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Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 07:43 AM
http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/sports.pat,sports/3774f402.b29,.html

3 days ago it was sore enough to prevent hin from playing, but now it's at 75 or 80 percent?

Was there some radical new "sore finger treatment" that was invented on Monday?

This "F"ing guy may be the best QB on the Chiefs roster, unfortunately, but he's still a p_ssy IMO.

ck_IN
11-30-2000, 08:26 AM
And if he'd thrown an int or lost his grip on the ball and fumbled you'd probably be out here complaining about how he was playing just to extend his consecutive starts streak. Or trying to pad his stats. Or Afraid that someone else would show him up. The conclusion would be that he should've let Moon play and was endangering the team with his injury.

With some folks EG simply can't win.

Cannibal
11-30-2000, 08:29 AM
With other folks, EG simply can do no wrong.<P>

ck_IN
11-30-2000, 08:39 AM
Over 3000yrds 23 TD's 11 ints 3rd in the AFC in passing and all done with NO running game and idiots for coaches.

If that's wrong, I don't wanna be right.

Gaz
11-30-2000, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>With other folks, EG simply can do no wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And vice versa with some other folks.

xoxo~
gaz
somewhere in the middle.<BR>

kcred
11-30-2000, 08:49 AM
Ck's post says it all. If he had played, he shouldn't have, and since he didn't, he should have. By the way Clint, is there anything you like about the Chiefs?

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 08:49 AM
IF my aunt had gonads, she'd be my uncle.

Grbac has put up some good numbers, AND he's a p_ssy.

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 08:50 AM
KCred,

Right now? Very little.

I would guess my favorite thing about the team at this point would be Arrowhead Stadium.

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 11-30-2000).]

Coogs
11-30-2000, 08:51 AM
Presonally, I think Grbac is still an average QB. Sure his stats look good, and his is the leader of this team. That is the problem I have with Grbac. His leadership. He plays with no heart. He leads with no heart. How many times did they show him on the sidelines last Sunday, and it looked like he could have cared less. He wasn't encouraging the offense of defense at all, he was just standing there.

The same thing happens on the field. How many thime after the receivers make a TD have you seen him run down to the endzone and congratulate the receiver. I have never seen him do it once. Instead, he looks in the stands, pumps his fist, and has this arrogant look as if the TD was all his doings. Not a team player in my book. Descent (sp) QB. Not the kind I like though. I like the Farve type that are into the team.

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 08:52 AM
Grbac is not the leader of the team. He's not even the leader of the offense. Everybody knows the offensive leader is Grunhard. The defensive leader is Hasty.

Name another center who is the leader of his offense.

kc hopeful
11-30-2000, 08:56 AM
Reminington of the mid 70's cornhuskers?

Coogs
11-30-2000, 09:08 AM
Clint,

I disagree. Grunhard has some heart, but our team plays with no heart. that is more the pattern of Grbac. Therefore, Grbac is the leader. I wish Grunhard was the leader.

Coogs
11-30-2000, 09:10 AM
Clint,

I do however agree with your feeling about Grbac. A wuss he is.

kcred
11-30-2000, 09:10 AM
Much of what has been said, on the surface, may appear to be true, however, from the comments most of the offensive players have made, they seem to have a lot of confindence in him. And after watching the past couple of season, I, for one, now feel if we are down by 7, in the last two minutes, that he can pull it out. Until this season, I could not say that.

Coogs
11-30-2000, 09:14 AM
kcred,

That is what I am saying. The players believe in Grbac, and have taken on his personality. No heart. Yes he can get it done. But there is no spirit at all. He is the leader. The rest of the troops are following right along.

kcred
11-30-2000, 09:20 AM
I will agree he is no Deberg, I can still remember him playing with a bone sticking out, and given the results, could not have played worse than Moon. But, I, for one think he has done a great job this year, and with the receiving corps we have, the offense, with the addition of a RB, bodes well for years to come. And does anyone know if was him, that said he couldn't play, or Gunther?

Coogs
11-30-2000, 09:26 AM
kcred,

I agree. He has done a great job this year of posting stats. Even if Gun said he shouldn't play, he could lead from the sidelines instead of act like he could care less. He can throw the ball, he can make money. That is what it looks like this is all about.

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 09:39 AM
http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/sports.pat,sports/3774f3f2.b29,.html

I agree with Flannigan 100%.

Coogs
11-30-2000, 09:41 AM
One more, then I'll get off my soapbox. I started paying attention to this way back in the preseason games. I don't remember which game it was, but Grbac threw an interception and went and sat on the bench all by himself. Maas picked up on this and said this was not a good sign. He said Grbac shoud be down with the rest of his offensive teammates a "solidifying themselves as teammates" (those are my words on what he said, but that is what he meant). When was the last time you saw this team after a really big play have a mass celebration like some other teams do. It's been a while. I think we have talent, but are a collection of individuals, not a team. Grbac is the one leading that mass of individuals. Watch the game Monday, and see if you can pick up on this. I'm done now!

[This message has been edited by Coogs (edited 11-30-2000).]

Coogs
11-30-2000, 09:42 AM
Clint,

I agree with Flanagan also.

Gaz
11-30-2000, 10:10 AM
Flanagan is wrong.

He has no idea what Grbac's injury is, so he has no basis for his contention that Grbac should suck it up and play.

Griese and Davis "sucked it up and played" and look what has happened to them.

Flanagan also ignores the fact that Grbac has carried the Offense with NO running game and NO Offensive strategy or scheme. Despite this, he is having a record season.

You all know that I was not a Grbac fan. I posted many, MANY times that he was not our QBOTF. I have since softened my stance because he forced me to. Flanagan's comments on Grbac have no basis in reality or reason.

xoxo~
gaz
reformed Grbac opponent.<BR>

Baby Lee
11-30-2000, 10:22 AM
Flanagan is looking at the wrong role models in forming his expectations of Grbac. The Pack SUCKS. The Pats SUCK [tho' they may beat the Chiefs]. The Bronc don't suck, but Greise's hubris may have cost them the post season.
OTOH, Warner breaks his pinky and is out for what, 5 weeks. No one can doubt what he did last year, and he is set up to return to his team the conquering hero, with them still in good shape for the playoffs.

As bad as this season is, it could get worse. Imagine a next year, with CP in San Diego, Elvis in Cleveland, (Corey Dillon STILL in Cinci), and Gun running the D in St. Louis. All replicating the Gannon/Rison/Horn phenomenon. All in programs at the top [Gun, Gannon, Rison] or on the rise [Horn, CP, Elvis, Dillon, Shields somewhere]. All with brighter futures than anyone on the Chiefs.

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 11-30-2000).]

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 10:26 AM
Remember DeBerg? Many people wanted him to be the Chiefs OC because of his leadership and TOUGHNESS.

The mere fact that Grbac's finger is healed enough to play less than 4 DAYS after missing a game is proof that it couldn't have been that bad.

Grbac still isn't worth what he'll cost the team in cap dollars if he's retained.

Gaz
11-30-2000, 10:29 AM
Clint-

As usual, your definition of “proof” confounds me. That fact that Grbac might play over a week later is “proof” that he could have played a week ago?

I am coming to the conclusion that “proof” means “anything that agrees with my opinion.”

xoxo~
gaz
a stickler for Webster’s definitions.<BR>

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 10:30 AM
The only reason that a Gannon/Horn phenomenon exists is because of the incompetent coaching staff they played under while they were here.

It is now obvious, IMO, that Horn should've been kept and utilized, and Morris should not have been drafted.

Here's a random thought: Is there anyone out there that would rather see Martin Grammatica in a Chiefs uniform than Gary Stills?

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 10:33 AM
Grbac said yesterday that he was at about 75-80% and he would play if the game were today.

He missed the game Sunday.

That means that in a 3 day span he's gone from being in so much pain that he couldn't play in the most important game of the season (Sunday), to being ready to go on Wednesday.

Your original opinion on Grbac was correct, IMO.

Baby Lee
11-30-2000, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> That means that in a 3 day span he's gone from being in so much pain that he couldn't play in the most important game of the season (Sunday), to being ready to go on Wednesday. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, NO, NO , F^%k NO. there is more to this than pain. There is throwing ability, likelihood of further injury, faith in Warren Moon [gasp]. Sure hindsight's 20/20 on Moon.
Its a little fuzzy [after years of actively expelling Bono memories], but didn't S-Bo have a pinky problem of some kind in the Indy playoff game? Didn't he throw a ton of Ints?

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 10:49 AM
Regardless of what exactly caused EG to miss the game Sunday, pain or lack of confidence in his ability to perform well, it magically improved enough for him to play in a TWO DAY SPAN!!

I was wrong when I typed 3 days. He said he was ready to go on Tuesday, and could play if the game were Wednesday.

The worst thing is that he didn't WANT to play. Favre, Deberg, etc. have to be benched by the coach.

Grbac was either exaggerating the extent of his injury, has superhuman healing ability, or is just a wuss.

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 11-30-2000).]

Baby Lee
11-30-2000, 10:59 AM
Clint - no your right, Elvis sucks too. Which brings the tabulation to:
GM - Sucks
HC - Sucks
OC - Sucks
DC - Sucks
STC - Sucks
O-Line - Sucks
HB - Sucks
FB - Sucks
D-Line -Sucks
LB - Sucks
2ndary - Sucks

AND - QB - Sucks [worse than the rest put together]

Outside of 1 TE, a couple of receivers, and a punter, this team is worthless. BUT I'm a fan. don't question that.

Does that about sum it up?

Only slightly TIC.<P>

Chiefnj
11-30-2000, 11:36 AM
Grbac has developed into one of the better pocket QB's in the league, but lets face it, he doesn't sacrifice his body for the team. When is the last time you saw him run and take a hit going for a first down? Or how about making a tackle after throwing an INT? I can't think of any examples.<P>

Gaz
11-30-2000, 11:46 AM
Some folks are going to latch on to any “fact” as “proof” that the player they despise is a bust. FWIW, I am guilty of the same sin when it comes to Schottenheimer as DC. I am not totally rational on the subject of the Spineless Jellyfish Stooge, and some folks are not totally rational on the subject of Grbac.

This is a seriously misguided thread, but the same can be said of my threads about Schottenheimer. You should simply consider the source [in both instances] and do not waste your time speaking rationally to either of us on our particular subject. You are not going to change our minds and are only going to frustrate yourselves with our stubbornness.

xoxo~
gaz
understands his brothers Clint and Cannibal.<BR>

KCTitus
11-30-2000, 11:47 AM
So what we are assuming here is that EG took himself out of the game last week and it wasnt Gunther's decision about whether or not to start EG; or, as we learned later this week, Jimmy Raye who apparently has the ability to sway Gun's decision making.

Under that assumption, I guess, you could have a point. But wouldnt one reasonably assume that their backup QB should be able to beat an 0-10 opponent?

It's funny, last year it was griping because he was playing and now its griping because he didnt play. How far we have come.<BR>

Cannibal
11-30-2000, 11:56 AM
What are talking about me for Gaz?

I didn't have anything to do with this thread.<P>

Gaz
11-30-2000, 12:01 PM
Cannibal-

I meant no offense. You and Clint often tag-team on bashing Grbac. I was speaking in general, not about this thread. There are several other posters who fit the description. Your handle is just more memorable than most.

xoxo~
gaz
limited in memory capability.<BR>

Chiefnj
11-30-2000, 12:11 PM
Even if his finger was only 50-60% it would have been nice to see Grbac begging Gunther to be put in the game in the 4th quarter when it was obvious Moon wasn't doing to well and all we needed was one good drive.

MrBlond
11-30-2000, 12:12 PM
My .02

Elvis is clearly a bright spot in this dismal season. However, he has a reputation as a soft QB. Reputations are earned and Elvis has earned his. He doesnt play hurt, that is well documented. He has missed playing time on hits that seem routine to me. While it is true that Griese has missed PT because of playing w/injury he has earned his teammates respect and his own rep. Even with the gaudy numbers do you think Elvis has his teammates respect? Teammates like Wesley who has played SS most of the year with a cast? Grunhard? I agree with everyone who defends EG. He is the LEAST of our problems. But he is not a gamer.

Gaz
11-30-2000, 12:15 PM
Chiefnj-

Grbac was the emergency QB and could not play unless both Moon and Collins were knocked out of the game.

xoxo~
gaz
explaining Grbac’s lack of pleading.<BR>

Chiefnj
11-30-2000, 12:18 PM
Thanks Gaz.<P>

DaWolf
11-30-2000, 12:26 PM
This is all such BS. He has barely missed any playing time due to injuries other than the freak hit that broke his collarbone and the freak hit that seperated his shoulder. Now maybe a finger isn't a big deal to you, but to a QB that is his livelihood. Now do you really think that if Elvis' finger was good enough to perform he doesn't jump at the chance to throw 5 more TD passes? This sort of injury affects your grip, taking the snap, the velocity and the spin you put on the ball, etc. Plus do you risk further injury if you are the coaches against a team you should be able to beat with your 3rd stringer? Hindsight is 20/20. IMO, this is more about people wanting to find more stuff to complain about than a legitimate knock on Grbac...

Baby Lee
11-30-2000, 12:38 PM
Amen Da. Preach it brotha'.

Gaz
11-30-2000, 12:49 PM
Cannibal-

Re #33:

Have I done you wrong?

xoxo~
gaz
drafting an apology, just in case.<BR>

ck_IN
11-30-2000, 01:31 PM
Ok, lets look at the facts.

We have an away game at NE, and Denver is coming to town. We're currently playing SD. SD is 0-11. Our QB has an injury to the index finger of his throwing hand. We have a consensus Hall of Famer as our backup. SD is a team we blew out in week 3(?). cRyan Leaf is starting for SD, a QB we've destroyed on more than one occasion. SD has no running game, no receiving corps, a suspect secondary, and a weak pass rush.

Now someone please explain to me in rational, objective, logical terms how anyone could fault EG or Gun for not playing Elvis, starting Moon, and making sure EG is ready for NE and Denver.

Cannibal
11-30-2000, 01:41 PM
Gaz,

Well to be honest with you I really don't like Grbac.

I never have. I never wanted the Chiefs to sign him in the first place.

My disdain for Grbac was hightened when he said he wanted to go to Cleveland to be a backup.

His not playing in the last game did not surprise me at all.

I do admit that I used to bash him mercilessly. But his play this year has put a stop to that and shut me up. There is no debating that he has statistically become an upper eschelon QB.

But I still believe that he does lack heart and leadership. I would be happy if they him let him go after the year is up. I don't even care that he's performing well. This team sucks anyway, and will probably suck for a few more years. So with that in mind, I'd like to see the Chiefs get a younger QB that they can develop from within.

Now instead of the "Ryan Leaf-Grbac" we had 2 years ago, we have the new "Jeff George-Grbac" Neither one will ever win a champioship.

I guess you were right in the first place, no apology necessary.

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-30-2000).]

Gaz
11-30-2000, 01:44 PM
Cannibal-

Good. I don't like words put in my mouth and I did not want to do that to you.

xoxo~
gaz
tearing up a nicely-worded apology.<BR>

Cannibal
11-30-2000, 01:53 PM
We cool...

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 03:56 PM
JC Johnny,

I would say that the only areas where the Chiefs don't need some serious changes are DL, FB, TE, WR, and punter.

However, I hope a tackle can be found to replace McGlockton this offseason.

Grbac can put up the numbers...that's obvious. He just needs to work on his brain.

Clint in Wichita
11-30-2000, 03:58 PM
JC Johnny,

I would say that the only areas where the Chiefs don't need some serious changes are DL, FB, TE, WR, and punter.

However, I hope a tackle can be found to replace McGlockton this offseason.

Grbac can put up the numbers...that's obvious. He just needs to work on his brain.

BubbaZ
11-30-2000, 09:25 PM
Now it seems that most people have come around on the Elvis saga and grudgingly admit that he puts up good numbers. Now the knock on him is "he's not a winner". I believe at some point last year and maybe still today, he has the highest winning percentage of any active QB with more than 40 starts. Johnny U, Joe Montana, and John Elway in their prime could not win with this team. The defense can not stop anyone from scoring on crucial 4th quarter drives, the special teams have cost us at least three games this year due to missed field goals and poor field position at crucial times (i.e. San Diego) and the coaching staff is pathetic (about this I think we can all agree). Can we please stop the Elvis bashing, he is the least of our worries on this football team. Elvis is having a great year, give him his due.

Archie F. Swin
11-30-2000, 09:46 PM
I'm not anti-Grbac

But . . . I have to ask this question

Is it not possible that any mediocre NFL QB, with our recieving corps and no running game, have a record year? This is the year that Grbac has dreamed of . . . he HAS to throw the ball . . . His position is now one of the few that is not questioned on this team.

[This message has been edited by Chief Red Pants (edited 11-30-2000).]