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View Full Version : J.P. Howell is a Devil Ray


chiefqueen
06-20-2006, 04:21 PM
We got Joey Gathright in return.

IMO it doesn't make sense if Dayton wants to stockpile pitching.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2493010

DaneMcCloud
06-20-2006, 04:30 PM
Wow, great trade! Start printing...ah, forget it. :rolleyes:

Gathright was sent down to Triple-A by Tampa Bay after hitting .201 with a .305 on-base percentage and .240 slugging percentage in 154 at bats while filling in for the injured Rocco Baldelli. He made his major league debut in 2004 and was originally drafted by the Devil Rays in the 32nd round of the 2001 amateur Draft.

CoMoChief
06-20-2006, 04:32 PM
We got Joey Gathright in return.

IMO it doesn't make sense if Dayton wants to stockpile pitching.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2493010


Gathright is solid IMO. Last season in fantasy I picked up him and Bill Hall and they both did pretty good for me. I havent followed him much this season though I just remember than Gathright played when Alex Sanchez was out and ended up producing better than Sanchez.

RockChalk
06-20-2006, 04:33 PM
I like Gathright. Hasn't played great for TB, but we need a true leadoff guy with some speed and an ability to steal bases. Hopefully this means an end to the Emil Brown era.

DaneMcCloud
06-20-2006, 04:35 PM
Gathright is solid IMO. Last season in fantasy I picked up him and Bill Hall and they both did pretty good for me. I havent followed him much this season though I just remember than Gathright played when Alex Sanchez was out and ended up producing better than Sanchez.

Nothing personal, but how can a guy who's hit .201 in 154 games be a good pickup? I mean, who COULDN'T hit .201?

Cochise
06-20-2006, 04:36 PM
Depends on what the team thought of Howell. He seemed ok, but nothing that special.

Gathright is a rare talent in terms of speed, and the Royals are a team with absolutely no speed. Radio guys during that D-Rays series were comparing him to Kenny Lofton.

It's Moore's team to run. We'll see who pans out and who doesn't. At least we are making some moves and trying to get better.

tk13
06-20-2006, 04:36 PM
Wow, now there's a surprise. Howell was probably our most advanced pitching prospect, aside from Hernandez/Greinke and guys who have more MLB experience of course. There have been a lot of fans over the years clamoring for Gathright, even though he hasn't shown the ability to hit yet. I liked Howell though, he had good stuff and was a smart, polished college pitcher.

Be interesting to see how he does as a Royal, our ballpark is built for guys like this. It looks like we're starting to put some emphasis back on speed. And I think Dayton made that clear during the draft. We drafted a lot of versatile CF types.

RockChalk
06-20-2006, 04:36 PM
Nothing personal, but how can a guy who's hit .201 in 154 games be a good pickup? I mean, who COULDN'T hit .201?

Mike Sweeney

Cochise
06-20-2006, 04:40 PM
Wow, now there's a surprise. Howell was probably our most advanced pitching prospect...

Makes you think that Dayton Moore probably doesn't consider "The Royals' most advanced pitching prospect" to currently be much of a compliment.

tk13
06-20-2006, 04:40 PM
Nothing personal, but how can a guy who's hit .201 in 154 games be a good pickup? I mean, who COULDN'T hit .201?
He's looking at potential here, both sides are really. Gathright can flat out fly. Probably one of the fastest players in all of baseball.

Husky4506
06-20-2006, 04:40 PM
HAHA yeah Sweeney is terrible.
I like the trade. Gathright has blazing speed!
GO ROYALS!!!

DaneMcCloud
06-20-2006, 04:42 PM
who COULDN'T hit .201?


Mike Sweeney

Yeah, but Sweeney's at the end of his career and has been injured forever. There was a point where Sweeney was a pretty damn good ball player but those days seem to be long gone.

It just seems weird to give up on pitching for a guy that's fast. But whatever. He's proved that he can't hit so he better have something.

tk13
06-20-2006, 04:44 PM
Apparently we also recieved Fernando Cortez in the deal... a 24 year old AAA second baseman.

DaneMcCloud
06-20-2006, 04:45 PM
Apparently we also recieved Fernando Cortez in the deal... a 24 year old AAA second baseman.

Well, that makes a little more sense then. It just didn't sound right if it were a one-for-one deal.

Cochise
06-20-2006, 04:45 PM
Apparently we also recieved Fernando Cortez in the deal... a 24 year old AAA second baseman.

EL CONQUISTADOR!

sedated
06-20-2006, 04:46 PM
I like this trade.

If nothing else, it shows an end to the Baird philosophy on trading.

Baird would never have traded Howell, or anyone that showed promise. That's why we never got anything in return.

We gotta give up some talent to get (hopefully better) talent

sedated
06-20-2006, 04:49 PM
could we see DeJesus in left? :hmmm:

maybe this is setting the stage for Sanders to get traded :hmmm:

maybe the real steal in this trade was the throw-in 2B :hmmm:

CoMoChief
06-20-2006, 04:51 PM
Nothing personal, but how can a guy who's hit .201 in 154 games be a good pickup? I mean, who COULDN'T hit .201?

He had a very solid season last year. This season he obviously hasnt done as well but last season he didnt even start and still had 20 stolen bases. Not too bad considering he only played in half of the games in '05. The guy can steal. We at least need that especially due to the fact that we cant hit.

tk13
06-20-2006, 04:51 PM
And looking at a quick search, Cortez doesn't look like just some throw-in either. He is 24, not terribly old...

Cortez was AA Montgomery player of the year in 2004, the Rays AA team. Then last year he named the best defensive infielder in the Rays organization, got a short cup of coffee in the big leagues but didn't do much. He's a natural 2nd baseman but can play short or third. And, no surprise, apparently is a decent basestealer.

Cochise
06-20-2006, 04:53 PM
And looking at a quick search, Cortez doesn't look like just some throw-in either. He is 24, not terribly old...

Cortez was AA Montgomery player of the year in 2004, the Rays AA team. Then last year he named the best defensive infielder in the Rays organization, got a short cup of coffee in the big leagues but didn't do much. He's a natural 2nd baseman but can play short or third. And, no surprise, apparently is a decent basestealer.

Well now, it's nice to see some speed and defense entering the organization. Two things we could definitely use.

kc rush
06-20-2006, 04:55 PM
And looking at a quick search, Cortez doesn't look like just some throw-in either. He is 24, not terribly old...

Cortez was AA Montgomery player of the year in 2004, the Rays AA team. Then last year he named the best defensive infielder in the Rays organization, got a short cup of coffee in the big leagues but didn't do much. He's a natural 2nd baseman but can play short or third. And, no surprise, apparently is a decent basestealer.

Thats encouraging.

Bye Grudz, Bye Sanders. Hopefully we can get something decent in return for these two.

CoMoChief
06-20-2006, 04:57 PM
we need a ****in catcher badly. I hope we draft that one catcher in next seasons draft whos supposed to be #1 pick.

CoMoChief
06-20-2006, 04:57 PM
Well now, it's nice to see some speed and defense entering the organization. Two things we could definitely use.


We could really use everything. Theres not one thing we are even decent at IMO.

beavis
06-20-2006, 05:01 PM
we need a ****in catcher badly. I hope we draft that one catcher in next seasons draft whos supposed to be #1 pick.
Our catcher is in Wichita right now.

beavis
06-20-2006, 05:03 PM
I'm still trying to work this trade out in my head. Why would we trade one of the very few pitching prospects we have for an outfielder? Makes me think maybe he's got something else working for Sanders. Will be interesting to see how this one turns out.

tk13
06-20-2006, 05:06 PM
I'm still trying to work this trade out in my head. Why would we trade one of the very few pitching prospects we have for an outfielder? Makes me think maybe he's got something else working for Sanders. Will be interesting to see how this one turns out.
That's the 100,000 dollar question. It's obvious that Dayton is emphasizing speed, no idea what his thoughts are on developing starting pitching though. He obviously thinks he thinks he can find it... somewhere.

beavis
06-20-2006, 05:10 PM
That's the 100,000 dollar question. It's obvious that Dayton is emphasizing speed, no idea what his thoughts are on developing starting pitching though. He obviously thinks he thinks he can find it... somewhere.
Well, after surfing around a bit, it seems some are thinking that Moore didn't have much confidence that Howell would amount to anything. Maybe he was just dumping him while he still had some value. If that's the case, then I like it. If Gaithright comes up and plays decent, we could always turn around and deal him for something down the road. The more I read about it, the more I like it.

banyon
06-20-2006, 05:10 PM
Wow. I have been waiting on this move for two years. Before the deal was supposed to be Andres Blanco for Gathright.

Hopefully his bat will develop and he'll be Juan Pierre instead of Tom Goodwin.

FringeNC
06-20-2006, 05:14 PM
CF is the only position where we had an above-average MLB player. DeJesus is a lot less valuable at a corner outfield position, and Gaithright has no value as a corner outfielder. This move is a head-scratcher.

Gaithright seems to be willing to take a pitch, which means he could develop....my question, again, where the hell is he going to play? CF was the only position of strength on the whole team.

SCTrojan
06-20-2006, 05:15 PM
I like this trade.

If nothing else, it shows an end to the Baird philosophy on trading.

Baird would never have traded Howell, or anyone that showed promise. That's why we never got anything in return.

We gotta give up some talent to get (hopefully better) talent

I agree completely. Take prudent risks and build slowly. Why not a speedy centerfielder? If he can play good D, then we'll have two solid young outfielders.

Sure, J.P. Howell could turn out to be a four-time Cy Young winner, but you've got to take some chances to change the attitude in the organization.

beavis
06-20-2006, 05:20 PM
Sure, J.P. Howell could turn out to be a four-time Cy Young winner...
I kinda doubt that. From what I've seen, he's a back of the rotation guy at best.

KevB
06-20-2006, 05:24 PM
CF is the only position where we had an above-average MLB player. DeJesus is a lot less valuable at a corner outfield position, and Gaithright has no value as a corner outfielder. This move is a head-scratcher.

Gaithright seems to be willing to take a pitch, which means he could develop....my question, again, where the hell is he going to play? CF was the only position of strength on the whole team.

Very good point. I'm trying to square this deal in my head.....an organization with very little in the pitching pipeline deals the one guy in the upper minors who could develop into a #3 type starter dealt for a position where we're at the very least average. DeJesus isn't a corner outfielder on a good team.

Having said that, Howell is a guy that tops out at 90 MPH on a good day, and struggled mightily after a good initial start last year. His success comes from fooling hitters, and that's much tougher to do in the Show than it is in the minors.

I sure hope Gathright learns to hit......

ChiefsFire
06-20-2006, 05:26 PM
I like the trade....weve all been calling for change...Gathright is the new CF according to 810...not hitting leadoff

RockChalk
06-20-2006, 05:31 PM
CF is the only position where we had an above-average MLB player. DeJesus is a lot less valuable at a corner outfield position, and Gaithright has no value as a corner outfielder. This move is a head-scratcher.

Gaithright seems to be willing to take a pitch, which means he could develop....my question, again, where the hell is he going to play? CF was the only position of strength on the whole team.

Gathright is twice the centerfield DeJesus is, and DeJesus is a damn good outfielder, which to me means that he can move over to left field. It will be nice having more than one guy out there than can catch a fly ball. Watch Gathright play center for a game and tell me he doesn't have a chance to be one of the best defensive CF's in the game in the future

tk13
06-20-2006, 05:34 PM
I always liked Howell, he had real good movement on his pitches. At least more than George and Gobble did, I thought he had a better chance than those other lefties because of that. I definitely think he's more of a strikeout pitcher than those two. He has a chance to develop into a solid player.

We'll see what happens with DeJesus. You can always move CF's to other positions. Just like how we used to have Damon and Beltran in the same OF.

To be honest, DeJesus might be on the trade block just like everybody else eventually. Something is going to give, especially if Huber permanently stays in left field. In our first 10 picks, we drafted three outfielders, all of whom were really fast, including Derrick Robinson, who was going to be a two sport star at Florida and considered the fastest player in the draft. In the 7th round we took Brett Bigler, who had 27 steals and is UC-Riverside's all-time steals leader and was considered one of the best defensive center fielders in college baseball. Then in the 10th round we took an Juco OF from Missouri who lead the NJCAA with 14 triples. And now add Gathright to the mix... definitely looking for some guys who can cover a lot of ground out there.

SCTrojan
06-20-2006, 05:34 PM
I kinda doubt that. From what I've seen, he's a back of the rotation guy at best.

I agree. I guess I meant it more like you shouldn't stop yourself from making what you think is a sound baseball decision now on the off chance that Howell might become great.

Mr. Laz
06-20-2006, 05:36 PM
who knows ...... with as bad as the talent level has been i'm willing to trust moore about it before anyone currently with the organization.

Sam Hall
06-20-2006, 05:44 PM
I think it says something about J.P. Howell when Luke Hochevar will be the best pitcher in our minor league system, if he signs. I don't know what Gathright will become, but Moore didn't give up much to get him.

Cochise
06-20-2006, 05:54 PM
Very good point. I'm trying to square this deal in my head.....an organization with very little in the pitching pipeline deals the one guy in the upper minors who could develop into a #3 type starter dealt for a position where we're at the very least average.

I guess having no high level prospects at pitcher is not much different than only having one.

VonneMarie
06-20-2006, 05:55 PM
This trade is dumb. :shake:

FringeNC
06-20-2006, 06:10 PM
Gathright is twice the centerfield DeJesus is, and DeJesus is a damn good outfielder, which to me means that he can move over to left field. It will be nice having more than one guy out there than can catch a fly ball. Watch Gathright play center for a game and tell me he doesn't have a chance to be one of the best defensive CF's in the game in the future

You win games by having better than MLB average players at positions. DeJesus is an above average CF. He'd be an average LF or RF at best. If Moore thinks Gaithright's D is so good that he'd be a better all-around CFer than DD, then trade DeJesus. DeJesus is waste as a corner OF. DeJesus could actually get us real talent in return because CFers that can hit are not easy to find. LF and RF who can hit ARE easy to find.

In my opinion, this trade is ludicrous if Gaithright or DeJesus is not dealt.

Cochise
06-20-2006, 06:23 PM
We'll see, if Cortez and/or Gathright develop and/or Howell doesn't, it's a good deal. Just no way to know right now.

We all wanted Dayton Moore, so the least we can do is give his moves a chance to play out.

Sure-Oz
06-20-2006, 06:30 PM
Well this is suprising move, but i like that we got major team speed added. This team won't hit HR's out of the park, but the Dejesus thing makes me wonder wtf we'll do with him. Interesting to say the least.

Infidel Goat
06-20-2006, 07:04 PM
I suspect that Moore is nostalgic for the days when Willie Wilson pushed Amos Otis out of centerfield.

I think the move is okay simply because Gaithright is only 25 and might develop a bit more.

Howell, I suppose, is only 23--but he's not going to gain any velocity on his fastball.

Truth be told, I don't think either team improved much either short or long term today though . . .

KChiefs1
06-20-2006, 07:12 PM
Uh...the days of Willie Wilson have returned.

KevB
06-20-2006, 07:34 PM
I guess having no high level prospects at pitcher is not much different than only having one.

That would be funny if it didn't make me so sad.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-20-2006, 08:07 PM
So...trading away your best pitching prospect (in the words of another poster) for a one-tool player is a good move...wow.

Reaper16
06-20-2006, 08:35 PM
Hmmmm. This was a lil bit shocking to me. I liked Howell, but probably only because our major league pitching is so terrible. This has a chance to be good, has a chance to be not so good. Two-for-one is pretty alright.
Interesting move for Dayton's 1st. "We're going to acquire pitching," etc. only to trade pitching.

ChiTown
06-20-2006, 08:43 PM
If you don't have great pitching, you might as well have great defense. I like this trade. We shall see..........

Sure-Oz
06-20-2006, 09:12 PM
Howell had a 4.75 era in AAA, we'll see how this goes...2 guys for 1 though, gathright can learn to hit we may have our leadoff man.

Mecca
06-20-2006, 09:25 PM
I don't personally think J.P. Howell will ever be a good major league pitcher. Guys with Gathrights speed don't come along everyday, I think this trade makes perfect sense.

beavis
06-20-2006, 09:37 PM
Howell had a 4.75 era in AAA, we'll see how this goes...2 guys for 1 though, gathright can learn to hit we may have our leadoff man.
I don't now what's been up with him the past year or so, but before then his numbers were great.

Dave Lane
06-20-2006, 09:43 PM
So...trading away your best pitching prospect (in the words of another poster) for a one-tool player is a good move...wow.

Joey hit .335 in AAA in 2004 so he's not some rummy at the plate the .201 for this year makes it seem that way. This is a great trade.

Dave

58-4ever
06-20-2006, 09:46 PM
We don't need any Longhorns on our squad anyway!

Cochise
06-20-2006, 09:58 PM
We don't need any Longhorns on our squad anyway!

ROFL

petegz28
06-20-2006, 10:20 PM
Gathright is a solid pick. He hit .250-.280 the yar before and is probably the fastes baserunner in baseball today. He is a steal for Howell!!!

Cochise
06-20-2006, 10:28 PM
I guess the reason why this doesn't make me too jittery is that Gathright has less to go before he's a justifiable major leaguer. He's got speed. He's got defense. Those things don't need to mature. It's only his bat.

With a pitcher who had kind of an inauspicious start last year and who's struggling in AAA somewhat, you feel like he needs a lot more work than someone who seems to have most of their game ironed out, but whose BA needs to come up.

petegz28
06-20-2006, 10:31 PM
I would make Sanders the DH and put DeJesus in Right Field rather than left because of his strong arm.

Short Leash Hootie
06-20-2006, 10:32 PM
I suspect that Moore is nostalgic for the days when Willie Wilson pushed Amos Otis out of centerfield.

I think the move is okay simply because Gaithright is only 25 and might develop a bit more.

Howell, I suppose, is only 23--but he's not going to gain any velocity on his fastball.

Truth be told, I don't think either team improved much either short or long term today though . . .
HGH...DUH

petegz28
06-20-2006, 10:35 PM
Gathright also plays to the youth movement especially if he replaces Sanders in the field. You have German as your startin 2nd basemen as soon as Grudz calls it quits if not sooner. You have Gordon and Huber coming up. This was definitely a move in the right direction.

sedated
06-20-2006, 10:39 PM
We have enough #5 pitchers on our team, what does it hurt to give up one?

Now we can put DeJesus where he belongs, batting 2nd and in the corner OF.

But I doubt this is the end for Moore. We can improve the pitching by trading Mientkiewicz, Sanders, Redman, Elarton, Sweeney?, Grudzielanek, Stairs, etc, etc, etc

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-20-2006, 10:49 PM
We have enough #5 pitchers on our team, what does it hurt to give up one?

Now we can put DeJesus where he belongs, batting 2nd and in the corner OF.

But I doubt this is the end for Moore. We can improve the pitching by trading Mientkiewicz, Sanders, Redman, Elarton, Sweeney?, Grudzielanek, Stairs, etc, etc, etc

A defensive first baseman w/ no pop (you'll get nothing in return)
Sanders is a 38 year old outfielder who can't hit a high fastball (which makes him poison in October)--you'll get nothing
Redman--maybe
Elarton--You'll get shit, he sucks.
Sweeney is done, you'll have to eat his whole salary and get nothing in return.
Grudz--Maybe a third tier prospect
Stairs--Worthless.

nychief
06-20-2006, 10:51 PM
A defensive first baseman w/ no pop (you'll get nothing in return)
Sanders is a 38 year old outfielder who can't hit a high fastball (which makes him poison in October)--you'll get nothing
Redman--maybe
Elarton--You'll get shit, he sucks.
Sweeney is done, you'll have to eat his whole salary and get nothing in return.
Grudz--Maybe a third tier prospect
Stairs--Worthless.


those are spare parts... you are right. They are tradable though, we can only hope we get a Doyle Alexander type of brian fart out of some GM.

Mosbonian
06-20-2006, 10:58 PM
Considering the really crappy pitching staff we have here in KC, if Howell was truly all that good, why wasn't he pitching for the parent club?

mmaddog
*******

sedated
06-20-2006, 11:02 PM
Considering the really crappy pitching staff we have here in KC, if Howell was truly all that good, why wasn't he pitching for the parent club?

mmaddog
*******

:bravo:

Reaper16
06-20-2006, 11:19 PM
Considering the really crappy pitching staff we have here in KC, if Howell was truly all that good, why wasn't he pitching for the parent club?

mmaddog
*******
Because we've ruined enough pitching prospects by rushing thier development.

kc rush
06-20-2006, 11:22 PM
DeJesus is a good defender, and just because he moves to the corner, that won't change.

All of the people complaining about DeJesus in the corner must not have seen Emil "The Butcher" Brown play defense. Improving the defense will help our shitty pitching.

KevB
06-20-2006, 11:27 PM
Considering the really crappy pitching staff we have here in KC, if Howell was truly all that good, why wasn't he pitching for the parent club?

mmaddog
*******

Because he was working himself back from injury.

Pitt Gorilla
06-20-2006, 11:28 PM
Wow, I like this deal. Of course, that usually means that it won't turn out well. Gaithright seemed to get on base at will against us and was immediately on second. Howell was pretty good, but we could really use the speed.

KevB
06-20-2006, 11:28 PM
DeJesus is a good defender, and just because he moves to the corner, that won't change.

All of the people complaining about DeJesus in the corner must not have seen Emil "The Butcher" Brown play defense. Improving the defense will help our shitty pitching.

It's not about his defense, which clearly is an upgrade over Emil. It's about becoming a truly competitive team, where you generally don't want a corner outfielder with little pop.

KevB
06-20-2006, 11:29 PM
Gaithright seemed to get on base at will against us

If that's all it takes to impress you, I'd imagine a trade for any offensive player we've played against recently would be deemed a good trade.
:)

kc rush
06-20-2006, 11:45 PM
It's not about his defense, which clearly is an upgrade over Emil. It's about becoming a truly competitive team, where you generally don't want a corner outfielder with little pop.

DeJesus isn't a home run hitter, but he can hit doubles. Given the size of our outfield, this team will be built on gap hitters and speed.

We'll have power in the corner infield soon with Gordon coming up, and assuming that Huber is moved back to first (after Dayton fires Bell and dumps his kid out of the first base position in Omaha). We also have some hitters in Butler, Lubanski, Maier.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-20-2006, 11:52 PM
DeJesus isn't a home run hitter, but he can hit doubles. Given the size of our outfield, this team will be built on gap hitters and speed.

We'll have power in the corner infield soon with Gordon coming up, and assuming that Huber is moved back to first (after Dayton fires Bell and dumps his kid out of the first base position in Omaha). We also have some hitters in Butler, Lubanski, Maier.

Since when was the K like PetCo Park??

Mecca
06-20-2006, 11:58 PM
Considering how bad every young player we've brought it up is.....Unless they're considered a can't miss guy I'm fine with trading them. To bad we didn't trade Jimmy Gobble and Jeremy Affeldt before everyone knew they sucked and had no value.

Mosbonian
06-20-2006, 11:59 PM
Because he was working himself back from injury.

While i don't doubt you are correct....I cannot find anywhere that states that...

mmaddog
*******

kc rush
06-21-2006, 12:08 AM
Since when was the K like PetCo Park??

The K (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauffman_Stadium) ):
Left - 330
L Center - 385
Center - 410
R Center - 385
Right - 330

PetCo (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETCO_Park)):
Left - 334
L Center - 367
L Alley - 402
Center - 392
R Alley - 402
Right - 382
R Line - 322

:hmmm:

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-21-2006, 12:16 AM
The K (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauffman_Stadium) ):
Left - 330
L Center - 385
Center - 410
R Center - 385
Right - 330

PetCo (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETCO_Park)):
Left - 334
L Center - 367
L Alley - 402
Center - 392
R Alley - 402
Right - 382
R Line - 322

:hmmm:

Not even close. Look at the disparity in park factors between the two.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/KCR/attend.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SDP/attend.shtml

tk13
06-21-2006, 12:30 AM
The ball carries better at the K for sure because it gets super hot in the summer, but we have a huge outfield. Ideally we'd have OF'ers who can run balls down and slap it down the lines and into the gaps for triples.

kc rush
06-21-2006, 01:01 AM
Not even close. Look at the disparity in park factors between the two.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/KCR/attend.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SDP/attend.shtml

So basically using this god awful-formula, KC is one of 13 (out of 30) "Pitchers Parks". It isn't as pitcher friendly as PetCo, but it is more friendly than the majority of the parks out there (17) and is equal to four other stadiums.

So the point still stands. Offensively, gap hitters and speed, and defensively a pitcher friendly park and speed in the defense will make this a better team.

Also, speed and average on offense is a lot cheaper than a big bopper. You can get a lot of production for the same cost with an offense that is constantly on base and running pitch counts up.

My opinion.

Cochise
06-21-2006, 01:03 AM
I've never heard of the K described as a pitcher's park before. Guess maybe it's a misconception, but I've never heard that.

tk13
06-21-2006, 01:14 AM
Yeah, that's an interesting discussion. I think it could be a pitcher's park... it's hard to keep the ball from carrying as hot as it gets. The fences are pretty deep though, especially toward center and the alleys. At least with the fences back, it's not as much of a home run park. I guess you can still hit the ball and it'll carry for extra bases, but with the fences deep it's not really a home run park. Evidenced by the fact that the team record is still 36 homers.

huskerdooz
06-21-2006, 01:16 AM
Nothing personal, but how can a guy who's hit .201 in 154 games be a good pickup? I mean, who COULDN'T hit .201?

Nothing personal but that was actually .201 in 154 ABs not games. If you check his career stats, he hit .275 in 201 ABs last season with 20 SBs. That's projectable to 50-60 SBs with 600 ABs.

I like this deal. As Dayton said in his news conference, the best way to improve your pitching is to improve your defense. It's not like we've got a rotation stacked with power arms that can get you plenty of Ks. This staff pretty much pitches to contact. It makes perfect sense to me that if you are going to have pitchers that allow the ball to be put in play, then you damn sure better have some fielders that can go get it and catch it. Dayton talks like DeJesus would move to LF and Reggie would stay in RF atleast until (if/when) he's dealt.

Furthermore, by adding team speed you add the ability to manufacture more runs. Not only by stealing a base here and there, but by being able to go from 1st to 3rd on a single. We obviously don't have alot of players at the major league level that are going to hit the ball out of the park, maybe we can get back to playing Royals baseball like it was done in the mid 70's and 80's. Those Royals teams always had players who were consistently among the league leaders in doubles including Brett, McRae (Hal), Otis, Cowens, Wilson, White. Maybe this is just the start of getting back to what has been proven to work in our ballpark.

DaneMcCloud
06-21-2006, 01:20 AM
Nothing personal but that was actually .201 in 154 ABs not games. If you check his career stats, he hit .275 in 201 ABs last season with 20 SBs. That's projectable to 50-60 SBs with 600 ABs.


Sweet. ESPN has changed their article since then, and that makes much more sense. Thanks for the correction. :thumb:

tk13
06-21-2006, 01:31 AM
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/25/Rays/Rays_tales.shtml

Rays tales
By MARC TOPKIN, Times Staff Writer
Published July 25, 2004

-----------------------------------------------

LEAP OF FAITH

Outfielder Joey Gathright is very fast. But he doesn't really like to run.

Despite sprinter speed (6.1 seconds in the 60-yard dash, 3.3 seconds home to first on a bunt), Gathright has never enjoyed running track, trying it briefly in eighth grade before deciding to stick to football and baseball.

Plus, he'd rather jump.

"I really like to do the long jump," Gathright said. "In eighth grade, I did about 23 feet. If I was working at it now, I think I could break the (world record of 29 feet, 41/2 inches held since 1991 by Mike Powell). But that's just me."

He tried the high jump but wasn't comfortable with the traditional form of going over the bar head and shoulders first. He really stood out as a 10th-grader when, on no more than a whim while waiting for a ride after football practice, he jumped over his coach's car.

From the driver side to the passenger side, right over the top.

"He goes back about 5-8 yards and kind of jogs up there," said Rays scout Benny Latino, who has seen a handful of jumps. "He lands on his feet almost like he hurdles it. It is something to see."

Gathright has made dozens of jumps but says he is "retired" now. He once jumped three consecutive cars, a feat caught on video that is in the hands of Rays minor-leaguer Fernando Cortez, a close friend.

"I've got to get that tape," Gathright said. "His big plan was that if I ever made it, he'd sell that tape to somebody."

cookster50
06-21-2006, 07:13 AM
CF is the only position where we had an above-average MLB player. DeJesus is a lot less valuable at a corner outfield position, and Gaithright has no value as a corner outfielder.

HAHAHAHA, thanks for the laugh. DeJesus is an above average CF?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

cookster50
06-21-2006, 07:26 AM
HAHAHAHA, thanks for the laugh. DeJesus is an above average CF?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
To qualify my statement, DeJesus may be a good defensive player, but isn't nearly good enough offensively to be considered an average outfielder, much less above average.

ImAWalkingCorpse
06-21-2006, 07:59 AM
One of the reasons the K isn't considered a pitchers park is because our pitching staff has sucked for over 10 years.

DJ's left nut
06-21-2006, 09:13 AM
Gathright is a good defensive CFer in the same way Bernie Williams was...which is to say that he isn't.

Gathright is fast, real fast, but he gets a terrible break on the ball. He can't read it well, can't go back on balls well and doesn't have a strong arm.

He is NOT a good defensive CFer, DeJesus is quite a bit better. Gathrights speed allows him to make up for some mistakes, but he gives it back with his terrible jumps on the ball.

FringeNC
06-21-2006, 09:28 AM
To qualify my statement, DeJesus may be a good defensive player, but isn't nearly good enough offensively to be considered an average outfielder, much less above average.

Name the CFers better than DeJesus. There are not fifteen of them, which makes DeJesus an above average CF. a CF in his first full season who puts up an OPS of greater than .800 is pretty good. The league average OPS is .750, and lower than that for a CFer.

Cochise
06-21-2006, 09:45 AM
DeJesus is an average to somewhat above average MLB player. All his tools could be classified as "fine, not great".

Gathright has great speed, but a worse bat, maybe not as good of a glove. The thing is that he has the one thing you can't learn, and is lacking two things that you can.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-21-2006, 10:43 AM
So basically using this god awful-formula, KC is one of 13 (out of 30) "Pitchers Parks". It isn't as pitcher friendly as PetCo, but it is more friendly than the majority of the parks out there (17) and is equal to four other stadiums.

So the point still stands. Offensively, gap hitters and speed, and defensively a pitcher friendly park and speed in the defense will make this a better team.

Also, speed and average on offense is a lot cheaper than a big bopper. You can get a lot of production for the same cost with an offense that is constantly on base and running pitch counts up.

My opinion.

Actually, it's a pretty accurate Sabermetric formula, and according to it, Kauffman is *not* a pitchers park, it's right in the middle. The last two years it has scored a 99 when 100 is dead neutral. On the other hand, Petco has scored a 90 and a 92, which places it among the lowest in the league. Kauffman is like the old Busch, a neutral venue for hitters and pitchers.

banyon
06-21-2006, 10:57 AM
Actually, it's a pretty accurate Sabermetric formula, and according to it, Kauffman is *not* a pitchers park, it's right in the middle. The last two years it has scored a 99 when 100 is dead neutral. On the other hand, Petco has scored a 90 and a 92, which places it among the lowest in the league. Kauffman is like the old Busch, a neutral venue for hitters and pitchers.

Kauffman is a pitcher's park, all you have to do is check the dimensions.

The only reason it has been hitter friendly in the offensive rankings lately is because opposing teams get to come in and tee off on our cavalcade of comedy that is supposed to be our pitching staff. It doesn't matter if Jose Lima is pitching on a golf course, his ERA is still going to blow up.

Dayton Moore knows what he is talking about on this, and his approach is a good idea so far, IMO.

DJ's left nut
06-21-2006, 11:19 AM
Park factor takes into account the strength of the home team's pitching staff and offense (by comparing their respective home/road splits).

It's not unassailable, but it is actually a pretty good formula. Dimensions are not all that matters, climate and wind patterns matter as well.

FringeNC
06-21-2006, 11:30 AM
DeJesus is an average to somewhat above average MLB player. All his tools could be classified as "fine, not great".

Gathright has great speed, but a worse bat, maybe not as good of a glove. The thing is that he has the one thing you can't learn, and is lacking two things that you can.

The only *offensive* number that really matters is OPS. Speed is very secondary. DeJesus' .800+ OPS is pretty good for a CF, and should only get a little better as he reaches his peak.

For those of you who think we Moneyball types are full of shit...try this...

Put team OPS and team per games run scored into Excel. Do an X-Y scatterplot, and you will be surprised. Virtually every team will be right near the line you could draw through the points. OPS explains close to 90% of the variation in runs scored. (And the remaining 10+% is mostly luck.)

Gathright could turn out to be a decent player, but he will have to have about a .750 OPS to be good. If he can do that, then his speed will transform an average major league player into a good one. But his speed alone is irrelevant if he puts up a .650 OPS. He will suck, and should not be starting.

I have my doubts about Gathright developing. He does seem to have a decent batting eye. His on-base percentage was good in the minors. Problem is, when you get to the majors, if you have absolutely no power, it's difficult to get walks because pitchers aren't afraid to throw strikes.

If Dayton Moore is as good as a talent-evaluator as his hype, then Gathright may very well develop into a solid MLer, but so far, he has sucked in the majors.

banyon
06-21-2006, 11:44 AM
The Braves were sort of the anti-Moneyball organization, and they've been pretty damn successful with that. With Moore, we'll probably lean that direction. There's a book called Scout's Honor that emphasizes their approach in contrast with the Moneyball approach.

The Yankees for years have also not been afraid to run.

chief2000
06-21-2006, 11:47 AM
Dayton's 810 comments mentioned defensive outfield speed.

The Royal's guy mentioned how big the park is.

The coach said that this team doesn't have any speed.

Petro mentioned rumor saying they could have had him in a trade for Blanco years back.

FringeNC
06-21-2006, 11:52 AM
The Braves were sort of the anti-Moneyball organization, and they've been pretty damn successful with that. With Moore, we'll probably lean that direction. There's a book called Scout's Honor that emphasizes their approach in contrast with the Moneyball approach.

The Yankees for years have also not been afraid to run.

My point is almost independent of the Moneyball vs. scouting debate, which is about projecting players. My point was much simpler: that the criterion by which to judge the offensive ability of current ballplayers is OPS. There is no getting around the fact that Gathright will have to have a decent OPS to be a good player. Now it was the moneyball types who did stress measures like OPS instead of batting average. That debate is now over for just about everyone outside of Joe Morgan (who ironically, was the type of player Moneyballers drool over).

Atlanta has not been stocked full of low OPS guys, by the way.

ChiTown
06-21-2006, 12:11 PM
We're so lucky to have SOOOOOOOOOOO many smart fkr's on this bb. "It's a hitter's park, it's a pitchers park, it's in between.........blah, blah, blah."

geezuschrist

It's a ball park. You hit, you run, you catch, you throw. If the kid adds speed and has a good glove, it's a dimension we don't currently possess on this team.

Speed kills. I like this deal.

banyon
06-21-2006, 01:04 PM
My point is almost independent of the Moneyball vs. scouting debate, which is about projecting players. My point was much simpler: that the criterion by which to judge the offensive ability of current ballplayers is OPS. There is no getting around the fact that Gathright will have to have a decent OPS to be a good player. Now it was the moneyball types who did stress measures like OPS instead of batting average. That debate is now over for just about everyone outside of Joe Morgan (who ironically, was the type of player Moneyballers drool over).

Atlanta has not been stocked full of low OPS guys, by the way.

There are values to speed that are not factored into OPS.

Far fewer GIDP's for example, or being able to go 1B-3B on a single. Also, having a legit base-stealing threat can put tremendous pressure on pitchers in close games.

kc rush
06-21-2006, 01:43 PM
Actually, it's a pretty accurate Sabermetric formula, and according to it, Kauffman is *not* a pitchers park, it's right in the middle. The last two years it has scored a 99 when 100 is dead neutral. On the other hand, Petco has scored a 90 and a 92, which places it among the lowest in the league. Kauffman is like the old Busch, a neutral venue for hitters and pitchers.

The Sabermetrics provide a nice base to discuss (I would never be able to create a statistical formula to take into account all of the variables they think of). However, if 100/100 is neutral and Kauffman is 99/99 in 2005 and was 95/96 in 2004, we can assume that it skews in favor of the pitchers.

We'll see if this particular trade was a good one in time, however, I do like the shift in philosophy.

FringeNC
06-21-2006, 02:38 PM
Here's what the guys at Baseball Prospectus said about Gathright:

Pure speed, unadulterated by anything, including a real ability to hit. Gathright's entire game is to get just enough of the ball to be able to outrun the throws to first; he's actually fast enough to often pull it off. In 1,047 professional at-bats, he has 22 doubles, five triples and no home runs. Playing in the heart of the dead-ball era, Roy Thomas, the standard bearer for all-time no-power hitting, hit 20 doubles, 10 triples, and one home run per 1047 at bats, giving Thomas a clear edge over Gathright. Tampa Bay loves his speed—as does every scout in the country—but to us he looks like Vince Coleman without the fireworks.

Dave Lane
06-21-2006, 02:59 PM
Here's what the guys at Baseball Prospectus said about Gathright:

Pure speed, unadulterated by anything, including a real ability to hit.


I stopped reading after this its all that really matters...

Dave

tk13
06-21-2006, 03:06 PM
I like OPS, and I like a lot of things about the "Moneyball" philosophy, but the one thing I really don't like is how they totally ignore speed. They can't quanitify it so they act like it doesn't matter. Which really is a bunch of crap. Even the Moneyball team that won, Boston, helped get themselves to the series behind a huge stolen base.

OPS does not measure speed. Sabermetricians can go on about how flawed certain things are when their prize offensive stat doesn't even measure the speed of a leadoff hitter. It measures if he gets on base and the power with which he hits the ball, but not the havoc he can cause on the basepaths.

KevB
06-21-2006, 03:15 PM
In 1,047 professional at-bats, he has 22 doubles, five triples and no home runs.

Is this right? Good grief, you'd think he'd hit a few ground balls down the line that would result in a double or triple with his speed. Wow. That is the definition of not having any "pop". I think I could have accidently hit 22 doubles in the minors given 1000+ ABs.

Infidel Goat
06-21-2006, 03:21 PM
A few years ago, I remember Rob Neyer suggesting that a better predictor of offensive performance than OPS would be something like the following: [(1.4 * OBP) + SLG]. I know that we will never go to this system because it's too much math, but it might suggest that the value of a guy like Gaithright might be undervalued using OPS because it either overvalues SLG or undervalues OBP.

--Infidel Goat

Infidel Goat
06-21-2006, 03:23 PM
A few years ago, I remember Rob Neyer suggesting that a better predictor of offensive performance than OPS would be something like the following: [(1.4 * OBP) + SLG]. I know that we will never go to this system because it's too much math, but it might suggest that the value of a guy like Gaithright might be undervalued using OPS because it either overvalues SLG or undervalues OBP.


Of course, Rob Neyer HATES this trade . . .

shakesthecat
06-21-2006, 03:26 PM
When I first saw this in the paper this morning, I thought "holy crap!"
Now that I've had time to digest it a little more, I'm neither excited nor upset about it.

KC didn't get much, and it didn't cost them much to get it.

Of course, anything that gets E. Brown off the field is a good thing.


Welcome to Hell, Joey!

kc rush
06-21-2006, 03:32 PM
...but to us he looks like Vince Coleman without the fireworks.

That cracked me up. ROFL

FringeNC
06-21-2006, 03:42 PM
I like OPS, and I like a lot of things about the "Moneyball" philosophy, but the one thing I really don't like is how they totally ignore speed. They can't quanitify it so they act like it doesn't matter. Which really is a bunch of crap. Even the Moneyball team that won, Boston, helped get themselves to the series behind a huge stolen base.

OPS does not measure speed. Sabermetricians can go on about how flawed certain things are when their prize offensive stat doesn't even measure the speed of a leadoff hitter. It measures if he gets on base and the power with which he hits the ball, but not the havoc he can cause on the basepaths.

Work has been done, and all of it shows speed is second-order (for offense). Gathright could be a nice player, but he has to have a decent OBP. The old-adage that you can't steal first is applicable here. His speed can make up for his low SLG, to a certain extent, but if he has an Angel Berroa-like OBP, no amount of speed is going to make him any more than a late-inning D replacement.

If he has a .400 OBP, then he'll be a valuable player. If he has a .325 OBP, he is not an everyday player. He has to have a high enough OBP to make his speed relevant.

Look at team-by-team runs scored and stolen bases, and tell me there is any type of meaningful positive correlation there. There simply is NOT.

The Royals back in the glory days had a lot speed, but people forget they were near the top of the league in OBP, too, not to mention good pitching, too. (Edit: amazingly, near the top in SLG %, too some years.) The Royals were not scoring a lot of men because of base-stealing smoke-and-mirrors, but because of a high OPS, just like teams today.

tk13
06-21-2006, 04:17 PM
I think there's a legitimate question about his ability to hit, and I agree you can't steal first. I never said there was a direct correlation between stolen bases and scoring runs. I said OPS underrates speed. It's hard to quantify. There are so many different scenarios in which speed can both help and hurt your team. If a guy goes from first to third on a single with one out, instead of station to station, then maybe you can knock him in with a sac fly. Where does that fit into OPS? It doesn't.

OPS is a good stat, and I think it definitely has importance, but I think it's more relevant to a team like the A's than a team who is centered around speed. The Royals did have some good OPS teams, but the one that actually won the World Series in 1985 finished dead last in the American League in OBP. Dead last. Obviously pitching had something to do with that, and that's why pitching should come first obviously.

I don't think it hurts to have a couple speedsters. There might not be a direct correlation between steals and record but the teams who end up winning often has some stolen base threats. The White Sox had Podsednik last year, the Marlins had Juan Pierre, even the Red Sox had Dave Roberts who was huge in the playoffs, the Angels stole a lot of bases, the D'backs had Tony Womack.

Joe Morgan gets slagged a lot, and I don't agree with everything he says, but I do think he promotes making things happen. That's his big thing. Really to him, the "Moneyball" philosophy is a lot like Martyball. Just go station to station and wait for the other team to make a mistake and pound a three run homer. He prefers to be aggressive and make things happen. Both sides have their merits, I honestly think there's more than one way to skin a cat in baseball, you just have to be good at the philosophy you try to carry out.

FringeNC
06-21-2006, 04:21 PM
I think there's a legitimate question about his ability to hit, and I agree you can't steal first. I never said there was a direct correlation between stolen bases and scoring runs. I said OPS underrates speed. It's hard to quantify. There are so many different scenarios in which speed can both help and hurt your team. If a guy goes from first to third on a single with one out, instead of station to station, then maybe you can knock him in with a sac fly. Where does that fit into OPS? It doesn't.

OPS is a good stat, and I think it definitely has importance, but I think it's more relevant to a team like the A's than a team who is centered around speed. The Royals did have some good OPS teams, but the one that actually won the World Series in 1985 finished dead last in the American League in OBP. Dead last. Obviously pitching had something to do with that, and that's why pitching should come first obviously.

I don't think it hurts to have a couple speedsters. There might not be a direct correlation between steals and record but the teams who end up winning often has some stolen base threats. The White Sox had Podsednik last year, the Marlins had Juan Pierre, even the Red Sox had Dave Roberts who was huge in the playoffs, the Angels stole a lot of bases, the D'backs had Tony Womack.

Joe Morgan gets slagged a lot, and I don't agree with everything he says, but I do think he promotes making things happen. That's his big thing. Really to him, the "Moneyball" philosophy is a lot like Martyball. Just go station to station and wait for the other team to make a mistake and pound a three run homer. He prefers to be aggressive and make things happen. Both sides have their merits, I honestly think there's more than one way to skin a cat in baseball, you just have to be good at the philosophy you try to carry out.

Just thought of something. I'm sure it's been looked at by someone, but speed should certainly be more important in close games. Do teams that steal a lot of bases have better records in one-run games?

beavis
06-21-2006, 04:28 PM
Just thought of something. I'm sure it's been looked at by someone, but speed should certainly be more important in close games. Do teams that steal a lot of bases have better records in one-run games?
This occured to me too, given our inability to win one run games in the past. A stolen base might be the difference.

Cochise
06-21-2006, 04:31 PM
OPS doesn't capture a lot of things like bases added by stolen bases, runs resulting in stolen bases, runs that would have been left at 3B (sic) if not for an extra base taken on a hit, or the number of times someone's speed keeps an FC from turning into a double play. It doesn't take into account the effect the player has on the game when the defense is thinking that the fastest guy in the league is at the plate, or on first base what it takes away from the pitcher.

He draws a few walks too, in fact this year he walked twice as many times in less games as last year so maybe his plate discipline is improving. 20 walks in 150 ABs is a pace that would have him leading our current lineup in walks, probably by a comfortable margin.

tk13
06-21-2006, 04:49 PM
Just thought of something. I'm sure it's been looked at by someone, but speed should certainly be more important in close games. Do teams that steal a lot of bases have better records in one-run games?

I'm honestly not sure if there'd be a correlation or not. In the NL last year, there really wasn't, It was about even... in the AL there was. Teams like Tampa Bay and Seattle had horrible records but were good in 1 run games. I'm not sure that'd hold up long term because bullpens are important too. Only 5 teams in the AL stole 100 bases last year.

Top 5 SB teams in AL: 413-397, .510

Top 5 SB teams in 1 run games: 150-123, .549

Not sure if that really means anything or not. You'd have to go back and look through a lot of numbers... plus consider how good the bullpen was at holding that lead, yadda yadda.

Cochise
06-21-2006, 08:43 PM
Speaking of OPS - Teahen's is .796 since he was called back up.

tk13
06-21-2006, 08:47 PM
See, right there. Speed gives you a run. Gathright singled. I don't know if he was moving on the pitch or not, but DeJesus grounded out, they had to go to first and take the out there. So now Gathright's in scoring position due to his speed. Grudz comes up, singles.. blammo, we're on the board. That's obviously not the only way to score runs but scoring runs that way is hard to quantify.

Cochise
06-21-2006, 08:50 PM
They said on the radio he was indeed running on that pitch, tk.

Now we're a hit away from tying the game after the inning started 4-0. But if you have a normal Royals slowmo runner there, it's a double play.

I hope speed can keep being the sparkplug like it has this inning.

tk13
06-21-2006, 09:05 PM
Gathright leads off an inning for the first time and we bat around and score 4 runs. Now he gets to do it again next inning. If we score 4 more runs we're obviously the greatest baseball team ever now.

Cochise
06-21-2006, 09:19 PM
Start printing... er... something...

Cochise
06-21-2006, 09:20 PM
I know. START PRINTING GATHRIGHT TSHIRT JERSEYS!

Cochise
06-21-2006, 09:23 PM
Now he lead off the inning bunting for a base hit.

Saulbadguy
06-21-2006, 09:28 PM
Hell of a catch by Emil Brown.

tk13
06-21-2006, 09:37 PM
Teahen with the homer! Royals lead again! WOOOO! Maybe we should play in the national league. Teahen is becoming a hitter.

Sure-Oz
06-21-2006, 09:38 PM
Teahan definetly has some confidence in hitting now, he stays back just a tad more, def. a huge diff. its good to see some power too!

SPchief
06-21-2006, 09:42 PM
I was trying to figure out why there was no game thread, and boom here it is.

Cochise
06-21-2006, 09:43 PM
Boy, did the light come on for Teahen in Omaha or what?

SPchief
06-21-2006, 09:50 PM
WOOT WOOT

Pitt Gorilla
06-21-2006, 10:11 PM
The Gaithright era has begun!

Sure-Oz
06-21-2006, 10:24 PM
I still dont get why you try to bunt gathright to 2nd? why not *gasp* let the flyer try to steal it!! Buddy Bell is a moron sometimes.

kc rush
06-21-2006, 10:32 PM
Buddy Bell is a moron sometimes.

Sometimes???

KChiefs1
06-21-2006, 10:41 PM
I still dont get why you try to bunt gathright to 2nd? why not *gasp* let the flyer try to steal it!! Buddy Bell is a moron sometimes.

I didn't understand that either. You have a guy who can easily steal 2nd without giving up an out. You have him on 2nd with no outs, but Buddy being Buddy decides that it doesn't matter if the guy on 1st is the fastest guy in MLB & could steal 2nd standing up.

When will Dayton Moore decide he has seen enough of Buddy Dumb Bell?

Sure-Oz
06-21-2006, 11:09 PM
Sometimes???
sorry i had a lapse, like all the ****in time LOL

Sure-Oz
06-21-2006, 11:09 PM
I didn't understand that either. You have a guy who can easily steal 2nd without giving up an out. You have him on 2nd with no outs, but Buddy being Buddy decides that it doesn't matter if the guy on 1st is the fastest guy in MLB & could steal 2nd standing up.

When will Dayton Moore decide he has seen enough of Buddy Dumb Bell?
he'll let him finish out the year im sure, then hunt for a real manager during the offseason.

JohnnyV13
06-22-2006, 02:43 PM
I've never heard of the K described as a pitcher's park before. Guess maybe it's a misconception, but I've never heard that.

You're not old enough. At one time, Royal's Stadium (before it was called the K) always rated last in runs scored in the American League. The only park which had fewer runs scored in the 70's and 80's was the Astrodome in Houston, and that was an N.L. park in which pitchers hit.

The current configuration is very much like old Royal's Stadium, except the fences were 12 feet instead of 8 feet tall. When the Royals removed the astroturf, they moved the fences in 10 feet and lowered the fences. Then Allard Baird moved the fences back out (on the idea that a "defense park" was more cost effective b/c players who thrive in such an environment are cheaper).

tk13
06-22-2006, 02:54 PM
Just a heads up to start stocking canned goods and head to a shelter. Angel Berroa just took a walk. The end is near.

Sure-Oz
06-22-2006, 05:59 PM
Berroa also made a great error, this douch bag needs to be traded, probably the royal i dislike the most.

Mr. Laz
06-22-2006, 06:09 PM
so far the trade looks pretty good ......


Joey Gathright looks a little bit like a young kenny lofton.

Cochise
06-22-2006, 06:21 PM
so far the trade looks pretty good ......


Joey Gathright looks a little bit like a young kenny lofton.

They talked about that a lot on the postgame last night, how the Indians team of the 90s all started with Lofton coming up, and then the rest of all that talent kind of followed him to the majors. Manny Ramirez, etc.

Hopefully Gathright can deveop Lofton's hitting for average