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chief2000
08-28-2006, 12:53 AM
That something strange is happening with Thorpe. He does everything you could ask but he doesn't get PT. Said he may get cut and someone might pick him up.

:hmmm:

He said Siavii is going to get cut. :cuss:

Mecca
08-28-2006, 12:55 AM
Nothing like those awesome Vermiel draft picks......

Phobia
08-28-2006, 12:57 AM
Which guy said that?

chief2000
08-28-2006, 12:59 AM
Guy on 810am . Not Athon dude.

Short Leash Hootie
08-28-2006, 12:59 AM
Nothing like those awesome Vermiel draft picks......
because every draft pick for every other team always works out...

CoMoChief
08-28-2006, 01:06 AM
because every draft pick for every other team always works out...

Yeah but Siavii has to be the worst Chiefs draft pick in team history.

Short Leash Hootie
08-28-2006, 01:09 AM
Yeah but Siavii has to be the worst Chiefs draft pick in team history.
He was a 2nd round pick...whoopdee****indoo!

We'll be ok.

tk13
08-28-2006, 01:10 AM
Nothing like those awesome Vermiel draft picks......
The guy was a fourth round draft pick. He was considered a first round talent but was hurt. He's exactly the kinda guy you usually like... you were the one wanting us to take Cromartie this year in the 1st round.

Phobia
08-28-2006, 01:11 AM
810? Really? I guess it could have been Mike Nugent. We're usually on 610 on Sunday nights though.

Short Leash Hootie
08-28-2006, 01:11 AM
mecca and logical are both f*cking gay...

Short Leash Hootie
08-28-2006, 01:12 AM
Was Jared Allen a Vermeil draft pick?!

Just wondering...

PastorMikH
08-28-2006, 01:26 AM
Jr about to be cut. Another wasted pick on a DT. I sure am glad we didn't waste any more pics on DTs.

svuba
08-28-2006, 01:30 AM
Yeah but Siavii has to be the worst Chiefs draft pick in team history.

Trezelle Jenkins (born March 13, 1973) was an offensive tackle for the Kansas City Chiefs from 1995 through 1997.
[edit]

Professional Career

He was taken 31st overall by the Kansas City Chiefs in the 1995 NFL Draft. He played in only 9 games in 3 seasons before being waived after the 1997 season. Jenkins was subsequently signed by the New Orleans Saints and Minnesota Vikings but never appeared in a game for either team.

In 2000, Jenkins was drafted 156th overall by the San Francisco Demons of the XFL but failed to make the team.


Todd Blackledge (February 25, 1961 in Canton, Ohio) is a college football analyst and former NFL quarterback.

Blackledge was a three-year starter at Penn State, where he guided the Nittany Lions to 31-5 record including a national championship in 1982. Following the 1982 season, he won the Davey O'Brien Award for best quarterback in the nation. In 1983, he was selected in the first round of the NFL Draft by the Kansas City Chiefs, where he played for five seasons (1983-87) before ending his career with the Pittsburgh Steelers (1988-89).

Spicy McHaggis
08-28-2006, 01:35 AM
Jr about to be cut. Another wasted pick on a DT. I sure am glad we didn't waste any more pics on DTs.


There's always next year. Actually there were some guys late in this draft that I really wish we would have looked at considering our lack of quality at the position.

tk13
08-28-2006, 01:37 AM
Gunther taking Bartee in the 2nd round has to go up there as a real winner.

Short Leash Hootie
08-28-2006, 01:59 AM
Gunther taking Bartee in the 2nd round has to go up there as a real winner.
he gets an 80+ rating in madden every year, and he develops!!!

CoMoChief
08-28-2006, 02:06 AM
He was a 2nd round pick...whoopdee****indoo!

We'll be ok.

Well consider these few things....

1. Siavii never did shit in college and people were debating whether or not the guy was even gonna be drafted.

2. He was a 2nd rounder, but we traded down to get this guy.

3. Werent we trying to rebuild on defense? You dont do that with projects. You draft players who will start, especially with first day picks.

4. What a ****in waste of a pick.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 02:48 AM
Get pissed at me all you want.......when you blow as many picks as Vermiel has or this team in general you should get pissed at the team. That's why our team is old as hell. We have blown numerous first day draft picks.

Cromartie probably won't be the player he's going to be for 2 years but I think he'll be one of the best players from that draft class.....

You really can't defend the way the Chiefs have drafted if over a 5 year span there are fans that could have overall done a better job that isn't a good sign.

tk13
08-28-2006, 03:17 AM
Really? You're blowing this way out of proportion. We've had some big flops, yes, but so does everybody else. In that time we've also drafted Larry Johnson, Kawika Mitchell, Derrick Johnson, and Jared Allen. That's four potential Pro Bowl caliber players. Key Fox is pushing for a starting spot. Samie Parker's turning into a starter, very solid for a 2nd day pick. Same with Svitek, possibly Kevin Sampson too. Got good value out of Jimmy Wilkerson. Colquitt's looking great. Great value out of the Dante Hall, Derrick Blaylock, Scott Fujita picks. And that doesn't even mention getting Trent Green, Willie Roaf, John Welbourn, and Patrick Surtain for draft picks. I don't think the Chiefs are the best team when it comes to the draft, but we've done some really positive things too. To act like it's some giant disaster that's indefensible is really overreacting. It's not even close.

Guru
08-28-2006, 03:26 AM
Really? You're blowing this way out of proportion. We've had some big flops, yes, but so does everybody else. In that time we've also drafted Larry Johnson, Kawika Mitchell, Derrick Johnson, and Jared Allen. That's four potential Pro Bowl caliber players. Key Fox is pushing for a starting spot. Samie Parker's turning into a starter, very solid for a 2nd day pick. Same with Svitek, possibly Kevin Sampson too. Got good value out of Jimmy Wilkerson. Colquitt's looking great. Great value out of the Dante Hall, Derrick Blaylock, Scott Fujita picks. And that doesn't even mention getting Trent Green, Willie Roaf, John Welbourn, and Patrick Surtain for draft picks. I don't think the Chiefs are the best team when it comes to the draft, but we've done some really positive things too. To act like it's some giant disaster that's indefensible is really overreacting. It's not even close.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

NJ Chief Fan
08-28-2006, 03:30 AM
~cough~ ryan sims ~cough~

tk13
08-28-2006, 03:33 AM
That's the really big one, no doubt. I didn't say we were the greatest, and our DT flops have been our biggest problem. No doubt about that. But Ryan Sims is not the only top 10 pick to ever flop. Heck he wasn't the only big time DT prospect from that draft to flop either, and all those guys were supposed to be really good. We should've gotten more out of that pick. But on the flip side most teams don't get guys like Larry Johnson at 27 every year either. Which makes us probably about average.

Guru
08-28-2006, 03:34 AM
~cough~ ryan sims ~cough~


Come on man. We are trying hard to avoid that name. :banghead: :cuss:

Jim Jones
08-28-2006, 03:35 AM
In that time we've also drafted Larry Johnson, Kawika Mitchell, Derrick Johnson, and Jared Allen. That's four potential Pro Bowl caliber players

Kawika is never going to sniff a pro bowl, Jared Allen probably won't either. DJ may someday.

Key Fox is pushing for a starting spot. Samie Parker's turning into a starter, very solid for a 2nd day pick. Same with Svitek, possibly Kevin Sampson too.

Here's the problem, these guys all suck (well Svitek is decent), they are only pushing for starting spots because of our weak drafts the last few years.

Great value out of the Dante Hall

Yes.

Derrick Blaylock

No.

Scott Fujita

WHAT?!

We aren't the worst drafting team in the league, but we haven't done much to hang our hat on lately.

tk13
08-28-2006, 03:40 AM
What do you expect out a 5th round pick? I think all those guys were successes. You aren't going to draft a superstar every year in the 5th round. Blaylock is a pretty solid backup RB, and while I didn't have a problem with letting him go, Fujita was and is still able to find a starting job in the NFL. Not a pro bowler, but for a 5th rounder that's pretty good.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 03:44 AM
Really? You're blowing this way out of proportion. We've had some big flops, yes, but so does everybody else. In that time we've also drafted Larry Johnson, Kawika Mitchell, Derrick Johnson, and Jared Allen. That's four potential Pro Bowl caliber players. Key Fox is pushing for a starting spot. Samie Parker's turning into a starter, very solid for a 2nd day pick. Same with Svitek, possibly Kevin Sampson too. Got good value out of Jimmy Wilkerson. Colquitt's looking great. Great value out of the Dante Hall, Derrick Blaylock, Scott Fujita picks. And that doesn't even mention getting Trent Green, Willie Roaf, John Welbourn, and Patrick Surtain for draft picks. I don't think the Chiefs are the best team when it comes to the draft, but we've done some really positive things too. To act like it's some giant disaster that's indefensible is really overreacting. It's not even close.

To put things in perspective I'm going to post the Chiefs drafts since 2000.

2000
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
2 54 William Bartee SS Oklahoma
3 85 Greg Wesley FS Arkansas-Pine Bluff
4 115 Frank Moreau RB Louisville
5 153 Dante' Hall WR Texas A&M
5 162 Pat Dennis CB Louisiana-Monroe
6 188 Darnell Alford G Boston College
7 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman

2001
3 75 Eric Downing DT Syracuse
3 77 Marvin Minnis WR Florida State
4 107 Monty Beisel ILB Kansas State
4 108 George Layne RB Texas Christian
5 141 Billy Baber TE Virginia
5 150 Derrick Blaylock RB Stephen F. Austin
6 176 Alex Sulfsted G Miami, O.
7 212 Shaunard Harts FS Boise State
7 243 Terdell Sands NT Tenn.-Chattanooga

2002
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 6 Ryan Sims DT North Carolina
2 43 Eddie Freeman DE Ala.-Birmingham
4 107 Omar Easy FB Penn State
5 143 Scott Fujita OLB California
7 221 Maurice Rodriguez LB Fresno State

2003
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 27 Larry Johnson RB Penn State
2 47 Kawika Mitchell MLB South Florida
3 92 Julian Battle CB Tennessee
4 113 Brett Williams T Florida State
5 153 Jordan Black T Notre Dame
6 189 Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
7 230 Montique Sharpe DT Wake Forest
7 252 Willie Pile FS Virginia Tech

2004
2 36 Junior Siavii DT Oregon
2 61 Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh
3 93 Keyaron Fox OLB Georgia Tech
4 105 Samie Parker WR Oregon
4 126 Jared Allen DE Idaho State
6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

2005
1 15 Derrick Johnson OLB Texas
3 99 Dustin Colquitt P Tennessee
4 116 Craphonso Thorpe WR Florida State
5 138 Boomer Grigsby MLB Illinois State
5 147 Alphonso Hodge CB Miami, O.
6 187 Will Svitek T Stanford
6 199 Khari Long DE Baylor
7 229 James Kilian QB Tulsa
7 238 Jeremy Parquet T Southern Mississippi

2006
1 20 Hali, Tamba DE 6-3 275 Penn State
2 54 Pollard, Bernard SS 6-2 223 Purdue
3 85 Croyle, Brodie QB 6-3 204 Alabama
5 154 Maxey, Marcus CB 6-2 197 Miami (Fla.)
6 186 Stallings, Tre' G 6-3 315 Mississippi
6 190 Webb, Jeff WR 6-2 201 San Diego State
7 228 Page, Jarrad SS 6-0 220 UCLA

Ok now when you look at those drafts......you can't exactly tell me those are great drafts. When you watch these preseason games and wonder why the backups suck and there's no depth.....here's a pretty novel reason as to why we have no depth. It doesn't impress me that a first or 2nd round pick is on the field he's SUPPOSE to be that's why he's picked there. The standards for what a good pick for this is have become so low people think it's a good pick if the guy plays.

As far as your Pro Bowl comments, Larry Johnson is the only one of those 4 who is a Pro Bowler. Jared Allen is not Dwight Freeney he is not Jason Taylor he is not an elite end in this conference. He's a good player not a perenial Pro Bowler. Kawika Mitchell and Derrick Johnson have a long way to go before they make the Pro Bowl....the NFL is loaded with LB's they aren't close to making a Pro Bowl right now.

With Key Fox he's been here 3 years and has yet to show anything other than that he can run around in preseason. He should have been on the field playing by now. I like the Parker comment seeing as he wouldn't start on almost any team, he starts on this one because the WR's are ass. The rest of those guys have proven exactly jack squat...

You can tell yourself whatever you want to make you believe what you want but the fact of the matter is this team is horrible at drafting. Your first 2 picks should be contributors right away with your 3rd and 4th round picks being able to contribute by the 2nd year at least. The Chiefs have been so attrocious at using their picks the right way that people think a guy is a good pick just when he gets on the field and don't even look at how he plays.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 03:46 AM
What do you expect out a 5th round pick? I think all those guys were successes. You aren't going to draft a superstar every year in the 5th round. Blaylock is a pretty solid backup RB, and while I didn't have a problem with letting him go, Fujita was and is still able to find a starting job in the NFL. Not a pro bowler, but for a 5th rounder that's pretty good.

Jim Jones points out exactly one of my points...Samie Parker is only starting due to other bad picks.

By the way Scott Fujita sucks monkey ass, he only has a starting job because he signed with the Saints who have the worst LB's in the history of football.

Jim Jones
08-28-2006, 03:47 AM
What do you expect out a 5th round pick? I think all those guys were successes. You aren't going to draft a superstar every year in the 5th round. Blaylock is a pretty solid backup RB, and while I didn't have a problem with letting him go, Fujita was and is still able to find a starting job in the NFL. Not a pro bowler, but for a 5th rounder that's pretty good.

Fujita was and is a terrible player, and Blaylock is a backup only because our offensive line opened monster holes for him for a few games to make people think he was worth a crap.

I don't call those successful picks, because you can go through the draft of every team in the league and find players like that. A 4th or 5th round LB or RB who hangs on for a few years and then gets casted off somewhere.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 03:50 AM
Derrick Blaylock is so great......the Jets traded for Kevan Barlow.

Jim Jones
08-28-2006, 03:52 AM
Those 2000-2002 drafts are just the stuff of nightmares. Only one good player drafted in three years, and all he does is return kicks.

Although the following years are almost equally as bad save for one good pick each year.

tk13
08-28-2006, 03:53 AM
I don't believe I named a single 1st or 2nd round pick that I thought was good "just because he plays". The guys I named in that manner were all 2nd day picks. And I'll stand by that statement. If you can find starting contributors with your 2nd day picks, you've done very well for yourself.

And part of it is just that we haven't had that many 1st day picks because of trades. I wouldn't debate that, or that we have a bad 2nd round track record, although guys like Kawika and Pollard look to be trying to break that trend. But overall we didn't make any effort to stockpile 1st day picks, and we weren't afraid to give them away for guys we wanted like Roaf and Surtain. I wouldn't disagree with that at all. But there is a difference between trading picks and bad drafting. I don't think we're great at drafting but we've done some solid things.

And I think Derrick Johnson absolutely without a doubt has the talent to be a Pro Bowl player. Maybe he won't get there, we'll see, but he has the talent to do that. And so does Jared Allen, although I think it would help if we made the playoffs, the defense played well and he had a 12-14 sack season with some strips.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 03:54 AM
Those 2000-2002 drafts are just the stuff of nightmares. Only one good player drafted in three years, and all he does is return kicks.

Although the following years are almost equally as bad save for one good pick each year.

I wanna know why these horrible drafts are being defended.....these shitty ass drafts are why we're in the position we're in of having marginal starters at some positions, no depth and having an old team.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 03:58 AM
Trading away picks for veteran players doesn't excuse this team from making horrible choices with the ones they still have.

Jim Jones
08-28-2006, 04:00 AM
I don't believe I named a single 1st or 2nd round pick that I thought was good "just because he plays". The guys I named in that manner were all 2nd day picks. And I'll stand by that statement. If you can find starting contributors with your 2nd day picks, you've done very well for yourself.

A player like Scott Fujita should not be starting in the NFL. If he is, it's not because he's so good that he forced his way onto the field, it's because through bad drafting, you are extremely weak at that position.

And part of it is just that we haven't had that many 1st day picks because of trades. I wouldn't debate that, or that we have a bad 2nd round track record, although guys like Kawika and Pollard look to be trying to break that trend. But overall we didn't make any effort to stockpile 1st day picks, and we weren't afraid to give them away for guys we wanted like Roaf and Surtain. I wouldn't disagree with that at all. But there is a difference between trading picks and bad drafting. I don't think we're great at drafting but we've done some solid things.

I'm not going to argue that we have made some wise trades with our picks, because we have, but we haven't used many of our other picks well. Team depth is built through drafts, and as it concerns the depth on this team - well, let's just say the cupboard isn't exactly full.

And I think Derrick Johnson absolutely without a doubt has the talent to be a Pro Bowl player. Maybe he won't get there, we'll see, but he has the talent to do that. And so does Jared Allen, although I think it would help if we made the playoffs, the defense played well and he had a 12-14 sack season with some strips.

If we make the playoffs, the defense plays well, and Allen gets 14 sacks with some forced fumbles he's going to the pro bowl? Sweet.

If Trent Green gets hurt, Brodie Croyle gains 20 pounds, Samie Parker turns into a 1,000 yard receiver, and the offensive line doesn't allow a sack all year - BRODIE IS GOING TO HAWAII!!

el borracho
08-28-2006, 04:03 AM
Shame about Thorpe (if true). Based on nothing at all I had hoped he might develop into something.

Siavii is no surprise.

tk13
08-28-2006, 04:07 AM
Fujita saw significant playing time for Dallas last year. That was a team with a winning record and a top 10-12 defense. They didn't have talent?

You guys are being a bit overdramatic. You act like all of our players stink, while every other team knocks every draft out of the park every year in rounds 1-7. That's just not true. Samie Parker has the chance to be a decent football player that contributes to a winning football team. Just because you're not a Pro Bowler doesn't mean you suck. And I totally agree, I think to be successful you have to build through the draft. We've done some unorthodox things, but they've worked. I wouldn't take the Trent Green or Willie Roaf trades back. Plus we've been maybe the best team in the league with cheap FA's... Priest, Wiegmann, developing Brian Waters, those three moves were huge, and inexpensive. I have no problem with that. And we absolutely could've done a better job at drafting. I wouldn't even debate that. I just think we're average, not horrible. And that's probably about right... we have some hits, LJ, DJ, Kawika, etc... and some misses, Sims, Freeman, Siavii. At the end of the day, that makes us about average.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 04:08 AM
A player like Scott Fujita should not be starting in the NFL. If he is, it's not because he's so good that he forced his way onto the field, it's because through bad drafting, you are extremely weak at that position.



I'm not going to argue that we have made some wise trades with our picks, because we have, but we haven't used many of our other picks well. Team depth is built through drafts, and as it concerns the depth on this team - well, let's just say the cupboard isn't exactly full.



If we make the playoffs, the defense plays well, and Allen gets 14 sacks with some forced fumbles he's going to the pro bowl? Sweet.

If Trent Green gets hurt, Brodie Croyle gains 20 pounds, Samie Parker turns into a 1,000 yard receiver, and the offensive line doesn't allow a sack all year - BRODIE IS GOING TO HAWAII!!

I think people around here tend to think Jared Allen is a little better than he really is..........he isn't Dwight Freeney or Jason Taylor.......he's more like Aaron Schobel.

tk13
08-28-2006, 04:12 AM
Actually I've probably been one of the most critical people of Allen because I think he can still get beat down in the run game sometimes, see the Giants game last year. But he's a good pass rusher, and that is what gets you in the Pro Bowl.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 04:14 AM
The reason why it makes me mad and I consider us below average is...the chiefs blow FIRST DAY picks all the time. They take massive reaches it's one thing to take a guy who's rated at your pick and it doesn't pan out. It's another to reach up and take a 4th rounder in the 2nd like Siavii and pretty much know the guy blows a minute after the pick.

If instead of taking Siavii and Wilson they had taken Karlos Dansy and Darnell Dockett and they didn't work out I'd have a different opinion. I'd be like they took the right guys just didn't work out. Most of the Chiefs horrible picks are them taking a guy several rounds before he should be picked.

Jim Jones
08-28-2006, 04:15 AM
Fujita saw significant playing time for Dallas last year. That was a team with a winning record and a top 10-12 defense. They didn't have talent?


I didn't see enough of the Cowboys to say how much playing time Fujita got, but I know that one year of Fujita ball was all Bill Parcells, who I trust knows a good LB when he sees one, needed to see to want to ship him off to New Orleans.

You guys are being a bit overdramatic. You act like all of our players stink, while every other team knocks every draft out of the park every year in rounds 1-7. That's just not true. Samie Parker has the chance to be a decent football player that contributes to a winning football team. Just because you're not a Pro Bowler doesn't mean you suck. And I totally agree, I think to be successful you have to build through the draft. We've done some unorthodox things, but they've worked. I wouldn't take the Trent Green or Willie Roaf trades back. And we absolutely could've done a better job at drafting. I wouldn't even debate that. I just think we're average, not horrible. And that's probably about right... we have some hits, LJ, DJ, Kawika, etc... and some misses, Sims, Freeman, Siavii. At the end of the day, that makes us about average.

I'd call us below average. Almost all of our key contributers are people we acquired through free agency or trade, and we have little to no depth on this team. It reflects poorly on the future of this team.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 04:16 AM
You know Fujita was only playing for Dallas because Al Singleton, Kevin Burnett and Dat Nguyen all got injured, he was suppose to be a backup and got on the field due to injury.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 04:17 AM
I didn't see enough of the Cowboys to say how much playing time Fujita got, but I know that one year of Fujita ball was all Bill Parcells, who I trust knows a good LB when he sees one, needed to see to want to ship him off to New Orleans.



I'd call us below average. Almost all of our key contributers are people we acquired through free agency or trade, and we have little to no depth on this team. It reflects poorly on the future of this team.

Pretty much our entire roster was built in free agency........that explains the age and cap problems pretty easily.

tk13
08-28-2006, 04:23 AM
The reason why it makes me mad and I consider us below average is...the chiefs blow FIRST DAY picks all the time. They take massive reaches it's one thing to take a guy who's rated at your pick and it doesn't pan out. It's another to reach up and take a 4th rounder in the 2nd like Siavii and pretty much know the guy blows a minute after the pick.

If instead of taking Siavii and Wilson they had taken Karlos Dansy and Darnell Dockett and they didn't work out I'd have a different opinion. I'd be like they took the right guys just didn't work out. Most of the Chiefs horrible picks are them taking a guy several rounds before he should be picked.
Yeah, I figured you'd say that. And I just don't buy into that, never have. I don't view the draft like most fans though. I have a hard time buying into draft hype, I don't think most fans are educated enough to make a top 200 list and freak out when we "reach", like we supposedly did for Pollard, and Hali even. A good pick is a good pick, regardless of round. I think having the attitude that we drafted the right "value" but it didn't work out is a really bad idea... it wasn't good value, because the pick flopped. It doesn't matter what people had him ranked in the top 100 or whatever before the draft.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 04:28 AM
Yeah, I figured you'd say that. And I just don't buy into that, never have. I don't view the draft like most fans though. I have a hard time buying into draft hype, I don't think most fans are educated enough to make a top 200 list and freak out when we "reach", like we supposedly did for Pollard, and Hali even. A good pick is a good pick, regardless of round. I think having the attitude that we drafted the right "value" but it didn't work out is a really bad idea... it wasn't good value, because the pick flopped. It doesn't matter what people had him ranked in the top 100 or whatever before the draft.

That may sound good but once again drafting a player in the 2nd round, even if he's good, that you can get in the 4th is bad drafting. You've just blown getting 2 good players instead of one. You don't have to extensively follow and study the draft to know the general value on a player. I heavily follow it but it doesn't take alot to generally know where players are going to go.

tk13
08-28-2006, 04:35 AM
Yeah, but if a team has any sense at all, they can throw out false signals and hide their true intentions so you don't really know who is going where. Just like the Chiefs have pretty much every year. There was some speculation but most people had us taking a CB over Hali this year, or not Larry Johnson when we took him.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 04:41 AM
Yeah, but if a team has any sense at all, they can throw out false signals and hide their true intentions so you don't really know who is going where. Just like the Chiefs have pretty much every year. There was some speculation but most people had us taking a CB over Hali this year, or not Larry Johnson when we took him.

Hey I'll be honest, the Chiefs have hit on some guys I wouldn't have picked. I full admit I wouldn't have picked Larry Johnson that year. Sometimes you hit sometimes you don't but Troy Polamalu was my guy that year so....either or I guess.

donkhater
08-28-2006, 07:00 AM
As big of busts as Jenkins and blackledge were, I have always thought that Harvey (the Neck) Willimas was the dumbest draft pick EVER. To take another RB in the first round when Okoye and Word are playing well, healthy and still relatively young goes down as one of the biggest head sratchers of all-time.

Brian Jwziack (sp?) a Tackle out of West Virginia, I believe tops the bust list.

chagrin
08-28-2006, 07:02 AM
Mike Cloud was pretty good

Deberg_1990
08-28-2006, 07:11 AM
Really? You're blowing this way out of proportion. We've had some big flops, yes, but so does everybody else. In that time we've also drafted Larry Johnson, Kawika Mitchell, Derrick Johnson, and Jared Allen. That's four potential Pro Bowl caliber players. Key Fox is pushing for a starting spot. Samie Parker's turning into a starter, very solid for a 2nd day pick. Same with Svitek, possibly Kevin Sampson too. Got good value out of Jimmy Wilkerson. Colquitt's looking great. Great value out of the Dante Hall, Derrick Blaylock, Scott Fujita picks. And that doesn't even mention getting Trent Green, Willie Roaf, John Welbourn, and Patrick Surtain for draft picks. I don't think the Chiefs are the best team when it comes to the draft, but we've done some really positive things too. To act like it's some giant disaster that's indefensible is really overreacting. It's not even close.

Well said....but Vermeil will always be remembered for these picks:

Sims, Freeman, Siavii and Wilson....hard to defend any of those flops.

jidar
08-28-2006, 07:22 AM
How many times has someone come out and done a draft comparison on this site? Half a dozen? And every damned one of them shows us right about middle of the pack on our draft success, right where every other team is.
How does it normally go, 2 teams are slightly ahead, 2 teams are slightly behind, and the entire rest of the NFL is smack in the middle? I think so.

Yet we still get regulars in here every 3 weeks who say we're "WORST DRAFTARS EVAR!!!"
It's like these people are unable to retain information.

jspchief
08-28-2006, 07:39 AM
Thorpe was a risk/reward pick. We were taking the risk that he wouldn't ever return to form after that injury, with the potential reward that he would.

Personally, I'd like to hear what his problem is. He never gets on the field during pre-season games. So what's the deal?

Maybe instead of the 1000th article about how Sims realizes he's a bum, someone could write an article clueing us in on the race for the 4th WR spot.

JimNasium
08-28-2006, 07:52 AM
The reason why it makes me mad and I consider us below average is...the chiefs blow FIRST DAY picks all the time. They take massive reaches it's one thing to take a guy who's rated at your pick and it doesn't pan out. It's another to reach up and take a 4th rounder in the 2nd like Siavii and pretty much know the guy blows a minute after the pick.
As bad as that pick was and as invisible as Sasquatch has been so far the 2004 draft still had some bright spots.

3 93 Keyaron Fox OLB Georgia Tech
4 105 Samie Parker WR Oregon
4 126 Jared Allen DE Idaho State
6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

If Key Fox wrests the starting spot from Bell then you have four starters out of that draft.

chagrin
08-28-2006, 07:55 AM
As bad as that pick was and as invisible as Sasquatch has been so far the 2004 draft still had some bright spots.

3 93 Keyaron Fox OLB Georgia Tech
4 105 Samie Parker WR Oregon
4 126 Jared Allen DE Idaho State
6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

If Key Fox wrests the starting spot from Bell then you have four starters out of that draft.

Yeah, Samie is a real treat to watch, :p


queue jenny gump in 3, 2, 1...

Mecca
08-28-2006, 08:12 AM
As bad as that pick was and as invisible as Sasquatch has been so far the 2004 draft still had some bright spots.

3 93 Keyaron Fox OLB Georgia Tech
4 105 Samie Parker WR Oregon
4 126 Jared Allen DE Idaho State
6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

If Key Fox wrests the starting spot from Bell then you have four starters out of that draft.

It's an eh draft...if Fox was as good as some people seem to think he is he either should have been playing by now or the past coaching staff was really inept. Parker if we had the WR's we should have would be a slot guy and probably pretty good at that. McIntyre is crap....he's part of the huge corp of backup WR's who are horrible. As far as Sampson I have to see it before I believe he's good.

Jared Allen was a great pick....if they had taken the 2 guys I wanted instead of Siavii and Wilson in Dansby and Dockett, then it would be a really good draft.

jspchief
08-28-2006, 08:14 AM
It's an eh draft...if Fox was as good as some people seem to think he is he either should have been playing by now or the past coaching staff was really inept. Parker if we had the WR's we should have would be a slot guy and probably pretty good at that. McIntyre is crap....he's part of the huge corp of backup WR's who are horrible. As far as Sampson I have to see it before I believe he's good.

Jared Allen was a great pick....if they had taken the 2 guys I wanted instead of Siavii and Wilson in Dansby and Dockett, then it would be a really good draft.Keep in mind that Fox missed all of last year with an injury.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 08:19 AM
Keep in mind that Fox missed all of last year with an injury.

Ok I have a theory.....I'm curious how many people will agree with this. Does anyone else think Vermiel purposely took guys like Siavii and other project players on the first day...Julian Battle and numerous others. Because he was comfortable playing his veterans that he personally liked so much so he didn't care to give them competition and then could just say the young guys weren't ready.

That's something I always thought about, it took an act of god to get young players on the field under Vermiel.

jspchief
08-28-2006, 08:22 AM
Ok I have a theory.....I'm curious how many people will agree with this. Does anyone else think Vermiel purposely took guys like Siavii and other project players on the first day...Julian Battle and numerous others. Because he was comfortable playing his veterans that he personally liked so much so he didn't care to give them competition and then could just say the young guys weren't ready.

That's something I always thought about, it took an act of god to get young players on the field under Vermiel.I've said pretty much the same thing several times here on the planet.

I think Vermeil had an aversion to playing rookies, so when he drafted, he didn't consider their ability to contribute right away.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 08:26 AM
I've said pretty much the same thing several times here on the planet.

I think Vermeil had an aversion to playing rookies, so when he drafted, he didn't consider their ability to contribute right away.

That's just such a bad strategy. Because of that now our team is old, we have no depth and there are serious holes.

I think Vermiel was still in that 70s-80s mindset of a team stays together forever and he's gonna go with his veterans over young players. Just another reason why Vermiel irritated the crap out of me.

Chiefnj
08-28-2006, 08:41 AM
It's an eh draft....


If you get 4 starters out of a draft, it is MUCH better than an "eh draft".

Mecca
08-28-2006, 08:51 AM
If you get 4 starters out of a draft, it is MUCH better than an "eh draft".

Are they quality starters.........When you blow your first 2 picks I have a hard time rating it higher than a C+ even if the rest of it was above average.

Demonpenz
08-28-2006, 09:19 AM
what exactly has key fox done yet?

Mecca
08-28-2006, 09:20 AM
what exactly has key fox done yet?

Run around in preseason....

jspchief
08-28-2006, 09:21 AM
what exactly has key fox done yet?Nothing.

Personally I think he's going to take Bell's spot and be a solid LB. He'll be around the ball a lot, but IMO is a weak tackler. Kind of in the mold of Donnie Edwards.

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 09:24 AM
It's an eh draft...if Fox was as good as some people seem to think he is he either should have been playing by now or the past coaching staff was really inept. Parker if we had the WR's we should have would be a slot guy and probably pretty good at that. McIntyre is crap....he's part of the huge corp of backup WR's who are horrible. As far as Sampson I have to see it before I believe he's good.

Jared Allen was a great pick....if they had taken the 2 guys I wanted instead of Siavii and Wilson in Dansby and Dockett, then it would be a really good draft.

Key Fox was getting as much playing time as Bell last year until blowing out his knee.

Holding players accountable for CATASTROPHIC injuries is assinine, plain and simple...

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 09:26 AM
If you get 4 starters out of a draft, it is MUCH better than an "eh draft".

Doesn't matter if they are starters. They weren't drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, so they all suck.

Mecca
08-28-2006, 09:27 AM
Doesn't matter if they are starters. They weren't drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, so they all suck.

You guys missed the early part of the thread.....some of those guys are starting frankly because of other bad picks. Just because someone starts doesn't make him good. I don't think Parker starting is a huge accomplishment when I look at those WR's.

Demonpenz
08-28-2006, 09:29 AM
Nothing.

Personally I think he's going to take Bell's spot and be a solid LB. He'll be around the ball a lot, but IMO is a weak tackler. Kind of in the mold of Donnie Edwards.


pipe dream talking but hopefully bell returns to his steeler form and we can play some 3-4 or just use bell or fox keep people fresh

Demonpenz
08-28-2006, 09:31 AM
Maybe matt millen can replace carl next year.

keg in kc
08-28-2006, 09:33 AM
I don't particularly care why Parker's starting, whether it's because the guys behind him suck or because he's earned it or because the moons in the 5th house, the fact is that right now he looks confident and comfortable and I think he's primed for a big year if Green has any kind of pass protection. Hell, I think it's possible we could see a pair of 1000-yard receivers if he and EK both stay healthy. In the perfect world, Gonzo picks up the touchdown numbers and handles the short/middle of the field mid-range yardage, EK is what he's been for 3 years and Parker's a legit deep threat.

Wouldn't that be crazy...

Demonpenz
08-28-2006, 09:35 AM
Key Fox was getting as much playing time as Bell last year until blowing out his knee.

Holding players accountable for CATASTROPHIC injuries is assinine, plain and simple...


he didn't get bent under some linemen on the ground he made a cut and slipped and fell. Great athlete! ROFL

(s)

SNR
08-28-2006, 09:36 AM
Don't forget Benny Sapp as an undrafted free agent...

And as much as we give shit about this guy, Scanlon is a great special teams player. Again, an undrafted free agent.

We've had our fair share of hits in the backside of the draft, which is a lot more than some teams do.

Chiefnj
08-28-2006, 09:43 AM
What's the draft rationalization this year? Has the "Throw Vermeil Under the Bus 2006" campaign mantra carried over to the draft?

I get confused with this stuff. Up until last year the bad drafts were all King Carl's fault (going back to Blackledge). Now that Vermeil is gone, I see that a conspiracy has been uncovered where it was dasterdly Dick Vermeil calling all bad draft shots and not the innocent King. It seems that Dick was very happy with underachieving defensive veterans and purposefully drafted poorly so his band of merry underachievers could continue to, well, underachieve.

If it weren't for you meddlesome kids DV would have gotten away with it!

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 09:45 AM
You guys missed the early part of the thread.....some of those guys are starting frankly because of other bad picks. Just because someone starts doesn't make him good. I don't think Parker starting is a huge accomplishment when I look at those WR's.

Allen started because of an injury, but the only players to put up his sack totals over two years are a couple of guys named Smith and Thomas. Kevin Sampson WON the starting RT spot.

So basically you've cherry-picked Parker and poo-poo'd the whole draft with him.

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 09:46 AM
he didn't get bent under some linemen on the ground he made a cut and slipped and fell. Great athlete! ROFL

(s)

I sincerely hope you're kidding. The whole premise of your statement is dumb, without even recounting the weather conditions that night...

keg in kc
08-28-2006, 09:47 AM
I don't know that it's a big change from how a lot of people saw the drafts in the past. Many people, myself included, believe that Peterson has always given his head coaches a lot of power in both the draft and free agency. Marty was big in the draft room, Gun was big in the draft room and Vermeil was big in the draft room. I don't think it's ever been King Carl dropping players willy-nilly on his coaches and saying "good luck, this is what you get".

That's not to say he isn't ultimately responsible for the hits and misses, being the GM, but I think it's clear he's always given his coaches what they want. With one very notable exception in Larry Johnson.

That may be his weak point...he takes a guy like Junior Siavii because Gun wants him instead of going another direction, or a guy like Kris Wilson because Al Saunders thinks he's something.

Frankie
08-28-2006, 09:49 AM
Yeah but Siavii has to be the worst Chiefs draft pick in team history.
Cough... Trezelle..cough cough.. Jen...kins..cough.

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 09:54 AM
I don't know that it's a big change from how a lot of people saw the drafts in the past. Many people, myself included, believe that Peterson has always given his head coaches a lot of power in both the draft and free agency. Marty was big in the draft room, Gun was big in the draft room and Vermeil was big in the draft room. I don't think it's ever been King Carl dropping players willy-nilly on his coaches and saying "good luck, this is what you get".

That's not to say he isn't ultimately responsible for the hits and misses, being the GM, but I think it's clear he's always given his coaches what they want. With one very notable exception in Larry Johnson.

That may be his weak point...he takes a guy like Junior Siavii because Gun wants him instead of going another direction, or a guy like Kris Wilson because Al Saunders thinks he's something.

Yep. That's what I believe too.

It's been painfully evident for 16 years that we're FAR better on day 2 of the draft than on day 1. I think the reason for that is that the head coach/coordinators haven't done enough research, so on day 2 they allow the scouts to go to work. The one clear-cut case where Carl put his foot down and went with the scouts instead of the coaches, we landed Larry Johnson...

Combine that with Vermeil's loyalty to veteran players, like jspchief mentioned earlier, and you get a team that is stocked with old guys and projects and not really much in between...

Phobia
08-28-2006, 10:07 AM
I sincerely hope you're kidding. The whole premise of your statement is dumb, without even recounting the weather conditions that night...

You're new aren't you?

HemiEd
08-28-2006, 10:34 AM
What's the draft rationalization this year? Has the "Throw Vermeil Under the Bus 2006" campaign mantra carried over to the draft?

I get confused with this stuff. Up until last year the bad drafts were all King Carl's fault (going back to Blackledge). Now that Vermeil is gone, I see that a conspiracy has been uncovered where it was dasterdly Dick Vermeil calling all bad draft shots and not the innocent King. It seems that Dick was very happy with underachieving defensive veterans and purposefully drafted poorly so his band of merry underachievers could continue to, well, underachieve.

If it weren't for you meddlesome kids DV would have gotten away with it!

Yep, Dick was intentionally sabotaging this team for his own ego! ROFL

Chiefnj
08-28-2006, 10:42 AM
The other area tha I am confused with is the conflict between the argument that the drafts sucked and Vermeil didn't play young guys.

If the draft picks sucked, why would Vermeil play them? If Herm ends up cutting guys like Wilson and Siavii, does that confirm the fact that Vermeil smart for not playing them because a second head coach has confirmed that some players do in fact suck, or is DV still at fault for not playing them?

jspchief
08-28-2006, 10:49 AM
The other area tha I am confused with is the conflict between the argument that the drafts sucked and Vermeil didn't play young guys.

If the draft picks sucked, why would Vermeil play them? If Herm ends up cutting guys like Wilson and Siavii, does that confirm the fact that Vermeil smart for not playing them because a second head coach has confirmed that some players do in fact suck, or is DV still at fault for not playing them?This is just my opinion, but I feel that Vermeil drafted a lot of "projects" because he had little intention of giving rookies a chance to start. When going through criteria of potential draftees, I think "ability to contribute right away" was low on his list because he put such a high premium on veteran status/experience.

They admitted outright on guys like Siavii and Wilson that they were projects.

Drafting projects is a bad idea in general afaic, and doing it on a team that so clearly needed fast help on one side of the ball makes it even worse. So I'm not necessarily saying "Vermeil drafted crappy players" as much as Vermeil did a poor job targeting guys that might provide immediate help.

stevieray
08-28-2006, 10:51 AM
This is just my opinion, but I feel that Vermeil drafted a lot of "projects" because he had little intention of giving rookies a chance to start. When going through criteria of potential draftees, I think "ability to contribute right away" was low on his list because he put such a high premium on veteran status/experience.

They admitted outright on guys like Siavii and Wilson that they were projects.

Drafting projects is a bad idea in general afaic, and doing it on a team that so clearly needed fast help on one side of the ball makes it even worse. So I'm not necessarily saying "Vermeil drafted crappy players" as much as Vermeil did a poor job targeting guys that might provide immediate help.

I agree, we weren't in any postion to develop defensive players, like we were already set and just providing depth.

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 10:56 AM
You're new aren't you?

No.

DP is just horrible at sarcasm...

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 10:57 AM
This is just my opinion, but I feel that Vermeil drafted a lot of "projects" because he had little intention of giving rookies a chance to start. When going through criteria of potential draftees, I think "ability to contribute right away" was low on his list because he put such a high premium on veteran status/experience.

They admitted outright on guys like Siavii and Wilson that they were projects.

Drafting projects is a bad idea in general afaic, and doing it on a team that so clearly needed fast help on one side of the ball makes it even worse. So I'm not necessarily saying "Vermeil drafted crappy players" as much as Vermeil did a poor job targeting guys that might provide immediate help.

Exactly.

If Herm ends up cutting guys like Wilson and Siavii, does that confirm the fact that Vermeil smart for not playing them because a second head coach has confirmed that some players do in fact suck, or is DV still at fault for not playing them?

If Herm ends up cutting them, all it means is that the team failed to develop these "projects". The team INCLUDES Herm.

Phobia
08-28-2006, 10:58 AM
He's not "horrible". He's intentionally over-the-top in an effort to poke fun at some of our members who post similarly but are being serious.

htismaqe
08-28-2006, 11:08 AM
He's not "horrible". He's intentionally over-the-top in an effort to poke fun at some of our members who post similarly but are being serious.

No, he's horrible.

Have you ever read his draft site?

Pitt Gorilla
08-28-2006, 11:18 AM
Yeah but Siavii has to be the worst Chiefs draft pick in team history.You're joking, right? Consider Trezelle Jenkins, Ethan Horton (for us), and Todd Blackledge.

Phobia
08-28-2006, 11:24 AM
You're joking, right? Consider Trezelle Jenkins, Ethan Horton (for us), and Todd Blackledge.
What about spending an early 1st round draft pick on a guy who elects to play football in another league?

Gale Sayers was possibly our worst draft pick in team history.

bsp4444
08-28-2006, 11:44 AM
I don't know who is responsible for which draft failure, but I can never forgive Vermeil for playing Blaylock over Larry Johnson and I find it hard to believe that Jared Allen almost set the Chiefs rookie record for sacks and he wasn't even starting until halfway through the season. That's a total lack of recognition of talent in my opinion.

ChiefsCountry
08-28-2006, 12:45 PM
The Chiefs have a pretty good scouting department. We are probally the best in the league at developing players from other leagues (AFL, NFLE, CFL) that is from Carl's past in the USFL.

Another thing we need to stay away from Florida State players. Other than Vanover, the rest have been sh*t.