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View Full Version : Is Jimmy Williams this year's Derrick Johnson


ChiefsCountry
04-23-2006, 02:56 PM
Top ten guy all year, but right before the draft is slipping pretty could. I think if he is at #20 the Chiefs would be fools not to pick him.

CupidStunt
04-23-2006, 03:11 PM
Logical idea, bad player example.

DJ was thought of as an absolute, stone-cold lock to go top 10, not only all season, but all post-season.

Williams was a good (though not GREAT) bet for the top 10 pre-season, a shaky bet during the season, and since has not really been thought of as a top 10 guy.

Bottom line, though, is that I don't see him making it past the #16-#18 region. Quite possibly even higher.

Mr. Laz
04-23-2006, 03:25 PM
Williams was a good (though not GREAT) bet for the top 10 pre-season, a shaky bet during the season, and since has not really been thought of as a top 10 guy.

Bottom line, though, is that I don't see him making it past the #16-#18 region. Quite possibly even higher.
there are some people that think Williams is the best cornerback in the draft and he has some pretty good numbers to back it up.




bottomline ... everyone said DJ wouldn't last either




with all the conflicting player ranking etc this year ... it's gonna be really interesting to see how the draft falls this year.

Demonpenz
04-23-2006, 03:40 PM
DJ was a steal. If he can stay healthy and keep his off the field troubles in check he will be a monster

JBucc
04-23-2006, 03:43 PM
He may fall some but I don't think he'll get to 20

htismaqe
04-23-2006, 03:49 PM
Williams is arguably the best CB on the board. He would, however, also be the best FS on the board.

If he's there, we better damn well take him.

CupidStunt
04-23-2006, 03:59 PM
bottomline ... everyone said DJ wouldn't last either


I don't see what your point is.

I'm saying that Williams COULD fall -- he's not near the lock DJ supposedly was.

milkman
04-23-2006, 04:06 PM
Williams is arguably the best CB on the board. He would, however, also be the best FS on the board.

If he's there, we better damn well take him.

We've discussed the need for a bigtime safety in this defense.

The question is, however, do the geniuses that run the show see the need as well, or are they satisfied with the players they have?

htismaqe
04-24-2006, 07:24 AM
We've discussed the need for a bigtime safety in this defense.

The question is, however, do the geniuses that run the show see the need as well, or are they satisfied with the players they have?

Well, they brought in Knight last year, and even though he eventually replaced Woods, he was competing with both Woods and Wesley. In fact, Knight was given one spot and Woods and Wesley fought it out for the other.

I think they know we have a need.

BigChiefFan
04-24-2006, 10:02 AM
Williams looks to be the real deal. I'm not sure why the talking heads aren't hyping him.

Mecca
04-24-2006, 12:22 PM
Williams looks to be the real deal. I'm not sure why the talking heads aren't hyping him.

Character issues.......and when you look like a tweener. There are probably atleast 20 teams that would never ever pick a Safety in the first round.

htismaqe
04-24-2006, 12:56 PM
If Williams falls, we better pick him.

ChiefsCountry
04-24-2006, 02:28 PM
Character issues.......and when you look like a tweener. There are probably atleast 20 teams that would never ever pick a Safety in the first round.

Sounds better than a guy with a bum knee who has only started one game.

Mecca
04-24-2006, 02:33 PM
Sounds better than a guy with a bum knee who has only started one game.

Of course Cromarties workout numbers are better across the board....bum knee and all.

That 1 game start thing is funny, the guy was named first team all ACC. So it's not like he wasn't playing.

Wilson8
04-24-2006, 09:12 PM
One reason Carl might not draft Jimmy Williams is his agent, Ethan Locke. Carl and Ethan are good friends from the John Tait days.

Tribal Warfare
04-24-2006, 10:40 PM
If Williams falls, we better pick him.

That option falls only in the Micheal Huff scenario

the other DBs have questions about health,size, and character issues.

The Bad Guy
04-24-2006, 10:42 PM
Of course Cromarties workout numbers are better across the board....bum knee and all.

That 1 game start thing is funny, the guy was named first team all ACC. So it's not like he wasn't playing.

And workout numbers don't always translate into productive football players.

Williams has produced over a long period of time and his question marks on him are much less striking than that of Cromartie. But that is strange that he's so high ranked despite starting only one game. I'm really not interested in drafting a player that hasn't produced over a long period of time in college. That's how the Chiefs got in trouble with Sly Mo, Ryan Sims, etc..Cromartie's workouts may have been off the charts, but I'd rather long-term production from the position over stellar workout numbers.

I hope Williams falls to 20 and the Chiefs take him. I like his attitude. This defense needs some players with some flash and arrogance.

Tribal Warfare
04-24-2006, 10:47 PM
[QUOTE=The
I hope Williams falls to 20 and the Chiefs take him. I like his attitude. This defense needs some players with some flash and arrogance.[/QUOTE]


Attitude yes,speaking of a mean streak that all great defenses have. Arrogance get's a team beat.
Arrogance helped yeild the Monday night meltdown.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2006, 12:27 AM
Arrogance helped yeild the Monday night meltdown.
[/size]

Ignorance yielded a monday night meltdown.

Arrogance and swagger never got a team beat. Mental breakdowns get a team beat.

Believing you're better than everyone you play never hurt anyone.

Tribal Warfare
04-25-2006, 12:52 AM
Believing you're better than everyone you play never hurt anyone.
that's confidence not arrogance.

Arrogance is the belief you've already beat the opponent before stepping on the field. confidence is the readiness, and self assurance of possible victory or perfection

mcan
04-25-2006, 01:27 AM
Arrogance helped yeild the Monday night meltdown.


Monday Night Meltdown had nothing to do with arrogence. It had everything to do with Shannon Sharpe doing his research into Derrick Thomas' personal life... Specific names, and dates... Specific women... Specific children... And saying just the right things at just the right times...

It was the only time I'd ever seen Derrick get REALLY pissed off. I'm not excusing the personal fouls. (I think he had three of em before he got booted) but that was a head game that Sharpe played perfectly.

The Bad Guy
04-25-2006, 01:40 AM
that's confidence not arrogance.

Arrogance is the belief you've already beat the opponent before stepping on the field. confidence is the readiness, and self assurance of possible victory or perfection

Confidence is believing in yourself. Arrogance is believing you're better than everyone else.

I guess you have different definitions than I do.

In no way do I define arrogance as believing the opponent is already beat before a player steps on the field.

eazyb81
04-25-2006, 07:10 AM
I hope Williams falls to 20 and the Chiefs take him. I like his attitude. This defense needs some players with some flash and arrogance.

I agree with your thoughts on J-Will, I think he has the mean streak and the type of swagge that this defense desperately needs. He is the type of player that can become a leader for this team, something we are sorely lacking.

htismaqe
04-25-2006, 07:54 AM
I agree with your thoughts on J-Will, I think he has the mean streak and the type of swagge that this defense desperately needs. He is the type of player that can become a leader for this team, something we are sorely lacking.

Yep.

Tribal Warfare
04-25-2006, 06:01 PM
Confidence is believing in yourself. Arrogance is believing you're better than everyone else.

I guess you have different definitions than I do.

In no way do I define arrogance as believing the opponent is already beat before a player steps on the field.


the definition of arrogance- overbearing pride, or the belief ones status is greater than another

I stand by my comments

tiptap
04-25-2006, 07:28 PM
Don't take a safety or CB. I don't care how good they look. Take a lot of CB and safeties later 3rd round on. We are going to bring a bunch of secondary in so let them fight it out. Dlineman and both the 1st and 2nd pick. Then you can branch out to CB, safeties maybe a guard prospect later. I think we got the new tackles in Svitek and Sampson and guards are ok with Welbourne and Bober. But if a guy with good feet comes up ok.

jiveturkey
04-25-2006, 07:57 PM
Take him.

The d-line will have to wait if that sum bitch is sitting there at 20.

I believe that our pass d will benefit more from Williams than it will from any of the d-lineman that are likely to be available.

If Lawson and Williams are there then we might need to revisit the issue.

milkman
04-25-2006, 07:57 PM
Don't take a safety or CB. I don't care how good they look. Take a lot of CB and safeties later 3rd round on. We are going to bring a bunch of secondary in so let them fight it out. Dlineman and both the 1st and 2nd pick. Then you can branch out to CB, safeties maybe a guard prospect later. I think we got the new tackles in Svitek and Sampson and guards are ok with Welbourne and Bober. But if a guy with good feet comes up ok.

Parker has been banging this drum for quite some time now.

Name one outstanding defense that doesn't have an outstanding safety.

TRR
04-26-2006, 08:48 AM
I don't see KC having the pass rush to get by with starting a rookie CB or Safety this season. I would like to pick up a DE like Lawson or Kiwanuka...A player who can come right in, and be a menice to the opposing QB. I'm not that sold on a CB prospect because flat out, QB's have almost all day to throw against KC's D. Even Surtain looked bad in a few games because he wasn't used to covering WR's that long.

My money is on a DE.

ct
04-26-2006, 08:57 AM
I don't see KC having the pass rush to get by with starting a rookie CB or Safety this season. I would like to pick up a DE like Lawson or Kiwanuka...A player who can come right in, and be a menice to the opposing QB. I'm not that sold on a CB prospect because flat out, QB's have almost all day to throw against KC's D. Even Surtain looked bad in a few games because he wasn't used to covering WR's that long.

My money is on a DE.

Mine too. If Lawson is there, we'll take him. If he's gone, then we might see a CB/S/WR, but most likely I think they would look to move down and recoup that 4th round pick, or better.

BigChiefFan
04-26-2006, 09:17 AM
I have to say, I prefer a pass-rusher to a SAFETY or CB in the 1st this year.

Name one dominating defense without a pass-rush?

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 09:19 AM
Parker has been banging this drum for quite some time now.

Name one outstanding defense that doesn't have an outstanding safety.

Exactly. There aren't any.

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 09:21 AM
Name one dominating defense without a pass-rush?

Denver.

BigChiefFan
04-26-2006, 09:22 AM
Exactly. There aren't any.
How many dominating defenses don't have a stellar front seven? It starts upfront. Always has, always will.

BigChiefFan
04-26-2006, 09:24 AM
Denver. I wouldn't consider them dominant, but they still have a nice D-line, alot better than ours and very good LBing core.

Also, Dominant D's are usually associated with CHAMPIONSHIP teams, at least in my book.

eazyb81
04-26-2006, 09:25 AM
Denver.

How does Denver not have a pass rush? They had a great Dline last year with Pryce and Brown on the outside, and Warren pushing up the middle. Also, they had three stud LBs to help out when they blitzed. I don't think Denver was a good example of a great defense that doesn't have a great pass rush.

milkman
04-26-2006, 09:25 AM
I have to say, I prefer a pass-rusher to a SAFETY or CB in the 1st this year.

Name one dominating defense without a pass-rush?

I agree with you.

The thing is, are you going to draft a DE at 20, who is an inferior athlete to Jimmy Williams, simply because of the need for a pass rushing DE?

I'm with you, I want a DE.
I want a DT.

But it becomes a question of value.

I personally am on the Tamba Hali bandwagon, and would hope we could find a trade down partner, getting Hali later in the first, and a safety like Bing or Bullocks in the second.

BigChiefFan
04-26-2006, 09:33 AM
I agree with you.

The thing is, are you going to draft a DE at 20, who is an inferior athlete to Jimmy Williams, simply because of the need for a pass rushing DE?

I'm with you, I want a DE.
I want a DT.

But it becomes a question of value.

I personally am on the Tamba Hali bandwagon, and would hope we could find a trade down partner, getting Hali later in the first, and a safety like Bing or Bullocks in the second.

That's nice to hear somebody agreeing with me. ROFL

I'm with you-it's all about the value of the pick and I really like Jimmy Williams- his size and speed, plus his play in college is worthy of the 20th pick, IMO. However, all things being equal, if Manny Lawson is available, I think we should go in that direction and get a pass-rusher, who has the ability to become a difference-maker.

milkman
04-26-2006, 09:39 AM
That's nice to hear somebody agreeing with me. ROFL

I'm with you-it's all about the value of the pick and I really like Jimmy Williams- his size and speed, plus his play in college is worthy of the 20th pick, IMO. However, all things being equal, if Manny Lawson is available, I think we should go in that direction and get a pass-rusher, who has the ability to become a difference-maker.

Again, I agree.

If Lawson makes it to the 20th pick, then we should take him.

ct
04-26-2006, 09:58 AM
I'm really warming up to Manny Lawson, if we keep him at DE and let him add some weight. He might also fit into that OLB pass rusher we used to have back in the day with DT, though I really hate to put that label on anybody.

Now if he's gone, and JW is there, I'm cool with that as a Safety! No way I want another convert at CB!! If that's what we have in mind, I want to move back, gain an additional 3rd or recoup our lost 4th, and take Hali later.

milkman
04-26-2006, 10:02 AM
I'm really warming up to Manny Lawson, if we keep him at DE and let him add some weight. He might also fit into that OLB pass rusher we used to have back in the day with DT, though I really hate to put that label on anybody.

Now if he's gone, and JW is there, I'm cool with that as a Safety! No way I want another convert at CB!! If that's what we have in mind, I want to move back, gain an additional 3rd or recoup our lost 4th, and take Hali later.

Exactly.

ChiefsCountry
04-26-2006, 10:16 AM
Now if he's gone, and JW is there, I'm cool with that as a Safety! No way I want another convert at CB!!

Williams was a corner in college.

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 10:24 AM
How does Denver not have a pass rush? They had a great Dline last year with Pryce and Brown on the outside, and Warren pushing up the middle. Also, they had three stud LBs to help out when they blitzed. I don't think Denver was a good example of a great defense that doesn't have a great pass rush.

If Denver's pass rush was so great, why is everybody, including the team and the fans, going on about how they need another DE? Why were they in on the John Abraham sweepstakes? Denver STILL doesn't have a marquee pass rusher.

And besides that, you're trying to create a slanted argument in your favor by comparing the value of ONE PLAYER, a safety, to the value of SEVEN PLAYERS, the entire front 7 of the defense.

Like Sidewinder said, it comes down to VALUE. We have ONE first round pick. Jimmy Williams alone is far more valuable than any one pass rusher that should be available, save for perhaps Manny Lawson.

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 10:25 AM
How many dominating defenses don't have a stellar front seven? It starts upfront. Always has, always will.

Way to change the argument.

eazyb81
04-26-2006, 10:28 AM
If Denver's pass rush was so great, why is everybody, including the team and the fans, going on about how they need another DE? Why were they in on the John Abraham sweepstakes? Denver STILL doesn't have a marquee pass rusher.

And besides that, you're trying to create a slanted argument in your favor by comparing the value of ONE PLAYER, a safety, to the value of SEVEN PLAYERS, the entire front 7 of the defense.



Because good teams don't stay content with where they are, they always want to get better.

Also, Denver lost Pryce in the offseason, so they want to try and get a replacement for him. Their pass rush probably won't be as effective this season, but I thought they had one of the better dlines in the league last year.

I don't see how i'm trying to make a slanted argument, but whatever, I really don't care that much anyways.

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 10:33 AM
Because good teams don't stay content with where they are, they always want to get better.

Also, Denver lost Pryce in the offseason, so they want to try and get a replacement for him. Their pass rush probably won't be as effective this season, but I thought they had one of the better dlines in the league last year.

I don't see how i'm trying to make a slanted argument, but whatever, I really don't care that much anyways.

So you're changing the argument again?

Hilarious.

Sidewinder asked the question at 8:57 last night, and still no answer. Only questions and deflection.

milkman
04-26-2006, 10:36 AM
Because good teams don't stay content with where they are, they always want to get better.

Also, Denver lost Pryce in the offseason, so they want to try and get a replacement for him. Their pass rush probably won't be as effective this season, but I thought they had one of the better dlines in the league last year.

I don't see how i'm trying to make a slanted argument, but whatever, I really don't care that much anyways.

Didn't the Donkeys have fewer sacks as a team than the Chiefs last season?

eazyb81
04-26-2006, 10:37 AM
So you're changing the argument again?

Hilarious.

Sidewinder asked the question at 8:57 last night, and still no answer. Only questions and deflection.

WTF are you talking about? Changed what argument?

I would be happy if we drafted Lawson or J-Will, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

I simply responded to you using Denver as an example of a great defensive team that doesn't have a good pass rush....that was a poor example and I stand by it. Just because they may need a DE now doesn't change the fact that they had a good pass rush last season.

ct
04-26-2006, 10:37 AM
Williams was a corner in college.

He was a FS his sophomore year, played CB his Jr and Sr years. Better prospect as a Safety, and has even stated publicly that he is a Safety. Yet because he has played 2 years at CB, and has great speed, he seems to be investigated at the higher coveted CB position.

milkman
04-26-2006, 10:46 AM
WTF are you talking about? Changed what argument?

I would be happy if we drafted Lawson or J-Will, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

I simply responded to you using Denver as an example of a great defensive team that doesn't have a good pass rush....that was a poor example and I stand by it. Just because they may need a DE now doesn't change the fact that they had a good pass rush last season.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2005/chiefs/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2005/broncos/

Chiefs had 29 sacks.
Donks had 27.

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 10:46 AM
WTF are you talking about? Changed what argument?

I would be happy if we drafted Lawson or J-Will, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

I simply responded to you using Denver as an example of a great defensive team that doesn't have a good pass rush....that was a poor example and I stand by it. Just because they may need a DE now doesn't change the fact that they had a good pass rush last season.

Denver finished 5th to last in the league last year in sacks. That's a great pass rush there.

And yes, you're trying to change the argument.

Just answer the question - name a great defense that doesn't have at least 1 great safety.

eazyb81
04-26-2006, 10:50 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2005/chiefs/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2005/broncos/

Chiefs had 29 sacks.
Donks had 27.

Awesome, that's great. But do high sack totals alone equal a great pass rush?

KC had 40+ sacks in 2004....did we have a "great pass rush" that year?

ChiefsCountry
04-26-2006, 10:50 AM
Just answer the question - name a great defense that doesn't have at least 1 great safety.

You can't. Most of the great teams that won had a good safety. Pittsburgh - Troy Polamalu, Tampa Bay - John Lynch, Baltimore - Rod Woodson, Dallas - Darren Woodson, Green Bay - LeRoy Butler, San Francisco- Ronnie Lott.

eazyb81
04-26-2006, 10:56 AM
Denver finished 5th to last in the league last year in sacks. That's a great pass rush there.

And yes, you're trying to change the argument.

Just answer the question - name a great defense that doesn't have at least 1 great safety.

As I noted in the previous post, sack totals alone don't tell the whole story of a team's pass rush, but let's not even get into that.

And no, i'm not trying to change the argument, because i'm not attempting to make an argument. Someone asked you to name a great defense that didn't have a great pass rush, and you said Denver...that's a bad example if you watched many Denver games last year.

As to your last question, I don't really no off the top of my head, and I don't really care since I already said I would love to have Williams in the 1st round. Dallas had a pretty bad FS last year, and Chicago didn't have world beaters in the secondary w/ Brown and Harris. Is that good enough for you?

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 10:57 AM
You can't. Most of the great teams that won had a good safety. Pittsburgh - Troy Polamalu, Tampa Bay - John Lynch, Baltimore - Rod Woodson, Dallas - Darren Woodson, Green Bay - LeRoy Butler, San Francisco- Ronnie Lott.

I'm not even asking them to go that far.

Just name a top CURRENT defense that doesn't have a stud safety.

ChiefsCountry
04-26-2006, 11:01 AM
As I noted in the previous post, sack totals alone don't tell the whole story of a team's pass rush, but let's not even get into that.

And no, i'm not trying to change the argument, because i'm not attempting to make an argument. Someone asked you to name a great defense that didn't have a great pass rush, and you said Denver...that's a bad example if you watched many Denver games last year.

As to your last question, I don't really no off the top of my head, and I don't really care since I already said I would love to have Williams in the 1st round. Dallas had a pretty bad FS last year, and Chicago didn't have world beaters in the secondary w/ Brown and Harris. Is that good enough for you?

Dallas had Roy Williams as well. Also Chicago's Mike Brown is one of the league's best.

Mr. Kotter
04-26-2006, 11:02 AM
I agree with you.

The thing is, are you going to draft a DE at 20, who is an inferior athlete to Jimmy Williams, simply because of the need for a pass rushing DE?

I'm with you, I want a DE.
I want a DT.

But it becomes a question of value.

I personally am on the Tamba Hali bandwagon, and would hope we could find a trade down partner, getting Hali later in the first, and a safety like Bing or Bullocks in the second.

Some other brilliant (and handsome, I might add) Planeteer has also touted that very same plan....:p

milkman
04-26-2006, 11:06 AM
Some other brilliant (and handsome, I might add) Planeteer has also touted that very same plan....:p

Who would that be? :)

htismaqe
04-26-2006, 11:06 AM
As I noted in the previous post, sack totals alone don't tell the whole story of a team's pass rush, but let's not even get into that.

And no, i'm not trying to change the argument, because i'm not attempting to make an argument. Someone asked you to name a great defense that didn't have a great pass rush, and you said Denver...that's a bad example if you watched many Denver games last year.

As to your last question, I don't really no off the top of my head, and I don't really care since I already said I would love to have Williams in the 1st round. Dallas had a pretty bad FS last year, and Chicago didn't have world beaters in the secondary w/ Brown and Harris. Is that good enough for you?

I just get tired of being treated like a raving lunatic every time I bring up this team's need at safety. I'm not even against drafting a pass-rusher - I happen to REALLY like Lawson.

BTW, Dallas has Roy Williams. Our two safeties TOGETHER aren't as good as he is alone. And Mike Brown is one of the top safeties in the league.

Mr. Kotter
04-26-2006, 11:11 AM
Who would that be? :)

I bumped the following thread for you:


My 2006 Mock Fixes the Defense (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=139316)

milkman
04-26-2006, 11:15 AM
I bumped the following thread for you:


My 2006 Mock Fixes the Defense (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=139316)

Yeah, I've read that thread.

But I'm still trying to find out who this "brilliant" and " handsome" poster is that you speak of?



:p

eazyb81
04-26-2006, 12:17 PM
I just get tired of being treated like a raving lunatic every time I bring up this team's need at safety. I'm not even against drafting a pass-rusher - I happen to REALLY like Lawson.

BTW, Dallas has Roy Williams. Our two safeties TOGETHER aren't as good as he is alone. And Mike Brown is one of the top safeties in the league.

That's why he was traded for a 6th pick??? :hmmm:

I get what you are saying about Williams, and like I said, I LIKE WILLIAMS AND WOULD BE HAPPY IF WE DRAFTED HIM. So I have no idea why you directed this argument at me since I agree with you, but I digress.

ct
04-26-2006, 12:31 PM
That's why he was traded for a 6th pick??? :hmmm:

I get what you are saying about Williams, and like I said, I LIKE WILLIAMS AND WOULD BE HAPPY IF WE DRAFTED HIM. So I have no idea why you directed this argument at me since I agree with you, but I digress.

DOH! Mike Green.

http://www.theredzone.org/news/showarticle.asp?ArticleID=3959

eazyb81
04-26-2006, 01:12 PM
DOH! Mike Green.

http://www.theredzone.org/news/showarticle.asp?ArticleID=3959

brain fart.

ROFL