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Raiderhader
12-05-2000, 05:58 PM
OK, I know that you are disapointed, frustrated, upset, and just plain mad. But trust me this is not the best way to handle the situation.
For those of you who want to lose so as to get a top draft pick, what good would that do if we don't use him right? He would be with us for a couple of years then leave (probaly to one of our divisional rivals). A high draft pick will not help as much as you people would like to belive.
Those of you who want the team to lose out so that evryone on the coaching staff is fired, what about the talent on the team that does not want to be associated with a losing team. We have some people that other teams would scoop up in a New York minute (for example Gonzo). These players are more likely to leave if the fans are not even behind them! Why should the players go out and play for fans who don't want them to win. Why do you think they are out there? I understand that you want to clean house as far as coaching, but you take a risk of losing your team as well, because who would want to play for fans like you? I sure wouldn't!
Again I understand your frustrations, but turning on your team is not the way to deal with it. It really makes you guys look like band wagon fans. It is not very becoming of you.

!!!GO CHIEFS!!!

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

G_Man
12-05-2000, 06:09 PM
1. The days where our draft picks don't play are behind us. Morris has started almost every game this year.

2. None of our great players are FAs next year. And they won't be doing anything in KC anyway with Gun and co. in charge. Do you really think they would want to stay around with a coaching staff that has no clue?

G_Man
12-05-2000, 06:12 PM
And the team is not losing due to poor fan support; it's losing because of the coaching staff. The fans' anger and disappointment has been directed at the coaches, not the players. Look at what happened at the CP show.

Phobia
12-05-2000, 06:12 PM
Dude, our players ALREADY play for a losing organization. Winning out ensures a .500 season. The ramifications of 8-8 season and a 5-11 season are the same. Neither goes to the playoffs. 5-11 teams have weak schedules the following year AND draft high. 8-8 teams get average schedules and 15-20 range in the draft.

You are being equally negative assuming the draft pick won't pan out. That makes you look like a bandwagon fan and is unbecoming.

Raiderhader
12-05-2000, 06:55 PM
G_Man, first of all I didn't say that our rookies didn't play, and I did not say that that would make a differnce one way or the other. Second, the fact that none of our great players are FAs next year does not mean that they won't still split when they get the chance. I also did not say that the team was losing do to poor fan support (you are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth). I said that the players will not want to play for a team who's fans want it to lose.
KPhobia, sure they are playing for a losing team, but they really will not stay if they see fans that WANT them to go out there and lose. These players take an awful big chance of sustaining a serious injury while they are on the field, and they would ask themselves why take the chance if the fans want us to lose anyways. As for the soft schedule, who cares? All that does is gets our critics talking about what a weak schedule we have. I would much rather have a strong schedule and prove what we are made of. About the draft pick not panning out, that is based upon the status quo. As for being negative about anything, look who's talking! You people want YOUR team, the team that you love, that you cry over, that you get mad at, and all the other feelings that go with attaching yourself to something or someone, you want them to LOSE. Now that is negative, and it puts Chiefs fans in a bad light. You people are the ones who look like bandwagon fans, getting mad because of the situation at hand and just giving up. I still root for my team to win. I refuse to turn on them just because they are having a bad year.


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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

[This message has been edited by raiderhader (edited 12-05-2000).]

G_Man
12-05-2000, 07:50 PM
"...what good would (a high draft pick) do if we don't use him right?"

I assume that's a shot at our coaching staff then? Wouldn't losing out and having them fired resolve this to some extent?

As for the players not wanting to play for fans who want to see them lose, where do you think they see that we want to lose? I think it's well known that the only reason we want to lose is so that we can have a coaching change or a high draft pick. Do you think this would offend the players that we want a new coach for them? Nobody's saying we want to lose because of the players. That would just be ridiculous.

Phobia
12-05-2000, 07:50 PM
I know I talk out both sides of my mouth on this issue. However, if you are in my living room, I'm screaming and cheering for my team to play their best and win if possible just like they were still in the playoff hunt. I was just as dejected at our loss on MNF as the next fan.

I'm just being very practical in that our chances for next year are greatly improved if we lose our final 3 games. I'm not saying to throw games away. If we can gain some momentum and confidence by winning the final 3 games, I'm all for it. I just think we're better off losing for a variety of reasons:
1. Draft pick
2. Schedule
3. New coaching staff
4. Possible exposure for more rookies & backups if allowed on the field the final 3 games.

Any of those reasons by themselves are more compelling than "playing for pride" or whatever other reason one can conjure up to win the remaining 3 games. All 4 together almost demand 3 losses to close the season.

All that said, I'll still be in my red gear rooting for the Chiefs on sunday. And I'll be disappointed if they lose.

Some people just handle adversity differently, raider-hader. If you can accept that without being judgemental, you'll be much happier with yourself, your fellow fans, and your favorite football team.

G_Man
12-05-2000, 07:53 PM
I don't know where you even get this stuff about the players not wanting to play for fans who want to see them lose. Did the fans that were absent from the stadium want to see us lose? No. We want to see them lose NOW, when we have no chance at the playoffs. We want to see them lose because we have no faith that the upper management will make changes without drastic meauses. If the players can't see that (and I don't see what they could mistake that for), then they're pretty stupid. The players are probably just as fed up with these idiots in charge as we are.

G_Man
12-05-2000, 07:55 PM
NO fan WANTS to see his team lose. But now, we have no choice. And if losing means we get a quality coaching staff next year then I'm all for it. For your information, I was cheering for us to win last night. But when we lost I wasn't too upset because I am optimistic that it may induce some change.

Stryker
12-05-2000, 08:35 PM
G-man:

Post #8 says it all. That is exactly how I felt last night.

KPhobia (post #6):

I think we all are talking out the side of our mouth. Like g-man said, we want to win and we cheer and cheer BUT when it is all said and done it is almost RELIEF for the sake of change. Personally, last night was the first time this season I did not piss, ***** and moan after the loss.

raiderhader:

I doubt very seriously that the players feel like they are NOT loved (lack of words). They enjoy the game and understand the triumphs and losses. They also make a hell of a lot of money and reallistically probably do not care how the fan feels. I personally believe that the players know a lot more about what is going on (internally) than the media could ever glorify. This is a business and one in which customers will always be there (fans). I see your point but I do not believe that it is as melodramatic as you think it might be.

Stryker
Still red till dead! GO CHIEFS!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>

Tribal Warfare
12-05-2000, 09:48 PM
Peterson has 12 years to build a team and this is his product? Its time for a new GM!

Tribal Warfare
12-05-2000, 09:49 PM
doublepost

[This message has been edited by ChiefPriority (edited 12-05-2000).]

Joe Seahawk
12-05-2000, 09:55 PM
If I was a Chief fan I would be pulling for a 500 season, IMO losing the last eight games of the year is far more harmful to the Chiefs org. than giving up a spot or two in the draft. Trust me I speak from experience. :eek:

The Seahawks have the same record as you, except Holmgren has the team fired up to finish at 500, we have won three of the last four (stinkin Broncos) and the guys are having fun and improving. That, IMO is the attitude a team heading in the right direction should take.....Joe

500 sounds real good to me, well, not really, but I hope we finish 500



[This message has been edited by Joe Seahawk (edited 12-05-2000).]

Bwana
12-05-2000, 09:57 PM
"Why should the players go out and play for fans who don't want them to win. Why do you think they are out there?"

A big fat check for a lot of them. From what I have see for the last several games, there hasn't been a lot of heart out there on the field. There are exceptions, but this seems to be the rule. So I turn the question around, why should the fans cheer for players who don't give a rats a$$?

DJay23
12-05-2000, 10:02 PM
My temperament is not negative or frustrated. I think it is possible to be positive while rooting against one's favorite professional football team. It is with an eye to the future that I now hope for Chiefs losses. Like everyone else I got all jittery and excited when we almost won last night, but after we lost I wasn't even minutely upset because I know it may be for the better. Think about it, winning any more games does nothing but give Gunther (and possibly some of his Stooges) a foothold on their jobs for next year. I have certainly not given up on my team and I know no one else here has done that either. I liken this situation to one where you allow someone you love (say a child or sibling) to go through a tough time with as little support as possible to help that loved one build character and learn values.

None of us here wanted this situation to happen, we were all "inarticulate with rage" during just about every loss until the 2nd San Diego game when we were all but out of it. I know we all want the best for our team and we haven't given up, quite the contrary.

I for one can't wait to get all of my new Chiefs gear for Christmas and wear it with pride.

stevieray
12-05-2000, 10:23 PM
I wore my Chiefs gear today...In Denver.

Anybody else?

Tribal Warfare
12-05-2000, 10:35 PM
always have and always will wear my Chiefs cap everyday.

Raiderhader
12-05-2000, 10:36 PM
You see I don't understand this line of thinking, because to me loyality is of the utmost importance. And being a loyal person, I do not like to see someone or something that I love do poorly. It gives what I love a bad rep, and it gives me a bad rep. Plus the thought of rooting against a team that I have attached myself to, and given my support, is down right wrong. I don't know that I could look myself in the mirror knowing that I have turned on something I love. I just can't do it. For those of you who think that the players are out there for the money, I can't disagree with that, but why did they start playing to begin with? For the love of the game. These players are out there, because they love what they do, and the fact they get paid ridiculous sums of money to do it is an added bonus that, unfortunitly, does become the focus of way to many players. I don't like it, but that is life. I still think that handling this situation this way will have a bigger impact on the players than you all realize. I also would like to say that I agree with Joe Seahawk in post 12. He has a very good point. I can see that I am not going to talk you out of this way of thinking, so I guess that I will quit trying (what is wrong with me? I never give up trying to convince someone that I am right, when I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am. I'm slipping). Trust me, there are other ways with wich to deal with these matters. But since you have your minds made up, so be it.

NEVER SAY DIE!
!!!GO CHIEFS!!!

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

[This message has been edited by raiderhader (edited 12-05-2000).]

Tribal Warfare
12-05-2000, 10:41 PM
Raiderhader- we're demonstrating tough love

Raiderhader
12-05-2000, 10:45 PM
CP, I belive strongly in tuff love, but I am not sure that this qualifies. When you love someone, you don't want to see them fall. You know that it will happen, but you take no liking to it at all.

NEVER SAY DIE!
!!!GO CHIEFS!!!

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

Frazod
12-05-2000, 10:46 PM
We need to clean house in coaching and management. Our current bunch of clowns has failed. They have lost the respect of the fans and the players. The season is already a failure. If we don't dump Carl, Gun and the Stooges, the future will be a failure as well. They had their chance, and they blew it. Could any of you perform this poorly at your job and NOT GET FIRED? I sure couldn't.

I don't like watching the Chiefs lose week after week. But I'll take it over watching them lose year after year. We have too much talent to be this bad, and no one in the league is playing as bad as the Chiefs are right now. Someone else will do better. I don't see how they could do worse.

Of course, what any of us doom-types say doesn't mean much. We aren't losing to good teams anymore - we're getting slapped around by the doormats, the other doormats, of the NFL. I simply don't see how the Chiefs could beat anyone right now. They're coming close, they're getting blown out, they're beating themselves, they're getting beat by others. There is only one constant.

Tick-tock, Gun.

milkman
12-06-2000, 06:16 AM
Frazod,
You bring up something that leads me to a question.
I am/have been of like mind with many of you. I have been rooting for the Chiefs to win each game with the same ferver and passion during the game as always, while at the end, when the losses have mounted up, I haven't been nearly as upset, because with each loss I have felt that Goonther MaGoo's hold on his job was slipping more and more.
The question, since it is clear to us, the fans, that MaGoo and the staff have lost the respect of the players and fans, should it also not be clear to the people that matter, the people who have the power to make the necessary changes? Would winning at this point change that perception? If not, then do any of us want to see continued losses just to improve our draft position? I don't.
the milkman
really doesn't like losing

[This message has been edited by Lompoc Brave (edited 12-06-2000).]

Lightning Rod
12-06-2000, 11:17 AM
While I will never advocate intentionally losing games at this point The W's and L's are less important than evaluation of young talent. The Chiefs can not make the playoffs this year so they need to take this opportunity to evaluate their players under true game conditions. Cloud, Moreau, etc.. need to get a chance to show what they can or can't do. Todd Collins needs some PT to show if he is capable of being the Chiefs 2nd string QB next year. I say throw them in the pond and see if they sink or swim.

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"A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory."

Cormac
12-06-2000, 11:32 AM
IMO we should play the final 3 games to evaluate young players (as Rod said), and also to win if at all possible.

I don't care about draft position. If we pick 5th or 6th and get hit with a huge rookie contract, how the hell are we going to fit it under the cap? Anyway, there are plenty of top quality players which can be picked around 15th if we finish 8-8. Obviously that is where we drafted Gonzo and Tait. It depends more on talent evaluation at the end of the day, than on where you pick.

I also don't care about schedule. It doesn't matter anymore given the age of parity. Last year Denver had an "easy" schedule but ended up playing teams that ALL finished .500 or better. Oakland's schedule went the opposite way, looked like a ***** and then turned out much more easy than anticipated given which direction Minnesota, GB and Miami (among others) went.

If our coaching staff is retained, whether we finish 5-11 or 8-8 I will be sooooo disgusted. There is NOTHING they can do in the remaining 3 games to redeem themselves. So we might as well win them for confidence sake. Winning out might avoid a "habit of losing" from developing. I hope we finish 8-8 to carry some momentum (to go with a new coaching staff!) into next season. Losing is never good IMO.

Go Chiefs.

htismaqe
12-06-2000, 11:46 AM
A very, very good friend of mine has been a methamphetamine addict for about 7 years. He's been arrested, spent time in prison, has 3 kids he'll never see again (and he's never been married), he hurts everybody he comes into contact with, and so on. Everyday we tried to talk to him. Everyday we ROOTED FOR HIM TO WIN THIS BATTLE.

About 6 weeks ago, 2 guys broke into his house, supposedly because he owed them money or drugs or whatever, and beat him within an inch of his life. For about 4 days, he was sober. Then he came back one night and said, "you know, if I hadn't of been tweaking that night, I wouldn't have been strong enough to fight those guys off."

At some point, it became painfully obvious that the only way he will ever beat this is to have something so bad, so vile, happen that he won't be able to go back.

That is how I feel about the Chiefs. This team is going nowhere, and fast. If they win the last 3 to go 8-8, Carl will see that as a "step in the right direction" and he will RETAIN the WORST COACHING staff in the NFL. If they lose the last 3, it's quite possible that even CP won't be back. And in the long run, "the big picture", that's a GOOD thing.

I can assure you that the players right now understand how the fans feel. EVERYBODY, player and fan alike, is frustrated with the coaching staff and you can see it in their faces.

If we win out, go 8-8, and retain the current GM and staff, how many more 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 seasons are you willing to go through?

I love the Chiefs and I root for them to win. However, if they don't, I will be happy with that, this time.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

htismaqe
12-06-2000, 11:51 AM
To add to what's already been said...

It's not about Gunther getting fired. 5-11 or 8-8, I think he will be retained. Firing him with 2 years left on his contract would make the King look real bad.

However, the difference between 5-11 and 8-8 is HUGE when Lamar looks at CP's contract. That's the key. It's not Gunther, or the stooges that need to go. If CP doesn't stay, the exit of the coaching staff is IMPLIED.

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Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

TEX
12-06-2000, 07:50 PM
I just want to win one more game, the Donx of course. Then I wouldn't mind finishing 6-10. That would be the best of both worlds. Bad enough to get a good pick and fire all the coordinators and maybe even Gun. A double digit sloss season could do the trick. However, a 7-9 one will not guarantee a good pick.