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View Full Version : Spinoff: Is Allard Baird to blame for the state the Royals are in today?


Bowser
05-08-2006, 10:34 AM
The guy seems passionate about baseball and Kansas City. He has made some pretty good trades, and has made some pretty big turds for trades.

Is it his fault the Royals are where they are? Poll coming.....

Sully
05-08-2006, 10:38 AM
I picked yes and no, although I put more blame on Glass than Baird.

Sure-Oz
05-08-2006, 10:38 AM
Baird should just go back to the scouting part, glass is mostly at fault for tampering with shit.

ChiefsCountry
05-08-2006, 10:42 AM
I voted yes and no. He has made some poor trades, but Glass' pocketbook is the main reason we suck. That combined with we haven't developed a top notch pitcher in our farm system.

FringeNC
05-08-2006, 10:44 AM
Of course. Billy Beane doesn't have tremendous payrolls to work with in Oakland, and does pretty well.

I read recently in a Rob Neyer piece that he viewed a game with Allard last year, and Allard couldn't understand why the phones weren't ringing off the hook for Terrance Long. Neyer makes the point that Terrance Long may have been the worst starting player in the league last year. Allard just doesn't get it. He has tried to embrace modern baseball analysis ("Moneyball"), but in his heart, he is always a scout, and has completely failed as a GM.

Cochise
05-08-2006, 10:50 AM
Blame:

60% - Lack of a salary cap
20% - Baird (free agents, draft, player development)
20% - Glass (tight pursestrings)

Woodrow Call
05-08-2006, 10:56 AM
Glass is to blame for the lack of money invested into the scouting dept and into keeping developed players.

Getting absolutely nothing for Dye and Beltran is all on Baird IMO and has hurt the Royals as much as anything Glass has done.

Also if the new Rob and Rany is correct and Bell is going to have a say in who the new GM is we are probably doomed anyway.

hawkchief
05-08-2006, 11:03 AM
Until there is a salary cap and we can compare apples to apples, I don't place the blame for not being able to field a Championship team on either Glass or Baird.

chiefqueen
05-08-2006, 11:18 AM
What I hear is Dan Glass is meddling into everything and he has absolutely no clue.

StcChief
05-08-2006, 11:19 AM
Ultimately it's Glass failure to compete by comitting $$$ in MLB that doomed them.
Coaches, Players, GM all suffer for his tight a$$ approach

Demonpenz
05-08-2006, 11:21 AM
they should stick to a plan. This team is still old as hell

Fish
05-08-2006, 11:22 AM
I'm pretty sure Slugger shares a little blame......

morphius
05-08-2006, 11:26 AM
Glass was awful when he was part of the commision that threw away K's money, and he hasnt done anything to improve the orginization. He doesn't spend any money on the farm clubs, so the players there don't improve. Then you can't bring them up and expect anything from them.

At least that is my understanding of the situation. Baird hasn't helped matters, we lose our best players, decide to keep Soft Sweeney...

I have a hard time paying any attention to this orgnization, its such a mess. Luckily being a laughed at seems to finally be getting to Glass.

beavis
05-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Glass was awful when he was part of the commision that threw away K's money, and he hasnt done anything to improve the orginization. He doesn't spend any money on the farm clubs, so the players there don't improve. Then you can't bring them up and expect anything from them.

At least that is my understanding of the situation. Baird hasn't helped matters, we lose our best players, decide to keep Soft Sweeney...

I have a hard time paying any attention to this orgnization, its such a mess. Luckily being a laughed at seems to finally be getting to Glass.
Yeah, but where do you get that from? I've yet to see any hard evidence that Glass is really raking in millions off revenue sharing. As soon as someome produces something that says Glass pocketed $30 million last year, then I'll be pissed. But until that happens, I still believe the problem lies with the entire approach they take towards developing players. I like Allard, and he seems like a nice guy, but he's obviously not GM material. At least not in this market.

tk13
05-08-2006, 01:07 PM
Even if he gets fired, really Baird's legacy was not supposed to be with this team. Really, if 3 years down the road, we have a good offense with Huber, Butler, and Gordon in the middle, be able to develop a couple frontline starters out of Greinke, Hernandez, Bautista, Howell, etc... and have a good back end of the pen in Burgos, Sisco, MacDougal maybe... then the job Baird's done looks a lot better.

FringeNC
05-08-2006, 01:08 PM
The small-market, low-revenue thing is a poor excuse. It may be a good excuse for not winning a championship, but to have three straight 100 loss seasons and about the worst farm system in the bigs, how is Baird not responsible for that?

Brock
05-08-2006, 01:11 PM
The small-market, low-revenue thing is a poor excuse. It may be a good excuse for not winning a championship, but to have three straight 100 loss seasons and about the worst farm system in the bigs, how is Baird not responsible for that?

Considering they used to have a farm system that produced some of the biggest names in baseball today, I'd have to say the current management is the worst thing ever to happen to royals baseball. They can't blame the total collapse of their farm system on the lack of a salary cap.

ChiefsCountry
05-08-2006, 01:16 PM
Glass needs to do what the Cardinals owner DeWitt did. Bring in some investors under him. Keep 51% of the team, sell the rest off to get some cash. Our farm system is decent for hitters, we haven't hit on any pitchers which what you need the most see Florida, Houston, Oakland, etc.

tk13
05-08-2006, 01:16 PM
Considering they used to have a farm system that produced some of the biggest names in baseball today, I'd have to say the current management is the worst thing ever to happen to royals baseball. They can't blame the total collapse of their farm system on the lack of a salary cap.
That does require money though. Like this year, we're going to have the #1 pick... if Glass decides he doesn't want to pay Andrew Miller the signing bonus he wants we'll end up taking somebody else. I'm not sure if that's going to happen but we'll see. Signability and money does come into play even in the draft... that's how the Cardinals ended up with someone like JD Drew... and the Angels ended up with Jeff Weaver's little brother. That's not to say we can't find talented players otherwise, some people thought Billy Butler was a signability pick, and that's been great. But money affects every aspect of the game.

kcfanXIII
05-08-2006, 01:23 PM
the complete lack of direction, and inability to develope our own talent is whats hurting this franchise. whoevers fault that happens to be, is who's to blame. i mean, it would take a team to get NEAR .500 to get this town excited and they can't even do that.

FringeNC
05-08-2006, 01:29 PM
Even if he gets fired, really Baird's legacy was not supposed to be with this team. Really, if 3 years down the road, we have a good offense with Huber, Butler, and Gordon in the middle, be able to develop a couple frontline starters out of Greinke, Hernandez, Bautista, Howell, etc... and have a good back end of the pen in Burgos, Sisco, MacDougal maybe... then the job Baird's done looks a lot better.

I do not give credit to Baird for Butler and Gordon. ANY GM would have taken them. We got them because we drafted so high. Our farm system is in shambles.

Huber and Bautista were good pick-ups. Too little, too late.

The seeds of the disaster that is now the Royals were planted when Kauffman put the team into that weird trust until a new owner could be find. Of course, those in charge of running the team didn't want to give up power, so they held out as long as possible. Hunt would have been a far better owner than Glass, but was turned down.

Glass seems more interested in breaking the union than winning games. But we're stuck with him. Everyone had written off the Chiefs under Hunt/Steadman, and they turned it around. Maybe Glass will surprise us and hire someone competent.

tk13
05-08-2006, 01:37 PM
I'm not real sure everyone would've taken Butler. Gordon yes, but still, if they develop into a good team then he's done an okay job. A lot of these guys aren't even at their peak age, but I really fear the two Glasses and Bell will give up on some of these guys way too soon. Not that all of them are gonna turn into players but sometimes it just takes patience for guys to figure it out. Nobody has patience.

Cochise
05-08-2006, 01:41 PM
Everyone had written off the Chiefs under Hunt/Steadman, and they turned it around. Maybe Glass will surprise us and hire someone competent.

You might get strung up for calling Carl competent... :shake:

ChiefsCountry
05-08-2006, 02:15 PM
You might get strung up for calling Carl competent... :shake:

I would take the Royals being like the Chiefs every year.

Ari Chi3fs
05-08-2006, 02:26 PM
I think the Royals would be in a slightly different predicament, if they had in Offseason following 2003 season, signed Pudge Rodriguez instead of letting him go to Tigers... and if they had signed Raul Ibanez instead of Juan Gone.

Also, giving Beltran the cash instead of Sweeney would have been nice, eh?

Bowser
05-08-2006, 03:44 PM
I think the Royals would be in a slightly different predicament, if they had in Offseason following 2003 season, signed Pudge Rodriguez instead of letting him go to Tigers... and if they had signed Raul Ibanez instead of Juan Gone.

Also, giving Beltran the cash instead of Sweeney would have been nice, eh?

Letting Ibanez walk, when he WANTED TO STAY, was a complete pissing down the leg. I still can't believe we let Seattle steal him.

And at the time Sweeney was as good as he had been at the plate his entire career. Personally, I would have preferred to give the money to an up-and-coming 5 tool player in Beltran, but Sweeney was the face of the organization.

Too bad he went and caught injuryitis, pretty much right after his powerball payday.

tk13
05-08-2006, 03:49 PM
We're going to do this until the year 2025. Beltran never in a million years would've signed here.

And that's true about Sweeney. Just goes to show how we can't catch a break. When he was on he was amazing. I read Moneyball a couple months ago, and there was even a bit in there where the A's were playing the Royals and one of the relievers served up a home run to Sweeney, and Billy Beane had a cussing fit and was throwing things. Said he was facing the best right handed hitter in baseball... something like that, and that his stupid reliever thought he could fool him. That's how highly people thought of Sweeney.

Cochise
05-08-2006, 03:51 PM
I think the Royals would be in a slightly different predicament, if they had in Offseason following 2003 season, signed Pudge Rodriguez instead of letting him go to Tigers... and if they had signed Raul Ibanez instead of Juan Gone.

Also, giving Beltran the cash instead of Sweeney would have been nice, eh?

Beltran was not going to stay at any price. How many times does this have to be rehashed here?

morphius
05-08-2006, 08:52 PM
Yeah, but where do you get that from? I've yet to see any hard evidence that Glass is really raking in millions off revenue sharing. As soon as someome produces something that says Glass pocketed $30 million last year, then I'll be pissed. But until that happens, I still believe the problem lies with the entire approach they take towards developing players. I like Allard, and he seems like a nice guy, but he's obviously not GM material. At least not in this market.
I'm not sure about him making millions, but if you are not putting any money in your farm system as far as coaching and the like, what good is having a farm system? You might as well rely on FA's if you don't have coaches to improve the guys, and as we have seen, that costs a lot more.

Sure-Oz
05-08-2006, 10:49 PM
but but but beltran wanted to re-sign.......

yeah we had 100+mill to dish out to him NO F'N Way and giving sweeney the cash at the time seemed right, considering he was our best player and one of the top hitters in baseball then. Dude was hitting over .300 easy and had a 144 rbi campaign, injuries have just killed him. If he could play 150 games a year and be pretty damn healthy he could still be that .300 25hr 100 rbi guy he was.

Sure-Oz
05-08-2006, 10:51 PM
Even if he gets fired, really Baird's legacy was not supposed to be with this team. Really, if 3 years down the road, we have a good offense with Huber, Butler, and Gordon in the middle, be able to develop a couple frontline starters out of Greinke, Hernandez, Bautista, Howell, etc... and have a good back end of the pen in Burgos, Sisco, MacDougal maybe... then the job Baird's done looks a lot better.
Mitch Maier not part of the Royals future?

Hasn't he been pretty damn solid? Lubanski has come on as well lately....I am really excited to see Butler, Lubanski, Huber, and Gordon in the same lineup in KC.

Miles
05-08-2006, 11:01 PM
We're going to do this until the year 2025. Beltran never in a million years would've signed here.

And that's true about Sweeney. Just goes to show how we can't catch a break. When he was on he was amazing. I read Moneyball a couple months ago, and there was even a bit in there where the A's were playing the Royals and one of the relievers served up a home run to Sweeney, and Billy Beane had a cussing fit and was throwing things. Said he was facing the best right handed hitter in baseball... something like that, and that his stupid reliever thought he could fool him. That's how highly people thought of Sweeney.

I defintly remember a decent amount of talk about Sweeney being the best RH hitter in the game after his big year. He contract was also very reasonable for his level of play. Just got unlucky with injuries. It happens.

Also I remember in Moneyball, Beane was really making fun of KC for taking a risky pitcher like Greinke.

tk13
05-08-2006, 11:04 PM
Mitch Maier not part of the Royals future?

Hasn't he been pretty damn solid? Lubanski has come on as well lately....I am really excited to see Butler, Lubanski, Huber, and Gordon in the same lineup in KC.
Well, maybe him too. He was a good hitter in college. As it stands right now technically Lubanski, DeJesus and Butler might be our OF in a couple years. Butler could always end up at DH like Travis Hafner though.

tk13
05-08-2006, 11:06 PM
I defintly remember a decent amount of talk about Sweeney being the best RH hitter in the game after his big year. He contract was also very reasonable for his level of play. Just got unlucky with injuries. It happens.

Also I remember in Moneyball, Beane was really making fun of KC for taking a risky pitcher like Greinke.
It was against their philosophy, but I don't remember any specific criticism of Greinke. He was a good pick. I still think he can be a good player.

Miles
05-08-2006, 11:10 PM
It was against their philosophy, but I don't remember any specific criticism of Greinke. He was a good pick. I still think he can be a good player.

Ah thats what it was. He was making fun of all the bad teams that were taking high school pitchers because of the risk (against his philosophy). More of a critcism of the organizations selection rather than the pick itself. I think he ripped on the Brewers for taking Ben Sheets for the same reason and its obvious how that turned out.

Now that I think of it the only specific player selection that was really critisized was Prince Fielder.

Sure-Oz
05-08-2006, 11:13 PM
According to that book Mark Teahan has awesome plate discipline, but should've never been put in the same breath as Jason Giambi.

tk13
05-08-2006, 11:17 PM
Ah thats what it was. He was making fun of all the bad teams that were taking high school pitchers because of the risk (against his philosophy). More of a critcism of the organizations selection rather than the pick itself. I think he ripped on the Brewers for taking Ben Sheets for the same reason and its obvious how that turned out.

Now that I think of it the only specific player selection that was really critisized was Prince Fielder.
Actually another good one was that the A's themselves took Jeremy Bonderman the year before and Beane had a fit, didn't like the pick, but that's who his scouts liked. Threw a chair right through the wall.

Demonpenz
05-09-2006, 01:26 AM
prince fielder and jesse barfields son

T-post Tom
05-09-2006, 01:27 AM
It's David Blaine's fault.

Demonpenz
05-09-2006, 01:29 AM
i had someone read my mind the other day. "Who is this rich scanlon?"

T-post Tom
05-09-2006, 01:34 AM
i had someone read my mind the other day. "Who is this rich scanlon?"

Bastard child of Brian Shay?

huskerdooz
05-09-2006, 02:11 AM
I do not give credit to Baird for Butler and Gordon. ANY GM would have taken them. We got them because we drafted so high. Our farm system is in shambles.

Huber and Bautista were good pick-ups. Too little, too late.

If we're going to hold him accountable for the bad trades and draft picks, (and well you should), then atleast give him credit for the good trades and draft picks as well.

The seeds of the disaster that is now the Royals were planted when Kauffman put the team into that weird trust until a new owner could be find. Of course, those in charge of running the team didn't want to give up power, so they held out as long as possible.

This is pretty much bull shit, Glass took himself out of the running to buy the team and then out of necessity (there were no other viable offers) re-entered the picture and stepped up and wrote a check for 96 mil for the team when no one else wanted to buy the team under the restrictions that were placed on any ownership group that was interested.

Miles Prentice wasn't or wouldn't have been approved as the general partner of the ownership group he was part of so he can't even be considered.


Hunt would have been a far better owner than Glass, but was turned down.

This is pretty much Bull Shit as well. Hunt may have turned out to be a better owner than Glass but I doubt whether he was really serious about owning the Royals. Lest we forget, Hunt's offer for the Royals at that time was less than 50 mil and if my memory serves me correctly, I believe it was in the neighborhood of 36 mil. The only thing Hunt wanted the Royals for was as an investment. He was gambling that MLB would adopt some sort of revenue sharing plan in which Hunt then would have reaped millions in profit from such a small investment. In fact he was even quoted as saying that he didn't think baseball was a very good investment under the current financial landscape at that time.

Glass seems more interested in breaking the union than winning games. But we're stuck with him. Everyone had written off the Chiefs under Hunt/Steadman, and they turned it around. Maybe Glass will surprise us and hire someone competent.

I dont' think he's as interested in busting the union as fixing baseball so that it can survive long term in cities such as KC, MINN, OAK, CINN, etc.

Woodrow Call
05-09-2006, 10:34 AM
Rumor from royalboard.com

http://royalboard.com/baseball/messages/32436.html

These posted from a guy listening to Bernie Miklasz, who generally knows his stuff when it comes to the Cards:

1) Former Cardinals GM and manager White Herzog to be named special consultant to the Royals to diagnose the problems within the organization. Herzog is good friendsí w/David Glass and still has friends and family in the KC area.

2) Former Cardinals Director of Scouting and former Philliesí GM Lee Thomas may be brought in as Director of Player Personnel or if Allard Baird is fired, as General Manager.

Just what Iím hearing take it for what itís worth (read:rumors)

shakesthecat
05-09-2006, 10:54 AM
Rumor from royalboard.com

http://royalboard.com/baseball/messages/32436.html

These posted from a guy listening to Bernie Miklasz, who generally knows his stuff when it comes to the Cards:

1) Former Cardinals GM and manager White Herzog to be named special consultant to the Royals to diagnose the problems within the organization. Herzog is good friendsí w/David Glass and still has friends and family in the KC area.

2) Former Cardinals Director of Scouting and former Philliesí GM Lee Thomas may be brought in as Director of Player Personnel or if Allard Baird is fired, as General Manager.

Just what Iím hearing take it for what itís worth (read:rumors)



Please let these be BS rumors. :banghead:

Woodrow Call
05-09-2006, 10:57 AM
Please let these be BS rumors. :banghead:

Thats what I am hoping for as well.

Sure-Oz
05-09-2006, 11:38 AM
Whitey Herzog as a consultant is bad??? I think we could use a great baseball mind to help this organization. Bring in former royals to coach as well that have won!