Quickness He does not explode off the ball -- he's just adequate in inital quickness at the snap.

6.0 Play Strength He can be very good, but needs to play aggressively and use his hands on every snap to play up to his natural strength.

6.0 Use of Hands Often, he is excellent with hands -- he can jolt offensive tackles and beat them with quick club and arm-over moves.

5.5 Shed Blocker He does not consistently shed blocks quickly -- if a blocker gets ahold of him first, he struggles.

6.0 Run at Him He does not always make the play, but he does slow up the play even if he can't get free to make the play.

6.5 Pursuit/Range He consistently hustles and chases hard in pursuit, has very good playing speed, and an explosive closing burst.

5.5 Tackling He has the ability to be very good, but does not consistently bend his knees to get low and finish consistently.

6.0 Closing Burst He has an explosive closing burst to the ball to finish plays in pursuit, but is inconsistent closing on the quarterback.

5.5 Power Rush When he is aggressive, he can can jolt the offensive tackle backwards, free up and get pressure on the quarterback.

5.5 Speed Rush He lacks explosiveness off the ball, but once he gets moving he has the speed to get the corner.

6.0 Errors He does not make any true mistakes, but is limited at times by not reading and reacting quickly every snap.

ATHLETIC ABILITY Section Grade: 6.5
Hali is a very good athlete, which is a big reason he was a productive college defensive end despite a lack of experience at the position. He has very quick feet -- on runs away, he can accelerate to full speed in a flash and has the speed to chase down the ball carrier. He has good natural flexibility to bend his knees and play with leverage and a good base, but he does not show it consistently. His combination of very quick feet and agility help him to change directions and burst in the other direction when he keeps his knees bent and plays with leverage. He is a coordinated athlete who never loses his balance and keeps his feet vs. low blocks well. At times, however, he is robotic in his movement and does not seem natural moving and adjusting.

Q.A.B. Quick Feet C.O.D. Flexibility Coordination
6.5 6.5 6.5 6.0 6.5

COMPETITIVENESS Section Grade: 6.0
Hali is a tough football player who has displayed a willingness to battle through pain to stay on the field and has shown the willingness to throw his body into the fray to slow up plays. He has flashed the ability to crank his aggressiveness up a notch on the most important downs, but he has not consistently made the big plays when they mattered most. His overall production was good, but it tended to vary from barely adeqaute to very good and it almost always was tied directly to his level of aggressiveness and quickness reading and reacting to the play. He has the long arms, quick feet and playing strength to jolt, control and defeat blockers at the point of attack -- he can string out the outside run, shed and make tackles. His effort and playing speed show up in his consistent ability to chase down running backs in backside pursuit. He is a team player who gives a very good effort on every snap and consistently hustles and fights to make plays all over the field.

Toughness Clutch Play Production Consistency Team Player Pride/Quit
6.0 5.5 6.0 5.5 6.5 6.5

MENTAL ALERTNESS Section Grade: 5.5
Hali is a smart young man who has remarkably good technique vs. blockers (both run blocks and rushing the quarterback) for a player who did not grow up in America. The thing that holds him back most are his lack of football instincts -- he does not explode off the ball as a pass rusher and often ends up standing still trying to identify the play before he gets moving. His high level of concentration helps him to consistently play with excellent effort on every snap despite not always knowing where to go.

Learn/Retain Instincts/Reactions Concentration
6.5 5.5 6.0

STRENGTH/EXPLOSION Section Grade: 6.0
Despite being a little under-sized, Hali is a very muscular and well defined defensive end with the frame to add the necessary weight. His athleticism, competitiveness and natural strength have helped him to be durable at Penn State and those traits will continue to help him be durable in the NFL. He is naturally a very explosive athlete, but he does not show it on the field consistently. Once the play gets started, he has an explosisve closing burst to finish plays at times, but he is not explosive off the ball as an edge rusher and does not consistently explode to the ball when he should due to a lack of instincts. He has very good natural strength and when he uses his hands and plays aggressively ,he plays strong at the point of attack and can control the blocker easily. However, when he does not attack the blocker and plays up high, he does not consistently play strong at the point of attack.

Body Type Durability Explosion Play Strength
6.0 6.0 5.5 6.0

What I take from this scouting report is Hali lacks a couple of very important things, explosion off the line being #1. Lacking instincts isn't exactly something to be very excited about it. As I've said before I expect him to be an above average player but I don't think he's worth the 20th pick.

Now onto Cromarties scouting report.

Antonio Cromartie
Height: 6-2
Weight: 207
40 Speed: 4.52*
Position: Cornerback
College: Florida State
Final Grade: I 6.1


SUMMARY
Cromartie is a junior who came out early for the draft, but who definitely would have helped himself by staying for another season -- he could have proven himself as a starter, and would have been able to challenge for one of the top cornerback spots in the 2007 NFL Draft. He has exceptional size for a cornerback, and uses his strength and long arms very well to physically push around receiver -- he can re-route receivers surprisingly well. When he stays over his feet and keeps his knees bent in his backpedal, he can transition out of the pedal very quickly, can close on the receiver or pass in a flash, and uses his front arm well to break up passes. He is going to need a lot of work on fundamentals (footwork and backpedal) in order to take advantage of his size and natural athleticism in the NFL. Cromartie is going to be drafted higher than he's rated because of his height/weight/speed combination -- rather than being drafted based on his on-field performance from 2004. He will become a good starting cornerback in the NFL, but is going to need a season or two as a backup to improve his fundamentals and backpedal, and to become more consistent reading and reacting to the pass.

CRITICAL FACTORS
Athletic Ability M/M Off M/M Tight Competes Play Speed Instincts
6.5 5.5 6.5 5.5 6. 5 5.5


STRONG POINTS
Cromartie is a very good athlete, with the rare addition of excellent size to go with it. He has the quickness, hips, acceleration and playing speed to stay with receivers all over the field in tight man-to-man coverage, and he can use his long arms well to break up passes. When he backpedals with bent knees, he can plant, drive and close fast on passes in front of him. He has the hands to cut in front of the receiver to make the tough interception. He has the size and strength to physically dominate receivers in press coverage -- he can slow releases and can push receivers off their routes down the field.

WEAKNESSES
Obviously, it is a concern that Cromartie rotated with two other cornerbacks for the two starting spots in 2004, and then missed the 2005 season with an injury, so he has not proven himself as a full-time starter. He tends to stay upright and high in his backpedal too often, which leads to him struggling to transition out of the pedal to close quickly and break up passes consistently. For a cornerback with his athleticism, it is frustrating how often he gets turned around and allows receivers to get separation and make catches. He does not consistently come up quickly in run support and can be blocked out of the play too easily.

POSITIONAL FACTORS
Grade Category Comments/Description
5.5 Read & React He can read and react very quickly when he uses good technique, but he is not consistent due to bad footwork.

5.5 M/M Off He does not read receivers' routes or passes consistently, and gets turned around too often.

6.5 M/M Tight Size, strength, athleticism and playing speed make him very good in tight man-to-man coverage -- he's very physical in coverage.

6.0 Zone Coverage He generally does a good job of reading the quarterback on passes in front of him and can close and make plays on the ball.

6.0 Break & Close He has the ability to be very good, but is not consistent because of inconsistent footwork/technique.

6.5 Hips/Turn Ability He has very good hips to turn and run without losing a step -- he stays on receivers' hips down the field.

5.5 Tackling He's good when he keeps his knees bent, but gets out of control and misses some tackles he should make.

6.0 Hands - Interception He has good hands to cut in front of receivers to make tough interceptions.

5.5 Hands - Fight Blocker He gives an inconsistent effort fighting through blocks to make tackles.

6.5 Deep Speed He has the playing speed to stay right with receivers on deep routes, and he can make plays on the ball.

5.0 Return Ability He did not show anything special as a returner in games graded, but has size, strength, hands and playing speed.

5.5 Errors He gets upright and high in his backpedal, and it leads to him allowing too many catches.


ATHLETIC ABILITY Section Grade: 6.5
Cromartie is a very good athlete, but must improve a lot in order to produce at the level of his athleticism. In 2004, he rotated with Florida State's other two cornerbacks and was not a full-time starter. He has very quick feet for a cornerback -- he can accelerate to full speed quickly, and has the playing speed to stay on fast receivers' hips deep down the field. He has very good agility, and when he backpedals with his knees bent and stays over his feet, his quick feet combine with his agility so that he can transition out of the pedal quickly to close on passes fast. He flashes an explosive closing burst to make plays and break up passes. He has good hip flexibility which helps him to flip his hips and turn and run without losing a step vs. fast receivers. Overall, he definitely has very good natural athleticism, but he does not consistently show it on the field because his backpedal is so raw and choppy.

Q.A.B. Quick Feet C.O.D. Flexibility Coordination
6.5 6.5 6.0 6.0 6.5


COMPETITIVENESS Section Grade: 5.5
Cromartie has shown toughness playing physical in coverage and tackling bigger ball carriers. His overall production is tough to fairly grade, because in 2004, he was not even a full-time starter, and then he missed the 2005 season with a torn ACL. But when he played in 2004, at times he produced at a very high level. His footwork/backpedal need a lot of work in order for him to play at the level he is capable of -- right now, his pedal is very raw, choppy and high, which hinders his ability to consistently transition out of the pedal to make plays on the ball. His lack of playing experience shows in his inability to consistently read the receivers' routes. He gets turned around and allows slower receivers to get separation too easily. He has displayed good commitment to the team in his willingness to consistently play physical with receivers, and to tackle ball carriers in run support. When he loses a step in coverage, he never quits fighting and competing to get back into position, and he does not hesitate to grab and shove a receiver to keep him from getting away.

Toughness Clutch Play Production Consistency Team Player Pride/Quit
6.0 5.0 5.0 5.0 6.0 6.0

MENTAL ALERTNESS Section Grade: 5.5
Cromartie is a smart cornerback, and has shown it with his very good press technique (and flashes of a good backpedal), but it is concerning that his tackling technique is so raw. He generally has good instincts, but does not always read the play well, and struggles to react quickly when he gets up high in his backpedal. He did not consistently show the ability to maintain his concentration, which is why his footwork and backpedal are so raw and choppy at times, and why he does not consistently read and react to the play well.

Learn/Retain Instincts/Reactions Concentration
6.0 5.5 5.5

STRENGTH/EXPLOSION Section Grade: 6.5
Cromartie has exceptional size at over 6-foot-2 and nearly 210 pounds -- on 2004 film, he definitely looked the part of a big, physical cornerback. While he has the size, flexibility and athleticism to most likely be a durable NFL cornerback, he never even completed a college season as a full-time starter, and missed the 2005 season due to a torn ACL, so his durability will be a question until he proves it. He is a naturally explosive athlete, and when he plays over his feet and transitions smoothly, he shows an explosive closing burst to make plays and break up passes. When he gets up high in his backpedal, he struggles to change directions and react and close explosively. He has outstanding strength for a cornerback, and can physically dominate a receiver -- he can really slow a receiver's release and can re-route receivers with his physical use of hands in tight man-to-man coverage.

Body Type Durability Explosion Play Strength
8.0 4.0 6.0 7.5

The thing I see here is this, all of Cromarties weakness can be fixed through coaching. When your main weakness is your backpeddle that's just simply a coaching thing. Hali's weaknesses are just simply thing's he doesn't have, quick burst off the line, instincts.

Hali is more polished and ready to play right now, but this team isn't Tamba Hali away from a good defense. I think Cromarties upside is to much greater to take Hali over him.

If you want to read these or other reports they're on NFL.com.

htismaqe
04-18-2006, 07:42 AM
Cromartie's weaknesses can be fixed through coaching.

Unfortunately, we don't have that as a strength.

Mecca
04-18-2006, 07:46 AM
Cromartie's weaknesses can be fixed through coaching.

Unfortunately, we don't have that as a strength.

Maybe that will change.....all of Cromarties weakness are pretty easily fixable.

Only problem I have with Hali as a first rounder is his scouting report basically says he is what he is and has very little upside to be much better.

htismaqe
04-18-2006, 07:58 AM
Maybe that will change.....all of Cromarties weakness are pretty easily fixable.

Only problem I have with Hali as a first rounder is his scouting report basically says he is what he is and has very little upside to be much better.

Well, after watching him through the Big 10 season, I'd have to say getting what Hali "is" would be a HUGE improvement for this defensive line.

ct
04-18-2006, 08:00 AM
Well, after watching him through the Big 10 season, I'd have to say getting what Hali "is" would be a HUGE improvement for this defensive line.

:clap:

ct
04-18-2006, 08:04 AM
Article on Cromartie and CBs...only listed the comments for the top5 to keep it concise.
***

http://www.nfl.com/draft/analysis/expert/brandt/cb

Analysis by position: Cornerbacks

Position-by-position: CB

By Gil Brandt
NFL.com Senior Analyst

(April 17, 2006) -- How important are cornerbacks in the NFL? On March 4, 2005, the Carolina Panthers gave Ken Lucas $8.4 million to sign as a free agent with an additional $4.5 million due this year. That same day, the Cleveland Browns signed Gary Baxter with a $9 million signing bonus. One day earlier, on March 3, the Dallas Cowboys gave Anthony Henry $10 million to sign with an additional $2 million in roster bonuses.

Because of the one-back and multiple-receiver sets, teams feel it's important to have three cornerbacks on the field a high percentage of the time in order to match up against all the fast receivers. Some teams played three cornerbacks as much as 65 percent of the time, with the league average being about 57 percent of the time.


SIZE AND SPEED
Due to the increasing number of tall receivers in the NFL, height has become an important factor in drafting cornerbacks. Of the 40 receivers at this year's Scouting Combine, the average height was 6-foot-1 1/8 and the average weight was 205 pounds. Thirteen receivers were 6-2 or taller. The average speed of the 54 defensive backs (cornerbacks and safeties) was 4.52 in the 40-yard dash with an average vertical jump of 38 inches. Tye Hill of Clemson was the fastest defensive back with a 40 time of 4.30. Nine players ran 4.40 or under in the 40.
In 1996 and 1997, we had 33 cornerbacks selected in the first three rounds. In the last two drafts (2004 and 2005), that number increased to 42. Nine of the 42 were selected in the first round compared to seven in the 1996 and 1997 drafts combined. Over the past 10 NFL drafts, 40 cornerbacks have been selected in the first round and 133 have been picked in rounds two and three. Only one position -- wide receiver with 45 -- has had more first-round picks over this period.

The feeling around the league is that you can never have too many good cornerbacks, especially considering how the game is played these days. In the 2005 draft, the Broncos' first three picks were cornerbacks. In the 2002 draft, the Eagles drafted cornerbacks in the first two rounds, even though both of the Eagles' corners (Bobby Taylor and Troy Vincent) were selected to the Pro Bowl the previous season.

In 2004, the top two players in the NFL's salary-cap numbers were cornerbacks Antoine Winfield ($12.4 million) and Ty Law ($9.6 million), cap numbers that were higher that year than Brett Favre ($9,533,333) and Peyton Manning ($8,301,666).

Here are my rankings for cornerbacks.

1. Michael Huff, Texas (6-0, 204, 4.37)
Huff had a complete workout at the Combine. He ran two 40s in 4.34 and 4.37. He had a 40-inch vertical jump, a 10-foot-5 long jump and did 21 bench presses. He ran a 3.96 short shuttle and 6.68 three-cone drill on March 22 at the Texas Pro Day. Huff played safety, cornerback and wide receiver in high school and also ran track. He finished seventh in the 100 meters at the 2000 Junior Nationals. Huff was redshirted at Texas in 2001 but started 50 games during the next four years and earned the Jim Thorpe Award after the 2005 season. He can play corner or safety in the NFL. He played mostly strong safety at Texas and returned four interceptions for touchdowns during his career -- a school record. He has great versatility, is an outstanding blitzer with great instincts and reactions, will tackle, and has awareness and recovery speed. Huff should start his first year and play at a high level for a long time. He is smart with great character. He has a brother, Marcus King, who completed a four-year career at Missouri and most likely will be signed as a free agent by some team.

2. Jimmy Williams, Virginia Tech (6-2 3/8, 213, 4.46)
Williams did not work out at the Combine but did everything at his Pro Day on March 16. He ran his two 40s in 4.41 and 4.46 on a fast surface. He had a 33-inch vertical jump, a 9-foot-8 long jump, and did 12 bench presses. He ran a 4.15 short shuttle and a 6.69 three-cone drill. Williams played quarterback, wide receiver, safety and linebacker in high school and made all-district for two years in basketball. He played but did not start as a true freshman at Virginia Tech in 2002, then started at free safety in 2003 and at cornerback in 2004 and 2005. Williams plays very aggressively, is physical with good instincts and range and has good closing speed on receivers. He is a very good blitzer and can play press coverage. He does not seem to always be focused and will take chances and get beat. His hands are not real good with eight interceptions in three years. Williams could become an outstanding player or could make you wonder why you drafted him. He needs to improve his attitude.

3. Antonio Cromartie, Florida State (6-2 1/8, 208, 4.49)
Cromartie had a complete workout at the Combine, running his 40s in 4.47 and 4.52 with tight legs. He had a 38-inch vertical jump and an 11-foot long jump. He worked out again on March 16 at Florida State's Pro Day and ran 4.43 and 4.46 in the 40 with a 3.98 short shuttle and a 7.03 three-cone drill. Cromartie played wide receiver and cornerback in high school, was a star sprinter on the track team and started for the basketball team. He was the USA Today Defensive Player of the Year after his senior year in high school. Cromartie played as a true freshman at Florida State in 2003. He played as a nickelback in 2004 and missed all of 2005 with a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee. Cromartie is a big cornerback with great ball skills and has exceptional athletic ability for his size. He is a young player, turning 22 years old this April. He has the talent to be a Pro Bowl player, but there are questions about whether he is too big to play corner and will the knee injury affect his play in the future.

4. Tye Hill, Clemson (5-9 5/8, 185, 4.33)
Hill had a complete workout at the Combine but did not lift. He ran his two 40s in 4.30 and 4.35, had a 41-inch vertical jump and a 10-foot-9 long jump. He ran a 4.01 short shuttle and a 6.63 three-cone drill. Hill was a running back in high school and the state champion in the 100 meters. He has run track at Clemson and won ACC titles in the 60 meters indoors and the 100 meters outdoors. He was redshirted in 2001 at Clemson and played running back in 2002. He moved to cornerback in 2003 and started the next three years. Hill has outstanding speed and acceleration for the position, but his hands are not real good (and are small at 8 3/8 inches). He will tackle and had 21 pass breakups in 2005 with three interceptions. He is said to have marginal practice habits and there is some question about his love for the game. He plays a lot like Darrent Williams, a second-round pick by the Denver Broncos last year, but he does not return kicks.

5. Jason Allen, Tennessee (6-0 7/8, 209, 4.44)
Allen ran and jumped at the Combine, but he did not do field drills because of an injured hip. He ran his two 40s in 4.39 and 4.47, had a 39-inch vertical jump, 10-foot-11 long jump, 3.81 short shuttle and 6.75 three-cone drill. He did position drills on March 15 at Tennessee's Pro Day. Allen was a high school running back in Alabama and was named the Alabama Player of the Year in 2001. He played as a true freshman at Tennessee in 2002 as a defensive back and played both cornerback and free safety in 2003 and 2004. He suffered a dislocated hip against Georgia in the sixth game of 2005 and missed the rest of the season. Allen has the size and speed to play the cornerback position. He has good ball skills, will tackle and has good change of direction. He has had a history of injuries with surgeries on both his shoulders and hip. If he can't play corner, he will be able to play safety. He is a good player if healthy.

6. Kelly Jennings, Miami, Fla. (5-10 7/8, 178, 4.43)
7. Johnathan Joseph, South Carolina (5-11, 193, 4.36)
8. Richard Marshall, Fresno State (5-11 1/8, 189, 4.46)
9. Ashton Youboty, Ohio State (5-11, 189, 4.50)
10. Cedric Griffin, Texas (6-0 1/8, 199, 4.54)
11. David Pittman, Northwestern State, La. (5-11, 182, 4.52)
12. DeMario Minter, Georgia (5-11 1/8, 190, 4.55)
13. Alan Zemaitis, Penn State (6-1, 194, 4.60)
14. Will Blackmon, Boston College (6-0, 198, 4.49)
15. Charles Gordon, Kansas (5-10 1/8, 183, 4.63)
16. Tim Jennings, Georgia (5-7, 185, 4.36)
17. Dee Webb, Florida (5-10, 183, 4.45)
18. Derrick Martin, Wyoming (5-10, 202, 4.52)
19. John Walker, USC (5-11, 205, 4.66)
20. Anwar Phillips, Penn State (5-11 5/8, 193, 4.61)
21. Gerrick McPhearson, Maryland (5-10 1/8, 198, 4.46)
22. Marcus Maxey, Miami, Fla. (6-1, 196, 4.49)
23. Marcus Hudson, North Carolina State (6-1 1/8, 194, 4.63)
Wild Card - Devin Hester, Miami, Fla. (5-10 5/8, 190, 4.46)


DID YOU KNOW?
Gerrick McPhearson holds the Maryland school record for the 60-meter dash (6.73), breaking the mark held by Renaldo Nehemiah.

Darrell Hunter (Miami, Ohio) holds the record for the fastest 40-yard dash in the school's football history.

David Pittman of Northwestern (La.) was the only Division I-AA player to play in this year's Senior Bowl.

Ashton Youboty of Ohio State was born in Liberia and moved to the United States at four years of age.

The only defensive back ever drafted No. 1 overall was Gary Glick by Pittsburgh in 1956. He played safety.

Since 1996, the highest a cornerback has been drafted is third when Shawn Springs was picked by Seattle.

Mecca
04-18-2006, 08:05 AM
I remember this guy named Erasmus James putting up some pretty good stats in the Big 10...how'd he fair last year?

If we wanna trade down and take him, I'm ok with that if we're picking up significant picks. I just don't think he's worth 20 right now.

As bad as our line is I think there's alot of guys that could immediatly improve it, some of which won't go till the 2nd-3rd round.

Mecca
04-18-2006, 08:16 AM
Now here is Daryl Tapps scouting report.........

Darryl Tapp
Height: 6-1
Weight: 251
40 Speed: 4.92*
Position: Defensive End
College: Virginia Tech
Final Grade: G 5.8

SUMMARY
Tapp was a very frustrating player to evaluate because he flashes good pass- rush skills once the play has started, but his inability to consistently burst off the ball will limit his ability to threaten the corner in the NFL. A very smart football player in terms of playing with leverage, getting good body position and using hands very well to jolt offensive linemen. Holds his ground at the point of attack against offensive linemen on run blocks -- does a good job of stringing out the outside run, and can disengage and make the tackle on runs to his side. Has the quick hands and feet to change directions in a hurry, and can defeat the offensive tackle's pass blocks when he has space to work with. Going to have trouble using hands as well in the NFL because he has short arms for a defensive end. Does a very good job of making the play and disrupting others when teams try to block him with a tight end or running back on backside runs. Overall, the jury is out on Tapp's ability to be an impact defensive end in the NFL, and he will probably be drafted much higher than he is rated. However, in a season or two he will develop into a solid NFL defensive end that can be a starter or an excellent backup that can contribute by lining up all over the defensive line.

CRITICAL FACTORS
Size Initial Quickness Play Strength Competes Play Speed Instincts
5.5 5.5 6.5 6.0 6.0 5.5



STRONG POINTS
Tapp is a strong and compitive defensive end who consistently plays solid at the point of attack. Does a great job of playing with knees bent, good leverage and a wide base, getting arm extension to hold his ground against run blocks. Does a good job of coming down the line of scrimmage and making tackles in backside pursuit. When teams try to reach block him, Tapp gets inside the block, keeps blocker on his back and chases down the running back in pursuit. Has quick hands and feet to defeat the offensive tackle with a wide variety of pass-rush moves -- can beat offensive tackle with slap and swim moves, or can drive him backward as a bull rusher. Once he is moving, Tapp has the quickness to beat the offensive tackles around the corner and has a good closing burst to quarterback



WEAKNESSES
Tapp is a short and stocky defensive end who lacks the linear build wanted in an edge rusher. The biggest concern in regards to Tapp's ability to pressure the quarterback is his inconsistent burst off the ball at the snap -- too often he is the last defensive lineman moving at the snap and will not be able to burst around NFL offensive tackles. On plays away when Tapp does not think he can make the tackle, he has a tendency to quit chasing hard after the ball in pursuit. Does not use his hands well to protect his legs and can be cut to the ground way too easily.



POSITIONAL FACTORS
Grade Category Comments/Description
6.5 Read & React Once the play begins he consistently reads and reacts to the play quickly and has quickness to get to the ball.
5.5 Initial Quickness Has flashed quickness off ball, but more often than not he is the last defensive lineman moving at the snap.
6.5 Play Strength He has the strength to hold ground and string out runs at him, and can drive the offensive tackle backwards with his bull rush.
6.0 Use of Hands Good variety of pass-rush moves, gets good arm extension against run blocks, but does not deal with low blocks well.
6.0 Shed Blocker Strength and use of hands helps him to take on, hold ground and shed blocks surprisingly well.
6.0 Run at Him Consistently holds ground at point of attack, gets good arm extension and can shed to make the tackle.
6.0 Pursuit/Range Usually does good job coming down line of scrimmage and makes tackles, but struggles to deal with low blocks.
6.0 Tackling Ability to bend knees and good use of hands allows him to consistently break down and tackle well.
6.0 Closing Burst Consistently has shown an explosive closing burst to the quarterback or ball carrier to finish plays.
6.0 Power Rush Lack of explosion off the ball hurts at times, but he stays low and jolts offensive linemen backward surprisingly well.
5.5 Speed Rush Once moving, he has quickness around corner and can burst back under offensive tackle, but is not consistent off the ball.
5.5 Errors Needs to get off ball more consistently and has to protect legs better against cut blocks.



ATHLETIC ABILITY Section Grade: 6.0
Tapp is a good athlete which helped him overcome his lack of height to be a productive defensive end at Virginia Tech. Has very quick feet, and once he gets moving, has the burst to threaten the corner as a speed rusher and get to the quarterback. Despite foot quickness, Tapp is usually the last defensive lineman moving at the snap, so he does not have the ball explosion. Agility and foot quickness lets him change directions quickly and he can burst inside to beat the OT in the gap between tackles and guards. Does a good job of playing with knees bent and leverage, which helps him play strong at the point of attack against blocks. Shows his coordination and athleticism popping up off the turf very quickly when he gets cut to the ground by cut blocks.

Q.A.B. Quick Feet C.O.D. Flexibility Coordination
6.0 6.5 6.0 6.5 6.5



COMPETITIVENESS Section Grade: 6.0
Tapp is a tough defensive end who consistently has shown a willingness to play tough and aggressive at the point of attack against much bigger offensive tackles. While Tapp is usually the last defensive lineman moving at the snap, on the most important downs he gets off the ball more consistently and usually finds a way to disrupt or make the play. Overall production is generally good, but he is not consistent and goes through stretches where he is not productive. Consistent when using his hands against the offensive tackle block, and it helps him to get a push when he power rushes. Holds ground on runs right at him. When teams run away from him and leave him unblocked on the backside or try to block him with a tight end, he gets started down the line of scrimmage quickly and has the speed to chase down the ball carrier to make the tackle. Pretty much a competitive team player who gives a very good effort on every snap, but at times when he does not think he is going to have a chance to make the play, will quit chasing after the ball carrier a short distance.

Toughness Clutch Play Production Consistency Team Player Pride/Quit
6.5 6.5 6.0 5.5 6.0 6.0



MENTAL ALERTNESS Section Grade: 5.5
Tapp is a very smart football player and it is clear when you see how well he uses hands against offensive tackle run blocks. Has good body position and technique to string out the run, and has knowledge of how to get skinny as a pass rusher. Displays very good instincts to identify the play and find the ball once the play has begun, but he does not consistently sense or anticipate the snap, which leads to him often being the last defensive lineman moving at the snap, limiting his ability to burst off the ball and beat the offensive tackle around the corner. Does a good job of maintaining his focus and concentration on every snap, which helps him consistently play tough and strong at the point of attack against big run blockers.

Learn/Retain Instincts/Reactions Concentration
6.5 5.5 6.0



STRENGTH/EXPLOSION Section Grade: 6.0
At barely 6-foot-1, Tapp is definitely shorter than ideal for a defensive end, but he is very well built with the thick lower body that you expect to see on a 285-pound defensive end. Has been durable at Virginia Tech, and despite being short, his thick lower body and natural strength gives him the tools to maintain durability in the NFL. Tapp's explosiveness is frustrating because he consistently shows an explosive closing burst to the quarterback to finish the sack, but he lacks the explosive burst off the ball to consistently beat NFL offensive tackles off the ball. Does a very good job of playing with bent knees and leverage at the point of attack, and uses his hands very well to jolt the offensive tackle. Against the run he can get arm extension, strings out the play and makes the tackle. As pass rusher, he can drive the offensive tackle backward into the quarterback's lap.

Body Type Durability Explosion Play Strength
5.5 6.0 5.5 6.5


If you compare that to Hali it is virtually the same.......So why take a player in the first when the exact same player is going to be there with your next pick?

htismaqe
04-18-2006, 08:28 AM
I remember this guy named Erasmus James putting up some pretty good stats in the Big 10...how'd he fair last year?

If we wanna trade down and take him, I'm ok with that if we're picking up significant picks. I just don't think he's worth 20 right now.

As bad as our line is I think there's alot of guys that could immediatly improve it, some of which won't go till the 2nd-3rd round.

Well, to be fair, I told everyone here that Erasmus James would do exactly what he did - nothing. Erasmus James is much more like Kiwi than Hali.

ct
04-18-2006, 08:44 AM
I do not read the same thing about Hali and Tapp. Only similarity I see is the 'lack of burst at the snap'. While Hali is praised for consistent effort, Tapp is dogged for quitting on plays. Tapp is also too too small to play DE, in my opinion.

Mecca
04-18-2006, 08:45 AM
I do not read the same thing about Hali and Tapp. Only similarity I see is the 'lack of burst at the snap'. While Hali is praised for consistent effort, Tapp is dogged for quitting on plays. Tapp is also too too small to play DE, in my opinion.

In a cover 2 he's not.......

Mr. Laz
04-18-2006, 09:55 AM
cromartie wasn't a full starter when healthy and missed last year due to injury.


this sends red flags up all over the place for me ...


Hali is a hard working guy with good athletic skill but who doesn't have outstanding workout numbers.



for the chiefs ... Hali is the pick imo


they can't afford to take the higher risk/higher reward guy this year.

ct
04-18-2006, 10:00 AM
cromartie wasn't a full starter when healthy and missed last year due to injury.


this sends red flags up all over the place for me ...


Hali is a hard working guy with good athletic skill but who doesn't have outstanding workout numbers.



for the chiefs ... Hali is the pick imo


they can't afford to take the higher risk/higher reward guy this year.

We've been drafting big upside project type players for years, and where the hell has that gotten us? Give me a proven player, thank you!

jspchief
04-18-2006, 10:03 AM
cromartie wasn't a full starter when healthy and missed last year due to injury.


this sends red flags up all over the place for me ...


Hali is a hard working guy with good athletic skill but who doesn't have outstanding workout numbers.



for the chiefs ... Hali is the pick imo


they can't afford to take the higher risk/higher reward guy this year.If you're picking Cromartie, you're putting a lot of stock in what you think he can be, rather than what he's shown he can be. I think it's a high risk/high reward pick. You're betting that those flashes of athleticism will translate to NFL football talent.

I'm not sure it makes sense for the place this team is in right now. We're not desperate enough or solid enough to justify that risk, IMO.

I wouldn't hate the pick, but I don't think he'd be my first choice.

Mr. Laz
04-18-2006, 10:26 AM
If you're picking Cromartie, you're putting a lot of stock in what you think he can be, rather than what he's shown he can be. I think it's a high risk/high reward pick. You're betting that those flashes of athleticism will translate to NFL football talent.

I'm not sure it makes sense for the place this team is in right now. We're not desperate enough or solid enough to justify that risk, IMO.

I wouldn't hate the pick, but I don't think he'd be my first choice.
yea, and we've shown very little ability to bring out the most in these kinds of players as well.

now, i realize we have a new coaching staff ... which gives us hope.


but are we really ready to say "this coaching staff can develop a hidden gem" without seeing anything from them first?

RedThat
04-18-2006, 10:35 AM
If you're picking Cromartie, you're putting a lot of stock in what you think he can be, rather than what he's shown he can be. I think it's a high risk/high reward pick. You're betting that those flashes of athleticism will translate to NFL football talent.

I'm not sure it makes sense for the place this team is in right now. We're not desperate enough or solid enough to justify that risk, IMO.

I wouldn't hate the pick, but I don't think he'd be my first choice.

so basically what you're saying is, any team that picks Cromartie is drafting him based on upside?

I just want to make sure I understand your post.

Mr. Laz
04-18-2006, 10:37 AM
so basically what you're saying is, any team that picks Cromartie is drafting him based on upside?
considering that he's only started 1 game in his college career, i don't see how anyone could be drafting him based on anything else.

beer bacon
04-18-2006, 10:39 AM
so basically what you're saying is, any team that picks Cromartie is drafting him based on upside?

I just want to make sure I understand your post.

The team that drafts Cromartie should already have a solid secondary, so they won't be dead in the water if Cromartie isn't an impact player this year. You can't expect guy with almost no real experience to come in and start his rookie season.

htismaqe
04-18-2006, 10:45 AM
yea, and we've shown very little ability to bring out the most in these kinds of players as well.

now, i realize we have a new coaching staff ... which gives us hope.


but are we really ready to say "this coaching staff can develop a hidden gem" without seeing anything from them first?

Nice to see you agree with me. You're getting smarter by the day. :D

htismaqe
04-18-2006, 10:46 AM
The team that drafts Cromartie should already have a solid secondary, so they won't be dead in the water if Cromartie isn't an impact player this year. You can't expect guy with almost no real experience to come in and start his rookie season.

Precious few rookie CB's make an immediate impact, especially one's with his background...

ct
04-18-2006, 10:47 AM
Holy shit, hell has in fact frozen over.

RedThat
04-18-2006, 10:53 AM
cromartie wasn't a full starter when healthy and missed last year due to injury.


this sends red flags up all over the place for me ...

Oh yes. I hear where your coming from. Injured, lot of time off, no football played in over a year, not good. He still has question marks about his injury, and his recovery/rehabilation process, not good. Very risky pick imo. I think whomever takes him, I applaud them for having the guts to do so, and I think they will have the most talented CB in this years draft. But, I also think he is a work in progress, and will be drafted based on his upside. Personally, I think Cromartie was better off going back to college for his senior year to re-fine and re-tool his skills. not only that, but at least he can get some football under his belt , and possibly make himself a top 10 pick. I like the guy and all, but not playing football in over a year, and being injured quite a bit doesn't sit well with me, and the guy is a junior. Makes this a bit of a risky pick.


they can't afford to take the higher risk/higher reward guy this year.

I don't know if it's just me, but, I hear these statements a lot especially when it comes to drafting corners.

:shrug:

RedThat
04-18-2006, 10:59 AM
The team that drafts Cromartie should already have a solid secondary, so they won't be dead in the water if Cromartie isn't an impact player this year. You can't expect guy with almost no real experience to come in and start his rookie season.

That makes sense, I mean, I don't see why a team would start him right away given the fact he has missed well over a year of college football. Plus, he is also a junior coming out of college.

*Not playing at the collegiate level in over a year, and being injured a lot, plus having to make that transition to play CB in the NFL is taking quite a bit of a leap. I mean this all adds up, and makes a big difference. With all that being said, I don't expect Cromartie to start whoever takes him.

jspchief
04-18-2006, 11:06 AM
so basically what you're saying is, any team that picks Cromartie is drafting him based on upside?

I just want to make sure I understand your post.Yeah, perceived upside. They are basing their evaluation of him off a pretty small sample.

It would be a little like watching Boerigter in '02, and determining he was going to be a star WR based on those few plays.

I just question if anyone has really seen enough to determine that he's a better CB than some of the other guys out there.

Ultra Peanut
04-18-2006, 02:32 PM
for the chiefs ... Hali is the pick imoI hope so.

Mecca
04-18-2006, 07:43 PM
Oh yes. I hear where your coming from. Injured, lot of time off, no football played in over a year, not good. He still has question marks about his injury, and his recovery/rehabilation process, not good. Very risky pick imo. I think whomever takes him, I applaud them for having the guts to do so, and I think they will have the most talented CB in this years draft. But, I also think he is a work in progress, and will be drafted based on his upside. Personally, I think Cromartie was better off going back to college for his senior year to re-fine and re-tool his skills. not only that, but at least he can get some football under his belt , and possibly make himself a top 10 pick. I like the guy and all, but not playing football in over a year, and being injured quite a bit doesn't sit well with me, and the guy is a junior. Makes this a bit of a risky pick.




I don't know if it's just me, but, I hear these statements a lot especially when it comes to drafting corners.

:shrug:

In fairness to Cromartie he's coming out because he needs the money. His grandmother had a stroke and his mom has cancer.

Mecca
04-18-2006, 10:08 PM
That makes sense, I mean, I don't see why a team would start him right away given the fact he has missed well over a year of college football. Plus, he is also a junior coming out of college.

*Not playing at the collegiate level in over a year, and being injured a lot, plus having to make that transition to play CB in the NFL is taking quite a bit of a leap. I mean this all adds up, and makes a big difference. With all that being said, I don't expect Cromartie to start whoever takes him.

He's going to start because he's likely going to be more talented than all the CB's on his team save 1 on some teams.

I really dislike tossing out there "rookie corners don't contribute". So are you basically trying to say you should never draft a corner in the first round? Most good defenses have highly drafted corners.

Let's face reality here, the Chiefs are not 1 player from the Superbowl. They're not 1 player from a good defense, they're numerous players away. This team is old this team needs players for the future. Players to build your future around, Cromartie has the ability to be a cornerstone for a franchise, Tamba Hali simply doesn't. Hali is a nice player and will probably be a contributing starter but he's not a player you go "this is one of the guys we're building our team around". Alot of you have had it beat into your head that you don't need corners if you have a Dline. For that to work you have to have an excellent Dline. Jared Allen, Tamba Hali and no DT's isn't going to get it done.

Simple as this Antonio Cromartie is the guy with the brighter NFL future it's just alot of you guys are to scared to want to pull the trigger. I hope I never get to the point where I have such little faith that I want the less talented player cause he's "safer".

jspchief
04-19-2006, 06:52 AM
He's going to start because he's likely going to be more talented than all the CB's on his team save 1 on some teams.

I really dislike tossing out there "rookie corners don't contribute". So are you basically trying to say you should never draft a corner in the first round? Most good defenses have highly drafted corners.
There's a difference between saying he won't contribute much in his rookie year, and saying you shouldn't draft him.

The reality is, most (not all) rookie CBs do not make much of a contribution in their first year. They either take a beating in a starting CB role, or play nickel. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Good CB prospects are worth the investment down the road.

If we take a CB, there's a pretty good chance that he will have very little impact on our defense this year, regardless of which CB we take. It may pay off down the road, but if you're one of the people that thinks that last year's 10 win team is close, then you probably would like something other than a CB in this year's first round.

Cromartie is probably even less likely to make a quick impact, because he's coming off a 1 year layoff, and has very limited experience as a starting CB. They guy may be a stud somewhere down the road, but I don't think he's going to be much help this year. For any team.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 06:57 AM
There's a difference between saying he won't contribute much in his rookie year, and saying you shouldn't draft him.

The reality is, most (not all) rookie CBs do not make much of a contribution in their first year. They either take a beating in a starting CB role, or play nickel. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be drafted in the first round. Good CB prospects are worth the investment down the road.

If we take a CB, there's a pretty good chance that he will have very little impact on our defense this year, regardless of which CB we take. It may pay off down the road, but if you're one of the people that thinks that last year's 10 win team is close, then you probably would like something other than a CB in this year's first round.

Cromartie is probably even less likely to make a quick impact, because he's coming off a 1 year layoff, and has very limited experience as a starting CB. They guy may be a stud somewhere down the road, but I don't think he's going to be much help this year. For any team.

Well that is where we differ because I don't think we're close. I'm thinking about where we're going to be in 2-4 years. Our team is old and I feel we need cornerstone players to build around.

jspchief
04-19-2006, 07:04 AM
Well that is where we differ because I don't think we're close. I'm thinking about where we're going to be in 2-4 years. Our team is old and I feel we need cornerstone players to build around.We don't differ in that opinion as much as you might think. I'm not particularly opposed to taking a CB. I'm not a big Cromartie fan because I think there's too much unknown with him, but I'm not opposed to drafting a CB.

I would prefer a safety, mainly due to the age of our current safeties, and my feelings on what a stud safety adds to a defense.

I haven't locked onto any one particular player or position. I'm a fan of Huff, but know he's not likely to be there. But mostly I just want the best player that fills a need that is available. If that happens to be a WR, DT, CB, DE, S, or whatever, I don't care. Just let him be a good one.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 07:09 AM
I don't think the value is going to be right at our pick to take a safety in the 1st round. I've broken it down to Broderick Bunkley even though I doubt we'll have a shot at him, Tye Hill and Antonio Cromartie as the 3 best possible values at where we pick for what our defense is going to be.

BigChiefFan
04-19-2006, 07:11 AM
3 1/2 years as a starter vs. 1 game as a starter. I think it's pretty evident who the safer pick is for us.

jspchief
04-19-2006, 07:13 AM
I don't think the value is going to be right at our pick to take a safety in the 1st round. I've broken it down to Broderick Bunkley even though I doubt we'll have a shot at him, Tye Hill and Antonio Cromartie as the 3 best possible values at where we pick for what our defense is going to be.I think you're probably right about the safety.

Regardless, I'm fairly confident that we'll have some good players to choose from. This draft seems like it will have a lot of options at #20. It's just a matter of picking the right one.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 07:14 AM
Safer isnt' always better...........How about a quote from a post of mine on the previous page.

<B>Simple as this Antonio Cromartie is the guy with the brighter NFL future it's just alot of you guys are to scared to want to pull the trigger. I hope I never get to the point where I have such little faith that I want the less talented player cause he's "safer".</B>

jspchief
04-19-2006, 07:19 AM
Safer isnt' always better...........How about a quote from a post of mine on the previous page.

Simple as this Antonio Cromartie is the guy with the brighter NFL future it's just alot of you guys are to scared to want to pull the trigger. I hope I never get to the point where I have such little faith that I want the less talented player cause he's "safer".The problem is, you're declaring Cromartie's future to be so bright off of very little evidence. You don't know that he's more talented, you just think he might be.

Like I said in an earlier thread, it's like calling Boerigter a stud WR after watching the second half of the '02 season. Hell, Cromartie's basically a CB version of Craphonso Thorpe. There can be a big difference between what everyone thinks he's supposed to be, and what he really will be.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 07:23 AM
The problem is, you're declaring Cromartie's future to be so bright off of very little evidence. You don't know that he's more talented, you just think he might be.

Like I said in an earlier thread, it's like calling Boerigter a stud WR after watching the second half of the '02 season. Hell, Cromartie's basically a CB version of Craphonso Thorpe. There can be a big difference between what everyone thinks he's supposed to be, and what he really will be.

Take a look at the Cromartie thread I posted from the USA today the one with Deion in the title.

I think he's to talented and to driven to be good to not succeed. I think mixing his pure talent with his drive will make him an elite CB in the NFL. I just think he's got the mix, talent, attitude, drive.

If there was the kind of film on the guy that would make him safe. We wouldn't be sniffing him in this draft he'd be gone by pick 10.

BigChiefFan
04-19-2006, 07:29 AM
Read the summary of Cromartie that YOU posted...

He will become a good starting cornerback in the NFL, but is going to need a season or two as a backup to improve his fundamentals and backpedal, and to become more consistent reading and reacting to the pass.



Again 3 1/2 years as a STARTER vs. ONE game as a starter. Both players could help us, so why not take the safer pick? I think you have based your sole argument on Cromartie based on his 40 time and not his experience. I'd be real surprised to see him go before Hali in this draft.

Also, it's pretty evident(at least to me) that we won't be taking a CB in the 1st round with the recent Lenny Walls and Chris Johnson's signings.

htismaqe
04-19-2006, 07:31 AM
If Jimmy Williams falls, the value will absolutely be there to take a safety with our pick...

jspchief
04-19-2006, 07:33 AM
If Jimmy Williams falls, the value will absolutely be there to take a safety with our pick...And I would love to have Williams at safety.

My one problem is that he seems pretty adamant about wanting to play corner. I know he won't neccessarily get to choose where he lines up, but I worry that his attitude about it will affect his effort. I still think it's probably worth it.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 07:34 AM
Read the summary of Cromartie that YOU posted...

He will become a good starting cornerback in the NFL, but is going to need a season or two as a backup to improve his fundamentals and backpedal, and to become more consistent reading and reacting to the pass.



Again 3 1/2 years as a STARTER vs. ONE game as a starter. Both players could help us, so why not take the safer pick? I think you have based your sole argument on Cromartie based on his 40 time and not his experience. I'd be real surprised to see him go before Hali in this draft.

Also, it's pretty evident(at least to me) that we won't be taking a CB in the 1st round with the recent Lenny Walls and Chris Johnson's signings.

ROFL I seriously hope the Chiefs don't think that. Lenny Walls can start for a few games if a guy they draft isn't ready. Chris Johnson, Kevin Garrett and all these other corners they signed are going to be battling with Julian Battle, Alphonzo Hodge and Benny Sapp for the last 2 CB spots on the roster.

I like Cromartie because everytime I've seen him play I've come away extremely impressed. In one of the other threads I point out the minute I saw the plays he made against the Canes I wanted him in a Chiefs uniform. He looked like the best player on the field between FSU and Miami as a RS freshman. I find that extremely impressive. Ever since then I've been a huge backer of his but never thought we'd be bad enough to touch him, well his injury has changed that so I want us to pick him.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 07:35 AM
If Jimmy Williams falls, the value will absolutely be there to take a safety with our pick...

If he's willing to play safety sure, he could fall considering he's one of the ones who's considered to have "character issues". I have a really hard time thinking the Cowboys wouldn't pick him if he did start falling though.

htismaqe
04-19-2006, 07:59 AM
If he's willing to play safety sure, he could fall considering he's one of the ones who's considered to have "character issues". I have a really hard time thinking the Cowboys wouldn't pick him if he did start falling though.

Yeah, the Cowboys would probably jump on him in a heartbeat. Of course if they do, that means Whitner falls. The problem with Whitner is that I almost think he'd be a better SS in our defense...

milkman
04-19-2006, 08:04 AM
So the whole premise of your argument for Cromartie vs. Hali is that Cromartie has huge potential, while Hali is as good as he's going to get.


Hali is an inexperienced football player, who lacks football instincts, and basically the scouts, and you, have determined that there isn't much of a chance for him to develop those instints with experience.


What a load of unmitigated crap.

ChiefsCountry
04-19-2006, 08:08 AM
A good pass rush is better than a good secondary.

BigChiefFan
04-19-2006, 08:30 AM
ROFL I seriously hope the Chiefs don't think that. Lenny Walls can start for a few games if a guy they draft isn't ready. Chris Johnson, Kevin Garrett and all these other corners they signed are going to be battling with Julian Battle, Alphonzo Hodge and Benny Sapp for the last 2 CB spots on the roster.

I like Cromartie because everytime I've seen him play I've come away extremely impressed. In one of the other threads I point out the minute I saw the plays he made against the Canes I wanted him in a Chiefs uniform. He looked like the best player on the field between FSU and Miami as a RS freshman. I find that extremely impressive. Ever since then I've been a huge backer of his but never thought we'd be bad enough to touch him, well his injury has changed that so I want us to pick him.

I didn't say that was MY plan for improving the Chiefs secondary, but OBVIOUSLY the Chiefs have gone out and landed those players in an ATTEMPT to improve the secondary. That's indisputable. Do I think they are done attempting to improve the secondary? No I don't. I believe they WILL address CB in this year's draft, but, again, I will be very surprised if it is in the first round. We could go round and round about who they could have landed in FA, but that's a completely different argument and still doesn't dispute that the Chiefs have gone out in free agency and picked up 3 NEW corners.

You have to look at the FACTS. Cromartie has started ONE game. Cromartie is coming off an injury. Cromartie's speed is coming into question because of his injury. Cromartie is a risk-reward type player. He may pan out, he may not, but most agree he ISN'T ready to make a signifigant contribution to any team next year. To be fair, the same could be said about most rookies, but I believe you are letting his past 40 times blind you to other player's potential in this year's draft, players like Tamba Hali.

ct
04-19-2006, 08:33 AM
And I would love to have Williams at safety.

My one problem is that he seems pretty adamant about wanting to play corner. I know he won't neccessarily get to choose where he lines up, but I worry that his attitude about it will affect his effort. I still think it's probably worth it.

I thought it was just the opposite, that he said he was a Safety. I recall reading that Jason Allen wants to be a CB. Maybe I'm all mixed up? :shrug:

Anyone clarify please?

Mr. Laz
04-19-2006, 09:09 AM
If he's willing to play safety sure, he could fall considering he's one of the ones who's considered to have "character issues". I have a really hard time thinking the Cowboys wouldn't pick him if he did start falling though.

how many picks does Dallas get? :p

Mecca
04-19-2006, 01:31 PM
So the whole premise of your argument for Cromartie vs. Hali is that Cromartie has huge potential, while Hali is as good as he's going to get.


Hali is an inexperienced football player, who lacks football instincts, and basically the scouts, and you, have determined that there isn't much of a chance for him to develop those instints with experience.


What a load of unmitigated crap.

When he's been a 3 year starter and still lacts instincts odds are he's not going to develop them.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 01:33 PM
I didn't say that was MY plan for improving the Chiefs secondary, but OBVIOUSLY the Chiefs have gone out and landed those players in an ATTEMPT to improve the secondary. That's indisputable. Do I think they are done attempting to improve the secondary? No I don't. I believe they WILL address CB in this year's draft, but, again, I will be very surprised if it is in the first round. We could go round and round about who they could have landed in FA, but that's a completely different argument and still doesn't dispute that the Chiefs have gone out in free agency and picked up 3 NEW corners.

You have to look at the FACTS. Cromartie has started ONE game. Cromartie is coming off an injury. Cromartie's speed is coming into question because of his injury. Cromartie is a risk-reward type player. He may pan out, he may not, but most agree he ISN'T ready to make a signifigant contribution to any team next year. To be fair, the same could be said about most rookies, but I believe you are letting his past 40 times blind you to other player's potential in this year's draft, players like Tamba Hali.

Did you miss my post about what I saw when I watched him play the Canes? The guy is a playmaker, his workouts are good and show he is coming back from his injury well. If we were picking 10th no I wouldn't take this risk. But at 20 I consider this risk/reward of this pick to good to pass. You get a top 10 talent at 20.

milkman
04-19-2006, 01:38 PM
When he's been a 3 year starter and still lacts instincts odds are he's not going to develop them.

3 year starter is still only 36 games, at most, and he didn't start playing football until his freshman year in high school.

Most of the guys coming into the NFL have played football since they were tykes.

So, yeah, I disagree with the assessment that he probably won't develop instincts.

When it comes to football years, he's still in his formative years.

Chiefnj
04-19-2006, 01:40 PM
3 year starter is still only 36 games, at most, and he didn't start playing football until his freshman year in high school.

Most of the guys coming into the NFL have played football since they were tykes.

So, yeah, I disagree with the assessment that he probably won't develop instincts.

When it comes to football years, he's still in his formative years.

Plus, he spent some time at DT.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 01:41 PM
I just think you're asking a hell of alot more from Hali expecting him to develop instincts than you would of Cromartie developing a good backpeddle.

Cromarties weakness are all easily fixable......Hali's in many ways are things you either have or don't have.

By the way a corner with a choppy backpeddle and some technique flaws went top 10 last year......he was named Antrel Rolle.

milkman
04-19-2006, 01:48 PM
I just think you're asking a hell of alot more from Hali expecting him to develop instincts than you would of Cromartie developing a good backpeddle.

Cromarties weakness are all easily fixable......Hali's in many ways are things you either have or don't have.

By the way a corner with a choppy backpeddle and some technique flaws went top 10 last year......he was named Antrel Rolle.

I think that Cromartie has potential to be a hell of a corner.

Where we disagree is on Hali.

I think he has the potential to be a hell of a DE, and think that he's a guy that can come in and help right away, and get better in time.

I also don't disagree with the need for more help at corner.

I just disagree on the priority of that need.

ZootedGranny
04-19-2006, 02:00 PM
I would absolutely love Cromartie in the first and Tapp in the second.

BigChiefFan
04-19-2006, 02:12 PM
How is PRODUCING at the collegiate level proof that Hali has no instincts? In 12 games last year he had 38 tackles, 12 for loss, and 8 sacks.

htismaqe
04-19-2006, 02:15 PM
I think that Cromartie has potential to be a hell of a corner.

Where we disagree is on Hali.

I think he has the potential to be a hell of a DE, and think that he's a guy that can come in and help right away, and get better in time.

I also don't disagree with the need for more help at corner.

I just disagree on the priority of that need.

I agree with you 100%.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 02:15 PM
How is PRODUCING at the collegiate level proof that Hali has no instincts? In 12 games last year he had 38 tackles, 12 for loss, and 8 sacks.

Have you read his scouting reports?

BigChiefFan
04-19-2006, 02:46 PM
Have you read his scouting reports?Quit deflecting. Of course I've read reports on him and seen him play.

Mecca
04-19-2006, 02:59 PM
Quit deflecting. Of course I've read reports on him and seen him play.

So are you telling me you know more than his scouting report does?

Spicy McHaggis
04-19-2006, 03:23 PM
I remember this guy named Erasmus James putting up some pretty good stats in the Big 10...how'd he fair last year?

That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Penn State RB's can't make it in the NFL either.

ct
04-19-2006, 03:30 PM
That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Penn State RB's can't make it in the NFL either.

And all Florida St. CBs are the next Deion.

Spicy McHaggis
04-19-2006, 03:35 PM
I just think you're asking a hell of alot more from Hali expecting him to develop instincts than you would of Cromartie developing a good backpeddle.

Cromarties weakness are all easily fixable......Hali's in many ways are things you either have or don't have.

By the way a corner with a choppy backpeddle and some technique flaws went top 10 last year......he was named Antrel Rolle.

Let me tell you a story about a little boy with a choppy backpeddle, a stutter and an aversion to social situations. He grew up a young Russian boy in the poor side of immigrant Boston. His father worked at the steel mill but wanted a better life for his son, one not filled with potato eating days and vodka swilling nights. So he saved up some money and bought a pair of tap shoes for his son.

"But Papa," the boy said. "I cannot dance."
"Aye," his father said adopting a strange Scottish accent. "But these be (pirate accent now) magic tap shoes. Just put them on and you can dance."

Soon the boy was the best tapper in all the east side. But on the night of the big recital the boy lost his magic shoes!

"Papa!!" he cried in dismay. "I've lost my magic shoes!!!'

"Good!" his father said. "It's about time you stopped being such a sally and played a real sport!"

So the boy dropped dancing and began playing football. And that little boy, well he grew up to be...


















Rich Scanlon

ct
04-19-2006, 03:38 PM
ROFL

Good stuff! And the Legend grows...

BigChiefFan
04-19-2006, 03:48 PM
So are you telling me you know more than his scouting report does?
There are MANY scouting reports, because there are many scouts. Each one has their own opinion and the good ones should do their homework and study each player. I'm basing my opinion on what I've SEEN of Tamba Hali, plus read and not basing it on what ONE scouting report suggests.

Again, I still think Cromartie has the POTENTIAL to be all-world, but that shouldn't take anything away from Tamba Hali, like you are suggesting.