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View Full Version : GrrrrrrBackers and Bashers.....


47mack
12-10-2000, 02:39 PM
Lets hear you comments!!

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TWB

DaWolf
12-10-2000, 02:53 PM
We won...

kcred
12-10-2000, 03:24 PM
Elvis looked good today, with the exception of that 1st INT. I swear the Carolina guy was so open, I thought WE had scored, then saw the red jersies. The other bounced off DAs helmet, so won't condemn him there. Other than that, and with TR running, the offense was great, without the turnovers. Overall I would grade him about a B.

DaWolf
12-10-2000, 03:39 PM
And he ran the ball 5 times... :)

ck_IN
12-10-2000, 04:54 PM
It'll be interesting to see how the Grbitchers spin this one. At various times in the last two weeks I heard:

1. Elvis never runs for first downs
2. He puts up good numbers but only wins count.
3. He's selfish. He never congratulates his receivers after a TD catch.

Ok, today we had EG scrambling for first downs, including that 20yrd run. His numbers were decent and we got the win. He was the first to congratulate Gonzo after the ricochet TD catch.

I wonder what their newest EG related whine will be?

Raiderhader
12-10-2000, 08:37 PM
I have been reluctant to get in these discussions,but since all the other Grbashers seem to be afraid, I guess I will step in. I know that he is a good passer, but as I have said before I give alot of credit to our receiving corps. Again, that is not to take away from his arm. But my problems with him come from the D-U-M dumb mistakes he makes. Yes I know that every one makes those mistakes, but he seems to make them on a regular basis. As for the running, yes he had a great run today. I was impressed. I didn't know he could do that. I am sure he surprised alot of people. But there was a run before that, when he slid after a 2 yard pick up. He could have stayed up longer, but didn't. And don't tell me about how he was surrounded. He had how many guys hot on his tail on that big run? My point is, if he can run so well, why doesn't he give it his all every time he takes off? I mean we need a leader out there who will say, I'm going to cary this team to a victory myself if I have to. And then actually go out and attempt to do it. We had been on 5 game losing streak, he should have been doing stuff like this along. Willing his team to win. Giving it 110% all the time. While he has improved, I still don't want him on my team. I decided I wanted him gone 2 years ago after the Monday night loss (to I think Pitt) and he came out and started pointing fingers at his teammates. It is not just because of his play. To me loyalty is a very big thing, and he showed none that night. Alright start picking me apart, and mutalating me.

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

DaWolf
12-10-2000, 09:35 PM
How they'll spin it? LOL, just go to the other board and see how they're spinning it. Now he's just lucky and he doesn't throw any passes on the money and he has no heart.

Of course when I point out that he completed 70% of his passes today and a couple of TD's were dropped, one guy told me that it isn't the reciever's job to catch the ball, it is Grbac's job to get it to them so they can make easier catches, and another guy saying I loved to make excuses...

Chiefnj
12-10-2000, 10:02 PM
Ck,

Whether you admit it or not, Elvis has not run the ball effectively in the past and was unwilling to take a hit to get a first down. Similarly, this was one of the first times he ran to the endzone to congratulate a receiver on a TD pass. Are they steps in the right direction? Yes, and good for him. Thank God he is finally coming around, it has only taken him 8 1/2 years.

Elvis has shown a lot this past week beginning with accepting the fact that he choked big time in New England. Hopefully he will continue to grow. I'd like to see him do what Whitlock suggests in today's article and demand that Carl obtain a top notch HB prior to renegotiating his contract.

DaWolf
12-11-2000, 12:24 AM
What I don't understand is this knock about congradulating his recievers. He always has gone to the end zone and done that. Hell I even watched an old Michigan/Notre Dame game on ESPN Classic and he was running to the end zone congradulating Desmond Howard...

CASHMAN
12-11-2000, 12:37 AM
ELVIS is allways trying to make things happen hell sometimes he throws into double coverage or over and under throws the ball but he is all heart and is trying to get the ball to the great recivers we have. and completes 70% of his passes and is ranked #2 in the NFL in passing not bad? and should be named as a backup in the prowbowl?? he is just 1 man and is trying to make things happen when and if he can.

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Dont just say it, BRINGGGGG ITTTTTTT!!!!!!!!

Idaho Chief
12-11-2000, 07:33 AM
I just wonder about the Grbashers. They seem to want him to be perfect. Never make a bad decision. Never miss a throw. Never throw the ball too hard or too soft. Never to high or to low.

I wonder....do they critic there own job performance so harshly? Do they hold themselves to the same standard? How glad are they that their Managers aren't as critical about their job performance?

I'm thinking that their standards are just a bit lower...no one is perfect. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

WisChief
12-11-2000, 08:00 AM
Do Grbashers really want Elvis to win and do well? I think not. Do they want to Chiefs to win and do well? I think so. Most people that have been ripping Elvis a new one have been doing it so long that their pride no longer will allow them to change their stance. You should hear my mother whine about him. There is not a Basher on either board that hates this guy like she does :D. Explain and show to her that he is not the problem and it goes on deaf ears, just like all bashers.

I only wish that this could be put to rest because Elvis Grbac is not a problem with this team that we need to discuss.

ck_IN
12-11-2000, 08:18 AM
Like dawolf I don't understand the big deal about running into the endzone to congratulate a TD. This isn't Pop Warner. These guys have scored TD's before. FWIW I have seen him numerous times run to the endzone to congratulate a catch. I've also seen him wait till he and the receiver get to the sideline. What's the difference?

As for his running, personally I don't like my QB's running around too much. LB's and safeties LOVE to get a clean shot on a QB. If you're slow to begin with and your backups are as bad as ours, then throw the ball away and leave the scrambling to McNabb and Gannon.

58Forever
12-11-2000, 11:20 AM
He was also quick to console Gonzo after he dropped the TD pass later...he has become our leader...like it or not...I like it...he's the best QB we have and I don't see any better that we could get even if we wanted too...

DanT
12-11-2000, 11:47 AM
ck_IN's reply #4 is right on the money. If Grbashers has been asked before the season started to list their standards for a good QB, Elvis would have met almost all of the reasonable ones. The Grbashers just keep coming up with vaguer and vaguer standards to apply to Grbac. Not congratulating the receivers? Please.

Also, since when did the Chiefs have such an outstanding receiving corps? Before the season started, everyone thought that Gonzo was great and I personally thought that Alexander and Lockett were a good #2/#3 combo, but I sure as hell don't remember anybody on this board or in the national press talking about how great our receiving corps was. Discounting Grbac's success by pointing to the quality of our receivers is bogus, in my mind, because (i) our receiving corps wasn't touted until after the season started and (ii) there can not be many other receiver corps that have dropped more sure TD passes this year than ours has.

KCWolfman
12-11-2000, 11:54 AM
Hader - While I agree that Grbac needs to think more completely, you are complaining about a 5 game losing streak where he has passed over 300 yds in all but one game (which he only missed by 24 yds), and over 500 in one as well.

Let's not blame those loses on Grbac, with the possible exception of not finishing the rabbit out of the hat trick against NE. Our defense and ST has let us down again and again.

KCTitus
12-11-2000, 01:43 PM
I would like to add that before the season began the 3700yd mark was discussed. The usual suspects said that there was little or no chance of Elvis given his current ability to read defenses would ever throw for 3700+ yards.

He's reached that point. Now, the argument has been put forth, mainly by fluffy, that ANY QB that throws as much as EG could put up those kind of numbers.

Someone said that if EG went over 4K in a season, he would be in very elite company, I guess the standard, now in week 15, has gone from ELITE to ANYONE.

Bob Dole
12-11-2000, 01:55 PM
Does Elvis still suffer from craniorectal dysfunction sometimes? Yes. But so does almost any quarterback (or running back, of receiver, or...)

Elvis has improved over the past 2 seasons, and improved a lot, IBDHO. Bob Dole remembers after game one commenting that Elvis actually looked off one receiver and went to his second, which at that point was something new (and something the bashers harped on repeatedly last season).

As far as the inability/unwillingness to scramble: Bob Dole seems to remember reading before last season that the coaching staff had instructed Elvis to throw it away rather than scramble, because he had missed significant playing time due to injuries. Bob Dole has no reason to believe that situation changed this season. If it comes down to Elvis seldom scrambling for a first downs, or Elvis missing a couple of games do to an injury received when scrambling, Bob Dole will take the seldom scramble option.

Like any other player on a team, each needs to be evaluated and their skills used to an advantage. Elvis ain't no speed demon, so Bob Dole is comfortable with the "don't scramble" mode.

Cormac
12-11-2000, 01:57 PM
2000 Season Stats:

Peyton Manning
298 of 483 for 3792 yards, 28 TDs & 14 INTs
31 rushes for 99 yds with 0 TDs.

Elvis Grbac
294 of 487 for 3779 yards, 27 TDs & 14 INTs
25 rushes for 57 yds with 1 TD.

Peyton Manning has Edgerrin James in the backfield. Grbac has T-Rich, Anders, Moreau, Cloud and the incomparable Bennett in the backfield.

My God, Grbac sucks! http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

KCTitus
12-11-2000, 02:11 PM
Cormac: you also forgot to mention EG's WR corps which is the real reason for these high statistics.

KCWolfman
12-11-2000, 02:15 PM
Gregg - LTNS. How are you? Actually, I think that Harrison is no more an asset to the colts than Gonzalez is to our team.

WisChief
12-11-2000, 02:17 PM
Damm, and if I'm not mistaken, I don't think Peyton the all mighty has won a playoff game.

KCTitus
12-11-2000, 02:20 PM
Good, Russ, thanks.

Harrison, Wilkins/E.G Green, Pathon, Dilger

v.

Alexander, Morris, Lockett, Gonzalez

Would EG do even better or worse with Manning's corps?

DanT
12-11-2000, 02:42 PM
Here's an excerpt from the Sports Illustrated Team Preview for the Chiefs. It captures the flavor of how our WR corps was regarded before the season started:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/2000/nfl_preview/news/2000/07/16/chiefs_preview/

"[question #]4.) Do you want to know where the Chiefs' top wideout, Derrick Alexander, finished among the NFL's wide receivers? Answer: 42nd."

I say that anyone who thinks Elvis' passing numbers are great because he has a great WR corps has it *** -backwards.<P>

KCWolfman
12-11-2000, 03:22 PM
Gregg - I see, overall I do stand corrected. Thanks

Snapper
12-11-2000, 05:09 PM
I think E had another "brain fart" when there was 2:20+ time left in the first half and he couldn't get a play off b4 the 2:00 warning, he looked surprised when they blew the whistle!

KCTitus
12-12-2000, 07:33 AM
So with 2 games to play, do you think that EG will surpass the current Chiefs record held by Bill Kenney of 4348 yards in a season(1983).

He's only 569 yds shy of that mark. I do think it's possible.

Kenney went 346/603 for 4348.
EG is sitting at 294/487 for 3779.<BR>

Spott
12-12-2000, 07:49 AM
It looks like Grbac is right on track with Bill Kenny. Kenney went 6-10 and Grbac has a chance at 6-10. Did you know that Bill Kenney never won a playoff game? ;)

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It looks I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!

47mack
12-12-2000, 08:00 AM
Idaho & Wis

I don't feel that I fit either backer or basher. I do believe that backers are just as ridiculous as the bashers. Grbac makes plenty of stupid mistakes, granted all QB's make mistakes, but the backers will blame everyone else but him. Just as when Grbac does good, the bashers credit everyone else. IMO neither is any better than the other.

The bashers know that he cannot be perfect, they also don't want him to fail. They just want some consistancy out of the so called "great" QB people claim he is. I don't think he has shown consistancy in many areas (ie. leadership, decision making, etc).

For someone to constantly make excuses for him is no better or intelligent than blaming him for everything that goes wrong.

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TWB

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 08:40 AM
Anyone that would compare Grbac to Manning is just being obnoxious, or doesn't know squat about football.

How many times has Manning singlehandedly lost a game for Indy?

This season Grbac met all of my criteria for being a good QB, except for one: No bonehead mistakes that cost the team games.

When/if he develops a triple-digit IQ, I'll accept him as a starting QB. He hasn't yet.

KCTitus
12-12-2000, 08:50 AM
You mean 'elite' dont you? Those were your words before the season.

Of course, I can understand backpedaling.

morphius
12-12-2000, 09:13 AM
Actually didn't Manning help to lose that game against the Raiders, seemed he had a few INT's on the wrong side of the field late to get the other team back into the game, but I'm sure those are just nitpicking details...

KCTitus
12-12-2000, 09:18 AM
Or the NE/Indy game where Manning threw 3 Int's in the 4th quarter alone one of which led to 7 by NE...

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 09:45 AM
If you guys want to believe that Grbac is Manning's equal, go ahead.

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 09:46 AM
Since Gannon obviously hasn't lost many games for the Raiders & only has one real weapon on offense, are you guys ready to admit that he's superior to Grbac?

I'm not, but using your logic you'd have to come to that conclusion.

morphius
12-12-2000, 09:48 AM
Clint - Which Weapon, Tim Brown, his running game or his own legs?

Morphius
Yet again, just pointing at the facts.

morphius
12-12-2000, 09:52 AM
Clint - I ask because he throws a lot of balls to his RB's and they get a lot of YAC, so they have good moves both running the ball and receiving the ball, so to say they are not a weapon is being a bit blind, IMO.

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 10:25 AM
Brown is his only receiving threat...as if you didn't know what I meant.

If anyone on this thread is "blind", it's the people that actually believe that Grbac is Manning's equal.

Cannibal
12-12-2000, 12:22 PM
Manning's first three years as a starter:

11,798 Yards
80 TD's
57 INT's


Grbac's first three years as a starter:

6,474 Yards
38 TD's
33 INT's


I think it's pretty obvious who is, and will be the better QB. Grbac has improved and is now an upper echelon QB, but let's not get carried away here.

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 12-12-2000).]

WisChief
12-12-2000, 12:33 PM
Cannibal, since you already have done the work on those stats - would you please post the number of games played in each case? http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

mlyonsd
12-12-2000, 12:36 PM
Looking at this years stats they are pretty close.

Considering the earlier years of Grbac isn't necesarily fair because of the Marty/Gun (early philosophy) of only passing on 3rd and 12.

I also bet Grbac could benefit from an E'ggerin.

[This message has been edited by mlyonsd (edited 12-12-2000).]

Cannibal
12-12-2000, 12:55 PM
Grbac: 34 games played in first three years as a starter.

Manning: 48 games played in first three years.

Despite Manning playing in more games he still posted far superior numbers.

Let's face it homers, Manning is a probable Hall of Fame candidate and was a # 1 overall pick. While Grbac is a journeyman and was an 8th round pick.

A more fair comparison to Grbac would be Steve Beurline.

KCTitus
12-12-2000, 01:15 PM
If anyone on this thread is "blind", it's the people that actually believe that Grbac is Manning's equal

Only one to state that Grbac is Manning's equal is you, Clint.

As far as the 'last 3 years' arguments, I say Bullbleep. Comparing apples to oranges and it serves no real factual basis.

It's got to suck seeing EG succeed after last year being compared to Stoney Case, Scott Mitchell and Ryan Leaf.

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 02:06 PM
Go back, read the replies. Manning was repeatedly mentioned by others, in an obvious attempt to compare the 2 QBs.

Numbers like those posted by Cannibal didn't seem to be "apples and oranges" to Carl Peterson when he compared Grbac's first 30 starts to Bledsoe's.

BTW, Scott Mitchell had one 4,000 yard season.

WisChief
12-12-2000, 02:10 PM
"Let's face it homers, Manning is a probable Hall of Fame candidate and was a # 1 overall pick"

Based on what? His numbers and 1 13-3 season? PUH LEESE!!! Just as Elvis has yet to win a playoff game, neither has Manning and he's on his way to the HOF. WTF???

Cannibal
12-12-2000, 02:24 PM
If Manning continues to post his current numbers, barring injury, he will go to the HOF.

He will shatter many passing records.<P>

KCTitus
12-12-2000, 02:26 PM
Grbac's numbers this season were compared to a QB no one here doubts is a good QB. NO ONE said 'equal' that's your word.

Is it an interesting point to wonder whether or not EG's numbers would be improved if he had an ACTUAL running game? I think it's a valid conclusion.

If I remember right, when Carl, who I didnt know posted on this BB BTW, compared EG to Bledsoe, the usual suspect said exactly what I said - that you cant compare the two for many reasons. I agreed then and I agree now, that you cannot compare the two in that way, ie, over the last 3 seasons.

Cannibal
12-12-2000, 02:45 PM
Ask any GM in the league this side of Carl Peterson who they'd rather start a franchise with, Grbac or Manning, they all take Manning hands down. I guarantee it.

WisChief
12-12-2000, 02:49 PM
Canibal - I agree that Manning is putting up some VERY GOOD numbers. Good numbers will not get him to the HOF. He better get some playoff victories, SB appearences/victories, MVP's, multiple ProBowl appearences (and/or on each of the preceding) and like you said, remain injury free.

Tony G is also doing some very impressive things - probably on his way to the HOF IF he does the above things, BUT he still drops too many ball just as Manning still throws illtimed ints.

Let's give these two superstars time before we inshrine them today. And let's give Elvis his props when called for. Who do you think has been throwing the ball to Tony?

Cannibal
12-12-2000, 02:52 PM
Dan Marino is going to go to the Hall based mostly on his gaudy stats. So will Manning.

I'm not bashing Grbac here at all. I've already said that Grbac is now in the upper echelon of QB's.

I'm just don't think he's in the same class as Manning.

Not even close.

KCTitus
12-12-2000, 02:55 PM
Cannibal: No sh!t. That's not the point, and I think you know that.

Carl did not pass over Manning to get EG, so it's a moot point because KC had no chance to draft him. However, it does say something when this 'Journeyman' QB does put up Manning like numbers.

There are many factors for why he's put up these numbers. I'd like to think that among the factors would be his ability.

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 03:01 PM
Let's hope his ability is the main reason he's been successful this season. He should have no problem equalling his production next season if that's the case.

Cannibal
12-12-2000, 03:02 PM
I'm not bashing Grbac here at all. I've already said that Grbac is now in the upper echelon of QB's.

I'm just don't think he's in the same class as Manning.

Not even close.

DanT
12-12-2000, 03:05 PM
Unless he gets injured, I believe Manning has a great chance of being a Hall-of-Fame candidate after his career is over. He has great QB tools (e.g. mind, footwork, arm) and has demonstrated that he knows how to use them (e.g. NFL career to date).

Just my opinion...that just happens to be shared by a hell of a lot of other fans! http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/wink.gif

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 03:12 PM
Manning also broke every significant rookie passing record. That was WITHOUT Edgerrin James.

KCTitus
12-12-2000, 03:21 PM
Yeah, that was with some guy named Faulk.

Clint: I dont know if it is his ability is the main reason, I'm more of the opinion it's the players around him (Gonzo, Alexander, Morris), but Im sure his ability has played a significant role.

DaWolf
12-12-2000, 03:25 PM
Darrell Russell's take on Peyton Manning before Manning choked a game away to the Raiders:

"You can get into Manning's head," Russell said. "Although a lot of people pump him up and he's one of the premier quarterbacks, if you look at his track record he can't really win the big game. He never won the big game in college and he hasn't won it now.

"So whether it's us getting into his head or himself getting into his own head, there's definitely some space to do that. There's some elbow room."

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 03:32 PM
Russell knows nothing about winning a big game in the NFL.

If you can get inside Manning's head, you can park an RV inside Grbac's head.

DaWolf
12-12-2000, 03:39 PM
But Clint, so far he has been right. Tennessee couldn't win the championship until Manning left, he never beat Florida, he lost in the first round last year, he is struggling to make the playoffs this year, and he has made more than one boneheaded throw this year. And to top it all off, after Russell said those things, Manning proceeded to hand the game back to the Raiders in the second half by throwing dumb interceptions and not adjusting to the Raider defense and tipping Biekert off as to what plays he was calling...

WisChief
12-12-2000, 03:41 PM
Clint - whats your point? That they are BOTH basket cases? :D

They both choke away the most important plays/games. Manning is good, but he has yet to prove anything other than he is making it in the NFL.

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 03:46 PM
I'm confident that Manning will end up being considered far better than Grbac when all is said and done. Just my opinion.

DaWolf
12-12-2000, 03:55 PM
I'm confident of that too because he's going to play more years, get more starts, and have more chances at having better teams. But right now it is more hype than anything in a similar number of starts. And both are getting better but will continue to have their rough spots, whether we want to deny it or not...

Clint in Wichita
12-12-2000, 04:08 PM
We'll see.

Lte's not forget that Manning is significantly younger than Grbac and has already put together superior stats.

Packfan
12-12-2000, 04:09 PM
First, some of you guys wanted to compare Grbac to Favre, now, you want to compare Grbac to Peyton Manning. While we are at it, why not compare Derrick Alexander to Randy Moss? Similar numbers, right?

Some of you guys conviently forget the most important stat of them all: Wins and loses.

One moron said that the Grbac cant be blamed for any of the loses during the five game losing streak. Oh yea? How about the seven spot his offense put up against the league's worst defense (49ers)? Or how about the game Grbac decided to sit out because of a "bruised pinky" (Chargers)? And what about the total mental meltdown he had against another rotten defense (Pats)? Also, when Oakland is building a 24-3 lead, what was Grbac doing? He racked up numbers in garbage time duing that game. Some of you guys have trouble seeing through that. Just like New England. Grbac doesnt do anything for three quarters, then produces against a prevent defense (garbage time) and puts up big numbers. On paper, it looks great. But the average NFL fan knows better.

Cormac
12-12-2000, 04:42 PM
Jeez I didn't expect this response to just posting the similarities in Grbac's and Manning's 2000 season stats! Thanks Gregg for flying the flag!

Manning is the better QB, given his youth and what he has already accomplished. But there is no point in comparing his first 3 years to Grbac's, because of the teams they played on, the systems involved and Grbac's injuries.

If QB ratings included "boneheaded mistakes" and rushing ability, Gannon would finish well ahead of both Grbac and Manning. But the Gannon/Grbac debate has been flogged to death.

I just like Grbac for the QB he now is, after years of failures and booing from his fans and the total dearth of a running game. The point is, he has done as much as most QBs could do in this system. Most QBs would have thrown that 3rd down pass away against the Pats. That was an embarassing blunder on his part, but he was the one who had driven them into position by then.

Grbac's not perfect. Nobody is claiming that. Probably nobody is claiming he is Manning's equal either Clint. But he is one of the few bright-spots of the 2000 season. He has progressed from someone who locked in on TG every down, to someone who goes to his 3rd or 4th read with regularity. He deserves a lot of credit IMO.

Brock
12-12-2000, 04:46 PM
Manning looked pretty Grbac-like last night in the mental part of the game.

DaWolf
12-12-2000, 04:48 PM
Pacfan,
So Steve Bono was a good quarterback and a winner?

I disagree that Grbac couldn't be blamed for some of the losses during the streak, he had his moments, but I would disagree with anyone claiming he was the main reason for the streak...

Packfan
12-12-2000, 04:55 PM
Bono and Grbac are very similar in ability. Bono was throwing to Sean La Chappel, Lake Dawson, and a group of crap at tight end. Grbac's weapons are much better. PLUS, Grbac throws a lot more than Bono did, hence the big numbers.

DaWolf
12-12-2000, 05:00 PM
Bono also had the benefit of one of the NFL's best running offenses and a great defense. But I'm not talking about the numbers. If Grbac had a great running game and a defense he wouldn't have to throw it around as much either. The point I'm trying to make is it's usually not the quarterback that makes you the winner, sure he's a big component of it, but to be a big winner you usually have to have a good team surrounding you, something Grbac right now doesn't have the benefit of. He did in '97 and was 8-2 and headed for the playoffs before getting his collarbone snapped...

Raiderhader
12-12-2000, 05:07 PM
DaWolf, You said that EG doesn't have a good team around him right now. I would disagree with that. I think this team is good, not great, but good. We just have really poor coaching.

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

DaWolf
12-12-2000, 05:10 PM
Raiderhader,
My opinion is that we have many pieces for a good team here, but coaching is among the problems that is making this a bad team. When we are poor on defense, special teams and the ground game, you're just not going to win many ballgames, and thus in my opinion get classified as a poor team...

Raiderhader
12-12-2000, 05:23 PM
DaWolf, maybe a decent team would be more apropriate. I agree that ST is bad, but not on the running game, and not necesarily on defense. First, the running game. TRich can do the job if he is given the ball. And with all of those other backs, I am sure we can find someone to help out. On defense, it is hard to tell. We have quit a few rookies out there, so you have to wait and see. Now we definetly have some big problems on defense that are hurting us, and need to be addressed, but I think the jury is still out on our D.

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WILDCATS 29
corn balls 28

[This message has been edited by raiderhader (edited 12-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by raiderhader (edited 12-12-2000).]

Packfan
12-12-2000, 05:27 PM
DaWolf,

You said "its usually not the quarterback that makes you a winner..." Are you serious?
Without a dominant, play making QB, you WONT win in the post season. QBs have the ball in their hands every offensive play. They have the final say so in terms of what play is run (assuming the coaches let him audible). QBs are the highest paid players in the game because they have the most impact. Plain and simple. Sorry DaWolf, you couldnt be more wrong here. I know its hard to comprehend that for some chief fans because their QB play has been so shotty. Its no coincidence that the last time the Chiefs had any playoff success was when they had a play making QB: Joe Montana

Christ that was a long time ago!<BR>

DaWolf
12-12-2000, 05:42 PM
Packfan,
you conveniently left out the part where I say "he's a big component of it." But do you disagree with the statement that if the rest of the components are not there it is pretty hard for a QB to do? I mean if you take a winning QB and put him on a team with a bad defense, little running game support, and bad special teams, and poor coaching, what are the odds that they will win? I mean look at guys like Favre and Aikman. Definitely winners, but they sure ain't winning without the support.

OF COURSE a QB has a lot of impact on the game. But if a dude scores 30 and his D gives up 10, he's going to win vs a dude that scores 30 and his D gives up 50, for example. A QB depends on his team doing their job to win.

Teams have won without dominant playmaking QB's. Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostettler, Jim McMahon, etc. And I can name you a lot worse QB's that have won in the postseason but not necessarially the Super Bowl.

No one here is claiming that Elvis is or ever will be a GREAT QB. My argument is put a solid team and coaches around him and he can and will win. I mean, if Stoyanovich makes that FG last year, is Grbac considered a winner? And that team wasn't even that good, IMO...

[This message has been edited by DaWolf (edited 12-12-2000).]