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Wile_E_Coyote
04-28-2006, 09:08 AM
Chiefs could use a pass rusher

Sacks of gold often buried deep

By ADAM TEICHER

The Kansas City Star
More on the NFL Draft (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/)Once upon a time, long ago when the Chiefs played good defense, they went to the top of the draft in search of pass rushers.

Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith, back-to-back top-five picks in the late 1980s, terrorized opposing quarterbacks together for several years and remain one-two on the Chiefs’ all-time sack list.

Yet the Chiefs are also proof that pass rushers can be found outside of round one. The undrafted Eric Hicks is fifth on their all-time sacks list and poised to climb another rung next season.

Jared Allen, with 20 sacks in his first two NFL seasons, was a fourth-round choice.

If the Chiefs need more evidence about the availability of pass rushers, they just need to look around the league. Of the 16 players with double-digit sacks last season, three were picked in the third round, one in the fourth, two in the fifth, and one wasn’t drafted.

So even though pass-rush ability appears to be a simple talent to spot, it isn’t necessarily so.

“Pass rushing is all about attitude and heart and effort,” Allen said. “Maybe that’s hard to see on film.”

It’s something for the Chiefs to keep in mind this weekend as they search for pass-rush help in the draft.

They’ve shown an interest in rushers such as North Carolina State’s Manny Lawson, Florida State’s Kamerion Wimbley, Boston College’s Mathias Kiwanuka and Penn State’s Tamba Hali, among others.
It’s a curious phenomenon that sack artists would be available many places in the draft. All teams are looking for pass rushers, even those that have them.

Atlanta, for instance, has Rod Coleman and Patrick Kerney but still went out and traded with the Jets for John Abraham. The move gives the Falcons three premier rushers.

“It’s not just the sacks that impact the game,” Atlanta coach Jim Mora said. “It’s flushing the quarterback out. It’s altering the direction of the throw. It’s making the quarterback step in the pocket and throw when he’s not comfortable. That gives the secondary a chance and linebackers a chance to make a play on the ball.”

With all teams looking for pass rushers, how can so many of them slip so far in the draft? Miami’s Jason Taylor, with 61 1/2 sacks the last five seasons, was a third-round choice. Atlanta’s Coleman, a tackle also in the top 10 in sacks over the last five seasons, was drafted in the fifth round.

Oakland’s Derrick Burgess, last year’s NFL leader with 16 sacks, was picked in 2001 by Philadelphia in the third round and with the 63rd pick.

“A lot of them don’t necessarily have the height, weight and speed that scouts and coaches are looking for,” said Bill Kuharich, the Chiefs’ vice president for player personnel. “The game has evolved to where you’re getting wide-open offense, you’re getting spread formations and you’re getting a situation where it’s a passing down and Derrick Burgess knows it’s a passing down and he doesn’t have to worry about the draw or the power run right at him. He’s got quickness, and though he might lack the size of your typical defensive end, he uses his skills to his advantage.”

Size and the ability to play the complete game are often the biggest differences between a pass rusher chosen in the first round and one still available later.

“Some guys are not as good versus the run as they are versus the pass,” Chiefs coach Herm Edwards said. “You have to understand guys like that, they’re not going to play 50 snaps for you. They’re going to play maybe 25 snaps.”

That’s one reason Allen was available two years ago in the fourth round. He had 17 1/2 sacks as a senior at Idaho State, so he obviously possessed some skills.

But scouts were concerned that he cashed in against inferior Division I-AA competition. At 265 pounds, he also didn’t have the classic size that would suggest he could hold up well against the run.

The Chiefs initially valued Allen as much for his ability as a deep snapper as for his pass rushing.

“I knew my talents were better than a fourth-round pick,” Allen said. “But they have criteria. They have a checklist they go down, a formula they use. I went to a smaller school, so I guess I didn’t fit.”

Allen not only has 20 sacks in two seasons, but he’s been adequate against the run.

“Now people say I would be a first-round pick,” Allen said.

While complimentary of Allen’s contributions, president/general manager Carl Peterson stopped short of saying that. Mindful that Allen is heading into the final season of his contract, Peterson was unwilling to give Allen any ammunition he might later be able to bring to the negotiating table.

He took exception at the notion Allen outplayed the fourth-round contract he signed after being drafted. Allen’s base salary this season is scheduled to be $425,000, peanuts for a pass rusher.

“He has not outplayed his contract,” Peterson said. “We’ll see what happens this year. Consistency is the other part of this business. He’s had two terrific years, but also you’ve got to go back and look at when he got his sacks, who he got them against, how does he play the run and all the rest of it.”

Allen had six sacks in Kansas City wins, five in Chiefs losses.
But he also made several potential game-changing plays by forcing seven fumbles.

“I always look at those guys and say, ‘Who is he playing against and did he get sacks in big games or did he get the sacks when they’re winning by 21 points and every play is a pass?’ ” Edwards said. “That’s a little different to me.”

<HR class=infobox-hr-separator color=#cccccc SIZE=1>
Depth of talent
Top pass rushers are most often found in the first round, but they can also be had with later picks. The 16 pass rushers with double-digit
sacks in 2005 and where they were drafted:

RoundNo.
First 5
Second 4
Third 3
Fourth 1
Fifth 2
Sixth 0
Seventh 0
Undrafted 1

Dunit35
04-28-2006, 09:16 AM
I sure hope Allen can have another good year He's going to cost a little bit of change if he does.

Lzen
04-28-2006, 09:29 AM
I guess this shows that your best bet is to draft a pass rusher in the first 2 rounds. You might get lucky and find a diamond in the rough in the later rounds. But the odds are against you for that. This also illustrates how vitally important good scouting and developement people are for an NFL team.

Lzen
04-28-2006, 09:30 AM
I sure hope Allen can have another good year He's going to cost a little bit of change if he does.

True, but he will be worth it if he continues on his current pace. I wonder how soon we can release Hicks. :hmmm:

ct
04-28-2006, 09:33 AM
I watched some video of the pass rushers they mentioned in this article at: Yahoo Prospect Video & Bio's (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/prospects;_ylt=AtzFfnTuF4uc_SDK2X1D_YxDubYF?rank_type=2)
Somebody posted that link in the DraftPlanet.

So I really like Hali's all-around game. Lawson is a freak man!! And he made plenty of plays away from the pocket as well. Kiwi looked good, but also looks like he can be taken out of plays vs. bigger physical guys. Wimbley did NOT impress me.

So, I've been pimping Hali for awhile, and I'd still love it if we can select him in a trade down. I also wouldn't be dissappointed if we take him at 20, if other guys are off the board.

But I've been really warming to Lawson, and after watching move video segments on him, I really really want him @20.

If we go CB in 1st round, I'd love to get Kiwi in the 2nd, or even in a trade down with our 1st pick. I don't think 20 is kosher for him though.

Wimbley does NOT impress me, did I say that already?

ct
04-28-2006, 09:34 AM
True, but he will be worth it if he continues on his current pace. I wonder how soon we can release Hicks. :hmmm:

Next year, if we select the right guy this year. For now, we still need him.

Crush
04-28-2006, 10:07 AM
It will be a glorious day when Hicks is released.

BigChiefFan
04-28-2006, 10:11 AM
“He has not outplayed his contract,” Peterson said.

Sure he hasn't, Carl.

Lzen
04-28-2006, 10:37 AM
“He has not outplayed his contract,” Peterson said.

Sure he hasn't, Carl.

Would you rather Carl talk him up so that we can overpay for him when his initial contract runs out?

JBucc
04-28-2006, 10:38 AM
“He has not outplayed his contract,” Peterson said.

Sure he hasn't, Carl.I thought that as well. I guess LJ hasn't outplayed his either. But hey that's Carl.

DJJasonp
04-28-2006, 10:42 AM
“He has not outplayed his contract,” Peterson said.

Sure he hasn't, Carl.


Yeah....but McCleon, Barber, Bartee, and Bell all outplayed their contracts.

Nice work Carl.....nothing but praise for the under-achievers....and a nice smack in the face with a golf shoe for the players that actually perform on a consistent basis.

sedated
04-28-2006, 10:44 AM
I'm worried about Lawson

Didn't he play on the same DLine as Mario Williams?

Is this another Peppers/Sims scenerio?

hypersensitiveZO6
04-28-2006, 10:47 AM
I watched some video of the pass rushers they mentioned in this article at: Yahoo Prospect Video & Bio's (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/prospects;_ylt=AtzFfnTuF4uc_SDK2X1D_YxDubYF?rank_type=2)
Somebody posted that link in the DraftPlanet.

So I really like Hali's all-around game. Lawson is a freak man!! And he made plenty of plays away from the pocket as well. Kiwi looked good, but also looks like he can be taken out of plays vs. bigger physical guys. Wimbley did NOT impress me.

So, I've been pimping Hali for awhile, and I'd still love it if we can select him in a trade down. I also wouldn't be dissappointed if we take him at 20, if other guys are off the board.

But I've been really warming to Lawson, and after watching move video segments on him, I really really want him @20.

If we go CB in 1st round, I'd love to get Kiwi in the 2nd, or even in a trade down with our 1st pick. I don't think 20 is kosher for him though.

Wimbley does NOT impress me, did I say that already?

I don't like the way Herm, Carl, and Bill acted when they were asked about Wimbley. They act like they know something we don't know, which scares me. (NEXT RYAN SIMS)

Cave Johnson
04-28-2006, 10:52 AM
So I really like Hali's all-around game. Lawson is a freak man!! And he made plenty of plays away from the pocket as well. Kiwi looked good, but also looks like he can be taken out of plays vs. bigger physical guys. Wimbley did NOT impress me.

Thanks for the link. This further cements my man-crush on Lawson. He seemed to display the same quickness that belies his combine performance. Hali looked solid but not spectacular.

Demonpenz
04-28-2006, 11:06 AM
that kwimaka from boston college scares me. He is giving me mike mamula flashbacks. Bustorama

whoaskew
04-28-2006, 11:33 AM
Top pass rushers are most often found in the first round, but they can also be had with later picks. The 16 pass rushers with double-digit
sacks in 2005 and where they were drafted:

RoundNo.
First 5
Second 4
Third 3
Fourth 1
Fifth 2
Sixth 0
Seventh 0
Undrafted 1



I guess this shows that your best bet is to draft a pass rusher in the first 2 rounds. You might get lucky and find a diamond in the rough in the later rounds. But the odds are against you for that. This also illustrates how vitally important good scouting and developement people are for an NFL team.


Be careful with that assumption. Don't forget that people who are drafted early are typically given more playing time (snaps) which gives them more opportunities for sacks. In other words, a first round sensation may be signed for impact, while a seventh round pick is usually signed for depth or for special teams, if he even makes the roster.

I agree with you on the importance of good scouting and development, but I always wonder how good the guys we already have can be, if they were ever given the chance.

Bob Dole
04-28-2006, 11:34 AM
Bob Dole would like to point out that Hicks is 5th in career sacks only because he's been on the roster for 39 seasons.

ct
04-28-2006, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the link. This further cements my man-crush on Lawson. He seemed to display the same quickness that belies his combine performance. Hali looked solid but not spectacular.

Offer your thanks for KevB. Giving credit where it's due.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3172707#

Lurch
04-28-2006, 11:38 AM
We just got to make sure the pick we make ain't a crippled deer....

BigChiefFan
04-28-2006, 11:43 AM
Would you rather Carl talk him up so that we can overpay for him when his initial contract runs out?
I don't consider Carl saying something so dumb like this to influence the agent in the least. Do you?

ct
04-28-2006, 11:55 AM
Carl will probably select 3 DEs in this draft, just so he can claim they are being brought in to push Jared Allen for his starting spot. That outa save a few bucks.

sedated
04-28-2006, 12:06 PM
Carl will probably select 3 DEs in this draft, just so he can claim they are being brought in to push Jared Allen for his starting spot. That outa save a few bucks.

I would not mind that at all

his cheapness would actually improve the team for once

Tribal Warfare
04-28-2006, 12:07 PM
It's gonna be Lawson or a tradedown for Hali

ct
04-28-2006, 12:11 PM
I would not mind that at all

his cheapness would actually improve the team for once

I would too. It's a shame we don't have a promising young CB and/or S in a contract year, or he might spend all 7 picks on the positions we need.

Of course, if we had a promising young CB and/or S, we'd all feel much better anyway.

CoMoChief
04-28-2006, 12:31 PM
“Now people say I would be a first-round pick,” Allen said.

While complimentary of Allen’s contributions, president/general manager Carl Peterson stopped short of saying that. Mindful that Allen is heading into the final season of his contract, Peterson was unwilling to give Allen any ammunition he might later be able to bring to the negotiating table.

He took exception at the notion Allen outplayed the fourth-round contract he signed after being drafted. Allen’s base salary this season is scheduled to be $425,000, peanuts for a pass rusher.

“He has not outplayed his contract,” Peterson said. “We’ll see what happens this year. Consistency is the other part of this business. He’s had two terrific years, but also you’ve got to go back and look at when he got his sacks, who he got them against, how does he play the run and all the rest of it.”



I'm really surprised that anyone wants to play for Carl Peterson really. Why doesnt Carl just tell him that he sucks? Jared Allen is the best thing that has happened to our Dline since Neil Smith. The guy is a great pass rusher and is getting better at the run. In a couple seasons this guy will have 15+ sacks and will be making the Pro Bowl. Imagine what he could do if he had any Dline help at all.

Jared Allen hasnt outplayed his contract? I dont know many 4th round picks that have done as well as he has in his first two seasons to be honest with ya. Carl's a ****ing douchebag. Carl redicules everything Allen has done for us in the past 2 seasons in that last paragraph. Why doesnt he ****ing tell Eric Hicks that he sucks if anything instead of paying him a shitload of money? Certainly Eric Hicks hasnt played anywhere near the amount hes making. I cant remember anything hes done since the 2000 season.

htismaqe
04-28-2006, 12:40 PM
I'm really surprised that anyone wants to play for Carl Peterson really. Why doesnt Carl just tell him that he sucks? Jared Allen is the best thing that has happened to our Dline since Neil Smith. The guy is a great pass rusher and is getting better at the run. In a couple seasons this guy will have 15+ sacks and will be making the Pro Bowl. Imagine what he could do if he had any Dline help at all.

Jared Allen hasnt outplayed his contract? I dont know many 4th round picks that have done as well as he has in his first two seasons to be honest with ya. Carl's a ****ing douchebag. Carl redicules everything Allen has done for us in the past 2 seasons in that last paragraph. Why doesnt he ****ing tell Eric Hicks that he sucks if anything instead of paying him a shitload of money? Certainly Eric Hicks hasnt played anywhere near the amount hes making. I cant remember anything hes done since the 2000 season.

Yeah, arming his agent with anything and everything to get Allen a top-dollar contract would be the better way to go at this point.

:rolleyes:

ct
04-28-2006, 01:02 PM
Anybody else find it odd that most of the top rated DE pass rushers this year play the LEFT side? Seems like it's typically the other way around.

Mario Williams, Hali, Kiwi, Wimbley all play primarily on the left side, facing typically the weaker OT. Manny Lawson primarily played on the right vs. the LT.

Just find this interesting...

CoMoChief
04-28-2006, 01:07 PM
Yeah, arming his agent with anything and everything to get Allen a top-dollar contract would be the better way to go at this point.

:rolleyes:


Allen is gonna ask for that anyways because Carl and him both know that he did outplay his contract. Allen also knows he's the best Dlineman on the team, and compared to what Hicks, Sims, Dalton, Siavii, and Browning have done Allen is clearly the best that we have. IMO Allen already has enough bargaining power but its another thing to go out into the media and pretty much bad mouth your best Dlineman, which is what Carl did.

Oh yeah,
:rolleyes:

Dunit35
04-28-2006, 01:08 PM
Anybody else find it odd that most of the top rated DE pass rushers this year play the LEFT side? Seems like it's typically the other way around.

Mario Williams, Hali, Kiwi, Wimbley all play primarily on the left side, facing typically the weaker OT. Manny Lawson primarily played on the right vs. the LT.

Just find this interesting...


I'm really falling in love with Lawson at this point. When I first heard about him I thought to myself "I hope we don't draft him, we don't need him because he is too small." But now I am definately leaning toward him or a trade down.

I did watch two Tye Hill videos and he seems like he is a playmaker. I know in earlier posts I said no thanks to Hill, but I'd be ok with him getting picked if other playmakers we looked at are gone. I know he's only 5'9'' but he was knocking a lot of balls down.

ct
04-28-2006, 01:09 PM
Typically, most players know it's just part of the game and don't care much. Only the hotheads get PO'd about it. Don't see Jared Allen as that type anyway.

He'll get paid, and they both know it. It's all good.

CoMoChief
04-28-2006, 01:15 PM
I'm really falling in love with Lawson at this point. When I first heard about him I thought to myself "I hope we don't draft him, we don't need him because he is too small." But now I am definately leaning toward him or a trade down.

I did watch two Tye Hill videos and he seems like he is a playmaker. I know in earlier posts I said no thanks to Hill, but I'd be ok with him getting picked if other playmakers we looked at are gone. I know he's only 5'9'' but he was knocking a lot of balls down.


Hill can jump out of a gym, the guy has ups. I dont know how well he'd do with bigger WR's though. McCleon had that problem (along with every other problem you could think of with a CB), but Tye Hill has speed, and DeAngelo Hall is small too, and he's a badass but I dont think Hill's the player Hall was coming out of college.

sedated
04-28-2006, 01:28 PM
My question still remains - weren't Lawson and Williams on the same DLine?

Haven't we seen what happens when we pick a DLineman that rode another playmaker's coattails into the 1st round?

Lzen
04-28-2006, 01:28 PM
We just got to make sure the pick we make ain't a crippled deer....

A little cross thread humor. Nice. :thumb:

Lzen
04-28-2006, 01:31 PM
Typically, most players know it's just part of the game and don't care much. Only the hotheads get PO's about it. Don't see Jared Allen as that type anyway.

He'll get paid, and they both know it. It's all good.

Exactly. It's all postulating.

BigRock
04-28-2006, 02:39 PM
Exactly. It's all postulating.
Carl's comments might not even be about Allen's contract, or at least not entirely. Surely some of it is about the contract. But before the season last year, the coaches demoted Jared to the second team because they thought he needed a fire lit under him. Part of this could be along those lines, too.

CoMoChief
04-28-2006, 04:50 PM
Carl's comments might not even be about Allen's contract, or at least not entirely. Surely some of it is about the contract. But before the season last year, the coaches demoted Jared to the second team because they thought he needed a fire lit under him. Part of this could be along those lines, too.



The thing that pisses me off about it is that Carl basically called out the only person who's done anything for this dline in the last 2 seasons. I know Carl doesnt wanna say anything to drive his price up but you dont degrade the guy and what he's done by any means. IMO he needs to lite a fire under the following people if anything...

Eric Hicks
Lional Dalton
Ryan Sims
Junior Siavii - Holy shit what a wasted draft pick
Jimmy Wilkerson
Carlos Hall
John Browning
Kendrell Bell
Greg Wesley
William Bartee - ah **** it he just needs to be shot
Keyaron Fox
Jerome Woods

sedated
04-28-2006, 04:59 PM
William Bartee - ah **** it he just needs to be shot
Keyaron Fox
Jerome Woods

:spock:

Tribal Warfare
04-28-2006, 05:35 PM
My question still remains - weren't Lawson and Williams on the same DLine?

Haven't we seen what happens when we pick a DLineman that rode another playmaker's coattails into the 1st round?

They were getting the same amount of attention from the opposition

milkman
04-28-2006, 09:01 PM
The thing that pisses me off about it is that Carl basically called out the only person who's done anything for this dline in the last 2 seasons. I know Carl doesnt wanna say anything to drive his price up but you dont degrade the guy and what he's done by any means. IMO he needs to lite a fire under the following people if anything...

Eric Hicks
Lional Dalton
Ryan Sims
Junior Siavii - Holy shit what a wasted draft pick
Jimmy Wilkerson
Carlos Hall
John Browning
Kendrell Bell
Greg Wesley
William Bartee - ah **** it he just needs to be shot
Keyaron Fox
Jerome Woods

I think that Wilkerson's primary problem is that he is playing out of position.
He has actually aquitted himself fairly well playing DT, but he should be in Hicks' spot.