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recxjake
05-15-2006, 10:44 AM
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/

Glad to see the Domestics fighting back!

recxjake
05-15-2006, 10:47 AM
Level Field’s supporters, nearly all of whom have worked for one of the Big 3 or its suppliers, believe it’s up to you to decide “What’s an American car?”

But if you care about your car company’s contribution to our economy, get the facts.

One way to judge degrees of “made in America” is to look at “domestic content” – the percentage of a car’s parts that were produced in the U.S. and Canada. Automakers report this information to the U.S. government each year. Domestic content varies from brand to brand and vehicle to vehicle.

We believe a more reliable way to judge how much an automaker contributes to the U.S. economy is to look at how many jobs it produces here. (See our scorecards.) However, because so many Americans work for parts suppliers (about 2 to 3 times as many as work for the automakers themselves), domestic content can have a big impact on jobs.

For 2004 cars, domestic automakers (DCX’s Chrysler division, Ford and GM) automobiles contained 80 percent domestic content, while Japanese, European and Korean carmakers used 31, 5 and 3 percent domestic content, respectively. (ATPC)

Data for 2005 remains incomplete. We will post new data once all companies have reported. However, a recent Detroit Free Press article found that the average content of GM, Ford and Chrysler were 81, 82 and 75 percent, respectively. Toyota, Honda and Nissan automobiles contained, on average, 49.9, 58.5 and 48 percent domestic content.

Donger
05-15-2006, 10:49 AM
We believe a more reliable way to judge how much an automaker contributes to the U.S. economy is to look at how many jobs it produces here.

Translation: "Buy American, because we like our bloated wages and revolting retirement packages! Who cares if our cars suck!?"

morphius
05-15-2006, 10:54 AM
Now would someone explain to my how Chrystler can be a part of this since it is now pretty much controlled by Daimler, a non US owned company?

recxjake
05-15-2006, 10:56 AM
Now would someone explain to my how Chrystler can be a part of this since it is now pretty much controlled by Daimler, a non US owned company?

it has to do with amount of workers employed in the United States compared to the asians.... and its retirees that are doing this, who were employed in the U.S.

StcChief
05-15-2006, 11:43 AM
Canada[/b]. Automakers report this information to the U.S. government each year. Domestic content varies from brand to brand and vehicle to vehicle.

So why does Canada count as part of the domestic US product eh!. Is it because GM/Ford have factories in Windsor etc.

If so why don't Mexican VW Jetta's count. or any subcontracted part built in Mexico?

recxjake
05-15-2006, 11:49 AM
So why does Canada count as part of the domestic US product eh!. Is it because GM/Ford have factories in Windsor etc.

If so why don't Mexican VW Jetta's count. or any subcontracted part built in Mexico?

Canadian and American salaries/benefits are very similar.... Mexican's are not close at all.... canadian workers even have the union on their side... CAW...

StcChief
05-15-2006, 11:54 AM
Canadian and American salaries/benefits are very similar.... Mexican's are not close at all.... canadian workers even have the union on their side... CAW...

And that has what to do with domestic content of the car?
Why not call it what it is 'American/Canadian workers earned money to make/work on the car'

What about the JIT stuff around Maryville Ohio for Honda...I heard those were close to 90% domestic content due to the local subs.

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 11:57 AM
it has to do with amount of workers employed in the United States compared to the asians.... and its retirees that are doing this, who were employed in the U.S.

ROFL

Talk about propaganda...they'll do anything to sell you an inferior car at an inflated price...

recxjake
05-15-2006, 11:58 AM
And that has what to do with domestic content of the car?
Why not call it what it is 'American/Canadian workers earned money to make/work on the car'

What about the JIT stuff around Maryville Ohio for Honda...I heard those were close to 90% domestic content due to the local subs.

i agree with you, they should seperate the content to only made in the United States... since thats what they are lobbying for.....

however they do make it clear that 8 out of 10 workers auto workers in the US work for the big 3

recxjake
05-15-2006, 11:59 AM
ROFL

Talk about propaganda...they'll do anything to sell you an inferior car at an inflated price...


ahh GM has the lowest prices by far... and the quality is getting much much better

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 12:00 PM
ahh GM has the lowest prices by far... and the quality is getting much much better

Lowest prices compared to what?

Explain to me what I could have gotten for $16995...

UKMike
05-15-2006, 12:03 PM
i agree with you, they should seperate the content to only made in the United States... since thats what they are lobbying for.....

however they do make it clear that 8 out of 10 workers auto workers in the US work for the big 3

If you buy a japanese car you can help a japanese guy out AND you get a quality car. :)

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:06 PM
Lowest prices compared to what?

Explain to me what I could have gotten for $16995...

compared to any other car maker!

17 grand gets you:

G6
Vibe
HHR
Cobalt
Ion
Malibu
Aveo
Vue
Canyon
Colorado
Silverado/Sierra 2wd W/T

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 12:10 PM
compared to any other car maker!

17 grand gets you:

G6
Vibe
HHR
Cobalt
Ion
Malibu
Aveo
Vue
Canyon
Colorado
Silverado/Sierra 2wd W/T

And which one of those cars gets 42 MPG like mine does?

Oh that's right. You've been proven to be an idiot before but you still insist on spamming the board with this BS.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:12 PM
And which one of those cars gets 42 MPG like mine does?

Oh that's right. You've been proven to be an idiot before but you still insist on spamming the board with this BS.


what do you drive that gets 42 mpg?

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 12:22 PM
what do you drive that gets 42 mpg?

Toyota Corolla. I've only mentioned it about 50 times.

But you wouldn't know that because you're not listening to anyone but yourself.

luv
05-15-2006, 12:26 PM
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/

Glad to see the Domestics fighting back!
Do you get paid to do this?

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:27 PM
Do you get paid to do this?

lol, no i saw them on CNN

morphius
05-15-2006, 12:27 PM
Do you get paid to do this?
His father does, so in the long run, yes...

Bob Dole
05-15-2006, 12:27 PM
Bob Dole's high school principle was wrong.

He claimed Bob Dole was destined to be a one-percenter and the report clearly shows 3%.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:28 PM
Toyota Corolla. I've only mentioned it about 50 times.

But you wouldn't know that because you're not listening to anyone but yourself.

Thats funny the toyota website has them getting 32/41... so your 42 is wrong....

luv
05-15-2006, 12:28 PM
His father does, so in the long run, yes...
I see. This just reminds me of the whole God or no God type of thread. Everyone has their opinions. No one is going to change the other one's mind. So what is the point? It's not like it hasn't been "discussed" before.

luv
05-15-2006, 12:29 PM
Thats funny the toyota website has them getting 32/41... so your 42 is wrong....
Have you actually driven one? Or do you believe everything you read on websites?

Bob Dole
05-15-2006, 12:30 PM
Thats funny the toyota website has them getting 32/41... so your 42 is wrong....

Good call. Bob Dole always prefers to go with "on average" figures generated by strangers rather than rely on first-hand, empirical evidence.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:30 PM
Have you actually driven one? Or do you believe everything you read on websites?


its the TOYOTA WEBSITE! if it got better mpg they would be the first one to put it on their website

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:31 PM
Toyota Corolla. I've only mentioned it about 50 times.

But you wouldn't know that because you're not listening to anyone but yourself.

The GM equivilant is the Chevy Cobalt which starts at 13,400 and gets 34 mpg....

luv
05-15-2006, 12:33 PM
American made cars are cheap. They may look nice, but I would love to get a foreign car if I could. I've driven nothing but American made cars. Members of my family drive foreign cars. They've had a lot less problems and much fewer recalls.

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 12:33 PM
Thats funny the toyota website has them getting 32/41... so your 42 is wrong....

I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

I'm DRIVING it and currently getting 41.6 MPG.

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 12:34 PM
The GM equivilant is the Chevy Cobalt which starts at 13,400 and gets 34 mpg....

So you're admitting that GM doesn't have an equivalent...

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:35 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

I'm DRIVING it and currently getting 41.6 MPG.

I think thats great if you do, but why would Toyota not have those figures on their website?

SBK
05-15-2006, 12:35 PM
So you're admitting that GM doesn't have an equivalent...

ROFL

luv
05-15-2006, 12:36 PM
I think thats great if you do, but why would Toyota not have those figures on their website?
Why don't you ask them that?

SBK
05-15-2006, 12:36 PM
I think thats great if you do, but why would Toyota not have those figures on their website?

It's just a guess here, but I would say that Toyota didn't use the car that he is driving for their testing... :)

luv
05-15-2006, 12:37 PM
It's just a guess here, but I would say that Toyota didn't use the car that he is driving for their testing... :)
Yes, there is an astounding difference in 41 and 41.6.

KCTitus
05-15-2006, 12:40 PM
What's the HP of the Corrolla, Parker?

Bob Dole
05-15-2006, 12:42 PM
I think thats great if you do, but why would Toyota not have those figures on their website?

Because they didn't perform their dyno tests on his exact model as it's equipped?

It's called an "estimate" for a reason.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:47 PM
What's the HP of the Corrolla, Parker?

126 h.p.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 12:49 PM
base cobalt is 145.... if GM put in a 126 h.p. engine they would get laughed at, but since toyota did they are great

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 12:49 PM
What's the HP of the Corrolla, Parker?

No clue. Don't even care...

htismaqe
05-15-2006, 12:50 PM
base cobalt is 145.... if GM put in a 126 h.p. engine they would get laughed at, but since toyota did they are great

ROFL

SBK
05-15-2006, 12:54 PM
base cobalt is 145.... if GM put in a 126 h.p. engine they would get laughed at, but since toyota did they are great

If GM put a 1000 hp motor in that car, people would still pick the Corolla.

Pitt Gorilla
05-15-2006, 12:56 PM
If GM put a 1000 hp motor in that car, people would still pick the Corolla.Because they don't approve of paying the guy that puts the left windshield wiper on $75 an hour?

KCChiefsFan88
05-15-2006, 03:51 PM
American cars are heaping piles of trash. Just picked my Chevy Blazer up from the repair shop, after $800 worth of repair. I've had the Blazer for about 7 years now, it barely has 55,000 miles on it and I've already spent easily over $15,000 in repairs.

I'm getting a Honda Pilot later this summer.

morphius
05-15-2006, 04:49 PM
The GM equivilant is the Chevy Cobalt which starts at 13,400 and gets 34 mpg....
We went over this last time as well with the Cobalt vs the Corrola...

Ht has an automatic, cobalt auto only gets 24 city/32 highway, now go back and find me a price of a cobalt with cruise and and auto, and not the base piece of junk that you couldn't probably buy if you wanted to...

StcChief
05-15-2006, 04:52 PM
American cars are heaping piles of trash. Just picked my Chevy Blazer up from the repair shop, after $800 worth of repair. I've had the Blazer for about 7 years now, it barely has 55,000 miles on it and I've already spent easily over $15,000 in repairs.

I'm getting a Honda Pilot later this summer.
Hope you got the extended warantee. even a $50 or more per shot in the shop.

The aggrevation about the reliablity (afraid to take it out of town)... A would have dumped it along time ago.

Neighbors Blazer bought thru a GM Employee.....after 6 months,
two trannies in two years and more BS issues. They dumped it.

Detoxing
05-15-2006, 05:01 PM
$15000 in repairs huh? what the hell did you repair? These threads are getting annoying. Its comparing apples and oranges, and no one seems to understand that. I favor domestics, but i will admit that the asians have it better as far as quality goes. If you want MPG and a car to get you from point A to point B that you never have to worry about, buy foreign. If its performance you are looking for, buy a gas guzzling american V8.

America makes the best V8 (leave the germans out of this, we all know they are gods of all) sports cars and trucks. EVERYONE knows that american V8 sport cars and Trucks are very good quality. If i had to buy a v6, or a 4, i would buy foreign, they are better at making them. Ive put 63,000 miles on my Trans Am. So far, ive had to replace a window motor, big wow, cost me 30 bucks. What do i get in return? An exhilirating ride everytime i drive home for work. Could i get that rush with a civic? Hell no. But, if i wanted to save money and i didnt care about performance/fun, i would surely go the route of corolla/civic/sentra nad all that other stuff.

DomerNKC
05-15-2006, 06:46 PM
ahh GM has the lowest prices by far... and the quality is getting much much betterthe domestics treat the word "quality" just like lucy treats the football in "Peanuts". dangle quality out there, and then pull it back. the easiesat thing to say is "its getting better". the more accurate thing to say is that "we have been building crap for so many years and making a bundle on it, why would we change? oh yeah, because it was a good plan on paper but now we are losing our asses." if you tell yourself that you are getting smarter, but keep on doing and posting stupid shit, it is as big of a lie as gm quality is getting better. your and idiot recxjake.

Donger
05-15-2006, 06:51 PM
This is almost sad. Almost.

beavis
05-15-2006, 06:53 PM
If its performance you are looking for, buy a gas guzzling american V8.
Who cares about performance when you can't keep the damn thing running.

CrazyHorse
05-15-2006, 06:53 PM
I really enjoy these threads when they come up.

For what it's worth, I have spent my life around the garage. I have friends that own a agrage. At any given time, there are more imports in the parking lot for repair than domestic cars.

What do you folks make of that little fact? Just curious.

For the record, most cars fall under the foriegn and domestic category since none of them are made up of parts made solely in one country. Electronics are made in China for the most part.

Ford has one of the most technologically advanced computer systems of all the auto makers.

If you dont believe me, just ask your local mechanic. You know, someone that actually knows something about cars.

Donger
05-15-2006, 06:56 PM
I really enjoy these threads when they come up.

For what it's worth, I have spent my life around the garage. I have friends that own a agrage. At any given time, there are more imports in the parking lot for repair than domestic cars.

What do you folks make of that little fact? Just curious.

The garages charge more for a repair of a foreign car would be my first guess.

beavis
05-15-2006, 06:57 PM
For what it's worth, I have spent my life around the garage. I have friends that own a agrage. At any given time, there are more imports in the parking lot for repair than domestic cars.

What do you folks make of that little fact? Just curious.

I'd bet some real money that more of the foreign cars have 100k+ miles than the domestics.

CrazyHorse
05-15-2006, 06:59 PM
Who cares about performance when you can't keep the damn thing running.

I have been driving domestic cars for 25 years. I have yet to break down on the side of the road.

I have been able to keep it running by putting gasoline in it. A modern automotive maintenance marvel.

CrazyHorse
05-15-2006, 07:03 PM
I'd bet some real money that more of the foreign cars have 100k+ miles than the domestics.


Considering there are more of them in the shop for repair, I must conceed that you are probably right.

What's your point?

100,000 miles is nothing in todays automobiles.

Now if you're talking about 1960s and 70 cars, they didn't go as long as todays cars. But then you dont see many foriegn cars from the 70s on the road at all. Mainly because they were the "bic lighter" of cars. You use them for 100,000 and throw them out.

CrazyHorse
05-15-2006, 07:04 PM
The garages charge more for a repair of a foreign car would be my first guess.

Why would they?

recxjake
05-15-2006, 07:06 PM
the point of this thread was not about which is better..... the point is a group of retired GM, Ford and Chrysler workers are now fighting back against the Foreign competitors who hold lots of advantages.

It benefits America to buy an American made car, even if it's made in Mexico or Canada. I think GM has around 38 plants in the United States alone.

I'm no longer worried about GM going bankrupt. 1st Q earnings were 436 million bucks. Stock price is up 18 percent in a week. Between GM and Ford, GM has a much brighter future.... The new Tahoe's are selling faster then they can make them and thats at 3 dollar gas! The new trucks come out soon along with the complete revitilization of Saturn. The worst for GM is over, they finally figured out that quality is the most important aspect in the car business and if you own a GM product that was built 2005 or newer you should notice the difference.

morphius
05-15-2006, 07:07 PM
America makes the best V8 (leave the germans out of this, we all know they are gods of all) sports cars and trucks. EVERYONE knows that american V8 sport cars and Trucks are very good quality. If i had to buy a v6, or a 4, i would buy foreign, they are better at making them. Ive put 63,000 miles on my Trans Am. So far, ive had to replace a window motor, big wow, cost me 30 bucks. What do i get in return? An exhilirating ride everytime i drive home for work. Could i get that rush with a civic? Hell no. But, if i wanted to save money and i didnt care about performance/fun, i would surely go the route of corolla/civic/sentra nad all that other stuff.

I don't know if I agree with that completely, something that has bothered me about the American made V8 vehicles is that I feel they were underpowered. I mean really, the Nissan Z V6 is on par for 300 HP as the Mustang GT V8. Like I have said before, my Altima has 50 less HP then the V8 mustang and only 30 less then some of the last years of the Camaro and Firebirds V8's. I seem to remember some law that kept a lot of imports under 250HP for years, which really meant the American V8 cars just didn't improve as well as they should have. I have to give Dodge some props for coming out with the Viper, I think without it we would still see a really weak versions of the Vette released year after year.

kctransplant
05-15-2006, 07:09 PM
And which one of those cars gets 42 MPG like mine does?

Oh that's right. You've been proven to be an idiot before but you still insist on spamming the board with this BS.


Not to burst your bubble, but.... Some of us do NOT want an econobox that gets 42MPG. Some of us actually need a full size truck that is actually capable of hauling heavy loads, or towing heavy loads. Foreign made trucks just won't cut it for that. Performance cars? I'll still take a Corvette or Viper over ANYTHING the Japanese make. The best full size car for the price? The Dodge Intrepid, and it even gets close to 30 MPG... Not too bad for a big car. Don't get me wrong, there ARE things that the Japanese to better than we do when it comes to automobiles, especially when it comes to compacts and sub compacts. The big 3 STILL haven't done a very good job there, even after all of these years which I feel is inexcusable. The Japanese also don't have the price advantages that they used to, and the Big 3 HAS closed the quality gap considerably. Fords are still pieces of junk, I'll NEVER own another one of those. Before you go accusing me of being a union guy, know this... I HATE unions!!! UAW employees are some of the most overpayed people on earth!! They get payed $20/hr to do jobs thak monkees can do. How hard is it to tighten the same three bolts over? I've got friends who work at the Claycomo plant, and they do things on a daily basis that would get me, or anybody else who works elsewhere, fired for doing it even once!! I won't even get into sports unions.... All said, I'll have to disagree with you, at least partially.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 07:11 PM
Not to burst your bubble, but.... Some of us do NOT want an econobox that gets 42MPG. Some of us actually need a full size truck that is actually capable of hauling heavy loads, or towing heavy loads. Foreign made trucks just won't cut it for that. Performance cars? I'll still take a Corvette or Viper over ANYTHING the Japanese make. The best full size car for the price? The Dodge Intrepid, and it even gets close to 30 MPG... Not too bad for a big car. Don't get me wrong, there ARE things that the Japanese to better than we do when it comes to automobiles, especially when it comes to compacts and sub compacts. The big 3 STILL haven't done a very good job there, even after all of these years which I feel is inexcusable. The Japanese also don't have the price advantages that they used to, and the Big 3 HAS closed the quality gap considerably. Fords are still pieces of junk, I'll NEVER own another one of those. Before you go accusing me of being a union guy, know this... I HATE unions!!! UAW employees are some of the most overpayed people on earth!! They get payed $20/hr to do jobs thak monkees can do. How hard is it to tighten the same three bolts over? I've got friends who work at the Claycomo plant, and they do things on a daily basis that would get me, or anybody else who works elsewhere, fired for doing it even once!! I won't even get into sports unions.... All said, I'll have to disagree with you, at least partially.

they make a heck of a lot more than 20 bucks an hour

Kerberos
05-15-2006, 07:15 PM
And which one of those cars gets 42 MPG like mine does?

Oh that's right. You've been proven to be an idiot before but you still insist on spamming the board with this BS.


:BS: :BS: :BS:

Thats funny the toyota website has them getting 32/41... so your 42 is wrong....

I've been calling this :BS: for a while now. People that claim they get BETTER than the rated MPG make me F***ing laugh everytime.

Anyone that claims this :BS: can talk till they are blue in the face and I still know it's :BS:

Sad :shake:


.

kctransplant
05-15-2006, 07:17 PM
The garages charge more for a repair of a foreign car would be my first guess.


The fact that they charge more to repair foreign cars would lead one to think that there would actually be fewer of them at the repair shop instead of more of them. The assumption that foreign cars are MUCH more reliable than domestic cars probably lingers from the late 70's and the 80's. Back then domestic cars were truly worthless pieces of crap, literally the worst built since the early days of automobiles. I think that Fords are still junk compared to GM and Chrysler, which is why I'll NEVER own another Ford. Japanese cars really aren't much better than the domestics are any more except for compacts, the Japanses will probably ALWAYS be better at building those.

beavis
05-15-2006, 07:18 PM
:BS: :BS: :BS:



I've been calling this :BS: for a while now. People that claim they get BETTER than the rated MPG make me F***ing laugh everytime.

Anyone that claims this :BS: can talk till they are blue in the face and I still know it's :BS:

Sad :shake:


.
I think you need to use a few more BS smileys to get your point across.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 07:19 PM
:BS: :BS: :BS:



I've been calling this :BS: for a while now. People that claim they get BETTER than the rated MPG make me F***ing laugh everytime.

Anyone that claims this :BS: can talk till they are blue in the face and I still know it's :BS:

Sad :shake:


.


Thank You.....

It's like the Prius..... the sticker says one thing, but the real results are in the mid 30's.... yes good, but not nearly as good as people thought.... it's not worth spending 3 to 5 grand extra on somthing that will save you 100 bucks a year...

kctransplant
05-15-2006, 07:21 PM
Considering there are more of them in the shop for repair, I must conceed that you are probably right.

What's your point?

100,000 miles is nothing in todays automobiles.

Now if you're talking about 1960s and 70 cars, they didn't go as long as todays cars. But then you dont see many foriegn cars from the 70s on the road at all. Mainly because they were the "bic lighter" of cars. You use them for 100,000 and throw them out.

Cars last longer now because fuel injection doesn't dump excessive amounts of fuel into the engine, which would wash out the rings on older cars and kill the engines. Having said that, I'll NEVER give up my 1970 Chevelle SS!!

morphius
05-15-2006, 07:33 PM
:BS: :BS: :BS:



I've been calling this :BS: for a while now. People that claim they get BETTER than the rated MPG make me F***ing laugh everytime.

Anyone that claims this :BS: can talk till they are blue in the face and I still know it's :BS:

Sad :shake:


.
here are some points you are missing, one you are assuming he is driving the most recent model which is what is talked about on the web site, not last years model. Second you are forgetting that the US made Toyota, and I think Honda, redo the way they find MPG because they thought the numbers were too high the last few years and since they just throw it on a dyno and measure the waste output versus actually driving the car in real world conditions to estimate the number doesn't exactly make them accurate, especially if the car is geared to run better at the speed he drives then the speed they test at...

recxjake
05-15-2006, 07:43 PM
here are some points you are missing, one you are assuming he is driving the most recent model which is what is talked about on the web site, not last years model. Second you are forgetting that the US made Toyota, and I think Honda, redo the way they find MPG because they thought the numbers were too high the last few years and since they just throw it on a dyno and measure the waste output versus actually driving the car in real world conditions to estimate the number doesn't exactly make them accurate, especially if the car is geared to run better at the speed he drives then the speed they test at...


they aren't thrown on a dyno, the goverment figures the #"s

Detoxing
05-15-2006, 07:50 PM
I don't know if I agree with that completely, something that has bothered me about the American made V8 vehicles is that I feel they were underpowered. I mean really, the Nissan Z V6 is on par for 300 HP as the Mustang GT V8. Like I have said before, my Altima has 50 less HP then the V8 mustang and only 30 less then some of the last years of the Camaro and Firebirds V8's. I seem to remember some law that kept a lot of imports under 250HP for years, which really meant the American V8 cars just didn't improve as well as they should have. I have to give Dodge some props for coming out with the Viper, I think without it we would still see a really weak versions of the Vette released year after year.


Well, how much torque does the Z have compared to the Mustang GT? The other thing is, that V6 doesnt have nearly the amount of room or potential that the V8's do. Im not knocking the Z, its a great car for sure, but i would still rather have a V8. The big 3 build very good V8's, so whom ever said you cant keep it running, well....that sucks for you, maybe you just dont know how to maintain a car.

I build Custom mustangs for a living, and the guys i work with all drive V8 american Trucks. Why? Because they are the most dependable. I Think a group of custom car fabricators would know what they are talking about. Like i said, 63000 miles on my LS1 V8, not a single problem.

morphius
05-15-2006, 07:51 PM
they aren't thrown on a dyno, the goverment figures the #"s
By measuring the exhaust, not out on the road... Basically a dyno type of setup.

morphius
05-15-2006, 07:59 PM
Well, how much torque does the Z have compared to the Mustang GT? The other thing is, that V6 doesnt have nearly the amount of room or potential that the V8's do. Im not knocking the Z, its a great car for sure, but i would still rather have a V8. The big 3 build very good V8's, so whom ever said you cant keep it running, well....that sucks for you, maybe you just dont know how to maintain a car.

I build Custom mustangs for a living, and the guys i work with all drive V8 american Trucks. Why? Because they are the most dependable. I Think a group of custom car fabricators would know what they are talking about. Like i said, 63000 miles on my LS1 V8, not a single problem.
Notice I haven't mentioned anything abbout trucks, because the Toyo and Nissan's just don't have the years invested into it yet. Though I have heard a lot of bitching about American made trucks from their owners as well, and my Uncle who is die hard Chevy truck guy had to pull the lemon law card on one of those.

Now, if you are going to fix up a HP car, you almost have to go american because they put them out there so weak that there are tons of things you can do to improve performance and handeling. But taking something off the lot I would have to think that some of the Japanese vehicles probably handle better and are better tuned.

SNR
05-15-2006, 08:21 PM
I own a foreign car because they're NICER than American cars. I love the interior of my VW Passat, and it's fun and easy to drive. Gets good mileage, and is extremely reliable.

Sure, it was more expensive (sticker price was 23,000 and I got a good deal on it for 18K from a guy who owned it previously), but if that's the price of ultimate driving satisfaction these days, I'll take it

CrazyHorse
05-15-2006, 08:22 PM
HERE is the point YOU are missing.

HE said in another thread that the car was RATED UNDER the MPG he is claiming.

I have thrown the :BS: flag up on every one of these claims that I hear on a daily basis from people EVERYWHERE as this has got to be one of the things that make me laugh EVERYTIME I hear it.

Myself, My Father, My Grandfather and more than half of dozen of my best friends have ALL driven new vehicles at one time or another and NONE of us has EVER gotton BETTER milage than what was rated on the sticker. EVER!

I may have come close a few time in PERFECT driving conditions (20MPH tail winds) to get within 2-3 MPG UNDER the sticker claim.

He might very well get BETTER than what the car is rated but I seriously F***ing doubt it. I know better.

I have trumped these claims from allot of different people and OFFERED to pay for the two tanks of gas (pre $3.00 gal) to PROVE to me that thier claim was true .... excuses FLY when you pull out the :BS: flag let me tell ya. "Oh ... I don't have time right now" "Oh.... its to windy so it wouldn't be fair" "Oh.... I have .... (fill in any excuse that sounds good cause I have heard them ALL).


BTW: this is IMO and based on experience.


.

I have beat the estimated MPG on my car. I have got 26 when they estimate 24. But I do not average that. Fact is, I average exactly what is claimed on the sticker.

If you would like to pay for a couple tanks of gas, I would gladly prove that to you. I'll even pay for those tanks of gas if I cannot achieve this claim.

Shall I pm you my address?

For the record the sticker claims 24 HWY 17 City. My average overall is 21. But I took my son to Houston a year ago and got 26mpg over a 1500 mile hwy trip. I wasn't even trying to get good gas mileage. I was doing 80 and 85 at times. All this with a car that had less than 1000 miles on it when I started.

The car is an 05 Mustang GT.

CrazyHorse
05-15-2006, 08:25 PM
Notice I haven't mentioned anything abbout trucks, because the Toyo and Nissan's just don't have the years invested into it yet. Though I have heard a lot of bitching about American made trucks from their owners as well, and my Uncle who is die hard Chevy truck guy had to pull the lemon law card on one of those.

Now, if you are going to fix up a HP car, you almost have to go american because they put them out there so weak that there are tons of things you can do to improve performance and handeling. But taking something off the lot I would have to think that some of the Japanese vehicles probably handle better and are better tuned.

I bought an 05 Mustang @300 horses for 24,000 brand new. With leather, 1000 watt stereo and all the bells minus an automatic trans.

It's fairly well tuned. What you got for 24 grand brand new?

recxjake
05-15-2006, 08:31 PM
I own a foreign car because they're NICER than American cars. I love the interior of my VW Passat, and it's fun and easy to drive. Gets good mileage, and is extremely reliable.

Sure, it was more expensive (sticker price was 23,000 and I got a good deal on it for 18K from a guy who owned it previously), but if that's the price of ultimate driving satisfaction these days, I'll take it


they simply are not "nicer".... it's a matter of taste.... The new Tahoe's are very nice, Escalades can't be beat, when it comes to cars the Caddy CTS is awesome, the pontiac G6 is great too. The Buick Lucerne is an industry leader.

Kerberos
05-15-2006, 08:33 PM
I have beat the estimated MPG on my car. I have got 26 when they estimate 24. But I do not average that. Fact is, I average exactly what is claimed on the sticker.

If you would like to pay for a couple tanks of gas, I would gladly prove that to you. I'll even pay for those tanks of gas if I cannot achieve this claim.

Shall I pm you my address?

For the record the sticker claims 24 HWY 17 City. My average overall is 21. But I took my son to Houston a year ago and got 26mpg over a 1500 mile hwy trip. I wasn't even trying to get good gas mileage. I was doing 80 and 85 at times. All this with a car that had less than 1000 miles on it when I started.

The car is an 05 Mustang GT.


I buy gas your coming to me! ;)

You guys can claim this :BS: all damn day long but I'm sorry I KNOW BETTER.

Average car without any modifications will 99.999% of the time NOT get what the sticker is rated at for that type of driving IE: City or Highway.

Maybe you and hts are the two luckiest people on the planet. No pun intended. :D



.

SNR
05-15-2006, 08:34 PM
they simply are not "nicer".... it's a matter of taste.... The new Tahoe's are very nice, Escalades can't be beat, when it comes to cars the Caddy CTS is awesome, the pontiac G6 is great too. The Buick Lucerne is an industry leader.The difference being I trust Germans to install my ass-pleasuring seats more than I trust Uncle Pepe from "down on the other side of town"

morphius
05-15-2006, 08:39 PM
I bought an 05 Mustang @300 horses for 24,000 brand new. With leather, 1000 watt stereo and all the bells minus an automatic trans.

It's fairly well tuned. What you got for 24 grand brand new?
I have gone on record a few times that the new Mustang was the first thing I have seen done right in American cars in a long time, and I will stick with that statement. There are a lot of things that the American Trucks have been doing right and improving on all the time.

Bringing back the GT40 body style was BRILLIANT as well, that and the cobra are two of my favorite all time vehicles.

Skip Towne
05-15-2006, 08:39 PM
I'll never buy a Jap vehicle. My Astrovan has 350,000 miles on it and doesn't use any oil. I have never added a quart between changes (3000 miles) because it is never off the "full" mark. Plus, I can actually work on it myself. Working on Jap shit is harder than Chinese arithmetic.

SNR
05-15-2006, 08:41 PM
I'll never buy a Jap vehicle. My Astrovan has 350,000 miles on it and doesn't use any oil. I have never added a quart between changes (3000 miles) because it is never off the "full" mark. Plus, I can actually work on it myself. Working on Jap shit is harder than Chinese arithmetic.But is it as hard as deleting a post?

CrazyHorse
05-15-2006, 08:43 PM
I buy gas your coming to me! ;)

You guys can claim this :BS: all damn day long but I'm sorry I KNOW BETTER.

Average car without any modifications will 99.999% of the time NOT get what the sticker is rated at for that type of driving IE: City or Highway.

Maybe you and hts are the two luckiest people on the planet. No pun intended. :D



.


I told you I would buy the gas if I cant do it. I dont know how I could be any more fair than that. I live about 250 miles from KC.

But his Fall when I come up for a game, I will restart the counter before I leave. When I get there, I will expect you to buy the gas it took me to get there and the gas it takes me to get home. That ought to be just under 2 tanks of gas. 2 free tanks of gas is pretty lucky. Especially at 3 bucks a gallon. If it's still that cheap when I get there.

In all fairness though I should tell you that I drove a truck for 10 years. I can squeeze pretty fair mileage out of just about anything. Especially if I make an effort.

Skip Towne
05-15-2006, 08:47 PM
But is it as hard as deleting a post?
:shrug: I didn't delete any post.

DomerNKC
05-15-2006, 08:51 PM
they simply are not "nicer".... it's a matter of taste.... The new Tahoe's are very nice, Escalades can't be beat, when it comes to cars the Caddy CTS is awesome, the pontiac G6 is great too. The Buick Lucerne is an industry leader.escalades are crap cans on wheels...the buick laverne and shirly is a "industry leader" in what? highest age owner? check consumer reports idiot, american cars made by overpaid pampered union workers are half as good as those made by american workers on toyota or honda assembly lines. grow some pubic hair before you come speak at the adult table.

Kerberos
05-15-2006, 08:51 PM
I told you I would buy the gas if I cant do it. I dont know how I could be any more fair than that. I live about 250 miles from KC.

But his Fall when I come up for a game, I will restart the counter before I leave. When I get there, I will expect you to buy the gas it took me to get there and the gas it takes me to get home. That ought to be just under 2 tanks of gas. 2 free tanks of gas is pretty lucky. Especially at 3 bucks a gallon. If it's still that cheap when I get there.

In all fairness though I should tell you that I drove a truck for 10 years. I can squeeze pretty fair mileage out of just about anything. Especially if I make an effort.

250 miles from KC ..... Which way? N, S, E or W ???

I live 100+miles East of KC.

AND .... no modifications WHATSOEVER. dual exhaust, new intake, computer modification for MPG. Any mods and deal is OFF

My dad had a friend that built a hydrogen tank to put under the hood of his 77 Chevy pickup and it produced and forced hydrogen into his air cleaner and he claimed he got 2 MPG better than his sticker. He also had dual pipes and no AC belt and a few other MODS to help out.

Any mods and its not the same as the vehicle that was sticker was claimed on.

Excuse on MY part ??? YES .... but a damn good one.

:D


.

recxjake
05-15-2006, 08:55 PM
escalades are crap cans on wheels...the buick laverne and shirly is a "industry leader" in what? highest age owner? check consumer reports idiot, american cars made by overpaid pampered union workers are half as good as those made by american workers on toyota or honda assembly lines. grow some pubic hair before you come speak at the adult table.

you are an idiot

Skip Towne
05-15-2006, 08:57 PM
We have better A-bombs than the Japs.

Adept Havelock
05-15-2006, 08:58 PM
The GM equivilant is the Chevy Cobalt which starts at 13,400 and gets 34 mpg....

Unlike most Cobalt isotopes, Chevy Cobalt has a half life of only nine months or so.

morphius
05-15-2006, 09:12 PM
escalades are crap cans on wheels...the buick laverne and shirly is a "industry leader" in what? highest age owner? check consumer reports idiot, american cars made by overpaid pampered union workers are half as good as those made by american workers on toyota or honda assembly lines. grow some pubic hair before you come speak at the adult table.
Actually, the hourly pay in the Toyo plants is similar to those in the GM plants, just not the stupid insane retirement and bennies that GM is stuck with.

DomerNKC
05-15-2006, 09:44 PM
Actually, the hourly pay in the Toyo plants is similar to those in the GM plants, just not the stupid insane retirement and bennies that GM is stuck with.Yeah, the employees at the Georgetown and Fremont plants have thrown the UAW out everytime they have come in to speak. Funny, Toyota gives the UAW a soapbx everytime the want to speak. They know they take good care of their employees. Let the UAW try to compete for their people. The big three hates competition. They have had their Washington Lobby stack the deck against the Japaneese. Create laws making it difficult for the japaneese to compete. Have the Japaneese cried? No, they are just soundly kicking the big threes asses with both hands tied behind their backs.

DomerNKC
05-15-2006, 09:52 PM
you are an idiotnice. After you are through with highschool, get an opinion. Are you gonna let daddy and GM pick it for you then too? The new Tahoe's are very nice, Escalades can't be beat, when it comes to cars the Caddy CTS is awesome, the pontiac G6 is great too. The Buick Lucerne is an industry leader. Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda. they are getting better in quality,they are getting better in quality,they are getting better in quality,they are getting better in quality...you can say it all you want, it doesn't make it true. the big three have been saying this for years, it is a sales tool. it isn't the truth.

Rukdafaidas
05-15-2006, 09:54 PM
I've owned nothing but American made cars in my life. I've driven over 600,000 miles in them and have yet to have any major repairs (knocking on wood). I think the largest repair was a $50 heater blower.
When I met my wife (girlfriend at the time), she drove a Honda Civic. I could hear her coming a few blocks away, because her brakes were very, very loud. She had taken the car in at least 8 times in a little over a year to fix them, but it never worked. Turns out the rotors needed to be turned while they were on the car. Which requires a $100,000 machine, that only the dealers had.
So, she purchased a Mitsubishi. A year later the distributor went out. I'm thinking no big deal, $60 and it'll be up and running. Nope, the part was at least $400 and I want to say it was $800 (I can't remember), and needed to be shipped from Japan.
My point of this rambling is, all manufacturers make lemons. For people here to say all American cars are junk are just wrong. Just like it's wrong for me to say all foreign cars are junk, just because I've had a bad experience with them.

morphius
05-15-2006, 10:14 PM
I've owned nothing but American made cars in my life. I've driven over 600,000 miles in them and have yet to have any major repairs (knocking on wood). I think the largest repair was a $50 heater blower.
When I met my wife (girlfriend at the time), she drove a Honda Civic. I could hear her coming a few blocks away, because her brakes were very, very loud. She had taken the car in at least 8 times in a little over a year to fix them, but it never worked. Turns out the rotors needed to be turned while they were on the car. Which requires a $100,000 machine, that only the dealers had.
So, she purchased a Mitsubishi. A year later the distributor went out. I'm thinking no big deal, $60 and it'll be up and running. Nope, the part was at least $400 and I want to say it was $800 (I can't remember), and needed to be shipped from Japan.
My point of this rambling is, all manufacturers make lemons. For people here to say all American cars are junk are just wrong. Just like it's wrong for me to say all foreign cars are junk, just because I've had a bad experience with them.
Mitsubushi has never been listed as one of the good japanese vehicles, and for a long time was 1/3 owned by dodge.

COchief
05-15-2006, 10:40 PM
Like any American car company could make something that looks and performs like this:

And for all the homos who were wondering what I drive, eat your hearts out bitches.

my ride, 9K redline baby. (photo by yours truly)

SNR
05-15-2006, 10:56 PM
Like any American car company could make something that looks and performs like this:

And for all the homos who were wondering what I drive, eat your hearts out bitches.

my ride, 9K redline baby. (photo by yours truly)YUO R TEH NUTSCK LIKR!!!!!!!111

SBK
05-15-2006, 11:34 PM
Like any American car company could make something that looks and performs like this:

And for all the homos who were wondering what I drive, eat your hearts out bitches.

my ride, 9K redline baby. (photo by yours truly)

Those are quite fun to drive. Funny to see Honda pulling equal hp out of a 2.0 liter 4 banger that you'd see in an American V-8.

COchief
05-16-2006, 12:09 AM
Those are quite fun to drive. Funny to see Honda pulling equal hp out of a 2.0 liter 4 banger that you'd see in an American V-8.

"quite fun to drive" I think you mean orgasmic to drive.

It is a balls out blast to drive, pretty rare, and I love the styling. I couldn't be happier with my car, sad that the US car companies have fallen so embarrasingly behind the Japanese. I would love to be able to buy a US made auto, I just don't really ever see them evening the score.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 04:26 AM
Like any American car company could make something that looks and performs like this:

my ride, 9K redline baby. (photo by yours truly)


9000 redline huh? Impressive.

I have a remote control 1/8 scale truck that has a 17,000 redline.

By the way, Ill bet you're wrong about that whole America cant make a car that looks and performs like that car. That's just my opinion though.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 04:30 AM
250 miles from KC ..... Which way? N, S, E or W ???

I live 100+miles East of KC.

AND .... no modifications WHATSOEVER. dual exhaust, new intake, computer modification for MPG. Any mods and deal is OFF

My dad had a friend that built a hydrogen tank to put under the hood of his 77 Chevy pickup and it produced and forced hydrogen into his air cleaner and he claimed he got 2 MPG better than his sticker. He also had dual pipes and no AC belt and a few other MODS to help out.

Any mods and its not the same as the vehicle that was sticker was claimed on.

Excuse on MY part ??? YES .... but a damn good one.

:D



.


South.

No mods. Stock as a rock.

Miles
05-16-2006, 05:29 AM
9000 redline huh? Impressive.

I have a remote control 1/8 scale truck that has a 17,000 redline.

By the way, Ill bet you're wrong about that whole America cant make a car that looks and performs like that car. That's just my opinion though.

I really like the Ford GT. Classic design and great performance. However it has some pretty rough mechanical issues.

Also there is no real American counterpart for the S2000. There really are no offerings from the domestic makers that can be put against foreign sports coupes, sports sedans or roadsters.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 05:49 AM
I really like the Ford GT. Classic design and great performance. However it has some pretty rough mechanical issues.

Also there is no real American counterpart for the S2000. There really are no offerings from the domestic makers that can be put against foreign sports coupes, sports sedans or roadsters.



I haven't heard of the mechanical issues with the GT.

Also, there is no Honda counterpart for the GT.

America owns many of the companies offering foriegn sport coupes sport sedans or roadsters.

They're cheaper to build overseas since we dont demand they keep the money in America.

Again, I'll put my sport sedan against any of the other offerings at 24,000 bucks.

Miles
05-16-2006, 05:57 AM
I haven't heard of the mechanical issues with the GT.

Also, there is no Honda counterpart for the GT.

Here is something on the mechanical issues of the GT from a magazine that pretty much loves the car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/9519/at-ford-a-supercar-delivers-a-super-headache.html

Yeah there is no real Honda/Acura counterpart to the GT. The NSX is the only thing that could possibly be put against it but it has over a $50K lower price tag.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 06:10 AM
Here is something on the mechanical issues of the GT from a magazine that pretty much loves the car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/9519/at-ford-a-supercar-delivers-a-super-headache.html

Yeah there is no real Honda/Acura counterpart to the GT. The NSX is the only thing that could possibly be put against it but it has over a $50K lower price tag.

I have no doubt that the GT issues will be fixed. It's not uncommon with any car company, especially with a complete redesign like this to have flaws. The crank issue isn't a small one. The same engine will be going into the new Shelby Cobras. It's a car that is supposed to be offered a 40 grand. Though with limited production, I expect they will go to the highest bidder.

BTW, the NSX isn't even close.

Skip Towne
05-16-2006, 06:20 AM
Somehow, I don't think we are going to reach agreement on this issue.

Miles
05-16-2006, 06:24 AM
I have no doubt that the GT issues will be fixed. It's not uncommon with any car company, especially with a complete redesign like this to have flaws. The crank issue isn't a small one. The same engine will be going into the new Shelby Cobras. It's a car that is supposed to be offered a 40 grand. Though with limited production, I expect they will go to the highest bidder.

BTW, the NSX isn't even close.

Yeah I imagine the mechanical issues will be worked out. I used to own a Mustang SVT cobra and it was fairly solid. This is the first I have heard the new Cobras would be priced that low. Are you talking about the new GT 500 or the concept Shelby's?

And yeah of course the NSX isnt the the same performace category as the Ford GT. Its 50k less expensive.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 07:49 AM
Yeah I imagine the mechanical issues will be worked out. I used to own a Mustang SVT cobra and it was fairly solid. This is the first I have heard the new Cobras would be priced that low. Are you talking about the new GT 500 or the concept Shelby's?

And yeah of course the NSX isnt the the same performace category as the Ford GT. Its 50k less expensive.

The new GT500s. At least, last I heard they were to be on the 40s. I have already heard bids of 90 though. But that is the dealer that will dictate that, not Ford.

It's also notable that the GT is in the supercar category of cars. It lists at 158,000. So comparably it's 50 grand cheaper than it's competition.

Here is a rather lengthy comparison if you feel compelled to read it. But I completely understand if you dont.

BTW, I have owned a couple Cobras.

I now own what will soon be a 500 horse 64 and an 05 Mustang. So you might say I am a Mustang enthusiast.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0506_exotic_coupe_comparison/

COchief
05-16-2006, 08:08 AM
I have no doubt that the GT issues will be fixed. It's not uncommon with any car company, especially with a complete redesign like this to have flaws. The crank issue isn't a small one. The same engine will be going into the new Shelby Cobras. It's a car that is supposed to be offered a 40 grand. Though with limited production, I expect they will go to the highest bidder.

BTW, the NSX isn't even close.

So you walk into a dealership, pay over a $160k for your car...and you are fine that there are major issues all over the place? Yep, definitely an american made fan-boy. Like I said, I would love to be able to buy an american car, but I won't do it out of charity, they have to earn my money, and at the moment they are a long ways away.

I do think Chrysler has made great strides in recent years, I would consider the challenger, if reviews are good.

RedDread
05-16-2006, 08:24 AM
Somehow, I don't think we are going to reach agreement on this issue.




Why does everyone think that a contention that begins with.."well my buddy had problems with his [Random Car] so therefore [Aforementioned Random Car's Manufacturer] must suck" is a valid arguement?

If you want to actually bring something to the table here lets see some Motor Trend, JD Power & Associates awards, MPG ratings, KBB resell value, and some essays on how buying from the big 3 actually benefits America (or not, whatever).

Till then this is just a giant epeen measuring contest.

But I think something we can all agree on is that that rex needs to S T F U.

StcChief
05-16-2006, 08:38 AM
Why does everyone think that a contention that begins with.."well my buddy had problems with his [Random Car] so therefore [Aforementioned Random Car's Manufacturer] must suck" is a valid arguement?

If you want to actually bring something to the table here lets see some Motor Trend, JD Power & Associates awards, MPG ratings, KBB resell value, and some essays on how buying from the big 3 actually benefits America (or not, whatever).

Till then this is just a giant epeen measuring contest.

But I think something we can all agree on is that that rex needs to S T F U.
I agree this is valid point to measure any car.

Some have had no problems or minor maintenance related issues with cars.
Others have had or know someone how has had major issues with cars.

Every company has had issues and different people love/hate their cars for different reasons.

Certain companies produce better products than others a different price points.

Rating an overall company by their overall quality ($ value / quality)
is an objective measure. And should be the true test of overall value worth for product.

Styling is subjective. Wants vs. needs etc.


I would love to see this type of comparison displayed in an unbiased public approach.

Maybe this would settle it and expose strenghts/weakness for public to see.

morphius
05-16-2006, 09:06 AM
"quite fun to drive" I think you mean orgasmic to drive.

It is a balls out blast to drive, pretty rare, and I love the styling. I couldn't be happier with my car, sad that the US car companies have fallen so embarrasingly behind the Japanese. I would love to be able to buy a US made auto, I just don't really ever see them evening the score.
Solstice is about as close to that car as anything the American's do, but in true American fashion they made sure to build it underpowered. Of course they seemed to be competing with the Mazda MX5, but made the vehicle 300 lbs heavier.

recxjake
05-16-2006, 09:09 AM
Solstice is about as close to that car as anything the American's do, but in true American fashion they made sure to build it underpowered. Of course they seemed to be competing with the Mazda MX5, but made the vehicle 300 lbs heavier.

260 horses underpowered?!

recxjake
05-16-2006, 09:11 AM
260 horses underpowered?!

let me clarify.... 177 horses for the base model, 20,000 bucks.... great deal!!! Sold out for the year

260 horses for the solstice GXP

They have to give different options because some people want perfomance, but others want good looks for a cheaper price

morphius
05-16-2006, 09:16 AM
let me clarify.... 177 horses for the base model, 20,000 bucks.... great deal!!! Sold out for the year

260 horses for the solstice GXP

They have to give different options because some people want perfomance, but others want good looks for a cheaper price
Sorry, didn't see that option on the web site, just saw a single listing and didn't try to dig any further.

morphius
05-16-2006, 09:30 AM
Ohhhh, thats why I couldn't find it, its because they haven't released that version yet.

recxjake
05-16-2006, 09:40 AM
Ohhhh, thats why I couldn't find it, its because they haven't released that version yet.

this summer

COchief
05-16-2006, 10:32 AM
Solstice is about as close to that car as anything the American's do, but in true American fashion they made sure to build it underpowered. Of course they seemed to be competing with the Mazda MX5, but made the vehicle 300 lbs heavier.


The solstice is a step in the right direction for GM, but I personally still think the front grille is ugly. They are just so far behind the times on styling, look at the camaro debacle, they will be 4-5 years behind Ford, that is laughable in itself. Plus the concept looks badass, but you know they won't build it with 20in tires, they will probably go 17-18 at the most and bland out the styling. One thing I give Ford credit for is that they had to beans to basically build the concept mustang without making it so bland. I do not have faith that GM will do the same.

morphius
05-16-2006, 10:50 AM
The solstice is a step in the right direction for GM, but I personally still think the front grille is ugly. They are just so far behind the times on styling, look at the camaro debacle, they will be 4-5 years behind Ford, that is laughable in itself. Plus the concept looks badass, but you know they won't build it with 20in tires, they will probably go 17-18 at the most and bland out the styling. One thing I give Ford credit for is that they had to beans to basically build the concept mustang without making it so bland. I do not have faith that GM will do the same.
It's odd, but the Saturn version is a lot better looking, I don't like the Pontiac's front end either. Of course I will be shocked if they actually give the better looking Saturn the performance upgrades, because that would be smart...

I did read they were ending the GTO this year and going to bring it back in 08 to fix its bland styling issue. So they are at least fixing some mistakes.

recxjake
05-16-2006, 10:55 AM
It's odd, but the Saturn version is a lot better looking, I don't like the Pontiac's front end either. Of course I will be shocked if they actually give the better looking Saturn the performance upgrades, because that would be smart...

I did read they were ending the GTO this year and going to bring it back in 08 to fix its bland styling issue. So they are at least fixing some mistakes.

the new GTO will be the pontiac version of the new camaro coming out

a lot of peeps like the looks of the solstice, like i said earlier, its sold out

the saturn sky redline is getting a 260 hp engine also

morphius
05-16-2006, 11:15 AM
the new GTO will be the pontiac version of the new camaro coming out

a lot of peeps like the looks of the solstice, like i said earlier, its sold out

the saturn sky redline is getting a 260 hp engine also
I'm sure they do, but I think there are a lot of people that don't like it as well.

I know about the GTO, hence the reason I mentioned it. I'm glad to hear they are doing the right thing for Saturn, thiers looks a lot more like the S2000.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 11:46 AM
Nice to see that some *qualified* individuals got this thread off-track to the point where it actually contained some meaningful info.

That's too bad too, it's so much fun being bombarded by jake's blind propaganda...

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 11:51 AM
Not to burst your bubble, but.... Some of us do NOT want an econobox that gets 42MPG. Some of us actually need a full size truck that is actually capable of hauling heavy loads, or towing heavy loads. Foreign made trucks just won't cut it for that. Performance cars? I'll still take a Corvette or Viper over ANYTHING the Japanese make. The best full size car for the price? The Dodge Intrepid, and it even gets close to 30 MPG... Not too bad for a big car. Don't get me wrong, there ARE things that the Japanese to better than we do when it comes to automobiles, especially when it comes to compacts and sub compacts. The big 3 STILL haven't done a very good job there, even after all of these years which I feel is inexcusable. The Japanese also don't have the price advantages that they used to, and the Big 3 HAS closed the quality gap considerably. Fords are still pieces of junk, I'll NEVER own another one of those. Before you go accusing me of being a union guy, know this... I HATE unions!!! UAW employees are some of the most overpayed people on earth!! They get payed $20/hr to do jobs thak monkees can do. How hard is it to tighten the same three bolts over? I've got friends who work at the Claycomo plant, and they do things on a daily basis that would get me, or anybody else who works elsewhere, fired for doing it even once!! I won't even get into sports unions.... All said, I'll have to disagree with you, at least partially.

So basically, you're saying the everybody has individual needs and tastes and that one car company can't be everything for everybody?

Thanks for making my point for me.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 12:16 PM
So you walk into a dealership, pay over a $160k for your car...and you are fine that there are major issues all over the place? Yep, definitely an american made fan-boy. Like I said, I would love to be able to buy an american car, but I won't do it out of charity, they have to earn my money, and at the moment they are a long ways away.

I do think Chrysler has made great strides in recent years, I would consider the challenger, if reviews are good.

There are not major issues. They are issues that have been fixed on an all new design. Some of the issues are those where Porshe parts weren't good enough. As well as Japanese manufacturing. Those parts didn't hold up. So Ford had to remedy the issue.

Besides, as I have already stated in this thread, I have been driving American cars for 25 years and have yet to break down once. I dont know what more you want out of a car.

you are simply looking for justification for your ignorance on the subject. I doubt I will remedy that with logic, or facts for that matter.

Keep your ricer.

However, you should be aware that my new Mustang has a power to weight ratio that is 12 lbs per horsepower. Yours is 12.1. My Mustang is 10 grand Cheaper and built on the Jaguar S-Type chassis.

Have a nice day.

COchief
05-16-2006, 12:37 PM
There are not major issues. They are issues that have been fixed on an all new design. Some of the issues are those where Porshe parts weren't good enough. As well as Japanese manufacturing. Those parts didn't hold up. So Ford had to remedy the issue.

Besides, as I have already stated in this thread, I have been driving American cars for 25 years and have yet to break down once. I dont know what more you want out of a car.

you are simply looking for justification for your ignorance on the subject. I doubt I will remedy that with logic, or facts for that matter.

Keep your ricer.

Have a nice day.

I want a quality product, a nice interior, excellent handling, great seats, timeless styling, and a 9K redline . Which is exactly what I have.

I will keep it, what the hell would I ever trade it for, a ford? ROFL

If Ford kicks so much ass, why were they using Porsche and Jap parts in the first place.

Keep your mullet

By the way lets see some pics of your badass ride, I posted mine.

COchief
05-16-2006, 12:41 PM
thiers looks a lot more like the S2000.

"looks can be deceiving" and in this case they most certainly are.

I agree that the saturn is a pretty nice looking car, but GM is 16 years behind Mazda, 6 behind Honda, and many behind other various manufacturers with the idea that there may just be a market for a 2 seat roadster that is fun to drive.

Brock
05-16-2006, 12:42 PM
I have been driving American cars for 25 years and have yet to break down once.

What a load of crap.

recxjake
05-16-2006, 12:44 PM
"looks can be deceiving" and in this case they most certainly are.

I agree that the saturn is a pretty nice looking car, but GM is 16 years behind Mazda, 6 behind Honda, and many behind other various manufacturers with the idea that there may just be a market for a 2 seat roadster that is fun to drive.

i think that sales will determine that... and it's impossible to get either of these cars... they are selling for thousands over msrp.... they are both sold out for the entire model year... a matter of fact GM is considering expanding capacity levels

COchief
05-16-2006, 12:44 PM
What a load of crap.


I agree he is full of complete and total bullshit, like nothing has ever happened in 25years.

COchief
05-16-2006, 12:48 PM
i think that sales will determine that... and it's impossible to get either of these cars... they are selling for thousands over msrp.... they are both sold out for the entire model year... a matter of fact GM is considering expanding capacity levels


I do like the cars, but they are just so late to the market with everything (see camaro). Think of all the sales they could have stolen from miata, s2k, Z3, TT...and so on. Those are people who wanted a specific kind of car, and are now lost customers. They are not people who decided to buy a malibu because GM had nothing "fun" to offer. They took their business elsewhere (again see Mustang/Camaro).

recxjake
05-16-2006, 12:50 PM
I do like the cars, but they are just so late to the market with everything (see camaro). Think of all the sales they could have stolen from miata, s2k, Z3, TT...and so on. Those are people who wanted a specific kind of car, and are now lost customers. They are not people who decided to by a malibu because GM had nothing "fun" to offer. They took their business elsewhere (again see Mustang/Camaro).


I'm the first to admit that GM is always 1-3 years late entering segments... heck it took them 7 years to get the Tahoe's out! They are finally showing signs of changing some of this crap

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 01:29 PM
By the way lets see some pics of your badass ride, I posted mine.

Which one?

They are a little dirty. But you'll get the point.

THe white is the new one I have told you about. Only 24 K and will easily run with your car.

The black one we wont talk about. Let's just say it will eat your ****ing lunch on every level. Total investment 32. Bought new.

The old 65, well you could be right about this one. It's not running. I am in the process of getting it running again though. Note the engine in the avy. Total investment on the car will be about 26 grand.

They are all American made. And only 1 wouldn't stomp a mudhole in your Honda.

I can upload a couple picks of my buddy's 68 Shelby GT500. We dropped a 600 horse 427 in it the other day.

I will conceed that none of these cars will rev to 9K though. that's gotta be worth something.

None of these cars cost nearly what yours did new.

Any more questions bitch?

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 01:30 PM
I agree he is full of complete and total bullshit, like nothing has ever happened in 25years.

Well....you guys would know better than I would. Driving ricers and all.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 01:36 PM
Well....you guys would know better than I would. Driving ricers and all.

Nice.

And it's any wonder people grow tired of the the American muscle car attitude.

It's precisely this type of stance, taken by the Big 3 auto makers, that has caused a mass exodus to foreign cars...

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 01:40 PM
So you're saying that I am the reason you drive a ricer? Sounds ridiculous.

No, I'm saying attitudes like yours are the reason American auto companies are struggling to compete.

"To hell with consumer confidence, just keep selling what we have. It's GREAT, because I told you it's great."

1976 called, Mr. Wooderson.

Brock
05-16-2006, 01:45 PM
So you're saying that I am the reason you drive a ricer? Sounds ridiculous.

I contend that it is misinformation that is the reason for a mass exodus. But to each his own.

It might be because people have caught on to the stupidity of spending money on an asset that depreciates by 20 percent before mile 1, and is worth roughly 20 percent at five years. I have a Honda that's worth that much 15 years and 200k miles later.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 01:48 PM
No, I'm saying attitudes like yours are the reason American auto companies are struggling to compete.

"To hell with consumer confidence, just keep selling what we have. It's GREAT, because I told you it's great."

1976 called, Mr. Wooderson.

I form my own opinion on the cars I drive.

I'll put my 24K in American dollars against your 24K in japanese.
What's 1976 about that?

Consumer confidence is a direct reflection of the misinformation spewed by dumbasses who dont know what the **** they are talking about. But act as though they do.

Go to your local garage and see how many foreign to domestic cars are sitting there broke down. You will se how ridiculous threads like this are.

It is this type of misiformation that keeps the big 3 down. It's aggrivating to someone who is trying to send his kid to school while dipshits like you send your money somewhere else.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 01:48 PM
It might be because people have caught on to the stupidity of spending money on an asset that depreciates by 20 percent before mile 1, and is worth roughly 20 percent at five years. I have a Honda that's worth that much 15 years and 200k miles later.

Communist. If you had any pride at all, you'd buy American, no matter what the cost...

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 01:49 PM
It might be because people have caught on to the stupidity of spending money on an asset that depreciates by 20 percent before mile 1, and is worth roughly 20 percent at five years. I have a Honda that's worth that much 15 years and 200k miles later.


Oh really?

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 01:51 PM
Communist. If you had any pride at all, you'd buy American, no matter what the cost...

Tell me a better bang for the buck automobile for 24K than a new 2006 Mustang GT in its class.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 01:51 PM
I form my own opinion on the cars I drive.

I'll put my 24K in American dollars against your 24K in japanese.
What's 1976 about that?

Consumer confidence is a direct reflection of the misinformation spewed by dumbasses who dont know what the **** they are talking about. But act as though they do.

Go to your local garage and see how many foreign to domestic cars are sitting there broke down. You will se how ridiculous threads like this are.

It is this type of misiformation that keeps the big 3 down. It's aggrivating to someone who is trying to send his kid to school while dipshits like you send your money somewhere else.

First of all, at my local garage, there are 4 times as many Dodges and Jeeps in the garage as imports. That has everything to do with demographics (small town) and the fact that they're a Dodge/Jeep dealership. The number of broken down cars in the garage lot has ZERO to do with overall brand quality.

As far as sending your kid to school, maybe you should spend some that money on yourself. Your lack of understanding of multi-national corporations and where your money is going is plainly evident.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 01:52 PM
Tell me a better bang for the buck automobile for 24K than a new 2006 Mustang GT in its class.

Is this a serious question?

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 01:53 PM
Tell me a better bang for the buck automobile for 24K than a new 2006 Mustang GT in its class.

Yes.

jlscorpio
05-16-2006, 01:54 PM
I own a Saab, and I pose the question...a Saab is still made in Sweden, but is owned by GM. Did I buy American or not?

Bob Dole
05-16-2006, 01:54 PM
It is this type of misiformation that keeps the big 3 down. It's aggrivating to someone who is trying to send his kid to school while dipshits like you send your money somewhere else.

Bob Dole wanted to buy a Japanese car, but it was too frustrating trying to talk to all those Japanese sales people and mechanics at the dealership.

recxjake
05-16-2006, 01:55 PM
I own a Saab, and I pose the question...a Saab is still made in Sweden, but is owned by GM. Did I buy American or not?

American.... Saab is still independent though

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 01:57 PM
Tell me a better bang for the buck automobile for 24K than a new 2006 Mustang GT in its class.

I guess if you're actually serious, I guess I'll answer...

A better bang for the buck than the 2006 Mustang GT would be:

Damn near anything.

I have zero use for a muscle car. I commute 80 miles per day.

And therein lies the difference between you and I - the fundamental mindset that has hurt the American auto manufacturer.

A car is a TOOL for most people anymore. It is not an "experience" nor is it a "pleasure". It is a means to an end. Why would I pay $2500 for a jackhammer when I need a $6 hammer?

Brock
05-16-2006, 01:58 PM
I guess if you're actually serious, I guess I'll answer...

A better bang for the buck than the 2006 Mustang GT would be:

Damn near anything.

I have zero use for a muscle car. I commute 80 miles per day.

And therein lies the difference between you and I - the fundamental mindset that has hurt the American auto manufacturer.

A car is a TOOL for most people anymore. It is not an "experience" nor is it a "pleasure". It is a means to an end. Why would I pay $2500 for a jackhammer when I need a $6 hammer?

he gets to work 15 minutes before you do. ROFL

(if he doesn't get a ticket)

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 01:59 PM
The number of broken down cars in the garage lot has ZERO to do with overall brand quality.

Yeah....okay

As far as sending your kid to school, maybe you should spend some that money on yourself. Your lack of understanding of multi-national corporations and where your money is going is plainly evident.

On the contrary. Not only do I understand where the money goes, I understand that there is no such thing as an American car and a foriegn car. There is so much outsourcing and palm greasing that they are barely different.

Your multinational companies are putiing the money in thier own pockets by sending your jobs overseas. Thusly, we don't get any of it.

Did I get it right professor?

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 02:01 PM
On the contrary. Not only do I understand where the money goes, I understand that there is no such thing as an American car and a foriegn car. There is so much outsourcing and palm greasing that they are barely different.

Your multinational companies are putiing the money in thier own pockets by sending your jobs overseas. Thusly, we don't get any of it.

Did I get it right professor?

If there's no such thing as an "American" car, why do you continually use the term "ricer"?

Something tells me that your Mustang GT has far more meaning to you than just a car...something about the size of the engine...

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 02:04 PM
I guess if you're actually serious, I guess I'll answer...

A better bang for the buck than the 2006 Mustang GT would be:

Damn near anything.

I have zero use for a muscle car. I commute 80 miles per day.

And therein lies the difference between you and I - the fundamental mindset that has hurt the American auto manufacturer.

A car is a TOOL for most people anymore. It is not an "experience" nor is it a "pleasure". It is a means to an end. Why would I pay $2500 for a jackhammer when I need a $6 hammer?


I didn't expect you to be able to answer it. In it's class it would be near impossible to beat the new mustang for the money.

I think with your position on economy and efficiency, this is the tool for you.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 02:06 PM
I didn't expect you to be able to answer it. In it's class it would be near impossible to beat the new mustang for the money.

I think with your position on economy and efficiency, this is the tool for you.

Amazing. I had you pegged from the start.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 02:08 PM
If there's no such thing as an "American" car, why do you continually use the term "ricer"?

Something tells me that your Mustang GT has far more meaning to you than just a car...something about the size of the engine...

I will conceed that notion. My car is more than just a car to me. It is a hobby. Performance is part of it. Nostalgia is part of it.

Cars are a passion for me like the Chiefs are.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 02:10 PM
I will conceed that notion. My car is more than just a car to me. It is a hobby. Performance is part of it. Nostalgia is part of it.

Cars are a passion for me like the Chiefs are.

I wouldn't even own a car if I didn't have to have one.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 02:10 PM
Amazing. I had you pegged from the start.

Then why continue to point out that you cannot defend yourself. In every aspect of this debate I have answered your questions while you dance around mine.

Do you really have anything to say? Or is this where you will be reduced to talking about the size of my cock? edit: Never mind you've already started that.

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 02:11 PM
Then why continue to point out that you cannot defend yourself. In every aspect of this debate I have answered your questions while you dance around mine.

Do you really have anything to say? Or is this where you will be reduced to talking about the size of my cock?

I did answer your question, but apparently you refuse to acknowledge the answer.

The 2006 Mustang GT has ZERO value to me. ZERO.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 02:13 PM
I did answer your question, but apparently you refuse to acknowledge the answer.

The 2006 Mustang GT has ZERO value to me. ZERO.


The question was, at it's price point what car has a better bang for the buck in it's class.

The question never inviolved what value you personally placed on the car.

We'll just end it here.

Spicy McHaggis
05-16-2006, 02:50 PM
I wouldn't even own a car if I didn't have to have one.

United States v. National City Lines (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/334/573.html)

One of the reasons you have to.

GM was partners with NCL

COchief
05-16-2006, 02:59 PM
Which one?

They are a little dirty. But you'll get the point.

THe white is the new one I have told you about. Only 24 K and will easily run with your car.

The black one we wont talk about. Let's just say it will eat your ****ing lunch on every level. Total investment 32. Bought new.

The old 65, well you could be right about this one. It's not running. I am in the process of getting it running again though. Note the engine in the avy. Total investment on the car will be about 26 grand.

They are all American made. And only 1 wouldn't stomp a mudhole in your Honda.

I can upload a couple picks of my buddy's 68 Shelby GT500. We dropped a 600 horse 427 in it the other day.

I will conceed that none of these cars will rev to 9K though. that's gotta be worth something.


Holey sheet, have to edit after looking at pictures, nice Automatic, seriously you are a ****ing woman. Is that even a real GT? Looks like you bought an emblem on Ebay. Why don't you post a pic of the rear so I can laugh at the single exhaust. Nice cobra two dipshit mullet. 15 in five stars and blacked out lights, its not 1988 anymore time to put away the motley crew tapes.



None of these cars cost nearly what yours did new.

Any more questions bitch?

This is too easy... Ok dumbshit, first of all with out even looking I am assuming the white is a V6.

1. S2000 0-60 is 5.5, V6 autotragic is about 7 seconds. One and a half seconds to 60 is a serious asskicking.

2. Gt 0-60 is 5.1, enjoy your 4/10ths of a second, given I am ten times the driver you are, you would be seeing tailights in head to head.

3. S2000 has one option package, a hardtop, no bitch version like the majority of Mustangs sold are. Every S2000 has 240+ horses a six speed manual and that oh so sweet 9k redline, you will never see Fraz in a S2000 because they don't make a bitch version.

4. "Gt will own in every way", is that a fact dipshit? You may want to look up some slalom and lateral "G" statistics between the two. Real men turn when they race, again you would be looking at my sweet jap tailights. Also check on resale value, pretty sure you lose that one.

So congratulations, you bought a plain-jane, boring, see ten times a day, female dominated buyer base, american piece of shit.

What was your argument again?


Holy shit have to edit after laughing at pictures.

Is that even a real GT, nice automatic woman, real men drive manual. It looks like you bought a GT emblem off ebay and glued it on the bitch version.
Also, nice cobra lol five star chrome rims and blacked out lights. Its not 1988 anymore dumbass, time to put the poison cassettes in the closet.

burt
05-16-2006, 03:25 PM
escalades are crap cans on wheels...the buick laverne and shirly is a "industry leader" in what? highest age owner? check consumer reports idiot, american cars made by overpaid pampered union workers are half as good as those made by american workers on toyota or honda assembly lines. grow some pubic hair before you come speak at the adult table.

Don't you own a Chevy? And don't talk about the mans patteeu, I mean pubis.....

htismaqe
05-16-2006, 03:26 PM
The question was, at it's price point what car has a better bang for the buck in it's class.

The question never inviolved what value you personally placed on the car.

We'll just end it here.

Once again, you've come right back to my original point.

Your "question" is ridiculous.

If you remove the value I personally place on the car, you have removed the ONE THING that gives your "question" merit.

burt
05-16-2006, 03:37 PM
Like any American car company could make something that looks and performs like this:

And for all the homos who were wondering what I drive, eat your hearts out bitches.

my ride, 9K redline baby. (photo by yours truly)

COchief
05-16-2006, 03:57 PM
Dale,

Thanks in advance for not shitting up the thread with flames.

That car has 177 HP, I have given it props, but they are sooo late to the market and are still underperforming. But for a 20K brand new car based on looks alone, that is tough to beat. They did a good job, but just lost out on a lot of buyers in that segment.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 03:59 PM
Holy shit have to edit after laughing at pictures.

Is that even a real GT, nice automatic woman, real men drive manual. It looks like you bought a GT emblem off ebay and glued it on the bitch version.
Also, nice cobra lol five star chrome rims and blacked out lights. Its not 1988 anymore dumbass, time to put the poison cassettes in the closet.


The headlights on the black still look brand new, because of the blackouts. This is important to me due to the collector status of the car. The "5 star chrome" rims are a rare Australian wheel that are hand polished aluminum. Not the painted machine polished garbage that is on the overpriced rig you're driving. This is the car I said would eat your lunch in every way. Nice try though.

Further, your contention that the GT(white) has an automatic transmission is incorrect. It is a standard. I guess that makes me a real man and all. Though it should be noted that a dragster is an automatic transmission car. Also, any real race car is limited by a standard trans because a standard does not alow you to preload the suspension on launch. I expect you already know that being 10 times the driver that I am.

Finally, while glueing on the GT emblem, I went ahead and dropped in the 300 horse V8 and ran some dual exhaust while I was at it. Thusly making it quicker than your shitbox for 10 grand less money. It is the only car listed that wont stomp a mudhole in said shitbox.

All of these cars are less expensive and perform on at least one level better than does the S2000.

The pics you requested are as follows.

1) Is a pic of the dual exhaust you requested.
2) Is a picture of the "stick shift". Those numbers are indicative of standard transmissions. You knew that though, being 10 times the driver I am though....huh?
3) I added this because it is a picture of a V8 engine. 9K is not required for these.

Dont look now....your dumb**** is hanging out.

burt
05-16-2006, 04:06 PM
Here is something on the mechanical issues of the GT from a magazine that pretty much loves the car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/9519/at-ford-a-supercar-delivers-a-super-headache.html

Yeah there is no real Honda/Acura counterpart to the GT. The NSX is the only thing that could possibly be put against it but it has over a $50K lower price tag.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 04:07 PM
Nice car.

Does it rev to 9000 rpms? That's important.

burt
05-16-2006, 04:09 PM
I would consider the challenger, if reviews are good.

As much as I don't like you.....I agree....this ought to be a sweet ride....

Calcountry
05-16-2006, 04:15 PM
Hey Jakebrake, did you know, that Toyota sold the big three its outdated Hybrid technology?

Out of the kindness of their hearts?

burt
05-16-2006, 04:18 PM
? Or is this where you will be reduced to talking about the size of my cock? edit: Never mind you've already started that.

I VOTE AGAINST THIS THREAD SWERVE.......

COchief
05-16-2006, 04:20 PM
The headlights on the black still look brand new, because of the blackouts. This is important to me due to the collector status of the car. The "5 star chrome" rims are a rare Australian wheel that are hand polished aluminum. Not the painted machine polished garbage that is on the overpriced rig you're driving. This is the car I said would eat your lunch in every way. Nice try though.

Further, your contention that the GT(white) has an automatic transmission is incorrect. It is a standard. I guess that makes me a real man and all. Though it should be noted that a dragster is an automatic transmission car. Also, any real race car is limited by a standard trans because a standard does not alow you to preload the suspension on launch. I expect you already know that being 10 times the driver that I am.

Finally, while glueing on the GT emblem, I went ahead and dropped in the 300 horse V8 and ran some dual exhaust while I was at it. Thusly making it quicker than your shitbox for 10 grand less money. It is the only car listed that wont stomp a mudhole in said shitbox.

All of these cars are less expensive and perform on at least one level better than does the S2000.

The pics you requested are as follows.

1) Is a pic of the dual exhaust you requested.
2) Is a picture of the "stick shift". Those numbers are indicative of standard transmissions. You knew that though, being 10 times the driver I am though....huh?
3) I added this because it is a picture of a V8 engine. 9K is not required for these.

Dont look now....your dumb**** is hanging out.

If you really think either the black or white mustang is a good looking and performing car, then we just have to agree to disagree. I live in CO, where we have twisty mountain roads, I enjoy taking these are exhilerating speeds. You enjoy stomping on the gas and holding the wheel straight.


You obviously have what you want, as do I.

You never addressed the fact that the s2000 would hand you your ass in either one of those mullestangs on any racetrack (nascar isnt racing). I take it you concede this point?

recxjake
05-16-2006, 04:23 PM
Hey Jakebrake, did you know, that Toyota sold the big three its outdated Hybrid technology?

Out of the kindness of their hearts?

WRONG.... GM, BMW and Chrysler developed a new hybrid technolgy that costs thousands less

recxjake
05-16-2006, 04:25 PM
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...27/005036.html

Vienna, Apr 27, 2006
The state-of-the-art full hybrid system, whose components are being co-developed by General Motors Corp., DaimlerChrysler and the BMW Group for production beginning next year, represents a major automotive industry milestone due to the unprecedented fully integrated combination of electric motors with a fixed-gear transmission.

As a result of its low- and high-speed electric continuously variable transmission (ECVT) modes, the system is commonly referred to as the 2-mode hybrid. However, the sophisticated fuel-saving system also incorporates four fixed gear ratios for high efficiency and power-handling capabilities in a broad variety of vehicle applications. During the two ECVT modes and four fixed gear operations, the hybrid system can use the electric motors for boosting and regenerative braking.

In summary, the four fixed gears overlay two ECVT modes for a total of six operating functions:

* Input-split ECVT mode, or continuously variable Mode 1, operates from vehicle launch through the second fixed gear ratio.
* Compound-split ECVT mode, or continuously variable Mode 2, operates after the second fixed gear ratio.
* First fixed-gear ratio with both electric motors available to boost the internal combustion engine or capture and store energy from regenerative braking, deceleration and coasting.
* Second fixed-gear ratio with one electric motor available for boost/braking,
* Third fixed-gear ratio with two electric motors available for boost/braking.
* Fourth fixed-gear ratio with one electric motor available for boost/braking.

The result is trend-setting hybrid technology that provides superior fuel economy, performance and load carrying capability.

The full hybrid system being co-developed by General Motors, DaimlerChrysler and the BMW Group has an overall mechanical content and size similar to a conventional automatic transmission, yet this full hybrid transmission can operate in infinitely variable gear ratios or one of the four fixed-gear ratios.

A sophisticated electronic control module constantly optimizes the entire hybrid powertrain system to select the most efficient operation point for the power level demanded by the driver.

Key Advantages

When compared to conventional hybrid systems, this avant-garde hybrid technology, relying on both the ECVT modes and the four fixed gear ratios, provides advantages in combined (city and highway) fuel economy, dynamics and towing capability.

Traditional hybrid systems typically have only one torque-splitting arrangement and no fixed mechanical ratios. These systems are often called “one-mode” hybrids. Due to their less capable mechanical content, one-mode hybrids need to transmit a significant amount of power through an electrical path that is 20 percent less efficient than a mechanical path. This requires usually substantial compromise in vehicle capability or reliance on larger electrical motors, which can create cost, weight and packaging issues.

General Motors, DaimlerChrysler and the BMW Group have conceived a full hybrid system featuring four fixed mechanical ratios, within the two ECVT modes, to reduce power transmission through the less efficient electrical path. Consequently, the electric motors are more compact and less dependent on engine size.

This combination of two ECVT modes and four fixed gear ratios eliminates the drawbacks of one-mode hybrid systems to allow for efficient operation throughout a vehicle’s operating range, at low and high speeds. It also allows for application across a broader variety of vehicles. It is particularly beneficial in demanding applications that require larger engines, such as towing, hill climbing or carrying heavy loads.

Existing internal combustion engines can be used with relatively minimal alteration because the full hybrid system imposes no significant limitation on the size or type of engine. It enables the three global automakers to package internal combustion engines with the full hybrid transmissions more cost-effectively and offer the fuel-saving technology across a wider range of vehicles.

Initial applications are suitable for front-engine, rear- and four-wheel-drive vehicle architectures, but the full hybrid system has the flexibility to be used in front-engine, front-wheel-drive architectures in the future as well.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 04:30 PM
If you really think either the black or white mustang is a good looking and performing car, then we just have to agree to disagree. I live in CO, where we have twisty mountain roads, I enjoy taking these are exhilerating speeds. You enjoy stomping on the gas and holding the wheel straight.


You obviously have what you want, as do I.

You never addressed the fact that the s2000 would hand you your ass in either one of those mullestangs on any racetrack (nascar isnt racing). I take it you concede this point?

The Cobra and the 64 would out handle the S2000.

Major supension upgrades on the 64. Minor on the 97. Both still under 35,000.

As I posted earlier, there is only one car that wont stomp a mudhole in the S2000. It's the 05 GT. It will beat it in a line, not in the turns. A set of springs would fix that.

Haven't you figured out yet that you are talking with someone that knows more about performance than what's listed in the brochure? These cars posted are pretty hot cars. Especially the 64. It may not look it. But it's a work in progress. It's a bonified 500 horse track car.

I do think that all are good looking cars. Including yours.

But if I were going to invest 35 to 40 grand in a car, it sure as hell wouldn't be off the shelf. You see, I am better than any of the manufacturers listed in this thread. And I am American

burt
05-16-2006, 04:34 PM
You never addressed the fact that the s2000 would hand you your ass in either one of those mullestangs on any racetrack (nascar isnt racing). I take it you concede this point?

Both the S2000 and Mustang are good to great cars.

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 04:37 PM
Both the S2000 and Mustang are good to great cars.

I believe strongly he is underestimating the handling on the new Mustangs as well. It's built on a Jaguar chassis

COchief
05-16-2006, 05:02 PM
words

Agreed, BTW that 64 looks badass, those stangs are about the only desirable affordable muscle car left. I would buy one if I had the time/effort to do it up right as a project. I know the potential of the cobras and it is indeed something to be reckoned with.

Here we are two performance car enthusiasts arguing with each other, we really should join forces on a tool like Fraz for giving the new mustang the market that makes it unappealing to me.

/always respects another car guy, even if we are on opposite ends of the spectrum

/s2k would destroy a stock cobra on a track though, but I think you already knew that

cheers :toast:

Detoxing
05-16-2006, 05:17 PM
Hey Crazyhorse, you should check us out. http://www.autoworksracing.com/ We do restomod mustangs and other fords. The Super Coupe R puts out 750 hp at the wheels. Right now we are building 3 mustangs, one will be a convertable "elanore", which is what im currently working on right now.

burt
05-16-2006, 05:21 PM
The reality is.....we all purchase vehicles for different reasons. My wife has a BIG SUV, that I would NEVER drive. It's wants, likes, needs....and they are all different. I like the S2000, I like the Mustangs that Crazy built, and sounds like I'd like the DR.s stang. But we all have different needs. Like some on this board, MPG drives me. But I won't disparage other vehicles...

morphius
05-16-2006, 05:41 PM
The reality is.....we all purchase vehicles for different reasons. My wife has a BIG SUV, that I would NEVER drive. It's wants, likes, needs....and they are all different. I like the S2000, I like the Mustangs that Crazy built, and sounds like I'd like the DR.s stang. But we all have different needs. Like some on this board, MPG drives me. But I won't disparage other vehicles...
Yup, we needed a car with front wheel drive and four doors with decent gas millage to be our family car. If I could buy another vehicle it would be all about the gas millage, horse power doesn't do a lot of good in stop and go rush hour traffic.

DomerNKC
05-16-2006, 06:28 PM
Don't you own a Chevy? And don't talk about the mans patteeu, I mean pubis.....I own a Chevy. If I wasn't buried in it i'd trade it for a Toyota. i Wouldn't trade my other car for it, and it has 170,000 miles.

DomerNKC
05-16-2006, 06:30 PM
GM ain't gonna like this.http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/images/nextel/gallery/reveal/photo_5.jpg

Mosbonian
05-16-2006, 06:36 PM
The reality is.....we all purchase vehicles for different reasons. My wife has a BIG SUV, that I would NEVER drive. It's wants, likes, needs....and they are all different. I like the S2000, I like the Mustangs that Crazy built, and sounds like I'd like the DR.s stang. But we all have different needs. Like some on this board, MPG drives me. But I won't disparage other vehicles...

While the large part of this thread became a piss-and-vinegar-, testosterone-laden, my ride's got more HP than yours pissing contest, you hit the nail on the head.

FWIW, I drive a "ricer" (as CrazyHorse put it) for two reasons:

1) My Toyota gets me the gas mileage I want...

2) I spend less on repairs even though one trip to the Dealership is more expensive than for an American made car.

I would, however, like to see those who claim American cars are more reliable than foreign explain this to me:

My wife, from 1994 to 2002 owned the following:

1) Ford Taurus
2) Plymouth Voyager
3) Ford Conversion Van
4) Dodge Grand Caravan

All of the above were pieces of shit that cost me tons of money to repair. The Dodge Grand Caravan was a new vehicle that was nothing but a problem from DAY 1! And trying to work with the Chrysler Customer Service Department was worse than trying to get help at a private hospital when you have no insurance!!!!!!

Let me go even one better....on the conversion van, my wife got talked into an Extended Warranty plan called Easy Care....owned by a company named American Protective Corporation....owned by, yep you guessed it FORD MOTOR COMPANY...when we tried to avail ourselves of the warranty on an item that even the dealership said should be covered, we ran head long into a brick wall. We tried 3 times to use the warranty on items that were supposed to be covered and never once were successful.

During that same time I owned 2 cars:

1) 1991 Toyota Camry
2) 2000 Toyota Camry

The only time I ever had to take either car to the dealership for repairs? I was traveling on a side street in Liberty when a smartass kid in his Camaro saw his buddy in the old Wal-mart parking lot....he hit his brakes and gunned his engines into reverse, backing into me at a hig rate of speed....my friends all told me that my car would never be the same. But when the Toyota Dealer repair shop finished with it, you couldn't tell a thing. And that car ran for another 8 years until I traded it in for the 2000 Camry....Never had a bit of trouble with either car...but fell in love with the Toyota Tacoma Quad Cab I own now, so I traded for it.

And just for the record, CrazyHorse....I read this post earlier in the day and decided to stop by the Toyota/Ford Dealership to see just how many in the repair shop were American vs. Foreign....not even close...American.

m:mad:dog
********

recxjake
05-16-2006, 07:26 PM
GM ain't gonna like this.http://www.toyota.com/motorsports/images/nextel/gallery/reveal/photo_5.jpg


actually this is gonna end up hurting toyota, the southerners are already pissed about it and they havent even started yet

CrazyHorse
05-16-2006, 07:32 PM
While the large part of this thread became a piss-and-vinegar-, testosterone-laden, my ride's got more HP than yours pissing contest, you hit the nail on the head.

FWIW, I drive a "ricer" (as CrazyHorse put it) for two reasons:

1) My Toyota gets me the gas mileage I want...

2) I spend less on repairs even though one trip to the Dealership is more expensive than for an American made car.

I would, however, like to see those who claim American cars are more reliable than foreign explain this to me:

My wife, from 1994 to 2002 owned the following:

1) Ford Taurus
2) Plymouth Voyager
3) Ford Conversion Van
4) Dodge Grand Caravan

All of the above were pieces of shit that cost me tons of money to repair. The Dodge Grand Caravan was a new vehicle that was nothing but a problem from DAY 1! And trying to work with the Chrysler Customer Service Department was worse than trying to get help at a private hospital when you have no insurance!!!!!!

Let me go even one better....on the conversion van, my wife got talked into an Extended Warranty plan called Easy Care....owned by a company named American Protective Corporation....owned by, yep you guessed it FORD MOTOR COMPANY...when we tried to avail ourselves of the warranty on an item that even the dealership said should be covered, we ran head long into a brick wall. We tried 3 times to use the warranty on items that were supposed to be covered and never once were successful.

During that same time I owned 2 cars:

1) 1991 Toyota Camry
2) 2000 Toyota Camry

The only time I ever had to take either car to the dealership for repairs? I was traveling on a side street in Liberty when a smartass kid in his Camaro saw his buddy in the old Wal-mart parking lot....he hit his brakes and gunned his engines into reverse, backing into me at a hig rate of speed....my friends all told me that my car would never be the same. But when the Toyota Dealer repair shop finished with it, you couldn't tell a thing. And that car ran for another 8 years until I traded it in for the 2000 Camry....Never had a bit of trouble with either car...but fell in love with the Toyota Tacoma Quad Cab I own now, so I traded for it.

And just for the record, CrazyHorse....I read this post earlier in the day and decided to stop by the Toyota/Ford Dealership to see just how many in the repair shop were American vs. Foreign....not even close...American.

m:mad:dog
********

You should have gone one further. You should have walked in and asked them how much better the foreign cars were than the American cars.

I also drive a 99 3/4 ton cargo van for work. It's a Ram van. It has about 180,000 miles on it now. I would compare it to a toyota work van, but here is no such thing. Runs like a sewing machine. (knock on wood)

I can appreciate your troubles with your vans though. I guess I'm just lucky. I have no issues with my cars. I have been buying them for over 20 years. I have owned at least 25 cars in my time. Hell I have 5 right now. The only one that doesn't run is the 64 Mustang resto mod.

Logical
05-16-2006, 07:34 PM
I have nothing against people who want to drive American. I find them a little off in taste but hey that is their right.

You want gas mileage and quality you want Asian.

You want performance, quality and luxury you want European

You want to delude yourself into believing you are employing more Americans buy American.:thumb:

recxjake
05-16-2006, 07:47 PM
I have nothing against people who want to drive American. I find them a little off in taste but hey that is their right.

You want gas mileage and quality you want Asian.

You want performance, quality and luxury you want European

You want to delude yourself into believing you are employing more Americans buy American.:thumb:


Yea great quality... Toyota recalls 210,000 land cruisers today...

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060516/UPDATE/605160428/1148/AUTO01

recxjake
05-16-2006, 07:51 PM
Great Quality Toyota.... RECALLS DOUBLED IN 2005

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060516/UPDATE/605160428/1148/AUTO01

recxjake
05-16-2006, 07:53 PM
Oh, Whats this, GM ACES QUALITY...

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/051905/loc_20050519004.shtml

burt
05-16-2006, 07:55 PM
Folks, in the end....we all buy and drive what we have for different reasons..... My 18 years in the car business has seen:

Cavaliers with 237,000 miles
A Tacoma with almost 700,000 miles
Hondas's the same....

yet I have seen a Cavalier that had so many problems that it taxed the owners sanity.

I have seen numerous Toyata's with sludge motors, that weren't worth 1/4 of what they should be...and that was on many with good maintanence...

There are good cars, there are bad cars....in ALL manufacturers....SHIT HAPPENS.

I will NOT begrudge my neighbor his Mercedes....Nor his Camry.

I sell Chevy's. They are great vehicles and great values. ALL vehicles, except a Harley, are bad investments. I drive a 91 Tercel, base 4 speed, with vinyl seats....I spend $57 a month including gas and insurance. My wife drives a late model Ford Expedition. I know....it's not a Chevy, but she wanted this....and she puts out....so she gets what she wants.

Get over yourselves. It is a global industry.

Crazy loves his Mustangs...and I am happy for him. COCO loves his Honda...and I am happy for him....it is ALSO a sweet ride. But I would NEVER spend the dockets they do for MY basic transportation. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT, AND DRIVE FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

I am not wrong....Crazy is not wrong...COCO is not wrong....for a change...and even Domer is not wrong.

recxjake
05-16-2006, 07:58 PM
I have nothing against people who want to drive American. I find them a little off in taste but hey that is their right.

You want gas mileage and quality you want Asian.

You want performance, quality and luxury you want European

You want to delude yourself into believing you are employing more Americans buy American.:thumb:


GM has the most models that get over EPA estimated 30 mpg highway

GM earned these awards from J.D. Power
Eight awards in Initial Quality: the three highest-ranked plants, and five vehicle awards.

morphius
05-16-2006, 08:36 PM
GM has the most models that get over EPA estimated 30 mpg highway

GM earned these awards from J.D. Power
Eight awards in Initial Quality: the three highest-ranked plants, and five vehicle awards.
I take JD's with a grain a salt since the seem to pick a vehicle on first impression and not anything meaurable, well maybe other then the number of Ad's the company took out.

And GM has the most name brands, and the most models, so most over 30 isn't impressive, ALL Toyota cars make 30 or higher.

Mosbonian
05-16-2006, 09:22 PM
Oh, Whats this, GM ACES QUALITY...

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/051905/loc_20050519004.shtml

Interesting how you conveniently left out this gem in that article...

Overall, Toyota, the perennial leader in the quality surveys, earned 10 of the top model segment awards in this year's IQS survey, with the Lexus SC 430 honored as the highest-ranking model for the second consecutive year. Lexus was the top nameplate for the fifth-straight year.

m:mad:dog
*********

Logical
05-16-2006, 09:31 PM
GM has the most models that get over EPA estimated 30 mpg highway

GM earned these awards from J.D. Power
Eight awards in Initial Quality: the three highest-ranked plants, and five vehicle awards.

I don't particularly believe you, nor do I care. Americans are voting with their pocket books and without subsidization by our government that vote is goodbye American tin.

Otter
05-16-2006, 09:35 PM
I work for "the" motorcycle company in the United States as a non-union employee. My companies union is the same as GM and for that reason alone I'll never buy one of thier products.

Even the union personal who came into the job with a positive and ‘go get ’em ’ attitude have been broken down to being overpaid, lazy assholes because of the grief they catch from old timers about rocking the boat and they've managed to spread thier cancer from janitor to CEO.

Those unions are a legalized mafia and the product prices are massively over-inflated because of them and the inherent problems that they bring to the picture far outwiegh any benefits, if there are any at all, they bestow upon the development of the company.

Local whatever the hell it is can kiss my pink knot.

DomerNKC
05-16-2006, 09:53 PM
Great Quality Toyota.... RECALLS DOUBLED IN 2005

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060516/UPDATE/605160428/1148/AUTO01when you hav so few recalls to date, it is easy to double. it would be impossible for gm to double their recalls.

DomerNKC
05-16-2006, 09:57 PM
actually this is gonna end up hurting toyota, the southerners are already pissed about it and they havent even started yetthey will be ok ill bet. it is better to cheer for a toyota at talladega than root for the manufacturer that closed the plant you worked at.

Skip Towne
05-16-2006, 10:16 PM
I'm seeing stories on here of 600 hp and 750 hp engines but no ET's for the quarter mile. Anybody got any they can prove?

Mosbonian
05-16-2006, 10:50 PM
actually this is gonna end up hurting toyota, the southerners are already pissed about it and they havent even started yet

Really? Got anymore of those "quality" links to support this statement?

m:mad:dog
********

CrazyHorse
05-17-2006, 04:43 AM
I work for "the" motorcycle company in the United States as a non-union employee. My companies union is the same as GM and for that reason alone I'll never buy one of thier products.

Even the union personal who came into the job with a positive and ‘go get ’em ’ attitude have been broken down to being overpaid, lazy assholes because of the grief they catch from old timers about rocking the boat and they've managed to spread thier cancer from janitor to CEO.

Those unions are a legalized mafia and the product prices are massively over-inflated because of them and the inherent problems that they bring to the picture far outwiegh any benefits, if there are any at all, they bestow upon the development of the company.

Local whatever the hell it is can kiss my pink knot.

The union made them lazy?

Shouldn't people be held accountable for thier own work ethic?

You should go back and look at why Unions were started in the 1st place. You would see the benefit of them. They started around the 1920s.

Though you may not realize it, you benefit form the Unions even if you dont work under a contract. It's very interesting history.

Though I agree today they should be regulated, I dont believe they are the problem. I believe non Union jobs drive the profits up and the wages down. Our lazyness starts when we as a worker dont control the job market in a country where we have democracy by getting off our asses and voting what's best for us.

I mean, do any of us really want to work for mexican wages in order to stay competetive? If we keep the jobs here, negotiate a fair wage for the employee, and fair profit for the employer we could all live the life the original Unions were designed for.

I say this as an employer who could not afford the Union to move into my shop. But I understand why I cannot afford it. I also believe in a fair wage to make a good living in the best country in the world.

I encourage anyone to look at the history behnd the Union. It's definately a "necessary evil".

The Unions today are not what was intended. Nor should we have let all our job be outsourced.

Just my opinion.

htismaqe
05-17-2006, 05:03 AM
I'll give you this CrazyHorse, you're passionate about it AND you know what you're talking about.

Take a look at the last few posts from rexcjake to see why I participated in this thread in the first place...