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BigChiefFan
05-25-2006, 11:38 AM
New commander in Chief increases emphasis on defense

May 23, 2006
By Clark Judge
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Clark your opinion!




There has been no Ty Law sighting in Kansas City, but that's OK. From where the team's defensive coordinator sits, the view already looks better.

"We've upgraded the roster," said Gunther Cunningham.


Gunther Cunningham says K.C. is warming up to defense. (Getty Images)
That happens when you spend four of your seven draft picks on defense, including the first and second choices. But it's not an improved roster that could make the biggest difference to Cunningham and the Chiefs D.

It's the coaching staff.

I'm talking specifically about new coach Herman Edwards. OK, you can throw secondary coach David Gibbs in there, too, because Cunningham mentions the guy every other paragraph.

Both are part of a change of direction in Kansas City, with the club tilted more toward its defense than at any time in the last five years -- which is another way of saying more than at any time during the tenure of Dick Vermeil.

Under Vermeil the Chiefs won more than they lost, captured a division title and ranked no lower than second in offense the last three seasons. Offense was Kansas City's trademark, with the club identified by Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson and Trent Green and Tony Gonzalez.

Quick, now: Who was the last great player on Kansas City's defense? I had to think about it, too, and that's no accident. For years the Chiefs were all about offense, a trend that may have ended with the arrival of Edwards.

"No disrespect toward Dick because he did a great job here," said Cunningham, whom Edwards tried to hire to the New York Jets in 2004, "but for a defensive coach, this is like going to heaven. Our conversations are all about personnel. And practice situations. And how to implement schemes. And how to develop schemes and players. As a defensive head coach, he understands."

You don't have to be Herm Edwards to understand what Cunningham's unit means to the success of the Chiefs. A year ago, Kansas City allowed an average of 18.2 points a game over its last seven starts -- five of which it won. But it was the two the Chiefs lost -- a 31-28 decision to Dallas, followed by a 27-17 setback to the Giants -- that rankle fans.

"You throw those out, and people would have a lot different approach to our defense," Cunningham said.

Well, you can't. So they don't. But that's not so bad. In fact, it just might work out in Cunningham's favor, with expectations low for a defense critics generally regard as sub-standard.

But consider a few things before calling the National Guard to defend the Chiefs. First, they produced 31 takeaways last year, and only two AFC clubs had more. Second, they were 4-2 against playoff teams, including 3-1 down the stretch, and ruined San Diego's playoff run with an impressive 20-7 victory on Dec. 24. Third, they allowed fewer points per game than any Chiefs team since 1999.


That's a start. Now factor in new faces -- including first-rounder Tamba Hali and safety Bernard Pollard, a second-round choice -- and that new attitude toward Cunningham's side of the ball, and you have a club that might, just might, gain attention for stopping touchdowns instead of scoring them.



"Herm's attitude on behalf of the defense really speaks to all," said Cunningham. "The defense doesn't feel like wicked stepchildren. They feel like they belong and are part of the game."

That's not hard to imagine. Edwards played defense. He coached defense. He sits in on defensive meetings. He routinely speaks to Cunningham prior to practices. And he accompanies him when Cunningham speaks to members of the personnel department.

In short, he speaks the same language as his defensive coordinator and players.

"He understands what you're doing," said Cunningham, "and that cuts down on the conversation. There are so many wasted hours trying to explain why you feel the way you do and where you want to go with personnel. But you talk to Herm, and he's going to listen."

Then Cunningham might want to talk to Edwards about Law. He's the cornerback the Chiefs tried to sign a year ago, before he priced himself out of their market. Kansas City went on to acquire Patrick Surtain; Edwards added Law in New York; and Law tied for the league lead in interceptions.

Now he's on the market again, with Kansas City, Seattle and Tennessee interested ... but only at the right price. Sound familiar?

The Chiefs have Surtain and former Denver starter Lenny Walls as cornerbacks, but Walls makes me nervous. Cunningham doesn't agree, saying the 6-foot-4 Walls "looked like a cat" during last weekend's minicamp. Nevertheless, given the choice of Walls or Law, whom would you rather have?

"I really liked Ty Law when we talked to him a year ago," said Cunningham, "but it's in Herm's hands and in Carl's (Peterson, the team's president) hands. On the one hand, you'd like to have him; but I also understand the money factor. Everyone in town and in the media expects Carl to pull the trigger, and if it works out ... great. If it doesn't, we're going to keep playing."

If it doesn't work out, Cunningham is unconcerned. That has something to do with the players and more to do with the coaches.

Fish
05-25-2006, 11:44 AM
But it was the two the Chiefs lost -- a 31-28 decision to Dallas, followed by a 27-17 setback to the Giants -- that rankle fans.

"You throw those out, and people would have a lot different approach to our defense," Cunningham said.


Yeah Gun.... you throw out those stats or games that make you look bad.... and you don't look so bad.... brilliant idea there bud..... whatever works for you......

crispystl420
05-25-2006, 11:48 AM
There are so many wasted hours trying to explain why you feel the way you do and where you want to go with personnel. But you talk to Herm, and he's going to listen."
Sounds like gun wasn't getting what he wanted when D.V. was in charge.

keg in kc
05-25-2006, 11:48 AM
Where's the part about sleeves and beards?

bogie
05-25-2006, 11:51 AM
I am thrilled that defense is the focus. It seems more real this year. There's no way we don't improve. Stay healthy and it's going to be a good year.

Chan93lx50
05-25-2006, 11:52 AM
Take note, this is now Herm's D not Cunninghams!

keg in kc
05-25-2006, 11:55 AM
Third, they allowed fewer points per game than any Chiefs team since 1999.I really think that's something that's been overlooked. I know I was surprised a couple of days ago when I was looking up some stats for some thread or another and saw that we only gave up 20.3 ppg. 16th in the league. I thought we were worse than that, for whatever reason.

That's the weird thing about last year. We didn't make the playoffs, and I guess because of that it seemed like more of the same. But the fact was that we were 10-6 and the defense did improve, against the run, against the pass, and obviously they gave up fewer points.

But why doesn't it seem like it was better?

FAX
05-25-2006, 11:55 AM
... Cunningham, whom Edwards tried to hire to the New York Jets in 2004 ...

I didn't know this little factoid. Is this true?

FAX

keg in kc
05-25-2006, 11:56 AM
I didn't know this little factoid. Is this true?Yes. It was reported both at the time, and recently when Herm retained him.

FAX
05-25-2006, 12:00 PM
Yes. It was reported both at the time, and recently when Herm retained him.

Thanks, Mr. keg in kc. Funny that I don't remember that.

What I recall are all the rumors surrounding the question as to whether or not Herm would retain Gunther after he was hired. Since Herm wanted him in 2004, I suppose that speculation was uncalled for.

FAX

keg in kc
05-25-2006, 12:03 PM
I actually don't remember hearing anything (recently) about Herm wanting him (actually, was it '04, or was it '01, when the jets first hired him, I can't even remember) until after he was retained. I'm not sure anyone made the connection.

BigChiefFan
05-25-2006, 12:10 PM
I didn't know this little factoid. Is this true?

FAX
Yea, like Keg said, it happened. If you'll recall Jim Mora Jr. was pushing for him to become the D coordinator in Atlanta, too. It was between, us the Falcons and the Jets.

Chiefs Pantalones
05-25-2006, 12:11 PM
Rah rah, we are fine!!! Rah, rah, Super Bowllllll!!!!!!

Chiefnj
05-25-2006, 12:22 PM
Sounds like gun wasn't getting what he wanted when D.V. was in charge.

Like top draft picks, his wish list of free agents, playcalling responsibility, etc.? Gun got what he wanted and what he asked for.

Gun has mentioned several times this offseason about how he and Herm are on the same page and he doesn't have to explain things in as much detail as when DV was in KC. I can't help but laugh about that. Gun tends to meander a bit in interviews. If his discussions with Vermeil were anything like his interviews I bet Vermeil was often left with the impression that Gunther found his way into Dick's secret Cabernet reserves and was hitting the sauce.

jspchief
05-25-2006, 12:32 PM
"No disrespect toward Dick because he did a great job here," said Cunningham There goes Gun, throwing Vermeil under the bus again. :rolleyes:

jspchief
05-25-2006, 12:35 PM
Yeah Gun.... you throw out those stats or games that make you look bad.... and you don't look so bad.... brilliant idea there bud..... whatever works for you......I don't think it's that unreasonable of a way to look at things. The team was considerably better on defense for most of the games last year. To me, that's going in the right direction.


How many people look at the Buffalo game and claim our offense sucks?

Tribal Warfare
05-25-2006, 12:37 PM
The funniest part about this article is how Herm follows Gun everywhere like dumb tottler, and if Gun says or does something real stupid Herm will be their to make gun sit in the corner for his idiotic antics

Count Alex's Losses
05-25-2006, 01:01 PM
Bla bla bla PropaGUNda bla bla bla.

Scoring averages are nice. How about showing up on the road against a playoff-caliber team? Has Gunther's defense ever done that since he returned?

Chiefs Pantalones
05-25-2006, 01:13 PM
I can't wait until Carl, Gun, and everyone currently on the Chiefs is gone. As much as I don't wanna lose, I wouldn't mind a couple losing seasons with a whole new staff. Rebuild, please, rebuild. And I hope Clark Hunt cares more about winning than Lamar.

jlscorpio
05-25-2006, 01:25 PM
this is gun's last stand...

CupidStunt
05-25-2006, 01:30 PM
There goes Gun, throwing Vermeil under the bus again. :rolleyes:

Tough job but somebody's gotta do it.

Fish
05-25-2006, 03:52 PM
I don't think it's that unreasonable of a way to look at things. The team was considerably better on defense for most of the games last year. To me, that's going in the right direction.


How many people look at the Buffalo game and claim our offense sucks?

I'm not denying that the defense was improved... I just would have much more respect for Gun if he'd come out and say "well we did better, but I misused Bell, and played the CBs too far off the line. That was my fault. My scheme wasn't very well planned, and we had trouble adjusting. A few of our lineman didn't do shit, and I need to motivate them better somehow."

These are just examples, and not really related to the Buffalo game. The point is I want Gun to take responsibility for both the good and the bad and quit redirecting blame on everything. If he's going to be the leader of the D, then he needs to take the blame when the D flat out doesn't get it done. Even if it wasn't his fault... suck it up and find a way to make it work, quit making excuses for it.

I was impressed with the way he came out and said anybody that thinks Bell is soft should come to Arrowhead and tell him face-to-face. That's a step in the right direction. But IMO, he has a ways to go. Hopefully Herm can help him get there.....

Mr. Laz
05-25-2006, 04:03 PM
It's the coaching staff

then why did gunther keep the existing defensive position coaches in the first place ..... and then talk about how happy he was with them?



dude is full of crap



just proves he needs a defensive head coach to hold his hand because he can't handle it by himself.

noa
05-25-2006, 04:33 PM
Bla bla bla PropaGUNda bla bla bla.

Scoring averages are nice. How about showing up on the road against a playoff-caliber team? Has Gunther's defense ever done that since he returned?


Exactly. Our defense played well against San Diego, but we have the advantage of facing them twice a year, and somehow, we have LT's number. Now, when it came to teams we don't face often, but who we absolutely had to beat, our defense just folded. Against Tiki Barber, we couldn't make a tackle and against Dallas, we just let them march down the field and do what they wanted when it counted most. When it was all on the line, we showed our true colors, and they were the colors of a defense that sucked. I don't care that much about PPG or YPG or any other stat as long as we win the important games. As long as our team continues to miss the playoffs because of our defense, I won't believe a word of this propaGUNda.

CoMoChief
05-25-2006, 04:49 PM
then why did gunther keep the existing defensive position coaches in the first place ..... and then talk about how happy he was with them?



dude is full of crap



just proves he needs a defensive head coach to hold his hand because he can't handle it by himself.


When did Gun ever claim that he was happy with the defensive coaches??? Its the fact that DV was extremely loyal to certain coaches that werent on the same page as Gun. Yes Gun did misuse Bell but from what many say, Bell was sort of injured all season. Some people may take that statement with a grain of salt but who knows. All Im saying is that it is alot easier to coach when your assistants are on the same page as you. The defense did considerably get better IMO. This season Gun actually had a say in the defensive coaching personell, which is something he didnt have when DV was here. I wouldnt say he needs a defensive minded HC to hold his hand, because its another thing when the HC doesnt care about the defense at all. I think we can all agree that DV didnt give 2 shits about the defense, hence look at the defensive players we drafted during his era, a ****in joke of a draft.

MOhillbilly
05-25-2006, 04:54 PM
who cares, i want blood by the buckets.

stevieray
05-25-2006, 04:57 PM
I think this defense is gonna kick ass.

CoMoChief
05-25-2006, 05:04 PM
I think this defense is gonna kick ass.


I dont, and it wont until we have some sort of pass rush or inside pressure from the interior line because Sims and Dalton arent getting it done. Im also not sure how this Ron Edwards guy is gonna pan out. Every good defense has good interior line pressure. We dont have that.

stevieray
05-25-2006, 05:06 PM
I dont, and it wont until we have some sort of pass rush or inside pressure from the interior line because Sims and Dalton arent getting it done. Im also not sure how this Ron Edwards guy is gonna pan out. Every good defense has good interior line pressure. We dont have that.


You must be excited about the upcoming season.

CoMoChief
05-25-2006, 05:15 PM
You must be excited about the upcoming season.


Im excited that were going in the right direction with the defense. Im also pissed as hell that we didnt sign Rocky Benard or address the DT position in the draft. IMO that was the 2nd biggest priority we need on defense besides getting rid of Hicks playing time. A good Dline will alot of times cover up a sub-par secondary.

FAX
05-25-2006, 05:18 PM
I think this defense is gonna kick ass.

I agree, Mr. stevieray. At least the potential is there.

1) Improved at DE. We can reasonably anticipate better QB pressure from the outside plus the possibility of our DE's tying up blockers allowing better play from the interior linemen. Either way, better pressure helps the backfield. Da Mamba will strike this year.

2) Improved Health at DT. This was a big problem last year. Even though Siavii is the biggest bust since Anna Nicole Smith, we have some possibilities at that position if everyone can remain healthy.

3) Improved at Linebacker. DJ has a year under his belt, Bell may be healthy and in a scheme that suits his skills, Kawika and Fox coming along nicely from all accounts.

4) Improved at Safety Positions. At least they're suited to the cover-2 scheme. Bell clangers at both SS and FS.

5) Issues at CB. Who knows? But, the cover-2 can make a difference here. We can look forward, hopefully, to fewer heart stopping big plays by the enemy.

6) Defensive Oriented HC. This has to help some, doesn't it?

7) Better Schedule. On paper at least, easier than last year from a Chiefs' defense perspective.

Overall, we have depth issues at several positions and CB could be improved but there's still time to do that. I am 100% optimistic. If the Hermiliar can keep from reigning in the offense, we may be good to go. At least to the playoffs again.

FAX THE HOMER ALL THE WAY

Chiefnj
05-25-2006, 05:25 PM
"I think we can all agree that DV didnt give 2 shits about the defense, hence look at the defensive players we drafted during his era, a ****in joke of a draft."

DJ - starting OLB.
Allen - starting DE.
Sims - starting DT.
Mitchell - starting MLB.
Sapp - nickle back.

Fox, Siavii, Battle, Wilkerson, Hodge - all battling for a backup position.

tk13
05-25-2006, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I was gonna say, that's kinda iffy, Vermeil had some busts but he also had some decent defenders that we drafted... and he even wanted to draft more defense.

When Gun was head coach, we spent a 2nd round pick on William Bartee. That's a winner.

Count Alex's Losses
05-25-2006, 05:32 PM
Yeah, I was gonna say, that's kinda iffy, Vermeil had some busts but he also had some decent defenders that we drafted... and he even wanted to draft more defense.

When Gun was head coach, we spent a 2nd round pick on William Bartee. That's a winner.

I think Gunther and Vermeil are two peas in a pod when it comes to drafting.

tk13
05-25-2006, 05:39 PM
I think Gunther and Vermeil are two peas in a pod when it comes to drafting.
Eh, I wouldn't put Gun in Vermeil's league when it comes to anything. Gun only had two drafts, but they weren't that great. We got Tait, Wesley, and Dante out of his two drafts. But we also took Cloud, Bartee, Stills, and Larry Atkins in the first day too. The one big thing DV's drafts failed at was DT... and that was a killer, but we did pretty well everywhere else. We are loaded with young players, which is the exact opposite of how Gun left the team.

stevieray
05-25-2006, 05:44 PM
Eh, I wouldn't put Gun in Vermeil's league when it comes to anything. Gun only had two drafts, but they weren't that great. We got Tait, Wesley, and Dante out of his two drafts. But we also took Cloud, Bartee, Stills, and Larry Atkins in the first day too. The one big thing DV's drafts failed at was DT... and that was a killer, but we did pretty well everywhere else. We are loaded with young players, which is the exact opposite of how Gun left the team.

He handed off to DV a better team than Marty did to him, IMO..

tk13
05-25-2006, 05:51 PM
He handed off to DV a better team than Marty did to him, IMO..
Ehhh. We had like 21 million dollars in dead money when Gun was fired. That is brutal, like a third to a fourth of our cap space. Within 2 years, Vermeil and Saunders had completely dropped all the dead weight and rebuilt the offense across the board into the top unit in the league without really spending that much money.

It wasn't like most teams where they drafted well then added a couple FA's. They basically took a bunch of castoffs from other teams... Trent coming off a knee injury, nobody thought much of Priest, Roaf was considered washed up, Waters was a converted fullback, Wiegmann was a backup center, Kennison was out of chances, Dante Hall was a converted RB most people gave up on... and within 2 years made them the best offense in the league. Pretty unconventional... really an amazing accomplishment.

Meanwhile Gun gets every single big name on his wish list, a truckload of highly thought of draft picks, and we can't crack the top half of the league in defense.

I think that'll improve with Herm on board... Herm has never really been a part of a bad defense. But then again, neither was Dick Vermeil before he came here. In Philly and St. Louis his defenses were always ahead of his offenses until 99 when their offense took off. So who knows.

CoMoChief
05-25-2006, 06:06 PM
I agree, Mr. stevieray. At least the potential is there.

1) Improved at DE. We can reasonably anticipate better QB pressure from the outside plus the possibility of our DE's tying up blockers allowing better play from the interior linemen. Either way, better pressure helps the backfield. Da Mamba will strike this year.

2) Improved Health at DT. This was a big problem last year. Even though Siavii is the biggest bust since Anna Nicole Smith, we have some possibilities at that position if everyone can remain healthy.

3) Improved at Linebacker. DJ has a year under his belt, Bell may be healthy and in a scheme that suits his skills, Kawika and Fox coming along nicely from all accounts.

4) Improved at Safety Positions. At least they're suited to the cover-2 scheme. Bell clangers at both SS and FS.

5) Issues at CB. Who knows? But, the cover-2 can make a difference here. We can look forward, hopefully, to fewer heart stopping big plays by the enemy.

6) Defensive Oriented HC. This has to help some, doesn't it?

7) Better Schedule. On paper at least, easier than last year from a Chiefs' defense perspective.

Overall, we have depth issues at several positions and CB could be improved but there's still time to do that. I am 100% optimistic. If the Hermiliar can keep from reigning in the offense, we may be good to go. At least to the playoffs again.

FAX THE HOMER ALL THE WAY


1. Who knows how much Hali will play? Hopefully Herm can see that Hicks is a piece of garbage.

2. Improved health at DT would be nice, and Sims is in a contract year, but I still dont see our DTs getting it done on the interior line, the talent just isnt there.

3. Our LB no doubt is the strongest part of this swiss cheese defense. DJ will get better as will Kawika, hopefully Bell is healthy. Remember he did a lot of talking last season about how he's gonna get unleashed out there and how he will kill someone out on the field if someone told him to, then finishes with a whopping 40 tackles. That WILL NOT get it done. Bell is a middle LB not a coverage LB on the outside. He is also not a hybrid DE falcon like Derrick Thomas was by any means.

4. I'm tired of seeing Wesley out of position play after play. Pollard better start with Knight from day one, otherwise this saftey core isnt improved IMO. Knight is slow but he's around the ball. Wesley isnt neither fast or in position, which ususally means disaster for zone coverage schemes.

5. I think anyone can agree that Ty Law will upgrade this position by a very large amount, but I doubt Carl will dish out the dough for him and I understand why he wont. Walls when healthy is a respectable CB, at least better than McBurnon and Warfield. It looks like Battle isnt healed yet and who knows what Hodge or Maxey can do. Right now this is the 2nd biggest area of concern behind the interior line IMO. It does help that this is Herman Edwards specialty.

6. It does help that Herm is a defensive minded coach and that he knows that you win with defense. It was obvious to a blind and deaf man that DV didnt give two shits about defense nor did he know anything about it. My high school HC knew more about defense than he did and he was a former QB at Kansas. Everytime someone asked DV about the defense pr how they needed to get better DV would either:
(A) Work his way around the question in order to prevent him from looking stupid.
(B) Completely avoid the question
(C) Give us some stupid rediculous stat that no one really cares about that really has nothing to do with the question
(D) Intertwine offense with his answer
(E) Try to explain why he plays certain veteran players over younger players with more potential like McCleon (he's been there done that, hes played in 2 superbowls blah blah, or McCleons done everything weve asked him to on defense, or Eric Hicks had 4 QB pressures last game - What the hell is a QB pressure or how do you define what one is and when you mark on down as a stat? This is a pointless stat IMO.

7. It does help that we play the NFL Europe division this season. We should win no less than 11 games.

Overall I think the only way this defense will get better is that the interior line HAS TO improve. Everything in football starts from the trenches. Why do you think we have the best offense in football? Not because Trent Green is the best in the NFL, not because Priest or LJ is the best RB in football, its because our offensive line puts us in the position to make plays, which is the same on defense. The Dline must create pressure and fill gaps to allow the LBs and secondary to make plays, plain and simple. You could have Champ Bailey, Pat Surtain, Troy Polamalu, and Ed Reed all in your secondary and they would all still get passed on with the Dline pressure we have. Everything starts up front.

The Red Sea
05-25-2006, 06:18 PM
Everyone should calm down I noticed that article sounded oddly familiar to me so I went to a diff site & YEP I was right I did hear this same exact rubbish last yr...

New commander in Chief increases emphasis on defense

May 23, 2005 < see?
By Clark Judge
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Clark your opinion!




There has been no Ty Law sighting in Kansas City, but that's OK. From where the team's defensive coordinator sits, the view already looks better.

"We've upgraded the roster," said Gunther Cunningham.


Gunther Cunningham says K.C. is warming up to defense.

Oh hey guys & gals check this out...

New commander in Chief increases emphasis on defense

May 23, 2004
By Clark Judge
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Clark your opinion!




From where the team's defensive coordinator sits, the view already looks better.

"We've upgraded the roster," said Gunther Cunningham.


Gunther Cunningham says K.C. is warming up to defense.


Damn I just KNEW I'd read that Before...a couple of times!

=(

tk13
05-25-2006, 06:21 PM
1. Who knows how much Hali will play? Hopefully Herm can see that Hicks is a piece of garbage.

2. Improved health at DT would be nice, and Sims is in a contract year, but I still dont see our DTs getting it done on the interior line, the talent just isnt there.

3. Our LB no doubt is the strongest part of this swiss cheese defense. DJ will get better as will Kawika, hopefully Bell is healthy. Remember he did a lot of talking last season about how he's gonna get unleashed out there and how he will kill someone out on the field if someone told him to, then finishes with a whopping 40 tackles. That WILL NOT get it done. Bell is a middle LB not a coverage LB on the outside. He is also not a hybrid DE falcon like Derrick Thomas was by any means.

4. I'm tired of seeing Wesley out of position play after play. Pollard better start with Knight from day one, otherwise this saftey core isnt improved IMO. Knight is slow but he's around the ball. Wesley isnt neither fast or in position, which ususally means disaster for zone coverage schemes.

5. I think anyone can agree that Ty Law will upgrade this position by a very large amount, but I doubt Carl will dish out the dough for him and I understand why he wont. Walls when healthy is a respectable CB, at least better than McBurnon and Warfield. It looks like Battle isnt healed yet and who knows what Hodge or Maxey can do. Right now this is the 2nd biggest area of concern behind the interior line IMO. It does help that this is Herman Edwards specialty.

6. It does help that Herm is a defensive minded coach and that he knows that you win with defense. It was obvious to a blind and deaf man that DV didnt give two shits about defense nor did he know anything about it. My high school HC knew more about defense than he did and he was a former QB at Kansas. Everytime someone asked DV about the defense pr how they needed to get better DV would either:
(A) Work his way around the question in order to prevent him from looking stupid.
(B) Completely avoid the question
(C) Give us some stupid rediculous stat that no one really cares about that really has nothing to do with the question
(D) Intertwine offense with his answer
(E) Try to explain why he plays certain veteran players over younger players with more potential like McCleon (he's been there done that, hes played in 2 superbowls blah blah, or McCleons done everything weve asked him to on defense, or Eric Hicks had 4 QB pressures last game - What the hell is a QB pressure or how do you define what one is and when you mark on down as a stat? This is a pointless stat IMO.

7. It does help that we play the NFL Europe division this season. We should win no less than 11 games.

Overall I think the only way this defense will get better is that the interior line HAS TO improve. Everything in football starts from the trenches. Why do you think we have the best offense in football? Not because Trent Green is the best in the NFL, not because Priest or LJ is the best RB in football, its because our offensive line puts us in the position to make plays, which is the same on defense. The Dline must create pressure and fill gaps to allow the LBs and secondary to make plays, plain and simple. You could have Champ Bailey, Pat Surtain, Troy Polamalu, and Ed Reed all in your secondary and they would all still get passed on with the Dline pressure we have. Everything starts up front.
Vermeil went to two Super Bowl's with very good defenses. He was very good with numbers and you would be naive to think he didn't know we needed to play better D. Your first mistake is believing everything he said in his press conferences.

petegz28
05-25-2006, 06:22 PM
Bla bla bla PropaGUNda bla bla bla.

Scoring averages are nice. How about showing up on the road against a playoff-caliber team? Has Gunther's defense ever done that since he returned?


Ok who would do better with Erick Hicks and Ryan Sims?

This team's D started going to pot when we let go of Traylor. We have not had a good D since because we have never had a good DT since him and Saleamua.

pikesome
05-25-2006, 06:24 PM
There goes Gun, throwing Vermeil under the bus again. :rolleyes:

While Vermeil's there maybe he'll fix the Colts O-line.

Mr. Laz
05-25-2006, 06:33 PM
Ok who would do better with Erick Hicks and Ryan Sims?

who would of kept sims and hicks if they couldn't do better?

CoMoChief
05-25-2006, 06:34 PM
Vermeil went to two Super Bowl's with very good defenses. He was very good with numbers and you would be naive to think he didn't know we needed to play better D. Your first mistake is believing everything he said in his press conferences.


DV had much better personell during the 99 season than we ever had the past 5 seasons.

Are you telling me that DV wouldnt give out pointless stats like QB pressures and such? I never said I believed anything he said in press conferences. It was obvious to anyone that he favored underachieving vets instead of promising younger players with more upside.

Mr. Laz
05-25-2006, 06:38 PM
When did Gun ever claim that he was happy with the defensive coaches??? .

when he first got here and people were asking about whether we were keeping all the existing coaches ... and whether he got to pick his coaches etc.

tk13
05-25-2006, 06:44 PM
DV had much better personell during the 99 season than we ever had the past 5 seasons.

Are you telling me that DV wouldnt give out pointless stats like QB pressures and such? I never said I believed anything he said in press conferences. It was obvious to anyone that he favored underachieving vets instead of promising younger players with more upside.
Yeah, that's why we stuck with Ryan Sims and Warfield and Bartee and Kawika long after everybody thought they were busts.

CoMoChief
05-25-2006, 06:48 PM
when he first got here and people were asking about whether we were keeping all the existing coaches ... and whether he got to pick his coaches etc.

I thought he only picked the LBs coach. Not only that but do you really think that he would go out and publicly criticize or comment that he didnt want the coaches that were already here?

tk13
05-25-2006, 06:51 PM
I thought he only picked the LBs coach. Not only that but do you really think that he would go out and publicly criticize or comment that he didnt want the coaches that were already here?
No, but if he was that unhappy about that idea, you think he would have turned down the job, don't you? He had interest from the Jets and Falcons.

Mr. Laz
05-25-2006, 06:57 PM
I thought he only picked the LBs coach. Not only that but do you really think that he would go out and publicly criticize or comment that he didnt want the coaches that were already here?
i don't know who he picked ... i just know he came here and we kept the same coaches and he talked about what a great staff we had.

so....

1. he liked the coaches

2. he wanted the job regardless of whether he like the coaches

3. he let the chiefs force the coaches on him because he's a foot shuffling porter.



none of the options are particularly good

stevieray
05-25-2006, 09:58 PM
Ehhh. We had like 21 million dollars in dead money when Gun was fired. That is brutal, like a third to a fourth of our cap space. Within 2 years, Vermeil and Saunders had completely dropped all the dead weight and rebuilt the offense across the board into the top unit in the league without really spending that much money.

It wasn't like most teams where they drafted well then added a couple FA's. They basically took a bunch of castoffs from other teams... Trent coming off a knee injury, nobody thought much of Priest, Roaf was considered washed up, Waters was a converted fullback, Wiegmann was a backup center, Kennison was out of chances, Dante Hall was a converted RB most people gave up on... and within 2 years made them the best offense in the league. Pretty unconventional... really an amazing accomplishment.

Meanwhile Gun gets every single big name on his wish list, a truckload of highly thought of draft picks, and we can't crack the top half of the league in defense.

I think that'll improve with Herm on board... Herm has never really been a part of a bad defense. But then again, neither was Dick Vermeil before he came here. In Philly and St. Louis his defenses were always ahead of his offenses until 99 when their offense took off. So who knows.

I don't deny what DV did, my point was between Marty and DT's death..gun was handed a team with a lack of identity. also, coupled with the fact ge didn't even have time to get his own coaches.

Gun has run out of excuses. He's got the staff and the players and a defensive minded Head Coach. Do or die.

the Talking Can
05-25-2006, 10:17 PM
well, with DV now run over there is literally no one left for Gunther to throw under the bus...that's something....

beer bacon
05-25-2006, 10:18 PM
well, with DV now run over there is literally no one left for Gunther to trow under the bus...that's something....

I can think of some defensive players I would like for him to at least throw under some sort of automobile.

CoMoChief
05-25-2006, 10:59 PM
No, but if he was that unhappy about that idea, you think he would have turned down the job, don't you? He had interest from the Jets and Falcons.


How do we know his situations there were any better?

Halfcan
05-25-2006, 11:39 PM
All this happy talk, is starting to remind me of the Royals in preseason. "We believe!"

greg63
05-25-2006, 11:41 PM
All this happy talk, is starting to remind me of the Royals in preseason. "We believe!"


Man, there ya go with the BLASPHEMY! :D

J Diddy
05-25-2006, 11:43 PM
All this happy talk, is starting to remind me of the Royals in preseason. "We believe!"

What do you prefer we do?

Halfcan
05-26-2006, 12:02 AM
What do you prefer we do?

I am holding off until I at least see improvement in a preseason game.

We sucked last year in preseason if I remember right.

Count Alex's Losses
05-26-2006, 12:03 AM
I am holding off until I at least see improvement in a preseason game.

We sucked last year in preseason if I remember right.

You remember wrong. Preseason means jack shit.

pikesome
05-26-2006, 12:37 AM
I am holding off until I at least see improvement in a preseason game.

We sucked last year in preseason if I remember right.

Don't we suck every year in the preseason?

dj56dt58
05-26-2006, 01:19 AM
Don't we suck every year in the preseason?
It seems like when we do good in preseason, we start off slow during the reg. season, and when we suck in preseason, we start the reg. season off red hot.

htismaqe
05-26-2006, 08:59 AM
i don't know who he picked ... i just know he came here and we kept the same coaches and he talked about what a great staff we had.

so....

1. he liked the coaches

2. he wanted the job regardless of whether he like the coaches

3. he let the chiefs force the coaches on him because he's a foot shuffling porter.



none of the options are particularly good

Yep.

stevieray
05-26-2006, 09:03 AM
here's a job you love for 300k, but there are some people who you might not like or want to work with...

only a foot shuffling poster would turn that down.

I think that sometimes that Gun has more loyalty to the Chiefs than some of the fans do.

htismaqe
05-26-2006, 09:05 AM
here's a job you love for 300k, but there are some people who you might not like or want to work with...

only a foot shuffling poster would turn that down.

I think that sometimes that Gun has more loyalty to the Chiefs than some of the fans do.

Loyalty is not always a virtue.

Hanging yourself out to dry in a no-win situation is a character flaw...

KCTitus
05-26-2006, 09:06 AM
Just to set the record straight on Gunther and his coaches...he kept Raye, Schottenheimer and Stock himself. Now one can debate and speculate that Carl forced him to keep them, but one of the issues that led to his termination was the fact that he wouldnt make any changes after the 2000 season.

KCTitus
05-26-2006, 09:07 AM
Loyalty is not always a virtue.

Hanging yourself out to dry in a no-win situation is a character flaw...

I think Gunther was the embodiment of the Peter Principle...

stevieray
05-26-2006, 09:11 AM
Loyalty is not always a virtue.

Hanging yourself out to dry in a no-win situation is a character flaw...

Hindsight is 20/20.

Trying to succeed under adverse conditions is a character staple.

BigChiefFan
05-26-2006, 10:57 AM
I think we will be vastly improved on defense this year.

htismaqe
05-26-2006, 11:10 AM
Hindsight is 20/20.

Trying to succeed under adverse conditions is a character staple.

Trying to succeed under adverse conditions, when that adversity is thrust upon you, is a character staple.

Willingly entering a situation like Gunther and accepting adversity, possibly insurmountable adversity, while blaming everyone but yourself for failure, is a signal that you have ego problems.

Rausch
05-26-2006, 12:23 PM
Willingly entering a situation like Gunther and accepting adversity, possibly insurmountable adversity, while blaming everyone but yourself for failure, is a signal that you have ego problems.

Or it's for something you love.

He loved the area and the Team. He finally got his chance to drive his dream car and he wrecked it. I'm sure there's a part of him that felt like he was obligated to try and help fix the thing. He was given a chance to redeem himself in the eyes of KC fans.

I just don't think he knew what he was getting into when he took it.

htismaqe
05-26-2006, 12:25 PM
Or it's for something you love.

He loved the area and the Team. He finally got his chance to drive his dream car and he wrecked it. I'm sure there's a part of him that felt like he was obligated to try and help fix the thing. He was given a chance to redeem himself in the eyes of KC fans.

I just don't think he knew what he was getting into when he took it.

I certainly understand where you're coming from.

I just happen to be the type of person that finds the above pathetic, not admirable.

Rausch
05-26-2006, 12:38 PM
I certainly understand where you're coming from.

I just happen to be the type of person that finds the above pathetic, not admirable.

There's also a pretty good chance we're both projecting a whole lot of $3it onto Gun that might not fit the situation.

:hmmm:

htismaqe
05-26-2006, 12:42 PM
There's also a pretty good chance we're both projecting a whole lot of $3it onto Gun that might not fit the situation.

:hmmm:

Well, we know that Gunther came back here. That's a fact. It's also a fact that Vermeil's assistant coaches, except for Joe Vitt, were retained. And finally, we know from Gunther's own words that those assistant coaches were part of the problem.

Given those three facts, there's not a scenario I can think of where Gunther coming back here was the right thing to do.

Mr. Laz
05-26-2006, 12:58 PM
Well, we know that Gunther came back here. That's a fact. It's also a fact that Vermeil's assistant coaches, except for Joe Vitt, were retained. And finally, we know from Gunther's own words that those assistant coaches were part of the problem.

Given those three facts, there's not a scenario I can think of where Gunther coming back here was the right thing to do.
pretty much...


if Gunther was really that devoted to KC and love the chiefs that much he should of been strong enough to demand that he got the defensive coaches that he wanted.


so either he didn't know .... wasn't strong enough ... didn't care enough.



i just don't see any other real options.


i guess there is senerio that gunther came back and accepted the current position coaches with the idea that sooner or later he would eventually get to choose his own coaches.

but patience/big picture doesn't seem to be a gunther type move imo.

jspchief
05-26-2006, 01:14 PM
How often do coordinators come in and clean house with the staff under them?

I know it happens when replacing a coord that left and took guys with him. But how often does it happen when he's replacing someone fired? Or for that matter, how often is the coord fired, and the other guys retained?

Mr. Laz
05-26-2006, 01:20 PM
How often do coordinators come in and clean house with the staff under them?

I know it happens when replacing a coord that left and took guys with him. But how often does it happen when he's replacing someone fired? Or for that matter, how often is the coord fired, and the other guys retained?
most head coaches and GM's show enough respect to the incoming defensive coordinator that they give them the choice of bringing in their own coaches.



at least i would hope......

tk13
05-26-2006, 01:24 PM
I appreciate Gun's loyalty to the organization, and I think he's improved the defense.

But he walked into this situation... and I don't expect him to say "I suck", just like Vermeil wouldn't call out players in public when they performed poorly.

However, if you are going to start running your mouth to every media outlet like Gun has (how many articles like this have we seen now?) and start blaming all these problems on people who are no longer here I think that's kinda disrespectful. You made that decision to come here, if you didn't like it, that's your fault.

Don't get me wrong, Dick Vermeil made mistakes, he didn't get the job done, but everybody that's still here (Gun, Carl's comments, Gretz's articles) acts like they were just innocent and made no mistakes, and all the problems got kicked out the door with Vermeil. It's a team effort here. I mean if Herm doesn't work out, are they gonna throw him under the bus too?

jspchief
05-26-2006, 01:28 PM
I appreciate Gun's loyalty to the organization, and I think he's improved the defense.

But he walked into this situation... and I don't expect him to say "I suck", just like Vermeil wouldn't call out players in public when they performed poorly.

However, if you are going to start running your mouth to every media outlet like Gun has (how many articles like this have we seen now?) and start blaming all these problems on people who are no longer here I think that's kinda disrespectful. You made that decision to come here, if you didn't like it, that's your fault.

Don't get me wrong, Dick Vermeil made mistakes, he didn't get the job done, but everybody that's still here (Gun, Carl's comments, Gretz's articles) acts like they were just innocent and made no mistakes, and all the problems got kicked out the door with Vermeil. It's a team effort here. I mean if Herm doesn't work out, are they gonna throw him under the bus too?Where does he blame Vermeil?

Seriously. There are a lot of articles where he said he's glad to have a D minded HC, or that it will make his job easier. But I only saw one article that even remotely looked like he was "blaming" anyone for anything.

I think you guys are seeing more in these comments than is neccessarily there.

tk13
05-26-2006, 01:32 PM
Where does he blame Vermeil?

Seriously. There are a lot of articles where he said he's glad to have a D minded HC, or that it will make his job easier. But I only saw one article that even remotely looked like he was "blaming" anyone for anything.

I think you guys are seeing more in these comments than is neccessarily there.
“This can’t be done unless the head coach is on board. There’s no way you can coach a side of the ball by yourself. You have to have to have a staff with a mind-set like you have, but most of all you have to have a head coach that understands.

“I don’t feel like I’m swimming upriver around here anymore. I’m in the fast lane now.”

tk13
05-26-2006, 01:39 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=134072

There's a thread with several people who saw a local KC TV interview after Vermeil left where Gun basically said he didn't talk to the media much because knew he couldn't fix the defense because he didn't have his coaches.

tk13
05-26-2006, 01:44 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=141161&page=3&pp=40

There's a radio show the other day where Gun wasn't happy with Vermeil for things like inflating guy's egos by crediting them for tackles they didn't make. Said he knew his role under DV, but he gave Carl his honest opinions.

Mr. Laz
05-26-2006, 01:44 PM
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=134072

There's a thread with several people who saw a local KC TV interview after Vermeil left where Gun basically said he knew he couldn't fix the defense because he didn't have his coaches.
this was a big discussion when gunther came here too


gunther repeatedly spoke about how he was ok with the positional coaches that he inherited when he arrived.


now, i understand that he was going to be politically correct .... but it still doesn't change the fact that gunther didn't control and/or know the situation.

tk13
05-26-2006, 01:49 PM
Gretz article...

Since he returned to Arrowhead in 2004, Gunther has been trying to tweak the defensive staff. He was never given that opportunity by former head coach Dick Vermeil, who was loyal to a fault with his staff members.

“They were all people that worked hard and they were very bright people,” Cunningham said of the former defensive coaches. “I think there needs to be more. There needs to be more in the relationship between coaches and players, and then coaches and the guy running the defense. There needed to be something more and it wasn’t there.”

***

“We hit a bull’s eye,” Cunningham said of the new staff. “There are very few times in this profession where you can coach with a group of guys that have the same mindset, the same approach, the same passion. It doesn’t happen that often. George Seifert and I tried to coach together for 22 years and never got it done.

“To put together that kind of staff, well, I’ve never seen it done, not once. I hope and I think and I feel like we are there for the first time in my career. We have four of us that are all thinking the same way.”

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/05/12/gretz_why_gunther_is_smiling/

jspchief
05-26-2006, 01:52 PM
The first article you posted was the "one" that I mentioned.

That second interview, I didn't see so can't comment other than to say it was a summarized by III from a summary on the Star board.

Point being, everytime Gun says something about Herm making his job easier (which undoubtedly is true), people start claiming he's taking shots at Vermeil. Hell, in the article in the thread starter, he specifically says "No disrespect toward Dick because he did a great job here"

You guys are so enamored with wanting someone to throw themselves on the sword. It's not going to happen. He's not going to openly admit failure, and even if he did, you'd just tear into him for it.

Like I said in another thread on this topic, none of us know if what Gun is saying is true. It's entirely possible that Vermeil and the assistants were a hindrance. For chrissakes, in two years he took the worst defense in the league and made it respectable. If we only make half those gains again this year, we'll be a top 10 defense.

It's a new era of Chiefs football, and everytime he mentions that he's excited about it, half of Chiefsplanet is there to piss and moan about him not publically cutting his own testicles off.

tk13
05-26-2006, 02:05 PM
I think I pretty clearly said I don't expect him to say "I suck". That would be stupid. He just always has an excuse. In 2004, it was that G-Rob used the players wrong. In 2005, it was that he needed "his" players. This offseason, it's that he didn't have the right coaches. Well, time's up. He's made the defense better, but not good enough to complete the job he was brought in to do. How do we know he's not just paying lip service again? I think Herm can help get the job done, that's why I hoped we'd hire him, but time for excuses is over. It was over for Dick Vermeil, and he's no longer here. Gun's next on the list. He could very easily succeed and we'll all live happily ever after... but we better not be sitting here again next year hearing "Well it just takes 4 years to build a good defense."

FringeNC
05-26-2006, 02:07 PM
It's a little ironic Gun throwing coaches under the bus. Somehow the guy responsible for the NFL's worst D over the last couple years is still here, yet the guys responsible for the #1 O are gone. If anyone should have been thrown under the bus, it should have been Gun, yet DV and Al never did.

And Gun then has the audacity to throw Vermeil under the bus. (Class)ic.

Mr. Laz
05-26-2006, 02:12 PM
I think I pretty clearly said I don't expect him to say "I suck". That would be stupid. He just always has an excuse. In 2004, it was that G-Rob used the players wrong. In 2005, it was that he needed "his" players. This offseason, it's that he didn't have the right coaches. Well, time's up. He's made the defense better, but not good enough to complete the job he was brought in to do. How do we know he's not just paying lip service again? I think Herm can help get the job done, that's why I hoped we'd hire him, but time for excuses is over. It was over for Dick Vermeil, and he's no longer here. Gun's next on the list. He could very easily succeed and we'll all live happily ever after... but we better not be sitting here again next year hearing "Well it just takes 4 years to build a good defense."
i think the key is Herm


Gunther now has a defensive head coach to guide him ......... just like the last time he had a good defense.


has gunther ever been a defensive coord of a good defense without a defensive head coach to supplement?

tk13
05-26-2006, 02:17 PM
i think the key is Herm


Gunther now has a defensive head coach to guide him ......... just like the last time he had a good defense.


has gunther ever been a defensive coord of a good defense without a defensive head coach to supplement?
Not that I can tell... I think his best work came under Marty, and as a LB coach under Jeff Fisher. So that's a good sign. I actually feel good about where the defense is heading, Herm has never really been a part of a bad defense. Gun has definitely brought attitude back to the defense, now we just have to finish the job and do it consistently week in and week out. There were times where we looked great, others not so much (Eagles game, Giants game, etc.) Sure it's only a game or two as Gun said, but really, that one game is the difference between us making the playoffs and Pittsburgh not winning the Super Bowl because of it. That's a pretty big deal.

jspchief
05-26-2006, 02:19 PM
It's a little ironic Gun throwing coaches under the bus. Somehow the guy responsible for the NFL's worst D over the last couple years is still here, yet the guys responsible for the #1 O are gone. If anyone should have been thrown under the bus, it should have been Gun, yet DV and Al never did.

And Gun then has the audacity to throw Vermeil under the bus. (Class)ic.Gun was responsible for the league's worst D the last couple of years? Huh?

He inherited the worst D in 2004, and it didn't get much better. Then in 2005 he took us from 29th in scoring D to 16th.

You honestly believe last year's D was one of the worst in the league?

JakeT
05-26-2006, 02:21 PM
Summary of Gun's return:

1) States the position coaches are fine.
2) Evaluates the roster -- mentions that its going to be good to work with Woods, Hicks, Wesley et all again. Gun claims the talent is there.

Result:
Defense does not improve

1)Gun puts together wish list of players
2)To our knowledge Gun does not try to get rid of any coaches. (Does he have total control of the D?? I don't know)
3)Gun gets most all players on wish list **Note He didn't wish for any Dline help.

Result:
Defense gets slightly better. I'll credit his account he has helped develop some of our linebackers.

1)Now gun mentions that nothing can be done with schemes. You need 1st day draft pick on your team to succeed.
2) He get first day draft picks

Result:????????????????

Gun has talked in circles since he's been here. To me it obvious he can't evaluate talent - he doesn't know what this defense needs as Dline has been negleted since he's came back. First it was the scheme now its the players. If a D is loaded with talented player they better be f**** good.

I have hope this season becuase I think our new D coordinator is really Herm Edwards. Hopefully Gun will be left to do what he is best suited for and what he did in TN -- coach linebackers.

Coogs
05-26-2006, 02:38 PM
Here are three articles from 2004 I dug up. There is some interesting stuff in each one if you look...


http://www.kcchiefs.com/news_article.asp?ID=2IKJUBHPIJHRMCSXZVR8YX6BQS

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/KansasCityStar/2005/05/01/834801?ba=a&bi=1&bp=97


http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/jan/21/cunningham_returns_to/

FringeNC
05-26-2006, 02:52 PM
Gun was responsible for the league's worst D the last couple of years? Huh?

He inherited the worst D in 2004, and it didn't get much better. Then in 2005 he took us from 29th in scoring D to 16th.

You honestly believe last year's D was one of the worst in the league?

Cumulatively, over the two years, the D had the lowest ranking in the league.

And yes, last year we had one of the worst D's in the league. An inept Cowboys team shredded us when it counted the most. Against NE the team was decimated with injuries...against San Diego, the field was almost unplayable...against Cincinnati, they didn't try. Against Buffalo, no team in the league would have done shit on offense with the 60 mph winds. When we played a decent team under normal circumstances, they shredded us for the most part.

stevieray
05-26-2006, 05:08 PM
Trying to succeed under adverse conditions, when that adversity is thrust upon you, is a character staple.

Willingly entering a situation like Gunther and accepting adversity, possibly insurmountable adversity, while blaming everyone but yourself for failure, is a signal that you have ego problems.

It's not blaming if it's a fact. I think gun will be the first to admit they didn't get it done, but even without coaches he wanted, hr did improve the defense. I think it is do or die. He has every reason to succeed, and no reason to fail.

Again, I don't get the logic of why the guy doesn't have the freedom to decide if he wants to coach for the Chiefs when presented the opportunity. I'm sure he's not the first coach to not have the staff and players he desires, yet take the job.

We are talking about coaching in the NFL, there is prolly not one Chief fan here who wouldn't jump at that kind of opportunity.

Besides, he's here, he's the DC. Hashing over his motives from three years ago is living in the past. It is moot at this point., you go with what you got.

htismaqe
05-26-2006, 06:01 PM
The first article you posted was the "one" that I mentioned.

That second interview, I didn't see so can't comment other than to say it was a summarized by III from a summary on the Star board.

Point being, everytime Gun says something about Herm making his job easier (which undoubtedly is true), people start claiming he's taking shots at Vermeil. Hell, in the article in the thread starter, he specifically says "No disrespect toward Dick because he did a great job here"

You guys are so enamored with wanting someone to throw themselves on the sword. It's not going to happen. He's not going to openly admit failure, and even if he did, you'd just tear into him for it.

Like I said in another thread on this topic, none of us know if what Gun is saying is true. It's entirely possible that Vermeil and the assistants were a hindrance. For chrissakes, in two years he took the worst defense in the league and made it respectable. If we only make half those gains again this year, we'll be a top 10 defense.

It's a new era of Chiefs football, and everytime he mentions that he's excited about it, half of Chiefsplanet is there to piss and moan about him not publically cutting his own testicles off.

Actually, I'd just prefer he shut the **** up and do his job. So far, he's done neither.

htismaqe
05-26-2006, 06:05 PM
It's not blaming if it's a fact. I think gun will be the first to admit they didn't get it done, but even without coaches he wanted, hr did improve the defense. I think it is do or die. He has every reason to succeed, and no reason to fail.

Again, I don't get the logic of why the guy doesn't have the freedom to decide if he wants to coach for the Chiefs when presented the opportunity. I'm sure he's not the first coach to not have the staff and players he desires, yet take the job.

We are talking about coaching in the NFL, there is prolly not one Chief fan here who wouldn't jump at that kind of opportunity.

Besides, he's here, he's the DC. Hashing over his motives from three years ago is living in the past. It is moot at this point., you go with what you got.

Sorry, but if I were faced with choosing between New York, Atlanta, or the team that gave me the screwing of my life and was offering to do it a SECOND TIME, I wouldn't choose the Chiefs regardless of how much I loved them.

Sometimes you have to make sacrifices in the name of pride and dignity. Or you can do like Gunther did and prove beyond all doubt that you have no spine...

stevieray
05-26-2006, 06:13 PM
Sorry, but if I were faced with choosing between New York, Atlanta, or the team that gave me the screwing of my life and was offering to do it a SECOND TIME, I wouldn't choose the Chiefs regardless of how much I loved them.

Sometimes you have to make sacrifices in the name of pride and dignity. Or you can do like Gunther did and prove beyond all doubt that you have no spine...


so, what works for you should work for Gun?

FringeNC
05-26-2006, 06:51 PM
Actually, I'd just prefer he shut the **** up and do his job. So far, he's done neither.

...but that seems to be the only thing Gun is good at -- his mouth writing checks his butt can't cash...That's all he has done in his return. Gun is an incredible egomaniac.

jspchief
05-26-2006, 09:23 PM
Cumulatively, over the two years, the D had the lowest ranking in the league.
That's not true, but don't let it keep you from whining.

petegz28
05-26-2006, 11:22 PM
who would of kept sims and hicks if they couldn't do better?


Who said it was Gunther's call and not Carl's to keep them?

Moooo
05-27-2006, 12:29 AM
I have a question...

I know with rookies it isn't expected for them to take a year or two to get the hang of a scheme, depending on position and whatnot. Is it the same when the players are veterans? Were we asking too much to think the new D was going to be in sync?

Last year, for me personally, was shrouded in confusion. We beat the Jets (different QB, starting day morale) to the Eagles (pre TO explosion), to the Bengals (how hard were they trying?). I have no clue how significant or insignificant these games were. I kept waiting for some tell tale sign of greatness or lack thereof, and never found it.

Am I the only one who was nothing but confused the entire year when trying to figure out how good the team was?

Moooo

htismaqe
05-27-2006, 05:22 AM
so, what works for you should work for Gun?

No.

But then again I have pride and dignity.

:D

Coogs
05-27-2006, 09:48 AM
Gretz article...
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since he returned to Arrowhead in 2004, Gunther has been trying to tweak the defensive staff. He was never given that opportunity by former head coach Dick Vermeil, who was loyal to a fault with his staff members.

“They were all people that worked hard and they were very bright people,” Cunningham said of the former defensive coaches. “I think there needs to be more. There needs to be more in the relationship between coaches and players, and then coaches and the guy running the defense. There needed to be something more and it wasn’t there.”

***

“We hit a bull’s eye,” Cunningham said of the new staff. “There are very few times in this profession where you can coach with a group of guys that have the same mindset, the same approach, the same passion. It doesn’t happen that often. George Seifert and I tried to coach together for 22 years and never got it done.

“To put together that kind of staff, well, I’ve never seen it done, not once. I hope and I think and I feel like we are there for the first time in my career. We have four of us that are all thinking the same way.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2006/05/12/gretz_why_gunther_is_smiling/


I'm still calling :BS:


We are changing to the cover two scheme. If that is what Gun truely believed in as the best defense, that is what we would have been doing the last two years regardless of who his assistants were. This is going to be Herms defense that Gun is in charge of running, not Gun's. I'm skeptical that everyone is on the same page, and suspect Gun is going to throw Herm under the bus if the cover two fails.

Mr. Laz
05-27-2006, 10:38 AM
Who said it was Gunther's call and not Carl's to keep them?
carl and gun both were on record as saying so

milkman
05-27-2006, 02:24 PM
I'm still calling :BS:


We are changing to the cover two scheme. If that is what Gun truely believed in as the best defense, that is what we would have been doing the last two years regardless of who his assistants were. This is going to be Herms defense that Gun is in charge of running, not Gun's. I'm skeptical that everyone is on the same page, and suspect Gun is going to throw Herm under the bus if the cover two fails.

Also, if the cover 2 is our base defense, and the team really responds well, and makes huge strides, then Hermie will, and should be, the one receiving the credit.

Gunt should be perceived as the lucky bastartd that finally got someone to tell him how things should be done.

keg in kc
05-27-2006, 02:33 PM
I doubt seriously that Herm is doing the work of a defensive coordinator. At least I hope he's not. He's the head coach, that's enough on his plate.

milkman
05-27-2006, 03:00 PM
I doubt seriously that Herm is doing the work of a defensive coordinator. At least I hope he's not. He's the head coach, that's enough on his plate.

Whether or not he's doing the work, the cover 2 is not Gunt's scheme.

Hermie may not be doing the work, but even the reports from mini camp talk about how involved he is in the defnsive drills.

Gunt will perceived by many as a puppet.
One with long strings perhaps, but a puppet nontheless.

keg in kc
05-27-2006, 03:02 PM
Hermie may not be doing the work, but even the reports from mini camp talk about how involved he is in the defnsive drills.

Gunt will perceived by many as a puppet.
One with long strings perhaps, but a puppet nontheless.That just tells me that he's a defensive coach. I'm sure Marty did the same kind of stuff. Vermeil, on the other hand, focused on the other side of the ball. That doesn't mean he did Saunders' work for him, though. He just dabbled more in what he knew.

milkman
05-27-2006, 03:15 PM
That just tells me that he's a defensive coach. I'm sure Marty did the same kind of stuff. Vermeil, on the other hand, focused on the other side of the ball. That doesn't mean he did Saunders' work for him, though. He just dabbled more in what he knew.

I doubt we'll ever agree on this.

I have always been a guy that thought that Gunt was something less than a competent DC, who was lucky enough to ride Maty's coat tails in his previous stint as DC.

And now, he's goning to get Hermie's coat tails to ride.

On the other side of the ball, I thought that Dick was the beneficiary of two outstanding, and creative, OCs, who he only sometimes had to pull back a little..

keg in kc
05-27-2006, 03:18 PM
Oh, I'm no gun fan, I just think you're spending too much time on the coaches. I think our success or failure has a lot more to do with talent and personnel than it does with who the coaches are, although I do think cleaning out all the defensive assistants may help in terms of development. If there's any way that Herm can be a savior here, it will be from his scouting experience rather than the schemes we run. If.

milkman
05-27-2006, 03:30 PM
Oh, I'm no gun fan, I just think you're spending too much time on the coaches. I think our success or failure has a lot more to do with talent and personnel than it does with who the coaches are, although I do think cleaning out all the defensive assistants may help in terms of development. If there's any way that Herm can be a savior here, it will be from his scouting experience rather than the schemes we run. If.

I agree with the "talent and personel" statement.
But I also think that coaches have the ability to raise the level of performance of the talent he has to work with, and Gunt is not one of those coaches who can, and does,

I look back at the '90s defenses, and and well as they played, I believe that they could have been even better with a competent DC.

FringeNC
05-27-2006, 04:18 PM
Does Gun even have a defensive philosophy? When he was HC, didn't we use a cover-2, or something similar? (What type of coach doesn't use the offensive or defensive system he knows once he gets promoted to head coach?) Can you imagine Mike Martz or Al Saunders running the WCO or Gregg Williams running the cover-2?

Then when he came back in 2004, he was going to bring back his aggressive style of play. Now, back to the cover-2?

It seems OBVIOUS to me that Gun has no D philosophy/scheme, and is just furiously throwing shit on the wall hoping something will stick. (Or that he is no longer in charge of the scheme, and is now just a motivator/tactician.)

Coogs
05-28-2006, 10:07 AM
I doubt seriously that Herm is doing the work of a defensive coordinator. At least I hope he's not. He's the head coach, that's enough on his plate.

It should be apparent that Herm has made it clear to Gun we are going to run the cover two. Which makes it clear Herm did/does not like the defense Gun was running. Which makes you wonder how the returning vets are going to view Gun's leadership. We have not being building towards the cover two for Guns first two years here, now we are. :hmmm:

StcChief
05-28-2006, 12:07 PM
It should be apparent that Herm has made it clear to Gun we are going to run the cover two. Which makes it clear Herm did/does not like the defense Gun was running. Which makes you wonder how the returning vets are going to view Gun's leadership. We have not being building towards the cover two for Guns first two years here, now we are. :hmmm:
Under DV I think Gun was stiffled... Now they talk like they are moving the same way. Optomistic that Gun and other coaches can get players old and new to learn Cover 2 and execute...

Seems apparent that Herm isn't afraid to replace Vets that can't learn/execute and change.

CoMoChief
05-28-2006, 01:51 PM
DV played vets regardless if they produced or not. He had final say on who played and who didn't.

Gun didn't have a coaching staff that he preferred. DV being loyal to his coaching staff like he does his vets. You saw the Dallas game where he exploded at his staff on the sidelines. DV's loyalty KILLED this team, it's hard to argue that.

Now we have a coach this will play the best player at the position. Look at what he did with the rookie out of Northwest Missouri St., Steve Williams. Herm stated that he will play the best player regardless if he's a undrafted FA rookie or he's a 10yr veteran. Anything that helps this swiss cheese defense get better is good to me.

Gun did make this defense better than what it was in 2004. We stopped the run this past season besides the breakdown in the Tiki Barber game. We did something that even the 95 season defense didnt do and thats hold rushers under 100yds for an X amount of games (I cant remember the game total). This defense will get better with a HC thats committed to defense, just like our offense got better when DV and AS arrived.

milkman
05-28-2006, 01:59 PM
DV played vets regardless if they produced or not. He had final say on who played and who didn't.

That's exaxtly right.


That's why Eric Warfield was inactive his frist game back from suspension.

That quote from Dick that Warfield's inactive status for that game was Gunt's decision, and that he (Dick) would rather have activated him was just our imagination.

rad
05-28-2006, 04:02 PM
It should be apparent that Herm has made it clear to Gun we are going to run the cover two. Which makes it clear Herm did/does not like the defense Gun was running. Which makes you wonder how the returning vets are going to view Gun's leadership. We have not being building towards the cover two for Guns first two years here, now we are. :hmmm:

What defense was he building?

rad
05-28-2006, 04:08 PM
Meanwhile, as Herm follows Gun around with a pooper scooper, we have a rookie OC fending for himself.....

Coogs
05-29-2006, 09:38 AM
Meanwhile, as Herm follows Gun around with a pooper scooper, we have a rookie OC fending for himself.....

I believe Herm is fixing the defense for Gun. And from what I have read, the offensive staff is working very hard together (and with Green?) to all be on the same page with pass routes and reads.

Coogs
05-29-2006, 09:42 AM
What defense was he building?

:shrug:

I'm not sure he was building a damn thing. We dabbled in many things, even including some version of a 3-4.

CoMoChief
05-29-2006, 11:55 AM
That's exaxtly right.


That's why Eric Warfield was inactive his frist game back from suspension.

That quote from Dick that Warfield's inactive status for that game was Gunt's decision, and that he (Dick) would rather have activated him was just our imagination.


Then whats the excuse for playing McCleon all the fuggin time. Stevie Wonder could see that the man wasnt capable of playing football in the NFL.

Halfcan
05-29-2006, 12:40 PM
I watched most every game on tape the last few years, usually a week or two after seeing it at Arrowhead or on tv-if a road game. Here is my 2 cents worth.

1. As you slow the tape down, you can see guys give up on the play before it is over (Hicks, Sims, Bell, EW) Don't know if they just ran out of gas or what.

2. Gun-8 times out of 10, seemed to have the right D on the field-Much better than Robinson-where I was like what the hell is he doing having our LB cover their #1 receiver.

3. The huge backbreaking plays came from Bad Tackling-we would have them stopped for a loss, then boom 60 yard run. Our Tackling has been the biggest problem hands down. Many times they are right where they should be, but fail to make a tackle-they just slap at the ball.

4. Guys clearly playing out of position, overrunning plays, or just plain getting fooled (ala the bootleg-repeatedly)

5. Our corners getting burned. Easy one here, Mcleon getting out jumped, EW trying for the INT and getting smoked.

6. Showing the Blitz way too early-the QB just changes the play-usually just a halfback pass for 2 yards that seems to completely trick us for a big game-this could be Guns fault!

7. Another glaring problem-no big push up the middle-QB steps up and buys more time.

8. No defenders in the middle of the field-everyone is either in coverage or chasing the QB- the QB gets past the initial push, he has the whole middle of the field for a 15 yard run-again Guns fault.

9. Conditioning-seemed like by the 4th quarter they were gassed and tired- could be a big reason we could never hold a lead.

10. Mental toughness and attitude-except for a few hard hitters and high energy guys-we are not very scary-teams run over the middle and generally feel we are pushovers. Chad Johnson calls our D out, declaring they would end our winning streak-and not one defender knocked him on his ass.

I could go on, but this generally covers most of it. I would say 80% personel-or lack of talent, and 20% Guns fault.

Like I said-these are just observations based on watching the tapes.

RINGLEADER
05-29-2006, 01:10 PM
Same rah-rah story, different year...

Rausch
05-29-2006, 01:37 PM
Excuse time is over.

Gun has the HC he always wanted.
He's got the assistants he's wanted.
He's got the players he's wanted.
He's in year 3 of his system.

He needs to get it done this year or get going...

ct
06-01-2006, 04:45 PM
football threads get a bump

jidar
06-01-2006, 04:49 PM
The real question is, what does George W Bush think about this?

rad
06-01-2006, 05:58 PM
football threads get a bump

Ditto

rad
06-01-2006, 05:59 PM
The real question is, what does George W Bush think about this?

Take it to DC, zipperhead

keg in kc
06-01-2006, 06:04 PM
The real question is, what does George W Bush think about this?The real question would be if he's capable of thought.

BigChiefFan
06-02-2006, 01:14 PM
Excuse time is over.

Gun has the HC he always wanted.
He's got the assistants he's wanted.
He's got the players he's wanted.
He's in year 3 of his system.

He needs to get it done this year or get going...
I think it all depends on how much they improve, IMO. If we show major strides in improving, he would deserve to stay. I think Gunther has a minimum of this year and next, unless we tank on defense this year.