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View Full Version : Okay Gunther supporters DEFEND YOUR BOY!


KCChiefsFan88
08-17-2006, 06:23 PM
Remind us again why the Chiefs were smart in keeping Gunther onboard as defensive coordinator.

I need a good laugh to get through this soon-to-be ass kicking

Saulbadguy
08-17-2006, 06:31 PM
It's obviously because we don't have enough crimin..er..UM players on our team.

eChief
08-17-2006, 06:46 PM
There is no excuse for the defense I'm seeing tonight. I'd fire him now and avoid the rush at the end of the season.

I think Joe Bling off the street might be able to come up with something better.

If Herman is responsible for what I see he may not last long either.

Hydrae
08-17-2006, 06:49 PM
We did not do anything about what we all knew was our biggest problem area, the middle of the defensive line.

I am depressed and it is only preseason. :sulk:

plbrdude
08-17-2006, 06:50 PM
so far watchin' this reminds me of an old moon martin song. soon to be the defenses' theme song.
"pushed around"

BigVE
08-17-2006, 06:51 PM
Just wait till our STARTERS come in....oh. Never mind.

ChiefClint
08-17-2006, 06:53 PM
Looks familiar boys.

4th and Long
08-17-2006, 06:53 PM
I don't know how to tell you this but the Cover Two is Herm's defense, not Guns. Blaming Gun for trying to impliment this defense in like blaming him for LJ's lack of yardage tonight.

NewChief
08-17-2006, 06:54 PM
I keep repeating the mantra, "It's only preseason" to myself, but it's just not providing the relief I'm looking for.

4th and Long
08-17-2006, 06:56 PM
The thing about the cover two is that it already has been made obsolete by a shift in offensive strategy and personnel. The defense was a response to the West Coast offense, and you won’t find a better defense for shutting down the swing passes and throws out to the flat that were a staple of West Coast offenses seven or eight years ago. But offenses have adapted to this in a variety of ways, including going more vertical and, especially, loading up the offensive line and moving to a power running game, which is an extremely effective counter to a defense built on undersized players that insists on stopping the run with seven defenders. At this point you need to have exceptional personnel to get the defense to really work (as Tampa does), and it’s an absolute disaster to run with incorrect personnel, as any Jets fan can attest. From the moment the Jets installed the defense, their run defense plummeted to the bottom of the league, where it has stayed, challenged only by Tony Dungy up in Indy running his own version of the Cover 2. Which is a long way of pointing out that if you want to run that defense in this day and age and continue to be called a defensive genius…you better have Peyton Manning strapping it up for you.

plbrdude
08-17-2006, 06:58 PM
doesn't matter whose d it is, at least they could give the impression that they're trying. so far it looks like they're going through the motions for a ny offensive scrimmage.

KCChiefsFan88
08-17-2006, 07:02 PM
I don't know how to tell you this but the Cover Two is Herm's defense, not Guns. Blaming Gun for trying to impliment this defense in like blaming him for LJ's lack of yardage tonight.


Hey dumbshit if you are going to continue ass kiss Gunther you better bring something stronger than that weak shit.

So let's see the last 2 years Gunther was a victim of Vermeil's lack of emphasis on defense, lack of talent and not having his choice of assistant coaches. Now Gunther is a victim of Herm's Cover 2.

So apparently the delicate flower that is Gunther can't be blamed for how horrible this defense continues to look, regardless of who the assistant coaches are, who the head coach is and what the current level of talent on defense is.

MichaelH
08-17-2006, 07:08 PM
I have been a supporter of Gun for a long time. But, if the defense plays like this during the regular season, I will drive to KC and pull his shirtsleaves off and kick him to the curb just like Robinson. :cuss:

The Bad Guy
08-17-2006, 07:25 PM
You truly are a dickbag.

I must have missed the memo where preseason counted.

I could give a flying **** what happens in the preseason. I'm no Gunther supporter, but I don't give a shit.

You must live a real, real miserable life.

ROYC75
08-17-2006, 07:31 PM
I think we should go 0-4 preseason, at least whem we win in the reg. season it will look like an improvement..................

KCChiefsFan88
08-17-2006, 07:35 PM
You truly are a dickbag.

I must have missed the memo where preseason counted.

I could give a flying **** what happens in the preseason. I'm no Gunther supporter, but I don't give a shit.

You must live a real, real miserable life.


Enlighten us... what exactly is going to change once the regular season begins? This was STARTING defense versus the opposing team's STARTING offense for the few series of the game, and the Chiefs starting defense was humiliated... just like they were last week versus Houston's starting offense.

You like the other Gunther ass kissers can continue to live in denial that your boy is a complete FRAUD and continue to cling to false hope that eventually this defense is going to come around, but through two preseason games the starting defense has shown the same problems that has plagued the defense for the past few seasons.

alanm
08-17-2006, 07:39 PM
I think we should go 0-4 preseason, at least whem we win in the reg. season it will look like an improvement..................
You realize of course Roy we haven't won a preseason game since 04. :)

JBucc
08-17-2006, 07:40 PM
The thing about the cover two is that it already has been made obsolete by a shift in offensive strategy and personnel. The defense was a response to the West Coast offense, and you won’t find a better defense for shutting down the swing passes and throws out to the flat that were a staple of West Coast offenses seven or eight years ago. But offenses have adapted to this in a variety of ways, including going more vertical and, especially, loading up the offensive line and moving to a power running game, which is an extremely effective counter to a defense built on undersized players that insists on stopping the run with seven defenders. At this point you need to have exceptional personnel to get the defense to really work (as Tampa does), and it’s an absolute disaster to run with incorrect personnel, as any Jets fan can attest. From the moment the Jets installed the defense, their run defense plummeted to the bottom of the league, where it has stayed, challenged only by Tony Dungy up in Indy running his own version of the Cover 2. Which is a long way of pointing out that if you want to run that defense in this day and age and continue to be called a defensive genius…you better have Peyton Manning strapping it up for you.That's encouraging

tk13
08-17-2006, 07:41 PM
It really depends.

I'm not very confident in our line in getting a pass rush straight up yet. But... if we're planning on bringing some blitzes, we're not going to see that until week 1 and preseason really isn't going to tell us anything about that.

ChiefaRoo
08-17-2006, 07:42 PM
Enlighten us... what exactly is going to change once the regular season begins? This was STARTING defense versus the opposing team's STARTING offense for the few series of the game, and the Chiefs starting defense was humiliated... just like they were last week versus Houston's starting offense.

You like the other Gunther ass kissers can continue to live in denial that your boy is a complete FRAUD and continue to cling to false hope that eventually this defense is going to come around, but through two preseason games the starting defense has shown the same problems that has plagued the defense for the past few seasons.


Well you see it's complicated. Over here you've got what is called execution and over here you've got gameplanning and finally over here you've got talent. When you combine them all together you've got umm a defense and the players are playing all defensivelike and then over here you've got the offensive and they're trying to move the ball forward. I'd have to say that about sums it up and there you go.

Saulbadguy
08-17-2006, 07:47 PM
You are most likely a failure in real life.

noa
08-17-2006, 07:48 PM
Once we get Tamba Hali in there, everything will be fine. Our defense will be number one.

Basileus777
08-17-2006, 07:50 PM
That's encouraging

The Cover 2 is so obsolete that only 4 new teams are adopting it this year. :rolleyes:

Count Zarth
08-17-2006, 07:54 PM
It's just this soft zone shit. We aren't going to play it every down in the regular season.

Valiant
08-17-2006, 07:55 PM
Outside a few blitzes I have seen no schemes by either side of the team on plays... They are straight playing vanilla cover 2... We willl not have a clue how good/bad this team is until the regular season with the amount of info they are giving other teams...

eChief
08-17-2006, 08:07 PM
I think we should go 0-4 preseason, at least whem we win in the reg. season it will look like an improvement..................

You mean IF we win in the regular season! I don't even see anything with the offense that makes me feel good. Not a single player on the team seems to be sharp.

eChief
08-17-2006, 08:10 PM
You are most likely a failure in real life.

Sounds like the voice of experience. :hmmm:

chiefs4me
08-17-2006, 08:13 PM
Well you see it's complicated. Over here you've got what is called execution and over here you've got gameplanning and finally over here you've got talent. When you combine them all together you've got umm a defense and the players are playing all defensivelike and then over here you've got the offensive and they're trying to move the ball forward. I'd have to say that about sums it up and there you go.







hmmm, I thought that is what we were supposed to be doing tonight...why didn't someone tell me it was just a practice...:shake:

Sam Hall
08-17-2006, 08:13 PM
I certaintly hope the defensive scheme is different in the regular season. My problem is the ineffective blitzing. We have seen this for years. The defense doesn't reach the quarterback on time, and then the quarterback throws a quick pass to an open receiver for a first down. Yes, it is the interior line's fault. It drives me crazy.

noa
08-17-2006, 08:15 PM
You mean IF we win in the regular season! I don't even see anything with the offense that makes me feel good. Not a single player on the team seems to be sharp.

Its a preseason game...it amazes me how distraught people get over preseason games. Our first string offense was on the field for two series (minus Brian Waters mind you) and we are ready to proclaim that the offense won't accomplish anything this season. Just relax, wait till we blow out the Bengals in the opener, and then hop back on the bandwagon.

ChiefsCountry
08-17-2006, 08:20 PM
Wow the biggest dumbass on ChiefsPlanet strikes again. First its blaming Carl Peterson for not having a studm LT waiting bc Roaf retired all of the suddent. Then in a meaingless preseason game is complaing about schemes. What a true dumbass.

Ozarks-Chiefs-Fan
08-17-2006, 08:20 PM
[QUOTE=KCChiefsfan88]Remind us again why the Chiefs were smart in keeping Gunther onboard as defensive coordinator.

I need a good laugh to get through this soon-to-be ass kicking[/QUOTE

you make a great arguement for keeping abortion legal.

The Bad Guy
08-17-2006, 08:21 PM
Enlighten us... what exactly is going to change once the regular season begins? This was STARTING defense versus the opposing team's STARTING offense for the few series of the game, and the Chiefs starting defense was humiliated... just like they were last week versus Houston's starting offense.

You like the other Gunther ass kissers can continue to live in denial that your boy is a complete FRAUD and continue to cling to false hope that eventually this defense is going to come around, but through two preseason games the starting defense has shown the same problems that has plagued the defense for the past few seasons.

I guess you missed the point where I said I wasn't a Gun supporter.

I know you're retarded, but I at least thought you could read.

Guess not.

The Bad Guy
08-17-2006, 08:28 PM
You know what, 88, I think you might be on to something.

Gunther should have given the Bengals and the rest of our regular season opponents all the footage of the defense he plans on running this season just so he could win the preseason game.

It must really suck getting your period every day of your life.

eChief
08-17-2006, 08:31 PM
Its a preseason game...it amazes me how distraught people get over preseason games. Our first string offense was on the field for two series (minus Brian Waters mind you) and we are ready to proclaim that the offense won't accomplish anything this season. Just relax, wait till we blow out the Bengals in the opener, and then hop back on the bandwagon.

Who is distraught? I'm pissed off that they don't look any better than they do. I have not seen a single bright spot on either side of the ball. Someone somewhere needs to show some kind of ability to realize that they are on the playing field.

I saw errant passes from Trent, Huard and Printers. I saw many missed tackles on defense. I saw an interception dropped after the ball hit the guy in the hands.

Hell, it's the 4th quarter and the Chiefs don't even have 100 yards of offense! The Giants have over 250.

Telling me it's preseason does not remove the fact that the Chiefs are sucking like an 8 man football team that is playing a 6A 11 man team. The only thing that has kept the score from being so lopsided that they call the game is the fact that the first and second string from New York have been on the bench since the second quarter!

Pre-Season? Yes. Meaningless game? No! You have to have something that makes you want to come back. It's like in golf, one or two times in 18 holes even the worst golfers hit a shot that is perfect and makes them want to come back. If I see one before the end of the game I'll let you know.

dirk digler
08-17-2006, 08:36 PM
Who is distraught? I'm pissed off that they don't look any better than they do. I have not seen a single bright spot on either side of the ball. Someone somewhere needs to show some kind of ability to realize that they are on the playing field.



Yep that is exactly how I feel.

noa
08-17-2006, 08:37 PM
Who is distraught? I'm pissed off that they don't look any better than they do. I have not seen a single bright spot on either side of the ball. Someone somewhere needs to show some kind of ability to realize that they are on the playing field.

I saw errant passes from Trent, Huard and Printers. I saw many missed tackles on defense. I saw an interception dropped after the ball hit the guy in the hands.

Hell, it's the 4th quarter and the Chiefs don't even have 100 yards of offense! The Giants have over 250.

Telling me it's preseason does not remove the fact that the Chiefs are sucking like an 8 man football team that is playing a 6A 11 man team. The only thing that has kept the score from being so lopsided that they call the game is the fact that the first and second string from New York have been on the bench since the second quarter!

Pre-Season? Yes. Meaningless game? No! You have to have something that makes you want to come back. It's like in golf, one or two times in 18 holes even the worst golfers hit a shot that is perfect and makes them want to come back. If I see one before the end of the game I'll let you know.

This game is absolutely meaningless. If you want to predict doom, go ahead, but I guarantee the Chiefs play much better than this in the regular season. Good lord. Our defense was awful last year and we still managed to win 10 games. Everything we've been reading indicates that we will be better on defense this year (despite what you've seen in these two preseason games) and even if our offense slips a bit, it won't be enough to make us a bad team. We will be fine. The Chiefs sucked tonight, but it doesn't mean anything. Even if we suck worse for the next two games, all that matters is how we play on opening day against Cincy, and I am sure we will show up to play for that game. Most of what you have seen has been backups and people who might be cut.

dirk digler
08-17-2006, 08:41 PM
This game is absolutely meaningless. If you want to predict doom, go ahead, but I guarantee the Chiefs play much better than this in the regular season. Good lord. Our defense was awful last year and we still managed to win 10 games. Everything we've been reading indicates that we will be better on defense this year (despite what you've seen in these two preseason games) and even if our offense slips a bit, it won't be enough to make us a bad team. We will be fine. The Chiefs sucked tonight, but it doesn't mean anything. Even if we suck worse for the next two games, all that matters is how we play on opening day against Cincy, and I am sure we will show up to play for that game. Most of what you have seen has been backups and people who might be cut.

I would feel better if I actually saw something that was positive. Our #1's have been dominated by the opposing teams #1's.

noa
08-17-2006, 08:44 PM
I would feel better if I actually saw something that was positive. Our #1's have been dominated by the opposing teams #1's.


I really don't think our #1 offense was "dominated" by their #1 defense. Just because we didn't score doesn't mean we were dominated. We moved the ball fine, and got stuck thanks to a couple penalties. Its really difficult to judge a game based off of two possessions by our #1 offense.

eChief
08-17-2006, 08:52 PM
I would feel better if I actually saw something that was positive. Our #1's have been dominated by the opposing teams #1's.

Our #1's were dominated by the opposing teams #2's and #3's.

For the guy that says I'm predicting gloom and doom is a total jackass. I said I'm pissed off that I have not seen anything positive. When you watch a pre-season game you see the starters for one quarter, they showed us exactly zero.

The offense is supposed to be intact. I saw receivers that couldn't get open. Virtually every pass that Trent threw was in deep traffic. Watch your tape of the first quarter, the offense, if it is used like it was last year might be as good, but Herman has a different outlook on the game. If we do not go out with the offense in high gear and keep pouring it on we might not win 5 games. I would never try to sell myself as an expert, but I am a knowledgable fan and I saw very little to give me the feeling that this team has what it takes to make the playoffs.

GoHuge
08-17-2006, 08:54 PM
Enlighten us... what exactly is going to change once the regular season begins? This was STARTING defense versus the opposing team's STARTING offense for the few series of the game, and the Chiefs starting defense was humiliated... just like they were last week versus Houston's starting offense.

You like the other Gunther ass kissers can continue to live in denial that your boy is a complete FRAUD and continue to cling to false hope that eventually this defense is going to come around, but through two preseason games the starting defense has shown the same problems that has plagued the defense for the past few seasons.So is your next post going to be "fire Mike Solari" because he "ruined" the #1 offense in the NFL? I would be all over it considering this is the second preseason game. Here's your ammo, we only had 100 yards and six first downs the whole game!! Solari ruined the whole damn thing!! That would seem like a bigger pooch screw than the Gun and the D. Pack it in, the whole season is over! Statistically the D is performing better than they where last year. 17 points and 315 yards. That's improvement!! This is preseason and technically the defense is better and has apparently "come around." Gun improved the defense and Solari turned the #1 offense into the worst that can only put up a 100 yards a game. Larry Johnson is only going to run for 128 yards all year!! That was starters against starters, seconds, thirds, etc. I'm just trying to put into perspective and show you how igorant and over the top everything you've said is. Are you getting it? It's preseason dude. Your whole post was just stupid.

milkman
08-17-2006, 08:54 PM
If Whinefest88 is married, I REALLY feel sorry for his wife.

eChief
08-17-2006, 08:54 PM
I really don't think our #1 offense was "dominated" by their #1 defense. Just because we didn't score doesn't mean we were dominated. We moved the ball fine, and got stuck thanks to a couple penalties. Its really difficult to judge a game based off of two possessions by our #1 offense.

How many yards did the Chiefs have in the first quarter? How many points? How many yards did the Giants have? How many points? They are in the same point in time as we are. Their first string, o and d, looked season ready, we looked like shit at best.

Fish
08-17-2006, 09:18 PM
How many yards did the Chiefs have in the first quarter? How many points? How many yards did the Giants have? How many points? They are in the same point in time as we are. Their first string, o and d, looked season ready, we looked like shit at best.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9246/demotivatorsdespairdq1.jpg

Ohh we lost another preseason game..... all is lost...

whine some more......

noa
08-17-2006, 09:42 PM
How many yards did the Chiefs have in the first quarter? How many points? How many yards did the Giants have? How many points? They are in the same point in time as we are. Their first string, o and d, looked season ready, we looked like shit at best.


Well, then, its a good thing this wasn't the regular season then isn't it?

Rausch
08-17-2006, 09:47 PM
Enlighten us... what exactly is going to change once the regular season begins?

Nothing.

Gunther will still be our defensive coordinator and there isn't $#it you can do about it but bitch.

And the more you pointlessly bitch the smaller the number of posters who bother to ready your knee-jerk tripe...

Davechief
08-17-2006, 10:05 PM
The only thing that I would suggest is just get rid of Ryan Sims now. He was getting knocked on his ass by guys that will be bagging groceries in 3 weeks. Other than Trezelle Jenkins he is probably our worst draft pick ever.

eChief
08-18-2006, 05:34 AM
Ohh we lost another preseason game..... all is lost...

whine some more......

You either have to be blind or stupid to think that this was a good showing even for pre-season.

If I were you I'd find another board to post on. I hear WPI needs members.

eChief
08-18-2006, 05:38 AM
Well, then, its a good thing this wasn't the regular season then isn't it?

From the evidence we all have seen from the first two abortions of pre-season it is laughable to think that we can expect much more from the regular season.

Pre-season is when the starters get in the game and show their face, but they are expected to perform like they will in the regular season. Anything after the first quarter is disregarded. If you want to see the greatness of the backups you have seen that we have no backups.

This whole team, first string through practice field fodder all suck.

I will expect you to recant your "It's only pre-season when the Chiefs are 0-8 at the halfway mark of the season.

htismaqe
08-18-2006, 06:14 AM
Enlighten us... what exactly is going to change once the regular season begins? This was STARTING defense versus the opposing team's STARTING offense for the few series of the game, and the Chiefs starting defense was humiliated... just like they were last week versus Houston's starting offense.

You like the other Gunther ass kissers can continue to live in denial that your boy is a complete FRAUD and continue to cling to false hope that eventually this defense is going to come around, but through two preseason games the starting defense has shown the same problems that has plagued the defense for the past few seasons.

You know what, I came to this thread to laugh at you.

If all you're going to do is attack other board members for posting their opinions, I'll just ban your stupid ass.

And if it makes you feel better, Carl Peterson told me to do it.

htismaqe
08-18-2006, 06:14 AM
From the evidence we all have seen from the first two abortions of pre-season it is laughable to think that we can expect much more from the regular season.

Pre-season is when the starters get in the game and show their face, but they are expected to perform like they will in the regular season. Anything after the first quarter is disregarded. If you want to see the greatness of the backups you have seen that we have no backups.

This whole team, first string through practice field fodder all suck.

I will expect you to recant your "It's only pre-season when the Chiefs are 0-8 at the halfway mark of the season.

Sounds JUST LIKE LAST YEAR.

John_Wayne
08-18-2006, 06:53 AM
Remind us again why the Chiefs were smart in keeping Gunther onboard as defensive coordinator.

I need a good laugh to get through this soon-to-be ass kicking

Don't look at me. I'm not a big fan of Gunther.

MOhillbilly
08-18-2006, 07:00 AM
i said lastyear after a visit to the east coast and seeing upclose how a top 10 D is coached and taught that Coach Cunningham wasnt teaching his players in a way they could understand.

It looks even worse this year.

Bootlegged
08-18-2006, 07:03 AM
http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.senoeni.net/bootleg/pics/cover.jpg&sig=__7prND17My7XdJlhgpShmInayRb8=

tiptap
08-18-2006, 07:10 AM
Pre season games are not meaningless. There is statistical correlation between overwheling play in the preseason and regular season playing the same team. That is the correlation of play between dominating a team in the pre season (when the starters are in the first quarter) and playing and beating that team in the regular season is on level with the correlation of dominating and winning both games with interdivisional rival.

So there is reason to be concerned. But as the optimist I think this is something that is circulating within NFL training camps. That the preseason play IS the determinator for play in season for some coaches. The result is that more diverse play calling, blitzing is taking place. And the energy level is pumped up.

This is what I saw. I saw a team pumped up to play with all the nervous energy of a real game vs the Chiefs that were meshing things still and not focused upon their opponent. The first two games were away games. Let's see how it goes next week.

We now have Shields out so we have 4 out of 5 new lineman. Wiegman has always played beyond his physical skills and therefore is not going to be able to take pressure off the others. I suspect there will be some sputtering at the beginning of the season.

Lzen
08-18-2006, 07:55 AM
Look, it's a new scheme(again) and the whole team didn't even look prepared for the Giants. If they play like this in the regular season, believe me, I'll be the first in line calling for Gun's resignation. But as of now, it is just preseason.

MOhillbilly
08-18-2006, 08:01 AM
the cover 2 isnt rocket surgery.

Coaches are there to teach players to be in position to make plays.
Players are there to do there job by staying in position and making those plays.

I havent seen any of that in two games. Be it from bad coaching of poor headed personel or both.

regardless it still falls on the coaching staff.(if herm is the tampa 2 god, they shouldnt look this bad)

burt
08-18-2006, 08:34 AM
You either have to be blind or stupid to think that this was a good showing even for pre-season.

It was a shitty showing. But I will still reserve ALL judgement until the season opener.


If I were you I'd find another board to post on. I hear <a href="http://chiefsplanet.com">WPI</a> needs members.

Great advise from you...and your 14 post....I sure he appreciated it.... :rolleyes:

King_Chief_Fan
08-18-2006, 08:37 AM
Look, it's a new scheme(again) and the whole team didn't even look prepared for the Giants. If they play like this in the regular season, believe me, I'll be the first in line calling for Gun's resignation. But as of now, it is just preseason.

The god of defense (Herm) has probably hamstrung Gun to do nothing but follow Herm's orders. I too shall wait

MOhillbilly
08-18-2006, 08:41 AM
The god of defense (Herm) has probably hamstrung Gun to do nothing but follow Herm's orders. I too shall wait

**** that.

burt
08-18-2006, 08:42 AM
Pre season games are not meaningless. There is statistical correlation between overwheling play in the preseason and regular season playing the same team. That is the correlation of play between dominating a team in the pre season (when the starters are in the first quarter) and playing and beating that team in the regular season is on level with the correlation of dominating and winning both games with interdivisional rival.

So there is reason to be concerned. But as the optimist I think this is something that is circulating within NFL training camps. That the preseason play IS the determinator for play in season for some coaches. The result is that more diverse play calling, blitzing is taking place. And the energy level is pumped up.

This is what I saw. I saw a team pumped up to play with all the nervous energy of a real game vs the Chiefs that were meshing things still and not focused upon their opponent. The first two games were away games. Let's see how it goes next week.

We now have Shields out so we have 4 out of 5 new lineman. Wiegman has always played beyond his physical skills and therefore is not going to be able to take pressure off the others. I suspect there will be some sputtering at the beginning of the season.

I agree...to a point. If we were returning with 90% of our personel from last year, I would expect to steamroll, when our starters are in. With as many changes that the Chiefs have made, we are evaluating strengthe...IN A GAME.

We are seeing the downfalls and weakness of our new personel...and will be tweaking. I believe you will see a different level of play in the last pre-season game. You will see a significantly different level of play comr regular season. But you may not see much more in the next preseason game...

KCChiefsFan88
08-18-2006, 08:53 AM
the cover 2 isnt rocket surgery.

Coaches are there to teach players to be in position to make plays.
Players are there to do there job by staying in position and making those plays.

I havent seen any of that in two games. Be it from bad coaching of poor headed personel or both.

regardless it still falls on the coaching staff.(if herm is the tampa 2 god, they shouldnt look this bad)

I still don't get what people are expecting when they say the Chiefs are just holding back on defense until the regular season. Its not like on offense where you can go very vanilla in your playcalling, use of different formations, all the shifting and motion, etc. More blitzing? The Chiefs blitzed several times last night and failed to get pressure on Manning.

Mecca
08-18-2006, 08:55 AM
We don't have the personel to play cover 2.........Getting no pressure, especially no pressure up the middle is a sure fire way to get owned in that defense. I'm sure we'll see it numerous times this year.

4th and Long
08-18-2006, 09:19 AM
I still don't get what people are expecting when they say the Chiefs are just holding back on defense until the regular season. Its not like on offense where you can go very vanilla in your playcalling, use of different formations, all the shifting and motion, etc.
Actually, it is just exactly like that and if you knew the first thing about football, which you obviously don't, you would have thought better before typing that, which you didn't.

rad
08-18-2006, 09:58 AM
You either have to be blind or stupid to think that this was a good showing even for pre-season.

If I were you I'd find another board to post on. I hear <a href="http://chiefsplanet.com">WPI</a> needs members.


Try reading the guy's post.

No one said anything about a good showing.

Also, you may want to get your post count a little higher before suggesting other posters "find another board to post on".

Take a hike, touch-hole.

Fish
08-18-2006, 10:06 AM
You either have to be blind or stupid to think that this was a good showing even for pre-season.

If I were you I'd find another board to post on. I hear <a href="http://chiefsplanet.com">WPI</a> needs members.

Where the f*ck did I ever say it was a good showing dipshit? If you'll read past your own egotistical posts you'll see that I've been pointing out several positions that aren't looking good..... I admitted from the end of the first PS game that it wasn't a good showing....

But what you're still failing to understand is this is PRESEASON.... we lost every preseason game last year and won 10. The f*cking sky is not falling.....

And you have 14 idiotic posts..... you better get a grip before trying to tell me to find a different board.....

FringeNC
08-18-2006, 10:07 AM
Playing "vanilla" is no excuse. We played a base 4-3. Nothing bizarre that we'd never see in the regular season. It's the D we will see the most in regular season. It's the D we'll see on 1st and 10. One might make the argument that it's not the best D to play against 3 WR sets. Okay, fine. But that extra LB (as opposed to playing nickel) in there against a WR should mean we have no problem stopping the run. The Giants ran all over us.

We have many plausible excuses for the offense, and past history to fall back on. The D is another matter. I was livid when we retained Gunther because I thought he was the problem on D, and am still convinced he is.

The Bad Guy
08-18-2006, 10:09 AM
I still don't get what people are expecting when they say the Chiefs are just holding back on defense until the regular season. Its not like on offense where you can go very vanilla in your playcalling, use of different formations, all the shifting and motion, etc. More blitzing? The Chiefs blitzed several times last night and failed to get pressure on Manning.

Stunts, coverages, different blitzes, zone schemes.

I wouldn't expect a brain like you to figure that out though.

dirk digler
08-18-2006, 10:18 AM
Petro is really ripping Gunther. This is the make or break year for Gun.

He is really going off on the DE's just crashing the line without even looking where the ball is.

Fish
08-18-2006, 10:20 AM
Petro is really ripping Gunther. This is the make or break year for Gun.

He is really going off on the DE's just crashing the line without even looking where the ball is.

I think that one's warranted..... Hicks looked horrible again....

dirk digler
08-18-2006, 10:23 AM
Petro is also ripping Gun for why when the Giants were on the 10 yard line that Kawika would drop half way into the endzone leaving the whole middle open. IT is not like they are going to throw the bomb.

ROFL

Fish
08-18-2006, 10:29 AM
Petro is also ripping Gun for why when the Giants were on the 10 yard line that Kawika would drop half way into the endzone leaving the whole middle open. IT is not like they are going to throw the bomb.

ROFL

Everyone was playing off the line too far.... Even Law and Surtain were giving cushion underneath.

dirk digler
08-18-2006, 10:31 AM
Everyone was playing off the line too far.... Even Law and Surtain were giving cushion underneath.

Typical Gunther IMO. He did this all last year as well. Hopefully they won't during the regular season but so far I am not encouraged.

FringeNC
08-18-2006, 10:31 AM
Petro is also ripping Gun for why when the Giants were on the 10 yard line that Kawika would drop half way into the endzone leaving the whole middle open. IT is not like they are going to throw the bomb.

ROFL

:shake:

If Gunther only was allowed to choose his own assistant coaches....It's the DV cronie secondary coach that is the problem.

Coogs
08-18-2006, 10:33 AM
the cover 2 isnt rocket surgery.

Coaches are there to teach players to be in position to make plays.
Players are there to do there job by staying in position and making those plays.

I havent seen any of that in two games. Be it from bad coaching of poor headed personel or both.

regardless it still falls on the coaching staff.(if herm is the tampa 2 god, they shouldnt look this bad)

There has been some recent discussion that thsi defense really isn't a true cover 2, but some sort of "hybrid" type defense that is a mix of the cover 2 that Herm wants to run, and the slant defense that Gun prefers.

dirk digler
08-18-2006, 10:35 AM
:shake:

If Gunther only was allowed to choose his own assistant coaches....It's the DV cronie secondary coach that is the problem.


Yep.

Petro just said mis-direction plays and reverses are standard NFL plays and that don't require game plans to stop yet this team can never stop them.

I totally agree.

He just said the Chiefs D has been vanilla for 7-8 years. ROFL

FringeNC
08-18-2006, 10:40 AM
Yep.

Petro just said mis-direction plays and reverses are standard NFL plays and that don't require game plans to stop yet this team can never stop them.



That is the point I have been trying to make, but he made it better. Playing your base D during preseason isn't an excuse for what we have seen on the field.

dirk digler
08-18-2006, 10:48 AM
That is the point I have been trying to make, but he made it better. Playing your base D during preseason isn't an excuse for what we have seen on the field.

I agree. I have 0 faith in Gun turning this D around anymore. I know it is still preseason but the shit I have seen on D this preseason is no different than what I saw in the regular season the last 2 years.

ChiefsCountry
08-18-2006, 10:58 AM
Everybody bitches about the reverse but that is all Eric Hicks. As a DE you have two rules bascially - slow play everything and keep outside contain. He didnt do either.

noa
08-18-2006, 11:08 AM
Pre season games are not meaningless. There is statistical correlation between overwheling play in the preseason and regular season playing the same team. That is the correlation of play between dominating a team in the pre season (when the starters are in the first quarter) and playing and beating that team in the regular season is on level with the correlation of dominating and winning both games with interdivisional rival.

So there is reason to be concerned. But as the optimist I think this is something that is circulating within NFL training camps. That the preseason play IS the determinator for play in season for some coaches. The result is that more diverse play calling, blitzing is taking place. And the energy level is pumped up.

This is what I saw. I saw a team pumped up to play with all the nervous energy of a real game vs the Chiefs that were meshing things still and not focused upon their opponent. The first two games were away games. Let's see how it goes next week.

We now have Shields out so we have 4 out of 5 new lineman. Wiegman has always played beyond his physical skills and therefore is not going to be able to take pressure off the others. I suspect there will be some sputtering at the beginning of the season.

Correlation is not causation, as evidenced by our winless preseason last year and winning 10 games in the regular season.
Other than that, I agree with you, I think the Giants were excited to beat the Chiefs, but we looked like we couldn't have cared less about the other team.

Calcountry
08-18-2006, 11:26 AM
Outside a few blitzes I have seen no schemes by either side of the team on plays... They are straight playing vanilla cover 2... We willl not have a clue how good/bad this team is until the regular season with the amount of info they are giving other teams...Preseason is like the opening blind draw in poker.

The flop is on week one.

Geesh, haven't any of you foos played poker?

I am not showing my cards before the flop unless I am all in.

chief2000
08-18-2006, 11:34 AM
WE NEED MORE SPEED AT DTACKLE.

Put WILKERSON in there.

FringeNC
08-18-2006, 11:38 AM
Preseason is like the opening blind draw in poker.

The flop is on week one.

Geesh, haven't any of you foos played poker?

I am not showing my cards before the flop unless I am all in.

What's there to show? The NFL is a copycat league. Everyone knows everyone else's playbook. Sure, you have to try to trick your opponent, but that's all gameday tactics, not bringing out some super secret offensive or defensive scheme week 1.

Chief Faithful
08-18-2006, 12:21 PM
The loss and poor showing as a team does not bother me because it is preseason and we have seen it many times before. The Chiefs are the most vanilla team when it comes to Preseason. No stunts, no shits, no schemes, DLine stay in their lanes, even the routes by WR's are basic vanilla.

I did see some things I liked and some things I did not like, but I'm not going to evaluate a scheme or coach on a preseason game.

Pros
Webb is an athelete. Lots of potential although raw.
I like Pollard's attitude and it will infect others.
Wilkerson did well at DE as did Clint Mitchell. Both look better than Hicks.
Colquit looks great.
Sampson and Turley look good and Svitek is a stud.
Green, Kennison, Johnson, and Gonzo look ready for the season to start.
Printers, although raw, is a major talent. I like him more than Huard.
Reed is an upgrade.
Cruz is looking capable and Niklos had a good game.
Griffin made me take notice.

Cons
Edwards, Hicks, McIntrye, Bober and Hodge suck bad.
Huard and Smoker are not good enough.
Burton did not impress, but worse is the fact he was the second best DT.
Why does Dalton look so bad? Even Sims looks better.
The whole team looked asleep.

KCChiefsFan88
08-18-2006, 01:06 PM
Actually, it is just exactly like that and if you knew the first thing about football, which you obviously don't, you would have thought better before typing that, which you didn't.

Are the basic art of tackling, putting pressure on the QB and not biting on every single playfake bootleg also elements that wouldn't be included in a vanilla defense?

We've heard the same exact things the last 2 preseasons when the Chiefs defense struggled. "They are still learning Gunther's schemes"; "Gunther is holding back his multiple blitz packages until the regular season"; "Gunther isn't showing HALF of what this defense is going to show in the regular season", etc etc etc.

Why should we expect things to be different this upcoming season?

KCChiefsFan88
08-18-2006, 01:12 PM
What's there to show? The NFL is a copycat league. Everyone knows everyone else's playbook. Sure, you have to try to trick your opponent, but that's all gameday tactics, not bringing out some super secret offensive or defensive scheme week 1.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Schemes, as we've seen are completely overrated on defense. It all comes down to talent, and do you have guys who can be considered difference-makers on defense. That is why I don't understand people who want to believe that Gunther is holding back some magic scheme or strategy that is magically going to transform the Chiefs defense into a playoff-caliber D once the season begins.

No scheme can't compensate for a lack of talent/difference-makers and that is exactly what the problem is in the middle of the defensive line. The Chiefs don't have an interior D-lineman that commands double teams and that consistently dominates the line of scrimmage. No scheme (especially in a Cover 2 style defense) is going to compensate for this void.

htismaqe
08-18-2006, 01:20 PM
This is what I'm trying to get at. Schemes, as we've seen are completely overrated on defense. It all comes down to talent, and do you have guys who can be considered difference-makers on defense. That is why I don't understand people who want to believe that Gunther is holding back some magic scheme or strategy that is magically going to transform the Chiefs defense into a playoff-caliber D once the season begins.

No scheme can't compensate for a lack of talent/difference-makers and that is exactly what the problem is in the middle of the defensive line. The Chiefs don't have an interior D-lineman that commands double teams and that consistently dominates the line of scrimmage. No scheme (especially in a Cover 2 style defense) is going to compensate for this void.

Schemes are overrated? It comes down to talent?

You might wanna talk to MOHillbilly about that, and find out why the Skins jettisoned Lavar Arrington.

tk13
08-18-2006, 01:21 PM
I don't know about that. We have talent. We have two all-world CB's. We could put them in press coverage and send a lot of blitzes, much like the Broncos do. Actually, I think that's the best model for our current defense... we have the talent to do that now. Maybe we aren't going to do that, but we wouldn't show that in preseason.

4th and Long
08-18-2006, 01:25 PM
What's there to show? The NFL is a copycat league. Everyone knows everyone else's playbook. Sure, you have to try to trick your opponent, but that's all gameday tactics, not bringing out some super secret offensive or defensive scheme week 1.
This is what I'm trying to get at.
Your point was that everyone knows everyone else's playbook? You were awfully long winded, not to mention you failed to make your alleged point, if indeed that was what you were trying to get at.

Underestand, the Cover 2 Defense is a coverage scheme that is not the newest invention :shake: (The 70’s Steelers used a Cover 2 defense), and teams are suddenly returning to using the Cover 2 more often.

The Cover 2 Defense had a lot to do with the introduction of Bill Walsh’s West Coast offense that became so popular in the 80’s. The entire theory of the West Coast offense is the quick drop and hit the nearest open receiver. It’s a dink and dunk system designed to counter blitzes, designed to move the chains, and burn time on high-accuracy, short-yardage passes. It also requires an accurate quarterback, but you don’t need a quarterback with a great arm.

The Cover 2 stops a West coast offense extremely well, for a variety of reasons. In a true Cover 2, defensive linemen provide all the pressure. Blitzing should be unnecessary. Defensive lineman line up in gaps to slow the run, and make it more difficult for holes to open up. If the front 4 play their gaps correctly, they’ll clog up the running lanes and force the running backs to run outside, where the corners, linebackers, and safeties (the overall speed of the team) can all help. The rolled up corners usually protect the safeties by funnelling receivers to inside releases.

The same Cover 2 look can be used to play a man under coverage where each of the five eligible receivers gets tight press coverage underneath with the safeties on the hash playing over the top. Typically the under defenders play a technique with a hard press to the inside shoulder and trail the inside hip to stay b/w the receiver and QB. This forces a QB to try to drop it over the defender and gives the safety a chance to break on the ball for a big hit.

The cover 2 look with safeties on the hash can easily morph into a lot of other zone and combo looks. They can get to a Cover 3 by rolling in addition to having the MLB drop. A real popular look right now is to move one of the safeties at the snap into a robber over the middle.

Faster is always better because his system is based entirely around the pass. The speed works well for passing and outside runs where the linebackers and corners can quickly converge on the runner. However, the Tampa 2 suffers from power runners. Big, bruising running backs can normally run over the smaller linebackers and a lot of times won’t be stopped until they reach the safety. A good running game cheats the safety out of the coverage he wants to run and makes him hesitate since he has to watch the run. When play-action passes can get involved and the safety has to respect the team’s running game, a lot of times it can spell a long completion or a touchdown. The Panthers are good at demonstrating this and exposing it, since they possess a power-running, play-action pass offense. A vast majority of their passes come off the play-action, and when the safety has to watch out for the run, it really opens up holes in the coverage.

Ozarks-Chiefs-Fan
08-18-2006, 01:27 PM
This is what I'm trying to get at. Schemes, as we've seen are completely overrated on defense. It all comes down to talent, and do you have guys who can be considered difference-makers on defense. That is why I don't understand people who want to believe that Gunther is holding back some magic scheme or strategy that is magically going to transform the Chiefs defense into a playoff-caliber D once the season begins.

No scheme can't compensate for a lack of talent/difference-makers and that is exactly what the problem is in the middle of the defensive line. The Chiefs don't have an interior D-lineman that commands double teams and that consistently dominates the line of scrimmage. No scheme (especially in a Cover 2 style defense) is going to compensate for this void.

So what is Gunther supposed to do if we have no talent/difference-makers?
Is it his fault or the no-talent players fault?

4th and Long
08-18-2006, 01:29 PM
So what is Gunther supposed to do if we have no talent/difference-makers?
Is it his fault or the no-talent players fault?
Stop making valid points. It confuses him.

FringeNC
08-18-2006, 01:29 PM
This is what I'm trying to get at. Schemes, as we've seen are completely overrated on defense. It all comes down to talent, and do you have guys who can be considered difference-makers on defense. That is why I don't understand people who want to believe that Gunther is holding back some magic scheme or strategy that is magically going to transform the Chiefs defense into a playoff-caliber D once the season begins.

No scheme can't compensate for a lack of talent/difference-makers and that is exactly what the problem is in the middle of the defensive line. The Chiefs don't have an interior D-lineman that commands double teams and that consistently dominates the line of scrimmage. No scheme (especially in a Cover 2 style defense) is going to compensate for this void.

I disagree. I think schemes are very important, and the reason we suck is that Gun has no real scheme. Gun is always looking for gimmicks rather than basic schemes that will work. Every year, we try out a new Gun gimmick.

It's funny, Saunders was ridiculed for running a gimmicky offense. His gimmicks were out of a consisent play-book -- just certain plays to keep the D off-balance...Gun, on the other hand, WTF is Gun's scheme? Anyone?

dirk digler
08-18-2006, 02:23 PM
So what is Gunther supposed to do if we have no talent/difference-makers?
Is it his fault or the no-talent players fault?

ROFL

Is the new excuse again for Gunther?

1st year excuse: The players suck
2nd year excuse: My D coaches and DV suck
3rd year excuse: My players suck again

NO MORE EXCUSES FOR GUNTHER! :cuss:

He has the players if he can't make it work then he should be shit canned over the Intraweb again.