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jAZ
06-04-2006, 07:47 PM
I guess this is a "Part 2" to this thread (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=141640)...

Intel's Andy Grove is more blunt. "America ... [is going] down the tubes," he says, "and the worst part is nobody knows it. They're all in denial, patting themselves on the back, as the Titanic heads for the iceberg full speed ahead."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13123358/site/newsweek/

How Long Will America Lead the World?

The United States is still the dominant force in technology, innovation, productivity and profits. But Americans don't quite realize how fast the rest of the world is catching up.

By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek

June 12, 2006 issue - Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, held in London on June 22, 1897, was one of the grandest fetes the world has ever seen: 46,000 troops and 11 colonial prime ministers arrived from the four corners of the earth to pay homage to their sovereign. The event was as much a celebration of Victoria's 60 years on the throne as it was of Britain's superpower status. In 1897, Queen Victoria ruled over a quarter of the world's population and a fifth of its territory, all connected by the latest marvel of British technology, the telegraph, and patrolled by the Royal Navy, which was larger than the next two navies put together. "The world took note," says the historian Karl Meyer. The New York Times gushed: "We are a part ... of the Greater Britain which seems so plainly destined to dominate this planet'."

An 8-year-old boy, Arnold Toynbee, who became a great historian, watched the parade while sitting on his uncle's shoulders. "I remember the atmosphere," he later wrote. "It was: well, here we are on the top of the world, and we have arrived at this peak to stay there—forever! There is, of course, a thing called history, but history is something unpleasant that happens to other people."

Well, Americans have replaced Britons atop the world, and we are now worried that history is happening to us. History has arrived in the form of "Three Billion New Capitalists," as Clyde Prestowitz's recent book puts it, people from countries like China, India and the former Soviet Union, which all once scorned the global market economy but are now enthusiastic and increasingly sophisticated participants in it. They are poorer, hungrier and in some cases well trained, and will inevitably compete with Americans and America for a slice of the pie. A Goldman Sachs study concludes that by 2045, China will be the largest economy in the world, replacing the United States.

It is not just writers like Prestowitz who are sounding alarms. Jeffrey Immelt, CEO of GE, reflects on the growing competence and cost advantage of countries like China and even Mexico and says, "It's unclear how many manufacturers will choose to keep their businesses in the United States." Intel's Andy Grove is more blunt. "America ... [is going] down the tubes," he says, "and the worst part is nobody knows it. They're all in denial, patting themselves on the back, as the Titanic heads for the iceberg full speed ahead."

Much of the concern centers on the erosion of science and technology in the U.S., particularly in education. Eight months ago, the national academies of sciences, engineering and medicine came together to put out a report that argued that the "scientific and technical building blocks of our economic leadership are eroding at a time when many nations are gathering strength." President Bush has also jumped onto the competitiveness issue and recently proposed increases in funding certain science programs. (He has not, however, reversed a steady decline in funding for biomedical sciences.) Some speak of these new challenges with an air of fatalism. The national academies' report points out that China and India combined graduate 950,000 engineers every year, compared with 70,000 in America; that for the cost of one chemist or engineer in the U.S. a company could hire five chemists in China or 11 engineers in India; that of the 120 $1 billion-plus chemical plants being built around the world one is in the United States and 50 are in China.

There are some who see the decline of science and technology as part of a larger cultural decay. A country that once adhered to a Puritan ethic of delayed gratification has become one that revels in instant pleasures. We're losing interest in the basics—math, manufacturing, hard work, savings—and becoming a postindustrial society that specializes in consumption and leisure. "More people will graduate in the United States in 2006 with sports-exercise degrees than electrical-engineering degrees," says Immelt. "So, if we want to be the massage capital of the world, we're well on our way."


There is a puzzle in all this, however, which is that these trends and features have been around for a while, and they do not seem to have had an impact—so far at least—on the bottom line, which is GDP growth. Over the past 20 years, America's growth rate has averaged just over 3 percent, a full percentage point higher than that of Germany and France. (Japan averaged 2.3 percent over the same period.) Productivity growth, the elixir of modern economics, has been over 2.5 percent for a decade now, again a full percentage point higher than the European average. In 1980, the United States made up 22 percent of world output; today that has risen to 29 percent. The U.S. is currently ranked the second most competitive economy in the world (by the World Economic Forum), and is first in technology and innovation, first in technological readiness, first in company spending for research and technology and first in the quality of its research institutions. China does not come within 30 countries of the U.S. on any of these points, and India breaks the top 10 on only one count: the availability of scientists and engineers. In virtually every sector that advanced industrial countries participate in, U.S. firms lead the world in productivity and profits.

The situation with regard to higher education is even more dramatic. A new report, "The Future of European Universities," from the London-based Center for European Reform, points out that of the world's 20 top universities, 18 are American. The U.S. invests 2.6 percent of its GDP on higher education, compared with 1.2 percent in Europe and 1.1 percent in Japan. The situation in the sciences is particularly striking. A list of where the world's 1,000 best computer scientists were educated shows that the top 10 schools were all American. Our spending on R&D remains higher than Europe's, and our collaborations between business and educational institutions are unmatched anywhere in the world. America remains by far the most attractive destination for students, taking 30 percent of the total number of foreign students globally. These advantages will not be erased easily because the structure of European and Japanese universities—mostly state-run bureaucracies—is unlikely to change. And while China and India are creating new institutions, it is not that easy to create a world-class university out of whole cloth in a few decades.

(snip)

The best evidence of this lack of fear is that no one is willing to talk about any kind of serious solutions that impose any pain on society. Politicians talk a great deal about competitiveness and propose new programs and initiatives. But the proposals are small potatoes compared with, say, farm subsidies, and no one would ever suggest trimming the latter to dramatically increase spending on the sciences. The great competitive problems that the American economy faces would require strong and sometimes unpleasant medicine. Our entitlement programs are set to bankrupt the country, the health-care system is an expensive time bomb, our savings rate is zero, we are borrowing 80 percent of the world's savings and our national bill for litigation is now larger than for research and development. None of these problems is a deep-seated cultural mark of decay. They are products of government policy. Different policies could easily correct them. But taking such steps means doing something that is hard and unpopular.

The genius of America's success is that the United States is a rich country with many of the attributes of a scrappy, developing society. It is open, flexible and adventurous, often unmindful of history and tradition. Its people work hard, putting in longer hours than those in other rich countries. Much of this has do to with the history and culture of the society. A huge amount of it has to do with immigration, which keeps America constantly renewed by streams of hardworking people, desperate to succeed. Science laboratories in America are more than half filled with foreign students and immigrants. Without them, America's leadership position in the sciences would collapse. That is why America, alone among industrial nations, has been able to do the nearly impossible: renew its power and stay at the top of the game for a century now. We can expand our science programs—and we should—but we will never be able to compete with India and China in the production of engineers. No matter what we do, they will have more, and cheaper, labor. What we can do is take the best features of the America system—openness, innovation, immigration and flexibility—and enhance them, so that they can respond to new challenges by creating new industries, new technologies and new jobs, as we have in the past.

Our greatest danger is that when the American public does begin to get scared, they will try to shut down the very features of the country that have made it so successful. They will want to shut out foreign companies, be less welcoming to immigrants and close themselves off from competition and collaboration. Over the past year there have already been growing paranoia on all these fronts. If we go down this path, we will remain a rich country and a stable one. We will be less troubled by the jarring changes that the new world is pushing forward. But like Britain after Queen Victoria's reign, it will be a future of slow, steady national decline. History will happen to us after all.

(full article at the link above)

recxjake
06-04-2006, 07:50 PM
must be bush's fault

Bwana
06-04-2006, 07:55 PM
Why did you post this here and not here:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=30


dipshit :shake:

JBucc
06-04-2006, 07:56 PM
Till tuesday

jAZ
06-04-2006, 08:00 PM
Why did you post this here and not here:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=30


dipshit :shake:
Because it has nothing to do with partisan politics, just like Part 1 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=141640).

jAZ
06-04-2006, 08:01 PM
must be bush's fault
Actually this is one area Bush has done well on. It's far greater problem than any one party, any one political leader or any one person.

go bowe
06-04-2006, 08:05 PM
must be bush's faultthe wife bought a toyota matrix in january and she just loves the damned thing...

can you imagine that?

recxjake
06-04-2006, 08:06 PM
Actually this is one area Bush has done well on. It's far greater problem than any one party, any one political leader or any one person.

As much I support Bush, and the war agaisnt terror....... we have some serious domestic issues that need to be tackled.

1. the border
2. the deficit
3. the oil supply

etc, etc

go bowe
06-04-2006, 08:07 PM
Because it has nothing to do with partisan politics, just like Part 1 (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=141640).partisan politics?

what's partisan politics got to do with it?

they just don't like YOU jaz, that's what it is...

we should have deneese come over here and start a couple of nonpartisan threads and watch the fireworks... :D :D :D

recxjake
06-04-2006, 08:07 PM
the wife bought a toyota matrix in january and she just loves the damned thing...

can you imagine that?

the toyota matrix and the pontiac vibe are the exact same thing, built in the same plant....

Jenson71
06-04-2006, 08:17 PM
I know a guy who thinks Americas downfall is caused by the mixing of races and ethnicities. Germans (heritages) mixing with Italians, Japanese breeding with Dutch, Spanish with Irish and so on.

It's dilluting the country, he swears.

jAZ
06-04-2006, 08:17 PM
As much I support Bush, and the war agaisnt terror....... we have some serious domestic issues that need to be tackled.

1. the border
2. the deficit
3. the oil supply

etc, etc
Good to know, now take your political talk to the DC. Seriously this thread has nothing to do with Bush or your political issues.

recxjake
06-04-2006, 08:18 PM
Good to know, now take your political talk to the DC. Seriously this thread has nothing to do with Bush or your political issues.


I think anything to do with leading america has somthing to do with the president

jAZ
06-04-2006, 08:19 PM
I think anything to do with leading america has somthing to do with the president
Only if you want to force it in that direction. Now take the Bush talk to DC.

Jenson71
06-04-2006, 08:24 PM
"It is nowhere written that the American empire goes on forever."

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

go bowe
06-04-2006, 08:25 PM
so, gm is starting to wise up and make japanese cars now?

about time... :p :p :p

go bowe
06-04-2006, 08:29 PM
I know a guy who thinks Americas downfall is caused by the mixing of races and ethnicities. Germans (heritages) mixing with Italians, Japanese breeding with Dutch, Spanish with Irish and so on.

It's dilluting the country, he swears.when i was young interracial marriage was illegal in many southern states...

my marriage of nearly 27 years would be invalid if that were still the law...

imo, there are few things prettier than a mixed race girl (halle berry come to mind?)...

Jenson71
06-04-2006, 08:34 PM
Found this, take it knowing I have not checked any of the stats.

America by the numbers
No. 1?

Image by Jane Sherman

by Michael Ventura
February 23, 2005

No concept lies more firmly embedded in our national character than the notion that the USA is "No. 1," "the greatest." Our broadcast media are, in essence, continuous advertisements for the brand name "America Is No. 1." Any office seeker saying otherwise would be committing political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled "un-American." We're an "empire," ain't we? Sure we are. An empire without a manufacturing base. An empire that must borrow $2 billion a day from its competitors in order to function. Yet the delusion is ineradicable. We're No. 1. Well...this is the country you really live in:

* The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
* The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).
* "The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).
* Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!
* "The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).
* "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).
* Nevertheless, Congress cut funds to the National Science Foundation. The agency will issue 1,000 fewer research grants this year (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004).
* Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28 percent last year. Foreign student enrollment on all levels fell for the first time in three decades, but increased greatly in Europe and China. Last year Chinese grad-school graduates in the U.S. dropped 56 percent, Indians 51 percent, South Koreans 28 percent (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). We're not the place to be anymore.
* The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was]...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less.
* "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country? Anyway, that's the company we're keeping.
* Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)
* "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty.
* Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).
Advertisement

* The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).
* The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).
* "Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its workforce in the 1980s.... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1 percent" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.
* "Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies" (The European Dream, p.66). "In a recent survey of the world's 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one were European" (The European Dream, p.69).
* "Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European.... In the chemical industry, the European company BASF is the world's leader, and three of the top six players are European. In engineering and construction, three of the top five companies are European.... The two others are Japanese. Not a single American engineering and construction company is included among the world's top nine competitors. In food and consumer products, Nestlé and Unilever, two European giants, rank first and second, respectively, in the world. In the food and drugstore retail trade, two European companies...are first and second, and European companies make up five of the top ten. Only four U.S. companies are on the list" (The European Dream, p.68).
* The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).
* U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).
* Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million--one in five--unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005).
* Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40 percent of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.
* Sometime in the next 10 years Brazil will probably pass the U.S. as the world's largest agricultural producer. Brazil is now the world's largest exporter of chickens, orange juice, sugar, coffee, and tobacco. Last year, Brazil passed the U.S. as the world's largest beef producer. (Hear that, you poor deluded cowboys?) As a result, while we bear record trade deficits, Brazil boasts a $30 billion trade surplus (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* As of last June, the U.S. imported more food than it exported (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
* Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004). That's more than a third. Way more. If more than a third of Iraqis don't show for their election, no country in the world will think that election legitimate.
* One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house (CNN, Dec. 10, 2004).
* "Americans are now spending more money on gambling than on movies, videos, DVDs, music, and books combined" (The European Dream, p.28).
* "Nearly one out of four Americans [believe] that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32).
* Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004).
* "Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004).
* "The International Association of Chiefs of Police said that cuts by the [Bush] administration in federal aid to local police agencies have left the nation more vulnerable than ever" (USA Today, Nov. 17, 2004).

No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.

The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp

Jenson71
06-04-2006, 08:40 PM
well that pretty much summarizes everything

What should we do, Iowa City?

Logical
06-04-2006, 08:43 PM
Why did you post this here and not here:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=30


dipshit :shake:So does the eventual downfall of our nation as world technical leader have to be blamed on a political reason? I think that all parties in the US are contributing to the negligence of out intellectual striving and growth. We (and I mean all of us) have to strive to overcome this or we too shall fall aside like the British did before us.

Jenson71
06-04-2006, 08:47 PM
I think a change, a reformation, needs to be directed in American politics. Parties are unreliable, representatives, congressmen, presidents, focus more on being re-elected than on accomplishing goals.

Logical
06-04-2006, 08:49 PM
I know a guy who thinks Americas downfall is caused by the mixing of races and ethnicities. Germans (heritages) mixing with Italians, Japanese breeding with Dutch, Spanish with Irish and so on.

It's dilluting the country, he swears.There is a label for your friend.

Dumbass

He is also a racist in nature.

tommykat
06-04-2006, 08:51 PM
Be concerned about China......

BigMeatballDave
06-04-2006, 08:53 PM
* Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005). Did they pose this question to retards? :shake:

BigMeatballDave
06-04-2006, 08:54 PM
Be concerned about China......My employer just stole a bunch of work from China...

Jenson71
06-04-2006, 09:04 PM
There is a label for your friend.

Dumbass

He is also a racist in nature.

Not a friend. I delivered him groceries when I worked at Hy-Vee. He's a Korean vet, and his brain has seen better days, getting a bit senile, and has old views and ways of thinking.

Moon§hiner
06-04-2006, 09:12 PM
I think more posting on the internet during working hours is going to eventually catch up with all these other countries.....don't worry, they will eventually catch up with our lack of productivity. :)

jAZ
06-04-2006, 09:17 PM
I think a change, a reformation, needs to be directed in American politics. Parties are unreliable, representatives, congressmen, presidents, focus more on being re-elected than on accomplishing goals.
I really don't think that this is a problem for politicians to change. We as individuals need to recognize that our nation is vulnerable. There is a pervasive arrogance that says "we are the best" and implicit with that is "...and it will be that way forever".

This is a change that needs to happen from the bottom up, not the top down.

chubychecker
06-04-2006, 09:25 PM
when i was young interracial marriage was illegal in many southern states...

my marriage of nearly 27 years would be invalid if that were still the law...

imo, there are few things prettier than a mixed race girl (halle berry come to mind?)...

I agree do you have any daughters 20 or older. Please post pics if so.
:drool:

Pitt Gorilla
06-04-2006, 09:26 PM
imo, there are few things prettier than a mixed race girl (halle berry come to mind?)...Hard to argue with that. Even ugly people in mixed marriages produce pretty kids.

go bowe
06-04-2006, 09:30 PM
I agree do you have any daughters 20 or older. Please post pics if so.
:drool:no daughters, but tons of nieces from 13 to 30 or so...

and every one of them married or with a steady guy...

sorry...

Bacon Cheeseburger
06-04-2006, 09:33 PM
Is this going to have any effect on the price of beer?

Iowanian
06-04-2006, 09:49 PM
Until people like you Pussify it into extinction.

Earthling
06-04-2006, 10:10 PM
I truley believe that it all starts with the individual, and that start is taking pride in what you do. We, as a nation, seem to have taken the attitude of quantity over quality with little care about the finished product...as long as it sells. We need to get our priorities straightened out and the rest will take care of itself.

Moooo
06-04-2006, 11:53 PM
Our economy is growing increasingly towards a service-based economy. Outsourcing, as bad as it is in a short-term setting will become more and more commonplace as time goes on. To fill in these gaps of unemployment will be jobs that are driven by service rather than goods.

Since Americans get paid some of the highest salaries of anyone in the world, after a point the only jobs available are going to be ones that can't leave, like your dry-cleaners, computer repairmen, teachers, and whatnot.

Moooo

jAZ
06-08-2006, 05:48 PM
http://news.com.com/2061-11128_3-6081774.html?part=rss&tag=6081774&subj=news

What's killing American competitiveness? Too much money, says VC
June 8, 2006 2:36 PM PDT

We're all aware by now that the American educational system is in a state of serious decline, but we face another problem too: Wall Street pays people too much.

Too many U.S. college students are being pulled away into management, hedge funds and other similar jobs where the main function is servicing someone else's legacy, according to David Strohm, general partner at Greylock, at the Venture Capital Investing Conference taking place in San Francisco.

Engineering and science students still seem to have start-up fever. But outside of those departments, which are seeing declining enrollments, most students seem content to work for the man rather than kick off a new venture.

"In the vast majority of companies I look at today, the leaders are Israelis, Indians, Chinese, Finns, Danes. They aren't coming out of the American culture," he said. "Liquidity is a major problem."

An excess of money can kill start-ups too, he added. "When you put $7 million into a company that could have been started with $2 million, you've got problems. The first step they do is hire three to four headhunting firms who hire too many overpriced executives."

Granted, one could say that's a great opinion for David to have. He's likely made quite a bit of money as a venture capitalist for more than two decades.

But think of it this way. When was the last time you met a Wall Street analyst, or a VP of marketing and thought, "You can just tell from his sparkling intelligence that he's worth every penny of that high six figure salary."

Posted by Michael Kanellos

Oregon chief
06-08-2006, 05:57 PM
The idea of the Unitied States of America is the idea that people of all types can live together in freedom and liberty. The U.S. is not just a country but a way of life that the world should aspire to achieve. Respect for one another and the chance to pursue happiness. The U.S. will be around for a very long time.

DaFace
06-08-2006, 06:13 PM
The book "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman paints a pretty dim future in terms of America's domination of the world. Basically, we have had all the opportunities available to us for years, so our education system has become lazy. Students simply aren't motivated to challenge themselves as much. Meanwhile, other countries like China have been working their asses off just to try and survive. Now that they are getting opportunities via the worldwide availability and the internet, there are tons of extremely knowledgeable and extremely motivated individuals coming out of those countries. Chances are, our reign as the dominant nation of the world will be over in a decade or less.

Psyko Tek
06-08-2006, 06:47 PM
I truley believe that it all starts with the individual, and that start is taking pride in what you do. We, as a nation, seem to have taken the attitude of quantity over quality with little care about the finished product...as long as it sells. We need to get our priorities straightened out and the rest will take care of itself.

I worked in manufacturing for a while made 1/25 million dollar machines for semiconductor industry. One boss I had followed the MCmanufacturing philosophy, want everyone to be like every other one, even ifg they are crap at least they are fast and consistant....

I was young and believed back then, called him out in a meeting...
these art custom jobs made by skilled craftsmen and some are gonna be shit, and some are gonna be ****in' art and what you proposing is bullshit we gotta strive to be the best or why play?

I was transfered to a different dept inside a month

Athis
06-08-2006, 07:46 PM
Tony Blair said you can tell a countries worth by how many people want to get in versus wanting to get out.

Rain Man
06-08-2006, 07:50 PM
The book "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman paints a pretty dim future in terms of America's domination of the world. Basically, we have had all the opportunities available to us for years, so our education system has become lazy. Students simply aren't motivated to challenge themselves as much. Meanwhile, other countries like China have been working their asses off just to try and survive. Now that they are getting opportunities via the worldwide availability and the internet, there are tons of extremely knowledgeable and extremely motivated individuals coming out of those countries. Chances are, our reign as the dominant nation of the world will be over in a decade or less.

The flip side of that, though, is that the most ambitious of the third-worlders come here, giving us both a short-term advantage and a long-term edge. It's not so much about the people, it's about the political, social, and physical infrastructure that allows people to thrive. I'm not sure that China has that infrastructure.

JBucc
06-08-2006, 07:54 PM
hi

Mark M
06-08-2006, 07:59 PM
I truley believe that it all starts with the individual, and that start is taking pride in what you do. We, as a nation, seem to have taken the attitude of quantity over quality with little care about the finished product...as long as it sells. We need to get our priorities straightened out and the rest will take care of itself.

That is one of the best posts I've ever read ...

:clap:

The problem, of course, is that most people see their jobs as just that: just a job. I know I'm guilty of it on occassion.

And part of the reason for that, IMHO, is that the only ones who seem to get ahead are the ass kissers, the executives, and the owners (which would include the stock holders as well). Those who just show up and work their asses off get squat.

Sure, there are still success stories -- someone going from nothing to something (not necessarily butt-ass rich; just successful). But those successes are becoming fewer and farther between, and the stories aren't all that interesting.

And part of the reason for that (again, IMHO) is our "get it now!" mentality. No one has the patience to stick with something and work toward its success. They want to be millionaires overnight, with little or no effort. Whether its sports, the lottery, the Internet boom, etc., it seems folks are far more interested in the wealth than the satisfaction of earning it.

MM
~~:shrug:

jAZ
06-08-2006, 08:01 PM
The flip side of that, though, is that the most ambitious of the third-worlders come here, giving us both a short-term advantage and a long-term edge. It's not so much about the people, it's about the political, social, and physical infrastructure that allows people to thrive. I'm not sure that China has that infrastructure.
Keep in mind that they don't need the infrastructure density that we have, because their population is so huge. They can complete with only 15-20% of their population being similarly advanced.

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 08:06 PM
I know a guy who thinks Americas downfall is caused by the mixing of races and ethnicities. Germans (heritages) mixing with Italians, Japanese breeding with Dutch, Spanish with Irish and so on.

It's dilluting the country, he swears.


Yeah, I heard of him too. Didn't he die in a bunker about 60 years ago?

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 08:08 PM
seriously though what do you think we are leading in?

Not manufacturing
Not education
Not the health of its society

Leading in oil consumption
Leading in corruption
Leading in the distruction of the planet

Then why don't you move to where it's better? While your there at your new and improved school you can learn to spell destruction

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 08:09 PM
"It is nowhere written that the American empire goes on forever."

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/

We don't nor have we ever had an empire. We have a constitutional democracy.

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 08:16 PM
The idea of the Unitied States of America is the idea that people of all types can live together in freedom and liberty. The U.S. is not just a country but a way of life that the world should aspire to achieve. Respect for one another and the chance to pursue happiness. The U.S. will be around for a very long time.


Very well said. Nice to hear from someone else who really gets it. America is the only country in the world founded on an idea instead of ethnicity. We bring in others from around the world who think like this and guess what, we prosper.

Do we have a problem with a certain part of our country obsessed with infintile and useless pursuits? Yes, and they dilute the numbers. The facts are the American Economy is the strongest in the world and our military and it's technology is the best in the world. Why? Because of how we were founded.

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 08:19 PM
The book "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman paints a pretty dim future in terms of America's domination of the world. Basically, we have had all the opportunities available to us for years, so our education system has become lazy. Students simply aren't motivated to challenge themselves as much. Meanwhile, other countries like China have been working their asses off just to try and survive. Now that they are getting opportunities via the worldwide availability and the internet, there are tons of extremely knowledgeable and extremely motivated individuals coming out of those countries. Chances are, our reign as the dominant nation of the world will be over in a decade or less.


Ok wiseguy, one question, who invented the Internet? We did.

This is the same crap that people spout whenever they feel we are not getting loved internationally. Check out some of the Newsweek covers from the 70's. Only then the issues were The Soviets and Western Europe and fear of the Japanese.

PS - Thomas Friedman is a great writer and Journalist but he's also a guilt ridden, bed wetting liberal who feels bad that the US is a world leader

Mark M
06-08-2006, 08:36 PM
America is the only country in the world founded on an idea instead of ethnicity.

really? How many blacks helped write the Constitution? Any Jews? A few Native Americans in there? How's about Muslims? Any Women?

Don't get me wrong -- the theory our country was founded on is the best ever. But the practice has never matched that ideal -- not in our history, and certainly not in our present.

All we can do is work hard and try to ensure that it does come to fruition in our future.

MM
~~:thumb:

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 08:36 PM
The flip side of that, though, is that the most ambitious of the third-worlders come here, giving us both a short-term advantage and a long-term edge. It's not so much about the people, it's about the political, social, and physical infrastructure that allows people to thrive. I'm not sure that China has that infrastructure.
Rain Man, good point. I've been to China on business 18 times since 1991 to this year. The Chinese have a chance to have a great country which would be good for the world. There not even close to having a good government, legal system or human rights. These are HUGE drawbacks for them. I believe that China will one day become a true democracy and that will be a great thing for humanity (afterall there are 1.4 billion of them) but until then they will suffer from rampant greed, political corruption on a huge scale and huge social changes as the haves and have nots square off in the next 10 to 20 years.

Right now a successful chinese guy under 40 would say he's happy that he can make money and provide quality of life for his family. He knows he's not free but it beats food rationing that he had when he was a kid. Now just wait until this guys kid grows up playing nintendo, having nice things and being highly educated. That generation will make changes. The big question is will it lead to a civil war or will it be a peaceful change to democracy and re-unification with Taiwan. Time will tell.

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 08:42 PM
really? How many blacks helped write the Constitution? Any Jews? A few Native Americans in there? How's about Muslims? Any Women?

Don't get me wrong -- the theory our country was founded on is the best ever. But the practice has never matched that ideal -- not in our history, and certainly not in our present.

All we can do is work hard and try to ensure that it does come to fruition in our future.

MM
~~:thumb:

I agree the practice doesn't meet the ideal. That's what's so amazing about our founding documents. They had the vision and idealism to write these words and to risk their life to do it. These ideals are still our goals though. Being American is a way of thought it has nothing to do with being Muslim, jewish, black, Indian or a man or a woman. The fact that not all of these people helped write the constitution doesn't matter. Everyone is equal and everyone who has the talent gets a chance to add to the country in their own way. We're the only nation in the world whose even close to meeting these ideals

Mark M
06-08-2006, 08:54 PM
Everyone is equal and everyone who has the talent gets a chance to add to the country in their own way.

Well, unless you're gay. Then you're only equal up to a point.

And a woman, since they only make about $.76 for every $1 a man makes.

But other than those and a few other examples ... yeah. You're right.

We're the only nation in the world whose even close to meeting these ideals.
Actually, England, Australia, and the Netherlands also come pretty close.

Again, don't get me wrong -- I DO love this country (if I didn't I'd move somewhere else ... trust me).

But there are some in this country (including many in positions of power) who don;t believe that everyone is equal. They may say it, but their actions sure as **** don't match what they say.

MM
~~:shrug:

thepascalblaze
06-08-2006, 09:01 PM
recxjake makes a point worthy of thought and discussion. "leads the world " in what?

Maybe more importantly, to where is the U.S. leading the world?

I, for one, love the U.S. It is my duty as a citizen to take notice of what is happening. Statistics are one source of info, though the selective distribution and downright distortion of them is problematic. It is difficult to work full time or more, raise a family and seek out sources of corporate news and the fragmented statistics they commonly distribute, and successfully build an accurate picture of what is happening on a global economic scale.

When Clinton was caught with his pants down, I didn't see a mass exodus of people who complained. They did what a good American should. They organized, vocalized, and voted... that is what makes this a great country.

It is not without problems, clearly. But we are leading many people into a pseudo-free market. The real question I see as the most important is this. Is a world economy that bases growth on increasing consumption sustainable? On a sphere, A limited physical shape, it is not... but how long can we use the engine of increasing consumption, which leads to rapid technological advance, to an economic advantage. By "economic advantage" here, I mean an advance in technology that can create a curve to a sustainable economy with an engine based in creative use of renewable resources, still leading to technological advances.

When do we need to start the turn to sustainability?

The major political/economic question of the future is possibly revolving around a world debate that is corporate/anticorporate in nature,

I suggest all interested watch the documentary "The Corporation." It is loaded with history of the concept of corporations and, though the subject matter is inherently dry, the producers make it enertaining enough to watch all the way through.

DaFace
06-08-2006, 09:07 PM
The flip side of that, though, is that the most ambitious of the third-worlders come here, giving us both a short-term advantage and a long-term edge. It's not so much about the people, it's about the political, social, and physical infrastructure that allows people to thrive. I'm not sure that China has that infrastructure.

I don't argue that we won't see a lot of benefit from the sudden inflow of knowledge workers into the world's workforce. It's not so much about who is the "best off;" we'll all be better as more knowledge is put into society. However, I do think we'll see the playing field being leveled significantly in terms of who controlls things overall. I'm certainly no expert, but the simple strength in numbers gives China and India a pretty big advantage if they can get their infrastructures worked out. As virtual environments emerge as being as important if not more so than physical environments, they may have a significant advantage.

DaFace
06-08-2006, 09:10 PM
Ok wiseguy, one question, who invented the Internet? We did.

This is the same crap that people spout whenever they feel we are not getting loved internationally. Check out some of the Newsweek covers from the 70's. Only then the issues were The Soviets and Western Europe and fear of the Japanese.

PS - Thomas Friedman is a great writer and Journalist but he's also a guilt ridden, bed wetting liberal who feels bad that the US is a world leader

I don't think that the origin of an invention has anything to do with who controls it, actually. Indian outsourcing is the direct result of the overinvestment of American companies during the internet boom. Just because we're the ones that created it doesn't mean we reap the largest benefits.

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 09:14 PM
Well, unless you're gay. Then you're only equal up to a point.

I've got a gay Uncle and he's making money hand over fist in Miami with his life partner guy and no one is beating the shite out of him for it. Yeah, he can't get formally married but that's a different argument and has no bearing on his life.

And a woman, since they only make about $.76 for every $1 a man makes.

People should make their money based on ability not on gender. However, there are some exceptions. Women tend to get pregnant and then leave the workforce. So if your a big dog company looking to groom a high end exec. officer for the long term then you might think twice about losing years of training and money based on an fact of biology. That's the truth.

But other than those and a few other examples ... yeah. You're right.


Actually, England, Australia, and the Netherlands also come pretty close.

I've done business in all of these countries. First their populations are tiny and their economies are relatively small. But if you want to compare their governmental systems then you'd be better off comparing them to Canada. Socialism can only work in small countries and that's what your seeing in England and Der Nederlands. Australia has a model more like our own.

Again, don't get me wrong -- I DO love this country (if I didn't I'd move somewhere else ... trust me).

But there are some in this country (including many in positions of power) who don;t believe that everyone is equal. They may say it, but their actions sure as **** don't match what they say.

If you want to be more specific great. I'll just tell you if your talking about politicians then you need to vote them out of office.

MM
~~:shrug:

ChiefaRoo
06-08-2006, 09:24 PM
I don't think that the origin of an invention has anything to do with who controls it, actually. Indian outsourcing is the direct result of the overinvestment of American companies during the internet boom. Just because we're the ones that created it doesn't mean we reap the largest benefits.

Sure we do. How can you say that? Do you ever leave Emporia or do you just stare at that giant silo coors can all day? Let me help you out with ONE example - - - Microsoft. Without the Internet who would need all that software for their X-box 360? That company didn't even exist until the 70's. I could go on and on forever with the advantages of having America invent the Internet and the Trillions it's put into our economy. The techologies that are just around the corner that will be started here in the USA will be astounding in the next 20 years. Medicine alone will be worth billions upon billions.

DaFace
06-08-2006, 09:38 PM
Sure we do. How can you say that? Do you ever leave Emporia or do you just stare at that giant silo coors can all day? Let me help you out with ONE example - - - Microsoft. Without the Internet who would need all that software for their X-box 360? That company didn't even exist until the 70's. I could go on and on forever with the advantages of having America invent the Internet and the Trillions it's put into our economy. The techologies that are just around the corner that will be started here in the USA will be astounding in the next 20 years. Medicine alone will be worth billions upon billions.

You're still talking short-term benefits here. I won't argue that we haven't seen the most benefit from the internet so far. However, to assume that just because we came up with it we will always have control over it is shortsighted at best and foolhardy at worst. All I can say is that if you are planning strategy for a company based on the assumption that we'll always be the best, you've got a rough ride coming.

P.S. I have no idea what Coors can silo you're referring to.

Psyko Tek
06-08-2006, 11:05 PM
HOW we really beat communisum...

cable TV and rock music

the same will americaniaze china

our weapons now our video games and the internet.

China has put the clamps on google but they have good hackers and so do we...


can't stop the signal

Rausch
06-08-2006, 11:38 PM
HOW we really beat communisum...

cable TV and rock music

the same will americaniaze china

our weapons now our video games and the internet.

China has put the clamps on google but they have good hackers and so do we...


can't stop the signal

Or capitalism. We could outspend the Ruskies, and very soon China will be able to outspend us as well as outnumber us.

I'm willing to bet America will have committed suicide long before the Chinese land in Cali...

greg63
06-08-2006, 11:47 PM
Or capitalism. We could outspend the Ruskies, and very soon China will be able to outspend us as well as outnumber us.

I'm willing to bet America will have committed suicide long before the Chinese land in Cali...

Calling Dr. Jack...

Bacon Cheeseburger
06-08-2006, 11:50 PM
Are we dead yet?

J Diddy
06-09-2006, 12:02 AM
Fug this.

To say that we are doomed is to say that our children have no hope of success. I simply will not agree to this, or any lifetime, that 1 person can not change the world.


I have the solution, he's 4 and sleeping on my lap right now and he has the ability to do so.

Psyko Tek
06-09-2006, 12:03 AM
Or capitalism. We could outspend the Ruskies, and very soon China will be able to outspend us as well as outnumber us.

I'm willing to bet America will have committed suicide long before the Chinese land in Cali...


only if we keep sending manufacturing .....


this country was great when we where making thunderbirds

J Diddy
06-09-2006, 12:11 AM
only if we keep sending manufacturing .....


this country was great when we where making thunderbirds


This country still is great.

ChiefaRoo
06-09-2006, 01:49 PM
You're still talking short-term benefits here. I won't argue that we haven't seen the most benefit from the internet so far. However, to assume that just because we came up with it we will always have control over it is shortsighted at best and foolhardy at worst. All I can say is that if you are planning strategy for a company based on the assumption that we'll always be the best, you've got a rough ride coming.

P.S. I have no idea what Coors can silo you're referring to.

The silo beer can? - It's on 35 on the South side of the City as you come up from the South. I thinks it's an Emporia landmark.

I think we really agree. I've not said and don't think anyone should plan on things staying the same in the business world. Things change and that's why taking the next step in a given technology is important. But again, America's greatest strength is adapting and changing. We do it all the time in all parts of our culture and in the business world. More importantly we invent the future and the rest of the world follows whatever new reality that comes along. However, lets be clear you can't argue that since we invented the Internet it hasn't spawned incredible wealth for America. Therefore the real question is where is the next new business opportunities based of a tech. breakthroughs coming from? No country can touch our technology combined with our economy and backed by the rule of law.

Facts

1) The US economy is the largest in the world and is in no danger of being overtaken (Japan is second) It'll take the Chinese 40 years to catch us assuming they continue to develop and they won't unless they become a democracy with the rule of law as their foundation.

2) The US military is the strongest and most technologically advanced in the world (because of our technology lead in business) for those of you who think we can't build anything worth a shite (like cars, tv's etc) why is it we can build Stealth bombers, Space Vehichles, Intergrated Battle Nets, UAV's, UCAVS, excellent commercial airplances etc? This is technology at it's highest level. The reason we don't build TV, cars, steel production etc. as well has to do with the legacy structure of those businesses.

3)We live in a fantastic part of the world with abundant resources, available land and stable neighbors

4)Way of life - Our constitutional Republic and rule of law is as good of a way of living as their is in the world. In fact our constitution and the three branches of Govt. structure is the most evolved form of Govt. on the planet. NOTE: Even though we are not the oldest country in the world we are the oldest democracy in the world.

The USA is not a perfect country but in the end we are the greatest country that has EVER existed on this planet.

Who's with me?

ChiefaRoo
06-09-2006, 01:50 PM
Fug this.

To say that we are doomed is to say that our children have no hope of success. I simply will not agree to this, or any lifetime, that 1 person can not change the world.


I have the solution, he's 4 and sleeping on my lap right now and he has the ability to do so.

RIGHT!

ChiefaRoo
06-09-2006, 01:54 PM
only if we keep sending manufacturing .....


this country was great when we where making thunderbirds


Ok so now we make software (Microsoft) and distribute consumer goods (Wal-Mart) all over the world.

FYI - Wal-Mart is the largest company in the World and was started by a good ole' boy living in the hills of Arkansas. Wal-Mart's annual revenue is greater than many countries .

Thunderbirds are obsolete. You sound like the guy who lamented the passing of the buggy because it put the buggy whip companies out of business.

StcChief
06-09-2006, 02:54 PM
making thunderbirds


Bob Segar... whoops wrong thread