Tax Break Idea...

[unlurking]

This may be kind of retarded, but one of my personal opinions is that a lot of the problems this country is facing, are based on a lack of understanding by the majority of the voting population. I believe many people vote based on sound-bytes and marketing slicks, without truly understanding the value of the subject or the history of the politicians actions and views of the world.

A lot of this is due to the "spoiled" effect a successful society such as ours proliferates. We have so much, and have had so much, that we seem like we have the same attitude as our "invulnerable" teenagers who think they will live forever. Much of it is also the mass marketing of politicians and corporations to "entertain/scare" the populace. We work so hard, that in our free time we are usually uninterested in global/national concerns that only something provocative will grab our intention.

No matter the cause, the only answer I see is educating the populace. Since the populace obviously needs "incentive", what about tax breaks for voters who take classes on our government? This could include all sorts of things such as the constitution, democracy and our current system of checks and balances, current laws and the reasons for their enactment, etc. Hell, I'd love to go to some discussions on the pros/cons for the local/state issues that come up all the time.

Obviously this would have to be totally non-partisan and require a lot of work to setup, but I truly think it would help us to elect better politicians.

And while I'm freely giving away tax credits, how about a break for volunteer work? We give tax breask for charitable contributions, why not for those who donate their time?

Just a thought, rip away.

[Chiefs Minor Satellite]

You make some very good points. I can agree with a few of them.

One of the major problems I see in the country is the dumbing down of the educational system across the nation. Programs such as outcome based education have been a miserable failure. I don't believe that the emphasis for government has gained over the years but has declined.

It's unfortunate but the teenagers are not the only section of society that feels like they are invulnerable. There are middle aged adults that have the very same outlook. They have no fear. If there were indeed a reason for them to feel that way it would be understandable, but there isn't.

It would be great if there were easy fixes to the whole situation but I don't see it coming anytime in the near future.

This is where we all say we are doomed and turn it all over to the democrats that do have the answers.

[patteeu]

I think you've identified a real problem and offered an interesting theory about the source of the problem, but my opposition to using targeted tax cuts to modify specific behavior would lead me to oppose your solution. And, as you point out, the tricky part would be making sure that the education were nonpartisan. You'd get a pretty different understanding of how US government is supposed to work if you had a libertarian teaching the course as compared to a liberal. JMO.

[unlurking]

You make some very good points. I can agree with a few of them.

One of the major problems I see in the country is the dumbing down of the educational system across the nation. Programs such as outcome based education have been a miserable failure. I don't believe that the emphasis for government has gained over the years but has declined.

It's unfortunate but the teenagers are not the only section of society that feels like they are invulnerable. There are middle aged adults that have the very same outlook. They have no fear. If there were indeed a reason for them to feel that way it would be understandable, but there isn't.

It would be great if there were easy fixes to the whole situation but I don't see it coming anytime in the near future.

This is where we all say we are doomed and turn it all over to the democrats that do have the answers.

True, it would be nice to see some more poli-sci (sp?) requirements added to education, along the lines of requiring English and Biology classes. As I only completed one year of undergrad, I don't remember what requirements are?

As far as the immortal middle aged population, I don't know how to fix that either, but those are the people we need entice to get involved with at least understanding current events. I just don't know how?

[unlurking]

I think you've identified a real problem and offered an interesting theory about the source of the problem, but my opposition to using targeted tax cuts to modify specific behavior would lead me to oppose your solution. And, as you point out, the tricky part would be making sure that the education were nonpartisan. You'd get a pretty different understanding of how US government is supposed to work if you had a libertarian teaching the course as compared to a liberal. JMO.

I can understand the opposition based on offering tax cuts, but it was just a first thought on how "incentivise" the greater population into educating itself. I'm not sure if there is another way?

Maybe we need to enforce citizenship education programs (from hearsay I understand that the program for foreigners to gain citizenship is rather intense) on all people, and get rid of the citizen by birth thing? Give everyone "temporary citizenship" instead until they are 25. Anyone entering the military would recieve this education for free and it would be a requirement to complete basic. All community colleges/universities could offer the program as a requirement for freshman students. At the age of 25, any who hadn't passed the course would then be transferred to the "guest worker" status both parties seem to approve of.

This may seem a little harsh, but tax breaks were a stick, this could be a carrot. At the same time, I don't think the government should pay for the program (other than oversight) as most people usually appreciate the things they have to work for more than things just handed to them. If you go for extended education or military, you will be taken care of. If you go straight to work out of high school, you'd have to pay for it on your own. Maybe some employers would be willing to subsidize the courses or cover costs for guaranteed service years?

Don't know, just another thought, although it may be too close to the tiered class system of sci-fi classics, we are moving that way if we institute a guest-worker program for immigrants anyway.

[patteeu]

I can understand the opposition based on offering tax cuts, but it was just a first thought on how "incentivise" the greater population into educating itself. I'm not sure if there is another way?

Maybe we need to enforce citizenship education programs (from hearsay I understand that the program for foreigners to gain citizenship is rather intense) on all people, and get rid of the citizen by birth thing? Give everyone "temporary citizenship" instead until they are 25. Anyone entering the military would recieve this education for free and it would be a requirement to complete basic. All community colleges/universities could offer the program as a requirement for freshman students. At the age of 25, any who hadn't passed the course would then be transferred to the "guest worker" status both parties seem to approve of.

This may seem a little harsh, but tax breaks were a stick, this could be a carrot. At the same time, I don't think the government should pay for the program (other than oversight) as most people usually appreciate the things they have to work for more than things just handed to them. If you go for extended education or military, you will be taken care of. If you go straight to work out of high school, you'd have to pay for it on your own. Maybe some employers would be willing to subsidize the courses or cover costs for guaranteed service years?

Don't know, just another thought, although it may be too close to the tiered class system of sci-fi classics, we are moving that way if we institute a guest-worker program for immigrants anyway.


My mother-in-law is a naturalized US citizen and even though she is a real nice lady, I have to say that if she made it through the process, it's probably not that intense.

[craneref]

Good post, nice rational thinking and support. It is definitely and interesting idea with some merit. I really agree with that the majority of America votes on sound bites which is par to fth eproblem with today's polictical system and how politicians in general can do whatever they wnat and keep getting re-elected. Thanks for the sanity, I appreciate it!

[ck_IN]

Interesting idea but when I was in high school (class of 83) a semester of US government was required. Has that changed?

As for the idea I'm against the tax code for social engineering so I'd vote nay. I don't want to change the tax code, I want to abolish it.

Also the catch if getting your course taught non-partisan. In today's school system that's probably impossible.

[SBK]

This type of thing would never work because if we as Americans really knew how things are supposed to work we'd kick out 99% of our government. And since the only thing important to them is remaining in power, they wouldn't have a lot of incentive to educate the populace.

[CRONUS]

Sounds like Junior High and High School to me. I learned all those things long ago.

[unlurking]

Couple comments from people state that they learned this stuff in high school. Class of '91 here, and we only had requirements for basic history classes. I took AP Euro, but there was only discussion regarding government pertinent to the times and locales. There were government classes, but there were electives. American history also only went up to WWI, so we never covered current or even 80 year old events.

Guessing curriculum has changed. I still can't believe they aren't teaching normal script and have migrated to graph paper for doing basic math.

EDIT:

For an example of the script they have been trying to teach my 12 year old, check the PDF at the below link. How the hell do they expect my son to recognize half these lower case characters in ANY non-cursive format?!?!?! This is another method of CHEATING by the teachers because it is easier to teach the transition to cursive than to teach 2 distinct formats. Personally, cursive is less important in the real world than type text, and my son has been taught appropriate penmanship and been instructed to inform his teachers they are in the wrong (after parent / teacher / principal meetings of course) if they try and bully him into this crap, which seems to happen every time we get a new teacher.

http://www.sofweb.vic.edu.au/eys/pdf/handwriting/AlphabetmodelA.pdf

I can't believe I've had to teach my son the basic "tricks" for multiplication tables because the teachers don't know them or any other tricks assist with rote memorization. His math teacher began instructing algebra last year and I had to explain to him that he needed to isolate the variable in order to determine the answer, with the teacher using these stupid graph paper "tricks" rather than teach WHY algebra worked. It's like they don't know when to use memory tricks, and never realize the need for teaching the WHY.

Sorry for the rant, just really fed up with the education system in this country.

[SBK]

Sounds like Junior High and High School to me. I learned all those things long ago.

There's a lot of things that you would have learned in school in your day that today's kids never even sniff.

[ck_IN]

unlurking I followed that link. WTF is that?! A kid learns block print and they learn cursive. That is just BS. Block print is becoming more important but I do think all kids should learn and know how to practice cursive.

As for math don't even get me started. I have a degree in math and it infuriates me the way math is (not) taught in school. A friend of mine has a 3rd grader who is being taught to add/subtract with set theory. That means if you add 28+2+33 you don't first add 8+2+3 and carry the 1. You add 30+2+33-2 because carrying the 1 is just too old fashioned (teachers quote per my friend). My friend is a doctor and his wife a chemist and they're both scared to death of where their kid will be when he gets to higher math.

YOU had to show your kid how to isolate the variable in algebra? What is this teacher doing? Isolating the variable is rule 1 in algebra. How is this child going to do calculus or, Lord help him, differential equations?

It's no wonder our kids get their lunch ate by other countries in international tests.

US Government as an elective? You're kidding?! Passing with a C or better was a graduation requirement in '83. Some kids took it as a junior 'just in case'.

[unlurking]

ck_IN, it really is frustrating. Seeing those cursive "k"s passed off as block script pissed me off to no end. Then seeing the other like the b, p, z, etc. really sent off. First thing we did was go to the education store and by a whole bunch of penmanship workbooks with proper characters, then took them into the school. The teacher actually told us that they were teaching that script because it was "easier" to teach them cursive later. The pure laziness of that excuse pissed me off even more.

As far as the math goes, man, these people are insane. That set theory sounds like what they were teaching my son. They used graph paper to help the kids keep track of everything! In algebra, they were just teaching them to do the opposite of whatever was on the right side of the equation (early on, all variables were on the left, so they lucked out on getting the answer). I couldn't believe it. I was checking my son's homework, and he got one of the "challenge" problems wrong. I told him to show me his work and it was something like this...

x + 7 = -5
x + 7 +5 = -5 +5
x + 12 = 0
x = 12

After he explained it to me, I just about flipped. I went through his book, and thankfully they were doing it the right way in the book. We had another parent/teacher meet, just to find out that the teacher felt it easier to do it this way?!?!

My ass, it took me 10 minutes to explain it to my son, and he found it very easy. We've found it very beneficial to start buying math and english study books 2+ years ahead of the school and have him work on those during the summer. He'll be starting 9th grade algebra (study book) in August. Sad that I have to teach my son BEFORE the school gets a hold of him.

I'm also teaching him C++ this summer (at his request), so that should help shore up some mathematics for him as well.

As parents, we don't care as much about the grades as others. A C is expected as a minimum, though we factor that subject into summer work, and Bs he gets rewarded for. An A is just icing. Funny how he is about a 3.0 average, but understands more than the 4.0 kids in his class.

We go over all his elective options, to make he is taking good courses. History and government courses will be big in high school for him, we won't be considering them electives.

[htismaqe]

unlurking I followed that link. WTF is that?! A kid learns block print and they learn cursive. That is just BS. Block print is becoming more important but I do think all kids should learn and know how to practice cursive.

As for math don't even get me started. I have a degree in math and it infuriates me the way math is (not) taught in school. A friend of mine has a 3rd grader who is being taught to add/subtract with set theory. That means if you add 28+2+33 you don't first add 8+2+3 and carry the 1. You add 30+2+33-2 because carrying the 1 is just too old fashioned (teachers quote per my friend). My friend is a doctor and his wife a chemist and they're both scared to death of where their kid will be when he gets to higher math.

YOU had to show your kid how to isolate the variable in algebra? What is this teacher doing? Isolating the variable is rule 1 in algebra. How is this child going to do calculus or, Lord help him, differential equations?

It's no wonder our kids get their lunch ate by other countries in international tests.

US Government as an elective? You're kidding?! Passing with a C or better was a graduation requirement in '83. Some kids took it as a junior 'just in case'.

It's the same with history and the reason why I never even considered becoming a teacher.

See, actually TEACHING the kids something might make some of them frustrated, which leads to low self esteem.

[ck_IN]

<i>See, actually TEACHING the kids something might make some of them frustrated, which leads to low self esteem.</i>

So them graduating, getting a job and then losing said job because they're dumber then a fence post is good for their self esteem?

I hear ya, we're graduating some of the dumbest people on the planet but they DO feel good about themselves.

[ck_IN]

Another thing that kills me is kids (un)mastery of English. I'm not an English major and have no clue how to diagram a sentence but I do have certain peeves that seem to get stomped on.

For instance, to, too, two and there, their, and they're. I get emails from my nephew and nephew in law and see things from others their age and they're mangling the usage of those words and there seems to be no reason for it. My newphew is a college grad, the in law is in his 2nd year. But the two seem to have no clue when to use which version and get it wrong far too often!

Here and hear seems to have the same problem. Don't get me started on ask vs axe in the verbal usage.

[htismaqe]

<i>See, actually TEACHING the kids something might make some of them frustrated, which leads to low self esteem.</i>

So them graduating, getting a job and then losing said job because they're dumber then a fence post is good for their self esteem?

I hear ya, we're graduating some of the dumbest people on the planet but they DO feel good about themselves.

You forgot a step.

Graduate. Check.

Get a job. Check.

Lose said job. Check.

GO DOWN TO THE LINE AND SIGN UP FOR GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE.

It's just another way that our governmental bureaucracy sustains itself.

[Iowanian]

I heard an ad on the radio today, telling people who may not even think they need it....to sign up for food stamps.

At some point, for the United States to stay competative, our school system is going to have to be revamped.....going back to teaching actual subjects and skills, grading and separating the cream from the fat.

Some kids will just have to learn early that they're going to lose in life sometimes and that they aren't as smart as Billy.

[patteeu]

I get emails from my nephew and nephew in law and see things from others their age and they're mangling the usage of those words and there seems to be no reason for it.

...

But the two seem to have no clue when to use which version and get it wrong far too often!

Awesome!!! Nice job.

[BucEyedPea]

I teach my profession in one college course, one night a week at an accredited university. I see it each semester. When I see the other adjuncts who teach English or Literature classes I get even more of a mouthful.

I also have a friend in Boston who used to teach history in the public school system. He taught it from the point of view that's required which is often left-wing. He'd also would add a conservative view...he is a conservative. Well, the school authorities put a stop to it and then put him in math only.

That says all as far as I'm concerned.

It will NEVER change if we think govt will handle it...the left has a captive audience with the public school system. IMO, the real solution, and I know it will never happen, but it is to separate govt from education and free it up. At the very least make them more locally controlled, break the back of the left-wing teacher's unions and get all Federal funds out of it, as that's date coincidence to all the educational experimentation as I see it.

[ck_IN]

<i>Awesome!!! Nice job.</i>

Thank you. I sent something similar to both but alas they didn't get it.

<i>or the United States to stay competative, our school system is going to have to be revamped.</i>

Right idea but not far enough. Like the tax code it needs to be abolished.

Don't quote me on dates but public edukashun is a 20th century concept. In the 19th century I believe schoolhouses and schoolmasters were strictly local affairs where tuition was charged. Perhaps the fee would be paid by firewood for the school stove or meals to the schoolmaster but it wasn't guvment supported.

We need to abolish public education and replace it with private schools funded by a voucher system. If we make all schools funded this way then the nonsense of gov money to church schools would be irrelevant. The parent could send their kids anywhere they wanted. All they had to do was arrange transportation and make up the difference, if any, between tution and their voucher.

What do you teach Buc?

[BucEyedPea]

Don't quote me on dates but public edukashun is a 20th century concept. In the 19th century I believe schoolhouses and schoolmasters were strictly local affairs where tuition was charged. Perhaps the fee would be paid by firewood for the school stove or meals to the schoolmaster but it wasn't guvment supported.

They also had openings free of charge for the poor too.

[Baby Lee]

This may seem a little harsh, but tax breaks were a stick, this could be a carrot. At the same time, I don't think the government should pay for the program (other than oversight) as most people usually appreciate the things they have to work for more than things just handed to them. If you go for extended education or military, you will be taken care of. If you go straight to work out of high school, you'd have to pay for it on your own. Maybe some employers would be willing to subsidize the courses or cover costs for guaranteed service years?
If requiring citizens get a free photo ID to vote 'unfairly targets the poor and minorities,' what does this proposal do?

[unlurking]

If requiring citizens get a free photo ID to vote 'unfairly targets the poor and minorities,' what does this proposal do?
If you're on welfare they send you "education stamps"? Honestly, it does separate the masses, but I'm not sure if that really is such a bad thing. We've pretty much eliminated natural selection in the evolution of humans. I think we need to bring it back.