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Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 06:49 AM
The correct answer is "I don't know and you don't either". But let's argue about it anyway.

jidar
05-08-2006, 07:07 AM
This thread could get ugly.

greg63
05-08-2006, 07:13 AM
I believe there is, as a matter of faith; but I simply don't have the fortitude for debate that you have Skip, and so I concede. :)

CHIEF4EVER
05-08-2006, 07:14 AM
The correct answer is "I don't know and you don't either". But let's argue about it anyway.

Bwana
05-08-2006, 07:26 AM
.

Dr. Facebook Fever
05-08-2006, 07:32 AM
Yes. I've met her.

jidar
05-08-2006, 07:34 AM
Yes. I've met her.

Was she hot?
And you would say that you would hit it?

greg63
05-08-2006, 07:37 AM
Skip, this thread needs a poll.

jidar
05-08-2006, 07:40 AM
This looks like a good place for a Jesus joke.

An angry mob has chased a woman down and are about to stone her to death when out of the mob steps Jesus Christ. Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." at which point a guy in the back of the mob yells out "Awww Jesus, you ALWAYS go first."

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 07:50 AM
Skip, this thread needs a poll.
Done!

Bearcat
05-08-2006, 07:51 AM
Yes. He is Chinese, and his last name is Huang. He has no idea where people got "Christ" from.

jspchief
05-08-2006, 07:55 AM
It's just a lame attempt at getting another 100 post thread for Skip.

Someone needs to tell him he's the only person on this website who gives a shit about that.

greg63
05-08-2006, 07:55 AM
Done!

:thumb:

chagrin
05-08-2006, 07:59 AM
Skip, how exactly do you know the correct answer?

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 07:59 AM
It's just a lame attempt at getting another 100 post thread for Skip.

Someone needs to tell him he's the only person on this website who gives a shit about that.
Well, that too. But my real intent was to parody the other religious thread.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 08:00 AM
Well, that too. But my real intent was to parody the other religious thread.
Oh, yeah, and to pad my post count.

burt
05-08-2006, 08:02 AM
Skip, how exactly do you know the correct answer?

Because Skip went to High School with Jesus......

greg63
05-08-2006, 08:04 AM
Oh, yeah, and to pad my post count.
ROFL
What other real reason is there?

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 08:09 AM
ROFL
What other real reason is there?
:thumb:

Frankie
05-08-2006, 08:48 AM
Is there a God?
Yes. But I don't see him as an old man with long white beard sitting up there and looking down at us, demanding respect and devotion "or else!"

Frankie
05-08-2006, 08:50 AM
Yes. But I don't see him as an old man with long white beard sitting up there and looking down at us, demanding respect and devotion "or else!"
Stevieray's one line venom in ... three...two...one...
:p

greg63
05-08-2006, 09:08 AM
Stevieray's one line venom in ... three...two...one...
:p

What Kindergarten teacher failed to teach you the proper way to count? :p:D

luv
05-08-2006, 09:11 AM
Yes. But I don't see him as an old man with long white beard sitting up there and looking down at us, demanding respect and devotion "or else!"
I think many people confuse his image with that of Father Time.

el borracho
05-08-2006, 09:22 AM
Skip, you need to define what you mean by "a God" before I can answer that question legitimately.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 10:09 AM
Even Einstein believed there had to be a god and was irritated by atheists.

tiptap
05-08-2006, 10:19 AM
Even Einstein believed there had to be a god and was irritated by atheists.

Einstein explicitly stated that his god was the god discussed by the philosopher Spinoza. It is that the world is knoweable, that it does make sense. The universe and god are one in the same. This notion that the universe can be known led to debate with those that argued for Quantum Mechanics and the inherent "uncertainity principle." lThis led to his famous quote that 'god did not play dice with the universe.'

That is quite a different idea of god than most would ascribe to. There is no agent apart from existence and the universe itself.

ChiefsCountry
05-08-2006, 10:22 AM
I believe there is, as a matter of faith; but I simply don't have the fortitude for debate that you have Skip, and so I concede. :)

I agree with greg.

jspchief
05-08-2006, 10:23 AM
Even Einstein believed there had to be a god and was irritated by atheists.Einstein may have been highly intelligent, but I don't think he was any more equipped to know whether god exists or not.

|Zach|
05-08-2006, 10:53 AM
It's just a lame attempt at getting another 100 post thread for Skip.

Someone needs to tell him he's the only person on this website who gives a shit about that.
I had no idea with this obsession until he listed all these facts about members showing their 100 post thread stats.

Couldn't help but feel an overwhelming sense of sadness for someone who would take the time to do that and care about it. Even if it is Skip.

jspchief
05-08-2006, 11:02 AM
I had no idea with this obsession until he listed all these facts about members showing their 100 post thread stats.

Couldn't help but feel an overwhelming sense of sadness for someone who would take the time to do that and care about it. Even if it is Skip.It reminds me of when he got locked onto the average yards per carry stat for RBs. Totally blind to other factors.

Clint in Wichita
05-08-2006, 11:05 AM
I'm still waiting on the one molecule of evidence that proves God, or any deity for that matter, exists.


We don't understand it, it must be the work of God!

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 11:09 AM
I'm still waiting on the one molecule of evidence that proves God, or any deity for that matter, exists.


We don't understand it, it must be the work of God!

Yea that Einstein was a major tard dude. You should have been around back then to straighten him out.

Clint in Wichita
05-08-2006, 11:11 AM
Yea that Einstein was a major tard dude. You should have been around back then to straighten him out.


He's just proof that childhood brainwashing can retain its hold on you, even if you become a genius in adulthood.

Like I'm going to listen to Einstein on any topic other than physics, anyway.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 11:16 AM
It reminds me of when he got locked onto the average yards per carry stat for RBs. Totally blind to other factors.
It worked too, didn't it? Who is our starting RB? With you arguing against LJ all the way.

FAX
05-08-2006, 11:20 AM
He's just proof that childhood brainwashing can retain its hold on you, even if you become a genius in adulthood.

Like I'm going to listen to Einstein on any topic other than physics, anyway.

Your point on childhood brainwashing is well taken, Mr. Clint in Wichita.

However, I believe I am correct in saying that AE's belief in a supreme being came to him later in life. He dedicated much of his life to the questions associated with the creation, design, and function of the physical universe. Ultimately, he came to the conclusion that there were forces in the universe that he (at least) could not explain. The existence of these forces along with the mathematical precision of the universe led him to formulate his opinion on this matter.

FAX

jspchief
05-08-2006, 11:20 AM
It worked too, didn't it? Who is our starting RB? With you arguing against LJ all the way.Yes Skip. You're a genius.

Iowanian
05-08-2006, 11:22 AM
I have always wanted to see a thread on Near Death Experiences, but I don't know if in this atmosphere people would be comfortable enough to share.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 11:24 AM
I have always wanted to see a thread on Near Death Experiences, but I don't know if in this atmosphere people would be comfortable enough to share.

Can't blame them either.

Katipan
05-08-2006, 11:24 AM
I died once, but I didn't see shit.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 11:35 AM
I have yet to talk with anyone who works with people who are dying that is an atheist. A lady I know is a part of what they call a hospess (sp) program where they work with terminal people. I asked her one day if anyone in that program was an atheist and she said a couple were initially when they came in but it didn't take long for them to change there minds. You just see too many things to no beleive after awhile she said. Rather than prying I just left it at that.

jspchief
05-08-2006, 11:40 AM
I have yet to talk with anyone who works with people who are dying that is an atheist. A lady I know is a part of what they call a hospess (sp) program where they work with terminal people. I asked her one day if anyone in that program was an atheist and she said a couple were initially when they came in but it didn't take long for them to change there minds. You just see too many things to no beleive after awhile she said. Rather than prying I just left it at that.I don't doubt that. I'm sure it's rooted in the same thought process that made our ancestors invent gods in the first place. People want an explanation for the miracles they can't explain.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 12:17 PM
I don't doubt that. I'm sure it's rooted in the same thought process that made our ancestors invent gods in the first place. People want an explanation for the miracles they can't explain.


You Atheist?

jspchief
05-08-2006, 12:19 PM
You Atheist?Yes.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 12:28 PM
Yes.

I had a lot of out of body experiences as a kid that seemed to diminish as I got older. I have still had many as an adult. I can't explain it from a scientific standpoint but for me it changed everything. To me it was kind of like a date with your own immortality. That's why I tend to believe in god but am no particular denomination.

Otter
05-08-2006, 12:39 PM
Your point on childhood brainwashing is well taken, Mr. Clint in Wichita.

However, I believe I am correct in saying that AE's belief in a supreme being came to him later in life. He dedicated much of his life to the questions associated with the creation, design, and function of the physical universe. Ultimately, he came to the conclusion that there were forces in the universe that he (at least) could not explain. The existence of these forces along with the mathematical precision of the universe let him to formulate his opinion on this matter.

FAX

We can't even make it out of the Earth's Atmosphere with any reliability let alone create a universes if that makes any sense. There is obviously somthing greater.

The cruel irony is that death seems to be the only way of allowing any insight into the matter and there's no way of telling if that's even a true statement.

Have a nice day.

jidar
05-08-2006, 12:41 PM
Einstien did not believe in God.

Otter
05-08-2006, 12:43 PM
Einstien did not believe in God.

It's not quiet that black and white:

Early in his life Einstein came to refer to God as "cosmic intelligence" which he did not think of in a personal but in a "super-personal" way, for, as he learned from Spinoza, the term "personal" when applied to human beings cannot as such be applied to God. 12 Nevertheless he resorted to the Jewish-Christian way of speaking of God who reveals himself in an ineffable way as truth which is its own certainty. Spinoza held that "truth is its own standard". "Truth is the criterion of itself and of the false, as light reveals itself and darkness," so that "he who has a true idea, simultaneously knows that he has a true idea, and cannot doubt concerning the truth of the thing perceived." 13 Hence once a thing is understood it goes on manifesting itself in the power of its own truth without having to provide for further proof. 14 Thus when God reveals himself to our minds, our understanding of him is carried forward by the intrinsic force of his truth as it continually impinges on our minds and presses for fuller realization within them.

http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflections_volume_1/torrance.htm

Most publications tell the same story about his beliefs in God.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 12:44 PM
Einstien did not believe in God.

You couldn't be more wrong. Nothing pissed him off more than the Atheists trying to say exactly that.

Ebolapox
05-08-2006, 12:44 PM
... I have still had many as an adult. ...

yeah...cocaine is a helluva drug

KChiefs1
05-08-2006, 12:47 PM
Skip, I think someone your age should be voting yes on this just because if there is one you're covered & if there isn't....who cares?

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 12:52 PM
yeah...cocaine is a helluva drug

I don't give a **** what you believe I had the great majority of them between the ages of 6-12.

jidar
05-08-2006, 12:53 PM
You couldn't be more wrong. Nothing pissed him off more than the Atheists trying to say exactly that.


This statement is ridiculous.

You can disagree with me, but how could you possibly know that nothing pissed him off more than that? Give me a break, that's obviously your editorizling even if what you say is true.

However, what you say isn't true so I guess it's not an issue.


“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 43.

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 216.
“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”

Albert Einstein, upon being asked if he believed in God by Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogue, New York, April 24, 1921, published in the New York Times, April 25, 1929; from Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, New York: World Publishing Co., 1971, p. 413; also cited as a telegram to a Jewish newspaper, 1929, Einstein Archive 33-272, from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 204.


Einstien did not believe in God in the way you mean it, all of his references to God are along the lines of his belief in the natural order of things.

Ebolapox
05-08-2006, 12:53 PM
I don't give a **** what you believe I had the great majority of them between the ages of 6-12.

apparently I need to put a smilie in order for your sarcasm meter to go off, eh??

--also....drew barrymore called, she said cocaine isn't JUST for adults :p

jidar
05-08-2006, 12:54 PM
Skip, I think someone your age should be voting yes on this just because if there is one you're covered & if there isn't....who cares?

Occam's razor. Who needs rationality anyway?

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 01:06 PM
This statement is ridiculous.

You can disagree with me, but how could you possibly know that nothing pissed him off more than that? Give me a break, that's obviously your editorizling even if what you say is true.

However, what you say isn't true so I guess it's not an issue.





Einstien did not believe in God in the way you mean it, all of his references to God are along the lines of his belief in the natural order of things.

How do you know how I meant it? He believed there was a god just not one in the traditional form.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 01:08 PM
apparently I need to put a smilie in order for your sarcasm meter to go off, eh??

--also....drew barrymore called, she said cocaine isn't JUST for adults :p


That's cool. Actually I wish I had the time and money to try and work on that part of my life it just isn't going to happen any time soon.

jidar
05-08-2006, 01:20 PM
How do you know how I meant it? He believed there was a god just not one in the traditional form.

He explained the quotes enough to be sure.

There are individual quotes that you could read any way you want, and probably a quote for every viewpoint, but when he took the time to explain it in full context his meaning was pretty unambiguous.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 01:24 PM
He explained the quotes enough to be sure.

There are individual quotes that you could read any way you want, and probably a quote for every viewpoint, but when he took the time to explain it in full context his meaning was pretty unambiguous.

I don't know how we can look around us and not believe there is something that created it.

FAX
05-08-2006, 01:40 PM
He explained the quotes enough to be sure.

There are individual quotes that you could read any way you want, and probably a quote for every viewpoint, but when he took the time to explain it in full context his meaning was pretty unambiguous.

It's hard to separate the notions of a true “agnostic” from those of a non-religious seeker of truth, Mr. jidar. Even more difficult to discuss this topic without digressing into a semantic argument, I know.

Perhaps I need to refresh my memory, but the probability of a Supreme Being was not alien to AE, as I recall the subject. And, not in the least did he discount it. In fact, if memory serves, he discussed matters of “religion” in the sense that Buddhism would come closest to addressing both the "natural" and the "spiritual" states of man, for example. Further, that Buddhism provided a structure in which one could recognize the reality that there are, in existence, things that transcend the capacity of the human mind to comprehend. His view was that other "religions" were, by their very nature, merely reflections of the human mind and, therefore, an incomplete picture of "cosmic" truths.

My interpretation of that approach to the question is that AE believed in a Supreme Being of some kind. Else, why mention it at all?

FAX

FAX
05-08-2006, 01:53 PM
I got interested in this whole AE/God thing, so I resorted to looking some things up. I would have to say that, based on what I see, he provides fodder for both the believer and non-believer. It's interesting. But, a few more quotes to add to Mr. jidar's.

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree ~ Albert Einstein

Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish ~ Albert Einstein

I pity the man who says there isn't a Supreme Being [...] every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe. ~ Albert Einstein

Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. ~Albert Einstein

Science without religion is crippled. Religion without science is blind. ~ Albert Einstein

FAX

ChiefFripp
05-08-2006, 02:00 PM
Think of an ant trying to communicate in detail to another ant what a human being is and how our minds work. Now translate that to humans and beings of higher intelligence. I doubt we can even comprehend what God really is. That said, I do believe there is some sort of creator and I imagine something of much higher intelligence than us would be benevolent.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 03:45 PM
Skip, I think someone your age should be voting yes on this just because if there is one you're covered & if there isn't....who cares?
Exactly right. But I dunno. I keep thinking I'll go back to where I was before I was born when I die.

Clint in Wichita
05-08-2006, 03:59 PM
I have yet to talk with anyone who works with people who are dying that is an atheist. A lady I know is a part of what they call a hospess (sp) program where they work with terminal people. I asked her one day if anyone in that program was an atheist and she said a couple were initially when they came in but it didn't take long for them to change there minds. You just see too many things to no beleive after awhile she said. Rather than prying I just left it at that.


That's called trying to kiss divine arse right before you die.

You could also call it hedging your bets.

burt
05-08-2006, 04:00 PM
This statement is ridiculous. You can disagree with me, but how could you possibly know that nothing pissed him off more than that? Give me a break, that's obviously your editorizling even if what you say is true.However, what you say isn't true so I guess it's not an issue.Einstien did not believe in God in the way you mean it, all of his references to God are along the lines of his belief in the natural order of things.

Now, I am ready.........If I am ever on Jeopardy.....whichi I highly doubt.


"Hi, Im Alex Tribeck, and this is Jeopardy...N00b edition....

Clint in Wichita
05-08-2006, 04:03 PM
I got interested in this whole AE/God thing, so I resorted to looking some things up. I would have to say that, based on what I see, he provides fodder for both the believer and non-believer. It's interesting. But, a few more quotes to add to Mr. jidar's.

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree ~ Albert Einstein

Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish ~ Albert Einstein

I pity the man who says there isn't a Supreme Being [...] everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe. ~ Albert Einstein

Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice. ~Albert Einstein

Science without religion is crippled. Religion without science is blind. ~ Albert Einstein

FAX


Carl Sagan took his non-belief to his grave. Even when he knew he was dying, he never waivered.


As far as the "throwing dice" comment...if God never does things half-assed, then why did he have to drown nearly all of us, because of a design flaw?

You know you're lazy (or stubborn) when you can see the future, and still fail to act accordingly.

BIG_DADDY
05-08-2006, 04:15 PM
This statement is ridiculous.

You can disagree with me, but how could you possibly know that nothing pissed him off more than that? Give me a break, that's obviously your editorizling even if what you say is true.

.

OK what I should have said was it made him angry, better?

In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.

— Prince Hubertus zu Löwenstein, Towards the Further Shore (Victor Gollancz, London, 1968), p. 156; quoted in Jammer, p. 97

Clint in Wichita
05-08-2006, 04:23 PM
I find it amusing when the opinions of "important" people are used in religious debate...like they have a friggin' clue.

No human in history has ever had any idea whether or not gods of any kind are real. Ever. No matter how strong their "faith" is, no matter how deeply religion has touched their soul...


they have absolutely no clue other than their own opinion.

BucEyedPea
05-08-2006, 04:24 PM
...Buddhism would come closest to addressing both the "natural" and the "spiritual" states of man, for example. Further, that Buddhism provided a structure in which one could recognize the reality that there are, in existence, things that transcend the capacity of the human mind to comprehend.

I'd have to agree.
Even Aristotle, who invented a form of logic and the scientific method still used today, used these to come to similar conlusions as AE.

It's kinda like each subject has their own method of proof. This is ontology: the subject of being, existence and reality. Seems to me there are many other things in life that don't require scientific proof but they get "experienced." Until other "experience" a similar thing ( which can't be seen or proven with molecules) they just never "know." It's a spiritual concept.

stevieray
05-08-2006, 06:48 PM
they have absolutely no clue other than their own opinion.

I think the same thing can be said about secularists.

Can you show me how much you love your son?

Nzoner
05-08-2006, 06:54 PM
No human in history has ever had any idea whether or not gods of any kind are real. Ever. No matter how strong their "faith" is, no matter how deeply religion has touched their soul...


they have absolutely no clue other than their own opinion.


Personally,I think it's going to be rather difficult to sell that opinion to a bible believer.

chiefs4me
05-08-2006, 07:55 PM
It's just a lame attempt at getting another 100 post thread for Skip.

Someone needs to tell him he's the only person on this website who gives a shit about that.



did ya hear that skip..js thinks you are lame....:D

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 08:10 PM
did ya hear that skip..js thinks you are lame....:D
Yes, I did hear that. But you know what? Of the 4 or 5 that are worried about it enough to mention it, I have found they have the LEAST amount of 100 reply threads. Jealousy? I think so. Just for fun I checked the two that mentioned it on this thread, JSP and Zach. Well, JSP has 7 and Zach has 17. Compared to my 70. So who entertains the Planeteers more? I have kept them in entertainment three times more than both of them combined. Yeah, if I was bringing up the rear, I would try to downplay it myself. Just like those losers did.

greg63
05-08-2006, 08:27 PM
Well it's not quite at 100 posts yet so here's another post to help get it there.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 08:52 PM
Well it's not quite at 100 posts yet so here's another post to help get it there.
Hey, thanks, buddy. I really like getting them to 100. It used to be REALLY rare. But the guy that is closest to me is GoChiefs with his 37. But he has started nearly twice as many threads as I have. Thanks again, Skip

chiefs4me
05-08-2006, 08:52 PM
Yes, I did hear that. But you know what? Of the 4 or 5 that are worried about it enough to mention it, I have found they have the LEAST amount of 100 reply threads. Jealousy? I think so. Just for fun I checked the two that mentioned it on this thread, JSP and Zach. Well, JSP has 7 and Zach has 17. Compared to my 70. So who entertains the Planeteers more? I have kept them in entertainment three times more than both of them combined. Yeah, if I was bringing up the rear, I would try to downplay it myself. Just like those losers did.




ROFL....so that's why they hate ya....:p

oh yea, here's another for the 100..:D

jspchief
05-08-2006, 08:54 PM
Here's another one for you, you sad old fart.

chiefs4me
05-08-2006, 08:58 PM
bawwwahhhhhhhhhhhh........ROFL

Ari Chi3fs
05-08-2006, 09:02 PM
Hey, thanks, buddy. I really like getting them to 100. It used to be REALLY rare. But the guy that is closest to me is GoChiefs with his 37. But he has started nearly twice as many threads as I have. Thanks again, Skip

Ridiculous.
ROFL

Ari Chi3fs
05-08-2006, 09:03 PM
Yes, I did hear that. But you know what? Of the 4 or 5 that are worried about it enough to mention it, I have found they have the LEAST amount of 100 reply threads. Jealousy? I think so. Just for fun I checked the two that mentioned it on this thread, JSP and Zach. Well, JSP has 7 and Zach has 17. Compared to my 70. So who entertains the Planeteers more? I have kept them in entertainment three times more than both of them combined. Yeah, if I was bringing up the rear, I would try to downplay it myself. Just like those losers did.

I have over 30, beyatch... im coming to get you old man.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 09:04 PM
Here's another one for you, you sad old fart.
:LOL: Thank you sir.

Halfcan
05-08-2006, 09:04 PM
The correct answer is "I don't know and you don't either". But let's argue about it anyway.

I was going to post this once-not a poll, but just to talk about-when I got ready to send it-I hit the Submit Button and my computer completely crashed. No Joke- so needless to say, I didn't push it any further.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 09:06 PM
I have over 30, beyatch... im coming to get you old man.
In your dreams, sonny. Hey!!! I thought you were on my side.

Ari Chi3fs
05-08-2006, 09:07 PM
I was going to post this once-not a poll, but just to talk about-when I got ready to send it-I hit the Submit Button and my computer completely crashed. No Joke- so needless to say, I didn't push it any further.

Well, Skip is right there... and so he really is trying to seek salvation from all his evil doings towards n00bs.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 09:09 PM
I was going to post this once-not a poll, but just to talk about-when I got ready to send it-I hit the Submit Button and my computer completely crashed. No Joke- so needless to say, I didn't push it any further.
Have you sought professional help?

Ari Chi3fs
05-08-2006, 09:11 PM
Wow. 25 voters say NO God?

Wild. The universe works so completely and perfectly, yet so many doubters. Amazing. I have a had a couple experiences in my life, that have eliminated any doubt pertaining to is there a God or not. I say, unequivocally... there is a God... and your ancestors are quite active in your present moments.

Seek, and ye shall find.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 09:20 PM
ROFL....so that's why they hate ya....:p

oh yea, here's another for the 100..:D
Bless you, sister.

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 09:23 PM
Wow. 25 voters say NO God?

Wild. The universe works so completely and perfectly, yet so many doubters. Amazing. I have a had a couple experiences in my life, that have eliminated any doubt pertaining to is there a God or not. I say, unequivocally... there is a God... and your ancestors are quite active in your present moments.

Seek, and ye shall find.
THPtttttttttffffffpppt. Is that the way Archie Bunker said it? Well, that's the way I meant it. I repeat " I don't know and you don't either". Dumfuk

chiefs4me
05-08-2006, 09:31 PM
Bless you, sister.








ROFL

greg63
05-08-2006, 09:34 PM
Hey, thanks, buddy. I really like getting them to 100. It used to be REALLY rare. But the guy that is closest to me is GoChiefs with his 37. But he has started nearly twice as many threads as I have. Thanks again, Skip

:thumb:

Here's another!

Rausch
05-08-2006, 09:46 PM
I don't know if I believe there's a God, but I hope there is...

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 09:51 PM
I don't know if I believe there's a God, but I hope there is...
Believe me, I do too. I'm running out of time.

Rausch
05-08-2006, 09:52 PM
Believe me, I do too. I'm running out of time.

So is everyone...

greg63
05-08-2006, 09:55 PM
So is everyone...


Yep!

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 09:55 PM
So is everyone...
Yeah but I'm a lot closer to the edge than you thirtysomethings.

stevieray
05-08-2006, 09:57 PM
Yeah but I'm a lot closer to the edge than you thirtysomethings.


"everybody loves Jesus on judgement day"

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 10:00 PM
"everybody loves Jesus on judgement day"
Yeah, especially those on death row. There are no atheists on death row.

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:06 PM
Yeah but I'm a lot closer to the edge than you thirtysomethings.

One of my best friend's fathers and my uncle had a brain aneurysm a week ago, same day.

Neither had any type of high blood pressure or cholesterol problems. They both just had a bad line that went split. If either is alive this time next week I'll be a happy man.

The only people who aren't near death are dead...

greg63
05-08-2006, 10:07 PM
Believe me, I do too. I'm running out of time.


I was in the Drs. Office today for a follow-up to my stress test, and learned that it was only a matter of time before I shuffle off; after being told that I am in perfect health. :D

Ari Chi3fs
05-08-2006, 10:07 PM
THPtttttttttffffffpppt. Is that the way Archie Bunker said it? Well, that's the way I meant it. I repeat " I don't know and you don't either". Dumfuk

et tu, Brute?

Well, for those of you who don't believe in the afterlife... good luck.

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:08 PM
Yeah, especially those on death row. There are no atheists on death row.

There are tons of them.

They don't disbelieve in God so much as hope there's no hell...

greg63
05-08-2006, 10:09 PM
One of my best friend's fathers and my uncle had a brain aneurysm a week ago, same day.

Neither had any type of high blood pressure or cholesterol problems. They both just had a bad line that went split. If either is alive this time next week I'll be a happy man.

The only people who aren't near death are dead...


That is the reality of life.

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:09 PM
et tu, Brute?

Anymore frog-speak and God will toss lightning...

Skip Towne
05-08-2006, 10:10 PM
One of my best friend's fathers and my uncle had a brain aneurysm a week ago, same day.

Neither had any type of high blood pressure or cholesterol problems. They both just had a bad line that went split. If either is alive this time next week I'll be a happy man.

The only people who aren't near death are dead...
Thanks for the encouragement. Every morning when I wake up I say "Thank you Lord". One hell of a lot of people have died earlier than 61.

C-Mac
05-08-2006, 10:12 PM
Is there a God?

Man....those rhetorical questions always catch me of guard. :D

Iowanian
05-08-2006, 10:12 PM
I think I'll break it down this way.

We're all in a 101 level college course called life.
I've never seen the professor who is also the dean...but I've got my course materials and study guide and an outline of what I think may be on the final....which we know is scheduled, but not when.

I'm going to go ahead and study like there is going to be a test. Those that don't.....good luck.

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:13 PM
Thanks for the encouragement. Every morning when I wake up I say "Thank you Lord". One hell of a lot of people have died earlier than 61.

George Burns said the key to his old age was the newspaper.


Every morning he'd have someone bring it in to him in bed and he wasn't in the obits page he'd get up...

listopencil
05-08-2006, 10:16 PM
The correct answer is "I don't know and you don't either". But let's argue about it anyway.



How dare you? You know well and good that the only true answer is "You don't know and I don't either." Heresy! Sacrilege! I will now launch a Holy War upon your region.

Pitt Gorilla
05-08-2006, 10:16 PM
I think I'll break it down this way.

We're all in a 101 level college course called life.
I've never seen the professor who is also the dean...but I've got my course materials and study guide and an outline of what I think may be on the final....which we know is scheduled, but not when.

I'm going to go ahead and study like there is going to be a test. Those that don't.....good luck.
Oddly, the guy sitting next to you also has course materials and a study guide, but his differ in significant ways from yours.

Otter
05-08-2006, 10:21 PM
Someone who voted no answer me this: how can you look up at the sky at night and not see that we’re not in control?

We’re a race floating around on a marble at the mercy of forces we have no control over. I’m not saying God is something any of us can understand but how can you go about thinking there isn’t something bigger when, well, we are what we are and we are where we are?

(why is that dumb smiley face in the subject and why can't I get rid of him...Hits???)

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:29 PM
How dare you? You know well and good that the only true answer is "You don't know and I don't either." Heresy! Sacrilege! I will now launch a Holy War upon your region.

Are you french?

tommykat
05-08-2006, 10:32 PM
:hmmm:I believe your poll would say "YES".....continue on. :D

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:36 PM
:hmmm:I believe your poll would say "YES".....continue on. :D

Were you not bested by a ****ing household appliance?

If not, carry on...

C-Mac
05-08-2006, 10:37 PM
Oddly, the guy sitting next to you also has course materials and a study guide, but his differ in significant ways from yours.

Very valid point. One book.....why so many different interpretations?
Even believing "christians" are rolling the dice if they choose to put faith in man.

*“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of sin.
-Matthew 7:21-23

Otter
05-08-2006, 10:39 PM
Since were on the subject, kinda, does anyone have a pic of an earth model where the land is floating around in water and air?

Kinda looks like someone crumbled up a piece of paper and stuck it in an atmosphere. Searched with no luck.

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:42 PM
Very valid point. One book.....why so many different interpretations?
Even believing "christians" are rolling the dice if they choose to put faith in man.

*“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.
-Matthew 7:21-23


And some believe that simply chanting the name of their God, with a pure heart and good intentions, will suffer no worse fate that having to go back down and try life again.

No one knows, that's why religon is built on faith...

el borracho
05-08-2006, 10:44 PM
Someone who voted no answer me this: how can you look up at the sky at night and not see that we’re not in control?

We’re a race floating around on a marble at the mercy of forces we have no control over. I’m not saying God is something any of us can understand but how can you go about thinking there isn’t something bigger when, well, we are what we are and we are where we are?

(why is that dumb smiley face in the subject and why can't I get rid of him...Hits???)
I wouldn't say I know one way or the other if there is a creative entity (or creative entities) responsible for the universe or not. It makes about equal logical sense that there is as that there isn't.
It is more appealing to me to think there is a sentient creator and to think that there is purpose in the universe and that there may be more than just this one earthly life but I have never seen it proved to my satisfaction.
I am, however, convinced that none of the world's religions are entirely correct. To me they seem so obviously man-made and full of ideas that I can't imagine would be of any importance to a being so powerful it could create everything.
Such knowledge, I think, is beyond human understanding. Actually, that is one of the major flaws in religions, IMO, that any human could know and/ or understand the desires of a god. Certainly, it is beyond my little brain's understanding so I just accept that there are things that I have no way of knowing and continue on with my life.

el borracho
05-08-2006, 10:46 PM
P.S. I didn't actually vote in this poll. It was (by design) lacking the obvious "I don't know" answer.

tommykat
05-08-2006, 10:47 PM
Were you not bested by a ****ing household appliance?

If not, carry on...

By a bested?? That was my choice, either pass out or fall....either way I lost. :deevee:

stevieray
05-08-2006, 10:53 PM
I wouldn't say I know one way or the other if there is a creative entity (or creative entities) responsible for the universe or not. It makes about equal logical sense that there is as that there isn't.
It is more appealing to me to think there is a sentient creator and to think that there is purpose in the universe and that there may be more than just this one earthly life but I have never seen it proved to my satisfaction.
I am, however, convinced that none of the world's religions are entirely correct. To me they seem so obviously man-made and full of ideas that I can't imagine would be of any importance to a being so powerful it could create everything.
Such knowledge, I think, is beyond human understanding. Actually, that is one of the major flaws in religions, IMO, that any human could know and/ or understand the desires of a god. Certainly, it is beyond my little brain's understanding so I just accept that there are things that I have no way of knowing and continue on with my life.

If we don't have a purpose for being here, why does solitary confinement drive people to insanity?

Rausch
05-08-2006, 10:55 PM
If we don't have a purpose for being here, why does solitary confinement drive people to insanity?

Again, could be why God decided to start making $3it...

el borracho
05-08-2006, 11:03 PM
If we don't have a purpose for being here, why does solitary confinement drive people to insanity?
Humans are social animals. There are many, many other social animals on this planet.

p.s. I don't deny the possibility of purpose. I just don't think any god's thoughts would be within the limits of human understanding. I would vehemently (but respectfully) argue that no human on earth could know or understand god.

Otter
05-08-2006, 11:04 PM
I wouldn't say I know one way or the other if there is a creative entity (or creative entities) responsible for the universe or not. It makes about equal logical sense that there is as that there isn't.
It is more appealing to me to think there is a sentient creator and to think that there is purpose in the universe and that there may be more than just this one earthly life but I have never seen it proved to my satisfaction.
I am, however, convinced that none of the world's religions are entirely correct. To me they seem so obviously man-made and full of ideas that I can't imagine would be of any importance to a being so powerful it could create everything.
Such knowledge, I think, is beyond human understanding. Actually, that is one of the major flaws in religions, IMO, that any human could know and/ or understand the desires of a god. Certainly, it is beyond my little brain's understanding so I just accept that there are things that I have no way of knowing and continue on with my life.
Excellent summarization.

I’ve gone to Catholic School for twelve years and was raised in that particular religion in fear that will probably never totally leave me. Don’t know if you’re a Sopranos Fan but when the Virgin Mary appeared on the dance stage it pretty much freaked me out. That’s neither here nor there though.

Man made religions have an agenda, I think I’ve grown beyond that be it for better or worse.

The simplest way I can put my views are what I said earlier; man can’t create a life and we can hardly get off this marble.

Someone or something made the universe and anybody who pretends to understand it outside of what they were taught to believe is gambling.

It’s scary but when you look at the big picture I don’t see how it can be interpreted any different.

Thanks for your candor.

stevieray
05-08-2006, 11:28 PM
Humans are social animals. There are many, many other social animals on this planet.

p.s. I don't deny the possibility of purpose. I just don't think any god's thoughts would be within the limits of human understanding. I would vehemently (but respectfully) argue that no human on earth could know or understand god.

Then how did we aquire dominion over them?

so, if it's possible that there is a purpose...what else could it be..? why do we look for redemption or salvation when we do wrong? We can't see or touch love, or hope, or faith, but aren't these things tangible? What is it that makes us want to be better, or keeps us going when we feel like giving up. and what is being better? Kinder? more compassionnate? if there was no purpose for being here, wouldn't you act the opposite as you got older? What is it that makes us choke up when we look at our kids..what is it that makes us give money to a homelss man? if it's the right thing to do, isn't that God? some driving force inside of us?

Think of all the language we use in our daily lives that go back to God. If we remove those words from our vocabulary, and the antonyms also, I think we'd find there isn't much left to shape our families and societies with.

Thanks for your honesty in this thread.

Rausch
05-08-2006, 11:31 PM
Then how did we aquire dominion over them?

so, if it's possible that there is a purpose...what else could it be..? why do we look for redemption or salvation when we do wrong? We can't see or touch love, or hope, or faith, but aren't these things tangible? What is it that makes us want to be better, or keeps us going when we feel like giving up. and what is being better? Kinder? more compassionnate? if there was no purpose for being here, wouldn't you act the opposite as you got older? What is it that makes us choke up when we look at our kids..what is it that makes us give money to a homelss man? if it's the right thing to do, isn't that God? some driving force inside of us?

Sometimes, just hope...

Otter
05-08-2006, 11:39 PM
I'm hitting the rack, tough subject to discuss. Later peeps.

Halfcan
05-08-2006, 11:48 PM
Damm Skip-you hit the post jackpot with this thread-and it only cost you your SOUL! :evil: :fire: Your playing with fire.

Halfcan
05-08-2006, 11:49 PM
I'm hitting the rack, tough subject to discuss. Later peeps.

Don't forget to say your goodnight prayers.

stevieray
05-08-2006, 11:49 PM
Do you follow a particular religion Stevieray? Which one? Not judging by any means, just asking becuase of where I came from and the similarities (sp?).

No.

I'm a Christian with a long way to go. Please don't think I think know the answers to those questions, I ask them because I've asked myself.

Otter
05-08-2006, 11:55 PM
No.

I'm a Christian with a long way to go. Please don't think I think know the answers to those questions, I ask them because I've asked myself.

Never thought you had the answers any more than any of us other smucks. If what I wrote made any sense I'd think your a dumbass if you thought you had answers.

I'm Christian as well with probably a much longer way to go than you.

You're honesty is appreciated.

Now I'm really going to bed.

stevieray
05-08-2006, 11:58 PM
Never thought you had the answers any more than any of us other smucks. If what I wrote made any sense I'd think your a dumbass if you thought you had answers.

I'm Christian as well with probably a much longer way to go than you.

You're honesty is appreciated.

Now I'm really going to bed.

:thumb:

Me too. later.

el borracho
05-09-2006, 12:23 AM
Then how did we aquire dominion over them?

so, if it's possible that there is a purpose...what else could it be..? why do we look for redemption or salvation when we do wrong? We can't see or touch love, or hope, or faith, but aren't these things tangible? What is it that makes us want to be better, or keeps us going when we feel like giving up. and what is being better? Kinder? more compassionnate? if there was no purpose for being here, wouldn't you act the opposite as you got older? What is it that makes us choke up when we look at our kids..what is it that makes us give money to a homelss man? if it's the right thing to do, isn't that God? some driving force inside of us?

Think of all the language we use in our daily lives that go back to God. If we remove those words from our vocabulary, and the antonyms also, I think we'd find there isn't much left to shape our families and societies with.

Thanks for your honesty in this thread.
Dominion over other animals? I would say there are a number of contributing factors including but not limited to the following: better brain function with better memory, higher reasoning and better communication abilities; opposable thumbs which allow for use of multiple tools (from small and/ or delicate to large and/ or cumbersome) in combination with social tendencies innate to humans. In a word, “design.” And that could be intentional or may still be happenstance. After all, as best we can tell humans have not always been the tops. Humans are predated on earth by many other species. Following popular theory, at some point there was only one animal which could live on land and for however long that lasted that animal was supreme.

Again, I wouldn’t pretend to know if there is a purpose or not. As to why humans behave how they behave I think I would earn a Pulitzer Peace Prize if I could write that dissertation. At least part of the credit has to go to socialization. There are rare cases where children have been fed and kept by their parents for years like animals. I don’t recall all of the details but those children had no social skills, no language, certainly no innate desire for salvation or the ineffable. All of those things had to be socialized into them after they were rescued (actually, they never fully regained normal function which scientists ascribe to brain development but that is probably another lengthy discussion).

Muddying the waters, I would say that humans do seem to have an innate sense of self, a sense of awareness. This may be attributable to higher brain function since other intelligent animals (primates and elephants, for example) also display a sense of self. In fact, now that I think of it elephants also display grief and other emotions. But sense of self could also be attributable to the soul (I’m not referring to a soul as a physical thing but rather some innate, ineffable thing to which we ascribe certain aspects and/ or capabilities of human nature. Of course, if I were to *fully* subscribe to the idea of a soul, and I’m not sure I do, I wouldn’t limit that to humans. Again, that is probably a whole other lengthy discussion).

No thanks necessary for the honesty and dialogue. When discussed (not argued) these topics are some of the most important and interesting of all.

Iowanian
05-09-2006, 07:38 AM
Oddly, the guy sitting next to you also has course materials and a study guide, but his differ in significant ways from yours.

I don't think I've ever claimed, or ever will that the Syllabus I'm holding is the only one with reasonable answers.


Personally, I doubt the test is multiple guess, but hopefully more of an essay. You know how everyone approaches those differently? Some will fill them with fluff with long drawn out answers and the grader will have to go through and try to make a mark next to the points...whereas I like to just list 1-5 and get right to the point....hoping I've gotten 5 of the possible 9 answers.

The only thing I really know for sure is what I know. I have no doubts as to the "IS".....but don't claim to have the only map to get there. I know I struggle with many things but am trying each day to do a little better. I'm sure someday, I'll be standing before the man and I can only hope Its graded on a curve that isn't set as high as I fear it might.

Clint in Wichita
05-09-2006, 07:40 AM
I think the same thing can be said about secularists.

Can you show me how much you love your son?


I can't show you, but I can tell you firsthand. Good luck getting one word out of God that doesn't come from a two-millenia-old book written by men.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 07:41 AM
Then how did we aquire dominion over them?

so, if it's possible that there is a purpose...what else could it be..? why do we look for redemption or salvation when we do wrong? We can't see or touch love, or hope, or faith, but aren't these things tangible? What is it that makes us want to be better, or keeps us going when we feel like giving up. and what is being better? Kinder? more compassionnate? if there was no purpose for being here, wouldn't you act the opposite as you got older? What is it that makes us choke up when we look at our kids..what is it that makes us give money to a homelss man? if it's the right thing to do, isn't that God? some driving force inside of us?

Think of all the language we use in our daily lives that go back to God. If we remove those words from our vocabulary, and the antonyms also, I think we'd find there isn't much left to shape our families and societies with.

Thanks for your honesty in this thread.The "how else do you explain X" argument will never be a viable argument to me.

Clint in Wichita
05-09-2006, 07:45 AM
Personally,I think it's going to be rather difficult to sell that opinion to a bible believer.


It is a fact that nobody knows for sure what awaits them after they die.

They can reassure themselves all they want, they can believe whatever they want.

Like it or not, they don't know.

Clint in Wichita
05-09-2006, 07:46 AM
I think I'll break it down this way.

We're all in a 101 level college course called life.
I've never seen the professor who is also the dean...but I've got my course materials and study guide and an outline of what I think may be on the final....which we know is scheduled, but not when.

I'm going to go ahead and study like there is going to be a test. Those that don't.....good luck.


Did your professor murder his last class for failing the "exam"?

Scaga
05-09-2006, 07:48 AM
There must be...
My wife keeps calling him out in bed. :p

Iowanian
05-09-2006, 07:49 AM
I don't know Clint...But I'm pretty sure they didn't get into Graduate School.

Clint in Wichita
05-09-2006, 07:51 AM
I don't know Clint...But I'm pretty sure they didn't get into Graduate School.


Bah, they were all majoring in Philosophy, anyway. A worthless degree.

Iowanian
05-09-2006, 07:53 AM
Good luck with that philosophy.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 07:56 AM
I don't know Clint...But I'm pretty sure they didn't get into Graduate School.The problem is, some people think they're attending Harvard, while others think it's part of an internet pyramid scheme.

I don't think I need a diploma from the World Wide College of Money Transfers from Nigerians Princes.

Iowanian
05-09-2006, 07:57 AM
What do Aethiests do when Family is sick or hurt?

I know if a believers child is in the hospital, or having surgery or whatever they pray.

Clint, jsp...Are you as confident in your beliefs when the chips are down? I'm not preaching....I'm asking. If your kid were in surgery or something...would it cross your mind?

jspchief
05-09-2006, 08:02 AM
What do Aethiests do when Family is sick or hurt?

I know if a believers child is in the hospital, or having surgery or whatever they pray.

Clint, jsp...Are you as confident in your beliefs when the chips are down? I'm not preaching....I'm asking. If your kid were in surgery or something...would it cross your mind?I don't pray. Honestly, to me it would be the equivalent to praying that Santa Claus heals my child for Christmas.

I hope that everything works out, and I worry. Some tragic situation isn't going to magically make me believe in something that I otherwise wouldn't.

FAX
05-09-2006, 08:05 AM
I don't pray. Honestly, to me it would be the equivalent to praying that Santa Claus heals my child for Christmas.

I hope that everything works out, and I worry. Some tragic situation isn't going to magically make me believe in something that I otherwise wouldn't.

A solid answer to a good question. My compliments, Mr. jspchief.

It's interesting though. There are a lot of highly intelligent, insightful, and thoughtful people who derive strength, confidence, and courage through prayer.

I suppose it's possible that they are merely engaging in a form of self-hypnosis. But, I wonder.

FAX

jspchief
05-09-2006, 08:09 AM
A solid answer to a good question. My compliments, Mr. jspchief.

It's interesting though. There are a lot of highly intelligent, insightful, and thoughtful people who derive strength, confidence, and courage through prayer.

I suppose it's possible that they are merely engaging in a form of self-hypnosis. But, I wonder.

FAXI can certainly understand the desire to hope there's more out there. Especially in dire times. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

But I'm not wired that way. The closest I come is hoping I win the Powerball in a week when finances are thin. And to me it's comparable, except I know that a winning Powerball number exists.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 08:15 AM
It is a fact that nobody knows for sure what awaits them after they die. Like it or not, they don't know.

Interesting.....
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." -Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

FAX
05-09-2006, 08:18 AM
I can certainly understand the desire to hope there's more out there. Especially in dire times. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

But I'm not wired that way. The closest I come is hoping I win the Powerball in a week when finances are thin. And to me it's comparable, except I know that a winning Powerball number exists.

I see your point, Mr. jspchief. So, there's nothing that you believe "may" exist that you cannot prove?

I ask in the context of something Mr. Clint In Wichita posted earlier in this thread (or in one of these crazy threads) about Carl Sagan. One of the things Sagan considered was that there was an almost zero chance that life did not exist outside Earth. He approached the question as a mathematical probability and believed this theory to be "true" although he could not prove it.

FAX

jspchief
05-09-2006, 08:22 AM
I see your point, Mr. jspchief. So, there's nothing that you believe "may" exist that you cannot prove?

I ask in the context of something Mr. Clint In Wichita posted earlier in this thread (or in one of these crazy threads) about Carl Sagan. One of the things Sagan considered was that there was an almost zero chance that life did not exist outside Earth. He approached the question as a mathematical probability and believed this theory to be "true" although he could not prove it.

FAXI can't say that I know as fact that god does not exist. I can say as fact that I don't believe he/she/it exists.

Another thing that helps is that even if god does exist, as portrayed by the christian religion, I wouldn't worship him anyway. I don't want to get into a big long god bashing spree. I'll just say he's not worthy of my worship in the christian form. There may be gods from other religions that I would deem worthy, but I don't know enough about other religion to say for sure.

FAX
05-09-2006, 08:34 AM
I can't say that I know as fact that god does not exist. I can say as fact that I don't believe he/she/it exists.

Another thing that helps is that even if god does exist, as portrayed by the christian religion, I wouldn't worship him anyway. I don't want to get into a big long god bashing spree. I'll just say he's not worthy of my worship in the christian form. There may be gods from other religions that I would deem worthy, but I don't know enough about other religion to say for sure.

I completely understand. You're a wise and thoughtful person, Mr. jspchief, that's for sure.

I think it was Socrates who said (and I'm paraphrasing), "Only a tool will talk about sh*t he doesn't have a clue about." I think that one of the things that inhibits these conversations is that people discuss and promote the concept of "God" solely as the Christian "God". There are many Deists whose approach to a Higher Power is quite different from the faith and understanding many Christians rely upon for comfort. I consider this a barrier to, not only useful debate, but also the ability for one's thinking to evolve on the subject.

FAX

Katipan
05-09-2006, 08:41 AM
I don't pray. Honestly, to me it would be the equivalent to praying that Santa Claus heals my child for Christmas.

I hope that everything works out, and I worry. Some tragic situation isn't going to magically make me believe in something that I otherwise wouldn't.

I sorta feel this way, too. Tho I believe in SOMETHING.


I also have a moral problem with only praying for God to act for you. Which is not to say the man that prays at his kid's bed isn't praying ever night at his own too. But those many that pray that they don't lose a job, or that they make rent, or that they need to find a man.

bah.

God has thrown everything he can at me. I've survived things theres just no way I should have. Theres no way I should still be here. I honor the idea of him by cherishing life and not asking him for shit.

Clint in Wichita
05-09-2006, 08:45 AM
Interesting.....
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." -Ecclesiastes 9:5-6


Mere guesswork.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 09:05 AM
If there is no creator then there is obviously far more questions than answers....

-If the very complex DNA, RNA, protein replicating system in the cell was not perfect from the very start, how could life systems even exist?

-Why aren't Scientists today any closer to explaining the amazing complexities of animal instinct than Darwin was?

-Why does human intelligence far surpass that of animals, even the animals such as apes that some have claimed were part of our evolutionary ladder of origin?

-We know what enviroment is needed to make it grow, but why is it that scientists dont know what actually makes the seed grow?

-Is man really the innovators we think we are? Or are we merely the repeaters or copiers? Many times, human inventors only repeat what plants and animals have been doing for thousands of years. Copying from living is parcticed so much that it has been given its own name—bionics.

-Why is it that science can only produce life from existing life, even though they have all the necessary materials?

-Why is it that the chemical makeup of blood that is necessary for life, so exceedingly complex that there is a great deal that is still unknown to scientists today?

"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made even his eternal power ......so that they are inexcusable"
-Romans 1:19

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 09:06 AM
Mere guesswork.

Maybe so, but it is scientifically accurate.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 09:10 AM
If there is no creator then there is obviously far more questions than answers....

-If the very complex DNA, RNA, protein replicating system in the cell was not perfect from the very start, how could life systems even exist?

-Why aren't Scientists today any closer to explaining the amazing complexities of animal instinct than Darwin was?

-Why does human intelligence far surpass that of animals, even the animals such as apes that some have claimed were part of our evolutionary ladder of origin?

-We know what enviroment is needed to make it grow, but why is scientists dont know what actually makes the seed grow?

-Is man really the innovators we think we are? Or are we merely the repeaters or copiers? Many times, human inventors only repeat what plants and animals have been doing for thousands of years. Copying from living is parcticed so much that it has been given its own name—bionics.

-Why is it that science can only produce life from existing life, even though they have all the necessary materials?

-Why is it that the chemical makeup of blood thatis necessary for life, so exceedingly complex that there is a great deal that is still unknown to scientists today?

"For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made even his eternal power ......so that they are inexcusable"
-Romans 1:19I just don't get how the lack of answers to these questions is seen as proof of a creator. Humans have been crediting gods with the unexplained forever. Then science comes up with an explanation, and we move on.

I'd say we don't know the answers to those questions yet. And maybe we'll never have answers to some of those questions. But in the face of the unanswered questions of religion, I think that argument is more than a little hypocritical.

FAX
05-09-2006, 09:12 AM
The one that puzzles me is the primordial soup thing, Mr. C-Mac.

According to evolutionists, life was born of primordial soup. Did all our soup go away? Was primordial soup different from the soup we have now? If not, why aren't there more life forms emerging from our current soup?

I googled this and came up with nothing.

FAX

Iowanian
05-09-2006, 09:15 AM
I sorta feel this way, too. Tho I believe in SOMETHING.


I also have a moral problem with only praying for God to act for you. .

I don't want to delve too deeply into this stuff for 2 reasons. 1. I'm no one's preacher 2. My faith, I consider as mostly a personal matter between Myself, God and my immediate family.

That said....I don't know that most prayerful people only "ask" for stuff.
I know that anytime I strike up a conversation with my creator, it begins with some form of "thanks"....maybe for my family, for the nice day, for my given abilities, for my daughter's smile...whatever.

I also know that I'm far from knowing the answers and far from the ideal Christian.....I can't argue or quote scripture like others, I'm prone to cuss, anger, am mean to people on the internet and am not as willing to forgive as I'm supposed to be.

I do the best I can each day, and get reminded regularly of how much work I still have to do.


In the end, If my belief is wrong, the only thing I'm out is the time I spent trying to be a better person.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 09:19 AM
I do the best I can each day, and get reminded regularly of how much work I still have to do.

OK, what if I live my life exactly like you do, the only thing missing being my faith and worship. Meanwhile, Joe on murderer's row has become a textbook christian, complete with asking for forgiveness.

I go to hell, and the murderer goes to heaven? To be honest, it sounds like the christian god is petty and arrogant, and is more concerned with quantity than quality.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 09:22 AM
I just don't get how the lack of answers to these questions is seen as proof of a creator. Humans have been crediting gods with the unexplained forever. Then science comes up with an explanation, and we move on.

I'd say we don't know the answers to those questions yet. And maybe we'll never have answers to some of those questions. But in the face of the unanswered questions of religion, I think that argument is more than a little hypocritical.

Separate religion for a moment because most are a very poor example of what they claim to represent.
I guess to me, logically using information on what is known, such as the major complexities of life and certain scientific understandings, added with the understanding of the complex physics and mathematical order of everything, it can only lead me in one humbling direction. Simply put, chance and chaos are not applicable to the forming of life as we know it.

Iowanian
05-09-2006, 09:23 AM
I don't have the answer and don't claim to. In all honesty, those are the types of questions I've asked also.

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 09:26 AM
... I've survived things theres just no way I should have. Theres no way I should still be here...
Now, now. Brian's a bit unusual...but he's not dangerous, an axe-murderer or anything.

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 09:28 AM
This statement is ridiculous.

You can disagree with me, but how could you possibly know that nothing pissed him off more than that? Give me a break, that's obviously your editorizling even if what you say is true.


.

OK what I should have said was that it pissed him off and not added the more than that:

In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.

— Prince Hubertus zu Löwenstein, Towards the Further Shore (Victor Gollancz, London, 1968), p. 156; quoted in Jammer, p. 97

The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer.

— Albert Einstein
in Goldman, p. vii

I was barked at by numerous dogs who are earning their food guarding ignorance and superstition for the benefit of those who profit from it. Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional "opium of the people"—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims.

— Einstein to an unidentified adressee, Aug.7, 1941. Einstein Archive, reel 54-927, quoted in Jammer, p. 97

Katipan
05-09-2006, 09:29 AM
Now, now. Brian's a bit unusual...but he's not dangerous, an axe-murderer or anything.

We haven't yet decided if he's fate or karma.

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 09:30 AM
...Simply put, chance and chaos are not applicable to the forming of life as we know it.
That's the thing; forming life, I might be able to buy.....but SUSTAINING life for the tens of thousands of years we have in the face of a hostile and unfriendly environment, THAT'S where chance and chaos would surely have rendered us extinct by now, IMHO.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 09:30 AM
The one that puzzles me is the primordial soup thing, Mr. C-Mac.

According to evolutionists, life was born of primordial soup. Did all our soup go away? Was primordial soup different from the soup we have now? If not, why aren't there more life forms emerging from our current soup?

I googled this and came up with nothing.

FAX
In 1953 Stanley Miller passed an electric spark through an “atmosphere” of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor. This produced some of the many amino acids that exist and that are the building blocks of proteins. However, he got just 4 of the 20 amino acids needed for life to exist. Years later, scientists are still unable to experimentally produce all the 20 necessary amino acids under conditions that could be considered plausible. Whats interesting to note is that even if in their experiement they did came up with the 20 basic acids to the origins of life, who would the scientist represent in this scenario?

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 09:31 AM
We haven't yet decided if he's fate or karma.

Heh. I still ask myself the same question about my wife....after 17 years.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 09:32 AM
I don't have the answer and don't claim to. In all honesty, those are the types of questions I've asked also.

What type of quesions?

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 09:38 AM
OK, what if I live my life exactly like you do, the only thing missing being my faith and worship. Meanwhile, Joe on murderer's row has become a textbook christian, complete with asking for forgiveness.

I go to hell, and the murderer goes to heaven? To be honest, it sounds like the christian god is petty and arrogant, and is more concerned with quantity than quality.

I agree. If you believe god is omnipotent then he created the whole game. It also appears to be nothing more than an egotistical game for gods amusement when you really look at it. That is why I quit believing many things that were written by man and started trying to follow my own heart, the only thing that can unequivocally cannot be denied comes from god.

Iowanian
05-09-2006, 09:50 AM
What type of quesions?

More than I'll ever have time to get into today...but I'll use JSP's post as my basis for 1.

A person who attends church but lives the same as...A Sweet old lady, who lives a life of kindness and generocity but without faith, a guy who outwardly rebuked God his entire life, but otherwise lives well and is a good neighbor, and another man who denies God's existence his entire life, but an hour before a trip to the electric chair for horrible crimes repents and accepts...all die at the same time.

Who is in, who is out..how do we know?

Andoverer
05-09-2006, 09:52 AM
[QUOTE=BIG_DADDY]I agree. If you believe god is omnipotent then he created the whole game. It also appears to be nothing more than an egotistical game for gods amusement when you really look at it.QUOTE]

Well you're sort of on the right track.....

Romans 11:36 says

"For everything comes from God alone. Everything lives by his power and everything is for his glory."

In other words He's God. Yes he makes the rules. Get used to it. It ain't all just about you and me. Lucky for all of us is that he's crazy about us and wants us to be his own, hence the need for Jesus Christ.

FAX
05-09-2006, 09:54 AM
In 1953 Stanley Miller passed an electric spark through an “atmosphere” of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor. This produced some of the many amino acids that exist and that are the building blocks of proteins. However, he got just 4 of the 20 amino acids needed for life to exist. Years later, scientists are still unable to experimentally produce all the 20 necessary amino acids under conditions that could be considered plausible. Whats interesting to note is that even if in their experiement they did came up with the 20 basic acids to the origins of life, who would the scientist represent in this scenario?

Yes, I had read of these experiments, Mr. C-Mac. What's puzzling is this, though.

We have tons of hydrogen, methane, ammonia, and water vapor. Plus we have lots of lightning to provide the energy source. These are the building blocks of life according to evolutionists, no?

So, shouldn't new life forms be created all the time? Are the new life forms shy little buggers and afraid to show their faces? Or, is Mr. Rain Man responsible? Is he spending his weekends crushing the life out of the newly-created life forms for his own selfish, sadistic pleasure?

FAX

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 09:54 AM
OK, what if I live my life exactly like you do, the only thing missing being my faith and worship. Meanwhile, Joe on murderer's row has become a textbook christian, complete with asking for forgiveness.

I go to hell, and the murderer goes to heaven? To be honest, it sounds like the christian god is petty and arrogant, and is more concerned with quantity than quality.

If you have a child that has errored in some way, do you not disipline that child in some manner so that they understand what is the right way to handle it and what it is that you expect of them? What if they do this same mistake 5 more times? But.....when they finally get it and actually changes their behavior, do you not forgive them and feel pleased at their sincere change of heart? In time isn't easy to even almost forget it even happened? Is this quality or quantity? Is it really arrogant to forgive someone who is sincerely sorry? Do you not make mistakes also?

jspchief
05-09-2006, 09:57 AM
If you have a child that has errored in some way, do you not disipline that child in some manner so that they understand what is the right way to handle it and what it is that you expect of them? What if they do this same mistake 5 more times? But.....when they finally get it and actually changes their behavior, do you not forgive them and feel pleased at their sincere change of heart? In time isn't easy to even almost forget it even happened? Is this quality or quantity? Is it really arrogant to forgive someone who is sincerely sorry? Do you not make mistakes also?If one child does something wrong once, but never understands it was wrong, do they deserve a more severe punishment than a child that did something wrong dozens of times but finally regretted doing them in the end?

How is that someone who's only sin was not to believe is banished to hell, while someone who lived an evil life can so easily be forgiven?

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 09:58 AM
Yes, I had read of these experiments, Mr. C-Mac. What's puzzling is this, though.

We have tons of hydrogen, methane, ammonia, and water vapor. Plus we have lots of lightning to provide the energy source. These are the building blocks of life according to evolutionists, no?

So, shouldn't new life forms be created all the time? Are the new life forms shy little buggers and afraid to show their faces? Or, is Mr. Rain Man responsible? Is he spending his weekends crushing the life out of the newly-created life forms for his own selfish, sadistic pleasure?

FAX
Obviously yes, but like mentioned the experiment was a failure. So there is no scientific basis to even expect any "new" life forms appearing.

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 10:02 AM
[QUOTE=BIG_DADDY]I agree. If you believe god is omnipotent then he created the whole game. It also appears to be nothing more than an egotistical game for gods amusement when you really look at it.QUOTE]

Well you're sort of on the right track.....

Romans 11:36 says

"For everything comes from God alone. Everything lives by his power and everything is for his glory."

In other words He's God. Yes he makes the rules. Get used to it. It ain't all just about you and me. Lucky for all of us is that he's crazy about us and wants us to be his own, hence the need for Jesus Christ.

I just don't believe there is a sick little game of technicalities between a heaven and hell scenario awaiting us. I don't know for sure what is there but I give god much more credit than that and follow my heart. If said technicality disqualifies me then so be it.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 10:03 AM
If one child does something wrong once, but never understands it was wrong, do they deserve a more severe punishment than a child that did something wrong dozens of times but finally regretted doing them in the end?

Simply apply this in real life. The key here is truthfulness in sincerity and a person who truly is will make the effort to repair what is possible. I'm not suggesting that a murderer that perhaps has a sincere change of heart should be set free, but I beleive there is room for forgiveness under said conditions.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 10:07 AM
Simply apply this in real life. The key here is truthfulness in sincerity and a person who truly is will make the effort to repair what is possible. I'm not suggesting that a murderer that perhaps has a sincere change of heart should be set free, but I beleive there is room for forgiveness under said conditions.I don't really care what he does with the murderer.

What I find absurd is that someone who doesn't believe in god but lives a "better" life is judged more harshly by him.

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 10:22 AM
I don't really care what he does with the murderer.

What I find absurd is that someone who doesn't believe in god but lives a "better" life is judged more harshly by him.


I totally agree. This is getting scary.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 10:37 AM
I don't really care what he does with the murderer.

What I find absurd is that someone who doesn't believe in god but lives a "better" life is judged more harshly by him.

Again apply this in real life.
You can choose to raise your family with any rules and boundaries that you feel are best for them, keeping in mind that it is the way you desire. What if one of your children disagrees with you, disrupts the rest of family and threatens to disown and leave the family. How would you feel? How would you react? Would you compromise your standards to get them to stay all along knowing the rest of the family is watching you? What if you didnt compromise and they left the family to do things their way. Even if you find out that they are a good law abiding citizen, but they still disown you and the family, how would you feel? Now, what if one day this child knocks on the door admits their faults against you and begs for forgiveness...what is your response? Most would be overjoyed to say the least and welcome them back in the family.
So again lets pretend that there were a creator and he expects respect of his rules and boundaries, should he not also have the same right and feelings as you would with your own family?

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 10:42 AM
...So again lets pretend that there were a creator and he expects respect of his rules and boundaries, should he not also have the same right and feelings as you would with your own family?FTR, I'm a believer, but....

Who's to say what the rules and boundaries for His household are, when they are anything but clear (in the minds of many,) and in some cases contradict each other, or make no sense....except as convenient and manipulative rules to facilitate obediance within the structure of organized religion and wordly churches. In other words, how do we know the Word to be the Word, when it makes even more sense as a contrived tool of control for church officials, who've over the centuries sought to control parishoners?

Just asking the inevitable....:hmmm:

I'm a Christian; but I'm not convinced of the infallibility of the Bible, or church teachings....

jspchief
05-09-2006, 10:48 AM
Again apply this in real life.
You can choose to raise your family with any rules and boundaries that you feel are best for them, keeping in mind that it is the way you desire. What if one of your children disagrees with you, disrupts the rest of family and threatens to disown and leave the family. How would you feel? How would you react? Would you compromise your standards to get them to stay all along knowing the rest of the family is watching you? What if you didnt compromise and they left the family to do things their way. Even if you find out that they are a good law abiding citizen, but they still disown you and the family, how would you feel? Now, what if one day this child knocks on the door admits their faults against you and begs for forgiveness...what is your response? Most would be overjoyed to say the least and welcome them back in the family.
So again lets pretend that there were a creator and he expects respect of his rules and boundaries, should he not also have the same right and feelings as you would with your own family?I don't really think your example addresses the point I'm trying to make.

One child doesn't believe he has a family, so never acknowledges that family, but is otherwise a good person.

Another child is a bad person all his life, but genuinely recognizes his family and it's worth.

As the father of both children, I don't believe the child that was unaware of his family deserves a worse fate than the one that was bad all his life.

In other words, you're claiming god puts more value in worship than goodness. That's either petty or arrogant, and it's not a god that deserves my worship.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 10:53 AM
FTR, I'm a believer, but....

Who's to say what the rules and boundaries for His household are, when they are anything but clear (in the minds of many,) and in some cases contradict each other, or make no sense....except as convenient and manipulative rules to facilitate obediance within the structure of organized religion and wordly churches. In other words, how do we know the Word to be the Word, when it makes even more sense as a contrived tool of control for church officials, who've over the centuries sought to control parishoners?

Just asking the inevitable....:hmmm:

I'm a Christian; but I'm not convinced of the infallibility of the Bible, or church teachings....

Its a totally different subject but I agree with you in that religion has done more bad than good trying to represent the bible and the God of the bible. So thats the first thing I did....discern the difference and make decisions based on the bible, not on man.

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 10:54 AM
In other words, you're claiming god puts more value in worship than goodness. That's either petty or arrogant, and it's not a god that deserves my worship.

That would be arrogance IMO. But to assume that is necessarily true you would also have to assume that the bible is gods words and not mans interpretation of of gods word which is simply not the case. Read Holy Blood Holy Grail sometime and you will not look at the bible the same.

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 10:57 AM
Its a totally different subject but I agree with you in that religion has done more bad than good trying to represent the bible and the God of the bible. So thats the first thing I did....discern the difference and make decisions based on the bible, not on man.And you hold the Bible to be the inspired, inerrent, infallible, and accurate Word of God--though it was written by men, transcribed by men, and has been "reinterpreted" dozens of times???

jspchief
05-09-2006, 10:58 AM
But to assume that is necessarily true you would also have to assume that the bible is gods words and not mans interpretation of of gods word which is simply not the case. Read Holy Blood Holy Grail sometime and you will not look at the bible the same.Which touches on a whole other reason I have for not being religious. There are so many different interpretations of the same words, all claiming they are the correct ones. It's either proof that organized religion is a sham, or it presumes that there are a hell of a lot of people that are wrong and going to hell because they didn't interpret it properly.

Who's to say that the Phelps aren't right?

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 11:00 AM
...Who's to say that the Phelps aren't right?

If the Phelp's God, is The Way....then I suspect most would rather be wrong.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:04 AM
I don't really think your example addresses the point I'm trying to make.

One child doesn't believe he has a family, so never acknowledges that family, but is otherwise a good person.

Another child is a bad person all his life, but genuinely recognizes his family and it's worth.

As the father of both children, I don't believe the child that was unaware of his family deserves a worse fate than the one that was bad all his life.

In other words, you're claiming god puts more value in worship than goodness. That's either petty or arrogant, and it's not a god that deserves my worship.

You skipped the point of this bad person(child) would have to change, be sincerely sorry and show proper respect for those he harmed. I'm not putting more value on worship than goodness, but giving someone reconition for their position with out respect is worthless also. So technically if you were "worshiping" truthfully, you would also be a good person.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:05 AM
Which touches on a whole other reason I have for not being religious. There are so many different interpretations of the same words, all claiming they are the correct ones. It's either proof that organized religion is a sham, or it presumes that there are a hell of a lot of people that are wrong and going to hell because they didn't interpret it properly.

Who's to say that the Phelps aren't right?

The God of bible.....

jspchief
05-09-2006, 11:07 AM
If the Phelp's God, is The Way....then I suspect most would rather be wrong.So does popular opinion determine "god's way"?

I don't think today's christianity aligns very closely with the christianity of biblical times. Why would anyone believe that their year 2000 christianity is more accurate than the the chrisitianity of the times when jesus was actually among mortals?

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:08 AM
So does popular opinion determine "god's way"?

I don't think today's christianity aligns very closely with the christianity of biblical times. Why would anyone believe that their year 2000 christianity is more accurate than the the chrisitianity of the times when jesus was actually among mortals?

BINGO! :clap:

jspchief
05-09-2006, 11:10 AM
You skipped the point of this bad person(child) would have to change, be sincerely sorry and show proper respect for those he harmed. I'm not putting more value on worship than goodness, but giving someone reconition for their position with out respect is worthless also. So technically if you were "worshiping" truthfully, you would also be a good person.Again, you're ignoring my point.

Of course god is putting more value on worship than goodness. Unless you're saying I can go to heaven without ever worshipping god.

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 11:12 AM
So does popular opinion determine "god's way"?

I don't think today's christianity aligns very closely with the christianity of biblical times. Why would anyone believe that their year 2000 christianity is more accurate than the the chrisitianity of the times when jesus was actually among mortals?

I don't think so. JMHO, but I honestly think it's just a heartfelt, sincere, and genuine search for living the right life....


I think there is a difference between Christianity then and now; which is why I don't believe as you have suggested. My take is....you read, study, pray/meditate, and ponder in search of the truth. And not everyone's truth will necessarily agree; but I don't really believe that's a problem. To some, they will say "that's mighty convenient;" however, I also think it makes a lot of sense.

Mr. Kotter
05-09-2006, 11:14 AM
The God of bible.....

In case you missed it the first time....

And you hold the Bible to be the inspired, inerrent, infallible, and accurate Word of God--though it was written by men, transcribed by men, and has been "reinterpreted" dozens of times???

:hmmm:

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 11:14 AM
Which touches on a whole other reason I have for not being religious. There are so many different interpretations of the same words, all claiming they are the correct ones. It's either proof that organized religion is a sham, or it presumes that there are a hell of a lot of people that are wrong and going to hell because they didn't interpret it properly.

Who's to say that the Phelps aren't right?

That's why I am not into organized religion. I look around at all the things that make up our world and believe there has to be a god. Then there is the OBE's I had frequently as a kid which solidified in my own mind that there is definately a good possibility that I am much more than just flesh. At this point I follow my heart and look for answers and refuse to be persuaded by fear. Fear is our biggest enemy. I have said on the Planet many many times before that people who sell fear are some of the worst people there are because fear breaks the human spirit. It makes us quit seeking truth and turns us into pathetic cowards who respond to life and death out of that fear. IMO god did not stick us in a predatory world to become cowards. He put us in this enviroment the follow our heart and minds, the things he gave us and to follow them fearlessly to whatever end and learn form the experience. To me that would appear to be the developement of soul, not the tearing down of the soul. It would also appear to make us more like god because I do not believe god is coward or would want his creations to become one either. JMO I guess I am rambling now. Did I mention I hate people who sell fear? ROFL

Raiderhader
05-09-2006, 11:20 AM
In case you missed it the first time....

And you hold the Bible to be the inspired, inerrent, infallible, and accurate Word of God--though it was written by men, transcribed by men, and has been "reinterpreted" dozens of times???

:hmmm:


In this post-Reformation age we live in, you have the means at your disposal to go and interpret the text for yourself, so why not do that and find out for sure instead of constantly questioning the interpretations already out there?

This isn't the dark ages, if you have questions, you have the ability to go seek the answers.

Calcountry
05-09-2006, 11:20 AM
What is most amazing as I read this thread, is that each and every one of you(as do I) has to deal with this issue in the first place.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:25 AM
Again, you're ignoring my point.

Of course god is putting more value on worship than goodness. Unless you're saying I can go to heaven without ever worshipping god.

Sometimes my communcation skills are lacking but I'm not trying to ignor your point. Maybe this will help...

"You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead". -James 2:24-26

Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. - James 2:17

So in a flip flop manner, I could have all the faith in the world but without acting properly with that faith, it is worthless. In the same manner works without faith, in Gods eyes, is also worthless.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:31 AM
And you hold the Bible to be the inspired, inerrent, infallible, and accurate Word of God--though it was written by men, transcribed by men, and has been "reinterpreted" dozens of times???

Of coarse the writers say that they wrote it as a secretary to God if you will. When understood correctly, as many times as I tried to prove it wrong, I couldnt. But to each there own.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 11:34 AM
Sometimes my communcation skills are lacking but I'm not trying to ignor your point. Maybe this will help...

"You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead". -James 2:24-26

Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. - James 2:17

So in a flip flop manner, I could have all the faith in the world but without acting properly with that faith, it is worthless. In the same manner works without faith, in Gods eyes, is also worthless.OK. There's my problem.

To your god, my goodness (works) are of no value without faith. That's ridiculous to me. Especially if you're telling me that adopting faith late in life erases all the bad deeds you've done.

And it sounds like it's a little unclear what "works" it takes to qualify. According to some teachings, asking for forgiveness is enough, but I'd say that's a little sketchy.

luv
05-09-2006, 11:39 AM
OK. There's my problem.

To your god, my goodness (works) are of no value without faith. That's ridiculous to me. Especially if you're telling me that adopting faith late in life erases all the bad deeds you've done.

And it sounds like it's a little unclear what "works" it takes to qualify. According to some teachings, asking for forgiveness is enough, but I'd say that's a little sketchy.
True forgiveness. Doesn't necessarily erase the past, it just makes you good for the future.

If you truly forgive someone for doing/saying something, meaning you don't ever hold that action against them, then that usually means you accept them for who they are now and go from there.

el borracho
05-09-2006, 11:43 AM
from post 178...So again lets pretend that there were a creator and he expects respect of his rules and boundaries, should he not also have the same right and feelings as you would with your own family?
Ok, I don't mean this to sound like ridicule (as I have said throughout the thread, I don't claim to have all of the answers) but ascribing human emotions to a god is one of the things that actually convince me that religion is man-made. When I see ideas like the above I immediately think of ancient Greek mythology; Zeus has a temper, Hera is a jealous wife, etc.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 11:44 AM
True forgiveness. Doesn't necessarily erase the past, it just makes you good for the future.

If you truly forgive someone for doing/saying something, meaning you don't ever hold that action against them, then that usually means you accept them for who they are now and go from there.Which again, is my problem with the whole system.

It's easy to be genuinely sorry when you are facing eternal damnation. It's not so easy to live a good life, and do it for no other reason than to be a good person.

Yet that good person goes to hell for never having faith?

Katipan
05-09-2006, 11:45 AM
In the same manner works without faith, in Gods eyes, is also worthless.

I could devote my life to charitiable work and it could still be considered worthless?

You can keep your God.

luv
05-09-2006, 11:48 AM
Which again, is my problem with the whole system.

It's easy to be genuinely sorry when you are facing eternal damnation. It's not so easy to live a good life, and do it for no other reason than to be a good person.

Yet that good person goes to hell for never having faith?
As far as I can tell, you're right on the money.

I'm not nearly as religious as I used to be 5-10 years ago. Main difference I see in people doing good:

Christians believe that doing good puts them in a good standing with God, while non-christians do good because it makes them feel better. To me, either way, the person that you're doing good for appreciates it.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:49 AM
OK. There's my problem.

To your god, my goodness (works) are of no value without faith. That's ridiculous to me. Especially if you're telling me that adopting faith late in life erases all the bad deeds you've done.

And it sounds like it's a little unclear what "works" it takes to qualify. According to some teachings, asking for forgiveness is enough, but I'd say that's a little sketchy.

Works is one acting in harmony with what you beleive. Like I have said many times here on the Planet, "Dont tell me your a Christian, show me your a Christian." Adopting a faith without acting on it would not erase anything so obviously asking forgiveness alone wouldnt do it either. The problem here is finding a basis of what the definition of "goodness" is. For example, you have an issue with a person who has perhaps take another persons life even though they are repentent, yet many have no issue with a soldier who takes another persons life. Goodness should not have a double standard.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:52 AM
I could devote my life to charitiable work and it could still be considered worthless?

You can keep your God.

If I gave my life to the charitable work of the KKK, would you view that as valuable?

jspchief
05-09-2006, 11:53 AM
If I gave my life to the charitable work of the KKK, would you view that as valuable?That's an absurd twist on what she's saying.

Katipan
05-09-2006, 11:56 AM
If I gave my life to the charitable work of the KKK, would you view that as valuable?

No. If I saved millions of little babies from not starving from hunger, do I still go to hell?

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:56 AM
As far as I can tell, you're right on the money.

I'm not nearly as religious as I used to be 5-10 years ago. Main difference I see in people doing good:

Christians believe that doing good puts them in a good standing with God, while non-christians do good because it makes them feel better. To me, either way, the person that you're doing good for appreciates it.

Yes, but even though these are all qualities of the God of the bible, dont think for one minute that he approves of the actions of most religions today.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 11:58 AM
No. If I saved millions of little babies from not starving from hunger, do I still go to hell?

First off there is no such place as hell.
Secondly, same question, what if it was the KKK organization that fed millions?

Katipan
05-09-2006, 12:00 PM
*I* would not support them.

What. the. ****. Does that have to do with what I'm saying?

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 12:00 PM
That's an absurd twist on what she's saying.

But its a realistic point.

luv
05-09-2006, 12:01 PM
First off there is no such place as hell.
Secondly, same question, what if it was the KKK organization that fed millions?
After the 1000 year reign, where do our soles spend their eternal damnation?

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 12:01 PM
True forgiveness. Doesn't necessarily erase the past, it just makes you good for the future.

If you truly forgive someone for doing/saying something, meaning you don't ever hold that action against them, then that usually means you accept them for who they are now and go from there.

Agreed!

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:01 PM
Doesn't the KKK claim to do everything in the name of god anyway? What if they're right and you're wrong?

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:02 PM
But its a realistic point.No it isn't. It's a deflection from the real question.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 12:03 PM
After the 1000 year reign, where do our soles spend their eternal damnation?

??

Calcountry
05-09-2006, 12:05 PM
OK. There's my problem.

To your god, my goodness (works) are of no value without faith. That's ridiculous to me. Especially if you're telling me that adopting faith late in life erases all the bad deeds you've done.

And it sounds like it's a little unclear what "works" it takes to qualify. According to some teachings, asking for forgiveness is enough, but I'd say that's a little sketchy.True, but you are not God.

There is a proverb:

There is a way unto man that is right and true, but the end therein is death.

or something like that. I don't have it word for word, but you get the point.

our ways are not Gods ways.

Andoverer
05-09-2006, 12:06 PM
I'm no Biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but if you really want the most "explanatory" book of the bible read the book of Romans in the New Testament. It explains in great depth what God is up to and why Jesus was sent here to be with us and to die for us.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 12:08 PM
No it isn't. It's a deflection from the real question.

Of coarse. :rolleyes:

The standards you expect for yourself would condemn a good act as valueless, as from the KKK. So just as the standards God may expect from man could condemn a good act as valueless.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:08 PM
True, but you are not God.

There is a proverb:

There is a way unto man that is right and true, but the end therein is death.

or something like that. I don't have it word for word, but you get the point.

our ways are not Gods ways.Fair enough. Takes us back to square one. If I ever decided to worship a god, the christian god as I know it is not worthy of my worship.

I'd be more inclined to worship a god from the roman, greek, or norse mythos.

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 12:11 PM
Fair enough. Takes us back to square one. If I ever decided to worship a god, the christian god as I know it is not worthy of my worship.

I'd be more inclined to worship a god from the roman, greek, or norse mythos.

How about honoring god in general without definition?

luv
05-09-2006, 12:12 PM
??
If there is no hell, then what is being spoke of here:

Luke 15:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Revelation 20:13-14 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged everyman according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:15 PM
Of coarse. :rolleyes:

The standards you expect for yourself would condemn a good act as valueless, as from the KKK. So just as the standards God may expect from man could condemn a good act as valueless.If the only way I could save a million babies from starving was through the KKK, I'd be inclined to do it. Especially in light of the fact that the acts of the KKK these days are no more deplorable than some acts that are done in the name of christianity.

There are plenty of ways to do good without it being tied to some evil organization.

You deflected from her original question by adding the caveat of the KKK. So I'll ask it again, and see if you can answer without changing the question...

If all my life I do astoundingly good deeds that align perfectly with what chrisitianity considers good, the only absence being faith, does that have no value?

Katipan
05-09-2006, 12:16 PM
Of coarse. :rolleyes:

The standards you expect for yourself would condemn a good act as valueless, as from the KKK. So just as the standards God may expect from man could condemn a good act as valueless.

Sorry dude. But the KKK helping babies is not valuless to me. Only my choice of supporting their efforts. As I sit here millions of babies are suffering and I'm doing nothing about it. So the KKK choosing to single a few out makes those babies no more or less important to me than any of the other ones.

I realize the resemblance is amazing.

I can create life. I can take it. I can hurt, harm, heal. I can comfort and inspire. I can turn mother ****ing water into wine.

But I'm not God. Apparently, I'm nicer.

C-Mac
05-09-2006, 12:17 PM
If there is no hell, then what is being spoke of here:

Luke 15:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Sorry, I have to go to work but I will respond this evening.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:18 PM
How about honoring god in general without definition?I think that would be my most likely option. A person of faith, but not a christian. But really what's the point if I'm only willing to choose a faith that's convenient to me?

Since I don't believe any of it, it really doesn't matter anyway.

greg63
05-09-2006, 12:19 PM
I don't really think your example addresses the point I'm trying to make.

One child doesn't believe he has a family, so never acknowledges that family, but is otherwise a good person.

Another child is a bad person all his life, but genuinely recognizes his family and it's worth.

As the father of both children, I don't believe the child that was unaware of his family deserves a worse fate than the one that was bad all his life.

In other words, you're claiming god puts more value in worship than goodness. That's either petty or arrogant, and it's not a god that deserves my worship.

I know this is old conversation, but I felt the need to address it, and this response is simply from my own narrow Christian upbringing point of view, so flame away. However, IMHO, God places value in the blood of His son Jesus, which was shed for the redemption of the entire world's sins. All one merely has to do is, out of a contrite heart, ask His forgiveness and the blood sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, in God's eyes, has cleansed us from our past wrong doings; when this occurs then a change in ones attitude towards God and his fellow man changes. Any God that allows for the sacrifice of His own son in order to save my soul from hell is worth my worship, love, devotion and praise.

luv
05-09-2006, 12:20 PM
If the only way I could save a million babies from starving was through the KKK, I'd be inclined to do it. Especially in light of the fact that the acts of the KKK these days are no more deplorable than some acts that are done in the name of christianity.

There are plenty of ways to do good without it being tied to some evil organization.

You deflected from her original question by adding the caveat of the KKK. So I'll ask it again, and see if you can answer without changing the question...

If all my life I do astoundingly good deeds that align perfectly with what chrisitianity considers good, the only absence being faith, does that have no value?
Simply put, no. Although I'm sure others will provide lengthy explanations.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:24 PM
Any God that allows for the sacrifice of His own son in order to save my soul from hell is worth my worship, love, devotion and praise.So why does god want my worship so much that he's willing to ignore my past discretions? So much that in the grand scheme of things, my worship has more value to him than me being a good person?

Why does a god powerful enough to create this world yearn for doting minions?

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 12:24 PM
I think that would be my most likely option. A person of faith, but not a christian. But really what's the point if I'm only willing to choose a faith that's convenient to me?

Since I don't believe any of it, it really doesn't matter anyway.

Because that is the path of real courage and heart IMO. It's not about convenience it's about using what god gave you to establish your own personal relationship with him instead of what other men think you should do. To me organized religion is about nothing more than controlling the masses. I may be were you are at right now had I not had my OBE's at a young age. It's hard to tell being that it started happening at such a young age.

luv
05-09-2006, 12:25 PM
So why does god want my worship so much that he's willing to ignore my past discretions? So much that in the grand scheme of things, my worship has more value to him than me being a good person?

Why does a god powerful enough to create this world yearn for doting minions?
Which would mean more:

Someone who loves you because you forced them to, or someone who loves you because they choose to?

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 12:26 PM
I know this is old conversation, but I felt the need to address it, and this response is simply from my own narrow Christian upbringing point of view, so flame away. However, IMHO, God places value in the blood of His son Jesus, which was shed for the redemption of the entire world's sins. All one merely has to do is, out of a contrite heart, ask His forgiveness and the blood sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, in God's eyes, has cleansed us from our past wrong doings; when this occurs then a change in ones attitude towards God and his fellow man changes. Any God that allows for the sacrifice of His own son in order to save my soul from hell is worth my worship, love, devotion and praise.

Come on god created the game if he is ominpotent.

Calcountry
05-09-2006, 12:28 PM
Sorry dude. But the KKK helping babies is not valuless to me. Only my choice of supporting their efforts. As I sit here millions of babies are suffering and I'm doing nothing about it. So the KKK choosing to single a few out makes those babies no more or less important to me than any of the other ones.

I realize the resemblance is amazing.

I can create life. I can take it. I can hurt, harm, heal. I can comfort and inspire. I can turn mother ****ing water into wine.

But I'm not God. Apparently, I'm nicer.Explain this water into wine process please?

One of these days, Delt is going to be thirsty and too pissed that you ran out of booze.

Raiderhader
05-09-2006, 12:29 PM
I know this is old conversation, but I felt the need to address it, and this response is simply from my own narrow Christian upbringing point of view, so flame away. However, IMHO, God places value in the blood of His son Jesus, which was shed for the redemption of the entire world's sins. All one merely has to do is, out of a contrite heart, ask His forgiveness and the blood sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, in God's eyes, has cleansed us from our past wrong doings; when this occurs then a change in ones attitude towards God and his fellow man changes. Any God that allows for the sacrifice of His own son in order to save my soul from hell is worth my worship, love, devotion and praise.


Yet, He is "petty" for wanting you to simply accept him in return for his sacrafice......

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:31 PM
Which would mean more:

Someone who loves because you forced them to, or someone who loves you because they choose to? Which is god doing? Isn't the threat of hell or eternal damnation basically forcing me to?

But to my point... Why do I care if the ant loves me at all?

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:33 PM
Yet, He is "petty" for wanting you to simply accept him in return for his sacrafice......No. He is petty because he is so enamored with being worshipped.

luv
05-09-2006, 12:34 PM
Which is god doing? Isn't the threat of hell or eternal damnation basically forcing me to?

But to my point... Why do I care if the ant loves me at all?
Did you create the ant?

Okay...I hope you know I'm not trying to push off my beliefs on you. Simply throwing in my two cents. I wonder why the BB has had so many religious threads as of late?

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:36 PM
Did you create the ant?

Okay...I hope you know I'm not trying to push off my beliefs on you. Simply throwing in my two cents. I wonder why the BB has had so many religious threads as of late?No, I didn't create the ant. But if I had, I don't think I'd care if it acknowledged me or not, because an ant is such an insignificant part of my world.

And I don't think anyone is trying to push anything on me ( or at least not to any great extent). I like these types of discussions.

luv
05-09-2006, 12:39 PM
No, I didn't create the ant. But if I had, I don't think I'd care if it acknowledged me or not, because an ant is such an insignificant part of my world.

And I don't think anyone is trying to push anything on me ( or at least not to any great extent). I like these types of discussions.
God considers us his children. He doesn't view us like we view ants. Wouldn't you want your children to love you? Wouldn't you care?

Raiderhader
05-09-2006, 12:40 PM
No. He is petty because he is so enamored with being worshipped.


As is His perogative. When you are an all powerful being who creates your own universe, you can run it the way you see fit.

Can you honestly tell me that you would not desire some appreciation from your own creation? Do you not demand a certain level of respect and appreciation from your children, whom you created? Same principle; you brought them into this world and demand at the very least acknowldgement of that fact. My, aren't we petty.....

Calcountry
05-09-2006, 12:42 PM
Which is god doing? Isn't the threat of hell or eternal damnation basically forcing me to?

But to my point... Why do I care if the ant loves me at all?Because the ant is in your own image?

Do you have Children?

BIG_DADDY
05-09-2006, 12:43 PM
Yet, He is "petty" for wanting you to simply accept him in return for his sacrafice......

Once again he created the game. I think love and worship are two different things as well.

Andoverer
05-09-2006, 12:44 PM
I know this is old conversation, but I felt the need to address it, and this response is simply from my own narrow Christian upbringing point of view, so flame away. However, IMHO, God places value in the blood of His son Jesus, which was shed for the redemption of the entire world's sins. All one merely has to do is, out of a contrite heart, ask His forgiveness and the blood sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, in God's eyes, has cleansed us from our past wrong doings; when this occurs then a change in ones attitude towards God and his fellow man changes. Any God that allows for the sacrifice of His own son in order to save my soul from hell is worth my worship, love, devotion and praise.

Nicely stated

Sully
05-09-2006, 12:44 PM
There are denominations of Christianity that allow for you to explore the way in which you worship, that allow you to question the validity of popular Christian belief, and that allow a lot of the doubt and questioning that springs up when discussing God, the Bible and your faith without condemning you for not having blind faith. I say that because it seems there are those who believe in God, and even believe in a Christian God, but feel turned away by the politics of "organized religion."

fan4ever
05-09-2006, 12:46 PM
If the only way I could save a million babies from starving was through the KKK, I'd be inclined to do it. Especially in light of the fact that the acts of the KKK these days are no more deplorable than some acts that are done in the name of christianity.

There are plenty of ways to do good without it being tied to some evil organization.

You deflected from her original question by adding the caveat of the KKK. So I'll ask it again, and see if you can answer without changing the question...

If all my life I do astoundingly good deeds that align perfectly with what chrisitianity considers good, the only absence being faith, does that have no value?

I have an aethiest friend who makes the same argument, and my response is that what he is doing is like doing your homework and then not turning it in and expecting credit. Jesus said that the only way to his father is through him; if he does not know you (acceptance in who he is) either will his father. I believe Jesus was the son of God, so therefore I believe his word. Good deeds make the world a better place and deserve praise from all of us, but according to what I believe, expecting acceptance to Heaven requires more; faith that Jesus is who he says he is.

Raiderhader
05-09-2006, 12:48 PM
Once again he created the game. I think love and worship are two different things as well.

Yes, he did create the game, just as you set the rules of your household. Your kids can follow them or face the concequences for being disobedient. Same difference.

Love is an emotion. Worship is merely an action showing your love, much like an embrace or kiss. You worship because you love.

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:48 PM
As is His perogative. When you are an all powerful being who creates your own universe, you can run it the way you see fit.

Can you honestly tell me that you would not desire some appreciation from your own creation? Do you not demand a certain level of respect and appreciation from your children, whom you created? Same principle; you brought them into this world and demand at the very least acknowldgement of that fact. My, aren't we petty.....Would I be sad if my children didn't love me? Of course. Would I punish them with eternal damnation? Eh, no. I'd just take my lumps.

You plan on punishing your child if it doesn't love you?

Katipan
05-09-2006, 12:54 PM
How do you demand respect and appreciation from your children?

jspchief
05-09-2006, 12:57 PM
How do you demand respect and appreciation from your children?I'd start with the threat of burning in hell for eternity. It seems to be effective, although I've yet to see SuperNanny or Nanny 911 use it.

Andoverer
05-09-2006, 12:57 PM
How do you demand respect and appreciation from your children?

God did it like this....he sent his only son to die in our place even though we deserved it and he didn't.
I certainly appreciate it.