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View Full Version : My case for a 1st-round safety...Jimmy Williams


htismaqe
04-27-2006, 06:11 AM
Not 1st day. 1st ROUND. And specifically, Jimmy Williams.

Exhibit 1: The San Diego Chargers

Despite the drafting of all-world DRoY Shawne Merriman, the Chargers were still bottom-5 in the league in nearly every pass defense category.

Exhibit 2: Kendrell Bell

Former all-world DRoY just like Shawne Merriman. Suffered last year for whatever reason, but was obviously not used correctly. This year, he's slated to play down on the line, much like Thomas used to. Whether or not he's the answer remains to be seen, but his production prior to KC (when he was used correctly and healthy) is far superior to anyone we have on the team currently.

Exhibit 3: The top 10 defenses in the league.

Out the top 10 defenses in the league, 6 had 1st-round S's starting for them. Only 4 of them had somebody with double-digit sacks. And only 4 of them were in the top 10 in sacks. 4 of them were actually in the bottom half in sacks.

Exhibit 4: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/print/3828/

If you actually read the section "Early Round Peak" and see what they say about safeties, you'll see that it's not saying what many of you thought at all. First, they're looking at STARTERS, not studs. And they're looking at safeties EVEN if they've moved to other positions, like CB (their example: Troy Vincent). Taking that into account, their list includes both GREG WESLEY and WILLIAM BARTEE "so the freakishly talented athletes are rare at this position"

jiveturkey
04-27-2006, 07:34 AM
You make a strong case.

I'm fine with the pick if he's there but if he's not who do you like in the 2nd round?

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 09:01 AM
I'm not sure I'd take a safety in the 2nd round.

If Williams is gone, I'd look to take Lawson in the 1st and a CB in the 2nd.

If Williams and Lawson are both gone, I'd probably trade down.

If Williams is there and we take him, I'd target Tapp in the 2nd.

jiveturkey
04-27-2006, 09:03 AM
I'm not sure I'd take a safety in the 2nd round.

If Williams is gone, I'd look to take Lawson in the 1st and a CB in the 2nd.

If Williams and Lawson are both gone, I'd probably trade down.

If Williams is there and we take him, I'd target Tapp in the 2nd.I can live with that.

But if we trade down what position would you target? Hali or a different CB?

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 09:18 AM
I can live with that.

But if we trade down what position would you target? Hali or a different CB?

Depends on how far we traded down. If we could get into the 28-32 range, I'd probably look at Hali.

ct
04-27-2006, 09:22 AM
Depends on how far we traded down. If we could get into the 28-32 range, I'd probably look at Hali.

I agree with that. If it's only a few spots, I'd still look at CBs or Holmes is he's still there.

I still have this damn idea from Coogs in my head, that the Jets might want to jump in front of the Pats. We give 20+54 for 29+35, and perhaps hold our 4th round pick for ransom, and regain that as well. We could get Hali and a good CB/S prospect with 29/35.

Woodrow Call
04-27-2006, 09:23 AM
I am on the Williams bandwagon. If Williams is gone I wouldnt mind trading down and getting Allen. Then grab Jennings or Tapp in the 2nd.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 09:27 AM
I am on the Williams bandwagon. If Williams is gone I wouldnt mind trading down and getting Allen. Then grab Jennings or Tapp in the 2nd.

If Allen slips that far, it probably means his hip problem is worse than thought. Right now, Allen is a guy I would avoid.

eazyb81
04-27-2006, 09:45 AM
I'm fine with taking J-Will in the 1st, but what if the Chiefs draft him as a CB rather than a safety? Is he still going to be the slam dunk pick for you?

Also, I don't understand why people would want Tapp with our scheme. What position do you guys expect him to play for us? He's not big or fast enough for DE in a 4-3, are you wanting him to play OLB? He just seems like the classic case of a great college player who's game doesn't translate well to the pros.

Mr. Laz
04-27-2006, 09:47 AM
1st round safety ......... not gonna happen

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 09:58 AM
I'm fine with taking J-Will in the 1st, but what if the Chiefs draft him as a CB rather than a safety? Is he still going to be the slam dunk pick for you?

Also, I don't understand why people would want Tapp with our scheme. What position do you guys expect him to play for us? He's not big or fast enough for DE in a 4-3, are you wanting him to play OLB? He just seems like the classic case of a great college player who's game doesn't translate well to the pros.

Tapp was 6'2" and 262 pounds at the combine. He's definitely big enough.

He doesn't have the flashy workout numbers, but the guy just flat-out performed in college.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 09:58 AM
And I'm OK with Williams as a CB, although if we're gonna go CB I'd rather go with a true CB...

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 10:00 AM
1st round safety ......... not gonna happen

Probably not. The Chiefs aren't smart enough to make the move.

eazyb81
04-27-2006, 10:13 AM
Tapp was 6'2" and 262 pounds at the combine. He's definitely big enough.

He doesn't have the flashy workout numbers, but the guy just flat-out performed in college.

Eh, I really don't know if his combination of size and speed is big enough to play as DE in a 4-3. He is a bit undersized for standard DE measurables, but that would be okay if he was explosive and fast. But he really isn't that fast, he ran a 4.8 in his 40 at the combine. Undersized and slow isn't a good combination in my book.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 10:39 AM
Eh, I really don't know if his combination of size and speed is big enough to play as DE in a 4-3. He is a bit undersized for standard DE measurables, but that would be okay if he was explosive and fast. But he really isn't that fast, he ran a 4.8 in his 40 at the combine. Undersized and slow isn't a good combination in my book.

I could absolutely not care less about 40 times for linemen.

Rausch
04-27-2006, 10:44 AM
Probably not. The Chiefs aren't smart enough to make the move.

I don't think they're smart enough to quit making it...

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 10:47 AM
I don't think they're smart enough to quit making it...

Probably. The only thing that would be worse than not addressing the need at safety would be drafting a safety and moving him to CB.

eazyb81
04-27-2006, 10:59 AM
I could absolutely not care less about 40 times for linemen.

So you don't care about their potential to explode past offensive linemen and get in the backfield quickly? Smart outlook you have..... :rolleyes:

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 11:05 AM
So you don't care about their potential to explode past offensive linemen and get in the backfield quickly? Smart outlook you have..... :rolleyes:

The fact that you equate a 40-yard dash with their ability to explode off the line tells me you know virtually nothing about defensive linemen.

eazyb81
04-27-2006, 11:12 AM
The fact that you equate a 40-yard dash with their ability to explode off the line tells me you know virtually nothing about defensive linemen.

Man, you love to insult people, it's pretty funny.

Tell me oh wise one, what would be a good indicator of how well a defensive end could explode off the line? 10 yard dash? Vertical leap? 3 cone drill? Tapp was below average in almost every one, which leads me to believe that he will not be a successful DE in a 4-3 scheme.

Do you really believe that we should base his ability to play that position in our defense purely off his college production? If so that is extremely ignorant.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 11:24 AM
Man, you love to insult people, it's pretty funny.

Tell me oh wise one, what would be a good indicator of how well a defensive end could explode off the line? 10 yard dash? Vertical leap? 3 cone drill? Tapp was below average in almost every one, which leads me to believe that he will not be a successful DE in a 4-3 scheme.

Do you really believe that we should base his ability to play that position in our defense purely off his college production? If so that is extremely ignorant.

All of those things you mentioned would be a better indicator than 40-yard dash. Funny you didn't mention them before...

And no, I don't believe we should base his ability to play solely on his college production. Nor should we just forget about it.

Again, I'm talking about taking him FIFTY FOURTH OVERALL.

And yes, I love to insult people.

Munson
04-27-2006, 11:54 AM
The Chiefs have no business taking a first round safety. They need to solidify the front seven before they do that.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 12:07 PM
The Chiefs have no business taking a first round safety. They need to solidify the front seven before they do that.

Yeah, the picks of Sims, Freeman, Johnson, Mitchell, Fox, Downing, Allen, Hall (trade)...lord knows we should spend a few more picks on the front 7, it's worked so well.

jiveturkey
04-27-2006, 12:11 PM
I think that adding speed to the secondary has to be a top priority.

Gaz
04-27-2006, 12:15 PM
While I understand the frustration that drives the urge, past failure is no reason to give up on improving the DL.

I am not yet ready to give up on Sims or Siavii [although I am willing to concede that I could just be mired in denial], but I cannot accept the idea that the addition of a Safety will fix our pass defense. That particular repair job must begin with the pass rush, which means the DL. Yes, we need an upgrade at Safety, but the DL is a far more critical need.

However, if you cannot abide throwing another pick at the DT position [and I cannot fault you for that], you are welcome to join me in the “Sims or Siavii will pick it up this season” bandwagon and look at drafting a DE to replace Hicks.

xoxo~
Gaz
Living on hope.

ct
04-27-2006, 12:18 PM
While I understand the frustration that drives the urge, past failure is no reason to give up on improving the DL.

I am not yet ready to give up on Sims or Siavii [although I am willing to concede that I could just be mired in denial], but I cannot accept the idea that the addition of a Safety will fix our pass defense. That particular repair job must begin with the pass rush, which means the DL. Yes, we need an upgrade at Safety, but the DL is a far more critical need.

However, if you cannot abide throwing another pick at the DT position [and I cannot fault you for that], you are welcome to join me in the “Sims or Siavii will pick it up this season” bandwagon and look at drafting a DE to replace Hicks.

xoxo~
Gaz
Living on hope.


I've been aboard that wagon for awhile, but it's gettin mighty bumpy. Yet I still hold on...

Gaz
04-27-2006, 12:18 PM
Yah, speed in the secondary is a problem for the Chiefs.

xoxo~
Gaz
Almost fast enough to be a Safety for Kansas City.

Gaz
04-27-2006, 12:19 PM
I've been aboard that wagon for awhile, but it's gettin mighty bumpy. Yet I still hold on...

It is getting tough to hang on, ennit?

xoxo~
Gaz
Hanging on in quiet desperation.

ct
04-27-2006, 12:29 PM
It's like a 4 year hay-rack ride. Only so long that pile of hay keeps it's cushion on yer bum. Gets pretty painful after awhile.

BigChiefFan
04-27-2006, 12:30 PM
Williams is a quality player, they're some players we SHOULD take ahead of him, but not many. I agree with a pass-rush solving our woes, but Williams is considered to be a top 10 player by many, no way I'd be displeased with him. I'd prefer Manny Lawson, but Williams is a headhunter with an attitude.

Spicy McHaggis
04-27-2006, 02:16 PM
Man, you love to insult people, it's pretty funny.

Tell me oh wise one, what would be a good indicator of how well a defensive end could explode off the line? 10 yard dash?

Actually I really wish they would post 10 yard dash times. You run 10 yards or less in football a hell of a lot more than you do 40.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 02:22 PM
While I understand the frustration that drives the urge, past failure is no reason to give up on improving the DL.

I am not yet ready to give up on Sims or Siavii [although I am willing to concede that I could just be mired in denial], but I cannot accept the idea that the addition of a Safety will fix our pass defense. That particular repair job must begin with the pass rush, which means the DL. Yes, we need an upgrade at Safety, but the DL is a far more critical need.

However, if you cannot abide throwing another pick at the DT position [and I cannot fault you for that], you are welcome to join me in the “Sims or Siavii will pick it up this season” bandwagon and look at drafting a DE to replace Hicks.

xoxo~
Gaz
Living on hope.


This is the same thing BCF and I were going on about yesterday.

We're talking about making a difference with ONE pick. A pass rush comes from more than one person, in most cases.

Manny Lawson is the guy we should take. He has the potential to be a Derrick Thomas-like player, a guy that can be a pass rush all by himself.

However, if Lawson is not there, there's NO REASON to throw picks at the d-line just because we think we need a better pass rush. A stud like Jimmy Williams in the backfield is a much better use of that pick.

BigChiefFan
04-27-2006, 03:14 PM
This is the same thing BCF and I were going on about yesterday.

We're talking about making a difference with ONE pick. A pass rush comes from more than one person, in most cases.

Manny Lawson is the guy we should take. He has the potential to be a Derrick Thomas-like player, a guy that can be a pass rush all by himself.

However, if Lawson is not there, there's NO REASON to throw picks at the d-line just because we think we need a better pass rush. A stud like Jimmy Williams in the backfield is a much better use of that pick.
I endorse that line of thinking because we still fill a need, with a player of value. That being said, I think we have more of a shot of Lawson being there, than Williams. CBs, that are 6'2", 213 lbs, that can run a 4.4 40 yard dash, who kicked ass at the collegiate level don't grow on trees. I think Williams easily goes in the top 15.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 03:20 PM
I endorse that line of thinking because we still fill a need, with a player of value. That being said, I think we have more of a shot of Lawson being there, than Williams. CBs, that are 6'2", 213 lbs, that can run a 4.4 40 yard dash, who kicked ass at the collegiate level don't grow on trees. I think Williams easily goes in the top 15.

I think you're probably right. But you never know.

jspchief
04-27-2006, 03:50 PM
And yes, I love to insult people.ROFL I knew there was a reason I liked you.

jspchief
04-27-2006, 03:53 PM
While I understand the frustration that drives the urge, past failure is no reason to give up on improving the DL.

I am not yet ready to give up on Sims or Siavii [although I am willing to concede that I could just be mired in denial], but I cannot accept the idea that the addition of a Safety will fix our pass defense. That particular repair job must begin with the pass rush, which means the DL. Yes, we need an upgrade at Safety, but the DL is a far more critical need.

However, if you cannot abide throwing another pick at the DT position [and I cannot fault you for that], you are welcome to join me in the “Sims or Siavii will pick it up this season” bandwagon and look at drafting a DE to replace Hicks.

xoxo~
Gaz
Living on hope.
This reminds me of what I said last off season about Mitchell. At some point you have to expect some return on these youngs guys that haven't shown anything thus far. You can't draft a MLB every other year, while ignoring other positions of need. I think this year you could say that about a lot of positions. We're going to have to hope for something from guys like Battle, Hodge, Thorpe, Siavii (yea right) or Sims.

You just can't replace every bad player in one off-season, so you have to put some faith into our young prospects.

htismaqe
04-27-2006, 04:00 PM
This reminds me of what I said last off season about Mitchell. At some point you have to expect some return on these youngs guys that haven't shown anything thus far. You can't draft a MLB every other year, while ignoring other positions of need. I think this year you could say that about a lot of positions. We're going to have to hope for something from guys like Battle, Hodge, Thorpe, Siavii (yea right) or Sims.

You just can't replace every bad player in one off-season, so you have to put some faith into our young prospects.

Wilkerson and Carlos Hall fit in that category too.

The only position on defense where we don't have any youth that MIGHT be able to step up is at safety.

tk13
04-28-2006, 01:15 AM
I think you make some strong points. I would say that those sack numbers are kinda wishy washy, because you look at a team like Denver, and they don't rack up a lot of sacks but they definitely get in the backfield and wreck a lot of havoc. I bet if you looked a pure QB pressures they'd be up there.

My only argument would be, that Herm has a pretty good track record of drafting safeties in the later rounds. In New York last year they had two middle round picks with a combined 1 year previous experience starting. And they didn't do a bad job. I'd probably take Erik Coleman over Greg Wesley... he started as a rookie on a pretty good defense that almost carried them to the AFC title game. Then last year Kerry Rhodes started pretty much the whole year alongside him.

We do have a coach who can evaluate DB's pretty well, maybe we should use that to our advantage and let him steal somebody in the later rounds. I don't know, I get the feeling that there are going to be some good DB's too tough to pass up at our pick though.

ct
04-28-2006, 03:13 PM
http://fantasyfootball.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.asp?sport=NFL&column=26

This mock has Jimmy Williams sliding out of the 1st entirely.

htismaqe
04-28-2006, 03:31 PM
http://fantasyfootball.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.asp?sport=NFL&column=26

This mock has Jimmy Williams sliding out of the 1st entirely.

Wow, that would be surprising...

jiveturkey
04-28-2006, 03:35 PM
Cromartie and Wimbley have been doing some climbing this week.

BigChiefFan
04-28-2006, 03:37 PM
Cromartie and Wimbley have been doing some climbing this week.
Wimbley sure would look good in Dallas. :p

jiveturkey
04-28-2006, 03:39 PM
Wimbley sure would look good in Dallas. :p
Indeed.

Bowser
04-28-2006, 03:41 PM
And I'm OK with Williams as a CB, although if we're gonna go CB I'd rather go with a true CB...

Maybe we could use Williams as our nickle/dime corner, like what they did with Woods in '03 when our defense actually DID something (until Maz went down). Yes, I know it was a Robinson defense, but they found ways to most effectively use their personnel.

Mr. Laz
04-28-2006, 03:41 PM
Cromartie and Wimbley have been doing some climbing this week.

good ... i hope they get taken in the top 15 and push some other guys down to us.

jiveturkey
04-28-2006, 03:42 PM
good ... i hope they get taken in the top 15 and push some other guys down to us.
According to that mock some quality player will get pushed down to us and then we'll pass on them. :shake:

Bowser
04-28-2006, 03:42 PM
good ... i hope they get taken in the top 15 and push some other guys down to us.

Not a fan of Cromartie's? I kinda hope the guy falls to us.

htismaqe
04-28-2006, 03:43 PM
Wimbley sure would look good in Dallas. :p

The more I see and hear, the more I think Wimbley is going to Dallas.

beer bacon
04-28-2006, 05:01 PM
Not a fan of Cromartie's? I kinda hope the guy falls to us.

I am not a fan of guys that only started one game in college. At least not in the first round.