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View Full Version : Tired of hearing all this "run the football" crap


B_Ambuehl
08-30-2006, 01:03 PM
He's been hinting at this for months and months now and I've dealt with it but after reading this, "Herm wants 9000 carries" crap you'd think this football team finished dead last in the NFL in rushing the last 5 years and I'm tired of hearing it.

There's a difference between running the football and running the football effecitvely. Running the football effectively is what this football team has done the last 5 years averaging ~5 yds per carry. Ditto for a team like Seattle. Anybody can take an offense out on the field and avg. 2.5 yds per carry and run 3 and out each possession and punt 10 times a game. That's not far from what he did with the Jets at times.

Parcells, Gruden, Marty, Herm, Billik.......All these coaches wanna run the football....and most of them do more punting of the football than moving of the football. The only one who does what he says consistently is Cowher. So, he wants what, 580 carries for the season. 12 three and outs per game over 16 games will do it.

DMAC
08-30-2006, 01:04 PM
Having a bad day?

mcan
08-30-2006, 01:14 PM
I'm totally with you here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how we've moved the ball so effectively since 2001... You look at the tape. You look at the stats. You look at our O-Line. You look at our quarterback. You look at our TE.

Then you consider that we had an aggressive and SMART offensive coordinator with a philosophy that whatever you have to do to move the ball the farthest you can on each play, is what you do. If it's 2nd and long and the defense brings out 7 DBs, then the draw is the play with the highest average expected yards. If the defense is having trouble with something, you shift until they leave themselves exposed there, and take advantage... If we're running the ball at will, we just don't pass that day (Falcons game two years ago).

I'm hoping that Herm's addiction to ball control offenses doesn't negate this fundamental element to our offense. If we're down by 21 points late in the 3rd quarter and we're still trying to fit in our quota of 30 carries per game, I'm gonna ask for his head on a pike!

Moooo
08-30-2006, 01:24 PM
He's been hinting at this for months and months now and I've dealt with it but after reading this, "Herm wants 9000 carries" crap you'd think this football team finished dead last in the NFL in rushing the last 5 years and I'm tired of hearing it.

There's a difference between running the football and running the football effecitvely. Running the football effectively is what this football team has done the last 5 years averaging ~5 yds per carry. Ditto for a team like Seattle. Anybody can take an offense out on the field and avg. 2.5 yds per carry and run 3 and out each possession and punt 10 times a game. That's not far from what he did with the Jets at times.

Parcells, Gruden, Marty, Herm, Billik.......All these coaches wanna run the football....and most of them do more punting of the football than moving of the football. The only one who does what he says consistently is Cowher. So, he wants what, 580 carries for the season. 12 three and outs per game over 16 games will do it.

How many of these teams have been in the playoffs in the last 3 years? I don't know the answer and am too lazy to look it up.

Moooo

Mecca
08-30-2006, 01:31 PM
How many of these teams have been in the playoffs in the last 3 years? I don't know the answer and am too lazy to look it up.

Moooo

Those teams also all have much better defenses than we do......this defense better improve drastically if we're gonna play like those teams.

Moooo
08-30-2006, 01:40 PM
Those teams also all have much better defenses than we do......this defense better improve drastically if we're gonna play like those teams.

I could be wrong, but our defense will get better when they're on the field hopefully up to 8 minutes less.

I could be horribly wrong, though. :)

Moooo

jspchief
08-30-2006, 01:40 PM
How many of these teams have been in the playoffs in the last 3 years? I don't know the answer and am too lazy to look it up.

Moooo3 of them have won Superbowls. Although I don't think Gruden fits in that category, and Billick probably doesn't either.

What I'm curious about is how our running game is suddenly going to morph into 2.5 yards per carry. Do you think the coach is telling our RBs to fall down after 3 yards? Why is it suddenly automatically ineffective to run the ball a lot?

Look, as soon as we have a game where we bang our heads against a wall trying to run unsuccessfully, I'll be first in line to complain. But until it happens, you're crying over milk that hasn't even been taken from the cow, let alone spilt.

This is just another excuse to piss and moan over the loss of Jesus Saunders.

Mecca
08-30-2006, 01:44 PM
I don't have a problem with the change, those teams have all be more successful than this one has with the big offense. Problem is this is a transition year so it might not be a great thing this year until the defense is up to snuff.

B_Ambuehl
08-30-2006, 02:05 PM
What I'm curious about is how our running game is suddenly going to morph into 2.5 yards per carry. Do you think the coach is telling our RBs to fall down after 3 yards? Why is it suddenly automatically ineffective to run the ball a lot?

The reason it's been effective is the same reason it's been effective in Seattle and the same reason S.F. back with Bill Walsh and George Seifert would finish near the top in rushing. The same reason Emmitt Smith ran for all those yards. The passing game opens up the field.

A good line helps too but that's not the only thing....baltimore has a good line but can't run the football to save their life. If everybody knows you're gonna run, it becomes harder to run. Coaches like Marty, Herm, and Cowher will continue to pound the ball for 1.5 yds/carry regardless of the outcome. Occassionally it works out. We will see :) Right now I just don't expect this team to avg. 4 yds/carry with the vibes that Herm is giving off.

FringeNC
08-30-2006, 02:07 PM
The Chiefs were near the top of the league in TOP. The TOP argument is sometimes used to argue that a quick-scoring offense can be a bad thing for the defense. It doesn't apply to the us, though, so I fail to see the connection of why a change in offense is necessary to improve the defense.

I don't really care how much we run the ball if we remain unpredictable, but I fear Herm is one of those "establish the run" type of guys rather than exploit mismatches type of guys.

StcChief
08-30-2006, 02:09 PM
I'm for exploiting the D weakness on any team,any time.

You didn't see other D ignoring Black when Roaf was out.

B_Ambuehl
08-30-2006, 02:31 PM
The Chiefs were near the top of the league in TOP. The TOP argument is sometimes used to argue that a quick-scoring offense can be a bad thing for the defense.

Yeah that's another thing he's talked a lot about that's getting old.

keg in kc
08-30-2006, 02:39 PM
It's not about "running the ball". It's about holding a lead. It's about converting 3rd downs in key situations late in games. We'll still pass. We'll still attack. The difference is that we're looking to be more effective in the clutch, something the old regime talked about having problems with as much as the new one does. Saunders talked about it for years in interviews, wanting to be more effective when the game's on the line.

Not only do we want to win blowouts, we want to be able to beat quality teams in close games by holding onto the ball and running out the clock. It's about situational play, and being able to move the chains when they know what's coming. It's about being able to line up and knock the other guy on his ass when you have to. The offense has been about finesse. It still needs to be about finesse, but it needs attitude, too.

morphius
08-30-2006, 03:07 PM
It's not about "running the ball". It's about holding a lead. It's about converting 3rd downs in key situations late in games. We'll still pass. We'll still attack. The difference is that we're looking to be more effective in the clutch, something the old regime talked about having problems with as much as the new one does. Saunders talked about it for years in interviews, wanting to be more effective when the game's on the line.

Not only do we want to win blowouts, we want to be able to beat quality teams in close games by holding onto the ball and running out the clock. It's about situational play, and being able to move the chains when they know what's coming. It's about being able to line up and knock the other guy on his ass when you have to. The offense has been about finesse. It still needs to be about finesse, but it needs attitude, too.
Of course I don't think you get the number of rushing TD's that we do without be tough. I agree, and hope you are right, in a lot of what you are saying.

If a team has a weakness, or you have a mismatch you still have to go after it.

Calcountry
08-30-2006, 03:21 PM
I'm totally with you here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how we've moved the ball so effectively since 2001... You look at the tape. You look at the stats. You look at our O-Line. You look at our quarterback. You look at our TE.

Then you consider that we had an aggressive and SMART offensive coordinator with a philosophy that whatever you have to do to move the ball the farthest you can on each play, is what you do. If it's 2nd and long and the defense brings out 7 DBs, then the draw is the play with the highest average expected yards. If the defense is having trouble with something, you shift until they leave themselves exposed there, and take advantage... If we're running the ball at will, we just don't pass that day (Falcons game two years ago).

I'm hoping that Herm's addiction to ball control offenses doesn't negate this fundamental element to our offense. If we're down by 21 points late in the 3rd quarter and we're still trying to fit in our quota of 30 carries per game, I'm gonna ask for his head on a pike!Do you think Herm is smart enough to telegraph run in the pre season as a feint?

ChiefsCountry
08-30-2006, 03:27 PM
I think Herm is getting at is being smarter on offense. Our offense can out smart and get itself a little to cute in certain situations, ala Houston in 04.

Basileus777
08-30-2006, 03:40 PM
A good line helps too but that's not the only thing....baltimore has a good line but can't run the football to save their life.

Not true, Baltimore's line sucks. It was good back when Lewis was rushing for 2k yards, but its terrible now. The lack of a passing game doesn't help Baltimore's passing game, but back when they had a good line they managed to run the ball effectively even without a passing game.

KCChiefsFan88
08-30-2006, 06:27 PM
Why doesn't Herm follow the lead of what his mentor Tony Dungy did when he arrived in Indy.

Dungy, a conservative defense-oriented coach entered a situation where you had a team with a high scoring offense and bad defense... similar to the Chiefs.

Dungy left the offense alone and focused on his area of expertise and the area where the team needed help the most.

Calcountry
08-30-2006, 06:28 PM
Why doesn't Herm follow the lead of what his mentor Tony Dungy did when he arrived in Indy.

Dungy, a conservative defense-oriented coach entered a situation where you had a team with a high scoring offense and bad defense... similar to the Chiefs.

Dungy left the offense alone and focused on his area of expertise and the area where the team needed help the most.Herm is smarter than Dungy.

htismaqe
08-30-2006, 06:33 PM
What's getting old is listening to this shit day in and day out...

Calcountry
08-30-2006, 06:37 PM
What's getting old is listening to this shit day in and day out...Then don't fuggin listen to it.

bushmaster
08-30-2006, 07:03 PM
how many rushing attempts do you think we had last year? i'll save you the trouble-520. i think you've wasted way to much energy bitchin about an average of 4 more running plays a game.

Calcountry
08-30-2006, 07:34 PM
how many rushing attempts do you think we had last year? i'll save you the trouble-520. i think you've wasted way to much energy bitchin about an average of 4 more running plays a game.Are you talking to me? I didn't even start the phuggin thread.

I was just having some fun with it. Most of my chit is worthless on the face of it. I like poking shit in worthless threads because, it seems deep in thought, so I say something sarcastically stupid like, "Herm is smart".

Get it. If not, I don't give a phug who you are in real CP life, because you are a chicken shit for not being a smart ass straight up.

Have to go into a n00b name to give me chit.

Phug off and have a nice day.

whoman69
08-30-2006, 07:39 PM
The more I hear about Herm, the more he reminds me of a Marty Jr. type. They were talking on Mike and Mike about how everytime he's faced with 3rd and long he's going to give up and run the ball, play field position. The fact that he gave Solari a new one for taking two shots at the end zone at the end of the half shows he is way too conservative.
I think that Vermeil had the offense going in the right direction, but he had no clue about the defense. The only thing I would change about Vermeil's offense is to cut down on 3 and outs. That absolutely killed our D when that happened.

bushmaster
08-30-2006, 08:07 PM
Are you talking to me? I didn't even start the phuggin thread.

I was just having some fun with it. Most of my chit is worthless on the face of it. I like poking shit in worthless threads because, it seems deep in thought, so I say something sarcastically stupid like, "Herm is smart".

Get it. If not, I don't give a phug who you are in real CP life, because you are a chicken shit for not being a smart ass straight up.

Have to go into a n00b name to give me chit.

Phug off and have a nice day.

time to pull the string.

i wasn't talking to you.

Ultra Peanut
08-30-2006, 08:21 PM
so like we have one of the best running backs in the league and an explosive backup and I hate hearing about how we're going to run the ball down people's throats and stuff and geeze I miss Al Saunders' idiotic cutesy playcalls in crucial situations don't you agree

Skip Towne
08-30-2006, 08:27 PM
The more I hear about Herm, the more he reminds me of a Marty Jr. type. They were talking on Mike and Mike about how everytime he's faced with 3rd and long he's going to give up and run the ball, play field position. The fact that he gave Solari a new one for taking two shots at the end zone at the end of the half shows he is way too conservative.
I think that Vermeil had the offense going in the right direction, but he had no clue about the defense. The only thing I would change about Vermeil's offense is to cut down on 3 and outs. That absolutely killed our D when that happened.
Marty Jr. sounds OK to me. Marty is the most popular coach the Chiefs have ever had according to a poll taken in KC a couple of years ago.

Psyko Tek
08-30-2006, 09:02 PM
run the ball until they stop it,
and then throw deep

can I be an offensive coordinator now?

Tuckdaddy
08-30-2006, 09:06 PM
that Herm remebers that the offense is there to score points however they can. It's not there to establish the run, it's there to get in the end zone each and every posession. If we can run out the clock on the ground then do it but under no circumstance should we run on 3rd and 15 or 10 and so on.

I hope Herm doesn't change anything with the offense. We run enough and pass enough

jidar
08-30-2006, 09:39 PM
BY GOD I'VE GOT THE ****ING HAMMER COCKED AND THE BARREL IN MY MOUTH. IF THIS OFFENSE DIES I'M GOING WITH IT!!

Rausch
08-30-2006, 09:51 PM
A huge part of football is mentality.

For years now we've been a team about taking as many shots as possible on offense hoping we could open things up and blow someone out.

We were the Wladamir Klitchko's of the NFL: pretty brutal offensively but unable to stop anyone in (or after) the 4th.

Herm appears to want to make us a George Foreman: able to take 100 punches and make your 20 big swings count.

It was also Marty's philosophy, only he became completely un-tarded in the postseason...

Pasta Giant Meatball
08-30-2006, 09:55 PM
in 04 martin had 4.6 yards a carry under herm....ummm i think LJ can at least match ole man martin.

Guru
08-30-2006, 10:01 PM
A huge part of football is mentality.

For years now we've been a team about taking as many shots as possible on offense hoping we could open things up and blow someone out.

We were the Wladamir Klitchko's of the NFL: pretty brutal offensively but unable to stop anyone in (or after) the 4th.

Herm appears to want to make us a George Foreman: able to take 100 punches and make your 20 big swings count.

It was also Marty's philosophy, only he became completely un-tarded in the postseason...

Montana was the only QB he let make on-the-field decisions. Marty couldn't win a playoff game to save his life without a 4 time SB MVP.

Rausch
08-30-2006, 10:07 PM
Montana was the only QB he let make on-the-field decisions. Marty couldn't win a playoff game to save his life without a 4 time SB MVP.

I'd suddenly look like a playa' if I married Jessica Alba tomorrow.

Not that I'd have more hair, less fat, or a palpable personality...

Guru
08-30-2006, 10:11 PM
I'd suddenly look like a playa' if I married Jessica Alba tomorrow.

Not that I'd have more hair, less fat, or a palpable personality...


What's wrong with your personality now?

Rausch
08-30-2006, 10:13 PM
What's wrong with your personality now?

I've been told it's abrasive... :hmmm:

Guru
08-30-2006, 10:15 PM
I've been told it's abrasive... :hmmm:


Never!

keg in kc
08-30-2006, 10:40 PM
Of course I don't think you get the number of rushing TD's that we do without be tough. I agree, and hope you are right, in a lot of what you are saying.

If a team has a weakness, or you have a mismatch you still have to go after it.The toughness I mentioned was late in games. The one flaw with the offense that I saw, that was obvious, other than Saunders' occasionally 'cute' playcall that ended up 6 the other way/turning a game was that the offense did not have the ability to consistently run clock at the end of a game. We could not line up, knock teams off the ball and run 5 minutes off the clock to secure a win. 3 and out, here comes the defense, oh look a long drive to score, game over, whoops.

That's what needs to change...

And from what I've heard and read from camp, despite all the "we're going to martyball" cries, apparently the offense was still motioning and shifting all over the place, so apparently not much has changed in terms of scheme. It sounds like we're still planning to create and exploit matchups. That's one of the reasons I'm taking a 'wait and see' approach instead of overly worried. If I'd been hearing we were lining up in the power-I in practice, it'd be different. But we're not...

The only differences that I'm aware of is philosophical, in that Herm wants more effective running down the stretch, and Solari wants to simplify the playbook slightly by not having as wide and changing a passing playbook as Saunders had. By that, I mean that Solari is (supposedly) not going to have 200 passing plays in the book every week, or at least won't be cycling plays out on a monthly basis. He'll be profine with going back to plays that work. Whether that's good or not, only time will tell.

Oh, and the audibles...

ChiefsCountry
08-30-2006, 11:59 PM
Bascially what I am getting out of Herm is this: Go for the touchdown but don't try to be billy bad ass to get it and screw yourself out of least a field goal. Its a controlled crazy which under Saunders are offense are more crazy than controlled.

Also someone made the Dungy comparison, funny thing is Herm almost has as many playoff wins as Dungy - 2 for Herm 3 for Dungy, since Dungy has took over the Colts. Ironically those 3 are against us and the Donks.

macdawg
08-31-2006, 12:15 AM
"Why is it suddenly automatically ineffective to run the ball a lot?"

because our success has been based on balance, attacking ALL PARTS of the field, and THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE!

If we get too run heavy we will lose the element of surprise that has made this offense so kick ass.

If it ain't broke........

greg63
08-31-2006, 12:18 AM
I've been told it's abrasive... :hmmm:


But, you’re such a warm and sensitive individual. :D