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View Full Version : Help with a project... Who were the greatest Chiefs who never made a Pro Bowl?


cdcox
08-20-2006, 03:28 PM
Please help me build a list of the greatest Chiefs never to make a probowl. I'm looking for guys that played on the Chiefs for a number of years, were an intergal part of any success we had, but for one reason or another never made a Pro Bowl. Guys like Casey Wiegmann.

I've got an interesting idea for a project related to football statistics, but I have a serious lack of data to complete the project. I want to get a good idea what % of key contributers I miss by leaving out anyone who didn't make at least one pro bowl.

I've given the link to Rainman's Pro Bowl thread if you aren't sure if a guy you are thinking of ever made a pro bowl.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=142249&highlight=probowl

Thanks in advance.

milkman
08-20-2006, 03:29 PM
Brian Shay

58-4ever
08-20-2006, 03:34 PM
Casey Wiegmann

KcMizzou
08-20-2006, 03:34 PM
Brian ShayI'll see your Brian Shay, and raise you a Jesse Haynes.

milkman
08-20-2006, 03:36 PM
I'll see your Brian Shay, and raise you a Jesse Haynes.

OK, I'll raise you a Ted White.

milkman
08-20-2006, 03:38 PM
Seriously Seedy, if I were you, I'd look for Rain Man's Everything you wanted to know about Chiefs Pro Bowlers thread.

That could help you eliminate alot of players as possibilities.

cdcox
08-20-2006, 03:46 PM
Seriously Seedy, if I were you, I'd look for Rain Man's Everything you wanted to know about Chiefs Pro Bowlers thread.

That could help you eliminate alot of players as possibilities.

I linked to that tread in the topic sarter.

Here are the guys that immediately came to mind, but I'm sure I'm missing a ton:

Stefan Paige
Henry Marshall
Eddie Kennsion
Mike Sensibaugh
Joe Hall


I also want to avoid my biases, so getting a broader persepctive is helpful.

milkman
08-20-2006, 03:51 PM
I linked to that tread in the topic sarter.

Here are the guys that immediately came to mind, but I'm sure I'm missing a ton:

Stefan Paige
Henry Marshall
Eddie Kennsion
Mike Sensibaugh
Joe Hall


I also want to avoid my biases, so getting a broader persepctive is helpful.

I missed that.

My vote would be Paige.

Rain Man
08-20-2006, 04:08 PM
My all-non-Pro Bowl Chiefs team, off the top of my head with no research. Of these, I think only Paige, White, Szott, Wiegman, and Spani could be legitimately considered contenders.

QB - Steve DeBerg
RB - Barry Word
RB - Wendell Hayes (apologies to Todd McNair)
WR - Stephone Paige
WR - Eddie Kennison (apologies to Henry Marshall and J.T. Smith)
TE - Walter White
T - Irv Eatman
T - Glenn Parker (apologies to Dave Hill)
G - Dave Szott
G - Tom Condon, I guess
C - Casey Wiegman
K - Mike Mercer?
P - Jim Arnold
S - Jim Kearney
S - Greg Wesley, believe it or not
CB - Eric Warfield
CB - Eric Harris
OLB - Anthony Davis
OLB - Thomas Howard
ILB - Gary Spani
DE - Vaughn Booker
DE - Jared Allen
DT - Chester McGlockton
DT - Tom Barndt

cdcox
08-20-2006, 04:11 PM
My all-non-Pro Bowl Chiefs team, off the top of my head with no research. Of these, I think only Paige, White, Szott, Wiegman, and Spani could be legitimately considered contenders.

QB - Steve DeBerg
RB - Barry Word
RB - Wendell Hayes (apologies to Todd McNair)
WR - Stephone Paige
WR - Eddie Kennison (apologies to Henry Marshall and J.T. Smith)
TE - Walter White
T - Irv Eatman
T - Glenn Parker (apologies to Dave Hill)
G - Dave Szott
G - Tom Condon, I guess
C - Casey Wiegman
K - Mike Mercer?
P - Jim Arnold
S - Jim Kearney
S - Greg Wesley, believe it or not
CB - Eric Warfield
CB - Eric Harris
OLB - Anthony Davis
OLB - Thomas Howard
ILB - Gary Spani
DE - Vaughn Booker
DE - Jared Allen
DT - Chester McGlockton
DT - Tom Barndt

Ah, just the man I'm looking for:

1. Where did you get the data to compile your all time greatest Chiefs survey with all the years that they played and all the years that they started?

2. How long did it take you to compile the list?

3. Want to do it 31 more times? (just joking)

Rain Man
08-20-2006, 04:18 PM
Ah, just the man I'm looking for:

1. Where did you get the data to compile your all time greatest Chiefs survey with all the years that they played and all the years that they started?

2. How long did it take you to compile the list?

3. Want to do it 31 more times? (just joking)

1. I just pulled it from here. I imported it into Excel and then took out the guys who had less than X years of service or Y years as a starter. http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/misc/all_time_alphabetical_roster.pdf

2. Not too long. 3 or 4 hours of dedicated work.

3. No. (Not joking) If I had time, I'd do it, but I'll bet that other teams don't have the information available in a nice format like that.

Florida_Bronco
08-20-2006, 04:19 PM
Dave Szott - The guy was way underrated and very consistent. I don't believe he ever did make it to a Pro Bowl, which is a damn shame.

Rain Man
08-20-2006, 04:28 PM
Here's an index of all pro bowl rosters since 1950.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/pbindex.htm

I should note that I cross-compared it to the Chiefs' own list of pro bowlers on their site. There were a few areas of disagreement, and so my own pro bowl thread included players who appeared on either list.

Bowser
08-20-2006, 04:31 PM
It would be hard to leave Vanover off a list such as that.

Skip Towne
08-20-2006, 04:53 PM
Did Ed Podolak ever make it?

cdcox
08-20-2006, 05:26 PM
1. I just pulled it from here. I imported it into Excel and then took out the guys who had less than X years of service or Y years as a starter. http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/misc/all_time_alphabetical_roster.pdf

2. Not too long. 3 or 4 hours of dedicated work.

3. No. (Not joking) If I had time, I'd do it, but I'll bet that other teams don't have the information available in a nice format like that.

Yeh, the 3-4 hours part is what I was afraid of. I'd limit myself to the last 20 or 25 years but that is still a probably a 100 hr project for all 32 teams.

I knew about the pro bowl list on nfl-reference.com. The neat thing is that all their data is in downloadable files that you can open in a spreadsheet or parse with custom software. The problem is they don't have any data for non-skill position players that have never been in a pro-bowl.

What I really want to do is make a system to evaluate each team's drafting over the last 25 years or so. Sort of like what you did for the Chiefs a couple months ago, but exand it for every team in the league. The draft histories are on NFL.com, and a ton of player data are at nfl-reference.com. But nothing besides probowls are given to evaluate OL and defenders. Even a down loadable all-time NFL roster with the number of years in the league would help, but is no where to be found. And the players people have listed so far show you really can't ignore players who don't make the probowl -- they make too big of a contribution.

My best idea for getting the data so far is to post the draftees of each team to that team's message board and ask for help from the fans. Get them to list the years they played for the team, how many years they were a starter, and if there was anything special about them. I'm not sure how effective this would be in terms of response. Anyone have any better ideas?

Rain Man
08-20-2006, 05:49 PM
Yeah, I feel your pain. I'd love to have such a database, too.

The closest I've found is this site, http://www.databasefootball.com/, but it's gawdawfully slow and you have to look up the players one at a time. The project you are proposing would be a gargantuan task using that site.

I like your idea of posting the data on other boards and asking them to help. You'll need lots of labor, and maybe you can find one or two people on each board that would do it. The challenge, of course, is whether they'll do it properly...

cdcox
08-20-2006, 06:04 PM
Yeah, I feel your pain. I'd love to have such a database, too.

The closest I've found is this site, http://www.databasefootball.com/, but it's gawdawfully slow and you have to look up the players one at a time. The project you are proposing would be a gargantuan task using that site.

I like your idea of posting the data on other boards and asking them to help. You'll need lots of labor, and maybe you can find one or two people on each board that would do it. The challenge, of course, is whether they'll do it properly...

I was really excited when I found that databasefootball site a few weeks ago becasue they have data that pro-football-reference.com does not. I even wrote to them to ask of they would provide access to their flat database files, but they never wrote back.

Your concern over accuracy gives me another idea. I'll write Doug over at pro-football-reference.com to see if he is interested in filling out his data base. If so, maybe he can enlist some additional help from the readers of his blog. He can organize and curate the whole thing. I would be willing to do 4 teams or so (after that my mind would go numb) just to get access to the information.

Demonpenz
08-20-2006, 06:11 PM
way to go grbac he was a pro bowlers!

boogblaster
08-20-2006, 07:19 PM
What about my ole toking buddy Mike BELL....BOOG OUTT....

The Dude Abides
08-20-2006, 10:20 PM
Dave Szott - The guy was way underrated and very consistent. I don't believe he ever did make it to a Pro Bowl, which is a damn shame.
Here Here!!! :clap:

Deberg_1990
08-20-2006, 10:35 PM
Eric Hicks??

cdcox
08-20-2006, 11:03 PM
Eric Hicks??

That is actually a great question. Hicks wasn't drafted, but if he was, he'd be rated pretty strongly in the system I'm considering since he has been in the league for 9 years and started for many of those. However, we all know that it is more complicated than that. We are all too familiar with Hick's shortcomings over the last few years. He did have a really good year a long time ago. Over all, during his whole career were we better off for having him or not having him? Not having him would mean we didn't get the benefit of his good years. Not having him would mean that undoubtably someone worse would have been filling his spots in at least some of those years. Not having him would mean that we would have had to fill that need at some point, and maybe missing out on one of our other contributors. I think the evidence is on the side of having him. But in my system, he would receive the same rating as someone like Dave Szott, who was actually a stallwart at guard for many years and never a liability. I'm assuming the Hicks and the Szotts will average out. I can't think of a way of doing more accruate ratings of every player in the NFL over the last 20 years with a reasonable amount of effort.

ChiefsCountry
08-20-2006, 11:51 PM
Gary Spani

Immaculate
08-21-2006, 12:10 AM
Casey Wiegmann
Ahmen.

HemiEd
08-21-2006, 06:29 AM
Kemball Anders.

Tribal Warfare
08-21-2006, 06:37 AM
Grunhard or Simien

StcChief
08-21-2006, 06:48 AM
1. I just pulled it from here. I imported it into Excel and then took out the guys who had less than X years of service or Y years as a starter. http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/misc/all_time_alphabetical_roster.pdf

2. Not too long. 3 or 4 hours of dedicated work.

3. No. (Not joking) If I had time, I'd do it, but I'll bet that other teams don't have the information available in a nice format like that.

Set this data Into a relational database.

Questions (Queries) like this can be answered in minutes.

redsurfer11
08-21-2006, 07:01 AM
Jim Lynch #51

StcChief
08-21-2006, 07:13 AM
I was really excited when I found that databasefootball site a few weeks ago becasue they have data that pro-football-reference.com does not. I even wrote to them to ask of they would provide access to their flat database files, but they never wrote back.

Your concern over accuracy gives me another idea. I'll write Doug over at pro-football-reference.com to see if he is interested in filling out his data base. If so, maybe he can enlist some additional help from the readers of his blog. He can organize and curate the whole thing. I would be willing to do 4 teams or so (after that my mind would go numb) just to get access to the information.

Set up a relational database with all the player stats.

How are these sites databases organized. They should not be slow if done right.

The problem here is 'FLAT DATABASE FILES'. Relational design and
design rollup summary tables as needed.
I would consider doing a
Proof of Concept on my Home Oracle XE database. Send me the excell
data. Say just the Chiefs and one other team (you pick) To validate queries.

I could not host it
once complete but the design could be ported to YourSQL or what ever.

Mr. Kotter
08-21-2006, 07:40 AM
Rich Scanlon.

Duh.

cdcox
08-21-2006, 10:38 AM
Set up a relational database with all the player stats.

How are these sites databases organized. They should not be slow if done right.

The problem here is 'FLAT DATABASE FILES'. Relational design and
design rollup summary tables as needed.
I would consider doing a
Proof of Concept on my Home Oracle XE database. Send me the excell
data. Say just the Chiefs and one other team (you pick) To validate queries.

I could not host it
once complete but the design could be ported to YourSQL or what ever.

You are correct that the problem is the flat database files. There are two good sites:

pro-football-reference.com has downloadable flat database files. But only has information for 1) skill players and 2) probowlers.

databasefootball.com has data on all players, but no access to flat files. You would have to click on each player's link and manually recreate the flat file. Maybe someone is smart enough to build a web robot to build the flat file automatically, but that is beyond my skill level. The site owners might also get ticked off at such an activity.

cdcox
08-21-2006, 10:44 AM
I found out about a new stat book that looks like it will have the info I am looking for (but not in electronic form) that may also be of interest to some here.

It's called "The ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia". You can read a review of it here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/wordpress/?p=126)

wutamess
08-21-2006, 10:59 AM
Donnie Edwards

StcChief
08-21-2006, 11:54 AM
I found out about a new stat book that looks like it will have the info I am looking for (but not in electronic form) that may also be of interest to some here.

It's called "The ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia". You can read a review of it here (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/wordpress/?p=126)

Books are great for the coffee table to talk stats etc over a beer....

To do any real stats work need a real database. I still can't believe
anyone wouldn't want that (even to charge admission).

Some of the pay sites have good capability or more glorifed spreadsheets.

This would add considerable value to drafting analysis, what-if questions, this type of ADHOC question (name players who never made the pro-bowl but had the numbers)
etc.

A well design database would likely pay for the cost of dev in 2-3 yearsespecially if the word gets out about it's capability.

Anyone see a market, money making opportunity here?

cdcox
08-21-2006, 12:11 PM
Books are great for the coffee table to talk stats etc over a beer....

To do any real stats work need a real database. I still can't believe
anyone wouldn't want that (even to charge admission).

Some of the pay sites have good capability or more glorifed spreadsheets.

This would add considerable value to drafting analysis, what-if questions, this type of ADHOC question (name players who never made the pro-bowl but had the numbers)
etc.

A well design database would likely pay for the cost of dev in 2-3 yearsespecially if the word gets out about it's capability.

Anyone see a market, money making opportunity here?

The two sites I mentioned are the leaders in on-line football statistics. Neither have the database query capability that you describe, but building a good web-based interface for a completely fexible query system seems challenging.

I know pro-footaball-reference.com has plans to add query features. I have no idea how advanced they will be. He sells sponsorships for each of his pages, but he's not making a fortune at it. Most people are cheap when it comes to paying for access to websites (premium membership). I think you have to build your user community first, then look for ways to extract $ out of it, if that is what you are after.

StcChief
08-21-2006, 01:35 PM
The two sites I mentioned are the leaders in on-line football statistics. Neither have the database query capability that you describe, but building a good web-based interface for a completely fexible query system seems challenging.

I know pro-footaball-reference.com has plans to add query features. I have no idea how advanced they will be. He sells sponsorships for each of his pages, but he's not making a fortune at it. Most people are cheap when it comes to paying for access to websites (premium membership). I think you have to build your user community first, then look for ways to extract $ out of it, if that is what you are after.

If you have sample data in M$ excell or csv file with layout discription.
PM me with some files.

I would like to play with it in Oracle.

As far as selling it idea/functionality.. That could be a down the road, bait users with limited functionality issue. Like everyone does these days with their products. Database tools limit size of result set/ queries issued.

cdcox
08-21-2006, 01:49 PM
nm_dbf-

Here is the link to the flat files at pro-football-reference.com. It's best for you to get them there so you can read the terms of use and read the formatting details.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/download/

HemiEd
08-21-2006, 01:51 PM
Kris "TD" Wilson.

StcChief
08-21-2006, 02:42 PM
If Wilson is in then....

:Lin: has to be. :p

CHENZ A!
08-21-2006, 02:43 PM
Anthony Davis was one of my favorites.

shaneo69
08-21-2006, 04:53 PM
John Browning
Joe (the Fugitive) Phillips
Willie Davis
J.J. Birden
Walter White
Jonathan Hayes
Matt Herkenhoff
Victor Riley
John Tait