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Boyceofsummer
07-15-2006, 01:53 AM
Baghdad starts to collapse as its people flee a life of death
By James Hider, of The Times, from Baghdad

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2268585_1,00.html

As I hung up the phone, I wondered if I would ever see my friend Ali alive again. Ali, The Times translator for the past three years, lives in west Baghdad, an area that is now in meltdown as a bitter civil war rages between Sunni insurgents and Shia militias. It is, quite simply, out of control.



I returned to Baghdad on Monday after a break of several months, during which I too was guilty of glazing over every time I read another story of Iraqi violence. But two nights on the telephone, listening to my lost and frightened Iraqi staff facing death at any moment, persuaded me that Baghdad is now verging on total collapse.

Ali phoned me on Tuesday night, about 10.30pm. There were cars full of gunmen prowling his mixed neighbourhood, he said. He and his neighbours were frantically exchanging information, trying to identify the gunmen.

Were they the Mahdi Army, the Shia militia blamed for drilling holes in their victims’ eyes and limbs before executing them by the dozen? Or were they Sunni insurgents hunting down Shias to avenge last Sunday’s massacre, when Shia gunmen rampaged through an area called Jihad, pulling people from their cars and homes and shooting them in the streets?

Ali has a surname that could easily pass for Shia. His brother-in-law has an unmistakably Sunni name. They agreed that if they could determine that the gunmen were Shia, Ali would answer the door. If they were Sunnis, his brother-in-law would go.

Whoever didn’t answer the door would hide in the dog kennel on the roof.

Their Plan B was simpler: to dash 50 yards to their neighbours’ house — home to a dozen brothers. All Iraqi homes are awash with guns for self-defense in these merciless times. Together they would shoot it out with the gunmen — one of a dozen unsung Alamos now being fought nightly on Iraq’s blacked-out streets.

“We just have to wait and see what our fate is,” Ali told me. It was the first time in three years of bombs, battles and kidnappings that I had heard this stocky, very physical young man sounding scared, but there was nothing I could do to help.

The previous night I had had a similar conversation with my driver, a Shia who lives in another part of west Baghdad. He phoned at 11pm to say that there was a battle raging outside his house and that his family were sheltering in the windowless bathroom.

Marauding Mahdi gunmen, seeking to drive all Sunnis from the area, were fighting Sunni Mujahidin for control of a nearby strategic position. I could hear the gunfire blazing over the phone.

We phoned the US military trainer attached to Iraqi security forces in the area. He said there was nothing to be done: “There’s always shooting at night here. It’s like chasing ghosts.”

In fact the US military generally responds only to request for support from Iraqi security forces. But as many of those forces are at best turning a blind eye to the Shia death squads, and at worst colluding with them, calling the Americans is literally the last thing they do.

West Baghdad is no stranger to bombings and killings, but in the past few days all restraint has vanished in an orgy of ethnic cleansing.

Shia gunmen are seeking to drive out the once-dominant Sunni minority and the Sunnis are forming neighbourhood posses to retaliate. Mosques are being attacked. Scores of innocent civilians have been killed, their bodies left lying in the streets.

Hundreds — Sunni and Shia — are abandoning their homes. My driver said all his neighbours had now fled, their abandoned houses bullet-pocked and locked up. On a nearby mosque, competing Sunni and Shiite graffiti had been scrawled on the walls.

A senior nurse at Yarmouk hospital on the fringes of west Baghdad’s war zone said that he was close to being overwhelmed. “On Tuesday we received 35 bodies in one day, 16 from Al-Furat district alone. All of them were killed execution-style,” he said. “I thought it was the end of the city. I packed my bags at once and got ready to leave because they could storm the hospital at any moment.”



In just 24 hours before noon yesterday, as parliament convened for another emergency session, 87 bodies were brought to Baghdad city morgue, 63 of them unidentified. Since Sunday’s massacre in Jihad, more than 160 people have been killed, making a total of at least 1,600 since Iraq’s Government of national unity came to power six weeks ago. Another 2,500 have been wounded.

In early June, Nouri al-Maliki, the new Prime Minister, flooded Baghdad’s streets with tens of thousands of soldiers and police in an effort to restore order to the capital.

More recently, he announced a national reconciliation plan, which promised an amnesty to Sunni insurgents and the disbandment of Shia militias. Both initiatives are now in tatters.

“The country is sliding fast towards civil war,” Ali Adib, a Shia MP, told the Iraqi parliament this week. “Security has deteriorated in a serious and unprecedented way,” said Saadi Barzanji, a Kurdish MP.

Mr al-Maliki told parliament: “We all have a last chance to reconcile and agree among each other on avoiding conflict and blood. If we fail, God knows what the fate of Iraq will be.”

Joseph Biden, the senior Democrat on the US Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee, described Baghdad after a recent visit as a city in the throes of “nascent civil war”.

Most Iraqis believe that it is already here. “There is a campaign to eradicate all Sunnis from Baghdad,” said Sheikh Omar al-Jebouri, of the Iraqi Islamic Party, a Sunni parliamentary group. He said that it was organised by the Shia-dominated Interior Ministry and its police special commandos, with Shia militias, and aimed to destroy Mr al-Maliki’s plans to rebuild Iraq’s security forces along national, rather than sectarian, lines.

Ahmed Abu Mustafa, a resident of the Sunni district of Amariyah in western Baghdad, was stunned to see two police car pick-ups speed up to his local mosque with cars full of gunmen on Tuesday evening and open fire on it with their government-issued machineguns.

Immediately, Sunni gunmen materialised from side streets and a battle started. “I’d heard about this happening but this was the first time I’d seen police shooting at a mosque,” he said. “I was amazed by how quickly the local gunmen deployed. I ran for my life.”

Yesterday, General George Casey, the most senior US commander in Iraq, said that the US might deploy more American troops in Baghdad. He said that al-Qaeda, to show that it was still relevant, had stepped up its attacks in Baghdad following the killing last month of its leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. “What we are seeing now as a counter to that is death squads, primarily from Shia extremist groups, that are retaliating against civilians.”

A local journalist told me bitterly this week that Iraqis find it ironic that Saddam Hussein is on trial for killing 148 people 24 years ago, while militias loyal to political parties now in government kill that many people every few days. But it is not an irony that anyone here has time to laugh about. They are too busy packing their bags and wondering how they can get out alive.

My driver and his extended family are now refugees living in The Times offices in central Baghdad.

Ali is also trying to persuade his stubborn family to leave home and move into our hotel.

Those that can are leaving the country. At Baghdad airport, throngs of Iraqis jostle for places on the flights out — testimony to the breakdown in Iraqi society.

One woman said that she and her three children were fleeing Mansour, once the most stylish part of the capital. “Every day there is fighting and killing,” she said as she boarded a plane for Damascus in Syria to sit out the horrors of Baghdad.



A neurologist, who was heading to Jordan with his wife, said that he would seek work abroad and hoped that he would never have to return. “We were so happy on April 9, 2003 when the Americans came. But I’ve given up. Iraq isn’t ready for democracy,” he said, sitting in a chair with a view of the airport runway.

Fares al-Mufti, an official with the Iraqi Airways booking office, told The Times that the national carrier had had to lay on an extra flight a day, all fully booked. Flights to Damascus have gone up from three a week to eight to cope with the panicked exodus.

Muhammad al-Ani, who runs fleets of Suburban cars to Jordan, said that the service to Amman was so oversubscribed that that prices had rocketed from $200 (£108) to $750 per trip in the past two weeks.

Despite the huge risks of driving through the Sunni Triangle, the number of buses to Jordan has mushroomed from 2 a day to as many as 40 or 50.

Abu Ahmed, a Sunni who was leaving Ghazaliya with his family and belongings, said that he was ready to pay the exorbitant prices being charged because his wife had received a death threat at the hospital in a Shia area where she worked.

“We can’t cope, we have to take the children out for a while,” he said.

In one of the few comprehensive surveys of how many Iraqis have fled their country since the US invasion, the US Committee for Refugees and Immigrants said last month that there were 644,500 refugees in Syria and Jordan in 2005 — about 2.5 per cent of Iraq’s population. In total, 889,000 Iraqis had moved abroad, creating “the biggest new flow of refugees in the world”, according to Lavinia Limon, the committee’s president.

And the exodus may only just be starting.

unlurking
07-15-2006, 02:13 AM
I just don't know what to say about Iraq anymore?

We can bitch and moan about who is to blame, whether we were justified, whether this makes us safe. In the end, it's just more people dying. I'm thankful that our troops are better protected and are realizing minimal casualties in a military operation. Unfotunately the loss of life like this to civilians is very depressing.

I wish I had something "productive" to say in terms of suggestions on how to fix this, but I just don't. I don't see any benefit to pulling out or increasing local strength. It looks like thousands more will die this year no matter what we do.

Ugly Duck
07-15-2006, 06:28 AM
In the end, it's just more people dying.Waddya talkin about? Bush thinks Iraq is a model democracy that other countries should emulate. The place is a friggin paradise - lookit what he told Putin in Russia:

"I talked about my desire to promote institutional change in parts of the world, like Iraq where there's a free press and free religion, and I told him that a lot of people in our country would hope that Russia would do the same," Bush said.

To that, Putin replied, "We certainly would not want to have the same kind of democracy that they have in Iraq, quite honestly."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/15/russia.g8/index.html

memyselfI
07-15-2006, 07:04 AM
I just don't know what to say about Iraq anymore?

We can bitch and moan about who is to blame, whether we were justified, whether this makes us safe. In the end, it's just more people dying. I'm thankful that our troops are better protected and are realizing minimal casualties in a military operation. Unfotunately the loss of life like this to civilians is very depressing.

I wish I had something "productive" to say in terms of suggestions on how to fix this, but I just don't. I don't see any benefit to pulling out or increasing local strength. It looks like thousands more will die this year no matter what we do.

It has been depressing from the start. Lots of people in this country deluded themselves into thinking this was a no muss, no fuss war because AMERICAN deaths were low. But this war has seen tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, aka 'collateral damage', die and for the most part the people in this country didn't find it depressing at all. :shake:

Chiefs Minor Satellite
07-15-2006, 07:44 AM
It has been depressing from the start. Lots of people in this country deluded themselves into thinking this was a no muss, no fuss war because AMERICAN deaths were low. But this war has seen tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, aka 'collateral damage', die and for the most part the people in this country didn't find it depressing at all. :shake:


I have a question for you: How many people died each year under Saddam's regeime?

Mr. Kotter
07-15-2006, 08:32 AM
Dead link....


:hmmm:

Mr. Kotter
07-15-2006, 08:33 AM
I have a question for you: How many people died each year under Saddam's regeime?Oh, come on....don't you know, silly?

There was NO death or mayhem in Iraq, prior to the arrival of the Americans, silly.

Chiefs Minor Satellite
07-15-2006, 08:58 AM
Oh, come on....don't you know, silly?

There was NO death or mayhem in Iraq, prior to the arrival of the Americans, silly.

That's what I was thinkin, but I hadda ax.

patteeu
07-15-2006, 09:08 AM
It has been depressing from the start. Lots of people in this country deluded themselves into thinking this was a no muss, no fuss war because AMERICAN deaths were low. But this war has seen tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, aka 'collateral damage', die and for the most part the people in this country didn't find it depressing at all. :shake:

Iraqi deaths are regretable, but my primary interest is in long-term US national security. American deaths are still low and that's still a good thing, although even that interest is subordinate to long-term US national security.

Iowanian
07-15-2006, 10:01 AM
Its interesting how "terrible" Americans are, if they kill terrorists and insurgents, hiding among women and children, and a couple of innocents die.....when 2 of the 3 main Iraqi groups ACTIVELY target, torture and kill Hundreds of civilians on purpose.

Boyceofsummer
07-15-2006, 10:42 AM
Bush backs away from spat with Putin By Caren Bohan
57 minutes ago



President Bush backed away on Saturday from a public confrontation over Russia's democracy with President Vladimir Putin, adhering to a pledge not to lecture the Kremlin leader.

At a joint news conference, the two made clear they discussed their differences privately on what critics say are declining civil liberties in Russia, and stepped gingerly around the issue in their public comments.

With Bush needing Russia's help on pressuring Iran and North Korea to forswear nuclear weapons, and with Middle East violence surging, democracy issues did not appear to play as dominating role in their talks as when they met in Slovakia last year.

Bush said it came up at their social dinner on Friday night.

"I talked about my desire to promote institutional change in parts of the world like Iraq, where there is a free press and free religion, and I told him that a lot of people in our country, you know, would hope that Russia would do the same thing," Bush said.

He quickly added: "I totally understand, however, that there will be a Russian-style democracy. I don't expect Russia to look like the United States. As Vladimir pointedly reminded me last night, 'We have a different history, different traditions."'

Putin pounced on the reference to Iraq. "We of course don't want to have a democracy like the one in Iraq, to be honest," he deadpanned, to laughter from Russian-speaking listeners.

Upon hearing the translation of Putin's remark, Bush interjected: "Just wait." :LOL:
NEW LAW

Russian non-governmental organizations say their ability to operate free from state interference has been drastically curtailed by a Kremlin-sponsored law passed this year. Washington has joined criticism of the law.

Masha Lipman, editor of the Carnegie Moscow Center's Pro et Contra journal, wrote in The Washington Post Saturday that "the Russian government has resorted recently to police practices strongly reminiscent of those used some three decades ago in the Soviet Union."

Bush met a number of Russian rights campaigners on Friday and said he would relay their concerns about curbs on civil liberties to Putin.

"Look, he's willing to listen, but he also explains to me that he doesn't want anyone telling him how to run his government," Bush said on Saturday.

National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley said Bush several times mentioned to Putin his meeting with the rights campaigners, including one or two specific issues they raised.

Putin told the news conference: "Nobody knows better than us how to strengthen our own state. We know very well that we cannot strengthen it without developing democracy. And of course we will do this. We will do it independently."

Ahead of Bush's talks, the U.S. Senate unanimously adopted a resolution that called on Bush and other G8 countries "to let President Putin know that his attempts to turn back the clock on democracy are unacceptable."

stevieray
07-15-2006, 10:52 AM
It has been depressing from the start. Lots of people in this country deluded themselves into thinking this was a no muss, no fuss war because AMERICAN deaths were low. But this war has seen tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians, aka 'collateral damage', die and for the most part the people in this country didn't find it depressing at all. :shake:

I wonder what percentage of Iraqi deaths are caused by insurgents, as opposed to US forces. I'm almost certain you wouldn't like the answer.

I don't think that most think that any WAR is no muss, no fuss..the fact that the total Americans lives lost is so low speaks volumes about our Military.

memyselfI
07-15-2006, 12:23 PM
I have a question for you: How many people died each year under Saddam's regeime?

SH should not be the measure of OUR values and beliefs anymore than AQ should. :shake:

the Talking Can
07-15-2006, 01:04 PM
I have a question for you: How many people died each year under Saddam's regeime?

Ask Reagan, he armed him and slapped him on the back while Sadaam was pulling the trigger....no republican on the planet gave a shit about Iraqi citizens...ever, prior to Bush's dumb idea...you didn't and Reagan didn't...and no one this board....there are no threads in the archive about saving Iraqi citizens and no mentioned it during the Presidential elections...no one


all of which has nothing to with the facts of Iraq being a hell hole that Bush is responsible for....but you're not interested in that....

patteeu
07-15-2006, 02:48 PM
there are no threads in the archive about saving Iraqi citizens and no mentioned it during the Presidential elections...no one

Does that include the anti-war planeteers who are now pretending to shed a tear over the Iraqi death toll? Of course it does.

Chiefs Minor Satellite
07-15-2006, 02:49 PM
SH should not be the measure of OUR values and beliefs anymore than AQ should. :shake:

After reading your posts, I'm not sure what YOUR values are, if you have any. You fluctuate between being an American citizen and an AQ sympathizer. What are you?

SBK
07-15-2006, 03:02 PM
After reading your posts, I'm not sure what YOUR values are, if you have any. You fluctuate between being an American citizen and an AQ sympathizer. What are you?

She may have been born an American citizen, but there's no doubt she's 100% AQ sympatizer today.

memyselfI
07-15-2006, 04:48 PM
After reading your posts, I'm not sure what YOUR values are, if you have any. You fluctuate between being an American citizen and an AQ sympathizer. What are you?

AQ is a horrible and dangerous organization that should be destroyed. I argued years ago that the way to defeat them was NOT to elevate and legitimize them by declaring war against them. The way to defeat them was to elminate them at the source and that would be with American policy that was mindful of history and culture in the region. The US policy has been neither and it's no accident the ME is about to go up in flames in ways it has not seen in at least a decade.

The greatest single thing to happen to AQ and the anti-peace movement in the ME has been George W. Bush.

CRONUS
07-15-2006, 05:09 PM
I wonder what percentage of Iraqi deaths are caused by insurgents, as opposed to US forces. I'm almost certain you wouldn't like the answer.

I don't think that most think that any WAR is no muss, no fuss..the fact that the total Americans lives lost is so low speaks volumes about our Military.

I am sure the number is huge but they are not really insurgents they are civil war participants. At this point the fighting is definitely not about getting the US to leave but to win the civil war.

SBK
07-15-2006, 08:53 PM
I am sure the number is huge but they are not really insurgents they are civil war participants. At this point the fighting is definitely not about getting the US to leave but to win the civil war.

Civil war participants? They are foriegn terrorist who show up in Iraq and blow up the civilians.

And to think that the object is anything other than getting the US to leave is plum crazy.

CRONUS
07-15-2006, 09:29 PM
Civil war participants? They are foriegn terrorist who show up in Iraq and blow up the civilians.

And to think that the object is anything other than getting the US to leave is plum crazy.You really need to pay closer attention to the news. The fighting is between Iraqi Shia and Sunni.

the Talking Can
07-15-2006, 10:37 PM
Civil war participants? They are foriegn terrorist who show up in Iraq and blow up the civilians.

And to think that the object is anything other than getting the US to leave is plum crazy.

you and recxjake should teach a class on current events....not knowing anything is a great quality for a teacher...ask Kotter...

memyselfI
07-15-2006, 10:41 PM
Civil war participants? They are foriegn terrorist who show up in Iraq and blow up the civilians.

And to think that the object is anything other than getting the US to leave is plum crazy.

Actually, the Pentagon's OWN estimates have the foreign terrorist population to be an estimated TEN PERCENT of the entire insurgency...