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Logical
05-19-2006, 12:58 PM
The problem is not illegal immigration (we need these workers our population is not growing fast enough at the low end of the economic pecking order). The problem is we need to stop giving them free services, not collecting taxes and social security, and therefore allowing them to be a drain on the economy.

This is why my solution is opening the borders for immigration, making a green card easy and a Social Security number goes with it automatically. They remain legal as long as they are reporting in monthly and paying taxes and social security. Get them contributing to our tax base instead of just being a drain on it.

The other thing is we need to heavily penalize companies/large farmers that employ them without paying them at least minimum wage and collecting taxes and social security.

ChiefFripp
05-19-2006, 12:59 PM
So, your whole argument is we need more poor people?

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:01 PM
So, your whole argument is we need more poor people?

No, we need more people willing to work at the minimum wage end of the pay scale. This is not the same thing. A poor person in the US is a middle class or better person in Mexico and many other countries.

jiveturkey
05-19-2006, 01:02 PM
I'd be more than happy to bang a couple of poor broads if you think that it will help.

Katipan
05-19-2006, 01:02 PM
Have every person on welfare take an illegal's job.

All better.

ChiefFripp
05-19-2006, 01:03 PM
Well they'd still be poor in their immediate surroundings, which is what usually matters to a person.

HemiEd
05-19-2006, 01:04 PM
Very Logical, Logical.

Rausch
05-19-2006, 01:05 PM
No, we need more people willing to work at the minimum wage end of the pay scale. This is not the same thing.

Uh, yeah it is.

If you're working a minimum wage job you're poor.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:06 PM
Have every person on welfare take an illegal's job.

All better.I understand the logic but the reality is the expecations of people in the US are such that they would rather be on welfare then to pick fruit etc. It is an expectations issue. What the average US born person feels is unacceptable is quite attractive to many immigrants.

There is also the matter of we literally do not have enough population and we are not growing fast enough to support the jobs being created at the bottom end of the pay scale. This is true for many of the G8 countries, we are not alone in that regard.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:07 PM
Uh, yeah it is.

If you're working a minimum wage job you're poor.Not to these immigrants, we have an inflated view of poor here in the US.

Katipan
05-19-2006, 01:07 PM
So you don't want to pick fruit? No more welfare. Get the **** out and give your shot to someone else.

<3

htismaqe
05-19-2006, 01:08 PM
Like Carlos Mencia said, the solution is to open the borders wide open.

Mexicans hate Mexicans. One morning the family in Cali will wake up, look around them, and decide it's time to flee to Canada.

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:08 PM
The problem is not illegal immigration (we need these workers our population is not growing fast enough at the low end of the economic pecking order). The problem is we need to stop giving them free services, not collecting taxes and social security, and therefore allowing them to be a drain on the economy.

This is why my solution is opening the borders for immigration, making a green card easy and a Social Security number goes with it automatically. They remain legal as long as they are reporting in monthly and paying taxes and social security. Get them contributing to our tax base instead of just being a drain on it.

The other thing is we need to heavily penalize companies/large farmers that employ them without paying them at least minimum wage and collecting taxes and social security.

If illegal immigration isn't the problem, why make it easier for them to immigrate legally?

Anyway, I'm all for making the immigration process faster and less mind-numbing. However, I'm of the opinion that the most illegals DON'T WANT TO BECOME LEGAL residents. They want the benefits of this country without the hassles.

If they did, they would have immigrated legally in the first place.

I truly believe that many of the illegals here now wouldn't sign up if citizenship were offered. Why would they?

jiveturkey
05-19-2006, 01:09 PM
There is also the matter of we literally do not have enough population and we are not growing fast enough to support the jobs being created at the bottom end of the pay scale. This is true for many of the G8 countries, we are not alone in that regard.So you're going to need for me to go to other countries and bang a bunch of poor broads there too?

Do poor people in other countries smell like sour milk or is that an American thing?

Rausch
05-19-2006, 01:10 PM
Not to these immigrants, we have an inflated view of poor here in the US.

No, they have a deflated view of middle class.

Has anyone considered the greed factor? That when you consider inflation the minimum wage is LOWER than it was 20 years ago?

Here's a thought: PAY MORE and people will want to work for you...

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:10 PM
Well they'd still be poor in their immediate surroundings, which is what usually matters to a person.

Evidently you are wrong, as they are living here and working here for less than minimum wage in many, many cases. Some make as little as 2.50/hr under the table and are ecstatic about it. That is often equal or just under their daily wage for jobs in Mexico where approximate 40% of the population earn between 2 and 5 dollar per day (not per hour).

ChiefFripp
05-19-2006, 01:10 PM
I say close the borders and take care of who we have. Having an "inflated view of what poor is" , is a good thing and we should keep it that way. Why the hell would we want to conform to a 3rd world country's standard of 'poor'?

Katipan
05-19-2006, 01:11 PM
But I can buy a lobster dinner in TJ for $5.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:12 PM
So you're going to need for me to go to other countries and bang a bunch of poor broads there too?

Do poor people in other countries smell like sour milk or is that an American thing?ROFL

I don't bang people in other countries, so you will have to ask endo or boozer.

ChiefFripp
05-19-2006, 01:12 PM
Evidently you are wrong, as they are living here and working here for less than minimum wage in many, many cases. Some make as little as 2.50/hr under the table and are ecstatic about it. That is often equal or just under their daily wage for jobs in Mexico where approximate 40% of the population earn between 2 and 5 dollar per day (not per hour).
Alot of those people are here to make some cash and then return to their home countries to live richly. I also know of families where each person takes a turn working in the USA just so they can support their families back home.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:12 PM
But I can buy a lobster dinner in TJ for $5.

Honey, those were crawdads.;)

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:15 PM
Is it true that revenue from illegals working in the US and shipping that cash back to Mexico is Mexico's second largest source of revenue after oil exports?

If so, that's just f*cking nuts.

Katipan
05-19-2006, 01:16 PM
WesternUnion loves them.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:17 PM
If illegal immigration isn't the problem, why make it easier for them to immigrate legally?

Anyway, I'm all for making the immigration process faster and less mind-numbing. However, I'm of the opinion that the most illegals DON'T WANT TO BECOME LEGAL residents. They want the benefits of this country without the hassles.

If they did, they would have immigrated legally in the first place.

I truly believe that many of the illegals here now wouldn't sign up if citizenship were offered. Why would they?

That is just silly, if the process was not the barrier these people who are mind numbingly poor to us, would not be investing family life savings in the thousands of dollars to pay the Coyotes to smuggle them across. If you ever meet a holder of a green card that is from Mexico, ask them how difficult it was to get. Typically they will be from well to do families in Mexico, whose social status allows them to navigate the complexities of the system by hiring lawyers to help them.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:20 PM
Is it true that revenue from illegals working in the US and shipping that cash back to Mexico is Mexico's second largest source of revenue after oil exports?

If so, that's just f*cking nuts.That is probably an exaggeration, but it is a big source of income for a large percentage of their population. My guess is that tourism is actually Mexico's second largest source of revenue. They have many wonderful tourist locations in Southern Mexico and Southern Baja. Cancun etc.

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:23 PM
That is just silly, if the process was not the barrier these people who are mind numbingly poor to us, would not be investing family life savings in the thousands of dollars to pay the Coyotes to smuggle them across. If you ever meet a holder of a green card that is from Mexico, ask them how difficult it was to get. Typically they will be from well to do families in Mexico, whose social status allows them to navigate the complexities of the system by hiring lawyers to help them.

Cool. If that's the logic, I want my local bank to open up the vault for me, becuase it's really hard and takes a long time for me to break into it.

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:24 PM
That is probably an exaggeration, but it is a big source of income for a large percentage of their population. My guess is that tourism is actually Mexico's second largest source of revenue. They have many wonderful tourist locations in Southern Mexico and Southern Baja. Cancun etc.

No, it's correct. Approximately $16 billion last year.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:24 PM
I must be losing my sense of direction. I swear I started this in the lounge. However, I see no indication that it was moved from the Lounge to here. If it was moved that sort of pizzes me off since I have seen many threads on illegal immigration in the lounge recently.

Help me out here did this get moved or did I just make an error and start it over here in DC by accident?

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:26 PM
I must be losing my sense of direction. I swear I started this in the lounge. However, I see no indication that it was moved from the Lounge to here. If it was moved that sort of pizzes me off since I have seen many threads on illegal immigration in the lounge recently.

Help me out here did this get moved or did I just make an error and start it over here in DC by accident?

Those pesky Coyotes smuggled it over here.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:26 PM
Cool. If that's the logic, I want my local bank to open up the vault for me, becuase it's really hard and takes a long time for me to break into it.

I don't even know why your complaining, last time I checked Florida did not even have a common border with Mexico. Are they crossing in Texas and migrating to Florida or something?

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:27 PM
Those pesky Coyotes smuggled it over here.ROFL

Inspector
05-19-2006, 01:29 PM
When they all become citizens will they have the right to vote?

I'm wondering what the outcome of our elections would be like...

I wonder how they would vote if the election impacted Mexico in some way?

I wonder who, ..........who wrote the book of love...

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:35 PM
When they all become citizens will they have the right to vote?

I'm wondering what the outcome of our elections would be like...

I wonder how they would vote if the election impacted Mexico in some way?

I wonder who, ..........who wrote the book of love...

A green card is not the same thing as citizenship. They pay taxes, social security and can work but they do not get voting rights or citizenship. It still takes about 7 years, passing a very difficult test that a huge number of US born citizens could not pass and demonstrating a certain level of proficiency in English to become a citizen. I am always amazed how many people do not know the difference.

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:37 PM
When they all become citizens will they have the right to vote?

I'm wondering what the outcome of our elections would be like...

I wonder how they would vote if the election impacted Mexico in some way?

I wonder who, ..........who wrote the book of love...

Yes, naturalized citizens can vote.

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:39 PM
A green card is not the same thing as citizenship. They pay taxes, social security and can work but they do not get voting rights or citizenship. It still takes about 7 years, passing a very difficult test that a huge number of US born citizens could not pass and demonstrating a certain level of proficiency in English to become a citizen. I am always amazed how many people do not know the difference.

Correct, although you'd be surprised how lax the language requirements are in practice. You're probably correct on the test, though.

You can get them all here: http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/require.htm

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:40 PM
The problem is not illegal immigration (we need these workers our population is not growing fast enough at the low end of the economic pecking order). The problem is we need to stop giving them free services, not collecting taxes and social security, and therefore allowing them to be a drain on the economy.

This is why my solution is opening the borders for immigration, making a green card easy and a Social Security number goes with it automatically. They remain legal as long as they are reporting in monthly and paying taxes and social security. Get them contributing to our tax base instead of just being a drain on it.

The other thing is we need to heavily penalize companies/large farmers that employ them without paying them at least minimum wage and collecting taxes and social security.

Oh and to the mods I have decide to assume the mistake was mine and I started that first thread in the wrong forum and that one of you did not move it. I have seen many other threads on illegal immigration in the lounge so I am starting this one here. No offense intended, I just think this is an issue that affects us all and is not an issue that is divided along party lines.

DJJasonp
05-19-2006, 01:43 PM
You dont live in So-Cal do you????

In theory, you're plan may sound good, but in reality, that would result in such an overpopulation of immigrants in so-cal (where, if you havent checked lately, you need 400,000 for a condo) that wont be able to afford ANY kind of housing....nor would there be any availability of housing for them.

This would result in, for all intents and purposes, refugee camps.

No thanks.

Hydrae
05-19-2006, 01:44 PM
If illegal immigration isn't the problem, why make it easier for them to immigrate legally?

Anyway, I'm all for making the immigration process faster and less mind-numbing. However, I'm of the opinion that the most illegals DON'T WANT TO BECOME LEGAL residents. They want the benefits of this country without the hassles.

If they did, they would have immigrated legally in the first place.

I truly believe that many of the illegals here now wouldn't sign up if citizenship were offered. Why would they?


Have you paid any attention to the stories about Tamba's mother? If there ever was something people on this board should realize now it is how difficult it can be to get here legally. Now she doesn't have the option to walk across the border so that is not an option for her but it helps me understand even more why these poor people looking for a better life would do whatever it took even if it means huge risks to life and limb.

And Jim, this folds right into what I have been saying with regards to our current form of tax revenue collection. A lot of things fall through the cracks when you are relying on proper reporting of Income levels. A federal sales tax would close a lot of those loopholes and allow us to collect taxes from the black market economy (when the profits are spent in the legal marketplace) as well as from those living here illegally.

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:47 PM
If there ever was something people on this board should realize now it is how difficult it can be to get here legally.

You might say that I'm intimately familar with the legal immigration process, and this BB had nothing to do with it.

Count Zarth
05-19-2006, 01:47 PM
California as a whole should become an island.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/6214/cal3vi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

DJJasonp
05-19-2006, 01:48 PM
California as a whole should become an island.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/8273/image0166yl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


That would be even worse....property values would go even higher (if that's possible!)

Hydrae
05-19-2006, 01:51 PM
You might say that I'm intimately familar with the legal immigration process, and this BB had nothing to do with it.


Yes, I know. I am surprised you do not have more empathy for the difficulties these people face. Their decision to proceed the way they do may be wrong but it seems to me that you have no feelings for how to make the process simpler.

As Jim stated, there is a need in this country for these people. So rather than try to shut them out, we need to figure out how to do this in a manner that works for both sides.

Logical
05-19-2006, 01:53 PM
You dont live in So-Cal do you????

In theory, you're plan may sound good, but in reality, that would result in such an overpopulation of immigrants in so-cal (where, if you havent checked lately, you need 400,000 for a condo) that wont be able to afford ANY kind of housing....nor would there be any availability of housing for them.

This would result in, for all intents and purposes, refugee camps.

No thanks.I live in San Diego (actually Poway) is that close enough to be SoCal for you.;)

Actually they live in the hills where they set up tents and actually live better than they would in TJ where many are literally living in cardboard boxes on the sides of the hills.

DJJasonp
05-19-2006, 01:56 PM
I live in San Diego (actually Poway) is that close enough to be SoCal for you.;)

Actually they live in the hills where they set up tents and actually live better than they would in TJ where many are literally living in cardboard boxes on the sides of the hills.

Too funny....I'm less than 20 minutes away from you (Carlsbad)

C'mon...you seriously wouldnt want that in your neighborhood, right?

Crime, pollution, etc etc.....

Donger
05-19-2006, 01:57 PM
Yes, I know. I am surprised you do not have more empathy for the difficulties these people face. Their decision to proceed the way they do may be wrong but it seems to me that you have no feelings for how to make the process simpler.

As Jim stated, there is a need in this country for these people. So rather than try to shut them out, we need to figure out how to do this in a manner that works for both sides.

Why should I have any empathy for illegals? Yes, it was a long hard process, but my family did it BECAUSE we wanted to respect our new country's laws.

There IS a process for them and every other wannabe immigrant; the fact they CHOOSE not to because it's long and hard cannot, IMO, justify their criminal act.

I'm all for making the process to get a green card (i.e, permanent residency) more streamlined but I'm absolutely opposed to shortening the time after being granted a green card and being able to become a citizen.

Logical
05-19-2006, 02:00 PM
Too funny....I'm less than 20 minutes away from you (Carlsbad)

C'mon...you seriously wouldnt want that in your neighborhood, right?

Crime, pollution, etc etc.....

Actually they do live in the hills behind my neighborhood. They are very polite and quite considerate about their trash - though I must admit a stray sack of garbage has on occasion shown up in my trash roll around (some in the midwest are not going to understand this idea).

Hydrae
05-19-2006, 02:01 PM
Why should I have any empathy for illegals? Yes, it was a long hard process, but my family did it BECAUSE we wanted to respect our new country's laws.

There IS a process for them and every other wannabe immigrant; the fact they CHOOSE not to because it's long and hard cannot, IMO, justify their criminal act.

I'm all for making the process to get a green card (i.e, permanent residency) more streamlined but I'm absolutely opposed to shortening the time after being granted a green card and being able to become a citizen.

You have probably already posted it somewhere here before but may I ask where you emigrated from? Also, what skills did your folks possess that helped in the process?

Donger
05-19-2006, 02:02 PM
You have probably already posted it somewhere here before but may I ask where you emigrated from? Also, what skills did your folks possess that helped in the process?

UK. My father was/is a EE.

Hydrae
05-19-2006, 02:04 PM
UK. My father was/is a EE.


So, "civilized" country and good education. How long and hard would they have had to work if they were poor farmers in Central America? Would have even been possible?

Logical
05-19-2006, 02:05 PM
...

And Jim, this folds right into what I have been saying with regards to our current form of tax revenue collection. A lot of things fall through the cracks when you are relying on proper reporting of Income levels. A federal sales tax would close a lot of those loopholes and allow us to collect taxes from the black market economy (when the profits are spent in the legal marketplace) as well as from those living here illegally.

Oh I agree completely, I just have the one huge reservation that I feel that plan will devastate the economy due to its dire impacts on the home ownership market. Our tax structure and the home interest exemption is one of the reasons that by far and away US ownership of single family homes outstrips pretty much every other nation in the world.

Hydrae
05-19-2006, 02:08 PM
I am not completely sold on the "Fair Tax" proposal I posted about before. However, a move away from Income Tax to some form of sales tax would be the best thing to happen to this economy in decades, IMO.

Donger
05-19-2006, 02:08 PM
So, "civilized" country and good education. How long and hard would they have had to work if they were poor farmers in Central America? Would have even been possible?

When we emigrated, there were a specific number visas offered to both skilled and unskilled workers from each country. It depended on how 'friendly' that country was with the US and other things.

In other words, the exact same process that a farm worker from Mexico would go through.

Logical
05-19-2006, 02:09 PM
Why should I have any empathy for illegals? Yes, it was a long hard process, but my family did it BECAUSE we wanted to respect our new country's laws.

There IS a process for them and every other wannabe immigrant; the fact they CHOOSE not to because it's long and hard cannot, IMO, justify their criminal act.

I'm all for making the process to get a green card (i.e, permanent residency) more streamlined but I'm absolutely opposed to shortening the time after being granted a green card and being able to become a citizen.
At least now I understand your perspective. Before I was confused by it, you being in Florida (sorry for the smart ass comment). I do understand why people who have navigated the very difficult system would resent it if the system was changed to make it easy. You will feel that you and your family's significant accomplishment is cheapened because others are able to do it with less effort.

P.S. I agree completely that the process to gain citizenship should not be changed, if anything it should be toughened up slightly (the language proficiency portion).

Hydrae
05-19-2006, 02:10 PM
Can you then help me understand why Tamba's mother has been trying to get here for a decade and it is only now that he has a high profile, high paying job that they truely hope she might make it here? This does not sound like a process that works for an uneducated person who just wants to improve the lifestyle of his family.

Donger
05-19-2006, 02:11 PM
At least now I understand your perspective. Before I was confused by it, you being in Florida (sorry for the smart ass comment). I do understand why people who have navigated the very difficult system would resent it if the system was changed to make it easy. You will feel that you and your family's significant accomplishment is cheapened because others are able to do it with less effort.

Not quite. If they make the legal process more streamline, faster et al, it's still legal. I wouldn't feel any resentment in that case.

Do I resent illegal immigrants? Absolutely. Particularly the ones that make zero effort to assimilate.

Logical
05-19-2006, 02:13 PM
Can you then help me understand why Tamba's mother has been trying to get here for a decade and it is only now that he has a high profile, high paying job that they truely hope she might make it here? This does not sound like a process that works for an uneducated person who just wants to improve the lifestyle of his family.

I read on ESPN that it is partially due to the fact that she is a missionary and does not want to give up the missionary work. It is not all the system that has kept her from coming here.

Idahored
05-19-2006, 02:16 PM
Should be a shoot on site offense. If a migrant does not have the correct paper work just shoot them in the head. One week of this and they will be running back over the border. Problem solved.












ok, just kidding....

Donger
05-19-2006, 02:17 PM
Can you then help me understand why Tamba's mother has been trying to get here for a decade and it is only now that he has a high profile, high paying job that they truely hope she might make it here? This does not sound like a process that works for an uneducated person who just wants to improve the lifestyle of his family.

That's how the goverment works. You'd be amazed how quickly red-tape can be cut with the right contacts.

My mother was stranded in England after a death in the family. Something happened (expired visa) and she couldn't get back in the country. She was there for six months. It was just my poor father and all us boys here in the States, not making any progress. Well, my Dad's boss' boss heard about the situation and he happened to know the US ambassador in the UK. One phone call and she was home the next day.

JBucc
05-19-2006, 02:18 PM
BWHAHAHAHHAHAA

Logical
05-19-2006, 02:29 PM
Would the mod that is moving these and not informing the creator, please be so kind as to send the creator a PM. Also please merge the two threads now, thanks.

Jim

jspchief
05-19-2006, 03:03 PM
No, they have a deflated view of middle class.

Has anyone considered the greed factor? That when you consider inflation the minimum wage is LOWER than it was 20 years ago?

Here's a thought: PAY MORE and people will want to work for you...You can't just raise wages to eliminate poverty. That only serves to decrease the value of the dollar and increase inflation.

That's why Mexican immigrants are so valueable to this country. They come from a life that allows them to appreciate making $6 per hour.

That's also why I think work visas that require extended returns to Mexico in between visas will both fill the US's need for cheap labor, while not allowing the immigrant workers to take their opportunity for granted.

Mr. Laz
05-19-2006, 03:40 PM
No, we need more people willing to work at the minimum wage end of the pay scale. This is not the same thing. A poor person in the US is a middle class or better person in Mexico and many other countries.

hate to break it to ya ... but as soon as they are legal they won't want to work for the cheap pay scale anymore.


illegal = they accept what they can get

Mr. Kotter
05-19-2006, 05:09 PM
I read on ESPN that it is partially due to the fact that she is a missionary and does not want to give up the missionary work. It is not all the system that has kept her from coming here.
Perhaps I'm wrong....my understanding, of what I have reade, is that if she and Tamba's father were legally married, that she could have legally come with the rest of the family 10-11 years ago. They weren't, so she was stuck....waiting.

Logical
05-19-2006, 05:43 PM
hate to break it to ya ... but as soon as they are legal they won't want to work for the cheap pay scale anymore.


illegal = they accept what they can getYou might be right, but if they were no longer elgible for benefits unless they were working and had a social security number why would that be a problem.

Logical
05-19-2006, 05:44 PM
Perhaps I'm wrong....my understanding, of what I have reade, is that if she and Tamba's father were legally married, that she could have legally come with the rest of the family 10-11 years ago. They weren't, so she was stuck....waiting.I have noticed a lack of consistency in the stories about her, either it is a communication issue (quite possible) or bad reporting, also quite possible.

Mr. Laz
05-19-2006, 06:25 PM
You might be right, but if they were no longer eligible for benefits unless they were working and had a social security number why would that be a problem.
i don't know that it would be a problem


but since many people's reason for "allowing" illegal immigration to continue in the first place is because of the low pay and menial labor that would disappear if you legitimize their status in the U.S.

all it does is flood the work force with more people ... causing more unemployment ... causing more of a strain on social services.


1. let them stay illegal (for all the supposed benefits)
2. stop/kick them all out


or some combination of the two



if we legitimized all illegal today ... which would impact the economy more ...

additional taxes from their "menial jobs"?

or

the cost of all the unemployment,medical and social services that they would then get?









.

Logical
05-19-2006, 08:36 PM
....
additional taxes from their "menial jobs"?

or

the cost of all the unemployment,medical and social services that they would then get?

.Hate to burst your bubble but they are already getting the medical and social services, they only part they don't get is the unemployment.

Mr. Laz
05-19-2006, 09:06 PM
Hate to burst your bubble but they are already getting the medical and social services, they only part they don't get is the unemployment.
no biggie ... no real bubble to burst, just talkin' :)


i find it hard to believe that they are getting as much social service money now as illegals as they would as low,low financial level citizens.

Ugly Duck
05-20-2006, 10:49 AM
The other thing is we need to heavily penalize companies/large farmers that employ them without paying them at least minimum wage and collecting taxes and social security.They come here cuz they need money. If we stopped giving them money, they wouldn't come. Throw people in jail & fine them for giving money to illegals, and the trend will begin to reverse.

banyon
05-20-2006, 12:32 PM
The problem is not illegal immigration (we need these workers our population is not growing fast enough at the low end of the economic pecking order). The problem is we need to stop giving them free services, not collecting taxes and social security, and therefore allowing them to be a drain on the economy.

This is why my solution is opening the borders for immigration, making a green card easy and a Social Security number goes with it automatically. They remain legal as long as they are reporting in monthly and paying taxes and social security. Get them contributing to our tax base instead of just being a drain on it.

The other thing is we need to heavily penalize companies/large farmers that employ them without paying them at least minimum wage and collecting taxes and social security.

This might work, if the GWoT didn't exist.

:hmmm:

maybe we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone...

Logical
05-20-2006, 01:05 PM
They come here cuz they need money. If we stopped giving them money, they wouldn't come. Throw people in jail & fine them for giving money to illegals, and the trend will begin to reverse.

The point I am trying to make is I don't think we should want to stop them. Just account for them and make them part of the taxable system. I suppose one could argue we could stop giving aide to Mexico and just count the money they send back there as aide and that would be fairly eqivalent. If the 16 billion figure previously mentioned is correct.

go bowe
05-20-2006, 01:48 PM
while your idea has a certain degree of appeal, jim, there is just one little problem...

under the 14th amendment, equal protection of the laws applies to any "person", not citizen, not legal resident, just person (which contrary to some opinions includes mexican immigrants)...

to withhold government assistance and services based on legal status, or the lack thereof, would be illegal/unconstitutional...

damn founding fathers, anyway... :bandhead:

Logical
05-20-2006, 01:59 PM
while your idea has a certain degree of appeal, jim, there is just one little problem...

under the 14th amendment, equal protection of the laws applies to any "person", not citizen, not legal resident, just person (which contrary to some opinions includes mexican immigrants)...

to withhold government assistance and services based on legal status, or the lack thereof, would be illegal/unconstitutional...

damn founding fathers, anyway... :bandhead:I believe I was suggesting the laws of the land in this regard would need to be changed, if I was not clear then I apologize.

Also the idea is that if they become part of the system the services are not free, they are taxpayers etc.

go bowe
05-20-2006, 02:38 PM
in reality, i'd rate the chances of a constitutional amendment allowing different treatment based on legal residency/citizenship being ratified as about the same as a gay marriage amendment...

neither is going to happen...

but it's still a good idea...

in fact, bringing undocumented workers into the above-ground economy and paying taxes is such a good idea that i'm in favor of creating a path to legal residency and eventual citizenship along the lines of the senate bill...

we can't physically deport millions of people, hell we can't even get somebody deported unless they have been convicted of a felony or are muslim...

the ins (whatever the hell they call it these days) simply doesn't respond to anything else here in the kc region, no matter how solid the information and even when furnished the home and work locations of an illegal alien...

Mr. Laz
05-21-2006, 05:02 PM
in fact, bringing undocumented workers into the above-ground economy and paying taxes is such a good idea that i'm in favor of creating a path to legal residency and eventual citizenship along the lines of the senate bill...
you think bringing the illegals main stream with help or hurt the economy?


i'm not so sure

go bowe
05-22-2006, 01:25 PM
both...

increasing the lower end of the pay scale will increase costs in labor-intensive fields and is people say it would be inflationary in general...

but taxes to defray the enormous health care, education and in some cases welfare cost will be a big boost to the economy, with more coming in and perhaps less going out (workers on the books usually get health insurance, pay taxes for education, and aren't on welfare because they're working)...

i'm very much in favor of a plan along the lines of the senate bill, with a path to working legally and eventually citizenship for all those already here...

amnesty, smanesty...

yeah, illegals are being "rewarded" by amnesty, but imo the net effect on our economy and even society will be so postive overall that we should go ahead and do, regardless of what it's called...

Mr. Laz
05-22-2006, 02:16 PM
both...

increasing the lower end of the pay scale will increase costs in labor-intensive fields and is people say it would be inflationary in general...

but taxes to defray the enormous health care, education and in some cases welfare cost will be a big boost to the economy, with more coming in and perhaps less going out (workers on the books usually get health insurance, pay taxes for education, and aren't on welfare because they're working)...

i'm very much in favor of a plan along the lines of the senate bill, with a path to working legally and eventually citizenship for all those already here...

amnesty, smanesty...

yeah, illegals are being "rewarded" by amnesty, but imo the net effect on our economy and even society will be so postive overall that we should go ahead and do, regardless of what it's called...

fair enough

i still question which side of the "both" weighs heaviest


imo the lower income work force tends to lean more towards burden then benefit though.

penchief
05-22-2006, 08:42 PM
No, they have a deflated view of middle class.

Has anyone considered the greed factor? That when you consider inflation the minimum wage is LOWER than it was 20 years ago?

Here's a thought: PAY MORE and people will want to work for you...

Wow! I agree with you!

The purchase power of the dollar has probably deflated more in the last five years than anytime in my lifetime.

jettio
05-23-2006, 07:56 PM
while your idea has a certain degree of appeal, jim, there is just one little problem...

under the 14th amendment, equal protection of the laws applies to any "person", not citizen, not legal resident, just person (which contrary to some opinions includes mexican immigrants)...

to withhold government assistance and services based on legal status, or the lack thereof, would be illegal/unconstitutional...

damn founding fathers, anyway... :bandhead:

I think alien status is only subject to "rational basis" analysis, which would be less strict than equal protection for protected status.

I remember one decision from the 1970's, plyler v. doe, I think, in which Texas passed a law against children of illegals attending Texas public schools. Justice Brennan's opinion stated it was pretty stupid to not let kids go to school.

Laws can treat aliens differently, but the law that treats them differently has to be reasonable and not silly.

I would have to look up recent decisions on public assistance programs to see if the supreme court has addressed that.