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BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 01:17 PM
I said I'd be back with what you asked on this, remember?
I have the info compiled now.

The Angry Atheist - Is it true? Thread (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=3303601)

Um...I'll take that bet.

Then I'll be back later...gotta' go now.

I use Rummelís study/site on how power kills. He is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. I donít agree fully with his conclusions however.

Itís difficult to see the atheistic versus the religion numbers for a comparison on just those two. So I did my own pages separating out these two. However, I will footnote the site for reference.

Rummel seems to have some changes in his numbers from table to table, as he updates. I was only able find the reason for some in a footnote somehere on a page. He also ranges numbers from hi to low for handling disputes on numbers. Still, it's a great site and is where I orginally got the idea for what I said in that thread the other day: which was that more people have died at the hands of atheistic communism, than from any religion. This is my back up for that statement which you took a bet with me on. K?

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5537/religion24yp.gif

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1037/atheism23fn.gif

(1) Pre 20th Century Democide (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/PRE-20TH.GIF)
(2) Religion Facts:Basis of Roman Persecutions (http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/history/persecution.htm)

(3) 20th Century Mortatocracies (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH_C_MORTACRACIES.GIF)
(4) 20th Century Democides (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF)

(5) Democide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide)
For those who prefer Wikipedia

Rain Man
07-14-2006, 01:26 PM
I think we should start adding in a few more religious ones. Let's start with a couple of obscure ones:

1. Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.
2. The partition of India in 1947.
3. Everything that has happened in the Middle East for the past thousand years.
4. The occupation of Tibet

Also, I question the inclusion of some of the "athiestic" deaths in this guy's lists. A lot of the people killed in Cambodia, China, and Russia were killed in part because of their religious beliefs. I would include parts of these under the "religious" deaths category.

Maybe we should get a third party to referee this grand debate.

Rain Man
07-14-2006, 01:27 PM
And how does he include Tito's Yugoslavia, and then forget the whole Bosnian/Serb thing?

stumppy
07-14-2006, 01:31 PM
Maybe we should get a third party to referee this grand debate.


Good luck with that invitation to snoozville.

RedDread
07-14-2006, 01:53 PM
Perhaps those deaths should also be compared to the world population at the time



GO CRUSADES PBJ PBJ PBJ

Rain Man
07-14-2006, 01:58 PM
I nominate stumppy to be our referee.

Cochise
07-14-2006, 02:01 PM
How do you figure that Hitler should go in the religious side?

I mean, those people were killed because of their ethnicity, perhaps their religion by extension, but it's not like the other side's religion was compelling them to commit the act. It was the Nietzschean philosophies of their ruling class.

At any rate, the two societies that worked to become the most devoid of religion of all are the biggest offendors, and make Hitler look like a rank amateur anyways.

Brock
07-14-2006, 02:03 PM
Uh....Ottoman Empire?

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 02:04 PM
I knew beforehand what was going to be challenged.
I think we should start adding in a few more religious ones. Let's start with a couple of obscure ones:
1. Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.

Hitler is in there on the site as a killer but I decided he does fit this category.
That was RACIALLY motivated democide, not religious.

Jews are both an ethnic group and religion...but were killed due to their race. However 80% of them claim to be atheists. Hitler killed about 21,000,000 people overall if you read the site and 3 million were Catholics. He also killed the feeble minded etc.

There is also a question as to whether he was really a Christian or not too.

2. The partition of India in 1947.
Good point. Was that due to religion?
My understanding was that it was more than that or it'd be on the site.
My understanding is that Great Britain agitated the two groups to convince them that they needed to stay to administer the area.
Give me the numbers and add it in.

Rummel does include Pakistan. I could add it.
The site did not include Roman persecutions for some reason.

3. Everything that has happened in the Middle East for the past thousand years.
That's in there. Crusades cover most of that.
Current ME conflict did not start over religion it started over land and broken promises by the British.Let's face it this is the crux of that matter over there. Further 80% of Jewish today don't even claim to be religious. They are also an ethnic group...in fact they are also semites just like the Arabs.


4. The occupation of Tibet
A lot of the people killed in Cambodia, China, and Russia were killed in part because of their religious beliefs. I would include parts of these under the "religious" deaths category.
They are in there. Did you read it?

Also, I question the inclusion of some of the "athiestic" deaths in this guy's lists.
Specifically?
Youíd have to give me all your numbers to really see, no?

I highly doubt anyone could ever match the atheistic communists alone as a group. Their numbers ARE UNMATCHED in history especially for such a short period of time. But give me the numbers to see.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 02:07 PM
And how does he include Tito's Yugoslavia, and then forget the whole Bosnian/Serb thing?

That was promoted as ethnic cleansing.
I did think of it but decided it was ethnic.
Also if you read his site, he is not separating out by religion but by lack of freedom and democracy. That's one of his conclusions I don't agree with.
Democracy does not equal freedom nor does it guarantee less violence. I used to think that but I've changed my mind.

BIG_DADDY
07-14-2006, 02:08 PM
Cool post

Mr. Flopnuts
07-14-2006, 02:09 PM
Cool post


I agree. You obviously put some work into that Pea. Nice.

Cochise
07-14-2006, 02:09 PM
It's interesting also that religion hasn't put anything new up on that leaderboard in 400 years but the entire chart of the secular is in the past 70.

BIG_DADDY
07-14-2006, 02:10 PM
I think we should start adding in a few more religious ones. Let's start with a couple of obscure ones:

1. Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.
2. The partition of India in 1947.
3. Everything that has happened in the Middle East for the past thousand years.
4. The occupation of Tibet

Also, I question the inclusion of some of the "athiestic" deaths in this guy's lists. A lot of the people killed in Cambodia, China, and Russia were killed in part because of their religious beliefs. I would include parts of these under the "religious" deaths category.

Maybe we should get a third party to referee this grand debate.

Um, you better come up with considerably higher numbers before that will be necessary.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 02:10 PM
Uh....Ottoman Empire?

That is on the site.
But my comparison is being killed by religion versus atheistic communism.

Ottomans had dhimmi discrimination towards Jews and Christians
but they allowed religious practice.

Rain Man
07-14-2006, 02:11 PM
I'm fighting a deadline now, but I'll be back later to drive this argument into the ground.

Brock
07-14-2006, 02:11 PM
That is on the site.
But my comparison is being killed by religion versus atheistic communism.

Ottomans had dhimmi discrimination towards Jews and Christians
but they allowed religious practice.

Yeah, if you consider mass beheadings to be "discrimination".

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 02:14 PM
I agree. You obviously put some work into that Pea. Nice.
Whew I sure did....a couple of hours at least. Even I haven't read his whole site. I have known about it for years and have used primarily against commies, big govt or too much concentration of state power.

Thank you to you and BIG DADDY though.

Hey BIGDADDY I got some extra gerbils here if ya' wanna feed your snake or pit bull. :p

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 02:17 PM
Yeah, if you consider mass beheadings to be "discrimination".

Then give me the numbers....not generalities.
They are on his site. And only include the ones killed due to their faith.
Ottoman persecution of Jews is NOTHING compared to Christian Europe. IN fact many Jews attained great wealth under the Ottomans.

Generally, I take the Ottoman conquest to be more a quest for overall empire, no different than others in the ME: Egyptians,Greek, Persians, Romans, Mongols, Huns etc.

BIG_DADDY
07-14-2006, 02:24 PM
Whew I sure did....a couple of hours at least. Even I haven't read his whole site. I have known about it for years and have used primarily against commies, big govt or too much concentration of state power.

Thank you to you and BIG DADDY though.

Hey BIGDADDY I got some extra gerbils here if ya' wanna feed your snake or pit bull. :p ROFL

chasedude
07-14-2006, 02:24 PM
For religion or not war is completely worthless.

Mr. Kotter
07-14-2006, 02:24 PM
The argument that "religion" is responsible for more deaths than socialism is ludicrous to anyone who's studied history....it's a "boogey man" propped up by atheist/agnostic/secularists to demonize religion.

The only way the argument has an ounce of credibility, is if one is intellectually challenged enough so as to believe the tyrants and murderers who've claimed their actions are somehow religiously motivated--when critical examination of those motives renders such a claim as preposterous.

DaFace
07-14-2006, 02:26 PM
I think it's interesting to note that most of the "Christian" killings were done by way of war. Basically, going to other countries and killing their people, presumably, to spread your religion. On the other hand, the "atheistic" killings are primarily dictators who got pissed off and started killling their own people.

I have no real basis for this and won't be able to back it up, but I wonder if the reality is that there are more killings by atheistic leaders, but more wars carried out for religious reasons. That would also explain the apparent misconception that religion is the reason for most killings - history classes study wars, but don't focus a lot on leaders who just kill their own people. :shrug:

Dave Lane
07-14-2006, 02:36 PM
In the dark ages over 100,000,000 people were killed by various means...

Dave

el borracho
07-14-2006, 02:40 PM
Defecit drops to 296 billion!

Mr. Kotter
07-14-2006, 02:41 PM
In the dark ages over 100,000,000 people were killed by various means...

Dave:spock:

So, your point is....? :hmmm:

You gonna blame those on "religion," too?

Black Death & Bubonic Plague were, what, a Church conspiracy? :shrug:









You gotta help a bit here, Dave. :p

Dave Lane
07-14-2006, 02:43 PM
Up the total by a bunch and consider the difference in world populations and religious wars far outstrip the "Atheists" for totals...

Dave

Mr. Kotter
07-14-2006, 02:44 PM
Up the total by a bunch and consider the difference in world populations and religious wars far outstrip the "Atheists" for totals...

Dave

Link?


:rolleyes:




:banghead:

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 02:44 PM
[quote]I think it's interesting to note that most of the "Christian" killings were done by way of war. Basically, going to other countries and killing their people, presumably, to spread your religion.


I don't think all religious wars were/are to SPREAD their religons per se.

I think there are conflicts between religions for various reasons and some may be for that. For instance crusaders felt their holy sites were being desecrated and there were issues on access to them over those years. They may have also wanted to spread the gospel on the way, but I wouldn't say that was the primary motivation.

I also think such strife is also because some religions don't want to live in an environment that is corrupting of their precepts. So it becomes a matter of who will control what values creating a cultural clash.


I have no real basis for this and won't be able to back it up, but I wonder if the reality is that there are more killings by atheistic leaders, but more wars carried out for religious reasons. :shrug:

There's a lot on that site which is mainly about what no limitations on power can do. You have the most power under totalitarian regimes. Atheistic communism or socialisms were mostly totalitarian. But not all religious regimes. I think you could call some religious regimes authoritarian instead.

For instance the Spanish Inquisition was govt/religion combined. However, the Italian one was mild by comparison. A reason given for that is that the Church in Rome was separate from govt. The Church in Rome may have declared one a heretic but it was the left to the state for any deaths.

Cochise
07-14-2006, 02:45 PM
I think that, for the purposes of this discussion, we should mark the boundaries at:

Category A - "The killer was primarily motivated by his own religion, regardless of the victim's religious affiliation (or non-affiliation)."

Category B - "The killer was primarily motivated by his own religion in conjunction with the victim's religious affiliation."

Category C - "The killer was not motivated by his own religion (or lack thereof) but did kill the victim because of the victim's religion."

Category D - "The killer was not movtivated by his own religion (or lack thereof) and did not kill the victim because of the victim's religion."


Examples: (IMO)

A - Joe kills Bob because Bob does not follow Joeism.
B - Joe kills Bob because Joe believes that Joeism commands him to kill in particular people who follow Bobism.
C - Joe is not religious but kills Bob because he dislikes Bobists.
D - Joe kills Bob for a reason unrelated to religion.

-

IMO, the debate should put deaths from Category A and B into the column of being caused by religion, and C and D in those that were not caused by religion.

You have to have boundaries here or the debate will make no sense. This way at least we limit it to debating which column each situation falls under.

beavis
07-14-2006, 02:46 PM
How anyone could place the blame on religion is beyond me.

The party clearly responsible is The Pentavirate.

BIG_DADDY
07-14-2006, 02:48 PM
Up the total by a bunch and consider the difference in world populations and religious wars far outstrip the "Atheists" for totals...

Dave
ROFL

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 02:50 PM
You have to have boundaries here or the debate will make no sense. This way at least we limit it to debating which column each situation falls under.
Exactly! Just a simple point of logic: assigning something to the correct category of thing and making sure it is the SAME thing for purposes of comparison.

Brock
07-14-2006, 02:57 PM
Then give me the numbers....not generalities.
They are on his site. And only include the ones killed due to their faith.
Ottoman persecution of Jews is NOTHING compared to Christian Europe. IN fact many Jews attained great wealth under the Ottomans.

Generally, I take the Ottoman conquest to be more a quest for overall empire, no different than others in the ME: Egyptians,Greek, Persians, Romans, Mongols, Huns etc.

Maybe there is no way to quantify exactly how many were killed in the Assyrian Genocide. What is known is that there used to be 5 million Christians living in Turkey, and 10 years later there were about 200 thousand.

Hog Farmer
07-14-2006, 03:25 PM
I would like to know how many cavemen were killed by Dinosaurs. UH-HUH that's what I want to know.

Hog Farmer
07-14-2006, 03:27 PM
With the not too distant use of Nuclear weapons there's gettin ready to be some big numbers put n the board.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 03:33 PM
Maybe there is no way to quantify exactly how many were killed in the Assyrian Genocide. What is known is that there used to be 5 million Christians living in Turkey, and 10 years later there were about 200 thousand.
Well I am reading up on them further right now...(I've read some on them before) and I am getting that they were not even Muslim when they first conquered the area but largely believed in various forms of shamanism. They adopted the Muslim faith later...and were tolerant of Christians and Jews setting up districts for them and allowing them to practice.The young Turks who took power just before WWI were different.


The Assyrian Genocide was not religiously motivated.You work with the enemy during war anyone's bound to get killed.

The Turkish government, as well as others, claim that the Assyrians and Armenians sought autonomy from the Ottoman Empire and joined the invading Russian army in the east. The Turkish government saw the Assyrian and Armenian communities as a threat and so Turkey relocated them to the Syrian Desert. Many deaths occurred during the relocation "Death Marches" from starvation and dehydration. Turkey claims these deaths were an accident.
The genocide of Assyrians has yet to be officially recognized by any country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide...for starters only


Also Turkish state in 1915 decided to kill ALL minorities and was headed by criminals at the time.

http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/assyria/assyrians_1915.html#

oldandslow
07-14-2006, 03:37 PM
To make this real, you would have to make it "percentage of population."

I still think that murder by politics "win" tho.

Brock
07-14-2006, 03:40 PM
The Assyrian Genocide was not religiously motivated.You work with the enemy during war anyone's bound to get killed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide...for starters only

From your link: "In addition, the massacre of all Christians in Asia Minor is usually linked solely to the Armenian Genocide."

Are you seriously going to tell me that the disappearance of most Christians from the region is some kind of magical coincidence? Maybe they were raptured! :rolleyes:

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 03:43 PM
From your link: "In addition, the massacre of all Christians in Asia Minor is usually linked solely to the Armenian Genocide."

Are you seriously going to tell me that the disappearance of most Christians from the region is some kind of magical coincidence? Maybe they were raptured! :rolleyes:
No what I am saying is that it was not motivated by religion nor was it done during the entire Ottoman Empire which covers a long period of time.

Is it Assyrian or Armenian now?

BTW I edited.

Hydrae
07-14-2006, 03:51 PM
I have no idea of the numbers but you probably should include the Jews throughout several purges in Europe during the Middle Ages to the religious deaths. And please don't give me ethnicity as opposed to religion, belief is what identifies a Jew, not ancestory.

Cochise
07-14-2006, 03:56 PM
Are you seriously going to tell me that the disappearance of most Christians from the region is some kind of magical coincidence? Maybe they were raptured! :rolleyes:

Yeah, might be wise to turn up the 'real' in here.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 03:58 PM
I have no idea of the numbers but you probably should include the Jews throughout several purges in Europe during the Middle Ages to the religious deaths.

I thought of that but I thought it was covered under witch hunts.
But is a good point. Why don't you help and get the numbers while you're at it and see if mine are correct?

I still doubt it would out-do the Commies.

And please don't give me ethnicity as opposed to religion, belief is what identifies a Jew, not ancestory.

I said that regarding Hitler only, who was operating on a racial purity compaign. You dispute this?

You know the man who also said things like:
"kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children of Polish race or language."

You do have to consider context when you read.

el borracho
07-14-2006, 04:37 PM
Actually what the data in the original post tells me is two things:

1. We have become much more efficient at killing in the last century. You can't convince me that the earlier "holy" wars wouldn't have had more casualties if the technology had been available.

2. In the last few centuries religions have lost their overt control of militaries. Maybe that control was taken away for a reason. :hmmm:



p.s. where are the numbers for the americas in the 15th and 16th centuries? How many died directly or indirectly due to christian missionaries and conquistadores?

Hydrae
07-14-2006, 04:42 PM
I thought of that but I thought it was covered under witch hunts.
But is a good point. Why don't you help and get the numbers while you're at it and see if mine are correct?

I still doubt it would out-do the Commies.

I am still looking but not having much luck with finding hard numbers. But I will say it is amazing that there are any Jews anywhere in the world after the way they have been treated over the centuries.

Oh, and the numbers you put up tell me one thing, humans are horrible to each other no matter what the "reason" for it may be.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 04:54 PM
Actually what the data in the original post tells me is two things:

1. We have become much more efficient at killing in the last century. You can't convince me that the earlier "holy" wars wouldn't have had more casualties if the technology had been available.

The biggest mega murders are the Soviet Union and Chinese communists....who total in at combined number over a 100 million ALONE!

They did not use missiles to my knowledge and I know they did not use nukes.
They kill more AFTER they take power too. Those numbers reflect executions, gulags, and forced famines ( I believe one famine alone in China killed over 35 million. Then there is the Ukrainian famine under Stalin...sounds like things that could be done earlier too. )

The 20th century isn't called the "bloodiest " century for nothing.

Obviously no on reads the site for details.


p.s. where are the numbers for the americas in the 15th and 16th centuries? How many died directly or indirectly due to christian missionaries and conquistadores?
Christian missionaries? Hmmm yeah right. You mean like Jesuits who defended some natives. Sounds more like prejudice or popular culture PC information.

Conquistadores....did they do it for religion or for gold? Some of each?

Or do mean the fact that they killed the Aztecs who were killing about 2,000 for each of their human sacrificial religious ceremonies?

Generalities won't do. How 'bout some numbers?

Indians were on the site but as a grand total as killed by govts.

I find it interesting that those who have the hardest time with these numbers don't supply any of their own or any sources for their own.


Note:I am currently adding up the Jewish pograms beginning in ancient times. But I'm not getting big numbers. Even Kristallnacht equals 200 Jews killed. First real Pogrom I'm finding, so far, are the Odessa Riots of 1859 but only 14 dead. 1903-1906 I've got 2,000 dead. I understand my the site doesn't contain many of these: because it's a site about power killing and many of these pograms were started by angry mobs, often with police doing nothing about it but not always instituted by a state.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 05:07 PM
Oh, and the numbers you put up tell me one thing, humans are horrible to each other no matter what the "reason" for it may be.

Good observation! I agree and have felt that man's inhumanity to man has been something that has afflicted most groups at one time or another. That includes those who sell out their own kind.

el borracho
07-14-2006, 05:35 PM
The biggest mega murders are the Soviet Union and Chinese communists....who total in at combined number over a 100 million ALONE!

They did not use missiles to my knowledge and I know they did not use nukes.
Who said anything about missiles or nukes? Guns are a quantum leap above swords, axes and halberds.

They kill more AFTER they take power too. Those numbers reflect executions, gulags, and forced famines ( I believe one famine alone in China killed over 35 million. Then there is the Ukrainian famine under Stalin...sounds like things that could be done earlier too. ).
Executions, labor systems and famines were definitely used in Mexico.

Christian missionaries? Hmmm yeah right. You mean like Jesuits who defended some natives. Sounds more like prejudice or popular culture PC information.
Christian missionaries like fray Bartolome who fought and argued in favor of native peoples were by far the exception. Most missionaries were content with the system as it was- convert the natives at the point of a sword. Why do you think the americas are now primarily christian? Do you think that the good missionaries invited the native peoples to sunday school where the indigenous people learned what a good thing they had been missing?
No. The indigenous people were either converted or had the hands or their heads cut off. Sometimes the good missionaries would kill the native people immediately after they converted to insure that they would die christian.

Conquistadores....did they do it for religion or for gold? Some of each?
Conquistadores as individuals were funded by the crown. Their trips were funded by the crown based on their success in the eyes of the crown. Their reports to the crown (I've actually read copies of several) usually focused on three things- money, conversion of native people to subjects of the crown and discovery of things native to the americas not found in Europe. Don't fool yourself. Money and power were the main objectives. Control of the native people, including their religion, was a major goal of the Spanish empire.

Or do mean the fact that they killed the Aztecs who were killing about 2,000 for each of their human sacrificial religious ceremonies?
Generalities won't do. How 'bout some numbers?
Whatever the Aztecs were doing to themselves does not excuse the actions of the people who calculated their destruction.

And lastly, I don't have numbers nor do I have time to compile them and even if I did this conversation would be over before I could post them. If you claim to have comprehensive numbers you should expect to answer some questions, no? Anyway, where are your numbers for the americas? Or do you not have any, either?

el borracho
07-14-2006, 05:40 PM
Got to go for a bit. I'll check back later (in case anyone misses me).

Rain Man
07-14-2006, 06:04 PM
Or do mean the fact that they killed the Aztecs who were killing about 2,000 for each of their human sacrificial religious ceremonies?



Oh! Make sure we add them to the "religious killers" totals.

Rain Man
07-14-2006, 06:04 PM
Anyone seen el borracho? I miss him when he's not around.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 06:31 PM
Ya' know RainMain....I think the Muslim conquest should definitely be added but I'm havin' a hard time gettin' numbers. That would include the conquest of India under that.

BucEyedPea
07-14-2006, 06:35 PM
Anyway, where are your numbers for the americas? Or do you not have any, either?

There on the site I footnoted as a reference. He includes it under the Americas and Indians. But it was not recognized by me as specifically a religious battle alone...at least killing them on that basis.