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View Full Version : Chiefs ready to give Gonzo a new mega contract


Mr. Laz
08-29-2006, 11:13 AM
that will "Dwarf the contract of any of the other TE's"


according to NFL guy(dan pompei??) from Cold Pizza.


contract expected to happen the last couple of days before the regular season starts.

Halfcan
08-29-2006, 11:15 AM
TG has lost a step.

BigChiefFan
08-29-2006, 11:16 AM
I saw Tom Condon on T.V. yesterday. He said they we're working on getting a deal done for Tony G. I think Tony Gonzales is great, but I'm concerned with the sound of the price tag.

Hoover
08-29-2006, 11:20 AM
I love Tony, but this contract better not kill us down the road.

chiefsfan1963
08-29-2006, 11:20 AM
hopefully we will leave some dollars for Kennison. there goes our cap room.

John_Wayne
08-29-2006, 11:23 AM
Gonzo will have a career year this season.

Halfcan
08-29-2006, 11:23 AM
hopefully we will leave some dollars for Kennison. there goes our cap room.


Trent is way underpaid also-I would rather give the deal to LJ. Tall Basketball Playing TE's seem common nowdays.

Mr. Laz
08-29-2006, 11:23 AM
a team should always think twice ... three times, about giving a 30+ year old player a mega contract.

Iowanian
08-29-2006, 11:23 AM
Count me in with the crowd that thinks Gonzo is a great TE, but considering his age, and value of the TE position as a whole, I'd rather not see him with a Ginormous contract.

Saulbadguy
08-29-2006, 11:24 AM
Count me in with the crowd that thinks Gonzo is a great TE, but considering his age, and value of the TE position as a whole, I'd rather not see him with a Ginormous contract.
Same here. It will be nice to see him retire as a Chief, but that's about it.

vailpass
08-29-2006, 11:27 AM
Let him discover his worth on the open market; then compensate him accordingly.
As great a TE as he is, as much as he added to the game, there are several young TEs in the league whose value in today's NFL market is grater than Gonzo's. 30 year old players have it tough in the "what have you done for me lately" league.

Phobia
08-29-2006, 11:28 AM
Carl really should have drafted a TE to show TG he's expendable. Carl has lost his burst.

PastorMikH
08-29-2006, 11:29 AM
Count me in with the crowd that thinks Gonzo is a great TE, but considering his age, and value of the TE position as a whole, I'd rather not see him with a Ginormous contract.



Ditto

Chiefnj
08-29-2006, 11:33 AM
I'm in Iowanian's camp - big contracts to a TE over the age of 30 is kind of risky.

sedated
08-29-2006, 11:35 AM
its not like he's gonna get Peyton Manning money.

I'm all for signing him, he's a HOF'er and a weapon that has a few years left

Hog Farmer
08-29-2006, 11:37 AM
It will be interesting to see how this contract compares to Vernon Davis's.

CHENZ A!
08-29-2006, 11:37 AM
I say pay him, he deserves it. Also with Shields(next yr) and Roaf retiring, also dumping Ryan Simms and Erik Hicks. We should have some money to spend the next couple seasons.

cdcox
08-29-2006, 11:42 AM
I doubt seriously that Carl Peterson is going to sign a stupid deal for a player already on the roster. He made that mistake with Dan Willimas, against his better judgement (holdout), but hasn't repeated it. He sometimes gets burned on signing free agents to big contracts and they turn out not to be productive, but that is true for all GMs. Gonzo's contract will be structured very reasonabley with respect to the cap, assuming that Gozo has another 4 seasons as an upper-echelon starter (not best in leage).

This is another situation where it is useful to distinguish between the cap and Lamar's cash. You can make a good cap deal, if you are not worried about shelling out the cash up front. Based on how quietly this negotiation has gone, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lamar loosened the purse strings a bit to show appreciation to a player who has been productive over a long period of time. Lamar is very loyal and may have fallen in love with the idea of Gonzo retiring as a Chief. If Lamar forks over the cash, even a big deal may not hurt us much with respect to the cap.

jAZ
08-29-2006, 11:45 AM
It's all about the signing bonus. The total contract amount can "Dwarf the contract of any of the other TE's" by $1 billion and still be very cap friendly.

I hope TG gets a 3 year, $300 billion dollar contract just as long as his SB is about $10 million.

Wile_E_Coyote
08-29-2006, 11:47 AM
with the cap growing, now is the time to make TG the highest paid(long contract). Set that standard high for future tightends to hold out for

StcChief
08-29-2006, 11:47 AM
Back load it to help the cap. Chiefs ever in cap hell????
Haven't seen it.

Scaga
08-29-2006, 11:48 AM
As long as it doesn't get stoooooopid...I'm all for signing him.
IF we didn't have him to get the double teams he draws (because he's Tony) our receiving corps would really show how bad they are.

JMO.

Tuckdaddy
08-29-2006, 11:57 AM
Gonzo must be kept and LJ will get his payday probably during the season or right after it's over.

LJ will be expensive.

JBucc
08-29-2006, 12:00 PM
Count me in with the crowd that thinks Gonzo is a great TE, but considering his age, and value of the TE position as a whole, I'd rather not see him with a Ginormous contract.
And Me. Money like that would be better spend on a good WR or DT.

SNR
08-29-2006, 12:15 PM
Let him discover his worth on the open market; then compensate him accordingly.
As great a TE as he is, as much as he added to the game, there are several young TEs in the league whose value in today's NFL market is grater than Gonzo's. 30 year old players have it tough in the "what have you done for me lately" league.Dunno about that. Players like Heap and Shockey are close in value, but not exceeding Gonzo... yet.

A guy like Gates, however, has already exceeded Gonzo's value. I can't name another TE in the league like Gates, though

ncognito
08-29-2006, 12:19 PM
Carl really should have drafted a TE to show TG he's expendable. Carl has lost his burst.

He did, but we can't discuss him.

tk13
08-29-2006, 12:23 PM
Hopefully Gonzalez has his foot injury behind him, and guys like Gates are now the ones getting mugged all the time. I still think Gonzo has to put up with more hands-on stuff than anybody.

jspchief
08-29-2006, 12:40 PM
IMO, the ideal contract would give him a huge roster bonus this year. We supposedly have 12 million in cap space, use up about 8 million of that space on Tony's new contract. That way we're not carrying the burden of an ammortized bonus for the length of the deal.

el borracho
08-29-2006, 01:04 PM
IMO, the ideal contract would give him a huge roster bonus this year. We supposedly have 12 million in cap space, use up about 8 million of that space on Tony's new contract. That way we're not carrying the burden of an ammortized bonus for the length of the deal.
:clap:

ncognito
08-29-2006, 01:07 PM
IMO, the ideal contract would give him a huge roster bonus this year. We supposedly have 12 million in cap space, use up about 8 million of that space on Tony's new contract. That way we're not carrying the burden of an ammortized bonus for the length of the deal.

Mr. Flopnuts
08-29-2006, 01:16 PM
IMO, the ideal contract would give him a huge roster bonus this year. We supposedly have 12 million in cap space, use up about 8 million of that space on Tony's new contract. That way we're not carrying the burden of an ammortized bonus for the length of the deal.


This sounds good. The guy deserves it. The fact that he wants to retire with the team he started with even though we haven't won a friggin playoff game the entire time he's been here speaks leaps and bounds for me. If this is how we do it, let's break the mold and make sure our superstar doesn't spend his twilight with a division rival.

Chiefnj
08-29-2006, 01:29 PM
Dunno about that. Players like Heap and Shockey are close in value, but not exceeding Gonzo... yet.

A guy like Gates, however, has already exceeded Gonzo's value. I can't name another TE in the league like Gates, though

Witten and Cooley put up some good numbers last year and are on the rise. Crumpler is the most valuable player to the Falcons because without him Vick would look even worse at QB than he is.

Tony is still the best or tied as the best TE in the league. It's nice to reward him, but he's at an age where 95% of NFL athletes start to slow down and who knows how he's going to be used in Herm's new system.

Brock
08-29-2006, 01:34 PM
Likely to be a stroke of the ego with little actual substance involved.

Valiant
08-29-2006, 01:45 PM
What???

The guy had a down year last year and still had 900yards and people want to write him off??? It is not his fault they did not throw his way in the endzone, hell they even said this year saunders gameplanned it this way... The guy deserves the payraise for his loyality and years here, he is still a top two TE in the league, he will still be able to play at that level for 4-5 years given his position and health...



Also, with the cap going up each year, by the time the other TE's want to get paid and make more then TonyG it will effect them more then us right now with cap numbers... If TonyG gets paid the most, hopefully Gates will want double and hurt the Chargers in the long run...

vailpass
08-29-2006, 01:53 PM
Dunno about that. Players like Heap and Shockey are close in value, but not exceeding Gonzo... yet.

A guy like Gates, however, has already exceeded Gonzo's value. I can't name another TE in the league like Gates, though

IMHO Antonio Gates, Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Jason Witten, Vernon Davis, and possibly Kellen Winslow are names to consider in that conversation.

patteeu
08-29-2006, 02:02 PM
IMO, the ideal contract would give him a huge roster bonus this year. We supposedly have 12 million in cap space, use up about 8 million of that space on Tony's new contract. That way we're not carrying the burden of an ammortized bonus for the length of the deal.

Add to that a really big salary in the final year (a payment he will never receive) so that Tony and his agent can boast about their bank-breaking deal without actually damaging the cap.

patteeu
08-29-2006, 02:07 PM
With Antonio Gates off the board, I took Jeremy Shockey over TG in my fantasy draft last night. I hope that my gut-level skepticism about TG as an effective red zone threat is offbase. Maybe the new coaching regime will be able to get the refs off of TG's back. :shrug:

cdcox
08-29-2006, 02:11 PM
IMHO Antonio Gates, Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Jason Witten, Vernon Davis, and possibly Kellen Winslow are names to consider in that conversation.

Right now Gates is the elite TE in the league. He has approximately equaled Gonzo's best years each of the last two years.

Heap and Shockey's best years are on par with TG average years. Over the next 3 years I'd expect their production to be about equal with Gonzos.

Witten is a notch below. Still one of the leagues best TEs, but whether he can raise his game to that level remains to be seen.

Davis hasn't played a down and Winslow has played 2 games in two seasons. They aren't even in the conversation yet.

Mr. Laz
08-29-2006, 02:26 PM
people want to write him off???
and who said that, Mr Frodo?

jspchief
08-29-2006, 02:36 PM
IMHO Antonio Gates, Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Jason Witten, Vernon Davis, and possibly Kellen Winslow are names to consider in that conversation.Winslow has played in 1 1/2 games in his career and Davis hasn't played a regular season snap.

And you rank them ahead of Gonzo?

This coming from the guy that claims Larry Johnson hasn't proven anything yet?

You're a moron or a hypocrite... or likely both.

HemiEd
08-29-2006, 02:37 PM
Carl really should have drafted a TE to show TG he's expendable. Carl has lost his burst.

Kris Wilson is just waiting to be launched.

vailpass
08-29-2006, 02:39 PM
Right now Gates is the elite TE in the league. He has approximately equaled Gonzo's best years each of the last two years.

Heap and Shockey's best years are on par with TG average years. Over the next 3 years I'd expect their production to be about equal with Gonzos.

Witten is a notch below. Still one of the leagues best TEs, but whether he can raise his game to that level remains to be seen.

Davis hasn't played a down and Winslow has played 2 games in two seasons. They aren't even in the conversation yet.

I was referring to the amount of $ they could command on the open market relative to TG. Davis and Winslow, along with the others, are certainly in that conversation.

vailpass
08-29-2006, 02:44 PM
Winslow has played in 1 1/2 games in his career and Davis hasn't played a regular season snap.

And you rank them ahead of Gonzo?

This coming from the guy that claims Larry Johnson hasn't proven anything yet?

You're a moron or a hypocrite... or likely both.

No need for name calling. I wasn't commenting on who is the better player but on what their market position is relative to Gonzo. Your statement that they are young is exactly why they are worth more than a 30+ year old TE, even one of TG's stature.

FTR I said, and still say, LJ has not proven he can excel over the course of a full season as a starter. He will get that chance this year and by the end of the season this question will have been answered for us.

Why so grouchy? Is Croyle still spurning your man-love advances? LMAO

Halfcan
08-29-2006, 03:05 PM
IMHO Antonio Gates, Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Jason Witten, Vernon Davis, and possibly Kellen Winslow are names to consider in that conversation.

Winslow has done nothing but jackass around on a motorcycle and then declare he is the best in the world.

Shockey is a bigmouth with terrible hands.

Gates-is good BBQ but an overrated TE that got away with a lot of pushoffs. Hell TG has to run down the field with the defenders on him like a backpack, while Gates gets to push the guy out of the way to catch the ball.

Heap is a dumbass. :whackit:

Witten is a dumbass. :whackit:

Its settled TG is the Greatest!!

htismaqe
08-29-2006, 03:10 PM
Sorry, vail. You've crossed the threshold into moron-dom.

irishjayhawk
08-29-2006, 03:12 PM
Carl really should have drafted a TE to show TG he's expendable. Carl has lost his burst.

Carl had a burst? :hmmm:

boogblaster
08-29-2006, 03:22 PM
Still one of the best in the business.. give him a good chunk..leave the rest for other talents..BOOG....

Rausch
08-29-2006, 03:30 PM
And Me. Money like that would be better spend on a good WR or DT.

So don't spend it on a HOF type TE, spend it on a solid DT or WR that's not available?...

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/3e/180px-Carlos_Mencia.jpg

keg in kc
08-29-2006, 03:37 PM
Hard to reply to such a vague description. "Mega contract". What's that, exactly? TE is one of the lowest-paid positions, "dwarfing" other TEs doesn't necessarily mean much.

And the romantic part of my mind thinks it would be nice to see a hall-of-fame calibre player stay with one team for his entire career.

vailpass
08-29-2006, 03:46 PM
QUOTE=htismaqe]Sorry, vail. You've crossed the threshold into moron-dom.[/QUOTE]


htis,

SNR posted this in regard to Tony G's. market value:
Dunno about that. Players like Heap and Shockey are close in value, but not exceeding Gonzo... yet.

A guy like Gates, however, has already exceeded Gonzo's value. I can't name another TE in the league like Gates, though

To which I responded that the following TE's are in the same market value:

IMHO Antonio Gates, Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Jason Witten, Vernon Davis, and possibly Kellen Winslow are names to consider in that conversation.

Market value= amount of $ other teams would pay for your services.
Younger players with more upside get paid much more $$ in the NFL than older players who are getting near the end of their prime.

Do you feel that these players are not on the same market level as a 30+ year old Gonzalez?

Does this statement really warrant your calling me a moron?

Adept Havelock
08-29-2006, 03:52 PM
Does this statement really warrant your calling me a moron?

Not at all. I believe it's your status as a Bronco fan that warrants it. :p

FWIW- I think your point about Market value is pretty solid. I don't want to give a bunch of cash to a TE on the down side of 30, unless it can be made very cap friendly for the later years.

Rausch
08-29-2006, 03:54 PM
QUOTE=htismaqe]Do you feel that these players are not on the same market level as a 30+ year old Gonzalez?

Does this statement really warrant your calling me a moron?

Yes.

Gates is a stud, and the future dominant TE if he has any kind of QB throwing to him.

Heap seems to be constantly banged up and underachieving.

Shockey = WAY overrated and underachieving.

Winslow and Davis have accomplished NOTHING at the NFL level. Not a thing.

ONE of the guys on your list deserves more money than Gonzo...

vailpass
08-29-2006, 04:01 PM
Yes.

Gates is a stud, and the future dominant TE if he has any kind of QB throwing to him.

Heap seems to be constantly banged up and underachieving.

Shockey = WAY overrated and underachieving.

Winslow and Davis have accomplished NOTHING at the NFL level. Not a thing.

ONE of the guys on your list deserves more money than Gonzo...

Leave the emotion out of it, I'm discussing fact. This is not about who you like better, it is about the business aspect of the NFL. Who you think deserves more money is irrelevant.

All of the players I mentioned would command equal or greater value on the open market than TG due to age and upside. Some are already making more than TG. You scoff at the fact I mention Vernon Davis as being on market par eith TG? Go look up his contract.

vailpass
08-29-2006, 04:02 PM
Not at all. I believe it's your status as a Bronco fan that warrants it. :p

FWIW- I think your point about Market value is pretty solid. I don't want to give a bunch of cash to a TE on the down side of 30, unless it can be made very cap friendly for the later years.

Okay, now that I can live with.

Rausch
08-29-2006, 04:20 PM
Leave the emotion out of it, I'm discussing fact. This is not about who you like better, it is about the business aspect of the NFL. Who you think deserves more money is irrelevant.

All of the players I mentioned would command equal or greater value on the open market than TG due to age and upside.

No, they wouldn't.

You can't accomplish nothing and expect to get paid like a HOF player, and that's what you're suggesting.

Two of the guys on your list have never done a thing in the NFL. Winslow has done nothing but hurt his value (stupid comments, stupid decisions, and injuries) and would likely be the LOWEST paid on that list.

Emotion has nothing to do with it. Gates is the best TE in the league right now. That's not being a homer.

Talent without production is useless. Shockey has NEVER had 75 catches or 900 yards. Gonzo has had FIVE 900 yard seasons and 4 times been over 75 catches in a season. Shockey has NEVER had a season, in his whole career, as good as any of the 5 Gonzo has had.

Heap has NEVER (in 5 years) been over 900 yards and only once over 70 catches.

NONE of the players you've listed have production that comes even close to Gonzo outside of Gates...

vailpass
08-29-2006, 04:42 PM
No, they wouldn't.

You can't accomplish nothing and expect to get paid like a HOF player, and that's what you're suggesting.

Two of the guys on your list have never done a thing in the NFL. Winslow has done nothing but hurt his value (stupid comments, stupid decisions, and injuries) and would likely be the LOWEST paid on that list.

Emotion has nothing to do with it. Gates is the best TE in the league right now. That's not being a homer.

Talent without production is useless. Shockey has NEVER had 75 catches or 900 yards. Gonzo has had FIVE 900 yard seasons and 4 times been over 75 catches in a season. Shockey has NEVER had a season, in his whole career, as good as any of the 5 Gonzo has had.

Heap has NEVER (in 5 years) been over 900 yards and only once over 70 catches.

NONE of the players you've listed have production that comes even close to Gonzo outside of Gates...

Again, you offer opinion based on your preference for a particular player.
Market value does not take into account fan opinion or a sentimental inclination to reward someone you like. This is a "what have you done for me lately" league where young guys rule.

Gonzalez is 30-something and near or possibly at the end of his prime. The young stud TEs are the new guard. They have many more years left in their prime and therefore more upside thus a strong market value.

I am not commenting on who is the first, second, third, etc. best (how can you define "best"?) TE in the league but on what contract $ amount they command.
Vernon Davis has never played a down. Go look up his contract. Do you think there is a team in the league that would give TG that same contract?

Bob Dole
08-29-2006, 05:01 PM
And the romantic part of my mind thinks it would be nice to see a hall-of-fame calibre player stay with one team for his entire career.

Heretic.

doomy3
08-29-2006, 05:15 PM
No, they wouldn't.

You can't accomplish nothing and expect to get paid like a HOF player, and that's what you're suggesting.

Two of the guys on your list have never done a thing in the NFL. Winslow has done nothing but hurt his value (stupid comments, stupid decisions, and injuries) and would likely be the LOWEST paid on that list.

Emotion has nothing to do with it. Gates is the best TE in the league right now. That's not being a homer.

Talent without production is useless. Shockey has NEVER had 75 catches or 900 yards. Gonzo has had FIVE 900 yard seasons and 4 times been over 75 catches in a season. Shockey has NEVER had a season, in his whole career, as good as any of the 5 Gonzo has had.

Heap has NEVER (in 5 years) been over 900 yards and only once over 70 catches.

NONE of the players you've listed have production that comes even close to Gonzo outside of Gates...


While I understand your point, I also see vail's. No one is arguing that Tony G. isn't a HOF tight end, and that the others are. The fact is, he is on the downside of his career, and owners in the NFL would pay bigger dollars to the younger TEs that still have the prime years ahead of them. I don't know if any of the mentioned will ever be as good as Tony was in his prime, but they COULD. You are right to say that some of these on the list have never done anything, but the potential is most certainly there.

That's like trying to argue that Brett Favre is worth more money than Eli Manning. Sure, Favre is a HOF QB and in comparison Eli has done nothing, but the money still most definitely would fall in Eli's lap as it should. Same thing with Tony G. and these other guys.

KCSupersized
08-29-2006, 05:40 PM
I say give him the money. I would love to see him retire as a Chief. In the NFL it is rare that a player of TG's caliber is loyal to 1 team.

the Talking Can
08-29-2006, 06:00 PM
I doubt seriously that Carl Peterson is going to sign a stupid deal for a player already on the roster. He made that mistake with Dan Willimas, against his better judgement (holdout), but hasn't repeated it. He sometimes gets burned on signing free agents to big contracts and they turn out not to be productive, but that is true for all GMs. Gonzo's contract will be structured very reasonabley with respect to the cap, assuming that Gozo has another 4 seasons as an upper-echelon starter (not best in leage).

This is another situation where it is useful to distinguish between the cap and Lamar's cash. You can make a good cap deal, if you are not worried about shelling out the cash up front. Based on how quietly this negotiation has gone, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lamar loosened the purse strings a bit to show appreciation to a player who has been productive over a long period of time. Lamar is very loyal and may have fallen in love with the idea of Gonzo retiring as a Chief. If Lamar forks over the cash, even a big deal may not hurt us much with respect to the cap.

nice post, I agree....Tony can be productive at TE for 4-5 more years...he's a hall of famer and Chief for life...it's Lamars bonus money, give it to him...and then wait to see how GINORMOUS LJ's contract is...

even with foot problems Tony has played well...and he's become an integral part of the run game as well...

Raiderhader
08-29-2006, 06:37 PM
Trent is way underpaid also-I would rather give the deal to LJ. Tall Basketball Playing TE's seem common nowdays.


Yes, but how many of them have been as productive as TG for as long? Most of the big name TEs in the league today are overrated. Shockey and Heap can't hold Gonzo's jock. Gates is the only one who has shown the potential to live up to the standard, and maybe even surpass it, that TG has set. But he has only been in the league for a couple of years, so the jury is still out.

Raiderhader
08-29-2006, 06:39 PM
Again, you offer opinion based on your preference for a particular player.
Market value does not take into account fan opinion or a sentimental inclination to reward someone you like. This is a "what have you done for me lately" league where young guys rule.

Gonzalez is 30-something and near or possibly at the end of his prime. The young stud TEs are the new guard. They have many more years left in their prime and therefore more upside thus a strong market value.

I am not commenting on who is the first, second, third, etc. best (how can you define "best"?) TE in the league but on what contract $ amount they command.
Vernon Davis has never played a down. Go look up his contract. Do you think there is a team in the league that would give TG that same contract?


Did you fail to read the thread starter?

CoMoChief
08-29-2006, 07:14 PM
a team should always think twice ... three times, about giving a 30+ year old player a mega contract.

Tony G seemed to lost a step because he was constantly thrown into blocking schemes when Roaf was hurt and we didnt need to go to him that often with LJ going on his tear thru the NFL like he did. He's still the 2nd best in the NFL and can still create matchup problems for anyone in the NFL. Shannon Sharpe was still kicking the shit out of us after he turned 30.

Mecca
08-29-2006, 08:12 PM
Leave the emotion out of it, I'm discussing fact. This is not about who you like better, it is about the business aspect of the NFL. Who you think deserves more money is irrelevant.

All of the players I mentioned would command equal or greater value on the open market than TG due to age and upside. Some are already making more than TG. You scoff at the fact I mention Vernon Davis as being on market par eith TG? Go look up his contract.

I agree with your points especially on Davis. A player in his early 20's with the physical tools Davis has would command more than than Tony Gonzalez who's passing 30. No matter what he's accomplished he's aging and Davis has physical tools no TE has ever had before.

chiefs4me
08-29-2006, 08:30 PM
a team should always think twice ... three times, about giving a 30+ year old player a mega contract.








give him the money and give him the *** **** ball this year..:harumph:

kcfan88
08-29-2006, 08:59 PM
Winslow has done nothing but jackass around on a motorcycle and then declare he is the best in the world.

Shockey is a bigmouth with terrible hands.

Gates-is good BBQ but an overrated TE that got away with a lot of pushoffs. Hell TG has to run down the field with the defenders on him like a backpack, while Gates gets to push the guy out of the way to catch the ball.

Heap is a dumbass. :whackit:

Witten is a dumbass. :whackit:

Its settled TG is the Greatest!!

Amen brother!...pay the man!