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memyselfI
04-28-2006, 06:19 AM
orchestrated 'race terror.' I think it's displaced anger that had been directed at Muslims and Arabs now being redirected to Hispanics. Think about it, the whole conquer the ME hasn't worked out so well so that frustration and disgust needs to go SOMEWHERE. Not only does the renewed focus on immigration divert attention and resources from the debacle in the ME, see reallocating $ from the WOT to immigration, it provides a nice outlet for many people's racist tendencies. What better way to stoke American sentiment than to have a war (unspoken but inferred) on illegal immigraton when under attack?

The tone and increase of anti-immigration talk, the violence, and racist language being directed towards Hispanics is almost exactly that of the immediate post 9/11 period. And with the drummed up fear and blame that is being directed towards IAs, it's no wonder that people with a tendency to harbor racist beliefs would seize the opportunity to express them in a renewed 'crisis.'

This along with the desire to break up any type of non-white power base in this country (ie, try to turn African Americans against Hispanics) is a nice way to ensure that same forces that are in play during this 'crisis' stay in play to ensure other such 'crisis.' Is it any wonder that lately when a Republican is in office illegal immigration is at a crisis juncture...coinky dinky?

MOhillbilly
04-28-2006, 07:45 AM
you live in a dream world.

Radar Chief
04-28-2006, 08:11 AM
Well if that’s the case, I believe you can thank your whinny lib friends for lead’n the charge. Haven’t they been the ones campaign’n on “Border Security”. :shrug: ROFL

DanT
04-28-2006, 08:58 AM
The editiorial collective VDARE.COM has a lot of interesting commentary and analysis on the immigration issue. Here's an example:

http://www.vdare.com/

http://www.vdare.com/bevens/060422_minutemen.htm
April 22, 2006


My Night With The Minutemen





By Bryanna Bevens




There has been so much chatter in the MSM about the Minutemen that I just had to ask:*


Who are these Minutemen and what do they do?


For answers to these questions, I headed to the California border with Mexico, where the men and women of the California Minutemen Project are patrolling for the month of April.


We were near Boulevard, in the eastern part of San Diego County. The border there is a rocky, treacherous terrain spotted with vicious cacti that I unfortunately did not notice until I bumped into them...yeah, good times...sigh.


The fence was a joke, by the way. Meaning there really wasn't one


I spent a Saturday night with the Minutemen because that is reportedly the best time to see the action.


Let me tell you a little bit about these marvelous people:


Eric, now in his 80s, fought at the Battle of the Bulge.* He was wounded, captured and held as a prisoner of war for four and a half months.



Rick, standing next to him, served in the Vietnam War.


When his tour was up, Rick returned to California where he established several successful businesses, served on his local school board and mowed the lawns for free—just because somebody needed to. (Charming as the day is long, he reminds me of Forrest Gump without the low IQ or the obsession with Jen-nay.)


Steve, a proud U.S. citizen and immigrant from Brighton, England. In 1979, Steve left England armed with a 6 month Visa to work for a bank in Manhattan which later sponsored him for a Green Card.


When Steve married an American woman, there were a handful of cynics who accused him of only seeking *citizenship via matrimony…so Steve flat refused to apply for a visa through his new bride.


A software engineer, he moved to Dayton, Ohio and waited eight years for his citizenship to come through.


“I love this country…I love this country more than most who were born here” he told me. “That’s why I’m out here—I can’t stand what’s happening to America.”


Other volunteers were school teachers, businessmen, doctors and scientists…a famous scientist in particular.


Johan V. Hultin…you may have heard of him.


He recovered specimens from the 1918 Spanish flu which will now be used to create a vaccine for the Avian Flu.* [More info here]


Yeah…sounds like a real vigilante.


And one of my favorites…


C. Frederick Braun, a writer with several published works to his credit including Two Seconds and Border War.


Now these men are volunteer Minutemen—great Americans and beloved war heroes.


To be fair, there have been myriad stories generated by the MSM about the paramilitary-style of the Minutemen Corps.*


Not to mention the images the MSM just love to publish! *For example: if there is a Confederate flag within a 50-mile radius of the Minuteman camp that will be the footage the MSM focuses on with some ghastly headline such as Neo-Nazi Border Patrol blah, blah, blah…


I suppose it could be difficult for the average American to ascertain the truth when the story is told almost entirely from the (ahem!) not-so-objective perspective of say, CNN.


Tim Donnelly is President of the California Minutemen. He was kind enough to open up the camp to me and show me the ropes.


In his day job, Tim is a successful businessman. He volunteered to organize the California Minutemen because, once again, somebody needed to do it.


Tim’s wife, the mother of his five sons, is Filipino.* Her father spent 12 years separated from his family in order to immigrate legally to the U.S.


As Tim explained it “He says that was the price he paid to give his family a better life in America.”


Unlike the MSM, I didn’t see a single Neo-Nazi—or anything even in that ballpark.*


On the contrary, when one member arrived for duty wearing full camouflage, Tim instructed him to change clothes—full camouflage or military-esque appearances are forbidden by Minuteman standard operating procedure.


Another Minuteman, Carl, had the dubious honor of guiding me up a hill to a main look-out point…


The path was littered with “booties” and garbage left by smugglers and their party.* Booties are strips of fabric that illegal aliens tie around the feet to conceal their footprints from immigration authorities.


Carl shared a couple of recent events with me.


A few nights before I arrived, a group of four Arab men snuck across the border and walked right through the Minuteman camp, apparently unaware of its location.*


Yes, four Arab men.


(Caution: next part contains graphic material).


Carl also told me about a particularly horrifying event from the previous week. He and the men with him heard the screams of a woman piercing the quiet of the night. The screams came from the Mexican side of the border, some distance from where Carl stood.*


A woman was being raped by a hired coyote who had brought her within site of the American border and then demanded more money.


She couldn’t pay, so he raped her—they later found her panties tied to the border fence as a trophy and a warning to other women who can’t cough up more money.


The Minutemen never found out what finally became of her.


The look on Carl’s face made clear how frustrated he was that he was powerless to help—the Minutemen cannot cross the border…that would be illegal entry into Mexico, a serious crime in Mexican law!


Within an hour of my arrival, one patrol group radioed back to camp that twenty people were spotted hiding on the side of a hill just on the other side of the U.S. border. They were clearly waiting for the opportunity to cross the border undetected.


The U.S. Border Patrol was notified. Then the Minutemen just set up camp on the U.S. side of the border directly across from the border crossers and watched them—nothing more.


Border Patrol, of course, cannot approach anyone unless they actually cross the border. So would-be illegal aliens usually just wait for the Patrol to leave.


By the early hours of the next morning, the twenty would-be illegal aliens had grown frustrated with the Minutemen, whom they had now determined were not U.S. Border Patrol.


They began to hurl rocks at the Minutemen, hoping to run them off…yeah, not a chance.


After hours of what can only be called (ironically) a Mexican Standoff, this group of 20 left the area and retreated back into Mexico.


Tim later emailed me the weekend’s numbers:


This relatively small Minuteman camp had spotted 114 such people. According to Tim,


“40 have been apprehended; 33 TBS (turned back south) and the rest are heading to a Home Depot, a school, a peaceful, pro-American rally, or a neighborhood near you.”***


So who are the Minutemen?


President Bush and various Members of Congress have called them vigilantes.


After getting to know the men and women of the California Minutemen Project, I have a response for our illustrious leaders:


How dare you—you are unfit to represent this nation in any capacity!


Our government tells us that illegal aliens are just doing the job Americans won’t do. Well…


The Minutemen are just doing the job our government won’t do:


Defending America!


Bryanna Bevens is a political consultant and former chief of staff for a member of the California State Assembly.

DanT
04-28-2006, 09:02 AM
Here's a vdare.com contribution from a few days after 9/11.
http://www.vdare.com/pb/wtc.htm
The Role of VDARE.COM After 9/ll: It's The Immigration, Stupid


By Peter Brimelow


I was being interviewed in the Bloomberg studios on the first day of the publicity tour for my notorious book Alien Nation: Common Sense About America’s Immigration Disaster when news of the last great terrorist attack, the Oklahoma City bombing, began to flare across the TV monitors.


For a couple of days thereafter, the fear in the eyes of my immigration enthusiast debating opponents was stark. They already knew, after their disastrous defeat in California’s Proposition 187 the previous year, that their position had no support whatever in the country at large. Now they were afraid that a popular backlash would rout their elite enforcers.


In the event, of course, the government arrested a native-born American, Tim McVeigh. The elite proclaimed that white militias and “hate radio” talkshow hosts were to blame. Our book tour became a nightmare of cancelled TV appearances and aborted print stories. Under the circumstances, it is testimony to the underlying power of the immigration issue that we garnered the ultimately rather large*volume of publicity that we did. Naturally, I have always wondered: what if the perpetrators really had been Arabs?


Well, now the perpetrators – it seems safe to say – really are Arabs. And guess what? Once again, the immigration issue, which was building up nicely has vanished from the establishment media. (But not, however, from talk radio and the internet, bless their little electrons.)


It’s almost as if our leaders don’t want to talk about immigration.


Funny thing.


Yet, to paraphrase the famous slogan of the 1992 Clinton election campaign, “it’s the immigration, stupid.” It is immigration policy that has imported foreign ethnic conflicts, created impenetrable ethnic enclaves and mafias, diluted vetting procedures to the point where mass murderers can learn their skills here on student visas, overwhelmed the law enforcement agencies and – we will almost certainly learn – reduced the citizenship oath to a sick joke.


As with the immigration restriction of the 1920s, it may be immigrant terror attacks that finally frighten the cheap-labor business lobby into patriotism.


Of course, there is a foreign policy dimension to the September 11 attacks. Reasonable men can disagree about it. John Derbyshire, who wrote most recently for us on how nice countries get illegal immigrants, has argued that the Islamists’ antagonism to the West is implacable*and must be fought to a finish. Sam Francis, a leading immigration reform thinker whose syndicated column we always run because it appears to have been a victim of political correctness on establishment “conservative” sites, points out that the U.S. has, perhaps carelessly, done much to stir up this antagonism abroad.* Paul Craig Roberts endorses retaliation but argues that U.S. policies at home, such as immigration, have prepared the way for terrorism.


VDARE.com is not a full-service webzine. We focus on immigration and the National Question because we believe they are no longer covered in the establishment media, liberal or “conservative”. *Generally, we think that revenge is a dish best eaten cold. But we don’t intend to get into the foreign policy debate - except to say that we favor as much American victory as possible.


We are here to point out that, unlike chasing alleged terrorist leaders around Afghanistan with airborne missiles, immigration policy actually offers concrete ways in which America can be defended. The borders can be sealed. Illegals can be expelled. Alien enclaves can be assimilated. And the mounting destabilization of America’s political order*can be stopped - even reversed.


Only a few commentators, like the redoubtable Tom Sowell,*have recognized this immigration dimension. It is our job to hammer home the simple message:


IT’S THE IMMIGRATION, STUPID!


September 16, 2001

DanT
04-28-2006, 09:05 AM
The United States Conference on Catholic Bishops supports the Justice for Immigrants Campaign. Here's a link to the USCCB's webpage on that issue.

http://www.usccb.org/mrs/index043006.shtml

Justice for Immigrants Campaign


The USCCB, along with a number of Catholic organizations, is actively participating in the Justice for Immigrants Campaign, which is designed to promote positive attitudes toward immigrants and achieve needed reforms in our nation’s immigration system.

The Catholic Church in the United States traces her roots to the immigrant experience, with many of the social institutions of the Church, such as schools, hospitals, and social services agencies, having been created largely in response to the needs of immigrants who came to our nation in earlier times.

In recent pastoral letters issued by the bishops of the United States, including Welcoming the Stranger Among Us: Unity in Diversity and Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope, Catholics are called to be a welcoming people and to find ways to carry out the Gospel mandate to “welcome the stranger” among us.

To learn more about these activities, please visit www.justiceforimmigrants.org.

DanT
04-28-2006, 09:11 AM
Heres are 5 principles enumerated in the U.S. Catholic Bishops Pastoral Letter, "Strangers no Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope" (22 January 2003):

http://www.usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml

I. Persons have the right to find opportunities in their homeland.
34. All persons have the right to find in their own countries the economic, political, and social opportunities to live in dignity and achieve a full life through the use of their God-given gifts. In this context, work that provides a just, living wage is a basic human need.

II. Persons have the right to migrate to support themselves and their families.
35. The Church recognizes that all the goods of the earth belong to all people.15 When persons cannot find employment in their country of origin to support themselves and their families, they have a right to find work elsewhere in order to survive. Sovereign nations should provide ways to accommodate this right.

III. Sovereign nations have the right to control their borders.
36. The Church recognizes the right of sovereign nations to control their territories but rejects such control when it is exerted merely for the purpose of acquiring additional wealth. More powerful economic nations, which have the ability to protect and feed their residents, have a stronger obligation to accommodate migration flows.

IV. Refugees and asylum seekers should be afforded protection.
37. Those who flee wars and persecution should be protected by the global community. This requires, at a minimum, that migrants have a right to claim refugee status without incarceration and to have their claims fully considered by a competent authority.

V. The human dignity and human rights of undocumented migrants should be respected.
38. Regardless of their legal status, migrants, like all persons, possess inherent human dignity that should be respected. Often they are subject to punitive laws and harsh treatment from enforcement officers from both receiving and transit countries. Government policies that respect the basic human rights of the undocumented are necessary.

Mr. Kotter
04-28-2006, 09:43 AM
:rolleyes:

:shake:

jAZ
04-28-2006, 10:01 AM
It's different things to different people. There are a lot of racists who are just being racists... but I'd say for the most part its people being naturally selfish (I don't mean that as an insult).

As American's we view being American, being in America and enjoying the benefits of being American... we view those things as "ours".... followed by a "go get your own" mentality.

I'm the same way at times.

Another layer to this is the "why should they not have to follow the laws?" attitude. What makes them special? And if things were ideal, this approach is 100% correct. Unfortunately our system is flawed, and has been for decades.

And last but not least, it's about border security. After 9/11 we really needed to strengthen our borders. A more inclusive immigration policy (guest workers, etc) will push most people though the legal borders and leave the remaining border jumpers to the drug runners and other criminals. It makes the Border Patrol's job MUCH easier.

All in all, I think that most people aren't acting out of racism, but some combination of the latter I described.

Taco John
04-28-2006, 10:46 AM
Uhmmmm... What?

Duck Dog
04-28-2006, 11:03 AM
So by pushing for a policy that would give amnesty to IA's, President Bush is a racist?

DanT
04-28-2006, 12:18 PM
Here's an AP story on how Mexico treats undocumented migrants to their country.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_mistreating_migrants&printer=1;_ylt=ArFqdPfAPJxATBNmBNOXK7G9IxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-

Mexico Harsh to Undocumented Migrants By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer
Tue Apr 18, 6:08 PM ET

Considered felons by the government, these migrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take their money.

While migrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

And though Mexico demands humane treatment for its citizens who migrate to the U.S., regardless of their legal status, Mexico provides few protections for migrants on its own soil. The issue simply isn't on the country's political agenda, perhaps because migrants make up only 0.5 percent of the population, or about 500,000 people — compared with 12 percent in the United States.

The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was apparent Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard outside Mexico City shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made officers think he was a migrant.

Virginia Sanchez, who lives near the railroad tracks that carry Central Americans north to the U.S. border, said such shootings in Tultitlan are common.

"At night, you hear the gunshots, and it's the judiciales (state police) chasing the migrants," she said. "It's not fair to kill these people. It's not fair in the United States and it's not fair here."

Undocumented Central American migrants complain much more about how they are treated by Mexican officials than about authorities on the U.S. side of the border, where migrants may resent being caught but often praise the professionalism of the agents scouring the desert for their trail.

"If you're carrying any money, they take it from you — federal, state, local police, all of them," said Carlos Lopez, a 28-year-old farmhand from Guatemala crouching in a field near the tracks in Tultitlan, waiting to climb onto a northbound freight train.

Lopez said he had been shaken down repeatedly in 15 days of traveling through Mexico.

"The soldiers were there as soon as we crossed the river," he said. "They said, 'You can't cross ... unless you leave something for us.'"

Jose Ramos, 18, of El Salvador, said the extortion occurs at every stop in Mexico, until migrants are left penniless and begging for food.

"If you're on a bus, they pull you off and search your pockets and if you have any money, they keep it and say, 'Get out of here,'" Ramos said.

Maria Elena Gonzalez, who lives near the tracks, said female migrants often complain about abusive police.

"They force them to strip, supposedly to search them, but the purpose is to sexually abuse them," she said.

Others said they had seen migrants beaten to death by police, their bodies left near the railway tracks to make it look as if they had fallen from a train.

The Mexican government acknowledges that many federal, state and local officials are on the take from the people-smugglers who move hundreds of thousands of Central Americans north, and that migrants are particularly vulnerable to abuse by corrupt police.

The National Human Rights Commission, a government-funded agency, documented the abuses south of the U.S. border in a December report.

"One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues is the contradiction in demanding that the North respect migrants' rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South," commission president Jose Luis Soberanes said.

...

More at link. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_mistreating_migrants;_ylt=A86.I1weCkhE6CsB3BYQr7sF;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-)

memyselfI
04-28-2006, 12:23 PM
So by pushing for a policy that would give amnesty to IA's, President Bush is a racist?

I missed the announcement that he's infact doint this. Please provide a link.

memyselfI
04-28-2006, 12:25 PM
Here's an AP story on how Mexico treats undocumented migrants to their country.

Human rights are not a big priority in the country to begin with...

thus, the story doesn't shock me. Not to mention that the US has a rather storied history of violating human rights of illegal immigrants as well.

oldandslow
04-28-2006, 12:28 PM
Human rights are not a big priority in the country to begin with...

thus, the story doesn't shock me. Not to mention that the US has a rather storied history of violating human rights of illegal immigrants as well.

Not as bad as they had concerning the rights of the first inhabitants.

We're all illegal immigrants.

DanT
04-28-2006, 12:37 PM
Human rights are not a big priority in the country to begin with...

thus, the story doesn't shock me. Not to mention that the US has a rather storied history of violating human rights of illegal immigrants as well.

Why do you suppose human rights are not a big priority in Mexico?

memyselfI
04-28-2006, 12:43 PM
Why do you suppose human rights are not a big priority in Mexico?

For the same reasons they are not in most other third world countries...
socio-economic, geo-political, and historical cultural reasons.

Cochise
04-28-2006, 12:48 PM
Why do people post 5000 words worth of print article? Who is going to read all that?

Duck Dog
04-28-2006, 01:11 PM
I missed the announcement that he's infact doint this. Please provide a link.

Link (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041110-123424-5467r.htm)

He's only been touting this plan since 2001.

memyselfI
04-28-2006, 01:13 PM
Link (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041110-123424-5467r.htm)

He's only been touting this plan since 2001.

I still don't see where he says he's giving illegal aliens amnesty. Sorry. I see your interpretation of his actions as such...not the same thing.

DanT
04-28-2006, 01:15 PM
Why do people post 5000 words worth of print article? Who is going to read all that?


Thanks for the complaint. I'll keep that in mind.

mlyonsd
04-28-2006, 01:29 PM
orchestrated 'race terror.' I think it's displaced anger that had been directed at Muslims and Arabs now being redirected to Hispanics. Think about it, the whole conquer the ME hasn't worked out so well so that frustration and disgust needs to go SOMEWHERE. Not only does the renewed focus on immigration divert attention and resources from the debacle in the ME, see reallocating $ from the WOT to immigration, it provides a nice outlet for many people's racist tendencies. What better way to stoke American sentiment than to have a war (unspoken but inferred) on illegal immigraton when under attack?

The tone and increase of anti-immigration talk, the violence, and racist language being directed towards Hispanics is almost exactly that of the immediate post 9/11 period. And with the drummed up fear and blame that is being directed towards IAs, it's no wonder that people with a tendency to harbor racist beliefs would seize the opportunity to express them in a renewed 'crisis.'

This along with the desire to break up any type of non-white power base in this country (ie, try to turn African Americans against Hispanics) is a nice way to ensure that same forces that are in play during this 'crisis' stay in play to ensure other such 'crisis.' Is it any wonder that lately when a Republican is in office illegal immigration is at a crisis juncture...coinky dinky?

If this is true then Gov. Bill Richardson is a racist. Remember that in the Presidential primaries meme.

memyselfI
04-28-2006, 01:35 PM
If this is true then Gov. Bill Richardson is a racist. Remember that in the Presidential primaries meme.

I don't see him using racist rhetoric. I don't see DUHbya doing that either for that matter... :clap:

But many members of his party certainly are stoking fear and race baiting in order to make the problem seem like it's an impending disaster. Again, it's orchestrated. It takes people's minds off of the debacle in Iraq, fact that the US is bent over when it comes to Iran, and that by keeping their base riled and war ready they ensure voters showing up at the polls. We've seen them do this with the WOT, with gays, and now immigration. DUHbya is simply playing good cop to his party's bad cop...

DanT
04-28-2006, 01:40 PM
Here's the lead from a story that appeared in the English edition of Der Spiegel last year.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,358223,00.html

Islam Is Gaining a Foothold in Chiapas

By Jens Glüsing

Long a bastion of Catholicism, southern Mexico is quickly turning into a battleground for soul-savers. Islam, too, is gaining a foothold and the indigenous Mayans are converting by the hundreds. The Mexican government is worried about a culture clash in their own backyard.

Anastasio Gomez, a Tzotzil Mayan from Mexico, fondly remembers his pilgrimage to Mecca. He circled around the Kaaba, the highest sanctuary of Muslims, seven times. At Mount Arafat he prayed to Allah and then he, together with 15 other Indians, sacrificed a sheep before boarding the flight back to their Mexican home.

"In Islam, race plays no role," the young man says joyously. His enthusiasm is understandable. After all, in his home state of Chiapas, Mexico's poorest, the indigenous people are viewed as second class humans, and whites and Mestizos treat the Indian majority as if they weren't there. In the southern Mexican provincial metropolis San Cristóbal de las Casas, the descendants of the Maya even have to move onto the street if a white person approaches them on the sidewalk.

Gomez, 23, converted to Islam eight years ago; ever since then, he has called himself Ibrahim. On his first pilgrimage seven years ago, the Indian was still something of an anomaly. Today, however, Muslim women in headscarves have become a common sight on the streets of San Cristobal.

More at link. (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,358223,00.html)

Cochise
04-28-2006, 01:40 PM
I think it's interesting that the party most against the 'racist' immigration control policies was crying the loudest about arabs running ports.

mlyonsd
04-28-2006, 01:41 PM
I don't see him using racist rhetoric. I don't see DUHbya doing that either for that matter... :clap:

But many members of his party certainly are stoking fear and race baiting in order to make the problem seem like it's an impending disaster. Again, it's orchestrated. It takes people's minds off of the debacle in Iraq, fact that the US is bent over when it comes to Iran, and that by keeping their base riled and war ready they ensure voters showing up at the polls. We've seen them do this with the WOT, with gays, and now immigration. DUHbya is simply playing good cop to his party's bad cop...

Then which cop is Richardson playing?

memyselfI
04-28-2006, 01:47 PM
Then which cop is Richardson playing?

He's asking for the existing laws to be enforced. He's also asking that IAs that are here be given a chance to make themselves legal. His party is not advocating one thing while he's advocating another.

mlyonsd
04-28-2006, 02:14 PM
He's asking for the existing laws to be enforced. He's also asking that IAs that are here be given a chance to make themselves legal. His party is not advocating one thing while he's advocating another.

I'm not sure how you reconcile "asking for the existing laws to be enforced" (meaning send them back) with "asking that IA's here be given a chance to make themselves legal". But that's beside the point.

I don't see evidence of the claim that some Republicans are acting racist.

IMO every side has a dog in this fight and every side has valid points. I think it's best to hash it out now then to pass a law that in 10 years from now we'll be back to the same boat we're in now.

DanT
04-28-2006, 02:40 PM
I'm not sure how you reconcile "asking for the existing laws to be enforced" (meaning send them back) with "asking that IA's here be given a chance to make themselves legal". But that's beside the point.

I don't see evidence of the claim that some Republicans are acting racist.

IMO every side has a dog in this fight and every side has valid points. I think it's best to hash it out now then to pass a law that in 10 years from now we'll be back to the same boat we're in now.

There's a good reason you don't see evidence in this thread for the claim that some Republicans are acting racist. None has been provided.

CHIEF4EVER
04-28-2006, 02:43 PM
I'm not sure how you reconcile "asking for the existing laws to be enforced" (meaning send them back) with "asking that IA's here be given a chance to make themselves legal". But that's beside the point.

I don't see evidence of the claim that some Republicans are acting racist.

IMO every side has a dog in this fight and every side has valid points. I think it's best to hash it out now then to pass a law that in 10 years from now we'll be back to the same boat we're in now.

I agree. People like Mememememememe don't see the ramifications of pandering to people who break our laws to get here. Here are some of them:

1) American jobs are taken by people who don't contribute to the tax base and whose employers don't either.

2) Wages are driven down by the very same people.

3) It is a slap in the face to those who came here legally and went through the process to do so.

4) It sets the precedent that if you break our laws, you get rewarded for doing it.

We need to do 2 things. 1) CLOSE THE BORDER. I saw an estimate somewhere of ca. $6 Billion to build a comprehensive barrier from Brownsville, TX to Imperial Beach, CA. 2) Mandantory jail time for employers who are caught with illegals in their employ.

The effect these 2 measures will have are a reduction of illegal immigration to a trickle in the short term and the voluntary repatriation of most of the existing illegals in the long term. If employers know that they will be going to jail for hiring them, they won't take the risk. No jobs = no motivation for illegals to stay here. Finally, we need to cut off ALL entitlements including free health care for illegals.

CHIEF4EVER
04-28-2006, 02:45 PM
He's asking for the existing laws to be enforced. He's also asking that IAs that are here be given a chance to make themselves legal. His party is not advocating one thing while he's advocating another.

The only motivation Dems have in keeping 12 MILLION illegals is purely political. They are simply pandering to a potential voter base.

Cochise
04-28-2006, 03:12 PM
The only motivation Dems have in keeping 12 MILLION illegals is purely political. They are simply pandering to a potential voter base.

Don't forget, we not only should not deport illegal aliens, we should give them all drivers' licenses, put them all on welfare, educate all their children for them, learn to speak their language to accomodate them, give them all free health care, and eventually let them all vote.

CHIEF4EVER
04-28-2006, 03:18 PM
Don't forget, we not only should not deport illegal aliens, we should give them all drivers' licenses, put them all on welfare, educate all their children for them, learn to speak their language to accomodate them, give them all free health care, and eventually let them all vote.

Dang, I guess I have been wrong all this time. I now see the light........NOT.

ROFL

Loki
04-28-2006, 09:05 PM
I think it's interesting that the party most against the 'racist' immigration control policies was crying the loudest about arabs running ports.

lol... nice.
:clap:

Loki
04-28-2006, 09:13 PM
I agree. People like Mememememememe don't see the ramifications of pandering to people who break our laws to get here. Here are some of them:

1) American jobs are taken by people who don't contribute to the tax base and whose employers don't either.

2) Wages are driven down by the very same people.

3) It is a slap in the face to those who came here legally and went through the process to do so.

4) It sets the precedent that if you break our laws, you get rewarded for doing it.
...


well said.

Loki
04-28-2006, 09:14 PM
Don't forget, we not only should not deport illegal aliens, we should give them all drivers' licenses, put them all on welfare, educate all their children for them, learn to speak their language to accomodate them, give them all free health care, and eventually let them all vote.

aren't we doing all of that already? if only we could do more... :rolleyes:

Sully
04-28-2006, 09:19 PM
It seems pretty simple.
If we crack down on the greedy bastards using illegals' low wage demands for their own profit, then there would be no reason for the illegals to come here.

Hydrae
04-28-2006, 09:59 PM
First, in no way do I think this is a racist issue. You are way off base on this one.

Second, I do think this is being touted as the big talking point for the upcoming mid-term elections to divert attention from real issues like the WOT, the deficit and the economy.

Third, most people seem to have a problem with the immigration issue due to several things mentioned in this thread along the lines of these people not paying taxes and yet receiving "free" services. One more time, if we change the manner in which we collect our tax revenue to a national sales tax, the lack of paying taxes by illegals becomes a moot point. If they are living here, they are buying goods and would then pay taxes just like the rest of us.

As to the entitlement issue, that is another kettle of fish all together. I honestly don't care if you are an illegal alien or a native american who's family has lived here for a thousand years, it is not the governments place to tell me I have to give my money to you. But that is exactly what welffare and the like do to me. There are enough aid groups out there from the Salvation Army to the local church for these people to get the help they need. And if the governement gets out of my pocket, I would be in a better position to help someone out who actually deserves it than I am in now.

memyselfI
04-28-2006, 10:07 PM
First, in no way do I think this is a racist issue. You are way off base on this one.



No, I'm not. First off, I'm not saying it's entirely a race issue. I'm saying it's being used by some people to express racist language and emotions. Those same people were expressing fervent anti-Arab rhetoric just after 9/11. The similiarity is that people who wish to demonize both groups of people are using fear tactics and mongering to manipulate the public into thinking the US is under seige and failure to act against these people will result in our demise.

Basically, my point is the same manipulations of the public are being used by the same people for both issues. And, there are people out there all to willing to seize the opportunity to use the platform to rail against an entire population based on the actions of a few.

CHIEF4EVER
04-28-2006, 10:16 PM
No, I'm not. First off, I'm not saying it's entirely a race issue. I'm saying it's being used by some people to express racist language and emotions. Those same people were expressing fervent anti-Arab rhetoric just after 9/11. The similiarity is that people who wish to demonize both groups of people are using fear tactics and mongering to manipulate the public into thinking the US is under seige and failure to act against these people will result in our demise.

I don't know about the 'fear mongering' people (maybe you could enlighten us who you think 'they' are? However, if we don't do something in a hurry, we WILL be in DEEP trouble. Last time it was 3 million, this time (if they are allowed to stay) it will be over 12 million, next time......you get the picture.

Basically, my point is the same manipulations of the public are being used by the same people for both issues. And, there are people out there all to willing to seize the opportunity to use the platform to rail against an entire population based on the actions of a few.

Horse manure. YOU perceive it that way but that doesn't make it so. Kinda fits neatly in your 'I hate Bush because he is evil' rhetoric tho'. And since when are people who are against illegal aliens against hispanics? You'll have to give me some examples to justify that inane tripe.

Loki
04-28-2006, 10:17 PM
...
into thinking the US is under seige and failure to act against these people will result in our demise
...


are you saying failure to act WON'T result in our demise?

with all the high-tech (domestic) work sent overseas and the illegals
undercutting our wages (and not paying taxes to boot), you don't see
any ramifications in this?

seems to me you're the only one making this a "racial issue" when it's
mostly an economic issue.

WilliamTheIrish
04-28-2006, 10:23 PM
Orchestrated race terror?

People have been discussing US immigration policy since 9-11. Perhaps you've missed those discussions.

Loki
04-28-2006, 10:30 PM
Orchestrated race terror?

People have been discussing US immigration policy since 9-11. Perhaps you've missed those discussions.

it's all whitey's fault dude... the prior discussions are irrelevant.

http://www.robotwisdom.com/issues/whitey2.gif

patteeu
04-29-2006, 09:06 AM
First, in no way do I think this is a racist issue. You are way off base on this one.

And the one before that, and the one before that, and the one before that, etc. ;)

Second, I do think this is being touted as the big talking point for the upcoming mid-term elections to divert attention from real issues like the WOT, the deficit and the economy.

It might be someone's idea of a good issue for the upcoming elections, but it's not the Republicans. This is a wedge issue for the democrats. The Republicans, who are divided, want this to go away. The democrats want it to be an issue that pits Republicans against one another. That's why they killed the Senate immigration compromise according to the Washington Post Editorial board.

...

"It's not gone forward because there's a political advantage for Democrats not to have an immigration bill," said Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-Pa.). Democrats blamed Republican bad faith and said Republicans refused to impose a reasonable limit on amendments. "The amendments were being offered by people who didn't want the bill," said Senate Minority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.).

Both of those assertions contain elements of truth. But Democrats -- whether their motive was partisan advantage or legitimate fear of a bad bill emerging from conference with the House -- are the ones who refused, in the end, to proceed with debate on amendments, which is, after all, how legislation gets made. The unfortunate result is that momentum toward balanced reform may be lost. "The Democratic leadership played politics with the prospect of 10 million immigrants getting on a path to citizenship," said Frank Sharry, executive director of the National Immigration Forum, a pro-immigration group. "It seems that Democratic leaders wanted an issue, not a bill."

...

The measure wasn't perfect, and certainly there are risks in going to conference with the House and its enforcement-only approach. But Democrats putting political self-interest over solving a serious policy problem ought to worry that their actions will backfire with the very people whose interests they are purporting to protect.

Washington Post Editorial (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/07/AR2006040701713.html)

BucEyedPea
04-29-2006, 11:22 AM
orchestrated 'race terror.' I think it's displaced anger that is now being redirected to Americans.

Fixed your post....it is the Hispanic/Latinos that are angry at Americans in this protest right?

unlurking
04-30-2006, 06:24 PM
No, I'm not. First off, I'm not saying it's entirely a race issue. I'm saying it's being used by some people to express racist language and emotions. Those same people were expressing fervent anti-Arab rhetoric just after 9/11. The similiarity is that people who wish to demonize both groups of people are using fear tactics and mongering to manipulate the public into thinking the US is under seige and failure to act against these people will result in our demise.

Basically, my point is the same manipulations of the public are being used by the same people for both issues. And, there are people out there all to willing to seize the opportunity to use the platform to rail against an entire population based on the actions of a few.
Ya know, for a long time I thought you got a lot more shit on this board than you deserved (still do), but you have totally deserved the "moonbat" moniker for this thread. You are the one doing all the "deflecting" here, by calling everyone racist. My personal opinion is that playing the race card is the ultimate in deflection because you have ZERO argument that can be considered logical. Instead you attempt to slander others in an effort to threaten them away from opposing your view point.

I can't stand GWB for his FUD and fear-mongering (that you so often attribute to him ala terror alert). You are worse than he his. Your tactic takes the "with me or against me" attitude and elevates it to a personal attack on everyone opposing your opinion by calling them racist.

For approaching with this tac ma'am, YOU SUCK.

KCChiefsFan88
05-01-2006, 01:56 PM
orchestrated 'race terror.' I think it's displaced anger that had been directed at Muslims and Arabs now being redirected to Hispanics. Think about it, the whole conquer the ME hasn't worked out so well so that frustration and disgust needs to go SOMEWHERE. Not only does the renewed focus on immigration divert attention and resources from the debacle in the ME, see reallocating $ from the WOT to immigration, it provides a nice outlet for many people's racist tendencies. What better way to stoke American sentiment than to have a war (unspoken but inferred) on illegal immigraton when under attack?

The tone and increase of anti-immigration talk, the violence, and racist language being directed towards Hispanics is almost exactly that of the immediate post 9/11 period. And with the drummed up fear and blame that is being directed towards IAs, it's no wonder that people with a tendency to harbor racist beliefs would seize the opportunity to express them in a renewed 'crisis.'

This along with the desire to break up any type of non-white power base in this country (ie, try to turn African Americans against Hispanics) is a nice way to ensure that same forces that are in play during this 'crisis' stay in play to ensure other such 'crisis.' Is it any wonder that lately when a Republican is in office illegal immigration is at a crisis juncture...coinky dinky?

You are confusing being anti-immigrant with being anti ILLEGAL immigrant.

I have no problem with immigrants coming into these country through the LEGAL channels of immigration. What I, and many other Americans have a problem with are people coming into this country illegally.

If all those illegal immigrants really love America and want to be Americans as much as they claim they do... then abide by the laws of our land and go through the LEGAL process of immigrating to this country. And one more thing, don't trash our National Anthem by turning into a Spanish Techno song.

patteeu
05-01-2006, 02:34 PM
The illegal immigration issue is fascinating in the way it cuts across traditional conservative/liberal lines.

memyselfI
05-01-2006, 04:41 PM
Ya know, for a long time I thought you got a lot more shit on this board than you deserved (still do), but you have totally deserved the "moonbat" moniker for this thread. You are the one doing all the "deflecting" here, by calling everyone racist. My personal opinion is that playing the race card is the ultimate in deflection because you have ZERO argument that can be considered logical. Instead you attempt to slander others in an effort to threaten them away from opposing your view point.

I can't stand GWB for his FUD and fear-mongering (that you so often attribute to him ala terror alert). You are worse than he his. Your tactic takes the "with me or against me" attitude and elevates it to a personal attack on everyone opposing your opinion by calling them racist.

For approaching with this tac ma'am, YOU SUCK.


You are incorrect. There is no playing the race card. This issue is about race, and class, culture, and language...see Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity or Michael Savage if you doubt that. And FTR, I'm not calling everyone who disagrees with me a racist. Nor am I calling everyone who disagrees with illegal immigration racist.

I'm calling the orchestrated elevation of the issue and sudden and very intense focus on the 'crisis' a convenient way to divert from a failed war and corruption in WA. I'm saying that TPTB have a VESTED interest in making sure that minority (and I don't mean strictly racial) communities in this country stay that way and that their voices are kept limited. And what better way of doing it (the CON way) by beating a 'war drum.' War on Terror, War on Drugs, War to Defend Marriage, War on Immigration....

all of these wars and yet so little actually accomplished. I'm also saying that some people have taken the opportunity to express racist views/ bigoted views. The same happened with the RWNJs when the 'war' on marriage was being fought. It happened post 9/11. It's not enough to focus on the issue at hand...

a dehumanization and trivialization of the party being fought against MUST occur in order to make sure that RW base is out in force and flexing their muscles to 'defend' the country. :rolleyes:

The only thing you got right in your post is your characterization of GWB...good to know that you are one of the folks coming around on him.

memyselfI
05-01-2006, 04:47 PM
You are confusing being anti-immigrant with being anti ILLEGAL immigrant.

I have no problem with immigrants coming into these country through the LEGAL channels of immigration. What I, and many other Americans have a problem with are people coming into this country illegally.

If all those illegal immigrants really love America and want to be Americans as much as they claim they do... then abide by the laws of our land and go through the LEGAL process of immigrating to this country. And one more thing, don't trash our National Anthem by turning into a Spanish Techno song.

But, you must know the legal process of immigration takes years and money and access and that proccess only allows for 55k immigrants a year...

How is it possible for 3 million people to legally immigrate when the country has set itself up to accept only 55k per year? I agree there is a problem but the problem isn't a crisis (unless you are worried that you will lose your 3 million people majority for the next election) and there is no need to turn every one of these people into felons. There is a need to hold the companies accountable for their hiring practices. Also, there is no reason why immigrants who have been here for years, working, paying taxes, and basically living like Americans should not become one without having to uproot their lives and return to their land of orgin to start the process over.

BucEyedPea
05-01-2006, 05:38 PM
(unless you are worried that you will lose your 3 million people majority for the next election)

This is exactly why the Democrats support it.
What's good for one is good for the other.

Sully
05-01-2006, 05:46 PM
There is a need to hold the companies accountable for their hiring practices.

This is absolutely the answer to the problem. Do this, and the problem goes away, quickly.

patteeu
05-01-2006, 07:32 PM
Also, there is no reason why immigrants who have been here for years, working, paying taxes, and basically living like Americans should not become one without having to uproot their lives and return to their land of orgin to start the process over.

:LOL:

go bowe
05-02-2006, 12:12 AM
:LOL:oh, c'mon...

now you're just being mean...

meme didn't mean start the illegal immigration process again...

otoh, maybe she did... :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

Kraut
05-02-2006, 06:57 AM
orchestrated 'race terror.' I think it's displaced anger that had been directed at Muslims and Arabs now being redirected to Hispanics. Think about it, the whole conquer the ME hasn't worked out so well so that frustration and disgust needs to go SOMEWHERE. Not only does the renewed focus on immigration divert attention and resources from the debacle in the ME, see reallocating $ from the WOT to immigration, it provides a nice outlet for many people's racist tendencies. What better way to stoke American sentiment than to have a war (unspoken but inferred) on illegal immigraton when under attack?

The tone and increase of anti-immigration talk, the violence, and racist language being directed towards Hispanics is almost exactly that of the immediate post 9/11 period. And with the drummed up fear and blame that is being directed towards IAs, it's no wonder that people with a tendency to harbor racist beliefs would seize the opportunity to express them in a renewed 'crisis.'

This along with the desire to break up any type of non-white power base in this country (ie, try to turn African Americans against Hispanics) is a nice way to ensure that same forces that are in play during this 'crisis' stay in play to ensure other such 'crisis.' Is it any wonder that lately when a Republican is in office illegal immigration is at a crisis juncture...coinky dinky?
ROFL :bong:

jAZ
07-08-2008, 03:42 PM
This whole illegal immigration hysteria is actually something else...


This issue is about race, and class, culture, and language...see Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity or Michael Savage if you doubt that.
Interesting to see you playing up the *spanish language nation* topic today now that you have your own agenda you are trying to advance through fear or whatever means necessary.

dirk digler
07-08-2008, 03:45 PM
LMAO

I don't agree with Obama on this issue but you just owned Denise. Good find Jaz.

jAZ
07-08-2008, 03:46 PM
LMAO

I don't agree with Obama on this issue but you just owned Denise. Good find Jaz.

Check his full quote on the other thread and see if you still disagree on the value of raising your child to be bi-lingual. Oh, and don't ever take Denise's word for what Obama says.

;)

dirk digler
07-08-2008, 03:49 PM
Check his full quote on the other thread and see if you still disagree on the value of raising your child to be bi-lingual. Oh, and don't ever take Denise's word for what Obama says.

;)

I don't disagree that children shouldn't learn other languages just that he shouldn't be saying we need to learn Spanish because of all the illegals in this country.

Adept Havelock
07-08-2008, 03:52 PM
Interesting to see you playing up the *spanish language nation* topic today now that you have your own agenda you are trying to advance through fear or whatever means necessary.

ROFL

Brutal, yet hilarious. Nice use of the archives. I award you 2 points and a small plaque.

Sully
07-08-2008, 03:53 PM
2 point takedown,
3 point near-fall,
pin...

jAZ
07-08-2008, 04:20 PM
I noticed Denise disappeared from here pretty quickly.

Radar Chief
07-08-2008, 04:22 PM
This is absolutely the answer to the problem. Do this, and the problem goes away, quickly.

We definitely agree there. :thumb:

Sully
07-08-2008, 04:25 PM
We definitely agree there. :thumb:

You'd be amazed what you, and many conservatives, agree with me on.

patteeu
07-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Check his full quote on the other thread and see if you still disagree on the value of raising your child to be bi-lingual. Oh, and don't ever take Denise's word for what Obama says.

;)

Hell, you can't even take Obama's word for what Obama says.

WilliamTheIrish
07-08-2008, 06:52 PM
Hell, you can't even take Obama's word for what Obama says.

Holy s*** jAZ. First you emasculate Rex, and then yank out D'nice's reproductive organs by way of her nostrils.

You definitely win a cookie today.