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Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 05:16 PM
If you absolutely were given complete proof there was no god. I'm not trying to debate religion here ASSUME for the sake of arguement that the proof was so complete even the pope / falwell / billy graham agreed and said thats it they are right. This is a HYPOTHETICAL situation feel free to experiment with free thinking - what if's are OK for this thread.

What would you do differently in your life? Would you kill people who said your name on the Internet? **** that underage babysitter? Wholesale commit murder? Commit Adultery? Look at more porn? Order sex toys? Eat bananas?

Just curious. Obviously for me there would be little to no difference. But I am very curious what true xtians / fundies would do differently or really any of the rest of us.

Dave

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 05:18 PM
If you absolutely was give complete proof there was no god. I'm not trying to debate religion here ASSUME for the sake of arguement that the proof was so complete even the pope / falwell / billy graham agreed and said thats it they are right. Tom this is a HYPOTHETICAL situation feel free to experiment with free thinking - what if's are OK for this thread.

What would you do differently in your life? Would you kill people who said your name on the Internet? **** that underage babysitter? Wholesale commit murder? Commit Adultery? Look at more porn? Order sex toys? Eat bananas?

Just curious. Obviously for me there would be little to no difference. But I am very curious what true xtians / fundies do differently or really any of us.

Dave

Why don't you assume what you think I would do. I have no desire to engage in your hypothetical situation. Let the rest of the board play.

I'm sure that everyone will come up with something that will be attributed to me later anyway.

Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 05:19 PM
Why don't you assume what you think I would do. I have no desire to engage in your hypothetical situation. Let the rest of the board play.

I'm sure that everyone will come up with something that will be attributed to me later anyway.


I'm willing to let you speak for yourself. I'm just curious would it change anything for you?

Dave

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 05:20 PM
I'm willing to let you speak for yourself. I'm just curious would it change anything for you?

Dave

Let it go, it's not going to happen.

Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 05:21 PM
What no god or your answering the question?

Dave

memyselfI
04-25-2006, 05:24 PM
Nothing much would change except I might be sayin 'gosh dammit' when I'm super pizzed. And 'oh, oh, oh gosh' when I'm having an insanely enjoyable moment during sexual activity. :hmmm:

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 05:25 PM
What no god or your answering the question?

Dave

Which part of "let it go" did you not understand?

Find another subject/participant.

Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 05:43 PM
Hmm maybe this should have been a poll. No takers but denise?

Dave

memyselfI
04-25-2006, 05:49 PM
Hmm maybe this should have been a poll. No takers but denise?

Dave

I guess no one else uses God's name in vain or ecstasy. :hmmm: ;)

Logical
04-25-2006, 05:54 PM
I don't think I would change a thing in relation to how my moral compass is set. I would not be able to have some of the more stimulating debate on organized religion, I guess that would be a change.

Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 06:00 PM
I don't think I would change a thing in relation to how my moral compass is set. I would not be able to have some of the more stimulating debate on organized religion, I guess that would be a change.


Thats true I would miss that, though in truth its basically mental masturbation.

Dave

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 06:00 PM
I don't think I would change a thing in relation to how my moral compass is set. I would not be able to have some of the more stimulating debate on organized religion, I guess that would be a change.

Just what would your moral compass be if it hadn't been influenced by religion? Facts are that everyone that has lived in the U.S. has been touched by the 10 Commandments and IMO they are the foundation of the laws that we abide by in the U.S. You don't have to like that, but you know it is true.

Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 06:07 PM
Just what was "The Law"?

There was more to the Law than the 10 commandments – the Law included all the prescripts of priestly control of society: regulations on marriage, property, agriculture, food, a penal system and the vast economy of ritual sacrifice.

"This elaborate 'second Pentateuch', combined with the already elaborate set of 41 laws found in the Covenant Code (Exodus 20.23-23.33), plus the 78 laws of the Deuteronomic Code (Deuteronomy 12-26), and the strict regulation of sex, feasts, and sacrifices in the Holiness Code (Leviticus 17-26), often gave the impression of a jurisprudential nightmare."

– Thomas Sheehan (The First Coming, p37)

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 06:09 PM
Just what was "The Law"?
There was more to the Law than the 10 commandments – the Law included all the prescripts of priestly control of society: regulations on marriage, property, agriculture, food, a penal system and the vast economy of ritual sacrifice.

"This elaborate 'second Pentateuch', combined with the already elaborate set of 41 laws found in the Covenant Code (Exodus 20.23-23.33), plus the 78 laws of the Deuteronomic Code (Deuteronomy 12-26), and the strict regulation of sex, feasts, and sacrifices in the Holiness Code (Leviticus 17-26), often gave the impression of a jurisprudential nightmare."

– Thomas Sheehan (The First Coming, p37)

The 10 Commandments seemed to be the cornerstone of the laws. Which part of that was confusing to you?

jspchief
04-25-2006, 08:49 PM
The 10 Commandments seemed to be the cornerstone of the laws. Which part of that was confusing to you?So before the ten commandments, you believe no one thought murder was wrong?

patteeu
04-25-2006, 09:02 PM
I would quit going to church and I would probably advocate abortion as a remedy for unwanted children, therapeutic cloning, and eugenics and other forms of scientific attempts to improve humanity that might today be considered "playing God."

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 09:03 PM
So before the ten commandments, you believe no one thought murder was wrong?

The Egyptians did. I guess you haven't followed the history of the world very closely have you?

You do know there were people on the earth that were not Jewish or Roman during those days, right?

The 10 Commandments were given to Moses for us as a set of laws. If you read them they are pretty clear, and they are commandments not suggestion.

jspchief
04-25-2006, 09:17 PM
The Egyptians did. I guess you haven't followed the history of the world very closely have you?

You do know there were people on the earth that were not Jewish or Roman during those days, right?

The 10 Commandments were given to Moses for us as a set of laws. If you read them they are pretty clear, and they are commandments not suggestion.What? 95% of your post has nothing to do with the question I asked you.

Your previous post sounded like you were suggesting that without religion, we would have no direction for a moral compass. As if people didn't think murder was wrong until Moses came along and told them it was. I would dispute that.

You do realize that people had a sense of right and wrong before your alledged 10 commandments, don't you?

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2006, 09:17 PM
I would probably wager differently on the upcoming WWE Pay Per View Backlash, which will pit Shawn Michaels and his tag team partner, God against Vince and Shane McMahon.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2006, 09:19 PM
Religion does not imbue people with a moral compass. It is the instinct of every species to perpetuate its genes. Murder contraindicates that. It's a natural, evolutionary response.

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 09:27 PM
What? 95% of your post has nothing to do with the question I asked you.

Your previous post sounded like you were suggesting that without religion, we would have no direction for a moral compass. As if people didn't think murder was wrong until Moses came along and told them it was. I would dispute that.

You do realize that people had a sense of right and wrong before your alledged 10 commandments, don't you?

I said that the 10 commandments were part of the basis for laws in our country (somewhere back there I said that). Those that were raised in America had their moral values impacted by the fact that this country was founded on the freedom of religion, not the freedom from religion.

Which part of there being people and societies around during biblical days did you miss? Pretty clear that if there was a society there would be a governing body that had laws for the people of the society to follow. That is unless that you prefer to think that the King of Egypt had no laws or that the Native Americans that lived here had no "laws" of governing in their tribes.

You are being obstinent just for the argument, it's not working. Plus it is making you look like someone losing an argument with me and you don't want anyone to see that now do you?

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2006, 09:31 PM
I would quit going to church and I would probably advocate abortion as a remedy for unwanted children, therapeutic cloning, and eugenics and other forms of scientific attempts to improve humanity that might today be considered "playing God."

Now there is one hate-laced post by a self-professed Christian...I'll be back shortly with a mop to soak up the irony that has spilled all over the BB.

'Hamas' Jenkins
04-25-2006, 09:32 PM
Now there is one hate-laced post by a self-professed Christian...I'll be back shortly with a mop to soak up the irony that has spilled all over the BB.

TomCa$h, could you loan me your mop from you job at the 25 cent theater, I need to clean up some irony...

jspchief
04-25-2006, 09:36 PM
You are being obstinent just for the argument, it's not working. Plus it is making you look like someone losing an argument with me and you don't want anyone to see that now do you?I'm not trying to argue at all. I was simply asking you a question.

Your response to Vlad's comment that his moral compass wouldn't change sounded like you thought that without religion, his moral compass would never have been what it was. I asked a question because I was trying to determine if that was really what you were getting at, or if I was interpreting your statement wrong.

Somehow, you've used your poor comprehension skills to turn that into thinking I said there was no moral compass before christianity. You claim to be winning an argument with me that I'm not even engaged in. Before I try and get into a discussion (argument) with you about the topic, I was trying to understand exactly what your stance was.

Chiefs Express
04-25-2006, 09:37 PM
could you loan me your mop from you job at the 25 cent theater, I need to clean up some irony...

You need to keep me out of your ignorant posts.

I think you need to figure out that you are one of the most obnoxious turds to ever sign up on the board.

And you can keep your personal experiences to your self, I'm sure that your movie cleaning job was somewhat fulfilling for you.

Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 09:47 PM
I would quit going to church and I would probably advocate abortion as a remedy for unwanted children, therapeutic cloning, and eugenics and other forms of scientific attempts to improve humanity that might today be considered "playing God."


Take 2 points for being honest. And thanks for a candid response.

Dave

Dave Lane
04-25-2006, 09:48 PM
I would probably wager differently on the upcoming WWE Pay Per View Backlash, which will pit Shawn Michaels and his tag team partner, God against Vince and Shane McMahon.


Any other changes?

Dave

BucEyedPea
04-26-2006, 07:28 AM
I really don't know for sure what I'd do?

Seems like one of those things where if you're in it you do as you do, but if not you could say what you'd do but may not really do.

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 07:55 AM
I would no longer worry about what I did I would only worry about not getting caught. If I needed money I would go get it with the only concern being no witnesses. Non stop sex, explosives, sniper hits, and generally seeing how fast I could burn out the candle of life.

tiptap
04-26-2006, 07:55 AM
The Egyptians did. I guess you haven't followed the history of the world very closely have you?

You do know there were people on the earth that were not Jewish or Roman during those days, right?

The 10 Commandments were given to Moses for us as a set of laws. If you read them they are pretty clear, and they are commandments not suggestion.

They were commandments for the Israelites, you know people of the covenant. They found this obscure god in the desert and they made a deal that they would always put him first amoung the gods and He would bail them out in a pinch. Not universal laws just a deal between a god and his people.

tiptap
04-26-2006, 08:04 AM
As a person who actually moved from a fundalmentalist position to a scientific liberal one, I can say I did spend 3 or so years drinking, smoking and carousing after finding the god sctick absurd.
Then after looking at evolution and thermodynamics and just life in general, I realized, like Thomas Jefferson, that it was the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazereth that was important. Important because it meant we were thinking and making decisions and not acting simple upon evolutionary instincts. The greater good come with cooperation. And that requires some level of justice and equality for all in all aspects of life. To herald and worship disparity is to rally behind survival of fittest arguments. It is good for the individual that wins but the total production is reduced.

BucEyedPea
04-26-2006, 09:34 AM
I would no longer worry about what I did I would only worry about not getting caught. If I needed money I would go get it with the only concern being no witnesses. Non stop sex, explosives, sniper hits, and generally seeing how fast I could burn out the candle of life.

Ahh! This post made me rethink my position.

I don't believe that it's fear of punishment alone that would be my motivator. That's a rather low level of rationality and ethics. Ethics can be based on reason and morality does work on a practical basis too.

Since I feel acting ethically, by this I mean also keeping the moral codes that are agreed on by a culture, society or group, as well as one's own additional personal codes and even professional codes that may monitor ones profession, leads one to do better in life: feel better about oneself with a cleaner conscience, be happier even have good health. One would also tend to be trusted, have good friends etc. as a result. I mean you'd have to live your whole life hiding what you've done all the time if getting caught was the sole basis of doing what is right. That is kind of the trap a dishonest person suffers through...a virtual hell on earth!

Not saying life would be perfect, have no betrayals or never have any sadness. I do believe in the idea of spiritual karma...even that we may bring on bad things ourselves to some degree. I do believe we punish ourselves inadvertently but don't see it coming all the time.

So that's my answer.

Jilly
04-26-2006, 09:46 AM
that's a good question...I probably would find something else to worship or something else that would give my life meaning.

banyon
04-26-2006, 09:53 AM
I might spend less time at church. Maybe.

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 09:53 AM
Ahh! This post made me rethink my position.

I don't believe that it's fear of punishment alone that would be my motivator. That's a rather low level of rationality and ethics. Ethics can be based on reason and morality does work on a practical basis too.

Since I feel acting ethically, by this I mean also keeping the moral codes that are agreed on by a culture, society or group, as well as one's own additional personal codes and even professional codes that may monitor ones profession, leads one to do better in life: feel better about oneself with a cleaner conscience, be happier even have good health. One would also tend to be trusted, have good friends etc. as a result. I mean you'd have to live your whole life hiding what you've done all the time if getting caught was the sole basis of doing what is right. That is kind of the trap a dishonest person suffers through...a virtual hell on earth!

Not saying life would be perfect, have no betrayals or never have any sadness. I do believe in the idea of spiritual karma...even that we may bring on bad things ourselves to some degree. I do believe we punish ourselves inadvertently but don't see it coming all the time.

So that's my answer.

That is good to read because I would need people to prey on.

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 09:57 AM
As a person who actually moved from a fundalmentalist position to a scientific liberal one, I can say I did spend 3 or so years drinking, smoking and carousing after finding the god sctick absurd.
Then after looking at evolution and thermodynamics and just life in general, I realized, like Thomas Jefferson, that it was the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazereth that was important. Important because it meant we were thinking and making decisions and not acting simple upon evolutionary instincts. The greater good come with cooperation. And that requires some level of justice and equality for all in all aspects of life. To herald and worship disparity is to rally behind survival of fittest arguments. It is good for the individual that wins but the total production is reduced.

So do you find the notion of God absurd, is Jesus a problem, or just religion as bastardized by man?

Braincase
04-26-2006, 10:00 AM
I'd become a Jedi.

mlyonsd
04-26-2006, 10:00 AM
This is a great question.

One that I can't honestly answer.

jAZ
04-26-2006, 10:21 AM
I would quit going to church and I would probably advocate abortion as a remedy for unwanted children, therapeutic cloning, and eugenics and other forms of scientific attempts to improve humanity that might today be considered "playing God."
Your sense of right and wrong is entierly dependant upon your belief in god? That's disturbing.

jAZ
04-26-2006, 10:23 AM
I would no longer worry about what I did I would only worry about not getting caught. If I needed money I would go get it with the only concern being no witnesses. Non stop sex, explosives, sniper hits, and generally seeing how fast I could burn out the candle of life.
Wow, I'm amazed at the rampant absence of any personal sense of morality among the god fearing crowd. Truely distrubing.

Sully
04-26-2006, 10:24 AM
I doubt I would change much.
I may skip church a little more, but I think my every day living would be the same.

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 10:26 AM
that's a good question...I probably would find something else to worship or something else that would give my life meaning.

That is really the heart of it you need meaning in your life. I believe what makes us different from all the animals is our soul and if there is no God then we have no soul and are no different than the animals. If I'm an animal then I plan on being the preditor.

Of course becoming a Jedi is a good alternative. Thanks Braincase for bringing meaning back to my life.

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 10:43 AM
Wow, I'm amazed at the rampant absence of any personal sense of morality among the god fearing crowd. Truely distrubing.

I appreciate your personal sense of morality. But, it may not be wise to label a whole crowd on my personal sense of morality.

Mr. Kotter
04-26-2006, 10:44 AM
I might spend less time at church. Maybe.

You consider the Foxy Lady Gentlemen's Club a church? :spock:

:p

Eye Patch
04-26-2006, 11:04 AM
I think a better question is…. What would you do if you absolutely were given complete proof there "was" a God? To the point that even atheists had to admit there was a God.

Sully
04-26-2006, 11:06 AM
I think a better question is…. What would you do if you absolutely were given complete proof there "was" a God? To the point that even atheists had to admit there was a God.

Again,
I probably wouldn't change much.

BucEyedPea
04-26-2006, 11:22 AM
That is good to read because I would need people to prey on.


Well now how workable would that be?

I don't think very much, if at all, since one's ethics must include a will to survive and not all alone ( what fun is that...you'd be miserable) even for one's group to endure. So when one's personal ethics are not being used or when one refuses to follow the mores a group one belongs to ....then the group puts it in for them ( to ensure their survival as well)...it's called justice.

Amnorix
04-26-2006, 11:36 AM
Wouldn't change a single thing. I'm agnostic, and don't live my life, make decisions or involve God in anything I do (or don't do). Nor do I go to church, etc. So basically it wouldn't change the teeniest-tiniest thing in my life.

patteeu
04-26-2006, 11:38 AM
Now there is one hate-laced post by a self-professed Christian...I'll be back shortly with a mop to soak up the irony that has spilled all over the BB.

Where did I "self-profess" that? Don't bother searching because I can guarantee you that it never happened. In fact, I could have sworn that I've set you straight on this point before. I'm not a Christian, I'm an agnostic.

And, BTW, what part of my post was hateful? Every interaction with you is like operating in an alternative universe where reality and the meanings of words are unimportant.

Amnorix
04-26-2006, 11:38 AM
What? 95% of your post has nothing to do with the question I asked you.

Your previous post sounded like you were suggesting that without religion, we would have no direction for a moral compass. As if people didn't think murder was wrong until Moses came along and told them it was. I would dispute that.

You do realize that people had a sense of right and wrong before your alledged 10 commandments, don't you?

You're debating against a fool. you know that right?

I mean, obviously, non-Judeo-Christians have a completely different moral compass. For examples, Hindus are known cannibals, and Shinto practitioners sacrifice their children....

:shake:

Amnorix
04-26-2006, 11:41 AM
I think a better question is…. What would you do if you absolutely were given complete proof there "was" a God? To the point that even atheists had to admit there was a God.


If it was ALSO proven to me that he cared about such things, then I would make significant changes in my life with regard to worshipping him, most likely.

But "there IS a God" does not equal "every word of the Bible is true" or even "and he cares that we bow down to him".

Frankly, if I was an omnipotent, omniscient being, I'd be very unlikely to give a rat's ass what pissant humans did...

patteeu
04-26-2006, 11:56 AM
Your sense of right and wrong is entierly dependant upon your belief in god? That's disturbing.

What belief in God is that?

None of those things I said I'd do represent departures from my current sense of right and wrong. The only difference is how much of an advocate I am for those positions. Given that a large chunk of our population is against many of those things at a level that is pretty fundamental (religous belief), I'm not interested in trying to force them to accept a society that so fundamentally clashes with their traditional beliefs.

In the case of abortion, we have adequate alternatives that I don't see any strong need for abortion and I certainly don't believe it should be a right either way (right of the mother to abort or right of the fetus to live). But if it wasn't such a contentious issue, I wouldn't have a problem with abortion, especially in the case where a fetus has obvious, significant birth defects or in the case where the parent(s) will not be able to care for the child (e.g. they are on their way to prison, are perpetually unemployed/on the dole, or they are facing a terminal/incapacitating illness).

In the cases of eugenics, genetic manipulation, therapeutic cloning, reproductive cloning, etc., I'm OK with them today although I think scientists in these fields have an obligation to consider the risks to society when they develop their professional ethics. I don't take the position that these things are necessary for human advancement and anyone who opposes them is standing between me and a potential cure for whatever malady I might have or might someday get, though. Eventually, society will accept some or all of these things (just like it will eventually accept gay marriage) and I'll be OK with that.

P.S. I only go to church now because my parents and my wife are believers and because I think it's good for my kids to be raised in the tradition of a religious belief until they are old enough to decide for themselves what they believe.

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 11:58 AM
Well now how workable would that be?

I don't think very much, if at all, since one's ethics must include a will to survive and not all alone ( what fun is that...you'd be miserable) even for one's group to endure. So when one's personal ethics are not being used or when one refuses to follow the mores a group one belongs to ....then the group puts it in for them ( to ensure their survival as well)...it's called justice.

I thought will to survival was an instinct not an ethic.

Why should I be interested in anything workable? The group I belonged to no longer exists and my soul is gone. The only thing I'm interested in is my next meal. You ever seen a male cat kill a kitten just so the female will go into heat? I guess that could be called animal ethics.

Jilly
04-26-2006, 12:12 PM
I am absolutely sure there is some Ultimate Being; and I wouldn't change my life a bit. I already live life that way. Of course I'd like to be perfect, but I never will be, far from it.

Jilly
04-26-2006, 12:17 PM
I doubt I would change much.
I may skip church a little more, but I think my every day living would be the same.

I'm telling your minister fiance!

A couple of you said skip church....to do what though? Watch more TV, jack around on the interent more....it would always be replaced by something that seems important. Like Chief Faithful said, I really honestly do believe that worship is part of humanity's being. I worship God, but if I found out there was not God, I would find something else. For some people - they worship sports, work, family, material possessions....mainly because without those things life would seem empty. it is a soul's desire, I think, to have meaning.

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 12:25 PM
I am absolutely sure there is some Ultimate Being; and I wouldn't change my life a bit. I already live life that way. Of course I'd like to be perfect, but I never will be, far from it.

I believe our ability to reason like this is proof of our creator and why I think this thread is so fun.

Without God I'm just another animal competing for food and sex.

mlyonsd
04-26-2006, 12:30 PM
Wow, I'm amazed at the rampant absence of any personal sense of morality among the god fearing crowd. Truely distrubing.

So what you're saying is you being a judgmental finger pointing whiney azz wouldn't change?

Chief Faithful
04-26-2006, 12:30 PM
I'm telling your minister fiance!

For some people - they worship sports, work, family, material possessions....mainly because without those things life would seem empty. it is a soul's desire, I think, to have meaning.

I think I worship the Chiefs, Royals, and Kings although I have been missing The Church Of The Latter Days Royals just a little.

Cochise
04-26-2006, 12:44 PM
How can a negative ever be proved in the infinite?

Ex: How can I say, 100% that there is no such thing as a platypus that composes slam poetry in sanskit anywhere in the universe? To be able to honestly say that, I would have to know everything about the universe, because if there's anything I don't know, the existence of that animal could be it.

So, I think the original question is a logical impossibility.

BucEyedPea
04-26-2006, 01:18 PM
I thought will to survival was an instinct not an ethic.

Why should I be interested in anything workable? The group I belonged to no longer exists and my soul is gone. The only thing I'm interested in is my next meal. You ever seen a male cat kill a kitten just so the female will go into heat? I guess that could be called animal ethics.

The difference between man and any animal is that we are sentient beings that have the ability to reason ( if we don't abandon it)....which is why we create works of art, build skysrapers....ever see any animal do that?

And no... survival is NOT just about basics like food...it's about love and the higher things in life that give quality to life and enrich it. You could say ethics are reason. In fact ethics happen to be a branch of philosophy...and economics is a branch of ethics.

Nightwish
04-26-2006, 01:40 PM
I wouldn't do things much different. I already live according to the possibility that there is no God, and I look to society and instinct for a moral compass. Morality has always been socially derived, so unless proof of no God were to somehow lead to the complete collapse of society, then morality will continue to function largely unabridged.

Dave Lane
04-26-2006, 01:44 PM
If it was ALSO proven to me that he cared about such things, then I would make significant changes in my life with regard to worshipping him, most likely.

But "there IS a God" does not equal "every word of the Bible is true" or even "and he cares that we bow down to him".

Frankly, if I was an omnipotent, omniscient being, I'd be very unlikely to give a rat's ass what pissant humans did...


Well Cartman did when his sea monkeys built a civilisation based on worshipping him. Could it be that god is a little like Cartman? Actually that might explain a lot.

Dave

jAZ
04-26-2006, 01:50 PM
I believe what makes us different from all the animals is our soul and if there is no God then we have no soul and are no different than the animals.
I didn't know that soul=god.

Dave Lane
04-26-2006, 02:02 PM
Jaz I do think I understand why many of the religious types are they way they are based on this thread. It is all that stands between them and personal anarchy in their own minds. I actually live my life in a xtain way in spite of being agnostic. However it seems some of them NEED the discipline and threat of eternal torment to behave. Perhaps I have learned something after all. Religion is good for restraining these types from acts of violence and retribution. Maybe its why I see hate and anger toward liberals over spilling at times as they feel restrained and repressed from what they truly desire.

Dave

Sully
04-26-2006, 02:14 PM
Jaz I do think I understand why many of the religious types are they way they are based on this thread. It is all that stands between them and personal anarchy in their own minds. I actually live my life in a xtain way in spite of being agnostic. However it seems some of them NEED the discipline and threat of eternal torment to behave. Perhaps I have learned something after all. Religion is good for restraining these types from acts of violence and retribution. Maybe its why I see hate and anger toward liberals over spilling at times as they feel restrained and repressed from what they truly desire.

Dave

The true difference between achieving the 4th or the 3rd stage of emotional development.
(I think those numbers are right, I'll have to grab my book and check)

Nightwish
04-26-2006, 02:17 PM
The true difference between achieving the 4th or the 3rd stage of emotional development.
(I think those numbers are right, I'll have to grab my book and check)
Who's stages? Erickson? Piaget? Freud?

BucEyedPea
04-26-2006, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Chief Faithful
I believe what makes us different from all the animals is our soul and if there is no God then we have no soul and are no different than the animals.
I didn't know that soul=god.

That's pretty much saying the same thing I said just paraphrased.
Spiritual < spirit which is the soul which makes man sentient and capable of reason and love etc. etc. etc.

Religion is a spiritual thing....of the spirit...what can't be seen materially.

Not all theologies however agree on the nature of God/god, even if he is a being that is all knowing (as in knowing the right way to act for any given situation so thinks would always come out right). We have to account for those that don't just in order to get along with each other right. To have agreements on what the basis of some of our laws will be, to have a code to live by.

To me, despite my own personal and private view on God, this is what the spirit is about and what generic references to God/god mean....or even Divine Providence. Afterall, Buddhism is very spiritual, has a system of ethics (good and bad behavior) but does not believe in a god.

Sully
04-26-2006, 02:22 PM
Who's stages? Erickson? Piaget? Freud?

I'm checking... I'M CHECKING!!!!
lol

Sully
04-26-2006, 02:28 PM
It's Kohlberg, in his stages of moral development, and it's the difference between the second stage, and the third stage... or
Morality being based on outside sources vs internal sources.

mlyonsd
04-26-2006, 02:28 PM
Jaz I do think I understand why many of the religious types are they way they are based on this thread. It is all that stands between them and personal anarchy in their own minds. I actually live my life in a xtain way in spite of being agnostic. However it seems some of them NEED the discipline and threat of eternal torment to behave. Perhaps I have learned something after all. Religion is good for restraining these types from acts of violence and retribution. Maybe its why I see hate and anger toward liberals over spilling at times as they feel restrained and repressed from what they truly desire.

Dave

I don't see the connection as there are many "religious types" that happen to be liberal.

I think your original question could be digested in two different ways, learning now that there is no God or being raised as there was no God. A great many humans would have different personalities depending on the situation.

Jilly
04-26-2006, 02:32 PM
I'm liberal, I don't need external forces to keep me in line. I just believe that inherent in the human being is this drive to create meaning for our lives and that meaning gives us purpose. What we truly desire and want in our lives is in direct relation to that purpose. When we start reaching that purpose, working towards that purpose, we begin to understand true passion and true elation.
You're probably right, some people need that external force, but for me, religion is an existential reality that we have to have meaning or we create suffering for ourselves.

Sully
04-26-2006, 02:36 PM
According to Kohlberg, that's the difference. Some peole reach a stage where they can internalize that drive toward morality, and justify it for their own lives. But according to him, some poeple NEVER each that, and the whole idea of moralism comes from outside sources which they can look to.

patteeu
04-26-2006, 02:39 PM
How would you change your life if you found out that God was really HomoGod and his only requirement was that you engage in frequent homosexual relations. Those who abstain or engage only in heterosexual relations would be condemned to spend eternity in a hell that is far worse than the one contemplated by Christianity. Those who have infrequent encounters with the same sex that are limited to handholding and tongue swapping would avoid the worst parts of HomoGod's hell, but they wouldn't have a pleasant afterlife. To get to the highest, most blissful levels of the afterlife, you'd have to engage in frequent and extreme acts of homosexuality. So anyway, how would you change your life? :p ROFL

banyon
04-26-2006, 02:48 PM
I'm liberal, I don't need external forces to keep me in line. I just believe that inherent in the human being is this drive to create meaning for our lives and that meaning gives us purpose. What we truly desire and want in our lives is in direct relation to that purpose. When we start reaching that purpose, working towards that purpose, we begin to understand true passion and true elation.
You're probably right, some people need that external force, but for me, religion is an existential reality that we have to have meaning or we create suffering for ourselves.

Who is the chick in your avy?

Jilly
04-26-2006, 02:49 PM
KT Tunstall

tiptap
04-26-2006, 03:03 PM
So do you find the notion of God absurd, is Jesus a problem, or just religion as bastardized by man?

I am an athiest on most questions, an agnostic on some and a theist on others. For example you could say god is the most powerful being, force whatever. Well of course I admit that is true; the most powerful being I know is real is the POTUS though I find it easy to think there are more powerful beings in space. So a theist on that argumet.

But that means that the suppositions of a religion for their god comes under investigation. The Abrahamic religions all seem to demand a King for their god. (Why not a elected President?) I am not interested in forwarding the cause of a tyrant.

The moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are fine. His divinity is not and is derived mainly from the derivative teachings of Paul based upon his Damascus experience. That drove his theology and so that interpretation of Jesus, the risen Christ. It was the early and enthusiatic recruitment of Gentiles to the percieved ancient Jewish religion, that built a following early. It was carried forward as much by Jesus' teachings. That was the good part.

For me the bastardization came early and was by Paul and his disciples Luke, Mark, Timothy, Barnabas etc.

Jilly
04-26-2006, 03:14 PM
It was bastardized before he was even born, really, as early as Plato when he decided that the material world was bad and the spiritual world was good. That notion further perpetuated by a culture, including Paul (who's ideas were extremely Platonic), that continued to separate the spiritual world and physical world so that the idea of having a human incarnation of the Deity seemed absurd, grotesque, and something that needed to fast be overcome. So they emphasized Jesus as part of the Trinity, an incarnation of God, to overcome a cultural ethic.

irishjayhawk
04-26-2006, 06:29 PM
I'll be happy I wasn't a blind sheep.

Mr. Kotter
04-26-2006, 06:46 PM
I'll be happy I wasn't a blind sheep.Don't underestimate yourself. :)



I know plenty of blind sheep who worship at the alter of secular humanist narcissists (SHN,) or at the anti-religious bigotry and religious defamation league (ARBRDL.) ;)

Adept Havelock
04-26-2006, 09:10 PM
Don't underestimate yourself. :)



I know plenty of blind sheep who worship at the alter of secular humanist narcissists (SHN,) or at the anti-religious bigotry and religious defamation league (ARBRDL.) ;)


How would it change my life if I had conclusive proof their was no god? I'm fairly certain the answer is "not at all".

WoodDraw
04-26-2006, 10:18 PM
Wow, good questions on CP today.

My belief in a God has never focused around moral beliefs (although I'm sure it has impacted them more than I realize), but the idea that there is something more to life then being alive for a few decades out of billions of years. Without something more - something beyond are purely human existance - life has an inherent meaninglessness to me.

That belief raises a whole knew set of philosophical questions though - mainly, if the after life is the main goal, the final destination, and hell doesn't exist, as I generally believe, then what purpose does our earthly existance have?

I'll have to do some more thinking...

Chiefs Express
04-26-2006, 10:23 PM
How would it change my life if I had conclusive proof their was no god? I'm fairly certain the answer is "not at all".

Considering yo never believed before why would anyone expect any other answer from you?

If I had some time I'd like to ask you about a hundred questions about what you do believe, but as I don't and if I did they wouldn't be answered in a manner respective to the question.

I have no doubt that you'd answer with respect to the line of the questions, but there are others that couldn't leave it alone.

Some other time.

go bowe
04-27-2006, 12:09 AM
Where did I "self-profess" that? Don't bother searching because I can guarantee you that it never happened. In fact, I could have sworn that I've set you straight on this point before. I'm not a Christian, I'm an agnostic.

And, BTW, what part of my post was hateful? Every interaction with you is like operating in an alternative universe where reality and the meanings of words are unimportant.an aternative universe, with acceleration approaching the speed of shit, er... light...

and red shifts and blue shifts and short shifts...

yes, i think i know what you mean...

Dave Lane
04-27-2006, 12:22 AM
I'm telling your minister fiance!

A couple of you said skip church....to do what though? Watch more TV, jack around on the interent more....it would always be replaced by something that seems important. Like Chief Faithful said, I really honestly do believe that worship is part of humanity's being. I worship God, but if I found out there was not God, I would find something else. For some people - they worship sports, work, family, material possessions....mainly because without those things life would seem empty. it is a soul's desire, I think, to have meaning.


No you are close though. Its a persons desire to be special or have meaning. Not your soul but your selt that wants this. And you are right some people become draftniks or music hounds or heaven forbid nascar fans.

Dave

irishjayhawk
04-27-2006, 11:12 AM
Don't underestimate yourself. :)



I know plenty of blind sheep who worship at the alter of secular humanist narcissists (SHN,) or at the anti-religious bigotry and religious defamation league (ARBRDL.) ;)


:hmmm:

True. But I ain't one of them. :harumph: :)

BucEyedPea
04-27-2006, 11:40 AM
No you are close though. Its a persons desire to be special or have meaning. Not your soul but your selt that wants this. And you are right some people become draftniks or music hounds or heaven forbid nascar fans.

Dave

See now...I say the "soul" or "spirit" is the same as the "self"...a "being" that is
aware that it is aware and perceives. Consciousness. It never dies. Only the body dies a material death.

The self is not the "mind" or the "brain" until we entered the modern era which gave us fallacies such as the philosophy of materialism: that man is all physical matter and nothing more. Hence Darwin, Freud and Marx...the bane of the 20th century and it's pernicious ideologies of socialism, communism and facism, all sister philosophies btw.

These ideas are covered under the subject of Ontology a branch of Metaphysics. Even Aristotle was aware of this. There is the seen and the unseen.

Nightwish
04-27-2006, 02:46 PM
The self is not the "mind" or the "brain" until we entered the modern era which gave us fallacies such as the philosophy of materialism: that man is all physical matter and nothing more.
Why is that a fallacy? I personally believe in the existence of the spirit or soul, but I recognize that this is a spiritual ideology that isn't supported by empirical observation. A fallacy, as I'm sure you're aware, is an error in logic. Lacking any empirical evidence that there is anything more to us than our physical components, where is the fallacy or logical error in assuming that's the outer limit of our being?

listopencil
04-28-2006, 01:08 PM
No change whatsoever.

Dave Lane
04-28-2006, 01:38 PM
See now...I say the "soul" or "spirit" is the same as the "self"...a "being" that is
aware that it is aware and perceives. Consciousness. It never dies. Only the body dies a material death.

The self is not the "mind" or the "brain" until we entered the modern era which gave us fallacies such as the philosophy of materialism: that man is all physical matter and nothing more. Hence Darwin, Freud and Marx...the bane of the 20th century and it's pernicious ideologies of socialism, communism and facism, all sister philosophies btw.

These ideas are covered under the subject of Ontology a branch of Metaphysics. Even Aristotle was aware of this. There is the seen and the unseen.


Hmmm I may have to do another thread on what would you do if you knew there was no afterlife of any type. I know its hard to accept or understand but it amazes me that people are so arrogant as to think yes I will go on forever. Its really silly but I suppose understandable.

Dave

BucEyedPea
04-28-2006, 04:41 PM
Hmmm I may have to do another thread on what would you do if you knew there was no afterlife of any type. I know its hard to accept or understand but it amazes me that people are so arrogant as to think yes I will go on forever. Its really silly but I suppose understandable.

Dave

Usually when people are projecting qualities and attributes on others such as "arrogant" I figure they're just talking about themselves.

Why is that a fallacy? I personally believe in the existence of the spirit or soul, but I recognize that this is a spiritual ideology that isn't supported by empirical observation. A fallacy, as I'm sure you're aware, is an error in logic. Lacking any empirical evidence that there is anything more to us than our physical components, where is the fallacy or logical error in assuming that's the outer limit of our being?

First off just because someone thinks something is a "fallacy" doesn't make it so; nor make it "logical." It's just someone's opinion.

But every field of study has it's own methods of proof. Empirical observation is fine for some things but not for others. Often we feel the effects of things we cannot see. The study of reality, existence and beingness are more suited to the field of Ontology a branch of Metaphysics. This is where the modern mind errs imo...being so immersed in materialism, which is also a philosophy btw.

Even Aristotle, who invented a form of logic...including the scientific method used today, used reason to came to similar conclusions. And no, he did not come to them out of fear of the political climate of his time.

And we just can't explain certain paranormal phenomena using the world of molecules. I doubt we ever will as we are mixing realms.

stevieray
04-28-2006, 07:53 PM
Good thread and discussion.

I really don't think I'd approach my life any differently.

Kids do that to you. Or at least for me.

I know that in my twenties I lived like I didn't believe, and even though I made it through some bad decisons, I know I didn't feel whole, or that my life had purpose. I know that others are capable of feeling life has purpose without God, and I don't disparage that. On the flip side, others need something to feel grounded to.

upbringing has a lot to do with it, and people from both sides prosper, I guess thats what makes us all individuals, with individual needs, and the fact that we have coexisted for so long confirms that we all find what we are looking for in our choices. We all have sense of right and wrong...that has to come from somewhere.

Mr. Kotter
04-28-2006, 11:17 PM
Good thread and discussion.

I really don't think I'd approach my life any differently.

Kids do that to you. Or at least for me.

I know that in my twenties I lived like I didn't believe, and even though I made it through some bad decisons, I know I didn't feel whole, or that my life had purpose. I know that others are capable of feeling life has purpose without God, and I don't disparage that. On the flip side, others need something to feel grounded to.

upbringing has a lot to do with it, and people from both sides prosper, I guess thats what makes us all individuals, with individual needs, and the fact that we have coexisted for so long confirms that we all find what we are looking for in our choices. We all have sense of right and wrong...that has to come from somewhere.

Kids change EVERYTHING, don't they?