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View Full Version : Chiefs rank 11th and 3rd...


bobbything
06-29-2006, 09:06 AM
...in QB's and RB's (respectively)

I know these rankings "don't mean anything," but since theres's little to talk about...

The Chiefs rank 11th out of 32 teams in Quarterback rankings (per ESPN.com):

1. Colts
2. Pats
3. Steelers
4. Bengals
5. Seahags
6. Iggles
7. Panthers
8. Saints
9. Dolphins
10. Packers

I would put KC ahead of Cinci, Seattle, Miami, Green Bay, and New Orleans. They should be ranked #5. Plus, guys like Brees and Culpepper are new to their respective teams. Favre threw about 30 INT's last season.

KC ranks 3rd in RB's:

1. Seattle
2. San Diego
3. KC

Hard to argue. All three of these could be interchangeable though.

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 09:11 AM
Both Seattle and SD have great FB's. If only we hadn't lost ours...

Putting the Saints ahead of KC is just laughable.

penguinz
06-29-2006, 09:12 AM
We don;t need no stinkin FB.

Brock
06-29-2006, 09:13 AM
Both Seattle and SD have great FB's. If only we hadn't lost ours...

Putting the Saints ahead of KC is just laughable.

Are you questioning Hall of Famer Reggie Bush?

sedated
06-29-2006, 09:14 AM
I was under the impression we were 5th and 2nd :shrug:

DaKCMan AP
06-29-2006, 09:15 AM
We should be ahead of Pitt, Cincy, Seattle, Carolina, NO, and Miami at QB.

Roethlisberger is NOT the reason the Steelers won the SB. He can manage the game, but he's not going to win it for you.

That would put us at #5.

Hassellbeck and Delhomme have been solid, but I'd take Trent.

Palmer, Brees and Culpepper are all coming off of injury. Plus I'd rate Green ahead of a healthy Brees.

KCTitus
06-29-2006, 09:15 AM
We don;t need no stinkin FB.

Ban him.

SNR
06-29-2006, 10:52 AM
We should be #1 at RBs. Haven't those fools ever heard of Kris Wilson? :cuss:

DaKCMan AP
06-29-2006, 10:53 AM
We should be #1 at RBs. Haven't those fools ever heard of Kris Wilson? :cuss:

shhh..he's a SECRET weapon

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 10:56 AM
shhh..he's a SECRET weapon

I found Kris Wilson!...oh....I found Kris Wilson

StcChief
06-29-2006, 10:58 AM
Are you questioning Hall of Famer Reggie Bush?

ROFL Hasn't rushed for 1 yard yet.... Hey Reggie break a leg

KCTitus
06-29-2006, 11:44 AM
We should be #1 at RBs. Haven't those fools ever heard of Kris Wilson? :cuss:

LOL...I cant stop giggling about this one.

greg63
06-29-2006, 11:47 AM
Both Seattle and SD have great FB's. If only we hadn't lost ours...

Putting the Saints ahead of KC is just laughable.


Agreed!

Rain Man
06-29-2006, 11:51 AM
Are you questioning Hall of Famer Reggie Bush?

He's on pace to be either the next Barry Sanders or the next Ki-Jana Carter, but I don't quite have enough data yet to draw a conclusion.

CupidStunt
06-29-2006, 11:59 AM
Even though he's often overrated, particulary with Steeler fans, i'd take Roethlisberger over Green. And that's not just because of his youth either.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 12:22 PM
My grandma got 1st and 3rd in the boobie contest.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 01:09 PM
We should be ahead of Pitt, Cincy, Seattle, Carolina, NO, and Miami at QB.

Roethlisberger is NOT the reason the Steelers won the SB. He can manage the game, but he's not going to win it for you.

That would put us at #5.

Hassellbeck and Delhomme have been solid, but I'd take Trent.

Palmer, Brees and Culpepper are all coming off of injury. Plus I'd rate Green ahead of a healthy Brees.


How many playoff games has Ben won?
Green?
The definition you give for Ben, "He can manage the game, but he's not going to win it for you" is MUCH more applicable to Green.

Ben has absolutely tore the NFL up since he arrived and if he recovers from that moronic motorcycle accident has many grat years ahead of him.

Green has been consistent though not spectacular and is in the twilight of his career.

Why on earth would you rank Green ahead of Ben other than the fact you like Green better?

CupidStunt
06-29-2006, 01:24 PM
Playoff wins for one player is overrated. Green rides the running game that Ben does but he doesn't have a defense in the same class as Pittsburgh's.

Green would have a playoff win or two if he played for a team like Denver or Pittsburgh.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 01:29 PM
Playoff wins for one player is overrated. Green rides the running game that Ben does but he doesn't have a defense in the same class as Pittsburgh's.

Green would have a playoff win or two if he played for a team like Denver or Pittsburgh.

If they can't use actual achievements as a measuring stick then what do you reccomend? How about career winning percentage?

Do you think that would/shoulda/coulda is enough to rank Green ahead of Ben in the article mentioned in the post subject?

Green is a fine QB. At this stage of their respective careers IMO Ben is better.

bobbything
06-29-2006, 01:34 PM
Why on earth would you rank Green ahead of Ben other than the fact you like Green better?
Put Green on Pitt's team and you've got a SB winning QB.

If you're ranking Rothasd;jfas;dkjwwwee ahead of Green just based on playoff wins, then that can be misleading as to who the "better" QB is (case in point: Trent Dilfer). Right now, I'd take Green any day of the week. You put Ben on the Chiefs squad and you've got yourself a 5 win team at best.....in my opinion.

Gimme Green.

CupidStunt
06-29-2006, 01:37 PM
Do you think that would/shoulda/coulda is enough to rank Green ahead of Ben in the article mentioned in the post subject?


As stated, I would take Ben over Green.

I just wouldn't do it because he has a couple of playoff wins. That plays a part, but in direct comparison, it plays only a small part.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 01:42 PM
As stated, I would take Ben over Green.

I just wouldn't do it because he has a couple of playoff wins. That plays a part, but in direct comparison, it plays only a small part.

No way. Ben fits in the Steelers offense where he doesn't have to do very much, IMO. He wouldn't fit it a KC offense where you have to have brain. You can't say Ben has more a brain than Green.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 01:50 PM
No way. Ben fits in the Steelers offense where he doesn't have to do very much, IMO. He wouldn't fit it a KC offense where you have to have brain. You can't say Ben has more a brain than Green.

No offense but it seems you are having a hard time being objective.
Green would get murdered in the Pitt. offense. He doesn't have the legs to make plays that Ben has nor does he have the arm strength Ben uses to create completions.

To say Ben doesn't have a brain is simply stupid. The guy sets an all-time win streak as a ROOKIE QB and he doesn't have brains?
Do you have any idea what it takes to grasp an NFL system, even the limited one they gave Ben his first year?

It's not an insult to Green but a recognition of Ben's ability. Green had a fine career and is almost finished; Ben has just begun if he is lucky enough to recover from his idiotic accident.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 01:50 PM
As stated, I would take Ben over Green.

I just wouldn't do it because he has a couple of playoff wins. That plays a part, but in direct comparison, it plays only a small part.

Understood and agreed. I was only using playoff wins in the context of how many he has over such a short career. They are one factor among many.

Thig Lyfe
06-29-2006, 01:55 PM
I was under the impression we were 5th and 2nd :shrug:

We are. I don't know where 11 and 3 came from.

Count Zarth
06-29-2006, 01:59 PM
Come talk to me when Ben is expected to throw the ball 30 times a game.

Moooo
06-29-2006, 02:02 PM
My grandma got 1st and 3rd in the boobie contest.

So how does that work... is one like better than the other?

Anyway, I don't see Alexander having the same season as last year. Just the fact that its very rare to find a person have two record years back to back tells me he would be lower than LT and LJ.

Moooo

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 02:05 PM
So how does that work... is one like better than the other?

Anyway, I don't see Alexander having the same season as last year. Just the fact that its very rare to find a person have two record years back to back tells me he would be lower than LT and LJ.

Moooo

One boob is bigger than the other. Hence, she got 1st and 3rd in the tittie size contest.

Moooo
06-29-2006, 02:12 PM
One boob is bigger than the other. Hence, she got 1st and 3rd in the tittie size contest.

Aaaaah, okay...

Moooo

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 02:17 PM
No offense but it seems you are having a hard time being objective.
Green would get murdered in the Pitt. offense. He doesn't have the legs to make plays that Ben has nor does he have the arm strength Ben uses to create completions.

To say Ben doesn't have a brain is simply stupid. The guy sets an all-time win streak as a ROOKIE QB and he doesn't have brains?
Do you have any idea what it takes to grasp an NFL system, even the limited one they gave Ben his first year?

It's not an insult to Green but a recognition of Ben's ability. Green had a fine career and is almost finished; Ben has just begun if he is lucky enough to recover from his idiotic accident.

Green most certainly wouldn't get murdered in Pitt. He's a much better QB than Big Ben. Green would be relaxed on the Steelers. Just because he isn't a big redneck type QB (Ben, Bradshaw) doesn't mean he would get murdered. Trent has a much more complicated offense to run and he runs it well. Ben is expected to hand the ball off and throw 10 times for 130 yards. Ben is an idiot (making him seem not very smart). We'll see this year when Ben actually has to do something.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 02:23 PM
So how does that work... is one like better than the other?

Anyway, I don't see Alexander having the same season as last year. Just the fact that its very rare to find a person have two record years back to back tells me he would be lower than LT and LJ.

Moooo


I see that TD record changing tons of times in the next few years. Offenses are becoming so much better than they used to be and the RB takes a huge crunk of the offensive output. Alexander will be nothing without Willie Roaf-like Hutchinson.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 02:24 PM
Green most certainly wouldn't get murdered in Pitt. He's a much better QB than Big Ben. Green would be relaxed on the Steelers. Just because he isn't a big redneck type QB (Ben, Bradshaw) doesn't mean he would get murdered. Trent has a much more complicated offense to run and he runs it well. Ben is expected to hand the ball off and throw 10 times for 130 yards. Ben is an idiot (making him seem not very smart). We'll see this year when Ben actually has to do somethings.

Green is 36, never sniffed back-to-back playoff wins, has a medium strength arm, a good locker room guy, has a high football IQ, and will never be considered for the HOF. I like Green and in his prime I would have been okay with him playing for my team.

Ben is in his mid 20s, went deep in the playoffs his first year, SB champ his second, has a very strong arm, good scrambling ability, good football IQ, strong leader, and will be a HOF candidate with a couple more years similar to his first two.

I'm sorry you are butt-hurt over Ben to the point of calling him names but the facts are the facts.
Saying Ben is the better QB is not taking anything away from Green.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 02:27 PM
Come talk to me when Ben is expected to throw the ball 30 times a game.

Stay away from me gimp or I"ll cram you back in the locker for a couple of days. Shouldn't you be sucking crank and begging for attention over at whoretaintirritated.suk?

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 02:33 PM
Green is 36, never sniffed back-to-back playoff wins, has a medium strength arm, a good locker room guy, has a high football IQ, and will never be considered for the HOF.

Ben is in his mid 20s, went deep in the playoffs his first year, SB champ his second, has a very strong arm, good scrambling ability, good football IQ, strong leader, and will be a HOF candidate with a couple more years similar to his first two.

I'm sorry you are butt-hurt over Ben to the point of calling him names but the facts are the facts.
Saying Ben is the better QB is not taking anything away from Green.


I'm talking about right now. Big Ben might be in the HOF, but he doesn't do half of Green does for his team. I think what defines how good a QB does is what he does for his team. I'm understand that Ben has done so much for the steelers. Ben has had the tools to win and has done it. Green hasn't had the tools and has done what he could. How do you define a good QB?

vailpass
06-29-2006, 02:40 PM
I'm talking about right now. Big Ben might be in the HOF, but he doesn't do half of Green does for his team. I think what defines how good a QB does is what he does for his team. I'm understand that Ben has done so much for the steelers. Ben has had the tools to win and has done it. Green hasn't had the tools and has done what he could. How do you define a good QB?

I don't think we are that far apart now tht you explain your view. IMHO a good QB is one who leads with an iron will to win, knows the strengths of all of his players and plays to those strengths in such a way as to create rhythm and motion on offense and get maximum production form his players. He gives his offense an identity. He plays hurt. He has 100% attendance at all off-season training sessions especially the "optional" sessions.

A good QB is the interface between coaches and players. He is at his best in big games especially post-season. If a QB enters the huddle when his team is down 6 with 2 minutes to play and his players KNOW they are going to win the game because he is their QB, that is a good QB.

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 02:47 PM
I don't think we are that far apart now tht you explain your view. IMHO a good QB is one who leads with an iron will to win, knows the strengths of all of his players and plays to those strengths in such a way as to create rhythm and motion on offense and get maximum production form his players.

A good QB is the interface between coaches and players. He is at his best in big games especially post-season. If a QB enters the huddle when his team is down 6 with 2 minutes to play and his players KNOW they are going to win the game because he is their QB, that is a good QB.

Trent Green fits every single one of those criteria.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 02:49 PM
Trent Green fits every single one of those criteria.

With the exception of post-season performance (he hasn't had a chance) I agree with you. At no time has my point been that Green isn't good; I'm saying Ben is very good.

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 02:51 PM
With the exception of post-season performance (he hasn't had a chance) I agree with you. At no time has my point been that Green isn't good; I'm saying Ben is very good.

Trent Green fits every one of those criteria. The only thing that you ever mention separating Ben from Green is the playoffs. The reason the Chiefs have not won in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Trent Green. And the main reason Ben has been in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Ben Roethlisberger.

Defense is king in the NFL.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 02:55 PM
I don't think we are that far apart now tht you explain your view. IMHO a good QB is one who leads with an iron will to win, knows the strengths of all of his players and plays to those strengths in such a way as to create rhythm and motion on offense and get maximum production form his players.

A good QB is the interface between coaches and players. He is at his best in big games especially post-season. If a QB enters the huddle when his team is down 6 with 2 minutes to play and his players KNOW they are going to win the game because he is their QB, that is a good QB.

I agree. I just feel that Green hasn't had the opportunities that Ben has had to be that great QB. Basically, what we're saying is the way you define a player is how they handle adversity. Green has had to fight through the adversities all his life with injuries, and even fighting to make teams.

Yes, Ben has taken his team to the SuperBowl. He leads his team with the will to win and he identifies the players skills and weaknesses. But he has had the opportunity to win. Green has fought harder and handled even more adversity than any QB in the league.

You tell me who's better?

bobbything
06-29-2006, 02:59 PM
Ben has done exactly what was asked of him. He's not asked to run a system like the Chiefs. If they were, it would probably take him more time to learn it. So, he probably wouldn't be as successful.

I believe that if you were to swap QB's right now (Roethlisberger to KC and Green to Pitt), you'd see much more of a drop in production and team wins with Roethlisberger than you would with Green in Pittsburgh. Primarily because the Steelers don't require as much from their QB as the Chiefs do. Green could handle a smaller load while Ben, not yet anyway, couldn't handle the QB load here in KC.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 03:01 PM
Ben has done exactly what was asked of him. He's not asked to run a system like the Chiefs. If they were, it would probably take him more time to learn it. So, he probably wouldn't be as successful.

I believe that if you were to swap QB's right now (Roethlisberger to KC and Green to Pitt), you'd see much more of a drop in production and team wins with Roethlisberger than you would with Green in Pittsburgh. Primarily because the Steelers don't require as much from their QB as the Chiefs do. Green could handle a smaller load while Ben, not yet anyway, couldn't handle the QB load here in KC.


I agree.

Moooo
06-29-2006, 03:03 PM
Ben has done exactly what was asked of him. He's not asked to run a system like the Chiefs. If they were, it would probably take him more time to learn it. So, he probably wouldn't be as successful.

I believe that if you were to swap QB's right now (Roethlisberger to KC and Green to Pitt), you'd see much more of a drop in production and team wins with Roethlisberger than you would with Green in Pittsburgh. Primarily because the Steelers don't require as much from their QB as the Chiefs do. Green could handle a smaller load while Ben, not yet anyway, couldn't handle the QB load here in KC.

DING DING!

Moooo

58-4ever
06-29-2006, 03:06 PM
Trent Green fits every one of those criteria. The only thing that you ever mention separating Ben from Green is the playoffs. The reason the Chiefs have not won in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Trent Green. And the main reason Ben has been in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Ben Roethlisberger.

Defense is king in the NFL.


:clap:

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:10 PM
Trent Green fits every one of those criteria. The only thing that you ever mention separating Ben from Green is the playoffs. The reason the Chiefs have not won in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Trent Green. And the main reason Ben has been in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Ben Roethlisberger.

Defense is king in the NFL.

Once more: I like Green. I would have been okay with having him instead of Griese. I'm just stating the facts or rather my opinion of what constitutes facts as to why I would rate Ben higher thatn Green.

Trent's best days are behind him, he is approaching the end of his career. Ben is young and at the beginning. At this point in time Ben's ability far outstrips Green's. Arm strength, footspeed/scramble ability, plays outside of the pocket are all areas in which Ben is superior to Green as he is today at 36.

IMO playoff success counts. Ben has proven himself, in back to back seasons on footballs biggest stages including the SB, to be a QB who wins games.
The coulda/shoulda/woulda may all be true but if there is a SB Winner's lounge at the airport Green can't get in, Ben can. Whatever support he may have had from his D Ben was still the starting QB on a SB winner in his second year in the league. To say being in the SB has zero to do wtih Ben is hating; I would not expect that from you.

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 03:15 PM
Once more: I like Green. I would have been okay with having him instead of Griese. I'm just stating the facts or rather my opinion of what constitutes facts as to why I would rate Ben higher thatn Green.

Trent's best days are behind him, he is approaching the end of his career. Ben is young and at the beginning. At this point in time Ben's ability far outstrips Green's. Arm strength, footspeed/scramble ability, plays outside of the pocket are all areas in which Ben is superior to Green as he is today at 36.

IMO playoff success counts. Ben has proven himself, in back to back seasons on footballs biggest stages including the SB, to be a QB who wins games.
The coulda/shoulda/woulda may all be true but if there is a SB Winner's lounge at the airport Green can't get in, Ben can. Whatever support he may have had from his D Ben was still the starting QB on a SB winner in his second year in the league. To say being in the SB has zero to do wtih Ben is hating; I would not expect that from you.

I didn't say Ben had zero to do with being in the Super Bowl. I said he had zero to do with the primary reason he played in the Super Bowl.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:16 PM
Ben has done exactly what was asked of him. He's not asked to run a system like the Chiefs. If they were, it would probably take him more time to learn it. So, he probably wouldn't be as successful.

I believe that if you were to swap QB's right now (Roethlisberger to KC and Green to Pitt), you'd see much more of a drop in production and team wins with Roethlisberger than you would with Green in Pittsburgh. Primarily because the Steelers don't require as much from their QB as the Chiefs do. Green could handle a smaller load while Ben, not yet anyway, couldn't handle the QB load here in KC.

IMO Green would get broken in half without the O-line he has now. LJ may very well get Green killed this year.
At this point in his career Trent is a statue.
Ben creates outsid of the pocket in the Pitt. Offense. Ben is younger, stronger, faster. I'm not knocking Green; I'm complimenting Ben.

How much more of a work load does Trent have when he has a RB who goes for 100 yards 9 games in a row and, before that, one of the hottest RBs in the NFL in Priest?

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 03:17 PM
FYI, it doesn't matter how old Trent is vs. how old Ben is.

ESPN's goal wasn't to select the QB you'd most like to build a team around. It was to decide who is the best at THIS POINT IN TIME.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:20 PM
I didn't say Ben had zero to do with being in the Super Bowl. I said he had zero to do with the primary reason he played in the Super Bowl.


QUOTE=htismaqe] And the main reason Ben has been in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Ben Roethlisberger.QUOTE]


Sorry, I see what you mean. Ben doesn't play D.

Pitt's D was not the dominant D of the Steelers of old last year and Ben was a very big part of that play. Their O production has gone way up since Ben arrived.

I realize this board is not the best place to expect agreement that Ben should be ranked higher than Green.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:21 PM
FYI, it doesn't matter how old Trent is vs. how old Ben is.

ESPN's goal wasn't to select the QB you'd most like to build a team around. It was to decide who is the best at THIS POINT IN TIME.

At this point in time Green's best days are behind him. Neither his arm strength nor his mobility are at their peak.

The opposite is true of Ben.

bobbything
06-29-2006, 03:22 PM
The coulda/shoulda/woulda may all be true but if there is a SB Winner's lounge at the airport Green can't get in, Ben can.
Touche. However, Roethlisberger could also be sipping margaritas with Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, and Brad Johnson. While Dan Marino and Peyton Manning are staring through that window in envy.

bobbything
06-29-2006, 03:32 PM
Neither his arm strength nor his mobility are at their peak.
Even at his "peak" these were never his strong points.

Again, who is more important to his team right now? Green or Roethlisberger. In my opinion, you could easily rank QB's like that. Their value to their respective team.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 03:34 PM
At this point in time Green's best days are behind him. Neither his arm strength nor his mobility are at their peak.

The opposite is true of Ben.

Yeah Green is 36, but he's still is his prime as far as I'm concerned. He didn't play until for years. Arm strength nor mobility are that crucial to be a good QB.

jspchief
06-29-2006, 03:37 PM
At this point in his career Trent is a statue.
He's not a statue. He moves around quite well in the pocket. He's not going to take off down field very often, but he knows how to move around within the pocket to get the job done.

There's a difference between not being able to run, and not needing to run.

As for the Green/Ben comparison, I'd say they are probably pretty equal. What Green lacks in athleticism, he makes up for in experience, knowledge, etc. It's just the opposite for Roethlisberger. They are considerably different in the way they do their job, but similar IMO in where they rank in the NFL right now.

But anyone that thinks Roethlisberger isn't capable of leading a team hasn't seen him play, or isn't very smart. The only reason this guy is limited is because of coaching style. He can take control of a game (look at the AFC championship game), and he can put a team on his shoulders in crunch time (look at the Pats game).

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:38 PM
Touche. However, Roethlisberger could also be sipping margaritas with Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, and Brad Johnson. While Dan Marino and Peyton Manning are staring through that window in envy.

Yes. SB rings are definetely not the sole, or even primary, measure of a QB's worth.
Do you place Ben in the same category as Dilfer, Williams, Johnson? IMO he is several cuts above and in the same league as McMahon, Stabler, Young.
He isn't in Montana Elway Marino territory but he is still young.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:42 PM
He's not a statue. He moves around quite well in the pocket. He's not going to take off down field very often, but he knows how to move around within the pocket to get the job done.

There's a difference between not being able to run, and not needing to run.

As for the Green/Ben comparison, I'd say they are probably pretty equal. What Green lacks in athleticism, he makes up for in experience, knowledge, etc. It's just the opposite for Roethlisberger. They are considerably different in the way they do their job, but similar IMO in where they rank in the NFL right now.

But anyone that thinks Roethlisberger isn't capable of leading a team hasn't seen him play, or isn't very smart. The only reason this guy is limited is because of coaching style. He can take control of a game (look at the AFC championship game), and he can put a team on his shoulders in crunch time (look at the Pats game).

Maybe statue was too strong; my point was his ability to scramble & create on the move is well below Ben's.

You sum it up nicely here; I watched both Green and Ben play my team last year. Green was o.k. in game 2 but Ben just tore the Denver D a new @$$hole. For a second-year player he shows poise, leadership, and will to win well beyond his years.

FAX
06-29-2006, 03:43 PM
Darn. I was going to carve up that statue comment, Mr. vailpass.

So, I'll just say this. Trent Green has all his teeth.

FAX

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:46 PM
Even at his "peak" these were never his strong points.

Again, who is more important to his team right now? Green or Roethlisberger. In my opinion, you could easily rank QB's like that. Their value to their respective team.

IMO handing off to LJ and throwing the occasional in-route to TG or EK are not as hard to replace as a young stud leader of a QB.

KC's offensive success is 90% due to having a top 2 O-line and a fine RB. Defenses don't scheme against Green. They do against Ben.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:47 PM
Darn. I was going to carve up that statue comment, Mr. vailpass.

So, I'll just say this. Trent Green has all his teeth.

FAX

ROFL Fair enough. I'm not knocking Green, I'm just impressed with Ben.

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 03:51 PM
At this point in time Green's best days are behind him. Neither his arm strength nor his mobility are at their peak.

The opposite is true of Ben.

Trent Green - 35 rushes, 82 yards

Ben Roethlisberger - 31 rushes, 61 yards

I wonder what that says about Ben's mobility, getting out-rushed by a geezer.

Also, you might want to read this:

http://bbs.buccaneers.com/showthread.php?t=119643

It's a nice little article that might shed a little light on the arm strength argument.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:52 PM
Yeah Green is 36, but he's still is his prime as far as I'm concerned. He didn't play until for years. Arm strength nor mobility are that crucial to be a good QB.

I see your point. IMO when deciding who your franchise QB is yo umust take age into account. Not saying Trent can't still play.

bobbything
06-29-2006, 03:53 PM
Defenses don't scheme against Green.
Simply not true. I wish I had the time or energy to prove this wrong.

Lets just say that defenses "scheme" against all the strengths of an opposing offense. The passing game happens to be a strength on this team.

However, maybe you're right....Green has had 4 consecutive 4000+ yard seasons. Maybe those defenses just weren't "scheming" against the Chiefs passing attack.

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 03:53 PM
IMO handing off to LJ and throwing the occasional in-route to TG or EK are not as hard to replace as a young stud leader of a QB.

KC's offensive success is 90% due to having a top 2 O-line and a fine RB. Defenses don't scheme against Green. They do against Ben.

I certainly hope your just misinformed.

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 03:54 PM
I see your point. IMO when deciding who your franchise QB is yo umust take age into account. Not saying Trent can't still play.

Again,

NOBODY IS DECIDING ON A FRANCHISE QB.

That's a freaking no brainer, one of the guys is 36 years old.

It's about where they rank RIGHT NOW.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 03:54 PM
Trent Green - 35 rushes, 82 yards

Ben Roethlisberger - 31 rushes, 61 yards

I wonder what that says about Ben's mobility, getting out-rushed by a geezer.

Also, you might want to read this:

http://bbs.buccaneers.com/showthread.php?t=119643

It's a nice little article that might shed a little light on the arm strength argument.

All I know is what I see on Sundays. If yo see something different, something that makes you think Green is more mobile and able to create on the run than Ben, so be it.
Forgive me for not letting stats cloud my view of on-field play.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 03:54 PM
I see your point. IMO when deciding who your franchise QB is yo umust take age into account. Not saying Trent can't still play.

OKAY, yes LONG TERM I would take Ben. But today I would take Trent. :toast:

FAX
06-29-2006, 03:57 PM
... Defenses don't scheme against Green. ...

That makes sense, Mr. vailpass. At least it explains why he's passed for eleventy gabillion yards in his Chiefs career.

FAX

htismaqe
06-29-2006, 04:00 PM
All I know is what I see on Sundays. If yo see something different, something that makes you think Green is more mobile and able to create on the run than Ben, so be it.
Forgive me for not letting stats cloud my view of on-field play.

ROFL

You've always got that to fall back on when you get his with facts. "That's not the way I see it."

I happen to agree with your assessment of Roethlisberger. However, your assessment of Trent Green is being affected by your Blue and Orange sunglasses.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 04:05 PM
Simply not true. I wish I had the time or energy to prove this wrong.

Lets just say that defenses "scheme" against all the strengths of an opposing offense. The passing game happens to be a strength on this team.

However, maybe you're right....Green has had 4 consecutive 4000+ yard seasons. Maybe those defenses just weren't "scheming" against the Chiefs passing attack.

No question Green put up numbers in Big Dick's "trade touchdowns" offensive extravaganza regular-season super show. He is a fine QB playing behind what has been a top-2 O-line that generated a dominant running game. Green maintains his role very well. This does not put him into the status of elite QBs.

Again, at this point in their careers Green is on the way out and Ben is just beginning. It's not a slam, it is what it is.

vailpass
06-29-2006, 04:10 PM
ROFL

You've always got that to fall back on when you get his with facts. "That's not the way I see it."

I happen to agree with your assessment of Roethlisberger. However, your assessment of Trent Green is being affected by your Blue and Orange sunglasses.

Those aren't fact Htis, they are numbers generated by a Bucs fan who wanted to see something about his QB and manipulated data to see it.

In school we were coached not to care about the numbers a guy had becasue they could mislead you into thinking someone was better or worse than they played. On the field is all that counts; numbers only try to tell you what you saw.

BTW, my assesment of Green is that he is a fine though not elite QB who got the most out of his ability. Why do you disagree?

Valiant
06-29-2006, 05:46 PM
QUOTE=htismaqe] And the main reason Ben has been in the playoffs has ZERO to do with Ben Roethlisberger.QUOTE]


Sorry, I see what you mean. Ben doesn't play D.

Pitt's D was not the dominant D of the Steelers of old last year and Ben was a very big part of that play. Their O production has gone way up since Ben arrived.

I realize this board is not the best place to expect agreement that Ben should be ranked higher than Green.


Umm maybe it is you that needs to look from outside of the box..

Ben had the least amount of pass atempts last season out of all the starters in the league, he was so far down that backups were closer to him then starters in pass attempts...

Ben is exactly like Plummer in this case with being leashed and relying on the running game and field postion from the defense to succeed...
Ben had a few great games last season, but the FACT is he is not the focal point of the Pitt offense outside of being the QB who is always the glamor position..


The fact is Ben is a good(Dilfer like QB) on a squad built perfectly to where the QB does not even have to be average to win...

Last two years Pittsburg has had killer a defence, He has had a very good breakaway WR and a great posession WR to throw to.. His RB's the last two years have tore it up and kept the pressure off of him..

Then add the fact Ben just ****ed his body up, and will be having to start from scratch on conditioning...


Outside of a few brief glimpses of greatness for Ben, you are giving him far far too much credit for Pittsburg sucess... This case right now is exactly like Baltimore's run to the championship...

Valiant
06-29-2006, 05:54 PM
No question Green put up numbers in Big Dick's "trade touchdowns" offensive extravaganza regular-season super show. He is a fine QB playing behind what has been a top-2 O-line that generated a dominant running game. Green maintains his role very well. This does not put him into the status of elite QBs.

Again, at this point in their careers Green is on the way out and Ben is just beginning. It's not a slam, it is what it is.


I won't say Green is an Elite QB, more like just on the outside looking in.. Get him a legit #1 WR and then see what he can do with it...


But you are putting too much credit on team success when comparing or rating a QB.. Was Dilfer a stud QB on the way up??? Ben is not a star on that team, he is just a average player...

When coaches do not leash Ben the majority of the game he might be on his way up, well after his injury recovery...

rad
06-29-2006, 06:30 PM
1 Word:

TrentGreenleadblockvsBuffalo.

hypersensitiveZO6
06-29-2006, 06:33 PM
1 Word:

TrentGreenleadblockvsBuffalo.

1 word:

huardisnumbertwohopetrentdoesn'tdoitagain