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BWillie
06-05-2006, 12:55 PM
Trent Green, long renowned as the most underrated QB in the league. What if, and this is purely hypothetical, he won a Super Bowl one of the next two years and continued to put up numbers similar to any of his last seven seasons? Would he be a Hall of Famer? I vote yes. And I'll tell you why.

Trent Green currently is the only active QB's and might be the only QB ever to have over a 90 QB rating 4 years in a row. He is the model of consistency. Trent Green is probably going to break Len Dawsons records in about half the time it took Dawson. Trent has a career QB Rating of 88.3. Lets take a look at the current QB Ratings of the 23 Hall of Fame QB's.

Terry Bradshaw 70.9 Bobby Layne 66.4
George Blanda 60.6 Dan Marino 86.4
Len Dawson 82.6 Warren Moon 80.9
John Elway 79.9 Joe Namath 65.7
Dan Fouts 80.2 Bart Star 80.5
Otto Grahm 86.0 Roger Staubach 83.4
Bob Griese 77.1 Fran Tarkenten 80.4
Sonny Jorgenson 82.6 YA Tittle 73.6
Johnny Unitas 78.2 Norm Van Brocklin 75.1
Bob Waterfield 61.6

This means that Trent Green has a better QB Rating than every Hall of Famer except Joe Montana and Steve Young. That's pretty good company don't you think? Some may say, oh well Trent hasn't played very long, and that definitely works to his disadvantage but what about Bob Waterfield? He played seven full seasons, and with 2 more under Trents belt that should surely be enough.

Alot of these players played in a different era, but you can't tell me Joe Namath is deserving of his stature? To me, it is New York East Coast bias. This is a guy, who threw 173 TDS/220 INT in his career. Only has 9 full seasons under his belt, who's career rating is a pityful 65.7. People place too much emphasis on teams success sometimes. If you put Joe Montana on last years worst team, they are still gonna suck. There are 3 parts of football Defense, Offense, & Special teams. They aren't really connected at all except emotionally. It's not Trent Greens fault the defense has sucked ass for so long, what is he supposed to do? Get out there and play linebacker. The only thing besides not getting press that hurts Green's chances are his lack of a super bowl and only having seven real seasons under his belt.

So I pose you this final question, if Trent Green wins a Superbowl, or even just puts up 3 more years of great offensive success and numbers. Do you think he is a hall of famer or has a chance to become one?

KC Jones
06-05-2006, 12:58 PM
So I pose you this final question, if Trent Green wins a Superbowl, or even just puts up 3 more years of great offensive success and numbers. Do you think he is a hall of famer or has a chance to become one?

No chance unless he wins more than 2 SBs and gets 4+ pro bowls in the next few years.

dtebbe
06-05-2006, 01:01 PM
Until DT gets in the HOF why even worry about any other Chief. If THE Chief can't get in, why would A Chief?

DT

alpha_omega
06-05-2006, 01:02 PM
Interesting...do you have the number of total yards passed and games won for all the names on your comparison list. (Those might tell even more)

IMO...Green needs to have 2 more good seasons AND win 2 SB's to even have a shot.

CupidStunt
06-05-2006, 01:05 PM
Break it down simply: Green has 25,000 yards, 150 TDs and only 92 INTs. He also has no playoff wins.

200 TDs, 32,000+ yards and a ring would put him in strong contention, yes.

The problem with that is that, in the next two years (which is the timeframe I see Green playing -- at least, playing effectively), Green will need to gain another 7000 yards and 50 TDs; 3500 yards per season with 25 TDs - achievable but not likely. And last, but certainly not least - he'd actually have to do something in the postseason, which seems optimistic at the very least.

jspchief
06-05-2006, 01:06 PM
I think 1 Superbowl win, and one other season with a few play-off wins would make him a guy you could argue for.

DMAC
06-05-2006, 01:07 PM
He could make it with 1 or 2 playoff wins, but he will be 70 when he would get in.

JBucc
06-05-2006, 01:10 PM
A lot of stuff would have to go right for him to get in the HOF.

greg63
06-05-2006, 01:11 PM
His numbers are impressive; unfortunately, as we all know, it's going to take more than just numbers to get in.


Nice stat work, btw.

FringeNC
06-05-2006, 01:12 PM
Green is good, but passer rankings are a lot higher than they used to be. The standards for a QB will be a lot higher than for the old guys...

Now if Green plays three more years, puts up around 100 rating for those three years, and the Chiefs have playoff success....

kcfanXIII
06-05-2006, 01:17 PM
when i saw the thread title, i was like no way, but after reading this, i can see you have a good argument working. needs a SB victory, along with another pro bowl year. keep in mind peyton is the only one the past five seasons that has kept up with him stat wise.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 01:19 PM
Green has a ways to go...

He is not in the Top 50 Passing Yards All Time.
He is #49 in the Top 50 Passing TDs All Time.
He is #46 in the Top 50 Completions All Time.
He is not in the Top 50 Attempts All Time.

Then, you have all the other things mentioned previously.

Green definitely has good #'s for only being a starter in 7 seasons, but he's far from HOF worthy and even 1 SB won't get him there in my opinion.

Count Zarth
06-05-2006, 01:22 PM
I think he'd need 2 SBs.

Fouts got in on stats alone. He is the Trent Green of his era. Unfortunately, there's no way Green gets 40,000 yards, so he needs a ring or two.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 01:22 PM
Troy Aikman made it. He had an amazing all-around cast with great receivers. Why Troy Aikman made it and Michael Irvin hasn't so far is beyond me. Lets pro-rate Green on two more years here. I'll even pro-rate 2002 which is Trents worst season out of the last 4. Give him two more years and Trents stats would be as follow compared to Aikman..

Trent
33,000+ yards
202 TDS/118 INT
Career QB Rating 90

Aikman
32,942 yards
165 TDS/90 INT
Career QB Rating 81.6

I'm not saying Trent is deserving now, but I think if he gets a superbowl and plays decent up to his standards then based on what I see of the current hall of famers. I think he should at least be considered.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-05-2006, 01:27 PM
We can talk about this after the Kansas City Chiefs win a SuperBowl.

Chief Henry
06-05-2006, 01:30 PM
I think 1 Superbowl win, and one other season with a few play-off wins would make him a guy you could argue for.


I think he need to win one superbowl and have a couple more good seasons of ratings and he'll get in.

ct
06-05-2006, 01:30 PM
As you say, a SB victory and 2 more mad-stat year, then yes he's worthy of discussion. I still bet it would be a damn hard sell though.

IMO, 3 more years of high offensive success, but no SB victory, and he's got no shot...none.

Rain Man
06-05-2006, 01:30 PM
Gotta agree with many others. He got too late a start to be a serious candidate. A couple of Super Bowls and another 15,000 yards, and maybe he would be considered.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 01:30 PM
Trent Green, long renowned as the most underrated QB in the league. What if, and this is purely hypothetical, he won a Super Bowl one of the next two years and continued to put up numbers similar to any of his last seven seasons? Would he be a Hall of Famer? I vote yes. And I'll tell you why.

Trent Green currently is the only active QB's and might be the only QB ever to have over a 90 QB rating 4 years in a row. He is the model of consistency. Trent Green is probably going to break Len Dawsons records in about half the time it took Dawson. Trent has a career QB Rating of 88.3. Lets take a look at the current QB Ratings of the 23 Hall of Fame QB's.

Terry Bradshaw 70.9 Bobby Layne 66.4
George Blanda 60.6 Dan Marino 86.4
Len Dawson 82.6 Warren Moon 80.9
John Elway 79.9 Joe Namath 65.7
Dan Fouts 80.2 Bart Star 80.5
Otto Grahm 86.0 Roger Staubach 83.4
Bob Griese 77.1 Fran Tarkenten 80.4
Sonny Jorgenson 82.6 YA Tittle 73.6
Johnny Unitas 78.2 Norm Van Brocklin 75.1
Bob Waterfield 61.6

This means that Trent Green has a better QB Rating than every Hall of Famer except Joe Montana and Steve Young. That's pretty good company don't you think? Some may say, oh well Trent hasn't played very long, and that definitely works to his disadvantage but what about Bob Waterfield? He played seven full seasons, and with 2 more under Trents belt that should surely be enough.

Alot of these players played in a different era, but you can't tell me Joe Namath is deserving of his stature? To me, it is New York East Coast bias. This is a guy, who threw 173 TDS/220 INT in his career. Only has 9 full seasons under his belt, who's career rating is a pityful 65.7. People place too much emphasis on teams success sometimes. If you put Joe Montana on last years worst team, they are still gonna suck. There are 3 parts of football Defense, Offense, & Special teams. They aren't really connected at all except emotionally. It's not Trent Greens fault the defense has sucked ass for so long, what is he supposed to do? Get out there and play linebacker. The only thing besides not getting press that hurts Green's chances are his lack of a super bowl and only having seven real seasons under his belt.

So I pose you this final question, if Trent Green wins a Superbowl, or even just puts up 3 more years of great offensive success and numbers. Do you think he is a hall of famer or has a chance to become one?



You're trying to put Trent Green in the HOF based on QB ratings?

That's a new one.

chagrin
06-05-2006, 01:33 PM
You're trying to put Trent Green in the HOF based on QB ratings?

That's a new one.

that didn't take long

jspchief
06-05-2006, 01:33 PM
You're trying to put Trent Green in the HOF based on QB ratings?

That's a new one.Yea, just ask Steve Young.

chagrin
06-05-2006, 01:34 PM
You're trying to put Trent Green in the HOF based on QB ratings?

That's a new one.

And give the guy a break:
BWillie007
Joined: Apr 2006

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 01:34 PM
This is what CP has needed, a football discussion that everyone can wrap their arms around.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 01:35 PM
Enh, Young had a ring he earned as the starter and better stats...

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1985 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1985.htm) tam (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/tam1985.htm) | 5 | 72 138 52.2 935 6.8 3 8 | 40 233 1 |
| 1986 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1986.htm) tam (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/tam1986.htm) | 14 | 195 363 53.7 2282 6.3 8 13 | 74 425 5 |
| 1987 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1987.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1987.htm) | 8 | 37 69 53.6 570 8.3 10 0 | 26 190 1 |
| 1988 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1988.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1988.htm) | 11 | 54 101 53.5 680 6.7 3 3 | 27 184 1 |
| 1989 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1989.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1989.htm) | 10 | 64 92 69.6 1001 10.9 8 3 | 38 126 2 |
| 1990 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1990.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1990.htm) | 6 | 38 62 61.3 427 6.9 2 0 | 15 159 0 |
| 1991 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1991.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1991.htm) | 11 | 180 279 64.5 2517 9.0 17 8 | 66 415 4 |
| 1992 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1992.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1992.htm) | 16 | 268 402 66.7 3465 8.6 25 7 | 76 537 4 |
| 1993 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1993.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1993.htm) | 16 | 314 462 68.0 4023 8.7 29 16 | 69 407 2 |
| 1994 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1994.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1994.htm) | 16 | 324 461 70.3 3969 8.6 35 10 | 58 293 7 |
| 1995 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1995.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1995.htm) | 11 (http://www.profootballreference.com/games/YounSt00.htm#1995) | 299 447 66.9 3200 7.2 20 11 | 50 250 3 |
| 1996 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1996.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1996.htm) | 12 (http://www.profootballreference.com/games/YounSt00.htm#1996) | 214 316 67.7 2410 7.6 14 6 | 52 310 4 |
| 1997 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1997.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1997.htm) | 15 (http://www.profootballreference.com/games/YounSt00.htm#1997) | 241 356 67.7 3029 8.5 19 6 | 50 199 3 |
| 1998 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1998.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1998.htm) | 15 (http://www.profootballreference.com/games/YounSt00.htm#1998) | 322 517 62.3 4170 8.1 36 12 | 70 454 6 |
| 1999 (http://www.profootballreference.com/years/1999.htm) sfo (http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/sfo1999.htm) | 3 (http://www.profootballreference.com/games/YounSt00.htm#1999) | 45 84 53.6 446 5.3 3 4 | 11 57 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 169 | 2667 4149 64.3 33124 8.0 232 107 | 722 4239 43 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 01:36 PM
I don't think Aikman or Kelliy should have been 1st ballot guys, not that it means anything now. Eventually, Irvin will get it... sadly.

epitome1170
06-05-2006, 01:37 PM
As far as HOFers go, I like the thought that I heard from Dan Patrick a few weeks ago on his radio show: if you say his name and you automatically say yes, then he should be in... otherwise no.

With that being said, I had to think about it for a while and then read your stats to even think of justifying it, so I would say no.

chagrin
06-05-2006, 01:38 PM
I don't think Aikman or Kelliy should have been 1st ballot guys, not that it means anything now. Eventually, Irvin will get it... sadly.

Are you serious? I don't mean to be antagonistic, but any QB with 3 friggin rings is a 1st ballot HOF'er

Brock
06-05-2006, 01:39 PM
Uh.....no. NFW

jspchief
06-05-2006, 01:40 PM
Enh, Young had a ring he earned as the starter and better stats...

Well, Just about everyone here has mentioned that at least one SB win would be necessary.

But other than that, Young and Green are very similar statistically. And IMO, Young's QB rating was what put him over the edge in regards to the HoF.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 01:40 PM
Young has the best QB rating by far. Montana is up there. Both of which are deserving but their situation helped alot too. Success does not always mean that the QB is god. If the Bears would of won the Super Bowl with Kyle Orton last year, people would think he was god. Conversely, a guy that has great receivers and a great system is going to have a better chance. It's all relative. I just think too much of how we grade a QB is their success. I have no problem with Elway being in there, because he brought his team back from deficits, but when people try to tell me Kyle Orton was doing a good job for the Bears last year because their defense was bad ass. I just had to laugh.

chagrin
06-05-2006, 01:41 PM
Well, Just about everyone here has mentioned that at least one SB win would be necessary.

But other than that, Young and Green are very similar statistically. And IMO, Young's QB rating was what put him over the edge in regards to the HoF.

And John Madden/Chris Berman slobbering all over him

MOhillbilly
06-05-2006, 01:43 PM
For Green to make the HOF he would have to win a superbowl as a huge underdog(4-1 or more) against a HOF D and QB.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 01:43 PM
Yea, just ask Steve Young.


Steve Young didn't get into the HOF based on his QB ratings. I can't even believe you're trying to pass it off like he did.

Count Zarth
06-05-2006, 01:44 PM
Steve Young didn't get into the HOF based on his QB ratings. I can't even believe you're trying to pass it off like he did.

He got into the HOF because of one Super Bowl?

BWillie
06-05-2006, 01:48 PM
He got into the HOF because of one Super Bowl?

I think the question is if Steve Young's TEAM didn't win a super bowl would he still be in the Hall of Fame. And I have to say, I still think he should.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 01:49 PM
He got into the HOF because of one Super Bowl?


He got into the Superbowl for a conglomeration of factors, one of them being the story surrounding his rise to greatness. Nobody can point to a single aspect about Steve Young and say "that right there is what did it." It's the entire tapestry taken in full context that makes him a HOF quarterback.

I think that Trent Green might need to start by winning at least one playoff game before anyone starts any talk about his HOF ballot.

Count Zarth
06-05-2006, 01:51 PM
Nobody can point to a single aspect about Steve Young and say "that right there is what did it."

Really? He was widely regarded as a playoff choke-artist before he won a Super Bowl against a team of paper lions.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 01:51 PM
Also I want to note that the passing game has changed so much in the last decade that saying that someone is doing better than another great quarterback 20-30 years ago is meaningless.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 01:54 PM
Really? He was widely regarded as a playoff choke-artist before he won a Super Bowl against a team of paper lions.


Maybe if you were old enough to appreciate what he meant for the league in the time he was playing for the Niners, you'd be able to get a grasp of this. There's no one in the league right now that his story could be parallelled against.

Trent Green no more deserves to go into the Hall of Fame than Mark Rypien does.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 01:57 PM
Are you serious? I don't mean to be antagonistic, but any QB with 3 friggin rings is a 1st ballot HOF'er

Ok, so let's say for discussion purposes that while it is HIGHLY unlikely... Plummer and the Broncos win 3 straight SB's.

Plummer is a HOF'er?

So, you put Brady in already as well.

Count Zarth
06-05-2006, 01:57 PM
Maybe if you were old enough to appreciate what he meant for the league in the time he was playing for the Niners, you'd be able to get a grasp of this. There's no one in the league right now that his story could be parallelled against.


So Steve Young deserved the HOF because of the USFL and the Buccaneers?

I don't see what being a backup in the late 80's did for his career.

Brock
06-05-2006, 01:59 PM
Ok, so let's say for discussion purposes that while it is HIGHLY unlikely... Plummer and the Broncos win 3 straight SB's.

Plummer is a HOF'er?

So, you put Brady in already as well.

It depends on whether they won because Plummer played extremely well. Yeah, again, highly unlikely.

And yes, Brady will most likely be enshrined.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 01:59 PM
Imagine this, what if the Chiefs had the defense of the Bears and won 3 Super Bowls in the last 4 years. Trent Green would be renowned as the best QB of the game, even if he produced exactly has he had the last 4 years with a shitty defense. I try to preach to people this, but they think there is some divine connection with offense and defense.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:01 PM
It depends on whether they won because Plummer played extremely well. Yeah, again, highly unlikely.

And yes, Brady will most likely be enshrined.

He didn't suggest that any QB that played well with 3 rings would be a no-brainer... he just said, any QB with 3 rings. So, Dilfer needs just 2 more. Heh.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 02:02 PM
So Steve Young deserved the HOF because of the USFL and the Buccaneers?

I don't see what being a backup in the late 80's did for his career.


Like I said... I don't think there's anything that I can say that is going to give you an appreciation for the impact the Steve Young story made on the league at the time that he was making an impact. If you were 10 years older, you might be able to grasp it better. His HOF bid wasn't about stats, and certainly not about his QB rating.

It was an underdog story for the ages... Perhaps the most significant underdog stories the NFL has ever seen.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:02 PM
Imagine this, what if the Chiefs had the defense of the Bears and won 3 Super Bowls in the last 4 years. Trent Green would be renowned as the best QB of the game, even if he produced exactly has he had the last 4 years with a shitty defense. I try to preach to people this, but they think there is some divine connection with offense and defense.

You can view it from both sides... if KC had a badass defense the last 4 seasons, Green wouldn't likely have those crazy passing stats.

nychief
06-05-2006, 02:03 PM
Trent Green is not a Hall of Fame quarterback. He is a system QB and has never won anything. I love the guy, but lets get real.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 02:03 PM
Ok, so let's say for discussion purposes that while it is HIGHLY unlikely... Plummer and the Broncos win 3 straight SB's.

Plummer is a HOF'er?

So, you put Brady in already as well.



I put Brady in already... First rookie QB to ever win a SB? Forget about it. His place is secure.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:06 PM
Like I said... I don't think there's anything that I can say that is going to give you an appreciation for the impact the Steve Young story made on the league at the time that he was making an impact. If you were 10 years older, you might be able to grasp it better. His HOF bid wasn't about stats, and certainly not about his QB rating.

It was an underdog story for the ages... Perhaps the most significant underdog stories the NFL has ever seen.

Young was really good, but I don't know that I'd call his NFL career the most significant underdog story the NFL has ever seen.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:07 PM
I put Brady in already... First rookie QB to ever win a SB? Forget about it. His place is secure.

So, is Big Ben close to already being a lock? He damn near got it done as a rookie and won it in his second season.

chagrin
06-05-2006, 02:07 PM
He didn't suggest that any QB that played well with 3 rings would be a no-brainer... he just said, any QB with 3 rings. So, Dilfer needs just 2 more. Heh.

Yes, and I meant it. Brady should go, any QB that starts and wins 3 SuperBowls is a 1st ballot, doesn't matter to me if you agree or not, I really don't care.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 02:08 PM
Young was really good, but I don't know that I'd call his NFL career the most significant underdog story the NFL has ever seen.


How about coming up with a better one then?

BWillie
06-05-2006, 02:08 PM
One other note, when the Rams won the Super Bowl with Kurt Warner the season Green was going to be the starter but went down with a season ending injury in preseason. Do you really think it would of mattered if Warner or Green QBed? Green could of won a super bowl then. I know this is heresay, but alot of what goes into being a Hall of Famer and winning SB's is a combination of Skill, Luck, and being in the right place at the right time.

nychief
06-05-2006, 02:08 PM
I put Brady in already... First rookie QB to ever win a SB? Forget about it. His place is secure.

he wasn't a rookie, he was a second year.

nychief
06-05-2006, 02:10 PM
Steve Young was not an "underdog" story. He was a top pick of the ****ing Bucs out of BYU, were he was a record breaking QB at a school known for QBs.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 02:10 PM
So, is Big Ben close to already being a lock? He damn near got it done as a rookie and won it in his second season.


Hell no. Big Ben isn't even close.

Count Zarth
06-05-2006, 02:10 PM
Trent Green hasn't been an underdog? He could have easily called it quits before coming to Kansas City.

chagrin
06-05-2006, 02:11 PM
Young was really good, but I don't know that I'd call his NFL career the most significant underdog story the NFL has ever seen.

:clap:

Just TJ being TJ - "A conglomeration" of bullshit.

And that's why the dickhead will never be a Sportswriter.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 02:11 PM
I think the only QB that is a lock to be a Hall of Famer right now is Tom Brady. Tom Brady is a great quarterback, but if you put the top 3 or 4 QB's in the league right now on New England the last 4 years New England would have alot of the same results.

chagrin
06-05-2006, 02:13 PM
he wasn't a rookie, he was a second year.

Dude, don't bother TJ with facts

Brock
06-05-2006, 02:14 PM
How about coming up with a better one then?

Tom Brady was more of an underdog than Steve Young ever thought about being.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 02:16 PM
Tom Brady was more of an underdog than Steve Young ever thought about being.

No kidding, he was like a sixth round draft pick? Plus Steve Young was already blessed with Jerry Rice and a great system with proven success.

jspchief
06-05-2006, 02:16 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming that more of the same from Green will get him consideration.

But if he can continue his statistical course, and start winning some play-off games and a SB, I think he'll at least get a little mention. I think 2 Superbowls would make him a lock, to be perfectly honest.

Rain Man
06-05-2006, 02:19 PM
Young was really good, but I don't know that I'd call his NFL career the most significant underdog story the NFL has ever seen.

I'd have to agree. The thing I most remember about Young was the obscenely rich contract he signed with the USFL. The only underdog part of his story was that when he returned to the NFL he sat behind a former #1 pick for a couple of years.

A real underdog story would be a Trent Green or Gus Frerotte or Tim Rattay story, I would think. Or maybe a Bart Starr or Johnny Unitas story, where they were drafted in the 30,000th round or were plucked off a semi-pro team.

Brock
06-05-2006, 02:21 PM
I'd have to agree. The thing I most remember about Young was the obscenely rich contract he signed with the USFL. The only underdog part of his story was that when he returned to the NFL he sat behind a former #1 pick for a couple of years.

A real underdog story would be a Trent Green or Gus Frerotte or Tim Rattay story, I would think. Or maybe a Bart Starr or Johnny Unitas story, where they were drafted in the 30,000th round or were plucked off a semi-pro team.

Kurt Warner was pretty much THE underdog.

StcChief
06-05-2006, 02:22 PM
He didn't suggest that any QB that played well with 3 rings would be a no-brainer... he just said, any QB with 3 rings. So, Dilfer needs just 2 more. Heh.

Big difference. Dilfer won't get two more SB. The Baltimore D won that game. Everybody knows it.

It's a combination of factors Rating, completions, etc.

Brady has the 3 SB and was a big part of why they won them.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:22 PM
Hell no. Big Ben isn't even close.
If you were touting Brady for winning as a rookie (which he was not), then how is Ben not even close? I'm really just curious.. not trying to ruffle the feathers.

Chagrin - I'm not disagreeing that Brady isn't HOF worthy, he's a hell of a QB, you can't argue with his winning.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:28 PM
I'm going to avoid Brady comments - I think it's coming off as I don't think the guy is worthy, I do think he's a badass, just don't know that if it all ended today... would he be a 1st ballot guy?

If many of you say "yes, Brady would be a 1st ballot HOF'er today if he retired", then I'd have to ask... what are your thoughts on Terrell Davis and the HOF?

Similar situations. Yes, Brady is a QB and has 1 more SB... Brady has really only played in 5 of his 6 seasons. And, he's been dominating in those 5 winning 3 SBs.

Davis played for 7 seasons, with 4 very productive seasons... 2 rings, a leauge MVP and a SB MVP. His career was cut short due to injury and many on here in the past have said "hell no" to his HOF status due to the issue of longevity.

So, Brady has 1 more ring... if he retired today, why is he that much more a lock than Davis? Comparing positions is difficult, but I think it's a valid question.

Their longevity so far isn't that much different.

Count Zarth
06-05-2006, 02:30 PM
Because Brady is a quarterback.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:31 PM
Kurt Warner was pretty much THE underdog.

I do agree with this one... same goes for the likes of Brady, Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith (just to name 3 from Denver). I'd say Rod's NFL career is a better "underdog" story than Young.

JBucc
06-05-2006, 02:32 PM
I think QB is the only position where winning is really considered in HOF voting. For other positions it's all about stats and longevity.

Brock
06-05-2006, 02:32 PM
Davis played for 7 seasons, with 4 very productive seasons... 2 rings, a leauge MVP and a SB MVP. His career was cut short due to injury and many on here in the past have said "hell no" to his HOF status due to the issue of longevity.

Brady won superbowls with the likes of whats his name and that one guy at RB and WR. Come on, you're not serious.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 02:32 PM
Tom Brady was more of an underdog than Steve Young ever thought about being.



Hey, I think Tom Brady is a shoe-in for the HOF. And certainly he was an underdog as well... But there was no story there... No years of lead-up, like there was for Steve Young.

Steve Young was definitely an underdog. For starters, he was almost moved to DB by BYU, only to bust his ass and turn himself into a record breaker... In the NFL he was considered a bust in Tampa Bay and traded for a 2nd and a 4th because one of the worst teams in the league gave up on him. In SF he was there to replace a legend, facing one of the best teams ever assembled in the NFL.

There's more to the Steve Young story than simple stats. It doesn't matter to me if a bunch of people who are trying to rationalize Trent Green's bid into the HOF see it or not. You can't just take aspects of a HOF career and apply it to another quarterback and say "see, my guy has it too." The HOF is about more than just stats.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:33 PM
Because Brady is a quarterback.
Solid logic :rolleyes: ... just don't use that kind of logic in anything that you might write if you want people to think that you know what you're talking about.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:34 PM
Brady won superbowls with the likes of whats his name and that one guy at RB and WR. Come on, you're not serious.

So, Brady had no talent on those teams? I think the defenses were quite talented. Corey Dillon was the RB in one SB win... his receivers aren't Jerry Rice, but they're not Eddie Kennison either.

nychief
06-05-2006, 02:35 PM
I think the only QB that is a lock to be a Hall of Famer right now is Tom Brady. Tom Brady is a great quarterback, but if you put the top 3 or 4 QB's in the league right now on New England the last 4 years New England would have alot of the same results.


Favre?

nychief
06-05-2006, 02:37 PM
Davis a Hall of Famer in my book. He dominated his position for the time he played, no matter how short. He and Priest had similar stretches, although Davis was more productive, both stats and winning wise.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:37 PM
Favre is a lock for the HOF and like it or not, if you think Peyton Manning isn't headed to Canton (SB or not), you're crazy. If all he does is finish the next 5 seasons in the manner at which he started his career, he'll be in the HOF.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:39 PM
Davis a Hall of Famer in my book. He dominated his position for the time he played, no matter how short. He and Priest had similar stretches, although Davis was more productive, both stats and winning wise.

I think Davis also has the best post season resume for a RB as well, I'd have to double check the numbers... I looked at them a while back, but if he's not #1 overall post season, he's top 2.

Taco John
06-05-2006, 02:39 PM
If you were touting Brady for winning as a rookie (which he was not), then how is Ben not even close? I'm really just curious.. not trying to ruffle the feathers.

Chagrin - I'm not disagreeing that Brady isn't HOF worthy, he's a hell of a QB, you can't argue with his winning.


Ok, apparently I used the word "rookie" a bit too loosly for people's taste... It was his first year as a starter. Still incredibly impressive.

As far as your question regarding Big Ben, you seem to be completely ignoring the context around which the two guys won their Superbowls. Like I said before... The HOF isn't about any one thing (ie. stats). It's about the context in which the player gained his notoriety.

With regards to the Steelers, the way Big Ben played in the Superbowl, it could be argued that anybody could have been put in there and acheive similar results. He was just another guy on the field in the biggest game of his career. With Tom Brady, that isn't the case at all...

JBucc
06-05-2006, 02:39 PM
Davis a Hall of Famer in my book. He dominated his position for the time he played, no matter how short. He and Priest had similar stretches, although Davis was more productive, both stats and winning wise.you know the "is" on Davis doesn't count as the word is

Taco John
06-05-2006, 02:40 PM
I think Davis also has the best post season resume for a RB as well, I'd have to double check the numbers... I looked at them a while back, but if he's not #1 overall post season, he's top 2.



No, he's got the best postseason numbers of any RB in history currently...

Count Zarth
06-05-2006, 02:40 PM
Solid logic :rolleyes: ... just don't use that kind of logic in anything that you might write if you want people to think that you know what you're talking about.

I'm serious. Quarterbacks are different. Show me a quarterback that has three super bowl rings and isn't a hall of famer. They don't exist.

nychief
06-05-2006, 02:40 PM
you know the "is" on Davis doesn't count as the word is


thanks, smart ass.

JBucc
06-05-2006, 02:41 PM
thanks, smart ass.No problemo!:)

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:46 PM
As far as your question regarding Big Ben, you seem to be completely ignoring the context around which the two guys won their Superbowls. ...

I don't think I'm ignoring anything... I recall a kicker in NE being pretty damn clutch in the SBs. I'm not saying Ben is better or that Brady is just another guy.

I just don't see a huge difference in Big Ben and Brady after his first ring. Brady was a part of a great overall team that played very well and as a team they won 3. Ben is in the same position, so we'll see what happens there.

Brady finds a way to just win games ... Ben's got a pretty good W/L record as well.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:48 PM
No, he's got the best postseason numbers of any RB in history currently...

Cool - I thought that was right... Damn you Brian Griese! Damn you straight to hell... :mad:

ct
06-05-2006, 02:51 PM
I'm going to avoid Brady comments - I think it's coming off as I don't think the guy is worthy, I do think he's a badass, just don't know that if it all ended today... would he be a 1st ballot guy?

If many of you say "yes, Brady would be a 1st ballot HOF'er today if he retired", then I'd have to ask... what are your thoughts on Terrell Davis and the HOF?

Similar situations. Yes, Brady is a QB and has 1 more SB... Brady has really only played in 5 of his 6 seasons. And, he's been dominating in those 5 winning 3 SBs.

Davis played for 7 seasons, with 4 very productive seasons... 2 rings, a leauge MVP and a SB MVP. His career was cut short due to injury and many on here in the past have said "hell no" to his HOF status due to the issue of longevity.

So, Brady has 1 more ring... if he retired today, why is he that much more a lock than Davis? Comparing positions is difficult, but I think it's a valid question.

Their longevity so far isn't that much different.

Yes, if Brady quit today, he'd be a sure HOF'r. And yes, TD should be a HOF'r as well, IMO. But face it MHM, the QB position will always get more attention...always.

I'll state my opinion on TG again. If he plays 2 more years with similar individual #s, team offensive prowess, AND leads KC to a Super Bowl championship, then let's discuss. For now, he's a solid system QB.

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 02:55 PM
I'm not doubting at all that QBs get more favors in this regard, I threw out the comparison hoping to get realistic feedback on the two players in that scenario. There's definitely a bias for and against certain positions.

ct
06-05-2006, 03:07 PM
I'm not doubting at all that QBs get more favors in this regard, I threw out the comparison hoping to get realistic feedback on the two players in that scenario. There's definitely a bias for and against certain positions.

I think Terrell Davis should be in the HOF. Priest Holmes I do not, however, which certainly won't make me too popular around here. What's the difference? bling and bling

CoMoChief
06-05-2006, 03:14 PM
I dont think that Trent Green will put up the kinda numbers he has put up the past years simply because Solari and Herm will emphasis more on running the ball. AS was good at having a balanced offense, but Marty ball will return to this team whether you like it or not.

kcfanXIII
06-05-2006, 03:16 PM
brady, favre, and peyton are the only locks right now. green will be on the ring at arrowhead, but probably won't make the hall, unless he pulls an elway and wins a super bowl or two to close his career.

tk13
06-05-2006, 03:22 PM
If Rodney Harrison hadn't taken his knee out, you know, I think he'd be close. He'd have a ring and he'd have some pretty sick numbers over a 6 year stretch.

He definitely needs some playoff success, and about three more good years I think to get in the picture. My favorite Trent stat is that he's had 4 consecutive years at 90.0 QB rating or higher. The only two other QB's in the history of football to do that are Favre and Young... Favre did it 4 straight years and Young did it for 7. Ratings are inflated nowadays, but that is still difficult to do. Trent almost didn't reach 90 this year. Plus you have to stay healthy. If he came close to that three more years with a Super Bowl, I think he'd be in. That'd be no different than Young. Although the problem with us is, we are perceived as a running offense. Guys like Fouts and Warner and Gannon won MVP's and led offenses that were pass happy, that'll be tough for Trent to do with Larry Johnson on the team and with Manning and Brady in his conference. Aikman did it though, so who knows.

greg63
06-05-2006, 04:11 PM
Because Brady is a quarterback.

Isn't your avatar a bit noncompliant??

Here; let me help you with that.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 05:16 PM
I think Terrell Davis should be in the HOF. Priest Holmes I do not, however, which certainly won't make me too popular around here. What's the difference? bling and bling

I'd have to say Terrell Davis in front of Priest Holmes, but just by a smidge, and if he isn't in then Priest isn't in. I just don't think Priest has done enough, maybe if he can put together a few more good suprise seasons with somebody and win a superbowl. What does everyone think about the possibility as Priest as a HOF'er?

cdcox
06-05-2006, 06:58 PM
I'll give you a hint ,guys. There are three ways to get to the HOF as a QB:

1) win at least 2 SB

-OR-

2) win 1 SB and get into the top 10 in most statistical categories at the time of your retirement

-OR-

3) be a scary good QB for 5 years with additional years of very good.


A scary good QB is someone who, when you see that team coming up on the schedule, you immediately think, "Oh, shit." When his team is going to be on MNF next week, they show his face, because everyone wants to see him play. You don't have to look at stats, or heaven forbid QB ratings, to know this guy will be a hall of famer.

My theory explains all of the "controversial" HOF in the modern era:

Namath gets in on category 3 (the SB win didn't hurt)
Young is also a category 3 guy, also with a SB.
Dawson was a 2 guy.
Greise was a 1 guy.

All Trent needs to make the HOF is the 2 SB wins.

JBucc
06-05-2006, 07:00 PM
All Trent needs to make the HOF is the 2 SB wins.Sounds easy enough.

SLAG
06-05-2006, 07:02 PM
All Trent needs to make the HOF is the 2 SB wins.

So where is the problem



:hmmm:

cdcox
06-05-2006, 07:14 PM
So where is the problem



:hmmm:

We play like crap on the road, and have for 35 years.

Jayhawkerman2001
06-05-2006, 07:18 PM
As much as I love trent green and priest holmes, and if it were up to me they'd be in, i dont think that they have even a slight chance to get in. I just know what the people around the nfl would be saying and thats that priest was always hurt and hasnt really started in the nfl too awful long, and pretty much same with trent. Definitely by his numbers, id say trent would have a decent chance, but again hes very underrated, and that'll hurt him in the long run. I think trent could have a chance if he played for about 3 more years with at least 2500-3000 yards per with at least 15-20 TDs per, which may be tough with his age, but who knows.

He does throw on hell'uva block, and it makes me yell and scream for joy when he does, because he tries his absolute hardest to win at all costs. Trent is definitely not afraid to kick some ass.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 08:19 PM
You know, Trent has a Super Bowl ring from St. Louey but unfortunately he was hurt the entire year and didn't play. He got himself a ring though. That should count right??! haha

Mile High Mania
06-05-2006, 08:21 PM
You know, Trent has a Super Bowl ring from St. Louey but unfortunately he was hurt the entire year and didn't play. He got himself a ring though. That should count right??! haha

Brian Griese has a ring.

greg63
06-05-2006, 08:32 PM
So where is the problem



:hmmm:

He's two SB shy of the that bench mark.

philfree
06-05-2006, 10:31 PM
If Trent plays two more years at the level he's played the last four years and wins a Super Bowl and is the Super Bowl MVP he may have an outside chance. Besides being Mr. Consistent he needs to add something special to his resume'. A SB MVP or a special season where he has a QB rating of over 100. with a bunch of TDs and hardly any INTs. He needs to something special. Trent Green has become my favorite current Chiefs player but I don't care about the HOF I just want him to win it all because he's very deserving.


PhilFree:arrow:

Mecca
06-05-2006, 10:35 PM
Trent Green is never going to sniff that....tossing his stats up there is nice but anymore it's not even about stats.

I can toss up a guy like Art Monk and go if it's all about stats why isn't he in? It's all about perception simple as that, the guys who get slobbed on by the media week in and week out have a better shot of making it than guys with better stats than them.

BWillie
06-05-2006, 10:39 PM
It's all about perception simple as that, the guys who get slobbed on by the media week in and week out have a better shot of making it than guys with better stats than them.

Well said. Playing in the East Coast helps too.