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View Full Version : Has Mike Solari been given too much credit?


milkman
09-16-2006, 09:33 AM
When you look at the O-Line over the last 5 seasons, the only player he can really be given credit for developing is Brian Waters.

Willie Roaf and Will Shields were already established Pro Bowlers before he was hired as the O-Line coach in '97.

Casey Wiegman was a solid player with Chicago before he signed as a FA with KC, and his percieved improvement since joining KC seems more like a product of the system, and the fact that he lines up between two Pro Bowlers.

John Wellbourne also was an established vet before coming to KC, and while he did struggle in '04, and his play improved in '05, that could well be attributed to the fact that he battled health issues in '04.

Looking at the young guys, other than Waters, who has he developed?

I wonder if Solari has bought into his own hype.

Rather than playing kids at one position and letting them develop, he has moved kids from position to position, and as result, they've struggled
terribly.

Jordan Black looked like a kid that could develop at guard, but constant position switching, and putting him at tackle, where his lack of foot speed is a liability, may well have ruined him.

Svitek's development seems to have been derailed by moving him back and forth at the tackle positions.

And then I look at John Tait, who seems to have really grown in Chicago.

Mr. Kotter
09-16-2006, 09:43 AM
It's way too early to tell. I suspect unless he gets the O on track this year, his stint as OC will be short.

He definitely deserves at least some credit or his work on the Oline. While he's been fortunate, you don't have the success he's had simply being lucky. I agree with you comments about Black. Hopefully we can put him back at G where he belongs. As for Svitek, there is an adjustment between playing RT and LT....but he should be able to play both. He is a Standford grad, afterall; coupled with his athletic ability, he just needs more reps....afterall he's only been on the OL for 16 months or so now.

burt
09-16-2006, 09:53 AM
'Has Mike Solari been given too much credit?"
um.....yeah....

milkman
09-16-2006, 09:53 AM
I am not even thinking about his start as the OC.

I am just looking at this line, and wondering about the players that have been developed, and the ones that we seem to have missed on.

Brett Williams?
Jeremy Parquet?

Again, other than Waters, who can he be given credit for?

morphius
09-16-2006, 10:03 AM
I have been thinking some of the same things. I think he may be great at designing run plays, but I'm not sure how good of a position coach he was. Bober was once a starter, now you would be better sticking mcfarlane figure in his place. Black really hasn't done muc either.

I judged DV's D coaches on the fact that only one player actually improved, Kawika. Everyone else either got worse, or stayed the same.

Deberg_1990
09-16-2006, 10:04 AM
Again, other than Waters, who can he be given credit for?

John Tait? Casey Weigman? Even those migt be streches....

milkman
09-16-2006, 10:07 AM
John Tait? Casey Weigman? Even those migt be streches....

Like I said in the original post, Weigman's percieved improvement is more likely the product of the system, and the players surrounding him, while Tait seems to have really developed after he left for the Bears.

stevieray
09-16-2006, 10:24 AM
If you can't give him the credit, you can't give him the blame.

Solari can only work with the players he has been given.

Coach
09-16-2006, 10:24 AM
When was Solari's first stint as a KC O-Line coach?

milkman
09-16-2006, 10:34 AM
If you can't give him the credit, you can't give him the blame.

Solari can only work with the players he has been given.

Huh?

I gave him credit for the development of Waters.

I blame him for the lack of development of others.

milkman
09-16-2006, 10:37 AM
When was Solari's first stint as a KC O-Line coach?

His first, and only, stint as with KC started in '97, and came to an end when he was promoted to OC this season.

http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/images/E40A04D156744A9283428EABB3B55510.JPG?

runnercyclist
09-16-2006, 10:49 AM
No. Did he deserve to be OC? Maybe

stevieray
09-16-2006, 10:50 AM
Huh?

I gave him credit for the development of Waters.

I blame him for the lack of development of others.

Again, he can only work with what he has been given....it's like you are blaming him for having probowlers....it's still up to him to develop schemes to play to every olinemans strengths.

milkman
09-16-2006, 10:55 AM
Again, he can only work with what he has been given....it's like you are blaming him for having probowlers....it's still up to him to develop schemes to play to every olinemans strengths.

I am talking about player development.

Yes, he did a good job with the scheme, but he hasn't developed any kids, and may well have stunted the development of Black.

He's had a few kids to work with, and thus far, he has nothing to show.

stevieray
09-16-2006, 11:01 AM
I am talking about player development.

Yes, he did a good job with the scheme, but he hasn't developed any kids, and may well have stunted the development of Black.

He's had a few kids to work with, and thus far, he has nothing to show.


stunted Black? Injuries have had a huge impact on where he has played, though I agree the guy is prolly a good guard. kind of hard to develop when you already have great players at said positions.

I think Sampson and Svitek will be the cure that ails you.

cdcox
09-16-2006, 11:03 AM
His offensive lines have always been good over a 9 year period. You have to give him some credit there. The fact that he devised a scheme that took a journeyman like Wiegman and made him a pro-bowl contender should go into his plus column. Tait struggled at LT before Tait arrived, but he was dominant at RT. A PH sweep to the the right was money in '03, and it was largely due to Tait's blocking. Chicago didn't give hime $35M because he sucked.

If we look realistically at this year, here is the depth chart at tackle.

Roaf (retired)
Welbourn (suspended/retired)
Turley
Sampson (injured)
Black
Svitek

So we started last week with what were supposed to be the 3rd and 5th best tackles on the team. We don't know how Svitek will pan out yet. This was supposed to be another development year for him.

milkman
09-16-2006, 11:06 AM
stunted Black? Injuries have had a huge impact on where he has played, though I agree the guy is prolly a good guard. kind of hard to develop when you already have great players at said positions.

I think Sampson and Svitek will be the cure that ails you.

The thing is, I'm not actually trying to assign any blame, I am just questioning what he has acomplished.

I hope, and think, that you may be right with Svitek, but I worry that Sampson will never be all that good because of his build.

cdcox
09-16-2006, 11:10 AM
Ideally you don't move youngsters around to a bunch of different positions. Ideally, Sampson is a RT, Black is a G, and Svitek is a LT. We are not in an ideal situation. Who would you start at RT once Sampson is injured?

Truthfully, Sampson has me worried. He seems to be one of those players who is always injured. Guys like that seldom become reliable.

milkman
09-16-2006, 11:16 AM
His offensive lines have always been good over a 9 year period. You have to give him some credit there. The fact that he devised a scheme that took a journeyman like Wiegman and made him a pro-bowl contender should go into his plus column. Tait struggled at LT before Tait arrived, but he was dominant at RT. A PH sweep to the the right was money in '03, and it was largely due to Tait's blocking. Chicago didn't give hime $35M because he sucked.

If we look realistically at this year, here is the depth chart at tackle.

Roaf (retired)
Welbourn (suspended/retired)
Turley
Sampson (injured)
Black
Svitek

So we started last week with what were supposed to be the 3rd and 5th best tackles on the team. We don't know how Svitek will pan out yet. This was supposed to be another development year for him.

I'll say it again, he has done a good job with the scheme, but what player has he developed?

Coogs
09-16-2006, 11:37 AM
I'll say it again, he has done a good job with the scheme, but what player has he developed?

I have not read this thread yet, but I posted darn near the same thing at some point last football season and was flamed pretty hard. FWIW, I agree with you. Sounds a whole lot like Gun too, doesn't it? Give each of these guys pro-bowlers or HOF'ers and they are geniuses. Without the talent though, it makes you wonder if they know what they are doing or not.

stevieray
09-16-2006, 11:39 AM
Without the talent though, it makes you wonder if they know what they are doing or not.


so, they are expected to succeed without talented players?

Brock
09-16-2006, 11:39 AM
Tait isn't any better in Chicago than he was in KC. He's certainly adequate to what they ask him to do, but I don't think KC's offense would have been what it was if the Chiefs had put him at LT.

SNR
09-16-2006, 11:41 AM
I'll say it again, he has done a good job with the scheme, but what player has he developed?I made this point earlier. The only thing we've given him to work with are late round prospects. Brett Williams was the highest drafted offensive lineman since John Tait, and that was the 4th round.

I know, yadda yadda, the draft is a crapshoot and all that. But there's a reason why guys go early and some guys go late, and it has to do with talent. If we're giving him nothing but projects to work with like Svitek and Sampson, it's no wonder we haven't developed anyone decent in the past few years.

Skip Towne
09-16-2006, 11:43 AM
Huh?

I gave him credit for the development of Waters.

I blame him for the lack of development of others.
You can't do that. :p

Coogs
09-16-2006, 11:44 AM
so, they are expected to succeed without talented players?

To an extent, yes. That is their job. Can yau say you have seen improvement from any offensive linemen here other than what Milkman has mentioned? Can you name one defensive player other than Mitchell that has vastley improved under Gun's watch?

SNR
09-16-2006, 11:47 AM
To an extent, yes. That is their job. Can yau say you have seen improvement from any offensive linemen here other than what Milkman has mentioned? Can you name one defensive player other than Mitchell that has vastley improved under Gun's watch?Jared Allen, Derrick Johnson, Keyaron Fox, Benny Sapp, and to some extent Rich Scanlon

Skip Towne
09-16-2006, 11:47 AM
Solari lost track of the down and distance deep in the Bengals territory. What kind of dolt does that?

Coogs
09-16-2006, 11:50 AM
Jared Allen, Derrick Johnson, Keyaron Fox, Benny Sapp, and to some extent Rich Scanlon

I really can't say that any one of those guys is any better than they were the first game I was them play in. And I mean that seriously. Allen could rush the passer from day one. DJ is still not the playmaker he was supposed to be. Fox, he is still a backup who can't unseat Bell. Sapp is our 4th CB after three guys we brought in from other teams. And Scanlon was Superman from day one. :D

stevieray
09-16-2006, 11:57 AM
To an extent, yes. That is their job. Can yau say you have seen improvement from any offensive linemen here other than what Milkman has mentioned? Can you name one defensive player other than Mitchell that has vastley improved under Gun's watch?

really...so their job is too take crappy players and turn them into probowlers? disagree..as short as a NFL career is, you've either got it, or you don't. Considering the injuries, and the loss of roaf and Welbourne last year, the production of LJ is pretty awesome. Solari was forced to juggle the line, and came through.

Vastly improved? Waht about Key Fox? Even so, that says more about roster than it does Gun. Exactly why we brought in Surtain, Knight and Law. DJ, Allen, Hali, Pollard and Page are a good foundation.

The biggest blunder lies with the scouts who direct us to our DT's. I think most here would agree that one factor is the main problem.

ChiefsLV
09-16-2006, 12:15 PM
The thing is, I'm not actually trying to assign any blame, I am just questioning what he has acomplished.

If you aren't assigning any blame, then why question the guy's ability to perform what was probably his most important job function? Furthermore, with the performance of the Chiefs offensive line over the past four years, are you seriously taking shots at Solari for his OL, even if it is, as you say, only the development of the players you are questioning?

I'll say it again, he has done a good job with the scheme, but what player has he developed?

Brian Waters, John Tait turned into a pretty good right tackle, Casey Weigemann wasn't totally polished when we got him. Roaf and Shields played at consistently high levels under him.

Other players he had a positive impact on who weren't exactly all-pros for us include Marcus Spears and Victor Riley.

You can't expect him to turn every undrafted TE into a pro bowl lineman. Some players work out, some don't. We haven't exactly had stellar drafts the past 4 to 5 years.

Chiefnj
09-16-2006, 12:28 PM
It's pretty tough to judge which coordinators are good at developing players. No doubt Solari helped design a great running game with Saunders. As far as development it seems like the Chiefs were able to develop skills position players better - Kennison, Hall, Blalock, Parker. Arguably they got the most out of Boerigter that one year.

Off the top of my head I can't think of many teams or positions coaches that takes consistently develops players at specific positions. Years ago San Fran did a great job with QB's, Denver does great with RB's because of the OL development. Overall the Eagles do a good job with DB's. I'm not sure how much is the player, the system itself or development.

At one point Solari did well with Waters, Tait and even Riley to a degree. The latest crop doesn't look that good, then again they were late picks.

Mr. Laz
09-16-2006, 12:30 PM
i'll tell ya at the end of the year.

SNR
09-16-2006, 12:37 PM
I really can't say that any one of those guys is any better than they were the first game I was them play in. And I mean that seriously. Allen could rush the passer from day one. DJ is still not the playmaker he was supposed to be. Fox, he is still a backup who can't unseat Bell. Sapp is our 4th CB after three guys we brought in from other teams. And Scanlon was Superman from day one. :DI really gotta disagree with you. DJ is our best play-making LB. He's also our best tackling LB. I think he's at the level most of us expected him to be at this year, and he's only going to get better

keg in kc
09-16-2006, 12:57 PM
Weigmann was not "solid" in Chicago, he only played when all-world Kreutz got injured, and most of the comments from the Bears fans we got when he was signed were along the lines of "he's a good guy but too small to play". He's turned into an all-pro calibre center here, although he's not gotten any awards. Now, he did and does have Waters on one side and Shields on the other, but even so, he's been very, very good, doing things very few other centers in the league could do in terms of mobility, and he's been the cement holding the unit together making the line calls for years. He's way, way, way more here than he ever was in Chicago, in other words...

And regardless of the talent of the players he had to work with, the fact is that Solari utilized and emphasized their strengths and had them playing together as arguably the best unit in the league for several years. He deserves credit for that.

We'll see what happens this year and down the road, although he's no longer the O-line coach. That's John Matsko's job now.

B_Ambuehl
09-16-2006, 01:07 PM
The same could be said of any position coach in the NFL. Is Krumrie over-rated? What defensive line did he coach last year? Buffalo right. Where did they rank in rush yardage?

Coaches and what and how they teach skills have very little to do with what goes on in this league. Ask players and they'll tell you they're overcoached and it's annoying as hell.

tk13
09-16-2006, 01:19 PM
I think Solari has done a great job. He's helped design the best rushing attack in football. He's done so well, that we don't even try to address the offensive line through even medium-tier FA's or high draft picks. Even Roaf and Shields just cost us 3rd round picks. Tait was really our only high OL draft pick. Waters was a total project, Wiegmann was a backup who we turned into a Pro Bowl caliber player. Even Roaf was supposed to be washed up when we traded for him. Tait got better, and even Shields supposedly had his best years here around 03-04. We had some good linemen, but I think every single one of them improved too.

jspchief
09-16-2006, 01:40 PM
One of the players said this off-season that Solari wasn't really the type of coach to "teach" young players. Basically made it sound like he was more of an Xs and Os guy than the type to develop players.

I remember noticing that comment at the time and thinking about the lack of development of our youngs guys.

milkman
09-16-2006, 02:52 PM
One of the players said this off-season that Solari wasn't really the type of coach to "teach" young players. Basically made it sound like he was more of an Xs and Os guy than the type to develop players.

I remember noticing that comment at the time and thinking about the lack of development of our youngs guys.

I remember that comment, which leads me to another thought.

As a rookie OC, he might struggle early, but because he is an Xs and Os guy, he should learn and adjust in time.

Skip Towne
09-16-2006, 03:23 PM
I remember that comment, which leads me to another thought.

As a rookie OC, he might struggle early, but because he is an Xs and Os guy, he should learn and adjust in time.
That's all well and good but I'm 61. I don't have much time.

ArrowheadHawk
09-16-2006, 03:29 PM
lets give him more than one game as OC

chiefsfan1963
09-16-2006, 04:13 PM
CP as usual blew it! Instead of promoting AS to HC he brings in Herm and promotes Solari to OC. You might promote him if AS is the HC. At least you have a HC who can back him up when he slips.

KCChiefsFan88
09-16-2006, 04:40 PM
You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

The Chiefs have not drafted an offensive lineman in the first three rounds of the draft since 1999. It is tough to ask a coach, no matter how talented they are to try to develop middle to lower round draft picks (including guys who didn't even play offensive line in college like Svitek) into starting-caliber NFL offensive-linemen.

One of the excuses we've heard for why the defense has struggled is because of the fact, until recently it was void of first/high round draft picks. The same thing applies to the offensive line (and the offense as a whole).

Brian Waters was a great success story, but trying to duplicate that process with the same success is going up against long odds.

milkman
09-16-2006, 05:54 PM
lets give him more than one game as OC

I am not talking about his one game at OC.

I am talking about the position that the O-Line now finds itself in, and Solari's contribution to the development of young players in his time as the position coach.

milkman
09-16-2006, 05:55 PM
You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

The Chiefs have not drafted an offensive lineman in the first three rounds of the draft since 1999. It is tough to ask a coach, no matter how talented they are to try to develop middle to lower round draft picks (including guys who didn't even play offensive line in college like Svitek) into starting-caliber NFL offensive-linemen.

One of the excuses we've heard for why the defense has struggled is because of the fact, until recently it was void of first/high round draft picks. The same thing applies to the offensive line (and the offense as a whole).

Brian Waters was a great success story, but trying to duplicate that process with the same success is going up against long odds.

You may be right, but its seems that the Chiefs have done pretty well in the past with late round picks, as well.

keg in kc
09-16-2006, 07:19 PM
You may be right, but its seems that the Chiefs have done pretty well in the past with late round picks, as well.Other than Szott, who?

milkman
09-16-2006, 07:34 PM
Other than Szott, who?

My memory is failing me, but I thought there were two guys that were mid to low round picks.

Szott was one of them, but after Grunhard, Shields and Alt, along with Szott, I can't remember who the 5th starter was.

keg in kc
09-16-2006, 07:38 PM
My memory is failing me, but I thought there were two guys that were mid to low round picks.

Szott was one of them, but after Grunhard, Shields and Alt, along with Szott, I can't remember who the 5th starter was.Point being, what's the percentage of late-round o-line picks that have really paid off for us, whether it's just Szott or Szott and someone else...

Grunny was, what a 2nd? Alt a 1st? Shields a 3rd? Szott's the exception, not the rule.

Coogs
09-16-2006, 08:35 PM
really...so their job is too take crappy players and turn them into probowlers?

Your putting words in my mouth now. Probowlers? NO! Servicable NFL players? YES! If we keep crappy players around, who's takes the credit or blame for that?

I'm just agreeing with Milkman on his post.

I've been on record for several months now saying we should have cleaned house when DV went out the door. I stand by that yet. I'm just agreeing with Milkman.

It is just my opinion. Nothing worth getting worked up about.

Mecca
09-16-2006, 08:42 PM
Point being, what's the percentage of late-round o-line picks that have really paid off for us, whether it's just Szott or Szott and someone else...

Grunny was, what a 2nd? Alt a 1st? Shields a 3rd? Szott's the exception, not the rule.

This team also put 1st round picks into...Jenkins, Riley and Tait did any of them really get the Chiefs what they should have gotten for using a 1st rounder on them?

keg in kc
09-16-2006, 08:59 PM
This team also put 1st round picks into...Jenkins, Riley and Tait did any of them really get the Chiefs what they should have gotten for using a 1st rounder on them?You could say that for probably 80% of our draft picks for the past 10 years. Reason #1 why we haven't been better than we have.

GoTrav
09-16-2006, 09:12 PM
When you look at the O-Line over the last 5 seasons, the only player he can really be given credit for developing is Brian Waters.

Willie Roaf and Will Shields were already established Pro Bowlers before he was hired as the O-Line coach in '97.

Casey Wiegman was a solid player with Chicago before he signed as a FA with KC, and his percieved improvement since joining KC seems more like a product of the system, and the fact that he lines up between two Pro Bowlers.

John Wellbourne also was an established vet before coming to KC, and while he did struggle in '04, and his play improved in '05, that could well be attributed to the fact that he battled health issues in '04.

Looking at the young guys, other than Waters, who has he developed?

I wonder if Solari has bought into his own hype.

Rather than playing kids at one position and letting them develop, he has moved kids from position to position, and as result, they've struggled
terribly.

Jordan Black looked like a kid that could develop at guard, but constant position switching, and putting him at tackle, where his lack of foot speed is a liability, may well have ruined him.

Svitek's development seems to have been derailed by moving him back and forth at the tackle positions.

And then I look at John Tait, who seems to have really grown in Chicago.

I'm trying to think of anyone we've really developed...

Halfcan
09-16-2006, 09:40 PM
Herm will probably take Mike with him to his next team at the end of the year.

greg63
09-16-2006, 09:46 PM
Herm will probably take Mike with him to his next team at the end of the year.
LMAO
You mean Herm will last that long?

Halfcan
09-16-2006, 09:55 PM
LMAO
You mean Herm will last that long?
lol
Yeah but Mike won't if the dumbf#ck can't figure out when it is third and long.

milkman
09-16-2006, 09:58 PM
Herm will probably take Mike with him to his next team at the end of the year.

If you honestly believe that Hermie won't be here until Carl walks out the door in 4 years, assuming he doesn't re-up for more, then I have some prime property in Florida to sell you.

grandllama
09-16-2006, 10:09 PM
Without reading this entire thread who in the hell has ever given Solari credit other than Herm and Carl?

SNR
09-16-2006, 11:00 PM
You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

The Chiefs have not drafted an offensive lineman in the first three rounds of the draft since 1999. It is tough to ask a coach, no matter how talented they are to try to develop middle to lower round draft picks (including guys who didn't even play offensive line in college like Svitek) into starting-caliber NFL offensive-linemen.

One of the excuses we've heard for why the defense has struggled is because of the fact, until recently it was void of first/high round draft picks. The same thing applies to the offensive line (and the offense as a whole).

Brian Waters was a great success story, but trying to duplicate that process with the same success is going up against long odds.REPOST!

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3420117#post3420117

SNR
09-16-2006, 11:00 PM
Point being, what's the percentage of late-round o-line picks that have really paid off for us, whether it's just Szott or Szott and someone else...

Grunny was, what a 2nd? Alt a 1st? Shields a 3rd? Szott's the exception, not the rule.REPOST!

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3420117#post3420117

SNR
09-16-2006, 11:01 PM
I just want me some pie, you pompous airbags!

keg in kc
09-16-2006, 11:48 PM
REPOST!

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3420117#post3420117How's that a repost. Nothing I said had anything to do with that post. .

SNR
09-17-2006, 12:57 AM
How's that a repost. Nothing I said had anything to do with that post. .The Chiefs' tendency to draft lots of later round prospects at OL and succeed on few of them.